Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: tpe on Jan 24, 2006, 06:24 PM
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gjz24 brought up this question regarding a troubling part of the last meeting of Ennis and Jack. Let me paraphrase this passage from the movie (which, btw, is totally absent from the story):
Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...
Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...
Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
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No , it's not Jack's fault but Ennis does think this to a degree I think at that point.
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No , it's not Jack's fault but Ennis does think this to a degree I think at that point.
Yes, Toadily, to what degree is a bit puzzling. Although Ennis may refer here to his poverty, I think his main accusation is that Jack, to some degree, is to blame for his failed marriage and his inability to love anybody else with true depth and passion. It is almost as if Ennis was blaming Jack for his (Ennis) being in love with him (jack)!!!!
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I think so too, you know how when you are in denial you blame everyone else? It's like what he is doing here. And he is also crying out to Jack for help like "hey you are why I am broke and lost and so please understand why I can't get away"
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Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J
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I think so too, you know how when you are in denial you blame everyone else? It's like what he is doing here. And he is also crying out to Jack for help like "hey you are why I am broke and lost and so please understand why I can't get away"
So you do agree that even at that late point, Ennis was still in denial that he himself is equally to blame for his present misery? He must have realized Jack's point that he squandered an opportunity for a 'sweet life'. So I guess a self defence mechanism would be to deny one's culpabililty and blame the other for everything...
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I don't think that Ennis can blame Jack for being the way he is. Love goes two-ways in a relationship- I don't think Ennis meant what he said very literal, it was just an odd way of him to express how Jack's love totally changed his life, even if not for the best. I thought it was almost adorable...in an interesting way; Ennis was indirectly saying that his love for Jack was so deep that it blew him off his feet and messed up his entire life. If only situations and times were different, this wouldn't have been a negative thing, but in their very homophobic atmosphere it never could have worked.
Maybe what Ennis said to try to wound Jack came up in the heat of the moment, and he was taking his frustrations out on Jack because he just wanted to be with him. Ennis seems to always have an excuse or something/one to blame, and this was just a way for Ennis to do that- blame Jack. To me, it was heart-crushingly romantic. An amazing, emotion filled scene.
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Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J
j, this is an interesting point of view. But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...
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I don't think that Ennis can blame Jack for being the way he is. Love goes two-ways in a relationship- I don't think Ennis meant what he said very literal, it was just an odd way of him to express how Jack's love totally changed his life, even if not for the best. I thought it was almost adorable...in an interesting way; Ennis was indirectly saying that his love for Jack was so deep that it blew him off his feet and messed up his entire life. If only situations and times were different, this wouldn't have been a negative thing, but in their very homophobic atmosphere it never could have worked.
Maybe what Ennis said to try to wound Jack came up in the heat of the moment, and he was taking his frustrations out on Jack because he just wanted to be with him. Ennis seems to always have an excuse or something/one to blame, and this was just a way for Ennis to do that- blame Jack. To me, it was heart-crushingly romantic. An amazing, emotion filled scene.
jackchrisopher27, I highlighted the comment because I think it contains more than a grain of truth to it. Jack did seem to try to reach out to Ennis after this, as opposed to becoming totally angry. In a way, it is because Jack realized that HE DID MATTER A GREAT DEAL IN ENNIS' LIFE.
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I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J
j, this is an interesting point of view. But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...
Yes. I feel that Ennis would have stayed *straight* most likely if he had not met Jack.
I will tell you that a LOT of older people think that GAY people are made not born that way<sigh>
Poor Ennis. : (
J
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I think so too, you know how when you are in denial you blame everyone else? It's like what he is doing here. And he is also crying out to Jack for help like "hey you are why I am broke and lost and so please understand why I can't get away"
So you do agree that even at that late point, Ennis was still in denial that he himself is equally to blame for his present misery? He must have realized Jack's point that he squandered an opportunity for a 'sweet life'. So I guess a self defence mechanism would be to deny one's culpabililty and blame the other for everything...
Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
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Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?
J
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Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?
J
I think the way Proulx wrote the story we are suppose to believe Ennis was correct in thinking it was the tire iron, a murder. And she wrote the story to address homophobia.
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Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?
J
I think the way Proulx wrote the story we are suppose to believe Ennis was correct in thinking it was the tire iron, a murder. And she wrote the story to address homophobia.
I'm confused. Lureen told Ennis that Jack died because of the bizarre accident. What exactly did she say?I remember that he supposedly was changing a tire and thecap went flying into his chest.Tell me about the tire iron, please.
Thanks
J
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Yes I think he went into his denial points, saying things like they have stuff in Mexico for'
"boys like you", etc. I think the only thing that could jolt Ennis out of denial was Jack actually dying like he did.
You think Jack DIED from the *accident* instead of being murdered?
J
I think the way Proulx wrote the story we are suppose to believe Ennis was correct in thinking it was the tire iron, a murder. And she wrote the story to address homophobia.
I'm confused. Lureen told Ennis that Jack died because of the bizarre accident. What exactly did she say?I remember that he supposedly was changing a tire and thecap went flying into his chest.Tell me about the tire iron, please.
Thanks
J
In the short story Ennis equates the tire iron to JAck getting killed by an angry homophobic mob. Thus his flash scene of that being how Jack was killed.
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"Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood."
In the movie, you see what Ennis is thinking instead.
From the short story:
"No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron."
Also from the story, when Ennis visits Jack's parents:
"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."
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In the short story Ennis equates the tire iron to JAck getting killed by an angry homophobic mob. Thus his flash scene of that being how Jack was killed.
There is no way in my thinking that Jack died from this bizarre accident. Interesting how we all hav different takes on things.
J
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"Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood."
In the movie, you see what Ennis is thinking instead.
From the short story:
"No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron."
Also from the story, when Ennis visits Jack's parents:
"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."
I didn't come away from the movie thinking this at all. I felt the parents REALLY knew that their son ws murdered not had diedfrom this weird accident.
Thanks for your reply.
J
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Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."
I took this to mean that he KNEW Jack was murdered, but he wanted to BELIEVE it was an accident. So in some part his grief was due to having to "stand" knowing Jack was murdered, probably while he (Jack) was searching for a temporary substitute for Ennis. That would tie into his "Jack, I swear..." which I believe meant many, many things--all his regrets, all the unexpressed love, the repression, the rejections of Jack--clearly more than he was able to verbalize.
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To come away with a slightly different understanding of what Ennis meant, I feel that the was not blaming Jack for his being gay when he said, "It's because of you..." I think what he was saying was, "It's because of the way I feel about you... I don't think he is blaming Jack per se, but blaming his feelings for Jack.
The Mexico thing wouldn't have hurt him so, if it weren't about his love for Jack.
Jim
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Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...
Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...
Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
I think Ennis is reacting to Jack's painful words ("I wish I knew how to quit you"). He's lashing out, but he's also being completely truthful, maybe for the first time in their relationship. In their own individual way, each of them is telling the other that they are hopelessly in love and can't let go, no matter how difficult the circumstances. Jack can't quit Ennis, and Ennis has given up all hopes for a decent life for Jack's sake. Jeez, this is sad.
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Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."
I do also think this relates more to "the things he didn't know about jack" than to his death per se.
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It is very interesting topic. Some topics make me think for days before I could even respond and this is one of them.
The way I read it and how I feel is not to read too much bewteen the line.
Remember Ennis was emotional. When one is deeply emotional, any hurtful thing can come out. Ennis's response was largely his frastration with his life - no money, no nothing and his only Jack is far away. If Ennis had a chance, I am sure he would apologize to Jack for saying this (at least I hope).
Jack definitely is not the reason of his misery. Jack loves him dearly. What troubles has Jack brought him? Did Ennis think his love with Jack is a burden? I don't think so.
The only time we see true Ennis is when he is with Jack. Just my two cents.
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Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."
I do also think this relates more to "the things he didn't know about jack" than to his death per se.
I didn't think of that one. I'm guessing that like "Jack, I swear..." it means many things.
camom
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"You are the reason I am like this." Ennis is torn between what he knows he wants and what he thinks he can actually have. When Ennis says "leave me be" he knows that if Jack were not in his life he could live alone and not deal with these emotions he cannot even express or describe without fear of public retribution. I try not to superimpose our contemporary terms of gay or homosexual onto BBM. Ennis and Jack did not use these terms...we have to try to think of what is in their minds and life experiences and accept it for what it is..not our wish for what we want for them. I know that is very difficult. BMM is such great art. Thanks for the great thread.
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gjz24 brought up this question regarding a troubling part of the last meeting of Ennis and Jack. Let me paraphrase this passage from the movie (which, btw, is totally absent from the story):
Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...
Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...
Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
Besides the obvious implication about his financial status, I thought it was Ennis' way of expressing "I wish I knew how to quit you." There is a tone of accusation when he says "Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be?" Each is so in love with the other, even to their own detriment. He does seem to blame Jack, not necessarily for "turning him gay" but more for simply being the person that he loves so dearly. When we have an obsession, I think it's easier to blame that object for being so desirous to us rather than admit weakness on our part.
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It's human nature to blame the object of your affection. It must be somebody elses fault...
"You witch, you cast a spell on me!"
"You made me love you" (I didn't want to do it, ha! more like: you woke me up to do it)
"It's because of you..."
It all comes from within. ...because each is so completely consummately in love with the other that neither can accept responsibility for his own emotions.
and all they really want to do is love each other.
Jim
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Thank Tpe for bring my question here, and for all the replies. I am thinking about this for a long time...Form the words I can tell Ennis felt a little bit resentment and more grievance. Ennis cannot have a normal life, cannot love others anymore, because Jack is in his heart. He already tried everything he can do to keep their love. even though they never really expressed the love. even though Jack think what Ennis have done is not enough. But because of the extreme fear from Ennis, what he can reach is keep the love secret. He felt frustrated when he realized that he can do nothing about their love, and he felt grieved that Jack cannot feel his love, and he felt sorry for himself that he cannot make Jack know he love him. That is why he broke out in tear and said" because of you, I am nobody,nowhere." What he really wanna say is " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch.". Oh, it is so so sad.
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i agree with you... that was the Ennis way to confirm his eternal, unconditioned love to Jack. The words he used could appear.. offensive... or ingrates... but thats words have the same meant of his fists leaving for the first time Brokeback Mountain twenty years before... they exprime the frustration to cant be able to give the love he would give and to cant live withou Jack!
baci
coguaro
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They weere two people that meet by chance on a job herding sheep. If it were someone else, not Jack Twist, we would not have this story. Jack and Ennis have a chemistry that makes them doomed (?) to fall in love. It is not because of Jack that Ennis is what he is, it is the primal attraction for each other that is why they both are what they are. It is because Ennis is ALSO attracted to Jack as much as Jack is attracted to Ennis.
I think there is someone for everyone out there whether they are straight or not that we could have a realtionship like Jack's and Ennis's. The end might be different for each one of us.
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They weere two people that meet by chance on a job herding sheep. If it were someone else, not Jack Twist, we would not have this story. Jack and Ennis have a chemistry that makes them doomed (?) to fall in love. It is not because of Jack that Ennis is what he is, it is the primal attraction for each other that is why they both are what they are. It is because Ennis is ALSO attracted to Jack as much as Jack is attracted to Ennis.
I think there is someone for everyone out there whether they are straight or not that we could have a realtionship like Jack's and Ennis's. The end might be different for each one of us.
Talk about chemistry...
From the short story..."His shaking hand grazed Ennis's hand, electrical current snapped between them. "
I mean... like Wow!
Jim
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This is a very interesting thread indeed.
Ennis is not accusing Jack of his misfortune. He is telling him what a terrible failure he is and how helpless he is in that he doesn't know how to deal with the situation in which he finds himself.
You see, Ennis is homosexual; that is how he was born and that is what he will always be. But his unbringing, religious, social and other, and in the context of where he lived and worked, would have none of it. He would repress who he was all his life and would do what was expected of him to the best of his capabilities. But that was not how it was to be.
You see, by some strange coincidence, he found himself on BBM in 1963 with Jack Twist and everything changed. All the conditions were met in order that his innate true self be expressed. He connected with Jack and their bond was one that happens rarely and it influenced his life forever afterwards.
When he decided to continue his life with Alma, and after, it was a disaster. He denied himself a life with the only person that ever meant anything to him, and that, for all the wrong reasons. I am sure he was continually haunted by Jack every day of his miserable existence, and that, prevented him from going anywhere. The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...
Jack and Ennis saw each other on rare occasions and then, only for brief encounters. Have you ever thought of the times in between? What do you think it was like for Ennis to come down from the mountain after a few days with Jack and return to his everday life? Frankly, I don't kow how he did it. I can understand that he felt he was a failure.
So you see, he's saying how he doesn't know how to take control of a disastrous situation.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Your thoughts...
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gjz24 brought up this question regarding a troubling part of the last meeting of Ennis and Jack. Let me paraphrase this passage from the movie (which, btw, is totally absent from the story):
Jack: I wish I knew how to quit you...
Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...
Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
At this point Ennis felt his life had been a failure because he had not played by the rules. I think he was lashing out at Jack because of what Jack represented...those desires Ennis had to love another man. Remember the gruesome scene he witnessed as a boy...he was scarred by that and on many levels I think believed he was being punished. Jack represented all those things to him because he actually did dare to love Jack.
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This is a very interesting thread indeed.
Ennis is not accusing Jack of his misfortune. He is telling him what a terrible failure he is and how helpless he is in that he doesn't know how to deal with the situation in which he finds himself.
You see, Ennis is homosexual; that is how he was born and that is what he will always be. But his unbringing, religious, social and other, and in the context of where he lived and worked, would have none of it. He would repress who he was all his life and would do what was expected of him to the best of his capabilities. But that was not how it was to be.
You see, by some strange coincidence, he found himself on BBM in 1963 with Jack Twist and everything changed. All the conditions were met in order that his innate true self be expressed. He connected with Jack and their bond was one that happens rarely and it influenced his life forever afterwards.
When he decided to continue his life with Alma, and after, it was a disaster. He denied himself a life with the only person that ever meant anything to him, and that, for all the wrong reasons. I am sure he was continually haunted by Jack every day of his miserable existence, and that, prevented him from going anywhere. The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...
Jack and Ennis saw each other on rare occasions and then, only for brief encounters. Have you ever thought of the times in between? What do you think it was like for Ennis to come down from the mountain after a few days with Jack and return to his everday life? Frankly, I don't kow how he did it. I can understand that he felt he was a failure.
So you see, he's saying how he doesn't know how to take control of a disastrous situation.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Your thoughts...
There more than a grain of truth in what you say. I do think Jack was THE MEANING in Ennis' life. That was how he got thru most of the 20 years without remarrying and not fooling around with others. Two or more shared trips to Brokeback Mountain with Jack each year was enough to sustain him. Indeed, as Jack said: 'I'm not like you...'
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This is a very interesting thread indeed.
Ennis is not accusing Jack of his misfortune. He is telling him what a terrible failure he is and how helpless he is in that he doesn't know how to deal with the situation in which he finds himself.
You see, Ennis is homosexual; that is how he was born and that is what he will always be. But his unbringing, religious, social and other, and in the context of where he lived and worked, would have none of it. He would repress who he was all his life and would do what was expected of him to the best of his capabilities. But that was not how it was to be.
You see, by some strange coincidence, he found himself on BBM in 1963 with Jack Twist and everything changed. All the conditions were met in order that his innate true self be expressed. He connected with Jack and their bond was one that happens rarely and it influenced his life forever afterwards.
When he decided to continue his life with Alma, and after, it was a disaster. He denied himself a life with the only person that ever meant anything to him, and that, for all the wrong reasons. I am sure he was continually haunted by Jack every day of his miserable existence, and that, prevented him from going anywhere. The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...
Jack and Ennis saw each other on rare occasions and then, only for brief encounters. Have you ever thought of the times in between? What do you think it was like for Ennis to come down from the mountain after a few days with Jack and return to his everday life? Frankly, I don't kow how he did it. I can understand that he felt he was a failure.
So you see, he's saying how he doesn't know how to take control of a disastrous situation.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
Your thoughts...
There more than a grain of truth in what you say. I do think Jack was THE MEANING in Ennis' life. That was how he got thru most of the 20 years without remarrying and not fooling around with others. Two or more shared trips to Brokeback Mountain with Jack each year was enough to sustain him. Indeed, as Jack said: 'I'm not like you...'
They never went back to Brokeback Mountain, they went everywhere else skirting BB but never back. (my opinion)
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Here's a thought:
Ennis made sure he took jobs that he could take time off or quit in order to be with Jack a couple times a year. This is also why Ennis is upset, Jack had it made with a rich wife. Ennis's whole economic career is dependent on being able to accomadate Jack - he made the greatest sacrifice in this respect.
But then Jack was the one who could travel (better vehicle?) the distance to see Ennis.
My idea of a long distance relationship is with someone in the next zipcode. Did the long distance, didn't work, bad break.
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Yes. I feel that Ennis would have stayed *straight* most likely if he had not met Jack.
I will tell you that a LOT of older people think that GAY people are made not born that way<sigh>
Poor Ennis. : (
J
I'm neither very old (39) nor straight (I'm bi) and I believe that people are neither born straight nor gay. There are very different ways of looking at that question. Certainly you can look at it in a conservative "they just have to choose the right way and they can be straight if they want to" way. But you could also choose to look at it in a way that says: There are as many different ways of defining your sexuality as there are different people. And cutting it all down to genetics (a very dangerous thing to do, I might add. All that crap about identifying the "gay gene". Who says they won't try to eradicate it, once they have supposedly identified it?) makes it all seem so very bleak to me. What happened to the great deconstructivist movement, where it was taken for granted that society is what forms us and that we can think outside the box and hopefully, at some time in the future be what we want to be, all of us. That we can change the future, change society, change everything. Where does all this horrible determinism come from (god, or nature or something or other made us like this and this is what we are, for ever).
I do understand that this is a reaction to fundamentalism, maybe a rather helpless reaction: If we say we are born a certain way, nobody can tell us to be different. And I understand the fear that lies behind this. But it makes us lose so much, if we are no longer able to see that nothing, nothing at all is preordained, not sex, not gender, not being straight, gay, bi or whatever. Let's reclaim our lives and our sexual identities. Nobody is going to tell me I was "born" bisexual. Especially not anybody who would want to turn me straight. I am what I am and I choose what I am and I'm proud of it!
monicita
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Ennis' accusation of Jack at the height of their quarrel is painful to hear... and very cruel. Is it true? What did Ennis mean by such an accusation? Was Jack to blame for much of his pain? Was he intentionally trying to wound Jack, after being reminded of the lost opportunity that he squandered by refusing to live a life with his great love (proffered by Jack during their first fishing trip)? Or did he truly believe that Jack was the root of all his misery?
Your thoughts...
I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J
j, this is an interesting point of view. But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...
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The romantic in me believs that quote was Ennis' way of saying "I love you, Jack and because I love you so much, I can't function within my own life".
Jenny D
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I agree with you, JennyD.
Jim
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I agree with you, JennyD.
Jim
I second. JennyD, I do think you have gotten to the root of it all.
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Yes JennyD... thats syntheticaly what I also think
..I want Ennis..
baci
coguaro
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I agree with JennyD also, and to go even further, I think Ennis also meant "because I love you so much and I can't have you" (in the traditional sense of setting up house, etc.). Ennis is a very tortured soul. I hope that at least Jack understood that, although Ennis was difficult, he really did give up everything for Jack's sake.
camom
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Yesterday, When I wrote " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch." I was so repressed because just thinking about Ennis personalty, he is so so...I wanna scream out for he. Actually what I thought were much more than that. The biggest part is fear. What Ennis wanna say is" don't push me, I've tried everything I can. You have no idea how painful I feel. Please do not go to Mexico, do not give up on me. You mean too much to me also and I cannot quit you too, I am so scared. You are my only love, donot let me suffer more pain." Too bad, he cannot let Jack know that...
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Yesterday, When I wrote " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch." I was so repressed because just thinking about Ennis personalty, he is so so...I wanna scream out for he. Actually what I thought were much more than that. The biggest part is fear. What Ennis wanna say is" don't push me, I've tried everything I can. You have on idea how painful I feel. Do not go to Mexico, please do not give up on me. I cannot quit you too, I am so scared. You are my only love, donot let me suffer more pain." Too bad, he cannot let Jack know that...
...and, ...yeah! He means all those things.
They are so in love with each other!
"E+J"
Jim
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...and, ...yeah! He means all those things.
They are so in love with each other!
Yeah, he does. They both do, but Annie Proulx describes them as inarticulate, uneducated boys. As I see it, one of their most tragic flaws is their inability to communicate their feelings to each other. This causes endless grief to both of them, and it's one of the reasons why BBM is so heartbreaking. :'(
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The only person who loved him, with whom he was comfortable, at ease, happy, for whom he felt important, who didn't judge him, who would always be there for him, well, he just couldn't be there. So he was nobody, nowhere...
In fact, didn't Alma recognize this in Ennis when, in the kitchen, she told him (and I am really paraphrasing here) that he was always miserable before he went on these "fishing" trips but when he came back he came back glowing?
You know, after reading this entire thread, I am wondering if straight men are going to understand it any better than we are. Someone, (can not remember who) said in an interview, they did not want to make this just a gay movie with a limited audience.
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I agree with JennyD.....what I took from that line was that because of how he was, unable to express his true feelings for Jack, he would either use his fists or verbal punches to hurt Jack, but only because he couldn't express his true thoughts. I love that line though, it is SO emotional, he is so in love with Jack, but he is always holding back.
Also, on this scene, when Jack is saying to Ennis "I'll tell you this one time......." about how Ennis keeps him on a short leash, etc, if you look at Ennis during Jack's speech, Ennis has his head down, looking away from Jack, but I thought he was crying, or was trying his hardest to keep from crying. Did others see that or was it just wishful thinking on my part?
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Also, on this scene, when Jack is saying to Ennis "I'll tell you this one time......." about how Ennis keeps him on a short leash, etc, if you look at Ennis during Jack's speech, Ennis has his head down, looking away from Jack, but I thought he was crying, or was trying his hardest to keep from crying. Did others see that or was it just wishful thinking on my part?
I don't think it was wishful thinking on your part. I think your perception is keen. Ennis felt the walls caving in in his heart before he collapsed to the ground on the outside.
My heart is broken for them both.
Jim
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Jim
What a great way of describing it - he felt the walls caving in - yeah, that is so right. It was like he was shielding himself from the things Jack was saying to him by turning his back, keeping his head down, it was like he was having stones thrown at him. But ultimately, it is because he knows Jack is right - Ennis has been keeping Jack at arm's length and knows that this not fair to him, but it's to protect himself from revealing his inner most thoughts - and the main thought being that he loves Jack, and always will.
God I can see that scene now, when Ennis collapses, in to Jack's arms. Both heartbroken at their situation.
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Christie:
You're getting me all gushy and welled up inside and I have to go now to work.
Have a good day, and keep posting!
Thanks,
Jim
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Hi Jim
I'm constantly gushy and weepy since seeing BBM!!!!!
And I am at work.....I cannot concentrate on ANYTHING other than being on this forum..... I think I may get sacked soon.
Help, I have a severe case of Ennis and Jack-itis!!!!
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These posts are tearing me up. Why can't I quit this website?
I guess most of us are resigned to be gushy
for quite a while.
Incredible what this movie has done to our psyches.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.flickr.com%2F41%2F93259721_e2cc920981.jpg&hash=15d8c64a210c6fe46d1e50b3c4f1808d12a4fe7c)
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This isn't in the screenplay, but after the "I'm nothing. I'm nowhere." line, when Jack is holding Ennis and Ennis is clutching him (see pic in previous post), Jack says something like, "I can't take this anymore, Jack." Can someone verify this line for me so I can write it in my screenplay?
I'm going to try for my 5th viewing tomorrow.
camom
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Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...
I understood it that until Jack came along Ennis was in denial of his sexuality and if he and Jack would never have been together on the mountain he wouldn´t have had any oppurtunities to explore it. If Ennis hadn´t known the bliss of being so much in love (with Jack) he would have been happier and more content in his marriage and not longing for something he couldn´t have. Jack also had a grip on him nobody else had and Ennis opened up to him and told him more than he seems to have told anybody else.
His upbringing must have had a lot to do with it - seeing the man who was killed and beaten for being gay must have had a big impact on him. Also being a loner for the biggest part of his childhood must have marked him and makes it almost impossible for him to show and express his feelings.
In this quote Ennis is completely lost - he doesn´t feel like he belongs anywhere, feels like people are looking at him in the streets and he just isn´t normal. He can´t be true to himself, he can´t tell anybody the truth and he can´t hide the truth as Jack knows it all and is like an addictive drug to him. He wants to be with Jack but is scared what will happen and how others will react. Ennis feels like he´s an outcast from society, he isn´t like the regular guys and nobody would accept him like he really is.
I also felt that he was trying to protect Jack by not wanting to live with him, protect him from the fate the guy from his childhood had. And when he pictures how Jack died I feel like he realised that all his effort and sacrifice had been pointless in the end as Jack died/was killed nevertheless.
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Ennis: Then why don't you? Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...I'm nobody...I'm nowhere...
I also felt that he was trying to protect Jack by not wanting to live with him, protect him from the fate the guy from his childhood had. And when he pictures how Jack died I feel like he realised that all his effort and sacrifice had been pointless in the end as Jack died/was killed nevertheless.
Hey, this is an interesting idea: That Ennis was trying to protect Jack as well as himself by not wanting to live with him. Getting all depressed, just thinking of Ennis's loneliness. sob :-[
Monicita
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Also, the very last part of the story says (paraphrasing, don't have it right in front of me) "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, and if you can't fix it, you got a stand it."
I took this to mean that he KNEW Jack was murdered, but he wanted to BELIEVE it was an accident. So in some part his grief was due to having to "stand" knowing Jack was murdered, probably while he (Jack) was searching for a temporary substitute for Ennis. That would tie into his "Jack, I swear..." which I believe meant many, many things--all his regrets, all the unexpressed love, the repression, the rejections of Jack--clearly more than he was able to verbalize.
Now I always felt exactly the opposite---Jack died from the accident, and Ennis felt he had to believe he was murdered. Personally, I do think he died from the accident, and Ennis is so repressed from his childhood, he can't accept it as being that simple so in his mind, it has to be the tire iron----but I want it to the accident---so in my mind it is. simple as that.
and that is the last line, about his having some distance between what he knew and what he wanted to believe. Ennis couldn't accept bad luck, he had to feel there was something/one to blame for Jack's being gone.
I think that the "I'm nowhere, no one" is a statement on Ennis and Jacks always coming back to each other. Ennis could never get ahead doing what he chose to do for a living, because when Jack called, Ennis came, and if he had to quit where he was to get away he did, and you can't ever get ahead of any game, if you don't try to stick it. And he never did, till he needed child support money--then he didn't have a choice---and it cost him with Jack too--so I think he was making a statement more about his overall human condition in his relationship with Jack, not necessarily about having confusion about who/what he is.
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I know that I will probably be in the minority here but I took it to mean that it was because Jack seduced him and changed him from being straight,and messed up his life.
Disclaimer! I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU MAKE SOMEONE GAY.
J
j, this is an interesting point of view. But now that you said it, it does seem plausible, given Ennis' inherent homophobia (and his denial of it)...
Yes. I feel that Ennis would have stayed *straight* most likely if he had not met Jack.
I will tell you that a LOT of older people think that GAY people are made not born that way<sigh>
Poor Ennis. : (
J
Yes, I agreed with the point above that Ennis would most likely have not had a gay relationship had he not met Jack BUT that was probably due to his fear of the repercussions rather than him not being gay. He met Jack who knocked him for six -I think Jack being a man was rather less important in the equation - the mutual attraction was so great that even tho Jack was male, it did not matter to Ennis. I'm sure Ennis would've always had attraction to men had he not met Jack, but he would've been able to withstand it and not act on it (due to fears instilled into him by his father about homosexuality).
As for being 'made' gay - no, i don't think so at all. People are gay or they aren't.
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Yesterday, When I wrote " Can't you see that I love you too, you son of bitch." I was so repressed because just thinking about Ennis personalty, he is so so...I wanna scream out for he. Actually what I thought were much more than that. The biggest part is fear. What Ennis wanna say is" don't push me, I've tried everything I can. You have on idea how painful I feel. Do not go to Mexico, please do not give up on me. I cannot quit you too, I am so scared. You are my only love, donot let me suffer more pain." Too bad, he cannot let Jack know that...
...and, ...yeah! He means all those things.
They are so in love with each other!
"E+J"
Jim
Y'all nailed this down, along with Jenny D. This thread is gonna make me cry again.
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Great thread. Thanks. I don't have anything to add but a Thankyou all!
//Jak-ish girl
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Y'all nailed this down, along with Jenny D. This thread is gonna make me cry again
I can't take this anymore Jack
Ennis's last words to Jack
Just watched the movie again and read this thread and I cry again and again and again, cry me a river :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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In Jack and Ennis' last scene together, Ennis, at one point says something to the effect of "It's because of you I'm like this Jack..."
At every viewing, this piece of dialog has affected me intensely, but it also has left me wondering...
My question is, what is exactly Ennis referring to? Is he saying that because of Jack, he is essentially gay, but wouldn't be otherwise? Or is it something more general, like he is blaming Jack for stirring up all his emotions, good and bad, which has caused him confusion and turmoil in his life? Something else?
There are some insightful people in this forum, so let me know what you think.
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In Jack and Ennis' last scene together, Ennis, at one point says something to the effect of "It's because of you I'm like this Jack..."
At every viewing, this piece of dialog has affected me intensely, but it also has left me wondering...
My question is, what is exactly Ennis referring to? Is he saying that because of Jack, he is essentially gay, but wouldn't be otherwise? Or is it something more general, like he is blaming Jack for stirring up all his emotions, good and bad, which has caused him confusion and turmoil in his life? Something else?
There are some insightful people in this forum, so let me know what you think.
I have always thought that Ennis was referring to the bigger picture (not Jack in particular). Ennis, because of his childhood, had a lot of internalized homophobia and couldn't reconcile that with his love for Jack. I think when he said this he meant that Jack brought out that love and those feelings...deemed wrong by Wyoming society and because he couldn't fit into that societal mold he was lost....nothing and nowhere. Even Annie Proulx makes it a point that this story is about homophobia...THAT is the true and bigger message of BBM.
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[
I have always thought that Ennis was referring to the bigger picture (not Jack in particular). Ennis, because of his childhood, had a lot of internalized homophobia and couldn't reconcile that with his love for Jack. I think when he said this he meant that Jack brought out that love and those feelings...deemed wrong by Wyoming society and because he couldn't fit into that societal mold he was lost....nothing and nowhere. Even Annie Proulx makes it a point that this story is about homophobia...THAT is the true and bigger message of BBM.
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Annie, Larry and Dianna have all said the same thing about the story. Ennis is gay. He does't know it or understand it, but he is gay. The denial, the pain............been there done that. I have been very blessed. I have never experienced overt homophobia. I'd guess I am in the minority. What I have experienced is an internal homophobia very similar to what Ennis had. I got over it in the 70's . Or rather I made other people get over it. Had Ennis been more than he was, had some ecducation, some experience perhaps things would have beee different for him. But he was trapped in his time, a world that could not forget or forgive. That world is still there and I weep for it.
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Hello rpmnh, this is one of great lines from Ennis.
There have been two topics on this. Please check them out and add your discussion there if you like.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=794.0
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1038.0
Because there are already two same topics. This one will be locked. Thanks.
Also, as a reference, there is an index topic showing topics that have been discussed. It is very helpful for the discussion.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1504.0
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I thought it was almost adorable...in an interesting way; Ennis was indirectly saying that his love for Jack was so deep that it blew him off his feet and messed up his entire life.
I agree with you here. I don't think Ennis was really blaming Jack. I think he was trying to tell him how much he loved him. Jack just went through a whole soliloquy about how dissatisfied he was with the relationship, that Ennis didn't love him enough to share his life with him. I took it to mean, "How can you think I don't love you enough. Look what my love for you has done to my life. I have lost everything.......my wife, my daughters, numerous jobs, my self-respect." Have you ever tried to explain the depth of your love to another by telling them how that love has effected your life, whether it be positive or negative. I think this is what Ennis is doing here. I don't think Ennis is blaming Jack for it. I think he realizes that it is his love for Jack (that he chose to give), that has done this to him.
I do; however, feel that he is also trying to justify his need to work in August. He has quit so many jobs for Jack, that jobs are becoming harder to come by (he is less marketable). So, Jack shouldn't blame him for not making it in August.
Although at that moment I don't think that entered his mind. He is just staying, "Look at me, Jack. It is because of my love for you and my guilt and shame inherent in that they I have been an empty shell of a man."
This is the most gut wrenching scene in the whole movie to me.
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well the look on his eyes, his voice and how he was shaking was truly amazing that Ennis was atonished of what he just had discovered the man he loved was cheating him with other "guys" in Mexico and who knows where else. that ennis was destroyed and the words "i wish i knew a way to quit you" was a shoot to his heart. he said that because he was telling Jack that he was the one for him, there was no one else for Ennis rather than Jack and he have lost all the things people could think was important for him. but he didn't care as long that Jack was with him he was ok but hearing that for Jack was not enough and he have being getting from others what he wanted was a big hit for him. he probably felt that all his relationship with Jack was a facade and that what Jack only wanted was f*ck with him. he felt extremely sad. he gave up a lot of his things just because jack, he was nothing and at the same time he was Ennis because Jack was still with him.
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I am so glad to hear from someone whose sympathies are with Ennis. Although I feel VERY sorry for Jack, the debt of my sympathy for Ennis is unsurpassed.
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I am so glad to hear from someone whose sympathies are with Ennis. Although I feel VERY sorry for Jack, the debt of my sympathy for Ennis is unsurpassed.
I feel sorry for the both of them; for not once being able to say how much they really meant to each other.
My feeling is that the hurtful exchange they had at the end was precipitated by Ennis' lack of response the night before to Jack's "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it". I think that hurt Jack more than anything.
If you look at his expression that morning, I think he looks sadder and more unhappy than if it was just them parting for another long period of time; because of Ennis' lack of response, there was something more going on between them. Ennis told Jack to lighten up on him, but Jack hurt too much to do so, so he lashed out with the whole "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech.
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Thanks Chrissie, I hate to admit I think so much like Ennis that I sometimes have trouble seeing the other point of view. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for pointing it out.
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well chrissy323 i need to admit you got a point there jack was so hurt also :'(
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After he says "why don't you then. It's because of you I'm like this...." What does he say after? He's a nobody going no where?
Because he can't sort out his feelings right?
I didn't notice this the first time I saw the movie but when Jack then hugs Ennis he says "Damn you Ennis." I thought that was so sad, he knows he loves him and when Ennis breaks down, he realizes Ennnis can't help it and he can't help his feelings for Ennis. :(
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Hello, masetane.
I think there is already a thread devotede to this subject and ther meaning of the words exchanged. I shall try to find it and merge this thread with it.
You will find the index of topics at the top of the page helpful. :)
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I feel sorry for the both of them; for not once being able to say how much they really meant to each other.
My feeling is that the hurtful exchange they had at the end was precipitated by Ennis' lack of response the night before to Jack's "Sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it". I think that hurt Jack more than anything.
If you look at his expression that morning, I think he looks sadder and more unhappy than if it was just them parting for another long period of time; because of Ennis' lack of response, there was something more going on between them. Ennis told Jack to lighten up on him, but Jack hurt too much to do so, so he lashed out with the whole "I wish I knew how to quit you" speech.
Well said. With all due respect, he had it comin'. It was bound to happen, and blame wasn't necessarily one's or the other's. It's a blameless situation really, with too much space between opportunities to express what they felt for each other. Jack was being probably more honest than he could have even figured of himself when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you". Really I don't think there could have been any more holding back once this gateway unlatched - - it was time for confession, and this didn't sit well with Ennis.
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Well said. With all due respect, he had it comin'. It was bound to happen, and blame wasn't necessarily one's or the other's. It's a blameless situation really, with too much space between opportunities to express what they felt for each other. Jack was being probably more honest than he could have even figured of himself when he said "I wish I knew how to quit you". Really I don't think there could have been any more holding back once this gateway unlatched - - it was time for confession, and this didn't sit well with Ennis.
It is moving tro see this thread once again.
Ennis's "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" and Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" are pendants to each other. They both express an ambiguous hidden admission. In Jack's, it was an indirect admission that he couldn't quit Ennis. With Ennis, it was an admission that he wasn't in control after all.
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It is moving tro see this thread once again.
Ennis's "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" and Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" are pendants to each other. They both express an ambiguous hidden admission. In Jack's, it was an indirect admission that he couldn't quit Ennis. With Ennis, it was an admission that he wasn't in control after all.
Yes.
A couple notes off of this, and they both ambiguously suggest they can't help but love each other. Not that they knew this of course.
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Yes.
A couple notes off of this, and they both ambiguously suggest they can't help but love each other. Not that they knew this of course.
A higher power controls them -- no matter how hard they try to hide this, it cannot be suppressed.
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A higher power controls them -- no matter how hard they try to hide this, it cannot be suppressed.
On so many levels: Yes :)
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Which is why this whole subject reminds me of a phrase I read once (Gore Vidal?) -- something about being toys of some god, who lifts us, only to break us. I think this is so apt, when we view the last confrontation. It is generally true about love. Perversely, the Last Confrontation IS a love scene.
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Which is why this whole subject reminds me of a phrase I read once (Gore Vidal?) -- something about being toys of some god, who lifts us, only to break us. I think this is so apt, when we view the last confrontation. It is generally true about love. Perversely, the Last Confrontation IS a love scene.
Oh I like it.
Perversity from a real high level ;)
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Intersting topic Thomas..As we all know that Jack is the only man Ennis truely loved and cherished and he never could let go of Jack..he held on to him for 20 years....I had earlier told in the past in another post that Ennis could never love a man the way he loved Jack..IMO if Jack would not have come into his life then due to his fears he would have never ever been with another man...However, Jack made him feel so very comfortable after FNIT and SNIT and nurtured their relationship...Ennis never would have had that with anyone else..even his wife could not replace that...Ennis knew how much Jack meant to him and in a way Jack became his weakness.....he lived a life of fear, disappointment and grief..Jack is not to be blamed at all and neither Ennis..I think its the circumstances that provoked Ennis to react so...he couldnt accept the fact that inspite of his deep love for Jack which actually changed his entire life and he lost so much in the bargain, Jack went to Mexico..After that when Jack told him that he wished that he could quit him made Ennis heart burn and he felt that his love was not sufficient to Jack as he did goto Mexico..this made him angry as well as so hurt that he said the words that he is nobody and nowhere...
Ennis also said that in frustration too..sometimes in anger we say things what we technically dont mean...I mean he dint mean to say that Jack is the root cause of all problems...I think it was both of them who had a contribution to the relationship....Ennis felt that his life is nothing as he had a failed marriage, he was not spending much time with his children and he had to supress all this true feelings for Jack...he felt like he is about to lose all that he has and that made him say that he is nobody and nowhere..Oh God there is so much pain in those words..its like as if his world has fallen apart...
My heart goes out to both of them as all they wanted was each other but could not get that completely...Jack wanted Ennis and was willing to take the risk of living together and Ennis could not do that as his fears overpowered his love at times....I am in pain to even imagine that...
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Thanks orangetruck and smartestsonia.
Sometimes we do say things in anger, but you know, sometimes, those are the times when we are most honest about ourselves and to others. Whether or not Ennis was justified in saying those harsh words, it does not change the fact that THAT was how he felt -- that he was trapped between his love for Jack and his own deep-seated fears. One certainly feels for them -- are we not is one way or another victims of the same conflicts? With Jack, Ennis's words did sort of become a sort of revelation to him. Jack understood that with these harsh words, Ennis inadvertently showed how powerless he was against the force of love.
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Thanks orangetruck and smartestsonia.
Sometimes we do say things in anger, but you know, sometimes, those are the times when we are most honest about ourselves and to others. Whether or not Ennis was justified in saying those harsh words, it does not change the fact that THAT was how he felt -- that he was trapped between his love for Jack and his own deep-seated fears. One certainly feels for them -- are we not is one way or another victims of the same conflicts? With Jack, Ennis's words did sort of become a sort of revelation to him. Jack understood that with these harsh words, Ennis inadvertently showed how powerless he was against the force of love.
Hear hear :cr)
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Thanks orangetruck and smartestsonia.
Sometimes we do say things in anger, but you know, sometimes, those are the times when we are most honest about ourselves and to others. Whether or not Ennis was justified in saying those harsh words, it does not change the fact that THAT was how he felt -- that he was trapped between his love for Jack and his own deep-seated fears. One certainly feels for them -- are we not is one way or another victims of the same conflicts? With Jack, Ennis's words did sort of become a sort of revelation to him. Jack understood that with these harsh words, Ennis inadvertently showed how powerless he was against the force of love.
Thanks Thomas ^f^ I completely agree with ya....I personally feel that it is true both ways..When one is angry and frustrated all his repressed emotions come out as his head is out of control and whatever is in the heart is out..On the other hand sometimes there is a tendency to exaggerate and not mean every word..This is off topic but even when people r drunk its the same...either they will tell all that is in their heart or just talk stuff that they don't completely mean...
As for Ennis in that scene when he told Jack that he is nothing and nowhere is the horrible and deep seated feelings of losing everything...he felt so empty in his life..he felt like a failure..and then when he says that to Jack, it pains Jack too and he hugs him and wants him to calm down...I was watching that scene online and I really could empathize with Ennis as he felt so helpless..his fears and so many disappointments in life had made him so vulnerable...his true and strong love for Jack took him so far and led him to where he was that day
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What is sad about this scene is that Ennis couldn't admit that Jack was the only person who gave true/authentic meaning to his life, and that everything else was based on a pretense of being somebody he definitely was not. With Jack's death, we see the authenticity finally making headway in his putting his love for his daughter above other more mundane things. If there is anything good that cam out of this tragedy, it was that it taught Ennis not to take love for granted.
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I definitely saw Ennis' "I'm nowhere" etc. to mean that Jack came into his life and opened Ennis' eyes and heart to unconditional love, something he'd never felt before. I don't think he was trying to hurt Jack. Remember, Ennis has trouble with verbal expression - he feels emotions deeply but can't find a way to say them out loud, like Jack can. When Jack said the "sometimes I miss you so much" line the night before, I get the feeling that Ennis' mind is churning away - wondering just how he can convey to Jack the enormous depth of his feelings.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda - I'm sure Ennis would have found the words had he known this was his last time with Jack. This scene especially gets the lump forming in my throat - I cry every time I see it - I want to magically transport them both to a time and place where they can be together, in the open, loving each other. BBM is truly the most beautiful love story I've ever seen.
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I definitely saw Ennis' "I'm nowhere" etc. to mean that Jack came into his life and opened Ennis' eyes and heart to unconditional love, something he'd never felt before. I don't think he was trying to hurt Jack. Remember, Ennis has trouble with verbal expression - he feels emotions deeply but can't find a way to say them out loud, like Jack can. When Jack said the "sometimes I miss you so much" line the night before, I get the feeling that Ennis' mind is churning away - wondering just how he can convey to Jack the enormous depth of his feelings.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda - I'm sure Ennis would have found the words had he known this was his last time with Jack. This scene especially gets the lump forming in my throat - I cry every time I see it - I want to magically transport them both to a time and place where they can be together, in the open, loving each other. BBM is truly the most beautiful love story I've ever seen.
You are certainly not alone in feeling this way, hippiewannabe.
Many of us also feel that "I'm nowhere" refers to Ennis's indebtedness to Jack --for opening up Ennis's eyes and heart, as you say so beautifully.
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WOW! I don't know how I've missed this topic. I think it may be the best yet. I agree that both were hurt & Jack wanted to get everything out on the table. All these yrs. of waiting for his c & c operation (his dream) were coming to an end. Yes, he'd been "driven" to Mexico to have his needs met, but he couldn't quit Ennis if he wanted to. They were soulmates, & he knew it. Ennis then lets him know that he (Jack) is the reason he changes jobs, has nothing, is nobody. When Ennis breaks down, there is NO WAY that Jack could just stand there w/ his back to him. He had to comfort Ennis & let him know he's there for him & will always love him. It's then that Ennis admits "I just can't stand this no more, Jack". All of the lies, etc. of the past 20 yrs. were crashing down on him.
I also think that this is why he broke it off w/ Cassie. He didn't want to keep living a lie. My ? is...why did he drive away & not look back?
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WOW! I don't know how I've missed this topic. I think it may be the best yet. I agree that both were hurt & Jack wanted to get everything out on the table. All these yrs. of waiting for his c & c operation (his dream) were coming to an end. Yes, he'd been "driven" to Mexico to have his needs met, but he couldn't quit Ennis if he wanted to. They were soulmates, & he knew it. Ennis then lets him know that he (Jack) is the reason he changes jobs, has nothing, is nobody. When Ennis breaks down, there is NO WAY that Jack could just stand there w/ his back to him. He had to comfort Ennis & let him know he's there for him & will always love him. It's then that Ennis admits "I just can't stand this no more, Jack". All of the lies, etc. of the past 20 yrs. were crashing down on him.
I also think that this is why he broke it off w/ Cassie. He didn't want to keep living a lie. My ? is...why did he drive away & not look back?
It makes me wonder the same. I have come across people who when r upset like to be alone..I am not like that at all..But I know people who r ..Ennis felt that his whole world is crumbling down and he just wanted to weep by himself..He already showed Jack how vulnerable he became..When he clamed down he did want to meet up with Jack and clear things but we all know what tragedy followed that :\'( :\'(
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WOW! I don't know how I've missed this topic. I think it may be the best yet. I agree that both were hurt & Jack wanted to get everything out on the table. All these yrs. of waiting for his c & c operation (his dream) were coming to an end. Yes, he'd been "driven" to Mexico to have his needs met, but he couldn't quit Ennis if he wanted to. They were soulmates, & he knew it. Ennis then lets him know that he (Jack) is the reason he changes jobs, has nothing, is nobody. When Ennis breaks down, there is NO WAY that Jack could just stand there w/ his back to him. He had to comfort Ennis & let him know he's there for him & will always love him. It's then that Ennis admits "I just can't stand this no more, Jack". All of the lies, etc. of the past 20 yrs. were crashing down on him.
I also think that this is why he broke it off w/ Cassie. He didn't want to keep living a lie. My ? is...why did he drive away & not look back?
I think we had speculated somewhere about Ennis probably looking back at Jack as he drove away. We can't tell for sure..
But why did he drive off at that moment. Because it was too much for their hearts at that moment. Ennis breaking off with Cassie happened after he had time to reflect about the events of the Last Confrontation. The cange was very slight, but arguably deep.
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I think we had speculated somewhere about Ennis probably looking back at Jack as he drove away. We can't tell for sure..
But why did he drive off at that moment. Because it was too much for their hearts at that moment. Ennis breaking off with Cassie happened after he had time to reflect about the events of the Last Confrontation. The cange was very slight, but arguably deep.
Yes, I think Ennis was so tired of living a lie, it just was too much for him to bear "Can't stand this no more Jack" and he quit Cassie soon after because she was part of that lie. He was in a mind set to commit more to Jack I feel come November, although it was too late for him in this life, but still he did commit "Jack I swear" in the last scene.
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Yes, I think Ennis was so tired of living a lie, it just was too much for him to bear "Can't stand this no more Jack" and he quit Cassie soon after because she was part of that lie. He was in a mind set to commit more to Jack I feel come November, although it was too late for him in this life, but still he did commit "Jack I swear" in the last scene.
I completely agree with ya...I think Ennis broke up with Cassie as he wanted to spend his life more fruitfully..If he was not able to live with Jack he atleast wanted to spend more time with him...he wanted to make up for the lost time..Unfortunately it was too late...Jack passed away and Ennis was left with so much regret of what could have been...Even after Jack passed away Ennis lived with Jack in his heart..he lived for him...that is a great commitmemt
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Yes, I think Ennis was so tired of living a lie, it just was too much for him to bear "Can't stand this no more Jack" and he quit Cassie soon after because she was part of that lie. He was in a mind set to commit more to Jack I feel come November, although it was too late for him in this life, but still he did commit "Jack I swear" in the last scene.
Yes, "can't stand this anymore" clearly pointed to his inability to deal with the situation. He needed some time. Alas, time had run out on Jack.
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Yes, "can't stand this anymore" clearly pointed to his inability to deal with the situation. He needed some time. Alas, time had run out on Jack.
puts me into pieces to view that... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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puts me into pieces to view that... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
Sorry, smartestsonia. This is one of the most difficult scenes in the entire movie -- perhaps the most difficult.
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I agree...this scene is so painful to watch, but I was so glad that Ennis admitted his pain before Jack died. I was a little surprised that there were no comforting words from Jack. That hug was so awesome. No way could Jack turn his back on Ennis.
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Sorry, smartestsonia. This is one of the most difficult scenes in the entire movie -- perhaps the most difficult.
I think we all go through this pain Thomas..Its hard but I think we all stand it..Their love gives us the strength to do that...
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OK folks, my PBS is attacking again! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Just reading this thread made me cry! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Even so, the saddest scene for me is not DE, but the one when Ennis finds the shirts... oh, how that hurts! He found their love hidden in the closet. And his last words: Jack, I swear! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I can't write any more........ :\'( :\'( :\'( later....
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OK folks, my PBS is attacking again! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Just reading this thread made me cry! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Even so, the saddest scene for me is not DE, but the one when Ennis finds the shirts... oh, how that hurts! He found their love hidden in the closet. And his last words: Jack, I swear! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I can't write any more........ :\'( :\'( :\'( later....
Dear Loreen, hold on :ghug: we r all with ya :ghug:
Its hitting us all hard...I think that when we see Ennis holding the shirts it gets unbeareable to see the height of tragedy that has taken place...It shattered me completely...Although their love has made me strong from within...I have experienced deep happiness to see that even death dint take away what they had..Ennis was literally feeling the presence of Jack in the final scene..its like Jack hugging him when he hugged those shirts.
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I agree...this scene is so painful to watch, but I was so glad that Ennis admitted his pain before Jack died. I was a little surprised that there were no comforting words from Jack. That hug was so awesome. No way could Jack turn his back on Ennis.
I think the admission freed him from some of his internal demons. It was a beginning rather than an end, as I had voiced out previously.
I think we all go through this pain Thomas..Its hard but I think we all stand it..Their love gives us the strength to do that...
I think the pain is a large part of why we cherish it so.
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OK folks, my PBS is attacking again! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Just reading this thread made me cry! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Even so, the saddest scene for me is not DE, but the one when Ennis finds the shirts... oh, how that hurts! He found their love hidden in the closet. And his last words: Jack, I swear! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I can't write any more........ :\'( :\'( :\'( later....
:ghug:
And how painfully sad he was when he finally came down. You could see the pain etched on his face, even as he couldn't find the right words to ask for the shirts.
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I think the pain is a large part of why we cherish it so.
Sure, tpe! You always find the right words and I know that it is so! The problem for me is only that the pain is sometimes unbearable! :\'(
:ghug:
And how painfully sad he was when he finally came down. You could see the pain etched on his face, even as he couldn't find the right words to ask for the shirts.
I already mentioned that when Jack's Ma take the shirts from him to put them in the paper bag, she gently touched his hand ... Oh, all that situation was so devastating for my emotions.. :\'(
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Sure, tpe! You always find the right words and I know that it is so! The problem for me is only that the pain is sometimes unbearable! :\'(
Often, the same can be said about love.
I already mentioned that when Jack's Ma take the shirts from him to put them in the paper bag, she gently touched his hand ... Oh, all that situation was so devastating for my emotions.. :\'(
Ennis's sadness at this moment was unbearable, but that touch must have been a comfort.
If Jack and Jack's death somehow made Ennis miserable, it is a comfort to know that Ennis turned became a more loving and caring individual. "It's because of you that I'm like this..."
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...
If Jack and Jack's death somehow made Ennis miserable, it is a comfort to know that Ennis turned became a more loving and caring individual. "It's because of you that I'm like this..."
I love this insight.
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It is moving tro see this thread once again.
Ennis's "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this" and Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" are pendants to each other. They both express an ambiguous hidden admission. In Jack's, it was an indirect admission that he couldn't quit Ennis. With Ennis, it was an admission that he wasn't in control after all.
Tpe,
I just went back to one of your previous posts - you are so right here! I always believed that all his life Ennis desperately wanted to be in control of everything - his marriage, his kids, his job, habitat... but he was NEVER in control of his feelings for Jack! When he heard that Jack had sex with another men, he broke! At the same time, Jack, who was searching for comfort with another men, admit that no other man can replace his precious friend, his love - Ennis!
Unfortunately, their new meeting was never to come, and the possible result from this confessions will never occur! :\'( :\'( :\'(
Annie P, what did you do to us? Why you killed our dear Jack, and let Ennis suffer so much? :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Thanks orangetruck :)
And thanks too, loreen. I think losing control was a big thing to Ennis at that moment. But I also think he gradually sensed it as a liberation. Who knows what could have opened up and flowered, had they been able to meet that November?
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Often, the same can be said about love.
Ennis's sadness at this moment was unbearable, but that touch must have been a comfort.
If Jack and Jack's death somehow made Ennis miserable, it is a comfort to know that Ennis turned became a more loving and caring individual. "It's because of you that I'm like this..."
I'll have to oppose a little to this! ~)
He was always loving and caring IMO. He just never saw the sun, through the very narrow entrance to his heart. He was in pain before Jack's death ( as he new that he's refusing the "diamond" Jack was offering to him), and he'll be in pain forever (as Jack will never come back). I have to admit that I see not so much comfort in the last scenes of the movie. Only a deep deep sorrow! :\'( :\'( :\'( .... ~)
So many lost chances, so many suffering, so much sensesless denial .... and finally death! Valley of tears! :\'(
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I'll have to oppose a little to this! ~)
He was always loving and caring IMO. He just never saw the sun, through the very narrow entrance to his heart. He was in pain before Jack's death ( as he new that he's refusing the "diamond" Jack was offering to him), and he'll be in pain forever (as Jack will never come back). I have to admit that I see not so much comfort in the last scenes of the movie. Only a deep deep sorrow! :\'( :\'( :\'( .... ~)
So many lost chances, so many suffering, so much sensesless denial .... and finally death! Valley of tears! :\'(
Well, I think Ennis did love the poeple around him -- Jack, the daughters, and even Alma. But the love was previously not "big" enough to surmount hios opwn deep fears. Jack's death made this possible, if only gradually.
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Well, I think Ennis did love the poeple around him -- Jack, the daughters, and even Alma. But the love was previously not "big" enough to surmount hios opwn deep fears. Jack's death made this possible, if only gradually.
I I know so many Brokies have seen the light at the end of BBM! I just haven't.... Maybe I need time, or... It's just that my regrets for their lost chances can't be surpassed by a little change in Ennis's approach to others or his decision to go to Junior's wedding. He just lost so much to gain so little.
I am sorry to be so pessimistic, as others feel pain too, but I can't help it!
~)
*o) One way or the other I respect your opinion a lot! :^^) :^^)
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Loreen...in time your heart will heal. I now see it as bittersweet, but all of us have been where you are now. :^^)
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Loreen...in time your heart will heal. I now see it as bittersweet, but all of us have been where you are now. :^^)
:ghug:
Yes, I expect this pain to ease, or to change... it will! In fact it is a bit easier already! $)
^f^
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He just never saw the sun, through the very narrow entrance to his heart. He was in pain before Jack's death ( as he new that he's refusing the "diamond" Jack was offering to him), and he'll be in pain forever (as Jack will never come back). I have to admit that I see not so much comfort in the last scenes of the movie. Only a deep deep sorrow! :\'( :\'( :\'( .... ~)
So many lost chances, so many suffering, so much sensesless denial .... and finally death! Valley of tears! :\'(
I I know so many Brokies have seen the light at the end of BBM! I just haven't.... Maybe I need time, or... It's just that my regrets for their lost chances can't be surpassed by a little change in Ennis's approach to others or his decision to go to Junior's wedding. He just lost so much to gain so little.
After almost three years I still feel like this. :-\\ :-\\
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After almost three years I still feel like this. :-\\ :-\\
Your words are not so comforting for my hopes to get over PBS as soon as possible (3 YEARS??) but surely I feel for you. It's the very same pain we share! $)
:ghug:
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Your words are not so comforting for my hopes to get over PBS as soon as possible (3 YEARS??) but surely I feel for you. It's the very same pain we share! $)
:ghug:
Baby, as I said lots of times here, my PBS is worse than ever, and sometimes I think it's stronger than the first time I saw the movie; or maybe it's because I was dying of sadness back then after seeing BBM and I couldn't think or feel that I didn't realized of how much I was suffering; or maybe it was because I was terribly alone (I found this forum a year and half after my first view of the film) and I couldn't put in words my feelings that I never could meassure the intensity of my pain. But now I can tell you that my PBS is as tall, strong and huge as that damn mountain called Brokeback was.
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Tammy its good to see you! ^f^
Come here.... :ghug: :ghug: :ghug:
You an I both lay broken at the foot a that there mountain.
Ill try an start a fire you check that harmonica.
:f) :c)
This confrontation was/is somethin that shot right through me. Startled and saddend and still haunts me.
Hey, Shawn!! :ghug: :ghug: :ghug: :ghug:
It's so good to be here again, cowboy.
First time I saw BBM I was so shocked because of the confrontation scene that after my second view I knew it all by heart, all the words, all the expressions, and one good friend of mine at work made me every day recite all the dialogue said there; but it hurt so damn much and I didn't want to do it, so I tried to avoid my friend every day. Tell you what, still I know by heart Ennis lines and Jack's lines, in English and in Spanish, and still hurt like the first time I saw that scene. Don't get me started, friend, because I could tell you about the river I cried in Brussels when I saw our boys talking to each other like that, and I'm already so OT here.
Shawn. %)
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Baby, as I said lots of times here, my PBS is worse than ever, and sometimes I think it's stronger than the first time I saw the movie; or maybe it's because I was dying of sadness back then after seeing BBM and I couldn't think or feel that I didn't realized of how much I was suffering; or maybe it was because I was terribly alone (I found this forum a year and half after my first view of the film) and I couldn't put in words my feelings that I never could meassure the intensity of my pain. But now I can tell you that my PBS is as tall, strong and huge as that damn mountain called Brokeback was.
Sweet Tammy :ghug:
My dear I feel your pain..I feel the same..Its chokes me when I watch the FC..Its too heart breaking and even today when I watch the film my wounds gets fresh...There is so much love in our pain and I really believe that this love keeps us going...Ennis and Jack r an inseperable part of our lives and inspite of the lack of communication and so much hurt they r soulmates and their love is eternal.
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Baby, as I said lots of times here, my PBS is worse than ever, and sometimes I think it's stronger than the first time I saw the movie; or maybe it's because I was dying of sadness back then after seeing BBM and I couldn't think or feel that I didn't realized of how much I was suffering; or maybe it was because I was terribly alone (I found this forum a year and half after my first view of the film) and I couldn't put in words my feelings that I never could meassure the intensity of my pain. But now I can tell you that my PBS is as tall, strong and huge as that damn mountain called Brokeback was.
OMG BT, don't do this to me. I started to ease my pain now, but I am so much afraid of any word or any situation that can make my PBS come again. I understand you.
I just have to believe that one day I'll be free of Ennis and Jack! And now I'm trying to find my way out. You should to, because it depends only on us!
I don't want to preach here, but I know that all of us should cherish our own lives and health and try to accept this sorrow as a part of our hearts. After all, it is only a story, story that thought us something! Each one of us has learned the different lesson, according to our own hearts and souls, our background, experience....
As much as I need a comfort myself, I see that you're in the really bad state right now, and I feel for you deeply. $) :^^)
:ghug: :ghug: :ghug:
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I I know so many Brokies have seen the light at the end of BBM! I just haven't.... Maybe I need time, or... It's just that my regrets for their lost chances can't be surpassed by a little change in Ennis's approach to others or his decision to go to Junior's wedding. He just lost so much to gain so little.
I am sorry to be so pessimistic, as others feel pain too, but I can't help it!
~)
*o) One way or the other I respect your opinion a lot! :^^) :^^)
Well, personally, I am not as optimistic as you think. IN fact, I rather sympathize with your point of view. Ennis learned how to love a bit more, even as he will spend the rest of his life with a deep pain. Jack's "lesson" was a two-edged blade.
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Well, personally, I am not as optimistic as you think. IN fact, I rather sympathize with your point of view. Ennis learned how to love a bit more, even as he will spend the rest of his life with a deep pain. Jack's "lesson" was a two-edged blade.
Tpe ^f^,
I'm new here in the forum, and I'm sure that many Brokies have already discussed this issues before, in some other threads, maybe even years ago... I saw that many Brokies think that FC was a turning point where Ennis maybe changed, or Jack decided to move on (with Randall), or...
Also, some see that after losing Jack forever, Ennis's has changed and become more loving or something...
I see nothing of these. Of course, I believe that BBM is so emotionally complicated story that each of us has his own explanation and feeling about it. Well, mine is that there's no hope for Ennis. Just a deep sorrow, just some long and lonely years of regretting for let Jack go. Years of keeping shirts in his poor closet, years of sweet and sad dreams about Jack, endurance he had shown through all his young years which will last until he die, and the motto of this story: If you can not fix it, you have to stand it. Surely, Ennis can't fix it any more. :\'(
As for FC, I also see no obvious change. Only that confession from Jack and stunning reaction from Ennis, as you beautifully explained yesterday. Had dear Jack be alive, they'll meet in November and things would be pretty much the same, IMO.
Maybe A. Proloux could tell us more about it...
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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Tpe ^f^,
I'm new here in the forum, and I'm sure that many Brokies have already discussed this issues before, in some other threads, maybe even years ago... I saw that many Brokies think that FC was a turning point where Ennis maybe changed, or Jack decided to move on (with Randall), or...
Also, some see that after losing Jack forever, Ennis's has changed and become more loving or something...
I see nothing of these. Of course, I believe that BBM is so emotionally complicated story that each of us has his own explanation and feeling about it. Well, mine is that there's no hope for Ennis. Just a deep sorrow, just some long and lonely years of regretting for let Jack go. Years of keeping shirts in his poor closet, years of sweet and sad dreams about Jack, endurance he had shown through all his young years which will last until he die, and the motto of this story: If you can not fix it, you have to stand it. Surely, Ennis can't fix it any more. :\'(
As for FC, I also see no obvious change. Only that confession from Jack and stunning reaction from Ennis, as you beautifully explained yesterday. Had dear Jack be alive, they'll meet in November and things would be pretty much the same, IMO.
Maybe A. Proloux could tell us more about it...
:\'( :\'( :\'(
IMO , I feel that in FC Jack did see the intensity of Ennis's hurts and suffering and he came and hugged him because he saw that Ennis was fighting it so much and could not take it..Ennis breaking up with Cassie showed us hope of him being more with Jack..I am not talking about living together as I feel that it would be too much for Ennis to deal with..But in November if they would have met I feel that things would have been better..I dont know why but I feel that Ennis realized that he was not there for Jack so many times and Jack realized that Ennis was broken...When they would have met next time, perhaps in November and if Jack would have known that Ennis broke up with Cassie that would have given him a positive signal that there is hope...On the other hand, Ennis would have never ever beared sharing Jack with another man and would have not let him be with another man and thats why he wanted to meet up with Jack to make things better...I really see hope there and I really feel that it would have worked out..I mean atleast they would have met and had a virtual relation if not living together...It would have been atleast better than what happened as they dint meet and Jack passed away...
Alas,neither they nor we knew that Jack would pass away and so much would be left unsaid and unspoken :\'( :\'(
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IMO , I feel that in FC Jack did see the intensity of Ennis's hurts and suffering and he came and hugged him because he saw that Ennis was fighting it so much and could not take it..Ennis breaking up with Cassie showed us hope of him being more with Jack..I am not talking about living together as I feel that it would be too much for Ennis to deal with..But in November if they would have met I feel that things would have been better..I don't know why but I feel that Ennis realized that he was not there for Jack so many times and Jack realized that Ennis was broken...When they would have met next time, perhaps in November and if Jack would have known that Ennis broke up with Cassie that would have given him a positive signal that there is hope...On the other hand, Ennis would have never ever bared sharing Jack with another man and would have not let him be with another man and thats why he wanted to meet up with Jack to make things better...I really see hope there and I really feel that it would have worked out..I mean at least they would have met and had a virtual relation if not living together...It would have been at least better than what happened as they dint meet and Jack passed away...
Alas,neither they nor we knew that Jack would pass away and so much would be left unsaid and unspoken :\'( :\'(
Dear Cleo, ^f^
today I watched BBM again, and this time I was crying from the very beginning of the movie. What to say? $)
FC was definitely a scene with a lots of hidden meanings and feelings, suppressed emotions, secrets, but most of all the scene where both of them express their devotion to each other, each in his own way - Ennis saying that he suffers all his life because of this secret love and Jack saying that he had sex with others feeding his unquenchable hunger for Ennis. Almost 20 years had passed, and as LJN said, everything was at the beginning as Ennis accept no changes, not even minor.
Breaking up with Cassie for me was only a sign that Ennis admits that nothing in his life is worthy of pursuing, except of his love for Jack. IMO he just did not want to waist so much energy about Cassie as she was definitely not the one who could give him a complete comfort. On the other side, she sure had her expectations from their relationship which he was not willing to fulfill.
The only thing that is little intriguing is the fact that you pointed out well: Ennis would never agree to share Jack with other man! That little fact make me believe that maybe, just MAYBE, Ennis would have give more from himself in November. On the other hand, why not meet earlier? If he was so jealous of Jack, he would've find a way to meet Jack way before November. Even loose his job if necessary.
Anyway, I will repeat that I firmly believe that this complicated relations are left to each of us to comprehend ourselves! No one can tell us what we see and how we feel about FC, or any other scene in the movie!
:^^)
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Tpe ^f^,
I'm new here in the forum, and I'm sure that many Brokies have already discussed this issues before, in some other threads, maybe even years ago... I saw that many Brokies think that FC was a turning point where Ennis maybe changed, or Jack decided to move on (with Randall), or...
Also, some see that after losing Jack forever, Ennis's has changed and become more loving or something...
I see nothing of these. Of course, I believe that BBM is so emotionally complicated story that each of us has his own explanation and feeling about it. Well, mine is that there's no hope for Ennis. Just a deep sorrow, just some long and lonely years of regretting for let Jack go. Years of keeping shirts in his poor closet, years of sweet and sad dreams about Jack, endurance he had shown through all his young years which will last until he die, and the motto of this story: If you can not fix it, you have to stand it. Surely, Ennis can't fix it any more. :\'(
As for FC, I also see no obvious change. Only that confession from Jack and stunning reaction from Ennis, as you beautifully explained yesterday. Had dear Jack be alive, they'll meet in November and things would be pretty much the same, IMO.
Maybe A. Proloux could tell us more about it...
:\'( :\'( :\'(
But how will you explain Ennis's decision to attend his daughter's wedding? And why did he use the word "love" -- for the first and only time in the movie -- in this very scene? Does it not show a transformed Ennis?
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But how will you explain Ennis's decision to attend his daughter's wedding? And why did he use the word "love" -- for the first and only time in the movie -- in this very scene? Does it not show a transformed Ennis?
Tpe ^f^
Yes, there was a slight change! But he wasn't so willingly agreed, he needed a time to decide about the wedding! Once you (I think) said that Junior's eyes reminded him of Jack's - I truly believe so!
I had hoped that he'd find some comfort with Jack's Ma... later I was thinking - you said that 2 years had passed, no sign of their companionship. Not very promising indeed!
Also, I found very important words in SS - Ennis saw no similarity between Jack and his Mother or father. I think that shows how distant in mind he was from them, how they couldn't replace even a little bit of Jack... I don't know, I'm just being pessimistic... :\'( :\'(
Sure that Jack's death has changed him (eg. he spoke with Lureen for the first time about Brokeback!), but IMO he was far away form any significant catharsis! And this minor changes mixed with his enormous pain doesn't seem so hopefull for me. ~)
Tpe, can you help me- when did he say "love"? By the end of the movie i am not rational any more :\'( and have a hard time to grasp each word! ^*()
:^^) :^^)
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Tpe ^f^
Yes, there was a slight change! But he wasn't so willingly agreed, he needed a time to decide about the wedding! Once you (I think) said that Junior's eyes reminded him of Jack's - I truly believe so!
I had hoped that he'd find some comfort with Jack's Ma... later I was thinking - you said that 2 years had passed, no sign of their companionship. Not very promising indeed!
Also, I found very important words in SS - Ennis saw no similarity between Jack and his Mother or father. I think that shows how distant in mind he was from them, how they couldn't replace even a little bit of Jack... I don't know, I'm just being pessimistic... :\'( :\'(
Sure that Jack's death has changed him (eg. he spoke with Lureen for the first time about Brokeback!), but IMO he was far away form any significant catharsis! And this minor changes mixed with his enormous pain doesn't seem so hopefull for me. ~)
Tpe, can you help me- when did he say "love"? By the end of the movie i am not rational any more :\'( and have a hard time to grasp each word! ^*()
:^^) :^^)
Well, this is certainly understandable. Yes, I think most of us here would agree that the ending didn't exactly resolve things -- and the fact that this disturbs us makes it all the more powerful. In fact, all the scenes starting from the LC down leads us into an emotional secent where the bottom is not reached even at the end.
I think Ennis mentioning the word "love" signified that he was no longer afraid to love. He never mentioned the word to Jack because he was afraid. By saying it, he was no longer afraid to love his daughter -- and he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.
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Well, this is certainly understandable. Yes, I think most of us here would agree that the ending didn't exactly resolve things -- and the fact that this disturbs us makes it all the more powerful. In fact, all the scenes starting from the LC down leads us into an emotional secent where the bottom is not reached even at the end.
I think Ennis mentioning the word "love" signified that he was no longer afraid to love. He never mentioned the word to Jack because he was afraid. By saying it, he was no longer afraid to love his daughter -- and he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.
Don't you think that A.P. made a perfect job playing with our emotions?
Ennis was so much afraid for himself all his life because of "that thing", but finally his fear came true in its worse shape -loosing Jack! jack has lived full life under the circumstances, but got killed (probably) in a way he never think of.
Ennis tried so hard to hold on to "normal" life but completely failed in every relationship (except maybe with daughters). Jack was willing to leaves anyone for Ennis, but maintain his relationships just fine.
Ennis tried so hard to control his life, but ultimately hadn't a slightest control over his own life, and most of anything - feeling for Jack!
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Don't you think that A.P. made a perfect job playing with our emotions?
Ennis was so much afraid for himself all his life because of "that thing", but finally his fear came true in its worse shape -loosing Jack! jack has lived full life under the circumstances, but got killed (probably) in a way he never think of.
Ennis tried so hard to hold on to "normal" life but completely failed in every relationship (except maybe with daughters). Jack was willing to leaves anyone for Ennis, but maintain his relationships just fine.
Ennis tried so hard to control his life, but ultimately hadn't a slightest control over his own life, and most of anything - feeling for Jack!
OT: Yes, perhaps too good a job -- as is attensted by the longevity of this forum! :)
I think the important thing that is highlighted especially in the scene before (and after) the LC is this: that they were never in control. :(
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OT: Yes, perhaps too good a job -- as is attensted by the longevity of this forum! :)
I think the important thing that is highlighted especially in the scene before (and after) the LC is this: that they were never in control. :(
Yes, tpe! ^f^
Each of them expressing the lack of control according to his own personality.
Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before LC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?
Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?
Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
:s)
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Dear Cleo, ^f^
today I watched BBM again, and this time I was crying from the very beginning of the movie. What to say? $)
FC was definitely a scene with a lots of hidden meanings and feelings, suppressed emotions, secrets, but most of all the scene where both of them express their devotion to each other, each in his own way - Ennis saying that he suffers all his life because of this secret love and Jack saying that he had sex with others feeding his unquenchable hunger for Ennis. Almost 20 years had passed, and as LJN said, everything was at the beginning as Ennis accept no changes, not even minor.
Breaking up with Cassie for me was only a sign that Ennis admits that nothing in his life is worthy of pursuing, except of his love for Jack. IMO he just did not want to waist so much energy about Cassie as she was definitely not the one who could give him a complete comfort. On the other side, she sure had her expectations from their relationship which he was not willing to fulfill.
The only thing that is little intriguing is the fact that you pointed out well: Ennis would never agree to share Jack with other man! That little fact make me believe that maybe, just MAYBE, Ennis would have give more from himself in November. On the other hand, why not meet earlier? If he was so jealous of Jack, he would've find a way to meet Jack way before November. Even loose his job if necessary.
Anyway, I will repeat that I firmly believe that this complicated relations are left to each of us to comprehend ourselves! No one can tell us what we see and how we feel about FC, or any other scene in the movie!
:^^)
Dear Loreen,
To cry watching BBM is something painful for me. I can understand what u go through and u r not alone in this.. we r there with u :ghug:
I think it wa right for Ennis to break up with Cassie and Ennis wanted that as he realized that it will take him no where and he is just not doing things right...Cassie did love him or atleast did feel for him and she realized that he was not considering a future so she felt it was appropritae to part ways...
As u pointed out that why dint he want to meet him earlier than Novemebr?
Hmm..when I think about it there can be many reasons. Firstly, Ennis wanted to be by himself for some time. I know this may not make sense to many as when there is a problem one likes to address it soon..I am like this but when I think of Ennis IMO he felt that in FC he showed Jack how vulnerable he was by breaking down and so he felt that he wanted to be by himself and keep himself busy with his work and meet Jack later and make things right...
Another thing that comes to my mind is sometimes one unintentionally takes things for granted..I mean Ennis knew that Jack could not quit him and loved him too much...He must have felt that considering the first reason I gave above he would meet Jack after some timegap and he took that fact for granted...He never must have thought in his dreams that it would be too late,..When I think of all this it gives me chills and one must always tell what he feels in his heart to another person before it is too late as u never know about life...These r all my opinions and as u said there can be many interpretaions to this...
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Dear Loreen,
To cry watching BBM is something painful for me. I can understand what u go through and u r not alone in this.. we r there with u :ghug:
I think it wa right for Ennis to break up with Cassie and Ennis wanted that as he realized that it will take him no where and he is just not doing things right...Cassie did love him or atleast did feel for him and she realized that he was not considering a future so she felt it was appropritae to part ways...
As u pointed out that why dint he want to meet him earlier than Novemebr?
Hmm..when I think about it there can be many reasons. Firstly, Ennis wanted to be by himself for some time. I know this may not make sense to many as when there is a problem one likes to address it soon..I am like this but when I think of Ennis IMO he felt that in FC he showed Jack how vulnerable he was by breaking down and so he felt that he wanted to be by himself and keep himself busy with his work and meet Jack later and make things right...
Another thing that comes to my mind is sometimes one unintentionally takes things for granted..I mean Ennis knew that Jack could not quit him and loved him too much...He must have felt that considering the first reason I gave above he would meet Jack after some timegap and he took that fact for granted...He never must have thought in his dreams that it would be too late,..When I think of all this it gives me chills and one must always tell what he feels in his heart to another person before it is too late as u never know about life...These r all my opinions and as u said there can be many interpretaions to this...
Dear Cleo ^f^,
I can understand your point of view about Ennis's wish to be alone for a while. That's possible. Furthermore, he was not man of hurry or rushing into things. The other reason is also logical. He knew that jack's gonna be there no matter what. Only this time, Jack was gone :\'(
It's just that - I'm interested how he coped with his jealousy. He knew that Jack is having sex with other men, and according to his reaction it hit him real hard. Even so, he stood not to see Jack until November... strange man! I believe that he was an extremely firm character. Not that he could control everything, but he was stubborn in his ideas, even when loosing it all.
I am sure that he showed the same amount of stubbornness after Jack died, only in different way. And with much more effort to cope with every day of emptiness. Poor Ennis! :\'( :\'(
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Dear Cleo ^f^,
I can understand your point of view about Ennis's wish to be alone for a while. That's possible. Furthermore, he was not man of hurry or rushing into things. The other reason is also logical. He knew that jack's gonna be there no matter what. Only this time, Jack was gone :\'(
It's just that - I'm interested how he coped with his jealousy. He knew that Jack is having sex with other men, and according to his reaction it hit him real hard. Even so, he stood not to see Jack until November... strange man! I believe that he was an extremely firm character. Not that he could control everything, but he was stubborn in his ideas, even when loosing it all.
I am sure that he showed the same amount of stubbornness after Jack died, only in different way. And with much more effort to cope with every day of emptiness. Poor Ennis! :\'( :\'(
Ennis did know that Jack is with other men and the fact that he was buring inside in the FC, it was obvious that he meant that Jack was only his....But I think at that time his hurt was so deep that he wanted to be by himself for sometime..Ennis lost all in his life..His wife, he does not live with his kids and the fact that Jack is sleeping with other men was too much for him to deal so he wanted to just be by himself for sometime and cope it that.
I agree with ya about Ennis stubborness..Ya,it felt so too..But he dint realize that time what it would cost him...He was stubborn with the faith that Jack was his and it will work out ..I mean he was like in Novemebr things will get better so he preferred waiting..He felt that Jack would never love another man or never be in a real relation with another man at all..Its hard for to digest too that Ennis dint take drastic steps to stop jack from having a physical relationship with other men..But one reason for this apart from his stubborness could be that he felt that he was at fault for not being there for Jack and that he was ashamed too...So he wanted to be by himself to see things more clearly...Well this reason can just be the fact looking at Ennis as person....Personally its hard for me as I am a very straight forward and I speak my heart out but when I put myself in Ennis shoes and see things through his eyes he preferred to give things time and he dint realize what it would cost him and inspite of the situations mentioned by u...
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Beautiful exchange from both of you, loreen and smartsonia!
I love the wonderful insight into Ennis.. He can be stubborn, ( excruciatingly rational.) at times lol. Your right, Ennis must leave the situation to think, rationalize and comparmentalizes every aspect of the event or situaion for a while. The "what if's and why nots. ( FNIT?) In short , he needs alot of space to breathe. It is almost an attempt to re- estalish a "comfort zone" in his life. Some place away from everything and everyone. At almost forty he looks back at 19 and into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt and why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack. Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him. He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free. A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.
It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :) $) :\'(
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Beautiful exchange from both of you, loreen and smartsonia!
I love the wonderful insight into Ennis.. He can be stubborn, ( excruciatingly rational.) at times lol. Your right, Ennis must leave the situation to think, rationalize and comparmentalizes every aspect of the event or situaion for a while. The "what if's and why nots. ( FNIT?) In short , he needs alot of space to breathe. It is almost an attempt to re- estalish a "comfort zone" in his life. Some place away from everything and everyone. At almost forty he looks back at 19 and into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt and why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack. Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him. He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free. A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.
It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :) $) :\'(
I loved your post..Ennis knew that Jack's love was a strong force that ruled his thoughts, feelings and the way he could divert that was to get married and he changed jobs as he feared of being found out...Jack's love made him what he is...When he told jack that because of him he is like this, it showed that love which is a force of nature is something which Ennis had no control over and he tried his best to fight that..he could not so he chose to stand it..His fears were too much and it took over his love for Jack which we wished dint happen...
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Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before FC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?
Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?
Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
:s)
These were my words in one of the previous posts ( I asked tpe about his opinion), and what's your opinion Cleo about it?
It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :) $) :\'(
Hm... this is interesting. And it goes back to my previous question - did they know that they love each other so very much? Or they should've said so!
Would one simple : %) between two of them be so powerful to disperse all difficulties between them and just let them fall into each other arms and stay there forever? Anyone? :s)
:^^)
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Yes, tpe! ^f^
Each of them expressing the lack of control according to his own personality.
Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before LC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?
Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?
Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
:s)
I think not fully -- particularly on Ennis's part. What is painful is perhaps Jack never got to see Ennis's change of heart. Ennis certainly loved Jack, but I think even Ennis didn't realize how deeply until it was too late. This is all to familiar in life, especially when there is a tendency to take people for granted. I think Ennis had come to that point during the LC scene. Even his statement "It's because of you..." is more about him than about both of them -- not intentional, but it shows us that he was still dominated by his own fears and concerns...
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I think not fully -- particularly on Ennis's part. What is painful is perhaps Jack never got to see Ennis's change of heart. Ennis certainly loved Jack, but I think even Ennis didn't realize how deeply until it was too late. This is all to familiar in life, especially when there is a tendency to take people for granted. I think Ennis had come to that point during the LC scene. Even his statement "It's because of you..." is more about him than about both of them -- not intentional, but it shows us that he was still dominated by his own fears and concerns...
Tpe, ^f^
Well said! I have to agree completely on this one! :*(
Maybe at those days man wasn't suppose to have feelings, so anything that was related with feelings even from distant places was tabu. That could be one possible explanation. Otherwise it's difficult to comprehend the way they explained to themselves so much passion and magnetic attraction they had for each other.
:^^)
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Tpe, ^f^
Well said! I have to agree completely on this one! :*(
Maybe at those days man wasn't suppose to have feelings, so anything that was related with feelings even from distant places was tabu. That could be one possible explanation. Otherwise it's difficult to comprehend the way they explained to themselves so much passion and magnetic attraction they had for each other.
:^^)
Yes, I felt that Ennis didn't think it was right to be too emotive, even with Jack. I can't help interpreting "It's because of you..." as partly Ennis's admission that because of Jack, he had lost control over his own emotions...
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Yes, I felt that Ennis didn't think it was right to be too emotive, even with Jack. I can't help interpreting "It's because of you..." as partly Ennis's admission that because of Jack, he had lost control over his own emotions...
... and loosing control was something he was always afraid of.
Sad and deep scene indeed! :\'( Our cognition of forthcoming tragedy makes it even more sad and hard to watch.
The only positive thing in that scene is loudly unsaid but very clear evidence that they're still so much in love! :\'(
E <^( J
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... and loosing control was something he was always afraid of.
Exactly: Jack made him more vulnerable.
Sad and deep scene indeed! :\'( Our cognition of forthcoming tragedy makes it even more sad and hard to watch.
The only positive thing in that scene is loudly unsaid but very clear evidence that they're still so much in love! :\'(
E <^( J
I think Jack realized that it was more than just a blame game in this scene. It was a sort of calling to account -- but it was also a moment of self-realization on their parts. Both learned something deeper about themselves at this moment of conflict.
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Do you think that they understood the depth of each other feelings before FC? Or after it, during time to prepare for November?
Or Ennis realized all after finding the shirts?
Maybe there's another thread about this, I don't know, but just wonder what were they thinking about other side's emotions, and when was the turning point, if any?
:s)
These were my words in one of the previous posts ( I asked tpe about his opinion), and what's your opinion Cleo about it?
Hm... this is interesting. And it goes back to my previous question - did they know that they love each other so very much? Or they should've said so!
Would one simple : %) between two of them be so powerful to disperse all difficulties between them and just let them fall into each other arms and stay there forever? Anyone? :s)
:^^)
I think that Ennis always knew Jack’s love for him..He knew that because jack always wanted to live with him and made attempts of staying in touch...But he felt the depths of Jack’s love when he saw the shirts and the fact that Jack is not physically around…Keeping a shirt stained with blood from a moment which was a fight between the two and keeping that as a symbol of undying and longing love actually showed us the shape of Jack’s heart…I think on that moment even Ennis realized the extent to which he loved Jack and he was so overwhelemed with that and all he wanted was to hug Jack and be with Jack but Jack went away and he could literally choke but he expressed it in 3 words .”Jack, I swear”...It showed what all he wanted to say but Jack definitely got the mesaage as to what Ennis felt by saying those 3 words…
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I think Jack realized that it was more than just a blame game in this scene. It was a sort of calling to account -- but it was also a moment of self-realization on their parts. Both learned something deeper about themselves at this moment of conflict.
Yes, but also about each other. It's just that they needed more time to put things where they are. We all sometimes need more time to understand the real meaning of other people's messages.
For them unfortunately there was no further chances to exchange their opinions and more important - express feelings for each other.
^f^
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I think that Ennis always knew Jack’s love for him..He knew that because jack always wanted to live with him and made attempts of staying in touch...But he felt the depths of Jack’s love when he saw the shirts and the fact that Jack is not physically around…Keeping a shirt stained with blood from a moment which was a fight between the two and keeping that as a symbol of undying and longing love actually showed us the shape of Jack’s heart…I think on that moment even Ennis realized the extent to which he loved Jack and he was so overwhelemed with that and all he wanted was to hug Jack and be with Jack but Jack went away and he could literally choke but he expressed it in 3 words .”Jack, I swear”...It showed what all he wanted to say but Jack definitely got the mesaage as to what Ennis felt by saying those 3 words…
Yes, I think so too -- although Ennis might have taken it against Jack that he had been having trysts with other men. Still, I think Ennis was aware of Jack's strong desire to live together, and frankly, I felt that later, he became too complacent and took it for granted. This was part of the tragic flaw in his character -- to seem indiferent to love when that was what all he himself wanted.
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Yes, but also about each other. It's just that they needed more time to put things where they are. We all sometimes need more time to understand the real meaning of other people's messages.
For them unfortunately there was no further chances to exchange their opinions and more important - express feelings for each other.
^f^
This is true. Specifically, I think that both of them were surprised at each other's fury. I think Ennis's final collapse and Jack's resignation showed their extreme vulnerability in the face of the other.
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Yes, I think so too -- although Ennis might have taken it against Jack that he had been having trysts with other men. Still, I think Ennis was aware of Jack's strong desire to live together, and frankly, I felt that later, he became too complacent and took it for granted. This was part of the tragic flaw in his character -- to seem indiferent to love when that was what all he himself wanted.
I think Ennis had an unconscious faith that Jack would just be his..He knew that Jack felt strongly about him and what they had was special...Just like ya I also feel that he took that for granted...Ennis also wanted Jack but his fears dint let him stay with him and he himself drew the line...In the FC when he gets mad at Jack for sleeping with other men it was his jelousy as well as love for him that got him so dam angry....Jack only belonged to him and Ennis hated the thought of Jack with someone else..However in the final scene Ennis IMO forgives Jack for that as he himeslf was not there with him so many times and he forgived himself for that...The most difficult thing for anyone to ever do...
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I think Ennis had an unconscious faith that Jack would just be his..He knew that Jack felt strongly about him and what they had was special...Just like ya I also feel that he took that for granted...Ennis also wanted Jack but his fears dint let him stay with him and he himself drew the line...In the FC when he gets mad at Jack for sleeping with other men it was his jelousy as well as love for him that got him so dam angry....Jack only belonged to him and Ennis hated the thought of Jack with someone else..However in the final scene Ennis IMO forgives Jack for that as he himeslf was not there with him so many times and he forgived himself for that...The most difficult thing for anyone to ever do...
I never felt that after Jack died, Ennis even gave a thought to his infidelity. IMO that part of their relationship was absolutely not important under the circumstances. To forgive himself is a hardest part for Ennis. Jack's death and the living piece of their love embodied in two shirts have changed his life forever. In a way nothing and no one mattered any more. :\'(
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Well, this is certainly understandable. Yes, I think most of us here would agree that the ending didn't exactly resolve things -- and the fact that this disturbs us makes it all the more powerful. In fact, all the scenes starting from the LC down leads us into an emotional secent where the bottom is not reached even at the end.
I think Ennis mentioning the word "love" signified that he was no longer afraid to love. He never mentioned the word to Jack because he was afraid. By saying it, he was no longer afraid to love his daughter -- and he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack.
I agree Thomas...great post!
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At almost forty he looks back at 19 and into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt and why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack. Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him. He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free. A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.
It's sad, this scene is, but I love the passion it it. With the jealosy, anger, frustration and stinging words, it was fight to the finish for love....of course they could've made it simple if one em just said it. " I love ya dumbass!! :) $) :\'(
you got me good here, huh :(
vanessa
I never felt that after Jack died, Ennis even gave a thought to his infidelity. IMO that part of their relationship was absolutely not important under the circumstances. To forgive himself is a hardest part for Ennis. Jack's death and the living piece of their love embodied in two shirts have changed his life forever. In a way nothing and no one mattered any more. :\'(
yep. :( :( :(
vanessa
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I love the wonderful insight into Ennis.. He can be stubborn, ( excruciatingly rational.) at times lol. Your right, Ennis must leave the situation to think, rationalize and comparmentalizes every aspect of the event or situaion for a while. The "what if's and why nots. ( FNIT?) In short , he needs alot of space to breathe. It is almost an attempt to re- estalish a "comfort zone" in his life. Some place away from everything and everyone. At almost forty he looks back at 19 and into most of his adult life and sees whatever he's accomplished, or has'nt and why that road , though winding,always leads back to Jack. Jack was always there. in the mix somehow.
Ennis loved him, he also knows that Jack was at the heart of the matter when they parted ways in "63". It was because of Jack that he felt he had to prove he was different and marry Alma,. It was because of Jack that he could'nt find real satisfaction in it . It's because of Jack, he could'nt hold down a job for too long as it maybe become an interference in seeing him. He just quit them, It was because of Jack that he fell in love and needed Jack. I think he found being Jack worth it all but if only he could've gotten to a place sooner where he could embrace Jack's love to the fullest and set them both free. A love existed, some bond that could never be broken.
Beautiful way to sum up the enire movie.
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I think Ennis had an unconscious faith that Jack would just be his..He knew that Jack felt strongly about him and what they had was special...Just like ya I also feel that he took that for granted...Ennis also wanted Jack but his fears dint let him stay with him and he himself drew the line...In the FC when he gets mad at Jack for sleeping with other men it was his jelousy as well as love for him that got him so dam angry....Jack only belonged to him and Ennis hated the thought of Jack with someone else..However in the final scene Ennis IMO forgives Jack for that as he himeslf was not there with him so many times and he forgived himself for that...The most difficult thing for anyone to ever do...
It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever. I think Ennis realized this too late.
In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency? Not that he did it consciously, mind you. Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?
Well, maybe this is far-fetched. Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...
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I never felt that after Jack died, Ennis even gave a thought to his infidelity. IMO that part of their relationship was absolutely not important under the circumstances. To forgive himself is a hardest part for Ennis. Jack's death and the living piece of their love embodied in two shirts have changed his life forever. In a way nothing and no one mattered any more. :\'(
So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that infidelity ceased to become an issue with Ennis after Jack's death. Am I correct?
To tie it in with the subject at hand, I would extend it by saying that Ennis blaming Jack for what became of him ALSO became immaterial.
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I agree Thomas...great post!
Thanks, atalley. :^^)
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So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that infidelity ceased to become an issue with Ennis after Jack's death. Am I correct?
To tie it in with the subject at hand, I would extend it by saying that Ennis blaming Jack for what became of him ALSO became immaterial.
Sure, Tpe!
NOTHING mattered any more! Jack was gone, and I believe that only the things Ennis himself had missed to do in the past, became a huge burden in his heart.
Jack became an intangible memory in Ennis's heart that no Earthly mud can reach. :\'(
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It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever. I think Ennis realized this too late.
In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency? Not that he did it consciously, mind you. Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?
Well, maybe this is far-fetched. Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...
Do you reffer to Jack's complacency here? :s)
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Do you reffer to Jack's complacency here? :s)
No, I refer to Ennis's complacency -- of taking Jack and his love for granted.
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No, I refer to Ennis's complacency -- of taking Jack and his love for granted.
S**t, that's hard! ???
Well, I think not! But, the whole reaction and esspecially those Ennis's words ARE difficult to explain completely. I'll think about it! :s)
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It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever. I think Ennis realized this too late.
In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency? Not that he did it consciously, mind you. Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?
Well, maybe this is far-fetched. Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...
It's defintly a possibilty tpe and I agree with both posts including smartsonia's line about Ennis drawing the line himself.
What preceded the line is Ennis's response to Jack saying " I wish I knew how to quit you"". Ennis says " so why don't you then, why don't you just let me be?". It's amazing that Jack could back Ennis up against the wall, drive him to the edge of the cliff with mere words. Felt himself having to sh-t or get off the pot...
Ennis had literally built his life around Jack and now he saw Jack discounting him in a sense over his own sacrifices, but after all this time Jack felt Ennis owed him more for his own. ,but I think Ennis was feeling a little under-appreciated himself. I feel Ennis felt that all he was capable of giving was unsatisfactory to Jack.
Jack was giving him no wiggle room, he was either gonna have to make some kind of commitment to Jack or bolt, and Ennis was prepared to do niether. I do feel that at that moment Ennis felt himself under attack and Jack was speaking alot in past tense about what could've been and the thought of Jack slipping away from him was so scary. but Ennis was by no means an innocent victim. He was a more than willing participant in getting them to the place they were at.
Imo, they were both dancing around the big purple gorilla in the room, the fact that they loved each other and nothing they felt , said, or did was gonna change anything about it.
They both knew that the staus quo was no longer acceptable. Something had to give, but who or what?
And as always, Ennis must remove himself from the tight corner he found himself in. Jack has just unloaded on him with both barrels... once more he has to distance himself, absorb the stinging indictment of Jack's words, think, rationalize, and sort each aspect of the situation out, and the result this time was sending of a postcard to meet Jack at Pine Creek. A decision had to be made, but time was'nt on his side this time. fate had made the decision for him. Perhaps had he known this was the last moments he'd have with Jack, he would have made things right. ..But how could he have known? So sad.MO
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It's defintly a possibilty tpe and I agree with both posts including smartsonia's line about Ennis drawing the line himself.
What preceded the line is Ennis's response to Jack saying " I wish I knew how to quit you"". Ennis says " so why don't you then, why don't you just let me be?". It's amazing that Jack could back Ennis up against the wall, drive him to the edge of the cliff with mere words. Felt himself having to sh-t or get off the pot...
Ennis had literally built his life around Jack and now he saw Jack discounting him in a sense over his own sacrifices, but after all this time Jack felt Ennis owed him more for his own. ,but I think Ennis was feeling a little under-appreciated himself. I feel Ennis felt that all he was capable of giving was unsatisfactory to Jack.
Jack was giving him no wiggle room, he was either gonna have to make some kind of commitment to Jack or bolt, and Ennis was prepared to do niether. I do feel that at that moment Ennis felt himself under attack and Jack was speaking alot in past tense about what could've been and the thought of Jack slipping away from him was so scary. but Ennis was by no means an innocent victim. He was a more than willing participant in getting them to the place they were at.
Imo, they were both dancing around the big purple gorilla in the room, the fact that they loved each other and nothing they felt , said, or did was gonna change anything about it.
They both knew that the staus quo was no longer acceptable. Something had to give, but who or what?
And as always, Ennis must remove himself from the tight corner he found himself in. Jack has just unloaded on him with both barrels... once more he has to distance himself, absorb the stinging indictment of Jack's words, think, rationalize, and sort each aspect of the situation out, and the result this time was sending of a postcard to meet Jack at Pine Creek. A decision had to be made, but time was'nt on his side this time. fate had made the decision for him. Perhaps had he known this was the last moments he'd have with Jack, he would have made things right. ..But how could he have known? So sad.MO
Very nicely said there, AF. A good question: How could he have known?
It's kind of mesmerizing to think of just how far back this fate had grounded itself in their relationship. For 20 years it was basically: How can we make this work? Of course if they'd have met the answer directly there wouldn't even be 20 shared years, right? Let me put it clearer. It's because of Jack. It's because only Ennis had his predetermined answer, only he saw Earl first hand. In a sense I find it a painful yet artful irony that Jack is the one that died -- Not that the story would have worked had Ennis. :-\\
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Very nicely said there, AF. A good question: How could he have known?
It's kind of mesmerizing to think of just how far back this fate had grounded itself in their relationship. For 20 years it was basically: How can we make this work? Of course if they'd have met the answer directly there wouldn't even be 20 shared years, right? Let me put it clearer. It's because of Jack. It's because only Ennis had his predetermined answer, only he saw Earl first hand. In a sense I find it a painful yet artful irony that Jack is the one that died -- Not that the story would have worked had Ennis. :-\\
OT, I just mentioned the same thing in one of my previous posts - that the fear Ennis had through all his life come in its worst shape - Jack's death!
And I always go back to AP's genius story. She just put there 2 ping-pong players, and perfectly decided which one will hit the ball and under what circumstances. No mistake! And each stroke hits us directly into the heart! :\'(
They mirrored one another in every way. In this case, one's fear becomes other's destiny. Can not be more genius than that!
And more devastating! :\'(
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OT, I just mentioned the same thing in one of my previous posts - that the fear Ennis had through all his life come in its worst shape - Jack's death!
And I always go back to AP's genius story. She just put there 2 ping-pong players, and perfectly decided which one will hit the ball and under what circumstances. No mistake! And each stroke hits us directly into the heart! :\'(
They mirrored one another in every way. In this case, one's fear becomes other's destiny. Can not be more genius than that!
And more devastating! :\'(
I totally agree, loreen ^f^
Also what is crystal clear to me is: Both of their greatest fear was of the other's death.
It is interesting that I would even magnify myself this way, but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth at the end when Ennis' character is finally brought to a head, as of the 2 stained shirts. The double stained heart. It's not easy to watch Ennis button up his own heart. It's like someone saw Jack and Ennis way up in the clouds, and shot an arrow and pierced them together; they break through the window; they land in a closet; and that's where they grow old and die -- they certainly couldn't on Brokeback Mountain.
That said, I think Ennis opens up the closet and goes back as means of survival. If only to keep Jack happy. Sounds like the Ennis I know.
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I totally agree, loreen ^f^
Also what is crystal clear to me is: Both of their greatest fear was of the other's death.
It is interesting that I would even magnify myself this way, but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth at the end when Ennis' character is finally brought to a head, as of the 2 stained shirts. The double stained heart. It's not easy to watch Ennis button up his own heart. It's like someone saw Jack and Ennis way up in the clouds, and shot an arrow and pierced them together; they break through the window; they land in a closet; and that's where they grow old and die -- they certainly couldn't on Brokeback Mountain.
That said, I think Ennis opens up the closet and goes back as means of survival. If only to keep Jack happy. Sounds like the Ennis I know.
Well, :s) I gave it the best shot and I think I got your post! Not easy for me, as your posts are more like a metaphors, and my English is more like inadequate. :)
One question:what do you mean by
"but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth " ??? This I can't quite understand.
With "...the 2 stained shirts. The double stained heart. It's not easy to watch Ennis button up his own heart." I agree. I never thought of those shirts as of their hearts, but it's so true. So simple symbolism but at the same time so deep.
Uh, this made me sad again....
:\'(
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One question:what do you mean by
"but for Ennis I saw the symbols of this truth. And for Jack I felt my own perspective. And that I always felt like Jack makes it hard to escape the ultimate truth " ??? This I can't quite understand.
What I mean: With Brokeback Mountain I immediately recognized Jack's fear of (Ennis' death) losing Ennis, but it took longer for me to recognize the same in Ennis. I think they feared the same thing ultimately but had very different understandings of it. I may even suggest Jack's perception is extroverted, whereas Ennis' is introverted. A key to a lock in a sense.
And of course I think it's clear at the end that Ennis had always been (too) focused on (Jack's) death. But I feel Jack acted on the fear, to nearly cancel it out, bringing Ennis to the opposite end to fear -- a place of love.
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What I mean: With Brokeback Mountain I immediately recognized Jack's fear of (Ennis' death) losing Ennis, but it took longer for me to recognize the same in Ennis. I think they feared the same thing ultimately but had very different understandings of it. I may even suggest Jack's perception is extroverted, whereas Ennis' is introverted. A key to a lock in a sense.
And of course I think it's clear at the end that Ennis had always been (too) focused on (Jack's) death. But I feel Jack acted on the fear, to nearly cancel it out, bringing Ennis to the opposite end to fear -- a place of love.
Well, I definitely didn't go that deep. In fact, at this point, and this level of my understanding of the movie, which is always changing of course, I see no such a thing.
In Ennis I see an irrationally magnified fear which was growing together with him since 9, and together with his wish to be with Jack. Unfortunately that fear grew bigger than his wish. Finally his fear becomes the truth in a most devastating way - of losing someone whom he (at last realized) loved more then himself.
Did Jack feel fear? I don't know. He was too occupied with his needs, his loving and affectionate nature. If he ever had that fear, it was hidden somewhere deep, covered with his love for Ennis. I can say that he understood Ennis's fear coming from childhood trauma as he himself had more than one (childhood trauma). Their misfortune childhood was one of the main reasons why they match together so well, and escaping to / from that childhood meant a lot for both. So, there Jack found an excuse for Ennis and accepted his fear.
Jack's fears? Well, I'm not so sure, but maybe it'll come to me....
:t) :cr)
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Well, I definitely didn't go that deep. In fact, at this point, and this level of my understanding of the movie, which is always changing of course, I see no such a thing.
In Ennis I see an irrationally magnified fear which was growing together with him since 9, and together with his wish to be with Jack. Unfortunately that fear grew bigger than his wish. Finally his fear becomes the truth in a most devastating way - of losing someone whom he (at last realized) loved more then himself.
Did Jack feel fear? I don't know. He was too occupied with his needs, his loving and affectionate nature. If he ever had that fear, it was hidden somewhere deep, covered with his love for Ennis. I can say that he understood Ennis's fear coming from childhood trauma as he himself had more than one (childhood trauma). Their misfortune childhood was one of the main reasons why they match together so well, and escaping to / from that childhood meant a lot for both. So, there Jack found an excuse for Ennis and accepted his fear.
Jack's fears? Well, I'm not so sure, but maybe it'll come to me....
:t) :cr)
Maybe ;)
:cr)
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It reminds me of the line from Shelter; to paraphrase: you don't have someone forever. I think Ennis realized this too late.
In this scene, where he seems to be blaming Jack for making him who he is, I wonder whether he instinctively blamed Jack for his complacency? Not that he did it consciously, mind you. Perhaps it was a subconscious plea?
Well, maybe this is far-fetched. Still, I wanted to point out the possibility...
I think it was subconscious...Ennis never wanted to hurt Jack but he himself was shattered in FC and he became too vulnerable...Out of frustration and so much regret and loss, Ennis felt that he is so today because of his love...I am not talking about balming but about the fact that love was a force of nature that he dint have a control over.
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Sure, Tpe!
NOTHING mattered any more! Jack was gone, and I believe that only the things Ennis himself had missed to do in the past, became a huge burden in his heart.
Jack became an intangible memory in Ennis's heart that no Earthly mud can reach. :\'(
So in this context, we can view (with hindsight) the statement "It's because of you..." as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy -- in the sense that it was really Jack who defined the later Ennis, at least by Jack's death...
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It's defintly a possibilty tpe and I agree with both posts including smartsonia's line about Ennis drawing the line himself.
What preceded the line is Ennis's response to Jack saying " I wish I knew how to quit you"". Ennis says " so why don't you then, why don't you just let me be?". It's amazing that Jack could back Ennis up against the wall, drive him to the edge of the cliff with mere words. Felt himself having to sh-t or get off the pot...
Ennis had literally built his life around Jack and now he saw Jack discounting him in a sense over his own sacrifices, but after all this time Jack felt Ennis owed him more for his own. ,but I think Ennis was feeling a little under-appreciated himself. I feel Ennis felt that all he was capable of giving was unsatisfactory to Jack.
Jack was giving him no wiggle room, he was either gonna have to make some kind of commitment to Jack or bolt, and Ennis was prepared to do niether. I do feel that at that moment Ennis felt himself under attack and Jack was speaking alot in past tense about what could've been and the thought of Jack slipping away from him was so scary. but Ennis was by no means an innocent victim. He was a more than willing participant in getting them to the place they were at.
Imo, they were both dancing around the big purple gorilla in the room, the fact that they loved each other and nothing they felt , said, or did was gonna change anything about it.
They both knew that the staus quo was no longer acceptable. Something had to give, but who or what?
And as always, Ennis must remove himself from the tight corner he found himself in. Jack has just unloaded on him with both barrels... once more he has to distance himself, absorb the stinging indictment of Jack's words, think, rationalize, and sort each aspect of the situation out, and the result this time was sending of a postcard to meet Jack at Pine Creek. A decision had to be made, but time was'nt on his side this time. fate had made the decision for him. Perhaps had he known this was the last moments he'd have with Jack, he would have made things right. ..But how could he have known? So sad.MO
Beautiful post, aintfoolin! I think this summarizes so many aspects of the way I feel about this scene. And the image that comes to mind here is a reluctant Ennis pushed to a corner where he can neither retreat or advance. Essentially, Jack was forcing him to make a choice, and his blaming Jack for making him what he is is ironic, in this context. Was Jack responsible for Ennis's indecision? Perhaps he was by simply acquiescing to Ennis on the crucial points, but this is hardly fair to Jack, especially know when he simply won't accept further ambiguity from Ennis.
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I think it was subconscious...Ennis never wanted to hurt Jack but he himself was shattered in FC and he became too vulnerable...Out of frustration and so much regret and loss, Ennis felt that he is so today because of his love...I am not talking about balming but about the fact that love was a force of nature that he dint have a control over.
I think so too, although I think the comment about Mexico was deliberate. Ennis was stung by Jack's reminder of his rejection of the sweet life, and wanted to lash out...
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Maybe ;)
:cr)
OK OT,
I gave up! What were the symptoms of Jack's fear? Give me a hint! :-\\
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So in this context, we can view (with hindsight) the statement "It's because of you..." as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy -- in the sense that it was really Jack who defined the later Ennis, at least by Jack's death...
Yes Tpe ^f^,
even I could say that you're aiming too far with this, but can not say anything against it - because it's the true!
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I think so too, although I think the comment about Mexico was deliberate. Ennis was stung by Jack's reminder of his rejection of the sweet life, and wanted to lash out...
I agree that the thought of Jack's reminder and the fact that he went to Mexico was enough to push Ennis over the edge and he just could not be composed anymore but had to show to Jack as to how miserable he has become...
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No, I refer to Ennis's complacency -- of taking Jack and his love for granted.
I owe you this one, but still haven't yes/no answer.
I was thinking more like: Ennis's love was all over him, he was aware that love and uncontrollable feelings for Jack all his life. I believe that this fact and his cognition of those feelings was the blame he put on Jack. In fact Ennis wasn't really blaming Jack, maybe in his way he was saying:
Jack, I love you all my life, and that love has destroyed me. I was always afraid that someone will figure out what you mean to me and how much I desperately need you. I kept nothing for myself, no job, no family, no friends... I am nothing, I am nowhere because of you. This is my lifetime sacrifice, and now you're not satisfied with it. I just CAN'T give more than that, but for you it's not enough. You need others?... Do you love those others the same you love me, do you belong to them the same you belong to me? I can't stand it any more, Jack.... my love! :\'(
Well, that's how I see his words. Of course they are a part of much bigger picture where Jack also had something to say, but I still keep that anxious scene as the one where they expressed love... in the best way they could! $)
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Yes Tpe ^f^,
even I could say that you're aiming too far with this, but can not say anything against it - because it's the true!
I agree that this is a bit aiming too far, but I can't help thinking about the irony of it all. :)
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I agree that the thought of Jack's reminder and the fact that he went to Mexico was enough to push Ennis over the edge and he just could not be composed anymore but had to show to Jack as to how miserable he has become...
In many ways, this scene and the accompanying "It's because of you..." marks the nadir of Ennis in the story up till then. There was no dignity, and there was a great deal of misery.
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I owe you this one, but still haven't yes/no answer.
I was thinking more like: Ennis's love was all over him, he was aware that love and uncontrollable feelings for Jack all his life. I believe that this fact and his cognition of those feelings was the blame he put on Jack. In fact Ennis wasn't really blaming Jack, maybe in his way he was saying:
Jack, I love you all my life, and that love has destroyed me. I was always afraid that someone will figure out what you mean to me and how much I desperately need you. I kept nothing for myself, no job, no family, no friends... I am nothing, I am nowhere because of you. This is my lifetime sacrifice, and now you're not satisfied with it. I just CAN'T give more than that, but for you it's not enough. You need others?... Do you love those others the same you love me, do you belong to them the same you belong to me? I can't stand it any more, Jack.... my love! :\'(
Well, that's how I see his words. Of course they are a part of much bigger picture where Jack also had something to say, but I still keep that anxious scene as the one where they expressed love... in the best way they could! $)
But this is exactly my point: Ennis knew full well that THAT love didn't destroy him; it made him a better person, and that he wasn't being totally honest with himself here. Ennis did all of this not just for Jack's sake but also for his own happiness. He knew it from the start, but was unwilling to seize it with both hands until it was too late.
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But this is exactly my point: Ennis knew full well that THAT love didn't destroy him; it made him a better person, and that he wasn't being totally honest with himself here. Ennis did all of this not just for Jack's sake but also for his own happiness. He knew it from the start, but was unwilling to seize it with both hands until it was too late.
I am not so sure about Ennis's knowledge of his own happiness at this point. I'm even less sure that Ennis was a better person because of Jack's love because he destroyed all his other relationships, he lived a lonely and sad life. All that for a few times a year of sunlight that was heating his soul - Jack's love. Ennis never opened his heart enough to receive this pure love energy. In that way he was loosing the both sides - his life in Riverton and "sweet life" with Jack.
I believe that his words were honest at the time. What he had just heard was the worst thing that he could've imagine - Jack wasn't cherishing their love in the same way he was. Jack was fooling around with other men. Moreover, Jack expressed his extreme dissatisfaction with the rhythm of their relationship. That was devastating, and he just explode, in a way talking more to himself than to Jack.... IMO :s)
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And it's curious to see how Ennis was almost joking when he knew that Jack had a relationship with a woman; but,on the contrary,he reacted as a jeaulous lover when the "rival" was another man,and even,when he realised that there has been many others one-night men.
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And it's curious to see how Ennis was almost joking when he knew that Jack had a relationship with a woman; but,on the contrary,he reacted as a jeaulous lover when the "rival" was another man,and even,when he realised that there has been many others one-night men.
Alicia, am so glad to read your posts dear..so glad u r here :)
I agree with ya...Both of them have been married once and they had a 4 year reunion inspite of that..they knew that their wives could not replace the love they had for ecah other...I feel Ennis could never bear the thought that Jack was with other men as what they shared was something so very special that Ennis could never stand Jack sharing that with another man...
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Alicia, am so glad to read your posts dear..so glad u r here :)
I agree with ya...Both of them have been married once and they had a 4 year reunion inspite of that..they knew that their wives could not replace the love they had for ecah other...I feel Ennis could never bear the thought that Jack was with other men as what they shared was something so very special that Ennis could never stand Jack sharing that with another man...
Good point! Ennis's and Jack's sensation of their love was completely different.
For Ennis it was a top military secret, and the secrecy of their love made that love even more special and exciting - for Ennis it was a retreat from the sadness and senseless of his Riverton life, it was a shiny pearl hidden in the shellfish and he never wanted to share with anyone. Not only because of fear, but because he didn't want to contaminate the purity of their mutual emotions.
Jack was a different story - he NEEDED love by all means. Other men was just a poor replacement for Ennis, but even so he needed that.
But let me reverse the situation - how would Jack react if he found out that Ennis had other lover(s)? :s)
Would he think of it as normal? Or he'd be jealous too? And hurt? Or would feel relieved for two of them would be even in that case ??
:s)
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Good point! Ennis's and Jack's sensation of their love was completely different.
For Ennis it was a top military secret, and the secrecy of their love made that love even more special and exciting - for Ennis it was a retreat from the sadness and senseless of his Riverton life, it was a shiny pearl hidden in the shellfish and he never wanted to share with anyone. Not only because of fear, but because he didn't want to contaminate the purity of their mutual emotions.
Jack was a different story - he NEEDED love by all means. Other men was just a poor replacement for Ennis, but even so he needed that.
But let me reverse the situation - how would Jack react if he found out that Ennis had other lover(s)? :s)
Would he think of it as normal? Or he'd be jealous too? And hurt? Or would feel relieved for two of them would be even in that case ??
:s)
Thankyou Loreen ^f^
I agree with what u have said...
If we reverse the situation and Jack finds out that Ennnis has been sleeping with other men he would definitely be hurt and jealous..It's the same for Jack in the sense that would not want to share Ennis with any other man..Even though he was sleeping with other men, he was not proud of it..As u said it was a poor replacement..None of that could fulfill his emotional need and need for love because his love was Ennis...Both of them would suffer by the thought that there is another man in the picture because both loved each other so much and dint wana lose that...
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I completely agee with this smsartsonia, omg, Ennis sleeping with other men while denying Jack would totally devastate Jack...but Jack did'nt fear, because this would never happen. not only would'nt he risk exposure of screcy, he strongly condidered Jack his partner...lil darlin, suggesting a protective element involved in his love and feelings for Jack.It was something Ennis considered unicley theirs. Jack and him , him and Jack against the world.
Beautiful post, aintfoolin! I think this summarizes so many aspects of the way I feel about this scene. And the image that comes to mind here is a reluctant Ennis pushed to a corner where he can neither retreat or advance. Essentially, Jack was forcing him to make a choice, and his blaming Jack for making him what he is is ironic, in this context. Was Jack responsible for Ennis's indecision? Perhaps he was by simply acquiescing to Ennis on the crucial points, but this is hardly fair to Jack, especially know when he simply won't accept further ambiguity from Ennis.
Did Ennis feel Jack was respsonsible for his indecision?
It does seem as though Ennis is blaming Jack for something, but what really? A part of him seems to be saying he's "nuthin" and "nowhere" because of Jack, but on the other hand, what's he really saying? Jack was'nt meetin out there in the woods by himself. Ennis did whatever he had to do to be there with him. Still in denial, he was torn between guilt and fear and there's no easy way out of that for em. Stuck between the truth and the lie. He knew he was reponsible ( for the most part) for Jack's hurt and frustration, , and the fact that Jack had resorted to Mexico, he just could'nt stand for Jack to say it out loud, to paint his sad part of the picture , the summation of their 20 yrs together like he did. yet felt himself powerless to stop it. he coulld'nt really blame Jack, without seeing his own faults .. So, it does'nt matter what he says , he could never let go, imo, he loved Jack deeply, his hurt filled tears over the thought of loosing him were evidence of it. My take.
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I owe you this one, but still haven't yes/no answer.
I was thinking more like: Ennis's love was all over him, he was aware that love and uncontrollable feelings for Jack all his life. I believe that this fact and his cognition of those feelings was the blame he put on Jack. In fact Ennis wasn't really blaming Jack, maybe in his way he was saying:
Jack, I love you all my life, and that love has destroyed me. I was always afraid that someone will figure out what you mean to me and how much I desperately need you. I kept nothing for myself, no job, no family, no friends... I am nothing, I am nowhere because of you. This is my lifetime sacrifice, and now you're not satisfied with it. I just CAN'T give more than that, but for you it's not enough. You need others?... Do you love those others the same you love me, do you belong to them the same you belong to me? I can't stand it any more, Jack.... my love! :\'(
Well, that's how I see his words. Of course they are a part of much bigger picture where Jack also had something to say, but I still keep that anxious scene as the one where they expressed love... in the best way they could! $)
Wonderful post!
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Wonderful post!
^f^ :t)
:^^)
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I am not so sure about Ennis's knowledge of his own happiness at this point. I'm even less sure that Ennis was a better person because of Jack's love because he destroyed all his other relationships, he lived a lonely and sad life. All that for a few times a year of sunlight that was heating his soul - Jack's love. Ennis never opened his heart enough to receive this pure love energy. In that way he was loosing the both sides - his life in Riverton and "sweet life" with Jack.
I believe that his words were honest at the time. What he had just heard was the worst thing that he could've imagine - Jack wasn't cherishing their love in the same way he was. Jack was fooling around with other men. Moreover, Jack expressed his extreme dissatisfaction with the rhythm of their relationship. That was devastating, and he just explode, in a way talking more to himself than to Jack.... IMO :s)
He would have destroyed all his relationships inevitably, IMO, because he married for the wrong reasons. He was lonely and sad not because of Jack or Alma or the kids -- he was lonely because he didn't have the courage to overcome his fears and live a life of love that everyone was entitled to.
Jack's death opened his eyes to this entitlement. To love is a choice, and not a command.
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And it's curious to see how Ennis was almost joking when he knew that Jack had a relationship with a woman; but,on the contrary,he reacted as a jeaulous lover when the "rival" was another man,and even,when he realised that there has been many others one-night men.
Was Ennis also perhaps blaming Jack for this jealousy?
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Was Ennis also perhaps blaming Jack for this jealousy?
Or perhaps he was blaming himself to having produced Jack's actions somehow and being jeaulous for them...
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Ennis was lashing out at Jack's revelation, it is the worst thing you can hear from the person you love and at that moment he was kicked in the gut and stabbed in the heart, enough to bring him to his knees and cry out. It's a horrible feeling.
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Ennis was lashing out at Jack's revelation, it is the worst thing you can hear from the person you love and at that moment he was kicked in the gut and stabbed in the heart, enough to bring him to his knees and cry out. It's a horrible feeling.
There is no doubt about that...It chockes me :\'(
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He would have destroyed all his relationships inevitably, IMO, because he married for the wrong reasons. He was lonely and sad not because of Jack or Alma or the kids -- he was lonely because he didn't have the courage to overcome his fears and live a life of love that everyone was entitled to.
Jack's death opened his eyes to this entitlement. To love is a choice, and not a command.
Very nicely said! :cr)
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He would have destroyed all his relationships inevitably, IMO, because he married for the wrong reasons. He was lonely and sad not because of Jack or Alma or the kids -- he was lonely because he didn't have the courage to overcome his fears and live a life of love that everyone was entitled to.
Jack's death opened his eyes to this entitlement. To love is a choice, and not a command.
He was caught up in his fears so tight that he was miserable and he could not make himself just live the life that would truely make him happy...Its very unfortuante and painful to see that..Ennis always loved
Jack and wanted them to be together but to live together was something that Ennis could not face...
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Ennis was practically crying in this scene for the first time... :\'( I think this is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie specially when Jack conforts Ennis and he tries to push him off... The worst part is that we find out about Jack's death exactly right after we feel that things might start to work out for Ennis and Jack. :\'(
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Ennis was practically crying in this scene for the first time... :\'( I think this is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie specially when Jack conforts Ennis and he tries to push him off... The worst part is that we find out about Jack's death exactly right after we feel that things might start to work out for Ennis and Jack. :\'(
That's the biggest tragedy :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Or perhaps he was blaming himself to having produced Jack's actions somehow and being jeaulous for them...
An interesting POV, MPJ! A bit convoluted, perhaps, but people are indeed complicated...
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Ennis was lashing out at Jack's revelation, it is the worst thing you can hear from the person you love and at that moment he was kicked in the gut and stabbed in the heart, enough to bring him to his knees and cry out. It's a horrible feeling.
Well, one can say for certainly that Jack also suffered a great deal. Sometimes, it is a true act of bravery to say such things to the people you love the most. Because it hurts you as much as it hurts them.
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Very nicely said! :cr)
Thanks orangetruck. I was out sick yesterday and missed reading all the discussion threads!
He was caught up in his fears so tight that he was miserable and he could not make himself just live the life that would truely make him happy...Its very unfortuante and painful to see that..Ennis always loved
Jack and wanted them to be together but to live together was something that Ennis could not face...
I think that Ennis knew that he himself eas to blame for much of the current state of things. His accusation was not without merit, but it certainly didn't admit to any complicity on his part...
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Ennis was practically crying in this scene for the first time... :\'( I think this is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie specially when Jack conforts Ennis and he tries to push him off... The worst part is that we find out about Jack's death exactly right after we feel that things might start to work out for Ennis and Jack. :\'(
Well, I never thought of FC like some important turning point in their relationship (except of course the most devastating outcome - Jack's death), but thinking twice - yes sure! A lot of things had been going on there - secrets, acusations, tears, quarrel... Some result was expected in November indeed. But in the terms of dealing with their relationship we saw nothing - instead, Ennis had to deal with his own feelings, as dear Jack was already not there... That of course came in one of the worst moments.
But as I said, AP was pushing our buttons in the genius way leaving us no space to enjoy, rather to contemplate the depth of their love and lost chances of their lives. :\'(
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Ennis was practically crying in this scene for the first time... :\'( I think this is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie specially when Jack conforts Ennis and he tries to push him off... The worst part is that we find out about Jack's death exactly right after we feel that things might start to work out for Ennis and Jack. :\'(
This was the irony of it all.
The power of this scene may also come from hindsight -- that this was to be their last confrontation. I think had Ennis had known what was to happen to Jack, he might have checked himself. But in so doing, perhaps this would have greatly diminished the power of this scene.
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Well, I never thought of FC like some important turning point in their relationship (except of course the most devastating outcome - Jack's death), but thinking twice - yes sure! A lot of things had been going on there - secrets, acusations, tears, quarrel... Some result was expected in November indeed. But in the terms of dealing with their relationship we saw nothing - instead, Ennis had to deal with his own feelings, as dear Jack was already not there... That of course came in one of the worst moments.
But as I said, AP was pushing our buttons in the genius way leaving us no space to enjoy, rather to contemplate the depth of their love and lost chances of their lives. :\'(
Yeah, I think that's really what made the movie so powerful... It would of been great to see Ennis and Jack live together finally happily... But the reason the movie made such an impact on people was because of the shocking conclution of finding out what happend to Jake and then Ennis's life being destroyed... :\'(
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Yeah, I think that's really what made the movie so powerful... It would of been great to see Ennis and Jack live together finally happily... But the reason the movie made such an impact on people was because of the shocking conclution of finding out what happend to Jake and then Ennis's life being destroyed... :\'(
I completely agree,BM ¡ :clap: And we all never had arrived to understand the powerful lesson of the movie; be yourself and fight for what or who you want.
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I completely agree,BM ¡ :clap: And we all never had arrived to understand the powerful lesson of the movie; be yourself and fight for what or who you want.
:ghug:Exactly myprivatejack! I love the moral of the story alot! <^(
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Yeah, I think that's really what made the movie so powerful... It would of been great to see Ennis and Jack live together finally happily... But the reason the movie made such an impact on people was because of the shocking conclution of finding out what happend to Jake and then Ennis's life being destroyed... :\'(
I have always felt the same..If Ennis and Jack would have lived happily ever after then we would all be rejoicing and there would be a complete different topic as to how they would happily live after and it would give us the satisfaction that even though they suffered when they were young at the end they did live the rest of their lives together....But none of that happened....It dint even come close..We get some hope when Ennis wants to meet Jack after the FC but then the worst tragedy takes place and the worst plight falls on all of us and we r all left into pieces ..Jack is no more....We struggle so much as the pain is huge of them not being together...
We can learn never to take love for granted and accept it when it is in front of us and to cherish every moment as u never know how long it will remain...
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I have always felt the same..If Ennis and Jack would have lived happily ever after then we would all be rejoicing and there would be a complete different topic as to how they would happily live after and it would give us the satisfaction that even though they suffered when they were young at the end they did live the rest of their lives together....But none of that happened....It dint even come close..We get some hope when Ennis wants to meet Jack after the FC but then the worst tragedy takes place and the worst plight falls on all of us and we r all left into pieces ..Jack is no more....We struggle so much as the pain is huge of them not being together...
We can learn never to take love for granted and accept it when it is in front of us and to cherish every moment as u never know how long it will remain...
A agree, The news of Jack's death so so sudden and abrupt that it really killed me from inside! :\'(
I love the message you mentioned about cherishing love! <^( That's right, Ennis's took Jack's love for grandted and should of been with him for all those years! :\'(
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Well, one can say for certainly that Jack also suffered a great deal. Sometimes, it is a true act of bravery to say such things to the people you love the most. Because it hurts you as much as it hurts them.
Yes all that hurt had been simmering in Jack for a long time until it finally boiled over and Ennis' abrupt emotions of pain and betrayal during that scene show he didn't fully realize how shattered Jack had been all those years.
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Yes all that hurt had been simmering in Jack for a long time until it finally boiled over and Ennis' abrupt emotions of pain and betrayal during that scene show he didn't fully realize how shattered Jack had been all those years.
Perhaps Jack should have answered Ennis's accusation by a similar accusation: it's because of you that I'm like this.
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Perhaps Jack should have answered Ennis's accusation by a similar accusation: it's because of you that I'm like this.
Maybe, but at the moment he was already ... how to say politely -p***ed of.. angry? He had never before stood up against Ennis as during FC. That was already too much for him IMO. Poor Jack! :(
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Maybe, but at the moment he was already ... how to say politely -p***ed of.. angry? He had never before stood up against Ennis as during FC. That was already too much for him IMO. Poor Jack! :(
I agree. In a way, when Jack said "I did, once..." he was pretty much telling Ennis the same thing.
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I agree. In a way, when Jack said "I did, once..." he was pretty much telling Ennis the same thing.
These words were so painful, not only for Ennis but also for us, as we knew how true they were and how Jack was miserable for being refused so many times... :\'(
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Perhaps Jack should have answered Ennis's accusation by a similar accusation: it's because of you that I'm like this.
I think Jack saying that he wished he could quit him was itself so dam huge....all these years he was so tolerent and then he said something so strong..If he would tell Ennis that he was so because of Ennis then Ennis would have been double miserable..When Ennis said that because of Jack he is like this, Jack saw him breaking down and then he saw that this is more than Ennis can handle and inspite of hurting so much he himself came to Ennis to hug him...That was something great...
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I think Jack saying that he wished he could quit him was itself so dam huge....all these years he was so tolerent and then he said something so strong..If he would tell Ennis that he was so because of Ennis then Ennis would have been double miserable..When Ennis said that because of Jack he is like this, Jack saw him breaking down and then he saw that this is more than Ennis can handle and inspite of hurting so much he himself came to Ennis to hug him...That was something great...
Yes, he put Ennis' pain above his and wanted to comfort him, he loved him so much even when he was so angry at him.
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These words were so painful, not only for Ennis but also for us, as we knew how true they were and how Jack was miserable for being refused so many times... :\'(
And the look on Jack's face was so full of hurt and reproach. No wonder Ennis was so stung.
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I think Jack saying that he wished he could quit him was itself so dam huge....all these years he was so tolerent and then he said something so strong..If he would tell Ennis that he was so because of Ennis then Ennis would have been double miserable..When Ennis said that because of Jack he is like this, Jack saw him breaking down and then he saw that this is more than Ennis can handle and inspite of hurting so much he himself came to Ennis to hug him...That was something great...
Yes, he put Ennis' pain above his and wanted to comfort him, he loved him so much even when he was so angry at him.
It was really huge for me to see how Jack reacted to Ennis's accusation: it was so full of compassion, and he didn't argue with Ennis about it. The hug he gave in rssponse to this neither confirmed nor denied it. I think, the point was that both of them had become so much a part of each other that to hurt one was to hurt the other.
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It was really huge for me to see how Jack reacted to Ennis's accusation: it was so full of compassion, and he didn't argue with Ennis about it. The hug he gave in rssponse to this neither confirmed nor denied it. I think, the point was that both of them had become so much a part of each other that to hurt one was to hurt the other.
That is what attached us so much to this story: Ennis is Jack's love, hope, pain, longing, meaning of his life.... Jack is Ennis's love, hope, pain, reason to live... Each time we see Jack - we see what he means to Ennis and vice versa. $)
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That is what attached us so much to this story: Ennis is Jack's love, hope, pain, longing, meaning of his life.... Jack is Ennis's love, hope, pain, reason to live... Each time we see Jack - we see what he means to Ennis and vice versa. $)
And so this is why Ennis's accusation was very hurtful also -- not thast it qwasn't true; it was hurtful because it sort of didn't acknowledge that he was like that because he needed Jack.
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They say that the best defense is a good attack,and that's what Ennis tried to do in this scene,IMO; complaining himself while he put the blame on Jack for having made him "be like this".It's kind of telling him:-It's because of you that I'm nobody,I'm nowhere,waiting for you faithful while you're spending your time with some prostitutes without bearing in mind what I can feel or think".An hidden way of telling him,really:-It's because of you that I'm a gay; it's because of you I'm just like that".Everything and any thing before recognise to himself and before his lover that,as Thomas say,"he was like that because he needed Jack".And I'd add that still less before recognising that he was desperately in love with Jack,maybe even more than he could believe and admit,and much before their first night together...
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I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack." I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin. He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts. Am I way off on this one? ???
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I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack." I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin. He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts. Am I way off on this one? ???
Atalley ^f^,
you are not way off IMO. There was a lots of things in Ennis's mind at that moment. One of them was indeed his wish to be with Jack as more as possible, and denying this wish to himself was devastating for his emotions. We shouldn't forget though that just seconds before he broke down, he had faced angry Jack for the first time in 20 years, he had faced Jack's infidelity in the worst possible way, Jack's wish to quit him... He loved Jack and those things were devastated for him, so they were also contained in his words: "I can't stand this any more!"
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They say that the best defense is a good attack,and that's what Ennis tried to do in this scene,IMO; complaining himself while he put the blame on Jack for having made him "be like this".It's kind of telling him:-It's because of you that I'm nobody,I'm nowhere,waiting for you faithful while you're spending your time with some prostitutes without bearing in mind what I can feel or think".An hidden way of telling him,really:-It's because of you that I'm a gay; it's because of you I'm just like that".Everything and any thing before recognise to himself and before his lover that,as Thomas say,"he was like that because he needed Jack".And I'd add that still less before recognising that he was desperately in love with Jack,maybe even more than he could believe and admit,and much before their first night together...
Thanks MPJ. You are right -- we all have this gut reaction to lash out when we are pushed into a corner. Do you also notice a hint of self-pity in all this? I think Ennis may have been saying this as an expression of how inadequate he felt, and perhaps not necessarily a pinpoint attack on Jack.
Still, I do feel that it was an admission of love -- of powerlessness against the love he had for Jack.
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I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack." I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin. He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts. Am I way off on this one? ???
I don't think you are off. I do agree that Ennis's outburst was very much an indication of how deep his frustration was. We know that deep inside, he wanted to be with Jack, but he felt inadequate to cope with his own fears and insecuritites. WE can also read this as a sign of Ennis's frustration with himself. This doesn't necessarily contradict anything that has been discussed previously.
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I look at this scene a little differently; I think because Ennis follows this with "I can't stand this no more Jack." I take this to mean that he agrees that they have too little time together; that this relationship is wearing him thin. He wants to meet more often, but is still afraid of the C & C Operation and doesn't know how to resolve these conflicts. Am I way off on this one? ???
Thanks MPJ. You are right -- we all have this gut reaction to lash out when we are pushed into a corner. Do you also notice a hint of self-pity in all this? I think Ennis may have been saying this as an expression of how inadequate he felt, and perhaps not necessarily a pinpoint attack on Jack.
Still, I do feel that it was an admission of love -- of powerlessness against the love he had for Jack.
IMO,nobody has entered into any contradiction with their opinions here. %( When I said that Ennis somehow was "attacking" Jack,isn't implicitly in this attack a way of admitting-in a very Ennis style-there was an huge mess between his feelings and his sensibleness?.Isn't it a way of admitting he was in this way for loving Jack,and complaining because this one was !@#$ other men when he felts so lonely?But also,complaining because,as he loved Jack so deeply,he admitted not being able to offer him anything else than a few days of company each three or four months?.
Thomas,I have never said that,in spite of this attack as a self defense,for me the whole scene is not a powerful love's declaration; from his jealousy attack when knowing Jack was to Mexico, to his final break down,passing by this phrase we're discussing.As powerful as a love's declaration as,I repeat your words,powerless he felt before all this,that clearly surpassed him.In any case,if there's somebody with contradictions,this is Ennis.
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Yes, he put Ennis' pain above his and wanted to comfort him, he loved him so much even when he was so angry at him.
Exactly,that is what true love is all about and that is what we exactly saw...Even though Jack was himself so much hurting he saw Ennis hurting and that meant too much and that was something that melted his wounded heart in a second and he went to comfort him...
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Exactly,that is what true love is all about and that is what we exactly saw...Even though Jack was himself so much hurting he saw Ennis hurting and that meant too much and that was something that melted his wounded heart in a second and he went to comfort him...
The thing we feel so attractive about this movie among other are those little gestures. Nothing said, but everything done! In that way their love seemed even more beautiful! <^(
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It was really huge for me to see how Jack reacted to Ennis's accusation: it was so full of compassion, and he didn't argue with Ennis about it. The hug he gave in rssponse to this neither confirmed nor denied it. I think, the point was that both of them had become so much a part of each other that to hurt one was to hurt the other.
It was like two bodies in one soul and Jack felt himself being chocked after seeing Ennis hurting so much..He could not take that...Even though he had his own hurts it was as if a part of him was bleeding seeing Ennis so miserable..
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The thing we feel so attractive about this movie among other are those little gestures. Nothing said, but everything done! In that way their love seemed even more beautiful! <^(
Actions speak louder than words...From the start of the film in their little small ways they showed love..Let it be Ennis buying soup for Jack or Jack cleaning his wounds...What hurts is that when it needed to be spoken it dint happen..If that would have happened then things would have been different and the FC would not have been so painful and full of regrets..I think we learn alot from this to never take love for granted and to always acknowledge and speak things through when it needs to be done before it is too late...
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Actions speak louder than words...From the start of the film in their little small ways they showed love..Let it be Ennis buying soup for Jack or Jack cleaning his wounds...What hurts is that when it needed to be spoken it dint happen..If that would have happened then things would have been different and the FC would not have been so painful and full of regrets..I think we learn alot from this to never take love for granted and to always acknowledge and speak things through when it needs to be done before it is too late...
Exactly,Cleo ¡ :clap: Even if actions speak louder than words,there're some moments when we must put into words what we wish,fear or regret.Specially in this last case,it's not advisable to save something inside oneself,because it almost always finishes by bursting,as it happenned in the FC.And Jack and,specially,Ennis,saved too many things during too many years inside themselves... :(
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Exactly,Cleo ¡ :clap: Even if actions speak louder than words,there're some moments when we must put into words what we wish,fear or regret.Specially in this last case,it's not advisable to save something inside oneself,because it almost always finishes by bursting,as it happenned in the FC.And Jack and,specially,Ennis,saved too many things during too many years inside themselves... :(
I agree Alicia..
Ennis learned this the hard way though..He would have never imagined of losing Jack...I think that we learn that always say what needs to be said before it is too late...I think u never know where life can take u...It hurts to see something turning out to be like the way it did with Ennis and Jack as we all know that if something was told earlier then each would not go through the turmoil that they did...
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I agree Alicia..
Ennis learned this the hard way though..He would have never imagined of losing Jack...I think that we learn that always say what needs to be said before it is too late...I think u never know where life can take u...It hurts to see something turning out to be like the way it did with Ennis and Jack as we all know that if something was told earlier then each would not go through the turmoil that they did...
I quote this ¡. O0 The most tragic of all this is that so many things were waiting to be told and never did,for fear of that could happen what happenned at the end...
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IMO,nobody has entered into any contradiction with their opinions here. %( When I said that Ennis somehow was "attacking" Jack,isn't implicitly in this attack a way of admitting-in a very Ennis style-there was an huge mess between his feelings and his sensibleness?.Isn't it a way of admitting he was in this way for loving Jack,and complaining because this one was !@#$ other men when he felts so lonely?But also,complaining because,as he loved Jack so deeply,he admitted not being able to offer him anything else than a few days of company each three or four months?.
Thomas,I have never said that,in spite of this attack as a self defense,for me the whole scene is not a powerful love's declaration; from his jealousy attack when knowing Jack was to Mexico, to his final break down,passing by this phrase we're discussing.As powerful as a love's declaration as,I repeat your words,powerless he felt before all this,that clearly surpassed him.In any case,if there's somebody with contradictions,this is Ennis.
I know that MPJ. It was implicit in what you had said previously. Consider what I said as an amplification of your own feelings. :)
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It was like two bodies in one soul and Jack felt himself being chocked after seeing Ennis hurting so much..He could not take that...Even though he had his own hurts it was as if a part of him was bleeding seeing Ennis so miserable..
Both of them were hurting. In love as well as in hurt, they are one.
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Both of them were hurting. In love as well as in hurt, they are one.
i agree...in love they always felt the same and ya the hurt was such that each struggled their own way, fighting the odds their whole lives...In the FC they both opened up their hearts frustrations but the love was a constant factor and even in the hurt, love was the reason that it choked them so much....
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I feel sub-conciously Ennis hated the fears within himself the most. To say "it's because a Jack " is simply saying that he has sacrificed his whole life for the love he had for him, but it was in reality the fears he carried with him since 1963 that has stood in the way of a full, complete acceptance of his love for Jack and a sweet life with him. I feel he hated the control his fears had over him and how it spread to Jack, affecting him, hurting him as well. All Jack did was present Ennis with the love of his life. The rest was up to Ennis to come to grips with this fear that seemed to overcome him. " because a you Jack, I'm nuthin, nowhere" may very well have a ring of truth to it, but only in the context that Ennis's fears have kept him from having a full realization of what a sweet life with Jack could be like, if it could be at all. i think it's what he could not accept at that point. After all the years together, Ennis was making it personal. perhaps Ennis was targeting the real culprit, the fears here in himself more than blaming Jack just for loving him. How could he blame Jack for a love so dear and right?
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i agree...in love they always felt the same and ya the hurt was such that each struggled their own way, fighting the odds their whole lives...In the FC they both opened up their hearts frustrations but the love was a constant factor and even in the hurt, love was the reason that it choked them so much....
I thionk so too. Even in the most heated moments in the Last Confrontation, we see that it was their love for eaxch other that drove them -- jealousy is indeed a manifestation of love, as much as it is of hate.
I feel sub-conciously Ennis hated the fears within himself the most. To say "it's because a Jack " is simply saying that he has sacrificed his whole life for the love he had for him, but it was in reality the fears he carried with him since 1963 that has stood in the way of a full, complete acceptance of his love for Jack and a sweet life with him. I feel he hated the control his fears had over him and how it spread to Jack, affecting him, hurting him as well. All Jack did was present Ennis with the love of his life. The rest was up to Ennis to come to grips with this fear that seemed to overcome him. " because a you Jack, I'm nuthin, nowhere" may very well have a ring of truth to it, but only in the context that Ennis's fears have kept him from having a full realization of what a sweet life with Jack could be like, if it could be at all. i think it's what he could not accept at that point. After all the years together, Ennis was making it personal. perhaps Ennis was targeting the real culprit, the fears here in himself more than blaming Jack just for loving him. How could he blame Jack for a love so dear and right?
Exactly. I think Ennis was trying to tell Jack that it wasn't easy for him either, and that he had sacrificed a great deal for his love. Again, I really feel that deep-down, Ennis also wanted the Sweet Life, but thought that doing it in the open would only expose both of them to danger. It is the element of sacrifice that he wanted Jack to see, but I am sure he was also aware that Jack rebuked him because the latter didn't care about the danger, and resented the fact that Ennis didn't look at things the same way.
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I can't but agree with all the reasons that have been exposed here up to now.Only adding that,for me,this "It's because of you,Jack..." is,above all,a complete love's declaration.Nothing else,even with jealousy or self-complaining "attacks",or with misunderstanding of Jack's reasons for going to Mexico or wherever...A complete,passionate and desperate love's declaration.
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I can't but agree with all the reasons that have been exposed here up to now.Only adding that,for me,this "It's because of you,Jack..." is,above all,a complete love's declaration.Nothing else,even with jealousy or self-complaining "attacks",or with misunderstanding of Jack's reasons for going to Mexico or wherever...A complete,passionate and desperate love's declaration.
Among the other things in complexity of FC, "It's because of you,Jack..." is a love declaration expressed in a suppressed way that Ennis was only capable of. Nothing more he could say, but under the storm of Jack's words - nothing less! :\'(
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MPJ...thank you for saying what I feel but didn't know how to put it in words.
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MPJ...thank you for saying what I feel but didn't know how to put it in words.
:t) to you,Anita ¡ But I have only said what can't be expressed with words precisely; only feel and shared... :)
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We should also note that the juxtaposition of the Dozy Embrace in the middle of all this serves as a subtle commentary in response to Ennis's accusation. In the DE, we pretty much see the other side of Jack's effect on Ennis -- and that side shows the deeply loving and caring Ennis.
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We should also note that the juxtaposition of the Dozy Embrace in the middle of all this serves as a subtle commentary in response to Ennis's accusation. In the DE, we pretty much see the other side of Jack's effect on Ennis -- and that side shows the deeply loving and caring Ennis.
I always believed that Ennis was a loving and caring person all the time, but instead of sharing and freely giving his feelings to others (particularly Jack), he always tend to bury them inside of himself. And that's a killer for anyone's soul - never have a freedom to love and to show that love!
I think that it's similar with anger or sadness. If one is not able to take that out, eventually it will kill him emotionally.
Unfortunately, Ennis had to pay the highest possible price to learn how to give love! After paying the price, he couldn't give the most beautiful love inside of him to his only lover, cos Jack WAS that price! :\'(
Poor Ennis! :\'(
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I always believed that Ennis was a loving and caring person all the time, but instead of sharing and freely giving his feelings to others (particularly Jack), he always tend to bury them inside of himself. And that's a killer for anyone's soul - never have a freedom to love and to show that love!
I think that it's similar with anger or sadness. If one is not able to take that out, eventually it will kill him emotionally.
Unfortunately, Ennis had to pay the highest possible price to learn how to give love! After paying the price, he couldn't give the most beautiful love inside of him to his only lover, cos Jack WAS that price! :\'(
Poor Ennis! :\'(
I would like to think that Jack understood that Ennis always loved him. True, the love wasn't perfect, but it was enough to make the difference. On Ennis's side, I would like to think that Jack's love also made a difference. "It's because of you that I'm like this" gains added depth when we think in these terms...
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You are so right Thomas. They knew in their hearts what the truth was. There would be no one else that could fill their need for each other. :c)
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You are so right Thomas. They knew in their hearts what the truth was. There would be no one else that could fill their need for each other. :c)
What Ennis said about he was "nothing" and "nowhere" must have also hurt Jack deeply. After all, I would have thought that to Jack, Ennis -- the person he loved the most -- wasn't "nothing"; wherever Ennis was certainly wasn't "nowhere". Would he have been willing to do the brutal drive from Texas to Wyoming and back for "nothing"? Would it be worth to do such a drive to go "nowhere"?
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What Ennis said about he was "nothing" and "nowhere" must have also hurt Jack deeply. After all, I would have thought that to Jack, Ennis -- the person he loved the most -- wasn't "nothing"; wherever Ennis was certainly wasn't "nowhere". Would he have been willing to do the brutal drive from Texas to Wyoming and back for "nothing"? Would it be worth to do such a drive to go "nowhere"?
Beautiful and moving post tpe! :\'(
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Wow Thomas...I never looked at it that way. I thought that he was saying that he changed jobs a lot & didn't really have a place to call home so he could meet Jack on the Mt. whenever he got a postcard. When I think about it, though, he knew that they would get together at the same times every yr., so he should've been able to schedule ahead. No matter how hurtful Ennis was to Jack, Jack was always the comforter. This is one reason I love Jack so much. No matter how much pain he was in himself, he was there being strong for Ennis.
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Wow Thomas...I never looked at it that way. I thought that he was saying that he changed jobs a lot & didn't really have a place to call home so he could meet Jack on the Mt. whenever he got a postcard. When I think about it, though, he knew that they would get together at the same times every yr., so he should've been able to schedule ahead. No matter how hurtful Ennis was to Jack, Jack was always the comforter. This is one reason I love Jack so much. No matter how much pain he was in himself, he was there being strong for Ennis.
Yes Attaley, that is the main reason for Jack's character to be so attractive - he persisted in pursuing love no matter what. And, as my answer to tpe's previous post -obviously he knew that Ennis loved him! Otherwise he would've never persisted so stubbornly about their meetings. Changes in Ennis? Well possibly after FC or after dear Jack died, but in both cases -too late! :\'(
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Thanks loreen and atalley.
atalley, I have never considered that -- that the meetings could have scheduled things ahead. In any case, I thought it was consistent that Jack chose to comfort Ennis in response to Ennis's accusation of Jack making him into the person he was.
I echo what loreen has said above. I think this is also the main reason why Ennis loved Jack.
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Yes Attaley, that is the main reason for Jack's character to be so attractive - he persisted in pursuing love no matter what. And, as my answer to tpe's previous post -obviously he knew that Ennis loved him! Otherwise he would've never persisted so stubbornly about their meetings. Changes in Ennis? Well possibly after FC or after dear Jack died, but in both cases -too late! :\'(
I completely agree Loreen, Jack knew Ennis loved him..The 3 words "I love you" were never said...Jack held onto it..He kept fighting for them and Ennis knew that but dint reciprocate to it too much and then he did realize that but it was too late,.Jack was gone :\'(
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I completely agree Loreen, Jack knew Ennis loved him..The 3 words "I love you" were never said...Jack held onto it..He kept fighting for them and Ennis knew that but dint reciprocate to it too much and then he did realize that but it was too late,.Jack was gone :\'(
Can we say that Jack knew more about Ennis who never open himself than Ennis ever knew about Jack, who was an open book and always showed everything out? :(
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I don't know. My hunch is that Jack understood where Ennis was coming from and the limitations set by his own fears -- at least as far as the words of the ss go when it describes the dozy embrace. Ennis, in contrast, perhaps understood the necessity of keeping their love "safe", but didn't understand why Jack had to put the "sweet life" above everything else -- until the end.
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I don't know. My hunch is that Jack understood where Ennis was coming from and the limitations set by his own fears -- at least as far as the words of the ss go when it describes the dozy embrace. Ennis, in contrast, perhaps understood the necessity of keeping their love "safe", but didn't understand why Jack had to put the "sweet life" above everything else -- until the end.
In a way, that is similar to my opinion.
Maybe he understood what "sweet life" means adn why Jack wanted it. I think that he wanted it himself, but he shut the door of acceptance -- until the end. When he was ready to open the door, no Jack to enter the sweet life with him ... could it be sadder than this? :\'(
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Can we say that Jack knew more about Ennis who never open himself than Ennis ever knew about Jack, who was an open book and always showed everything out? :(
I think Ennis knew Jack loved him but he dint realize that intensity till he saw the shirts..As for Jack he knew that Ennis loved him and knew his fears too well. Its heart breaking to see that Ennis realized the intesnity too late..
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In a way, that is similar to my opinion.
Maybe he understood what "sweet life" means adn why Jack wanted it. I think that he wanted it himself, but he shut the door of acceptance -- until the end. When he was ready to open the door, no Jack to enter the sweet life with him ... could it be sadder than this? :\'(
I think Ennis knew Jack loved him but he dint realize that intensity till he saw the shirts..As for Jack he knew that Ennis loved him and knew his fears too well. Its heart breaking to see that Ennis realized the intesnity too late..
I think the realization of that love on both sides was imperfect while they lived. In a sense, I think Jack reconciled himself to the imperfection -- as noted in the ss text for the Dozy Embrace. I think he had come to the realization that love -- though it is imperfect -- is enough.
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I think the realization of that love on both sides was imperfect while they lived. In a sense, I think Jack reconciled himself to the imperfection -- as noted in the ss text for the Dozy Embrace. I think he had come to the realization that love -- though it is imperfect -- is enough.
I absolutely agree with the first part -both sides accepted an imperfect realization of love. Cos we (me too) often forgot that Jack agreed to meet Ennis once in a while in the middle of nowhere. He hoped that Ennis would accept more one day, but it was Jack who never put a real pressure on Ennis - never refuse to come, drove 14 hours to be rejected like a school boy, always so servile and benevolent. His tacitly acceptance of the situation also contributed the imperfection, even it wasn't willingly.
But if I understood well, you think that even imperfect, Jack thought that love is enough?? I wouldn't agree with this, cos the inability to be with Ennis made him a very unsatisfied and bitter person. I believe that he accepted it but very unwillingly.
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I agree with you, Loreen. The more the yrs. flew by, the less satisfied Jack was with "once in awhile"...especially after Ennis' divorce.
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I absolutely agree with the first part -both sides accepted an imperfect realization of love. Cos we (me too) often forgot that Jack agreed to meet Ennis once in a while in the middle of nowhere. He hoped that Ennis would accept more one day, but it was Jack who never put a real pressure on Ennis - never refuse to come, drove 14 hours to be rejected like a school boy, always so servile and benevolent. His tacitly acceptance of the situation also contributed the imperfection, even it wasn't willingly.
But if I understood well, you think that even imperfect, Jack thought that love is enough?? I wouldn't agree with this, cos the inability to be with Ennis made him a very unsatisfied and bitter person. I believe that he accepted it but very unwillingly.
I base it off of what is written in the ss:
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
A. Proulx, Brokeback Mountain.
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I think the realization of that love on both sides was imperfect while they lived. In a sense, I think Jack reconciled himself to the imperfection -- as noted in the ss text for the Dozy Embrace. I think he had come to the realization that love -- though it is imperfect -- is enough.
I base it off of what is written in the ss:
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.[/i]
A. Proulx, Brokeback Mountain.
Hm... I see his reconciliation with the situation, with the possibility that his patience would never be payed off and their "sweet life" would remain his "sweet dream". And this is said immidiately time after the FC, after he got rejected once again. But I don't see that he thought that it is enough. If so, he wouldn't talk to John Twist about some other man to come to LF. I believe that he really really wanted that "sweet life" with Ennis, and that was the only thing that could make him happy.
OT: The part that cuts my heart is "their separate and difficult lives"... OMG, how that hurts! :\'(
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Hm... I see his reconciliation with the situation, with the possibility that his patience would never be payed off and their "sweet life" would remain his "sweet dream". And this is said immidiately time after the FC, after he got rejected once again. But I don't see that he thought that it is enough. If so, he wouldn't talk to John Twist about some other man to come to LF. I believe that he really really wanted that "sweet life" with Ennis, and that was the only thing that could make him happy.
OT: The part that cuts my heart is "their separate and difficult lives"... OMG, how that hurts! :\'(
In other threads, I had noted that moving on with Randall only meant that he had stopped believing that he could ever get Ennis to agree on the sweet life. This is consistent with the quote from the ss: "let be, let be." There is no bitterness there (although we see weariness in Jack's face in his final shot in the movie.) The quote from the ss showed clearly that for Jack, the love was enough. In other words, the love was no longer dependent on whether or not Ennis would join him in a "sweet life." This is why he was able to move on. Because the key to it all is in the said quote: that for all the imprefections of their bond, he would love Ennis even as he made plans to live with somebody else.
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In other threads, I had noted that moving on with Randall only meant that he had stopped believing that he could ever get Ennis to agree on the sweet life. This is consistent with the quote from the ss: "let be, let be." There is no bitterness there (although we see weariness in Jack's face in his final shot in the movie.) The quote from the ss showed clearly that for Jack, the love was enough. In other words, the love was no longer dependent on whether or not Ennis would join him in a "sweet life." This is why he was able to move on. Because the key to it all is in the said quote: that for all the imprefections of their bond, he would love Ennis even as he made plans to live with somebody else.
I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall. I disliked him from the very beginning.
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I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall. I disliked him from the very beginning.
Gosh I do too. Whenever I think about it, it just makes me sad. How Jack was able to move on, but Ennis couldn't. When he finds the shirts and breaks down because of it... The shirts symbollized what they had had. Jack moving on is beyond painful, and very saddening especially to Ennis. I'm pretty sure that he does see that, but their love was so powerful and true. Randall is the character I despire second to Jack's wife. Although, I won't get into it much longer, as I know I have gotten off topic, but if Ennis could have stayed with Jack, there wouldn't have been any Randall or his wife - but the two of them together, with their damn sweet life!
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I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall. I disliked him from the very beginning.
Gosh I do too. Whenever I think about it, it just makes me sad. How Jack was able to move on, but Ennis couldn't. When he finds the shirts and breaks down because of it... The shirts symbollized what they had had. Jack moving on is beyond painful, and very saddening especially to Ennis. I'm pretty sure that he does see that, but their love was so powerful and true. Randall is the character I despire second to Jack's wife. Although, I won't get into it much longer, as I know I have gotten off topic, but if Ennis could have stayed with Jack, there wouldn't have been any Randall or his wife - but the two of them together, with their damn sweet life!
I am glad that some Brokies agree with me on this one! :)
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I get very depressed when I think of Jack making plans to live with Randall. I disliked him from the very beginning.
Gosh I do too. Whenever I think about it, it just makes me sad. How Jack was able to move on, but Ennis couldn't. When he finds the shirts and breaks down because of it... The shirts symbollized what they had had. Jack moving on is beyond painful, and very saddening especially to Ennis. I'm pretty sure that he does see that, but their love was so powerful and true. Randall is the character I despire second to Jack's wife. Although, I won't get into it much longer, as I know I have gotten off topic, but if Ennis could have stayed with Jack, there wouldn't have been any Randall or his wife - but the two of them together, with their damn sweet life!
Interesting. Personally, I don't like or dislike Randall that much.
But yes, echoing back the original topic, could Jack have said the same thing to Ennis: that it was because of him (Ennis) that he (Jack) was like this?
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Interesting. Personally, I don't like or dislike Randall that much.
But yes, echoing back the original topic, could Jack have said the same thing to Ennis: that it was because of him (Ennis) that he (Jack) was like this?
Absolutely.Even I believe that he could say this phrase with more reasons than Ennis himself.As a matter of fact,it's Jack who had undergone a greater change in his hopes,illusions,emotions and,as a result,his own way of being,far from this young and boyish sheep shepard who sang Pentecostal hymns.
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Interesting. Personally, I don't like or dislike Randall that much.
But yes, echoing back the original topic, could Jack have said the same thing to Ennis: that it was because of him (Ennis) that he (Jack) was like this?
I think that maybe at the point when Ennis said those accusatory words to Jack, Ennis he wasn't capable of thinking anything else, but how sad and betrayed he felt in his life struggle between the fear and desire to be with Jack. At that very moment even if Jack said the same words to him, Ennis wouldn' t react, as he was much too upset.
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Absolutely.Even I believe that he could say this phrase with more reasons than Ennis himself.As a matter of fact,it's Jack who had undergone a greater change in his hopes,illusions,emotions and,as a result,his own way of being,far from this young and boyish sheep shepard who sang Pentecostal hymns.
Change for worse, unfortunately! :(
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I think that maybe at the point when Ennis said those accusatory words to Jack, Ennis he wasn't capable of thinking anything else, but how sad and betrayed he felt in his life struggle between the fear and desire to be with Jack. At that very moment even if Jack said the same words to him, Ennis wouldn' t react, as he was much too upset.
I feel the same dear..I think Ennis had reached a point where he saw what love has made him..His love for jack was so strong, deep and genuine that it actually ruled his life...His fears accompanied him and he lost his wife and so much but he still was with Jack...Jack and Ennis knew this very well that Ennis loved Jack with no limits and this love made him what he is today..All this must be going on in Ennis mind and if Jack would tell him that he is so because of Ennis then Ennis would have not reacted more than he did because he had been saturated with hurt and he would just walk away like he did..He would want the space and time... :\'(
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Absolutely.Even I believe that he could say this phrase with more reasons than Ennis himself.As a matter of fact,it's Jack who had undergone a greater change in his hopes,illusions,emotions and,as a result,his own way of being,far from this young and boyish sheep shepard who sang Pentecostal hymns.
I pretty much agree with you. He had traversed the greater distance in life, and perhaps in a true sense, what he became what Ennis could never become. Ironically, Ennis was a huge part of that journey.
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I think that maybe at the point when Ennis said those accusatory words to Jack, Ennis he wasn't capable of thinking anything else, but how sad and betrayed he felt in his life struggle between the fear and desire to be with Jack. At that very moment even if Jack said the same words to him, Ennis wouldn' t react, as he was much too upset.
I feel the same dear..I think Ennis had reached a point where he saw what love has made him..His love for jack was so strong, deep and genuine that it actually ruled his life...His fears accompanied him and he lost his wife and so much but he still was with Jack...Jack and Ennis knew this very well that Ennis loved Jack with no limits and this love made him what he is today..All this must be going on in Ennis mind and if Jack would tell him that he is so because of Ennis then Ennis would have not reacted more than he did because he had been saturated with hurt and he would just walk away like he did..He would want the space and time... :\'(
Perhaps had Jack said those same words, Ennis would have realized how much Jack had also suffered? It could have been possible, in spite of the fact that he was very upset...
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Change for worse, unfortunately! :(
I don't think so. It made Jack a better, more loving, and caring person.
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I don't think so. It made Jack a better, more loving, and caring person.
Yes,to some extent...But when I said that Jack was who undergone the greatest change,far from the young sheep sheppard,I wasn't doing a qualitative comparison.I was referring to the fact that his way of being became more bitter,with less hopes and careless way of seeing life.In the sense you're referring to,of course the change was for better; almost always,difficulties make us grow as a person...
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I don't think so. It made Jack a better, more loving, and caring person.
Yes,to some extent...But when I said that Jack was who undergone the greatest change,far from the young sheep sheppard,I wasn't doing a qualitative comparison.I was referring to the fact that his way of being became more bitter,with less hopes and careless way of seeing life.In the sense you're referring to,of course the change was for better; almost always,difficulties make us grow as a person...
I didn't think that he became a worse person, but bitter and empty, in any case -not happy! For me it was difficult to watch.
Also, IMO (and I have to say that when it comes to Jack - I cease to be reasonable) he was always caring and loving person. What more could anyone possibly expect from him? I can not resent him anything, even the fact that he wasn't persistent enough with Ennis and failed to put a little more pressure on that stubborn head of Ennis. So, IMO the years of yearning, not getting what he wanted the most didn't change him to become a better or worse person, but he had lost a lot of his happiness, his enthusiasm and dreams. That's the change I'm talking about and for me it is a very sad part of the story. Love, the most beautiful thing that he ever felt, destroyed him in a way, cos the other part wasn't able to embrace him. Sad! :\'(
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Perhaps had Jack said those same words, Ennis would have realized how much Jack had also suffered? It could have been possible, in spite of the fact that he was very upset...
I think that it would have made things horrible at that time...Seeing Ennis break down Jack did not have the heart to say that...If he would have Ennis would have been more shattered and Jack dint want it at that time...I feel Ennis realized that after the last confrontaion and so wanted to meet up with Jack again and make up with him..But as we see it was too late...
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Yes,to some extent...But when I said that Jack was who undergone the greatest change,far from the young sheep sheppard,I wasn't doing a qualitative comparison.I was referring to the fact that his way of being became more bitter,with less hopes and careless way of seeing life.In the sense you're referring to,of course the change was for better; almost always,difficulties make us grow as a person...
I didn't think that he became a worse person, but bitter and empty, in any case -not happy! For me it was difficult to watch.
Also, IMO (and I have to say that when it comes to Jack - I cease to be reasonable) he was always caring and loving person. What more could anyone possibly expect from him? I can not resent him anything, even the fact that he wasn't persistent enough with Ennis and failed to put a little more pressure on that stubborn head of Ennis. So, IMO the years of yearning, not getting what he wanted the most didn't change him to become a better or worse person, but he had lost a lot of his happiness, his enthusiasm and dreams. That's the change I'm talking about and for me it is a very sad part of the story. Love, the most beautiful thing that he ever felt, destroyed him in a way, cos the other part wasn't able to embrace him. Sad! :\'(
Sometimes, we aim too high so that we feel it is a failure when we fall short, in spite of the distance traveled. I remember one of the last lines in the movie "Alexander", where the dead hero is memorialized with the words:His failure towers over other men's successes.
That's what a dreamer is.
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I think that it would have made things horrible at that time...Seeing Ennis break down Jack did not have the heart to say that...If he would have Ennis would have been more shattered and Jack dint want it at that time...I feel Ennis realized that after the last confrontaion and so wanted to meet up with Jack again and make up with him..But as we see it was too late...
Perhaps. But I somehow think that it was up at LF when Ennis did finally realize how Jack must have felt.
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Sometimes, we aim too high so that we feel it is a failure when we fall short, in spite of the distance traveled. I remember one of the last lines in the movie "Alexander", where the dead hero is memorialized with the words:His failure towers over other men's successes.
That's what a dreamer is.
Considering the stubbornness of Ennis and the whole society Jack was fighting with, his difficult situation and not compassionate people all around him, considering the time and the backward place he was living at, and Jack's pretty high goals - he was a dreamer indeed!
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Considering the stubbornness of Ennis and the whole society Jack was fighting with, his difficult situation and not compassionate people all around him, considering the time and the backward place he was living at, and Jack's pretty high goals - he was a dreamer indeed!
I think "dreamer" is the best way to think about Jack. And if we think about it, Ennis was part of his being this way, for better or for worse.
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Perhaps. But I somehow think that it was up at LF when Ennis did finally realize how Jack must have felt.
I also believe that the shirts were the final stroke :\'( , but there's another point that we all forget - during his phone call with Lureen, she told him that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback mountain. I think that even than Ennis has partially come to the point when he could understand Jack's feelings.
So, we can divide the last stage of Ennis' cognition, after FC-
1. after FC he was certainly thinking about Jack, his words during FC, his infidelity and the anger that Jack had shown for the first time.
2.Next stage is after the phone call with Lureen when he found out how brokeback mountain was Jack's favorite place up to a point that he wanted to be buried there - of course that Ennis knew that he's the reason for Jack's loving Brokeback so much!
3. And third stage is after finding the shirts - then everything was pretty much clear. Ennis knew that what they had was Love, and this is going to be his open wound for the rest of his lonely life! :(
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I think "dreamer" is the best way to think about Jack. And if we think about it, Ennis was part of his being this way, for better or for worse.
Do you mean that Ennis was the reason for him being that way? Didn't quite catch it! ~)
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Do you mean that Ennis was the reason for him being that way? Didn't quite catch it! ~)
I think that,even if Jack was always a dreamer-maybe as a way to escape from his hard life and the few support he had found in his father-,Ennis was the cause for keep on maintaining his dreams alive during all his life.All the qualities and mistakes we find in Jack and his dreamer way of being are due to a great extent to Ennis; yes,as Thomas says,for better or worse...It was for Ennis that he dreamed a sweet life and it was for Ennis that he tried to escape from reality more than once.
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I think that,even if Jack was always a dreamer-maybe as a way to escape from his hard life and the few support he had found in his father-,Ennis was the cause for keep on maintaining his dreams alive during all his life.All the qualities and mistakes we find in Jack and his dreamer way of being are due to a great extent to Ennis; yes,as Thomas says,for better or worse...It was for Ennis that he dreamed a sweet life and it was for Ennis that he tried to escape from reality more than once.
Sure, this makes sense! Even I think that it wasn't an escaping from the reality - it was more like changing the reality and moving on from an unfavorable situations... I think that he was "swimming" in the reality very well - he just wanted it to be different, better for two of them.
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I also believe that the shirts were the final stroke :\'( , but there's another point that we all forget - during his phone call with Lureen, she told him that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback mountain. I think that even than Ennis has partially come to the point when he could understand Jack's feelings.
So, we can divide the last stage of Ennis' cognition, after FC-
1. after FC he was certainly thinking about Jack, his words during FC, his infidelity and the anger that Jack had shown for the first time.
2.Next stage is after the phone call with Lureen when he found out how brokeback mountain was Jack's favorite place up to a point that he wanted to be buried there - of course that Ennis knew that he's the reason for Jack's loving Brokeback so much!
3. And third stage is after finding the shirts - then everything was pretty much clear. Ennis knew that what they had was Love, and this is going to be his open wound for the rest of his lonely life! :(
Yes. We tend to forget that Ennis's change of heart can be seen starting from the last scene with Cassie and on to LF. The scene with Lureen is especially noteworthy, as you indicate here. It is the first true sign of Ennis's full realization of Jack's love.
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Do you mean that Ennis was the reason for him being that way? Didn't quite catch it! ~)
I think that,even if Jack was always a dreamer-maybe as a way to escape from his hard life and the few support he had found in his father-,Ennis was the cause for keep on maintaining his dreams alive during all his life.All the qualities and mistakes we find in Jack and his dreamer way of being are due to a great extent to Ennis; yes,as Thomas says,for better or worse...It was for Ennis that he dreamed a sweet life and it was for Ennis that he tried to escape from reality more than once.
Exactly. Beautifully put. :)
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Exactly. Beautifully put. :)
:t) Thomas ¡
Sure, this makes sense! Even I think that it wasn't an escaping from the reality - it was more like changing the reality and moving on from an unfavorable situations... I think that he was "swimming" in the reality very well - he just wanted it to be different, better for two of them.
When I say "escape from the reality" I mean from going to Mexico to find in other arms some relief for Ennis rejections,to living all his life wishing a "sweet life" that he knew very at the end that never would happen...Of course,he had his feet well enough on the ground as to become more bitter in his last years because he realised what his life was...
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Perhaps. But I somehow think that it was up at LF when Ennis did finally realize how Jack must have felt.
Well, I feel that after breaking down in the FC, Ennis wanted to be by himself but then he also saw Jack hurting in the FC..Even though late he realized it that time and even though Ennis was so hurt he wanted things to work out between them..If not living together then atleast meeting up and just spending sometime so that it can soothen the pain..However, the intensity of jack's love was realized by Ennis only after seeing the shirts...
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Well, I feel that after breaking down in the FC, Ennis wanted to be by himself but then he also saw Jack hurting in the FC..Even though late he realized it that time and even though Ennis was so hurt he wanted things to work out between them..If not living together then atleast meeting up and just spending sometime so that it can soothen the pain..However, the intensity of jack's love was realized by Ennis only after seeing the shirts...
I certainly think that it started in FC. Ennis was definitely taken by surprise at the bitrerness of Jack's response to his threats. It certainly showed him how much Jack was hurting deep inside. But connecting this with Jack's love for him took some time, IMO.
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If Jack hadn't brought up the fact that he had wanted to quit Ennis, Ennis would have no trouble continuing things the way it is. He was probably feeling as much pain and anger as Jack except that he love to keep all his emotions bottled up inside him. So he was just venting his frustrations on Jack to show him that he was hurting as much as he is. All this while when he was alone, he was probably thinking how to quit Jack himself. If Jack hadn't taken the initiative to kiss Ennis on the first tent scene, their love affair probably wouldn't have started in the first place and by their love affair beginning, so did all the pain and misery. So, Ennis could have meant that seeing that 'you can't lose what you never had', it's probably less painful if Jack had never kissed him or had never came back into his life after their time on Brokeback Mountain. He would never have hopes for their future together and his love for Jack wouldn't grow with each passing day, he wouldn't be missing him every second of every day and he wouldn't have to count the days until they can meet again. All these can be overwhelming for him, Ennis asking Jack to quit him could be a sign of his helplessness towards his feelings for Jack...
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If Jack hadn't brought up the fact that he had wanted to quit Ennis, Ennis would have no trouble continuing things the way it is. He was probably feeling as much pain and anger as Jack except that he love to keep all his emotions bottled up inside him. So he was just venting his frustrations on Jack to show him that he was hurting as much as he is. All this while when he was alone, he was probably thinking how to quit Jack himself. If Jack hadn't taken the initiative to kiss Ennis on the first tent scene, their love affair probably wouldn't have started in the first place and by their love affair beginning, so did all the pain and misery. So, Ennis could have meant that seeing that 'you can't lose what you never had', it's probably less painful if Jack had never kissed him or had never came back into his life after their time on Brokeback Mountain. He would never have hopes for their future together and his love for Jack wouldn't grow with each passing day, he wouldn't be missing him every second of every day and he wouldn't have to count the days until they can meet again. All these can be overwhelming for him, Ennis asking Jack to quit him could be a sign of his helplessness towards his feelings for Jack...
I agree. Ennis would have probably been content with the status quo, even if he was feeling as much pain as Jack. He prided himself for being the stoic, not realizing that he was denying Jack and himself that happiness that was within their grasp.
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I agree. Ennis would have probably been content with the status quo, even if he was feeling as much pain as Jack. He prided himself for being the stoic, not realizing that he was denying Jack and himself that happiness that was within their grasp.
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If the movie had gone on much longer, we would be seeing Ennis change of heart seeing the effect that his last meeting and Jack's words have on him. He was withdrawing within himself more and more to the point that he showed no emotion even when Cassie cried and told him that 'girls don't fall in love with fun'. There wasn't even the slightest bit of remorse, he must be feeling 10 times worse than that towards Jack inside...its so painful to see Ennis like that when he could have had a sweet life with Jack if he chose to.
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If the movie had gone on much longer, we would be seeing Ennis change of heart seeing the effect that his last meeting and Jack's words have on him. He was withdrawing within himself more and more to the point that he showed no emotion even when Cassie cried and told him that 'girls don't fall in love with fun'. There wasn't even the slightest bit of remorse, he must be feeling 10 times worse than that towards Jack inside...its so painful to see Ennis like that when he could have had a sweet life with Jack if he chose to.
That is one of the things which make our anxiety even worse -knowing that in November things could have been better, and maybe Ennis would have give in. But the worst thing happened - Jack's death!
I was thinking - once one Brokie said (can't remember who) that he feels so bad about the words: it's because of you that I'm like this..." cos a man who was after him for a long time told him the same words. That happened after few months and this guy got married, but decided to look for that Brokie and suddenly it was his fault that this guy could not get over with their relationship.
What I want to know is - is it possible that one gay random/innocent relationship changes person to become gay for good?
In my mind Ennis would never have any physical or emotional relationship with any man if Jack "didn't happen". Maybe it would be the same for Jack... anyway less probably. But, can one profound relationship with the person of the same gender make someone become gay, in search for the same feeling they had with that particular person? (I don't know if this is off topic, but there were so many threads, and I usually miss to find it :i )
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That is one of the things which make our anxiety even worse -knowing that in November things could have been better, and maybe Ennis would have give in.But the worst thing happened - Jack's death!
I was thinking - once one Brokie said (can't remember who) that he feels so bad about the words: it's because of you that I'm like this..." cos a man who was after him for a long time told him the same words. That happened after few months and this guy got married, but decided to look for that Brokie and suddenly it was his fault that this guy could not get over with their relationship.
What I want to know is - is it possible that one gay random/innocent relationship changes person to become gay for good?
Oh the line that I had to emphasize was really beyond moving and now I have something else to wonder about... What if...? If Jack hadn't died, maybe Ennis would have given in and finally said 'let's just do it.." I can't help but feel sorrow now... Gosh, my case of PBS is just getting even more intense now. I doubt it will ever get to the level of the first two weeks after I saw BBM, but gosh... After re-watching it the other day, I saw Jack's eyes from when Ennis told him that it was his fault for how he was... The pain and sadness that came across Jack's face were powerful, and sad...
The second line, that I emphasized, I think that it could be possible. I mean, Jack and Ennis, especially Ennis, came up there just to work, not to fall in love, nor to have a relationship with another man. If Ennis hadn't gone to Brokeback, then he probably wouldn't have found his otherside, his emotional state that he got from being with Jack... Perhaps Jack wouldn't have either, maybe they would have lived their lives with that feeling of 'something' missing but never really knowing what that was.
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Oh the line that I had to emphasize was really beyond moving and now I have something else to wonder about... What if...? If Jack hadn't died, maybe Ennis would have given in and finally said 'let's just do it.." I can't help but feel sorrow now... Gosh, my case of PBS is just getting even more intense now. I doubt it will ever get to the level of the first two weeks after I saw BBM, but gosh... After re-watching it the other day, I saw Jack's eyes from when Ennis told him that it was his fault for how he was... The pain and sadness that came across Jack's face were powerful, and sad...
LV :ghug: I know how you feel, cos I've been there ( all of us have!)
I was also devastated each time I found a little thing that showed me how close they were to have a sweet life. That hurts! A lot! :\'(
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If the movie had gone on much longer, we would be seeing Ennis change of heart seeing the effect that his last meeting and Jack's words have on him. He was withdrawing within himself more and more to the point that he showed no emotion even when Cassie cried and told him that 'girls don't fall in love with fun'. There wasn't even the slightest bit of remorse, he must be feeling 10 times worse than that towards Jack inside...its so painful to see Ennis like that when he could have had a sweet life with Jack if he chose to.
I tend to agree. I think Ennis was on the cusp of conversion. It was true that Jack had a great influence on who he was and who he was capable of being. For one, Jack certainly sowed the seeds that made Ennis a more loving person.
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I tend to agree. I think Ennis was on the cusp of conversion. It was true that Jack had a great influence on who he was and who he was capable of being. For one, Jack certainly sowed the seeds that made Ennis a more loving person.
This can be seen in the parts where they are on Brokeback... "Friend, that's the most word that you've spoken in the last month..." or something similar to that quote. I also think that because of Jack, Ennis smiled more, and after their big fight, he felt really bad about it and one can see this in the bus depot when he's sitting there, deep in thought and sorrow while eating that piece of pie... :(
If it weren't for Jack, then Ennis wouldn't have probably been a more loving person.
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This can be seen in the parts where they are on Brokeback... "Friend, that's the most word that you've spoken in the last month..." or something similar to that quote. I also think that because of Jack, Ennis smiled more, and after their big fight, he felt really bad about it and one can see this in the bus depot when he's sitting there, deep in thought and sorrow while eating that piece of pie... :(
If it weren't for Jack, then Ennis wouldn't have probably been a more loving person.
Yes, that scene is a perfect example of the other side of "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... ". In the Last Confrontation, Ennis probably didn't remember the other side of this influence...
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Yes, that scene is a perfect example of the other side of "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this... ". In the Last Confrontation, Ennis probably didn't remember the other side of this influence...
That is all the same side, I believe. The side of Jack's love which made Ennis a loving person. Losing control in that love occasionally was his worst nightmare, but it was love -everywhere! <^(
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That is all the same side, I believe. The side of Jack's love which made Ennis a loving person. Losing control in that love occasionally was his worst nightmare, but it was love -everywhere! <^(
Would you say that Ennis's complaint to Jack (the topic of this thread) is an expression of his loss (or fear of loss) of control?
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Would you say that Ennis's complaint to Jack (the topic of this thread) is an expression of his loss (or fear of loss) of control?
I think that it is,to some extent.He knows perfectly that only Jack can make him loss his control,being grasped for "that thing" completely;and that fears him,for being vulnerable in front of him and society,as well as for the simple fact of feeling so for another man.It's the love he feels for Jack what made him be like this,by loosing all the control he had always had in his life,by breaking all his moral and living schemes.
Nevertheless,I have always thought that,mainly,this phrase is simply a love's declaration "Ennis style".
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Would you say that Ennis's complaint to Jack (the topic of this thread) is an expression of his loss (or fear of loss) of control?
I think that it is,to some extent.He knows perfectly that only Jack can make him loss his control,being grasped for "that thing" completely;and that fears him,for being vulnerable in front of him and society,as well as for the simple fact of feeling so for another man.It's the love he feels for Jack what made him be like this,by loosing all the control he had always had in his life,by breaking all his moral and living schemes.
Nevertheless,I have always thought that,mainly,this phrase is simply a love's declaration "Ennis style".
Yes, I agree here with MPJ! He lost the control over his life cos of Jack and his love, in a way he lost himself for Jack, and yes- in a way he said to Jack that he loved him. And the trigger point for this statement was Jack's infidelity.
That scene as much as it's difficult made me want to hug Ennis, cos there he wasn't only a stubborn man, but a broken-heart man. And his tears and sadness were so obvious and real! :\'(
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Yes, I agree here with MPJ! He lost the control over his life cos of Jack and his love, in a way he lost himself for Jack, and yes- in a way he said to Jack that he loved him. And the trigger point for this statement was Jack's infidelity.
That scene as much as it's difficult made me want to hug Ennis, cos there he wasn't only a stubborn man, but a broken-heart man. And his tears and sadness were so obvious and real! :\'(
Yes,and I agree with you,Loreen ¡ Even a "no Brokie"person as my Alma,had to admit that this phrase is a way of telling Jack how much he loves and needs him.IMO this means a lot,no?.
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Yes,and I agree with you,Loreen ¡ Even a "no Brokie"person as my Alma,had to admit that this phrase is a way of telling Jack how much he loves and needs him.IMO this means a lot,no?.
Poor Ennis, just when he was attacked and so broken, he managed to say that Jack had changed him. Only that. But for Ennis that is a huge step. So sad!
I always think of the time between FC and the note that Jack was dead. That is a big mystery cos so many things went out during FC. Did they both tried to resolve that in themselves? Did their experiencing of the relationship thoroughly changed? :s)
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I think that it is,to some extent.He knows perfectly that only Jack can make him loss his control,being grasped for "that thing" completely;and that fears him,for being vulnerable in front of him and society,as well as for the simple fact of feeling so for another man.It's the love he feels for Jack what made him be like this,by loosing all the control he had always had in his life,by breaking all his moral and living schemes.
Nevertheless,I have always thought that,mainly,this phrase is simply a love's declaration "Ennis style".
Yes, I agree here with MPJ! He lost the control over his life cos of Jack and his love, in a way he lost himself for Jack, and yes- in a way he said to Jack that he loved him. And the trigger point for this statement was Jack's infidelity.
That scene as much as it's difficult made me want to hug Ennis, cos there he wasn't only a stubborn man, but a broken-heart man. And his tears and sadness were so obvious and real! :\'(
I love the way MPJ puts is: that it is a declaration of love, "Ennis Style". This is a springboard to so much about Ennis and the way he loves...
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I love the way MPJ puts is: that it is a declaration of love, "Ennis Style". This is a springboard to so much about Ennis and the way he loves...
Thank you,Thomas ¡ :^^) In this sense,Spanish translation speaks more about this,IMO.In it,Ennis says literally:-"It's because of you,Jack,that I'm like this; I'm nobody,I'm lost...".Who can say more with less words?.
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Thank you,Thomas ¡ :^^) In this sense,Spanish translation speaks more about this,IMO.In it,Ennis says literally:-"It's because of you,Jack,that I'm like this; I'm nobody,I'm lost...".Who can say more with less words?.
That is an interesting "translation", indeed! Hmmm, I am trying to decide whether it says more than was originally intended. But perhaps it is an accuate transliteration, if not a literal translation....
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That is an interesting "translation", indeed! Hmmm, I am trying to decide whether it says more than was originally intended. But perhaps it is an accuate transliteration, if not a literal translation....
Well,I don't know as much English as to make an accurate differentiation,but I think it means the same in the end. Can't "I'm nowhere"be the same as "I'm lost",because I don't know where I'm ,where I go without you?.Wasn't this how Ennis really was without Jack-even if he never wanted to admit it-?.
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Well,I don't know as much English as to make an accurate differentiation,but I think it means the same in the end. Can't "I'm nowhere"be the same as "I'm lost",because I don't know where I'm ,where I go without you?.Wasn't this how Ennis really was without Jack-even if he never wanted to admit it-?.
Maybe the only time Ennis knew where he was, were the times spent with Jack. The rest of his life spent without Jack he felt as he was nowhere. :s)
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Well,I don't know as much English as to make an accurate differentiation,but I think it means the same in the end. Can't "I'm nowhere"be the same as "I'm lost",because I don't know where I'm ,where I go without you?.Wasn't this how Ennis really was without Jack-even if he never wanted to admit it-?.
Maybe the only time Ennis knew where he was, were the times spent with Jack. The rest of his life spent without Jack he felt as he was nowhere. :s)
Well, it is not exactly a direct or obvious translation. In English, to be "somewhere" means making something out of yourself -- the same connotation as "you have arrived". "I am lost" has a slightly different connotation. You are neither here nore there -- you don't know where you stand.
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Thank you,Thomas ¡ :^^) In this sense,Spanish translation speaks more about this,IMO.In it,Ennis says literally:-"It's because of you,Jack,that I'm like this; I'm nobody,I'm lost...".Who can say more with less words?.
I love this translation! He's lost because he can't accept himself, maybe? and that he sees that if he can't accept himself and be with Jack then he's nothing!
My little analysis...
Maybe the only time Ennis knew where he was, were the times spent with Jack. The rest of his life spent without Jack he felt as he was nowhere. :s)
Well this is true, I think. When the reunion comes along Ennis couldn't wait for Jack to show up and when he did he lost control. Jack made Ennis who he is, and without Jack he can't be who he really is and without him, he is lost.
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I love this translation! He's lost because he can't accept himself, maybe? and that he sees that if he can't accept himself and be with Jack then he's nothing!
My little analysis...
Well this is true, I think. When the reunion comes along Ennis couldn't wait for Jack to show up and when he did he lost control. Jack made Ennis who he is, and without Jack he can't be who he really is and without him, he is lost.
I think this is exact,thank you LV ¡ What you say specially in the second paragraph is what I meant about Spanish translation;without Jack he is not how he is really and deeply,let's say that he doesn't find his way,so he's lost...
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Well this is true, I think. When the reunion comes along Ennis couldn't wait for Jack to show up and when he did he lost control. Jack made Ennis who he is, and without Jack he can't be who he really is and without him, he is lost.
How deep and striking these words are, coming form Ennis! He, tacit, stoic man, who can stand anything is admitting that someone has influenced all his life and made him the way he is, and that he did all he did only for that someone. Coming from Ennis is very deep and very meaningful. And all he had to say was: I love you Jack! <^(
But he couldn't!
And Heath was BEYOND PERFECT in that scene. :\'(
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I love this translation! He's lost because he can't accept himself, maybe? and that he sees that if he can't accept himself and be with Jack then he's nothing!
For sure, I did feel that when he said "nowhere", I assumed that this was also an oblique reference to his being nowhere without Jack.
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How deep and striking these words are, coming form Ennis! He, tacit, stoic man, who can stand anything is admitting that someone has influenced all his life and made him the way he is, and that he did all he did only for that someone. Coming from Ennis is very deep and very meaningful. And all he had to say was: I love you Jack! <^(
But he couldn't!
And Heath was BEYOND PERFECT in that scene. :\'(
You're absolutely right here,Loreen ¡;How deep and striking there words are,coming from Ennis ¡.They have,IMO,another completely different meaning if they had been told by Jack,always more open,more willing to confess his dependence from Ennis.But I believe,on the contrary than you,that he didn't need to say "I love you,Jack¡";with these words,he already said it...
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You're absolutely right here,Loreen ¡;How deep and striking there words are,coming from Ennis ¡.They have,IMO,another completely different meaning if they had been told by Jack,always more open,more willing to confess his dependence from Ennis.But I believe,on the contrary than you,that he didn't need to say "I love you,Jack¡";with these words,he already said it...
I know babe! I agree on this with you. It is just that he said so many things to explain something that could be said in only 3 words...
Also, so many words said but I think that Jack didn't understand them. He only knew that Ennis is blaming him and that Ennis is hurt, but being hurt himself too, Jack couldn't recognize the hidden meaning of Ennis's words. :\'(
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How deep and striking these words are, coming form Ennis! He, tacit, stoic man, who can stand anything is admitting that someone has influenced all his life and made him the way he is, and that he did all he did only for that someone. Coming from Ennis is very deep and very meaningful. And all he had to say was: I love you Jack! <^(
But he couldn't!
And Heath was BEYOND PERFECT in that scene. :\'(
Wow..Well said Loreen..
Love is what made Ennis so helpless and he felt that he is nothing...It was a combination of true, deep love and hurt of thinking that the one he loves has physical relations with someone else too..On the surface the line seems like a utter blame but deep down it shows forbidden love that he has for Jack all these years..One would not react so for anyone unless he does not mean much ....
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Wow..Well said Loreen..
Love is what made Ennis so helpless and he felt that he is nothing...It was a combination of true, deep love and hurt of thinking that the one he loves has physical relations with someone else too..On the surface the line seems like a utter blame but deep down it shows forbidden love that he has for Jack all these years..One would not react so for anyone unless he does not mean much ....
I said once in another thread that I believe that Ennis looked up to Jack, that Ennis thought of Jack as more interesting and more valuable than he is. Being needed by Jack meant a world to him, and now he heard that Jack also needed some other men.... that was a devastating cognition for Ennis... and just in that most hurtful time he admits that Jack is his reason for living and the one who could make him be alive... "Because of you Jack, I'm like this...."
Very powerful and sad is FC.... very sad... :\'( especially when you know that instead of resolving their relationship, the death is coming to separate their bodies and forever bound their souls.... :\'(
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I know babe! I agree on this with you. It is just that he said so many things to explain something that could be said in only 3 words...
Also, so many words said but I think that Jack didn't understand them. He only knew that Ennis is blaming him and that Ennis is hurt, but being hurt himself too, Jack couldn't recognize the hidden meaning of Ennis's words. :\'(
A few days ago I would say my interpretation is different but I have realised some changes in me. My acceptance for FC as the closing scene has been grown. Now I am able to admitt it could be like you said, Loreen. It's like I am ready to accept more pain than before. I still hope their reactions in FC were extreme because of "the years of thins unsaid" but that's only my hope.
I will keep on thinking.
I am still intrigued by fact Ennis did not say this sentence is ss. Does it mean that the movie scene was meant to tell us something that was told in the ss but couldn't been adopted into the movie?
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A few days ago I would say my interpretation is different but I have realised some changes in me. My acceptance for FC as the closing scene has been grown. Now I am able to admitt it could be like you said, Loreen. It's like I am ready to accept more pain than before. I still hope their reactions in FC were extreme because of "the years of thins unsaid" but that's only my hope.
I will keep on thinking.
I am still intrigued by fact Ennis did not say this sentence is ss. Does it mean that the movie scene was meant to tell us something that was told in the ss but couldn't been adopted into the movie?
Traveller, (putniče! :) ), I have changed so many times my opinion here, the way I experience some scenes, the message I get from a quote .... This is a process and it all leads to the better understanding of the movie and its' implementation in our being. Also, it is understandable as we were left with our own imagination and our own senses to accept the movie and many enigmatic pieces of it. There are a number of scenes where we are to conclude ourselves - the most notorious example is Jack's death. We don't know if he's killed or not. Many other parts too are enigmatic and open to our own interpretation, which can be changeable, right?
SS and movie differs up to a point, and not only this but many things were omitted/add in the movie. The thing from SS I'd like to hear the most in the movie is Ennis's "little darlin'" after the reunion kiss! (t) (t) (t) I'd so like to hear those words of affection, but ... :(
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Traveller, (putniče! :) ), I have changed so many times my opinion here, the way I experience some scenes, the message I get from a quote .... This is a process and it all leads to the better understanding of the movie and its' implementation in our being. Also, it is understandable as we were left with our own imagination and our own senses to accept the movie and many enigmatic pieces of it. There are a number of scenes where we are to conclude ourselves - the most notorious example is Jack's death. We don't know if he's killed or not. Many other parts too are enigmatic and open to our own interpretation, which can be changeable, right?
SS and movie differs up to a point, and not only this but many things were omitted/add in the movie. The thing from SS I'd like to hear the most in the movie is Ennis's "little darlin'" after the reunion kiss! (t) (t) (t) I'd so like to hear those words of affection, but ... :(
I also miss Ennis's "little darlin" :\'(
I love to share your impresion of being in process and your openness. It's good not to be alone in this process.
I like reading ss because it helps me to understand. I like finding discrepancies between this one and the movie. I am thinking them over, try to find reason of omitting or adding. Sometimes I make joke at myself because of using so much of my brain, instead of just feeling.
What "putnice" means? ^f^
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I also miss Ennis's "little darlin" :\'(
I love to share your impresion of being in process and your openness. It's good not to be alone in this process.
I like reading ss because it helps me to understand. I like finding discrepancies between this one and the movie. I am thinking them over, try to find reason of omitting or adding. Sometimes I make joke at myself because of using so much of my brain, instead of just feeling.
What "putnice" means? ^f^
Hm... I believe that all of us are in this process in the different levels and intensity. It is always the most intense at the beginning.
Using brain is a good thing here, coz if you use only your feelings it would be very difficult for you. I know that it was for me! Better said it was unbearable. For a while I thought my head was going to explode. It is just this forum and endless exchanging of opinions, sharing feelings with other (older) members here who all understand the pain, that helped me keep my PBS under control and not letting it concur me, but to improve me.
Putnik (putniče - is a form when I address you) is a traveler in Croatian, so I thought that the word would be similar in Polish, but obviously I was wrong! ::)
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May it be that is more difficult to control our feelings than thoughts? Sometimes I have problems to recognise which is though and which is feeling.
Traveller is in Polish "podróżnik" and female - traveller is "podróżniczka", having in mind gender correctness :) but I like better "putnice" as this word brings some fresh energy into my head.
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May it be that is more difficult to control our feelings than thoughts? Sometimes I have problems to recognise which is though and which is feeling.
Traveller is in Polish "podróżnik" and female - traveller is "podróżniczka", having in mind gender correctness :) but I like better "putnice" as this word brings some fresh energy into my head.
*o) It is similar, but not easy to connect the meaning if you really don't know it.
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May it be that is more difficult to control our feelings than thoughts? Sometimes I have problems to recognise which is though and which is feeling.
Traveller is in Polish "podróżnik" and female - traveller is "podróżniczka", having in mind gender correctness :) but I like better "putnice" as this word brings some fresh energy into my head.
That's a good distinction here. Feelings have a way of bubbling up, whereas thoughts can be "controlled" more easily, IMO. I suppose that you are applying this to the context of Ennis opening his heart up to Jack in this scene -- exposing what he feels instead of what he thinks.
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That's a good distinction here. Feelings have a way of bubbling up, whereas thoughts can be "controlled" more easily, IMO. I suppose that you are applying this to the context of Ennis opening his heart up to Jack in this scene -- exposing what he feels instead of what he thinks.
Maybe both of them (E&J) reacted emotionally in the situation when they couldn't stand any more. And both express that in their own way.
That's why it is so hurtful - we finally find out what we only foreboded before - that they both have an enormous burden of the relationship they cherish and loved so much - Jack coz he couldn't have more, and Ennis coz he knew that Jack was unsatisfied with that! :(
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That's a good distinction here. Feelings have a way of bubbling up, whereas thoughts can be "controlled" more easily, IMO. I suppose that you are applying this to the context of Ennis opening his heart up to Jack in this scene -- exposing what he feels instead of what he thinks.
Exactly like you said - "It's because of you, Jack..." scene was the huge and out of selfcontrol expression of Ennis's feelings. In this case I did not doubt it even for one single second.
However, I wonder if Ennis really was exposing what he thougt or maybe what he was taught to think (i suppose, I'm coming back to question of social constraints).
Maybe both of them (E&J) reacted emotionally in the situation when they couldn't stand any more. And both express that in their own way.
That's why it is so hurtful - we finally find out what we only foreboded before - that they both have an enormous burden of the relationship they cherish and loved so much - Jack coz he couldn't have more, and Ennis coz he knew that Jack was unsatisfied with that! :(
I hope that Jack understood something more. I like to believe he understood not only Enni's pain (I find resistance in me to use word "unsatisfied") but also realized how much Ennis loved him for all his life. Maybe this realisation was one of the reason he got into
the relation with Randall.
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I think that Jack knew how much Ennis loved him, but twice a yr. just didn't "cut it" in Jack's eyes. :(
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Exactly like you said - "It's because of you, Jack..." scene was the huge and out of selfcontrol expression of Ennis's feelings. In this case I did not doubt it even for one single second.
However, I wonder if Ennis really was exposing what he thougt or maybe what he was taught to think (i suppose, I'm coming back to question of social constraints).
I hope that Jack understood something more. I like to believe he understood not only Enni's pain (I find resistance in me to use word "unsatisfied") but also realized how much Ennis loved him for all his life. Maybe this realisation was one of the reason he got into
the relation with Randall.
I think that Jack knew how much Ennis loved him, but twice a yr. just didn't "cut it" in Jack's eyes. :(
Sure Jack understood! I think that he understood everyone in his benevolent way, the most his love- Ennis. But as Atalley said - twice a year just wasn't enough.
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Maybe both of them (E&J) reacted emotionally in the situation when they couldn't stand any more. And both express that in their own way.
That's why it is so hurtful - we finally find out what we only foreboded before - that they both have an enormous burden of the relationship they cherish and loved so much - Jack coz he couldn't have more, and Ennis coz he knew that Jack was unsatisfied with that! :(
Well, the reaction was emotional as well as cathartic -- a purging of pent up feelings without benefit of careful thought or reasoning.
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Exactly like you said - "It's because of you, Jack..." scene was the huge and out of selfcontrol expression of Ennis's feelings. In this case I did not doubt it even for one single second.
However, I wonder if Ennis really was exposing what he thougt or maybe what he was taught to think (i suppose, I'm coming back to question of social constraints).
I hope that Jack understood something more. I like to believe he understood not only Enni's pain (I find resistance in me to use word "unsatisfied") but also realized how much Ennis loved him for all his life. Maybe this realisation was one of the reason he got into
the relation with Randall.
I bet Ennis didn't even know what to think of it all -- he was just reacting from the gut. "It's because of you..." was clearly a kind of lashing out. Sure, some of the thoughts that he kept hidden deep inside of him surfaced. But the way it all came out was a bit too incoherent. He had no control over how he expressed it, if you know what I mean.
And yes, I think that Jack understood Ennis's love and the accompanying limitations -- most especially in this scene. That was why he didn't have the heart to stay away when Ennis collapsed. He probably felt that at that stage, he was huting Ennis more than he was helping him come to terms with himself and with his love for Jack.
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I think that Jack knew how much Ennis loved him, but twice a yr. just didn't "cut it" in Jack's eyes. :(
Very true.
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I love the fact that even though Jack was hurting in the FC, that he embraced Ennis when Ennis needed him the most. Now THAT is romantic! He knew that Ennis was at the end of his rope as well. Also, I just love the line "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack." I took it to mean that being w/o Jack was eating him up inside. Any others have ideas about this? <^(
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I love the fact that even though Jack was hurting in the FC, that he embraced Ennis when Ennis needed him the most. Now THAT is romantic! He knew that Ennis was at the end of his rope as well. Also, I just love the line "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack." I took it to mean that being w/o Jack was eating him up inside. Any others have ideas about this? <^(
I kind of feel the same way, that Ennis was so broken down after putting all the limitations on himself, so tired of living a double life, just worn out. They were both so hurt by all the strain on the relationship. I felt both of their pain.
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I love the fact that even though Jack was hurting in the FC, that he embraced Ennis when Ennis needed him the most. Now THAT is romantic! He knew that Ennis was at the end of his rope as well. Also, I just love the line "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack." I took it to mean that being w/o Jack was eating him up inside. Any others have ideas about this? <^(
I kind of feel the same way, that Ennis was so broken down after putting all the limitations on himself, so tired of living a double life, just worn out. They were both so hurt by all the strain on the relationship. I felt both of their pain.
I think Jack's hug is a kind of answer to the DE. Yes, I love how he responded this way, in spite of his deep frustration and anger. It's an indicator of how much he loved Ennis.
Did Jack accept what Ennis said? I think rather than seeing it as Ennis blaming him (jack) for his failures, Jack understood it as Ennis confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.
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In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The agressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.
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In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The aggressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.
Yes,I tend to agree in that it's not as much a kind of blaming Jack as an scream for help.A kind of telling Jack:-Please,forgive me for my faults,it's simply that I don't know how to love you,but I really do.Help me to learn it,but don't leave me,please,I'm lost without you..."So,maybe,it's better a scream of love... :\'(
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- can't remember this scene, man! i have to like rent or get this movie and watch it again.
i recall delmar, the poor dude, was like a ticking bomb, like all repressed and depressed.
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In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The agressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.
Very good point. Very perceptive.
I personally think that it is both: a lashing out in frustration, and a plea to be taken out of himself.
I love the way you interpret "I just can't stand this anymore"! :^^)
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- can't remember this scene, man! i have to like rent or get this movie and watch it again.
i recall delmar, the poor dude, was like a ticking bomb, like all repressed and depressed.
By all means watch it again -- if only to see this wonderful scene and the accompanying Dozy Embrace!
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In my perception "it's because of you, Jack..." scene is more screaming for help, than blaming Jack. The agressive, out of control but still scream for help. I love to think that "I just can't stand this anymore" was heard by Jack as "I can't stand without you, Jack. Forgive I am not strong enough to change"
And Jack forgave.
That was what I think, too. He wants to stay with Jack, but he can´t :-(
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- i don't get it, why cowboy delmar is blaming senor twist for being the way he is???. maybe the poor dude needed some escape goat and
the only one he thought to blame was twister.
I think cowboy delmar was just all insecure and paranoid
p.s. i really need to take some broke back ennisjack.com seminars to keep up with all the terminology from ya all.
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Well, it was in part an expression of deep frustration and in part a confession of how central Jack's love was to him. Like what others have said here, it was both a complaint and a cry for help. It is a pendant to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" -- which also has two meanings.
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I know I should be "angry" with Ennis for his pasivity but I can't because I understand him too much. What I can't really accept is why Jack did let him go:-((( Why ?
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I think Jack's hug is a kind of answer to the DE. Yes, I love how he responded this way, in spite of his deep frustration and anger. It's an indicator of how much he loved Ennis.
Did Jack accept what Ennis said? I think rather than seeing it as Ennis blaming him (jack) for his failures, Jack understood it as Ennis confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.
I especially agree w/ the fact that Jack understood that Ennis was confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.
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- i don't get it, why cowboy delmar is blaming senor twist for being the way he is???. maybe the poor dude needed some escape goat and
the only one he thought to blame was twister.
I think cowboy delmar was just all insecure and paranoid
p.s. i really need to take some broke back ennisjack.com seminars to keep up with all the terminology from ya all.
I don't think that he was blaming Jack in quite the way you're thinking. I think that this was his way of saying that everything he had done in his life (jobs, moves, etc.) were done so that he could be w/ Jack for the few times a yr. that they would be on BB together. In his own way, he was declaring his love for Jack. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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I know I should be "angry" with Ennis for his pasivity but I can't because I understand him too much. What I can't really accept is why Jack did let him go:-((( Why ?
I don't really believe that it was Jack who could make this decision. Ennis was too stubborn and Jack couldn't do a thing there. He just had to let him go...
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Well, it was in part an expression of deep frustration and in part a confession of how central Jack's love was to him. Like what others have said here, it was both a complaint and a cry for help. It is a pendant to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" -- which also has two meanings.
It is in fact as we said before - in their own way they both admit loving each other. Both fighting the pain that forbidden relationship brought to them, but both saying that they love each other enough to ruin the other parts of their lives.
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I don't think that he was blaming Jack in quite the way you're thinking. I think that this was his way of saying that everything he had done in his life (jobs, moves, etc.) were done so that he could be w/ Jack for the few times a yr. that they would be on BB together. In his own way, he was declaring his love for Jack. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
You're right about the meaning of Ennis's words, Atalley.
It is just one thing - and it is very painful to me - after 1963. they never went to Brokeback again... they've been to other places, many of them, but never to Brokeback... This is very symbolic and tells us that they never had that freedom like in 1963. on BBM. :\'(
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I know I should be "angry" with Ennis for his pasivity but I can't because I understand him too much. What I can't really accept is why Jack did let him go:-((( Why ?
If you understand Ennis, you must certainly also understand Jack. ;)
Perhaps you know the old saying: to let someone you love go is to set him free. IMO, Jack clearly felt that as far as the last Confrontation went, the relationship was torturing Ennis. He inadvertently said as much. Could we blame him for what he tried to do, after he saw what this did to Ennis?
And of course, letting someone go doesn't mean that you don't love him anymore. In many many cases, you let the person go because you love that person too much.
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I especially agree w/ the fact that Jack understood that Ennis was confessing how much their love had completely overpowered him.
And I think it was this confession that turned the tide on Jack's resentment.
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I don't really believe that it was Jack who could make this decision. Ennis was too stubborn and Jack couldn't do a thing there. He just had to let him go...
This is also quite true. For most of the 20 years that the relationship languished, it was Ennis who held the keys, and not Jack.
Also, if the person you loved "blamed" you for what he was or had become, would you not take pause and wonder whether the other person wanting out?
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You're right about the meaning of Ennis's words, Atalley.
It is just one thing - and it is very painful to me - after 1963. they never went to Brokeback again... they've been to other places, many of them, but never to Brokeback... This is very symbolic and tells us that they never had that freedom like in 1963. on BBM. :\'(
Yes,I also believe you're right about this meaning,Anita;I said in a former post that it was a love's declaration "Ennis style". :c)
And you are right too,Loreen about the symbolism of they never returning to BBM-it should be posted in "Double meanings" thread-;all the other mountains and places they were in during these years were a poor substitute of BBM because they never had the same freedom they had there.The mountain,then,is a symbolism in itself of their own world against the rest of the society.
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In the movie, it looks to me like they did go back to BB many times. The SS is different, as it specifies that they did not go back. :f)
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In the movie, it looks to me like they did go back to BB many times. The SS is different, as it specifies that they did not go back. :f)
I don't think so, babe. ^f^ You can see different mountains and vistas and landscapes and no one looks like Brokeback. That mountain is very different from others because of its shape and we don't see it again in the film after the summer of 63. BBM was Jack's favorite place because of what he lived there when he was 19. Everything was perfect there and then, the time he was really happy. In some fishing trips Jack was happy, especially in the earlier years after the reunion, but in other trips Jack and Ennis had arguments and moments of misery when Ennis shot Jack’s plane out of the sky. Those fishing trips with Ennis were for Jack a constant reminder of what he could never have. That’s why I think he didn’t really like the Tetons or the Big Horns even if he spent years going there with Ennis. Those places were not special for Jack, because, yeah, Jack was happy when he was there with Ennis, but also left every time with a broken heart.
Brokeback was another thing....It was where Jack found love when they both were free and young and he had lots of beautiful dreams. If our boys had spent all those years of fishing trips going to BBM, I don’t think that Jack had still thought that it was his favorite place, because it’d be an image of their loving feelings but also of their fears, doubts, lies, shame and what Jack hated the most: that they had to hide like if their love was a crime.
I believe that they never went back to BBM. Even in the trailer you can read the line “there are places we can never return”. And I understand why they never went to BBM again. They didn’t want to stain the memory of something that was precious and perfect and the most unique metaphor of the paradise.
Just my opinion, babe. :^^)
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I don't think so, babe. ^f^ You can see different mountains and vistas and landscapes and no one looks like Brokeback. That mountain is very different from others because of its shape and we don't see it again in the film after the summer of 63. BBM was Jack's favorite place because of what he lived there when he was 19. Everything was perfect there and then, the time he was really happy. In some fishing trips Jack was happy, especially in the earlier years after the reunion, but in other trips Jack and Ennis had arguments and moments of misery when Ennis shot Jack’s plane out of the sky. Those fishing trips with Ennis were for Jack a constant reminder of what he could never have. That’s why I think he didn’t really like the Tetons or the Big Horns even if he spent years going there with Ennis. Those places were not special for Jack, because, yeah, Jack was happy when he was there with Ennis, but also left every time with a broken heart.
Brokeback was another thing....It was where Jack found love when they both were free and young and he had lots of beautiful dreams. If our boys had spent all those years of fishing trips going to BBM, I don’t think that Jack had still thought that it was his favorite place, because it’d be an image of their loving feelings but also of their fears, doubts, lies, shame and what Jack hated the most: that they had to hide like if their love was a crime.
I believe that they never went back to BBM. Even in the trailer you can read the line “there are places we can never return”. And I understand why they never went to BBM again. They didn’t want to stain the memory of something that was precious and perfect and the most unique metaphor of the paradise.
Just my opinion, babe. :^^)
I also think so BT! And I love the bold part even it is hurtful... but true! :\'( :\'(
Now, I am thinking... maybe they were also afraid to go to Brokeback, to face all they had and could have, had they been braver...
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The movie doesn't explicitly say that they went back to BBM, although I know that many viewers assumed that many of the scenes up in the mountains took place on BBM. But this is not explicitly supported by the screenplay itself, which indicates that they are simply up in the mountains, and not specifically BBM.
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And I think it was this confession that turned the tide on Jack's resentment.
That and Ennis's break down. :\'(
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This is also quite true. For most of the 20 years that the relationship languished, it was Ennis who held the keys, and not Jack.
Also, if the person you loved "blamed" you for what he was or had become, would you not take pause and wonder whether the other person wanting out?
IMO the most important reason was Ennis's state of mind - he was shattered. Jack knew that and I believe that he knew that Ennis didn't want the way out of the relationship, but the way out of that unsatisfying situation.
They were happy only when together, but to be together they ruined all the other things in their lives and this few precious moments were in a way too expensive for them. During so many years that became a big burden and they need to resolve situation. The first step was to be alone and think it over. So Ennis left and Jack let him go.
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I don't really believe that it was Jack who could make this decision. Ennis was too stubborn and Jack couldn't do a thing there. He just had to let him go...
If you understand Ennis, you must certainly also understand Jack. ;)
Perhaps you know the old saying: to let someone you love go is to set him free. IMO, Jack clearly felt that as far as the last Confrontation went, the relationship was torturing Ennis. He inadvertently said as much. Could we blame him for what he tried to do, after he saw what this did to Ennis?
And of course, letting someone go doesn't mean that you don't love him anymore. In many many cases, you let the person go because you love that person too much.
Thank you for sharing your opinions. I take them with me to my reality for deep consideration. They relate to one of the most motional apsects of the whole BBM story, still so painful for me.
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IMO the most important reason was Ennis's state of mind - he was shattered. Jack knew that and I believe that he knew that Ennis didn't want the way out of the relationship, but the way out of that unsatisfying situation.
They were happy only when together, but to be together they ruined all the other things in their lives and this few precious moments were in a way too expensive for them. During so many years that became a big burden and they need to resolve situation. The first step was to be alone and think it over. So Ennis left and Jack let him go.
Very well said..I would aso like to add that Ennis was so submissive by nature and a person he ...never wanted to express all that was in his heart.He always bottled up his feelings...But in the FC, when he found out that Jack was with other men , his bottled up feelings came to an exhausion point and he exploded his feelings...He showed Jack how vulnerable he had become...He was conscious about that too, so wanted to stay by himself for sometime, to just figure out as to what happened and what needs to be done..I feel that he came to terms with it and thus wanted to meet Jack but it is too late now..Thats the hugest tragedy of their lives... :\'( :\'( :\'(
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IMO the most important reason was Ennis's state of mind - he was shattered. Jack knew that and I believe that he knew that Ennis didn't want the way out of the relationship, but the way out of that unsatisfying situation.
They were happy only when together, but to be together they ruined all the other things in their lives and this few precious moments were in a way too expensive for them. During so many years that became a big burden and they need to resolve situation. The first step was to be alone and think it over. So Ennis left and Jack let him go.
Thank you for sharing your opinions. I take them with me to my reality for deep consideration. They relate to one of the most motional apsects of the whole BBM story, still so painful for me.
Thanks also. :)
You know, the root of the problem that was exposed by this scene in the Last Confrontation is the lack of communication between them when it comes to expectations and desires. Had this confrontation happened sooner, perhaps it would have made all the difference.
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Thanks also. :)
You know, the root of the problem that was exposed by this scene in the Last Confrontation is the lack of communication between them when it comes to expectations and desires. Had this confrontation happened sooner, perhaps it would have made all the difference.
That is exactly what I was trying to tell in my above post...It was all too late...Ennis wanted to patch up but it bacame too late...Had it been earlier then it would have made thing easier if not completely alright...Losing Jack at that point of time was horrible and the worst that happened....
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That is exactly what I was trying to tell in my above post...It was all too late...Ennis wanted to patch up but it bacame too late...Had it been earlier then it would have made thing easier if not completely alright...Losing Jack at that point of time was horrible and the worst that happened....
I do think time was very critical. In the case of Jack also -- perhaps he should have pushed Ennis sooner, and moved him just in time before it became too late for both of them.
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I do think time was very critical. In the case of Jack also -- perhaps he should have pushed Ennis sooner, and moved him just in time before it became too late for both of them.
Yes,this subject has already appeared in some other occasions,and I have always agreed in that Jack's fear to push Ennis too much against the ropes was a great obstacle during too many years.Surely,he was afraid of him running away,and losing him,but this joined to their real lack of communication in the subjects that really affected them the most,were a real and drmatic lost of time for them.
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Very well said..I would aso like to add that Ennis was so submissive by nature and a person he ...never wanted to express all that was in his heart.He always bottled up his feelings...But in the FC, when he found out that Jack was with other men , his bottled up feelings came to an exhausion point and he exploded his feelings...He showed Jack how vulnerable he had become...He was conscious about that too, so wanted to stay by himself for sometime, to just figure out as to what happened and what needs to be done..I feel that he came to terms with it and thus wanted to meet Jack but it is too late now..Thats the hugest tragedy of their lives... :\'( :\'( :\'(
Yup! And, besides shirts - the biggest strike for our hearts! :\'( Especially because we were prepared for a solution, for a change, for (if we are allowed to hope) a sweet life.... the words were finally spoken out, the truth as much as it was hurtful was told, a form of love statements were said from both sides, Jack embraced Ennis in the end... and then... a knife in the back! Jack died!
I don't know if I admitted this before, and I think not, coz it's stupid - but for a while I hated AP for killing Jack! :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Thanks also. :)
You know, the root of the problem that was exposed by this scene in the Last Confrontation is the lack of communication between them when it comes to expectations and desires. Had this confrontation happened sooner, perhaps it would have made all the difference.
You're so right here. I believe that it would have made a big difference. Jack never pressed on Ennis so hard as in FC, he always let him slip away without the real solution. Jack just waited far too long. Damn!
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That is exactly what I was trying to tell in my above post...It was all too late...Ennis wanted to patch up but it bacame too late...Had it been earlier then it would have made thing easier if not completely alright...Losing Jack at that point of time was horrible and the worst that happened....
I like the bold part - "easier, if not completely right"! Yup! Both better than the final outcome!
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Yes,this subject has already appeared in some other occasions,and I have always agreed in that Jack's fear to push Ennis too much against the ropes was a great obstacle during too many years.Surely,he was afraid of him running away,and losing him,but this joined to their real lack of communication in the subjects that really affected them the most,were a real and drmatic lost of time for them.
Unfortunately, it is often so in the RL too - being afraid of losing something, we avoid taking the proper steps, and finally we lose much more! %&)
In their case the loss was unimaginable! :\'(
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Unfortunately, it is often so in the RL too - being afraid of losing something, we avoid taking the proper steps, and finally we lose much more! %&)
In their case the loss was unimaginable! :\'(
Yes,you're right...It seems inherent to human being to learn from things only when these have happenned,and not for good...But in this case,I guess that Jack knew Ennis much better even than himself,so I knew for sure that putting him against the ropes too early,in a kind of FC much years before,could have had a contrary effect.Ennis would have been more closed in his shell,because he would have been afraid of the immediacy of giving Jack an answer about something that had been his main fear during years.It's such a pity,however¡... :\'(
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Yup! And, besides shirts - the biggest strike for our hearts! :\'( Especially because we were prepared for a solution, for a change, for (if we are allowed to hope) a sweet life.... the words were finally spoken out, the truth as much as it was hurtful was told, a form of love statements were said from both sides, Jack embraced Ennis in the end... and then... a knife in the back! Jack died!
I don't know if I admitted this before, and I think not, coz it's stupid - but for a while I hated AP for killing Jack! :\'( :\'( :\'(
I can completely understand this....Jack's death has made this story so impactful..Seriously, the loss of Jack and Ennis living alone for the rest of his life haunts our thoughts...BBM has become an eternal story for alot of reasons including Jack's death and his death made us longing for him forever..
Ang definitely knew how to hit the human hearts' chord so hard that the pain vibrates all along....Very few directors know how to get that side of humans emotionality for good...
I like the bold part - "easier, if not completely right"! Yup! Both better than the final outcome!
I have always believed this....I have always thoughts that the timing ff eveyrthing happening with Ennis and Jack was really bad...If Ennis would have met him after FC then even if all the wounds would not have recovered, atleast there would be a solace in Ennis and Jack's heart that all the repressed feelings r out and Jack and Ennis would say it open how much they mean to each other and things would have been different..But, alas, it was too too late
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Yes,this subject has already appeared in some other occasions,and I have always agreed in that Jack's fear to push Ennis too much against the ropes was a great obstacle during too many years.Surely,he was afraid of him running away,and losing him,but this joined to their real lack of communication in the subjects that really affected them the most,were a real and drmatic lost of time for them.
Jack I think tried a number of times, but he always backed down because of his own fear that Ennis would smply balk. Nonetheless, I think that Jack should have tried to continue the discussion -- rather than simply leaving the field to Ennis. I think especially of the scene by the river, where Jack said he was "thinking out loud". Rather than run away, he should have acknowledged that those where true difficulties and explored whether or not Ennis was simply hiding behind them.
But perhaps this was too much to ask of Jack. It does take 2 to tango.
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Jack I think tried a number of times, but he always backed down because of his own fear that Ennis would smply balk. Nonetheless, I think that Jack should have tried to continue the discussion -- rather than simply leaving the field to Ennis. I think especially of the scene by the river, where Jack said he was "thinking out loud". Rather than run away, he should have acknowledged that those where true difficulties and explored whether or not Ennis was simply hiding behind them.
But perhaps this was too much to ask of Jack. It does take 2 to tango.
Yes,I also think in this scene as one of the opportunities when Jack had could moved the ball to his roof by making Ennis understand what kind of environment they could find in Texas,f.e.Although it was difficult,I guess,trying to reason with an Ennis in such a cinic state of mind like this,in almost 20 years there could have had many opportunities to speak about their present and future without the bitterness of the FC...
Very often,we leave talking about something important in our lives for fear,and these constant silences grow inside us until they explode;that's when we talk about this subject in the worst way we can,it's to say,with bitterness,sarcasm and telling things all of a sudden...And it's obvious that Ennis and Jack,for whatever reasons,had this behaviour during all their lives...until they exploded in a FC where all the hidden feelings came out without control nor reason... :-\\
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I can completely understand this....Jack's death has made this story so impactful..Seriously, the loss of Jack and Ennis living alone for the rest of his life haunts our thoughts...BBM has become an eternal story for alot of reasons including Jack's death and his death made us longing for him forever..
Ang definitely knew how to hit the human hearts' chord so hard that the pain vibrates all along....Very few directors know how to get that side of humans emotionality for good...
I have always believed this....I have always thoughts that the timing ff eveyrthing happening with Ennis and Jack was really bad...If Ennis would have met him after FC then even if all the wounds would not have recovered, atleast there would be a solace in Ennis and Jack's heart that all the repressed feelings r out and Jack and Ennis would say it open how much they mean to each other and things would have been different..But, alas, it was too too late
AP said that this was the only possible ending. And I am deeply aware that had Jack lived, we would have never feel so profoundly touched as we do now. So... if we change the end - it would be just an ordinary story. But - the only thing we really want to do is exactly -changing the end! That's so weird. :i
FC had a perfect timing in SS/movie to make us more desperate for the unfortunate death of Jack Twist. We were prepared to the possibility of positive changes, Ennis accepting Jack's infidelity in the past and maybe even considering the "sweet life".
I remember here - the first time I watched BBM (and I had no feelings for Ennis or for Jack at the time), when Jack said accusingly: "I had... once!" that I was thinking - Well, what changed? You can still have it! Maybe now you can make him change his mind... I think that we all think so there - you still have the chance! You go boys, take that chance... But they never grab it. It slipped away... Even so, in a way, they told each other how they feel for each other. And if Ennis didn't completely understand that there, then he did in LF... :\'(
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Yes,I also think in this scene as one of the opportunities when Jack had could moved the ball to his roof by making Ennis understand what kind of environment they could find in Texas,f.e.Although it was difficult,I guess,trying to reason with an Ennis in such a cinic state of mind like this,in almost 20 years there could have had many opportunities to speak about their present and future without the bitterness of the FC...
Very often,we leave talking about something important in our lives for fear,and these constant silences grow inside us until they explode;that's when we talk about this subject in the worst way we can,it's to say,with bitterness,sarcasm and telling things all of a sudden...And it's obvious that Ennis and Jack,for whatever reasons,had this behaviour during all their lives...until they exploded in a FC where all the hidden feelings came out without control nor reason... :-\\
Yes, when it comes to the things that really matter, we sometimes tend to delay, because we are afraid of any momentous consequences that may unfold, quickly forgetting that the longer the delay, the harding things become to turn around.
Jack perhaps had too much patience. But he may also have been too afraid of losing Ennis, and was all too willing to bide his time so long as the door was left a little open and nothing got resolved.
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Yes, when it comes to the things that really matter, we sometimes tend to delay, because we are afraid of any momentous consequences that may unfold, quickly forgetting that the longer the delay, the harding things become to turn around.Jack perhaps had too much patience. But he may also have been too afraid of losing Ennis, and was all too willing to bide his time so long as the door was left a little open and nothing got resolved.
Yes,this is true...But sometimes-very often-we preferred to postpone the great decision by keeping what we have.Insecure,unsatisfactory,in a way we don't like at all,but at least WE HAVE IT.And we're able to delay arguments and decisions,even if we know that the more we last,the most difficult it will be after,if this means to save what we have.If being too much in a hurry could mean loosing this imperfect situation for the nothing.
And I guess that this is what Jack was afraid of,even if this situation-so many times delayed in its solution-was clearly painful for him;but he must think that in love sometimes is better to have 50% of something regular than 100% nothing,whatever god it could be...
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AP said that this was the only possible ending. And I am deeply aware that had Jack lived, we would have never feel so profoundly touched as we do now. So... if we change the end - it would be just an ordinary story. But - the only thing we really want to do is exactly -changing the end! That's so weird. :i
FC had a perfect timing in SS/movie to make us more desperate for the unfortunate death of Jack Twist. We were prepared to the possibility of positive changes, Ennis accepting Jack's infidelity in the past and maybe even considering the "sweet life".
I remember here - the first time I watched BBM (and I had no feelings for Ennis or for Jack at the time), when Jack said accusingly: "I had... once!" that I was thinking - Well, what changed? You can still have it! Maybe now you can make him change his mind... I think that we all think so there - you still have the chance! You go boys, take that chance... But they never grab it. It slipped away... Even so, in a way, they told each other how they feel for each other. And if Ennis didn't completely understand that there, then he did in LF... :\'(
This is so true....If BBM had an happy ending then we all would be so happy..The intensity of hurt and PBS we face would not have been there...Ang knew that he is making a film that will impact generations and the tragic end of the film has made it immortal in our minds and in the generations to come..Ya, there was a chance of their "sweet life" if Jack would have not been taken away at that time..
As u said, we r so deeply wounded with the end but know that this film is an eternal masterpiece of love that could not be possbile in the open when Jack was alive and then when there was hope, he was gone..But we know that this is what grips us and we want to change that...A very strong and helpless feeling....
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This is so true....If BBM had an happy ending then we all would be so happy..The intensity of hurt and PBS we face would not have been there...Ang knew that he is making a film that will impact generations and the tragic end of the film has made it immortal in our minds and in the generations to come..Ya, there was a chance of their "sweet life" if Jack would have not been taken away at that time..
As u said, we r so deeply wounded with the end but know that this film is an eternal masterpiece of love that could not be possbile in the open when Jack was alive and then when there was hope, he was gone..But we know that this is what grips us and we want to change that...A very strong and helpless feeling....
What I can say for sure is that BBM changed me for good. Nothing will ever be the same after my PBS! :i
IMHO, the SS and the movie were like a trigger points to provoke an avalanche of many other possible outcome of the story (in our hearts) and in my mind I think of Ennis and Jack in the earthly paradise of their sweet life. The thing that's sometimes disturbing me killing me more than the sad ending of their beautiful love is that Ennis is not with us any more... :-\\ Strange, but... I just feel that way...
Uh, I am way OT....
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What I can say for sure is that BBM changed me for good. Nothing will ever be the same after my PBS! :i
IMHO, the SS and the movie were like a trigger points to provoke an avalanche of many other possible outcome of the story (in our hearts) and in my mind I think of Ennis and Jack in the earthly paradise of their sweet life. The thing that's sometimes disturbing me killing me more than the sad ending of their beautiful love is that Ennis is not with us any more... :-\\ Strange, but... I just feel that way...
Uh, I am way OT....
Sorry for *o) but could not stay out and do not send the warm :ghug: for Loreen.
I feel similar. Not exactly the same but similar. Not knowing which one of them is real and which one is fictional, I don't want to believe Heath is really gone and Ennis will never come back. I close my eyes to not see the truth. Like the kid closing his eyes do not see what makes him scared. You are not alone with your sorrow, Loreen.
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Thank all of you for the wonderful discussion of what Jack could (should?) do to try to affect Ennis and make him step into their sweet life. Reading your posts let me realize so clearly that also Jack was inhibited by his fear, fear of loosing Enis. Poor Jack:-( Poor Ennis:-( Both bound by their fears. Remembering discussion in thread "Which is the Greater Sorrow" I would say that fear was the only one sin in their relation. If there is something they should repent of, these are their fears. Different but somehow so similar :\'(
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Sorry for *o) but could not stay out and do not send the warm :ghug: for Loreen.
I feel similar. Not exactly the same but similar. Not knowing which one of them is real and which one is fictional, I don't want to believe Heath is really gone and Ennis will never come back. I close my eyes to not see the truth. Like the kid closing his eyes do not see what makes him scared. You are not alone with your sorrow, Loreen.
Thanks for the supporting words babe! :^^)
And to go back to the topic I can only say: It's because of you Ennis and Jack, that I'm like this... :i
:c)
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Yes,this is true...But sometimes-very often-we preferred to postpone the great decision by keeping what we have.Insecure,unsatisfactory,in a way we don't like at all,but at least WE HAVE IT.And we're able to delay arguments and decisions,even if we know that the more we last,the most difficult it will be after,if this means to save what we have.If being too much in a hurry could mean loosing this imperfect situation for the nothing.
And I guess that this is what Jack was afraid of,even if this situation-so many times delayed in its solution-was clearly painful for him;but he must think that in love sometimes is better to have 50% of something regular than 100% nothing,whatever god it could be...
The irony of it all is that very often, we lose what we have precisely this way. Especially in love. The more we cling to the status quo and resist the inevitable, the faster it slips away. And by not doing anything, we simply move towards deeper despeartion. One of the beauties of film is to see Jack take on an increasingly desperate stance -- his drinking and melancholy in the last years emerge so naturally from his inability to push for what he believed in.
He had forgotten that he had "hooked" Ennis in the first place by forcing the issue -- in FNIT.
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Thank all of you for the wonderful discussion of what Jack could (should?) do to try to affect Ennis and make him step into their sweet life. Reading your posts let me realize so clearly that also Jack was inhibited by his fear, fear of loosing Enis. Poor Jack:-( Poor Ennis:-( Both bound by their fears. Remembering discussion in thread "Which is the Greater Sorrow" I would say that fear was the only one sin in their relation. If there is something they should repent of, these are their fears. Different but somehow so similar :\'(
Exactly -- Jack succumbed to his fear of losing Ennis if he forced the issue about having a life together. It is a pendant to Ennis's own fear of leading the life that he really wanted to live. BBM is, in fact, as study of fear. And ironically -- it is this fear that would have allowed Jack to say the same thing to Ennis: "It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this..."
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What I can say for sure is that BBM changed me for good. Nothing will ever be the same after my PBS! :i
IMHO, the SS and the movie were like a trigger points to provoke an avalanche of many other possible outcome of the story (in our hearts) and in my mind I think of Ennis and Jack in the earthly paradise of their sweet life. The thing that's sometimes disturbing me killing me more than the sad ending of their beautiful love is that Ennis is not with us any more... :-\\ Strange, but... I just feel that way...
Uh, I am way OT....
Sorry for *o) but could not stay out and do not send the warm :ghug: for Loreen.
I feel similar. Not exactly the same but similar. Not knowing which one of them is real and which one is fictional, I don't want to believe Heath is really gone and Ennis will never come back. I close my eyes to not see the truth. Like the kid closing his eyes do not see what makes him scared. You are not alone with your sorrow, Loreen.
Loreen and Traveller, :ghug: I think this feeling you describe is very similar to what all of us have felt in some moment of our PBS.But I have realised in the end that only Heath has gone,unluckily;Ennis is an immortal character who will remains forever into our hearts and minds.As long as we feel this empathy for any of them,or for both of them,Ennis will be alive into us,and his,their,sacrifice,will be forever a proof that love always win,even if it's far beyond death...So,keep on loving Heath,Ennis and Jack so that their message can be diminished in our feelings,and they will be forever alive.A great :ghug: again for whoever can need it.
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Exactly -- Jack succumbed to his fear of losing Ennis if he forced the issue about having a life together. It is a pendant to Ennis's own fear of leading the life that he really wanted to live. BBM is, in fact, as study of fear. And ironically -- it is this fear that would have allowed Jack to say the same thing to Ennis: "It's because of you, Ennis, that I'm like this..."
That is ¡An study of fear;fear of society,fear of having a love,fear of losing it,even fear of themselves and fear f the other one...And I also agree in that this phrase could be said for any of them,each one for their reasons,each one being right in their own way...
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*o) I agree with u all and all your posts r beautiful and very touching..
Our love for Ennis and Jack is eternal..
Getting back to the topic, for Ennis to say the words to Jack that it is because of him that he is like this shows that their love was such a force that ruled his life..Whether Jack was in front of him or not, his love was always with Ennis and his entire life was surrounded by the feelings of Jack which never left him...Its actually the love Ennis had for Jack which made him say those words..His life was all for Jack..Ya..I agree that the dream of the "Sweet life", could not be possible when they were young bacause Ennis could not let his fears out but even if all was in secret to Ennis, Jack was most important and the love of his life..After knowing that Jack was with other men, the love that Ennis had for him came out like sadnees and hurt and with that came the words "Its because of u...."
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I totally agree that his love for Jack made Ennis say these words.
I know some members believe that the reason of Ennis's reaction was his homophony. I never thought that way. I never believed Ennis's homophony was the real obstacle. But it's only my interpretation. It could be wrong. I believe Ennis was inhibited by his social constraints, not necessary homophony as this one implies not only fear of being in not-accepted minority but also some kind of imprinted aversion to emotional, physical and sexual intimacy with person of the same gender.
Coming back to your post I only would like to add that in my perception Ennis's "It's because of..." was to some degree his uncontrolled and born of his fear of loosing his Little Darlin, reaction to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" :\'(
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That is ¡An study of fear;fear of society,fear of having a love,fear of losing it,even fear of themselves and fear f the other one...And I also agree in that this phrase could be said for any of them,each one for their reasons,each one being right in their own way...
Each one had their own reasons, but for some cruel twist of fate, both were blind for a very long time: blind that at the root of the other's fear is a love that was too strong for either one of them.
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*o) I agree with u all and all your posts r beautiful and very touching..
Our love for Ennis and Jack is eternal..
Getting back to the topic, for Ennis to say the words to Jack that it is because of him that he is like this shows that their love was such a force that ruled his life..Whether Jack was in front of him or not, his love was always with Ennis and his entire life was surrounded by the feelings of Jack which never left him...Its actually the love Ennis had for Jack which made him say those words..His life was all for Jack..Ya..I agree that the dream of the "Sweet life", could not be possible when they were young bacause Ennis could not let his fears out but even if all was in secret to Ennis, Jack was most important and the love of his life..After knowing that Jack was with other men, the love that Ennis had for him came out like sadnees and hurt and with that came the words "Its because of u...."
Yes, this is what I meant in my last post abouty "blindness". I strongly agree that for both of them: "their love was such a force that ruled his life." It is a pity that:
1. Ennis didn't realize that Jack wanted more than just once-in-a-blue-moon companionship up in the mountains and that Jack's love for him went beyond all that.
And:
2. Jack didn't realize the true depth of Ennis's love -- deep enough to challenge a lifetime of fear and loneliness, and a faithfulness that was beyond death.
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Each one had their own reasons, but for some cruel twist of fate, both were blind for a very long time: blind that at the root of the other's fear is a love that was too strong for either one of them.
This is so beautiful! (t)
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Yes, this is what I meant in my last post abouty "blindness". I strongly agree that for both of them: "their love was such a force that ruled his life." It is a pity that:
1. Ennis didn't realize that Jack wanted more than just once-in-a-blue-moon companionship up in the mountains and that Jack's love for him went beyond all that.
And:
2. Jack didn't realize the true depth of Ennis's love -- deep enough to challenge a lifetime of fear and loneliness, and a faithfulness that was beyond death.
:s) You are truly inspired today! O0 ^f^
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I totally agree that his love for Jack made Ennis say these words.
I know some members believe that the reason of Ennis's reaction was his homophony. I never thought that way. I never believed Ennis's homophony was the real obstacle. But it's only my interpretation. It could be wrong. I believe Ennis was inhibited by his social constraints, not necessary homophony as this one implies not only fear of being in not-accepted minority but also some kind of imprinted aversion to emotional, physical and sexual intimacy with person of the same gender.
Coming back to your post I only would like to add that in my perception Ennis's "It's because of..." was to some degree his uncontrolled and born of his fear of loosing his Little Darlin, reaction to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" :\'(
This is a very interesting POV, traveller. It differs from mine, to be sure, but I see your point. Homophobia may or may not be understood within a greater societal context.
And yes, Ennis was reacting to Jack's frustration -- the thought of losing Jack because of his inability to move on weas tearing Ennis apart...
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:s) You are truly inspired today! O0 ^f^
Thanks loreen. OT: computer problems this morning here at work perhaps may have something to do with it! ;) ;D
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Thanks loreen. OT: computer problems this morning here at work perhaps may have something to do with it! ;) ;D
OT: Maybe, but it a long shot! ;D
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I totally agree that his love for Jack made Ennis say these words.
I know some members believe that the reason of Ennis's reaction was his homophony. I never thought that way. I never believed Ennis's homophony was the real obstacle. But it's only my interpretation. It could be wrong. I believe Ennis was inhibited by his social constraints, not necessary homophony as this one implies not only fear of being in not-accepted minority but also some kind of imprinted aversion to emotional, physical and sexual intimacy with person of the same gender.
Coming back to your post I only would like to add that in my perception Ennis's "It's because of..." was to some degree his uncontrolled and born of his fear of loosing his Little Darlin, reaction to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you" :\'(
Beautiful post,Traveller,even if I don't agree completely.I really believe that Ennis homophobia played a great role in all their situation,and that it was also the real obstacle.Neither his economical duties with his girls-whatever true they were-,nor a new job he couldn't lose,were the REAL reason.The "weakest" point in Ennis mind was his inner struggle between the "want" and the "must",and this struggle was dictated almost all his life by fear of being what he was; a man in love with another man.I have always believed also that very often Ennis not only was afraid of,but also somehow "hated" Jack for what he made him feel and himself for being able of feeling it.
But,in spite of all this,his reaction during FC wasn't dictated by homophobia,not this time;it was,IMO,a burst of everything he had inside himself during so many years,a kind of relief from the jealousy attack he had previously had and,mainly and above all,the fear of losing Jack-as you said so wonderfully in your post-.He realised then that all what his lover was saying was true,he knew much before that it was;but hearing them in Jack's voice was a kind of confirmation to him,the confirmation that this one was arriving to something similar to a point of no return.I said in a former post not so long ago that it was all a love's declaration "Ennis style";too late,in the worst moment maybe,but love was dictating this phrase.
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Thank you for you friendly respecting of my view. I am afraid my opinion on Ennis's homophobia made me one person minority but I had to share this one with you as knowing your thoughts is always very important and invaluable lesson for me. It helps so much to verify my own comprehension.
I told you I don't really believe in Ennis's homophobia as I think he gave up this one when he let himself for deep and true intimacy with Jack. For me it was like crossing the boarder.
Ennis left behind his hatred against gays but was certainly still carried a lot of his fears. IMO.
As far as I can remember I also hated gays and lesbians when I was a child. My hatred was reflecting the opinions of my environs and my terrible fear of being sent to hell:-) As a teenager I begun to follow my own way and made the acceptance and liberal attitude one of the basic principles of my own philosophy.
I was proud of my personal change but it came the day when I had to call this one in question. It was the day when one of my colleagues admitted to be a lesbian and simply came out. I was shocked not by her sexual orientation but by my own reaction. From the outside I was acting like the liberal and open person. It was not difficult as we both were lucky to be part of “politically correct small society”. The most important was my inside because I felt I built the invisible wall between us. The truth is we have never been more than just fellow workers but the wall was the fact. I realized I was somehow afraid of her. It was like aversion, lack of trust, and something more that I don't want to remember. She left for another city and I lost my faith that I really overcame my childhood's beliefs.
And then came one spring that show me the real difference between “homophobic person” and “not homophobic person”. I felt in love with women and I didn't reject this one. I didn't overcame my social fear and never came out but I certainly experienced that what really matters is love and not gender. I think it is somehow like Ennis's situation – never overcoming social fear but loosing his belief that love is reserved for men/women couple and what even more important loosing his aversion for intimacy with men. With Jack.
It seems to me that even if we declare ourselves as not homophobic person, we can't be sure of that as long as we are not sure of our inner approval to be very close with the person of the same gender. Not necessary to be but to accept the possibility.
It seems to me that being so close with the person of the same sex as Ennis was with Jack, excludes the homophobia.
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Thank you for you friendly respecting of my view. I am afraid my opinion on Ennis's homophobia made me one person minority but I had to share this one with you as knowing your thoughts is always very important and invaluable lesson for me. It helps so much to verify my own comprehension.
I told you I don't really believe in Ennis's homophobia as I think he gave up this one when he let himself for deep and true intimacy with Jack. For me it was like crossing the boarder.
Ennis left behind his hatred against gays but was certainly still carried a lot of his fears. IMO.
As far as I can remember I also hated gays and lesbians when I was a child. My hatred was reflecting the opinions of my environs and my terrible fear of being sent to hell:-) As a teenager I begun to follow my own way and made the acceptance and liberal attitude one of the basic principles of my own philosophy.
I was proud of my personal change but it came the day when I had to call this one in question. It was the day when one of my colleagues admitted to be a lesbian and simply came out. I was shocked not by her sexual orientation but by my own reaction. From the outside I was acting like the liberal and open person. It was not difficult as we both were lucky to be part of “politically correct small society”. The most important was my inside because I felt I built the invisible wall between us. The truth is we have never been more than just fellow workers but the wall was the fact. I realized I was somehow afraid of her. It was like aversion, lack of trust, and something more that I don't want to remember. She left for another city and I lost my faith that I really overcame my childhood's beliefs.
And then came one spring that show me the real difference between “homophobic person” and “not homophobic person”. I felt in love with women and I didn't reject this one. I didn't overcame my social fear and never came out but I certainly experienced that what really matters is love and not gender. I think it is somehow like Ennis's situation – never overcoming social fear but loosing his belief that love is reserved for men/women couple and what even more important loosing his aversion for intimacy with men. With Jack.
It seems to me that even if we declare ourselves as not homophobic person, we can't be sure of that as long as we are not sure of our inner approval to be very close with the person of the same gender. Not necessary to be but to accept the possibility.
It seems to me that being so close with the person of the same sex as Ennis was with Jack, excludes the homophobia.
You bring out the distinction quite well, traveller. There is a distinction between true individual homophobia and fear inculcated by a homophobic society. Although I do personally think that there was indeed a core of homophobia in Ennis that struggled against his own nature and feelings, I also agree that a great deal of it also had to do with the fear of going against a disapproving society.
It is up to each of us, I guess. The interpretation of the Last Confrontation would assume a different light, depending on what POV we take. But there is no right or wrong answer in this. There is only the way in how this scene and the painful exchange between Ennis and Jack speaks to each of us.
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I told you I don't really believe in Ennis's homophobia as I think he gave up this one when he let himself for deep and true intimacy with Jack. For me it was like crossing the boarder.
Ennis left behind his hatred against gays but was certainly still carried a lot of his fears. IMO.
It seems to me that even if we declare ourselves as not homophobic person, we can't be sure of that as long as we are not sure of our inner approval to be very close with the person of the same gender. Not necessary to be but to accept the possibility.
It seems to me that being so close with the person of the same sex as Ennis was with Jack, excludes the homophobia.
Hm... this is an interesting POV.
I also think that Ennis entering the tent left all his fears and homophobia behind. That was one moment on mountains, 1963. when nothin seemed wrong...
I can't remember though the outcome of a conversation here about - what Ennis thought about their relationship in whole, how did he experienced "this thing", what was he thinking about his feelings for Jack and Jack's for him until he finally found the shirts? If not for love, how could he explain subjecting all his life to those few times "fishing trips" a year with Jack? For me it is a mystery.
Still his very rude words in FC : "... for the boys like you!"... meaning - "for the queers like you!" clearly showed that his individual homophobia has not been overcome, over long 20 years.
He had it all the time in himself, and now I am thinking that maybe it was the bigger reason for refusing Jack so many times than a fear of the society condemn itself. Coz his father didn't only left an aboriginal fear in him, but also a disgust for the "queers". His love and need for Jack was too strong to be able to reject it completely for the homophobia reasons, but homophobia was in him longer than Jack's love and it unfortunately led him to the sad ending...
I believe that in Ennis's case his personal homophobia and society homophobia were intervened into a high wall through which only a occasional rays of Jack's love were allowed to enter. And although he was hungry all his life for that love, he just couldn't overcome himself, and he was a clear reflection of the homophobia incorporated in him since childhood.
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Hm... this is an interesting POV.
I also think that Ennis entering the tent left all his fears and homophobia behind. That was one moment on mountains, 1963. when nothin seemed wrong...
I can't remember though the outcome of a conversation here about - what Ennis thought about their relationship in whole, how did he experienced "this thing", what was he thinking about his feelings for Jack and Jack's for him until he finally found the shirts? If not for love, how could he explain subjecting all his life to those few times "fishing trips" a year with Jack? For me it is a mystery.
Still his very rude words in FC : "... for the boys like you!"... meaning - "for the queers like you!" clearly showed that his individual homophobia has not been overcome, over long 20 years.
He had it all the time in himself, and now I am thinking that maybe it was the bigger reason for refusing Jack so many times than a fear of the society condemn itself. Coz his father didn't only left an aboriginal fear in him, but also a disgust for the "queers". His love and need for Jack was too strong to be able to reject it completely for the homophobia reasons, but homophobia was in him longer than Jack's love and it unfortunately led him to the sad ending...
I believe that in Ennis's case his personal homophobia and society homophobia were intervened into a high wall through which only a occasional rays of Jack's love were allowed to enter. And although he was hungry all his life for that love, he just couldn't overcome himself, and he was a clear reflection of the homophobia incorporated in him since childhood.
I agree with you on the fact that when he did enter the tent, he left his homophobia outside... although I also do think that when he left that very tent it came back. When you said about "for the boys like you", I find that Ennis was still in denial about how he felt toward Jack, and maybe toward men in general so, maybe, he only saw Jack as possibly that 'boy' while he himself wasn't; He was still homophobic but couldn't come to terms with it so he blamed Jack for making him feel that way... Maybe he hated himself for loving Jack but at the same time knew that he needed Jack, and that he really did love him.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Even (and maybe because) different from my own, always give me important impulse for my considerations. Thanks once again.
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I agree with you on the fact that when he did enter the tent, he left his homophobia outside... although I also do think that when he left that very tent it came back. When you said about "for the boys like you", I find that Ennis was still in denial about how he felt toward Jack, and maybe toward men in general so, maybe, he only saw Jack as possibly that 'boy' while he himself wasn't; He was still homophobic but couldn't come to terms with it so he blamed Jack for making him feel that way... Maybe he hated himself for loving Jack but at the same time knew that he needed Jack, and that he really did love him.
Hi LV! ^f^ Long time no see! :)
Hm.. I am not so sure thatthe homophobia came back as he left the tent. Coz immediately after SNIT we saw him - Ennis, teasing Jack and provoking the physical contact outside the tent, in open! I think that his homophobia was always there in a way, but grew to beat the love by the time they had to leave Brokeback. Since then all his life was a painful struggle with himself and the things that were killing him.
I agree that his love for Jack was the feeling that gave him the strength for living and the fear of loving. All that in one man can only be an awful thing to tolerate...
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Yes, Toadily, to what degree is a bit puzzling. Although Ennis may refer here to his poverty, I think his main accusation is that Jack, to some degree, is to blame for his failed marriage and his inability to love anybody else with true depth and passion. It is almost as if Ennis was blaming Jack for his (Ennis) being in love with him (jack)!!!!
I know some saw it was Ennis blaming Jack for their love affair...that somehow Jack made Ennis gay. But I read it differently. To me "this" was modified by "nothing" and "nowhere". Ennis had finally confessed something to Jack that he'd never said before "I'd just quit those jobs". So what Jack never knew was that Ennis sacrificed his financial welfare, the financial welfare of his family, his standing in the community, his standing to his family, and ultimately his (farce of a) marriage to be available for his time with Jack. So he literally sacrificed everything, including his happiness, to walk this tightrope. And now, he thinks he's nothing and nowhere...and he is. He'd be somewhere if he'd taken the risk that Jack asked him to and he still refuses to see it. Why does he blame Jack for the sacrifices he willingly made for love? Because Jack wanted more and didn't see how much he'd given up already. But Jack wasn't greedy...he just didn't know.
When you said about "for the boys like you", I find that Ennis was still in denial about how he felt toward Jack, and maybe toward men in general so, maybe, he only saw Jack as possibly that 'boy' while he himself wasn't;
Honestly, I don't think he was ever in denial about his feelings for Jack. I honestly think that Ennis somehow saw his relationship with Jack as "nobody's business but our own". In other words, until Jack admitted to other men, Ennis had convinced himself that he was "normal" and only had one vice...Jack. In other words, Ennis was in denial that he wasn't straight. How many times did he say "I'm no queer", or "I wonder if I was...but I know I ain't", etc.? He was in complete denial as to his orientation. Living with Jack would require him to admit that his love for Jack wasn't a twice a week vacation excursion.
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Hey there jedi:
Just to say I agree with you on both points. "I'm like this", IMO was Ennis's view of his financial and social failure, the result of his many sacrifices to be with Jack. And boys "like you", meant queers, of which Ennis didn't count himself as one. Though Jack had gotten beyond this, Ennis never did or allowed himself feelings for other men, so he didn't see himself as queer. So by extension Ennis wouldn't think "I'm like this" was being queer, since by his logic he wasn't.
This is not an unusual twist of logic that many "straight" men use, even though they have sex with men, (sometimes anonymously) they don't feel that makes them queer. But, as Ennis would say - Huh?
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I know some saw it was Ennis blaming Jack for their love affair...that somehow Jack made Ennis gay. But I read it differently. To me "this" was modified by "nothing" and "nowhere". Ennis had finally confessed something to Jack that he'd never said before "I'd just quit those jobs". So what Jack never knew was that Ennis sacrificed his financial welfare, the financial welfare of his family, his standing in the community, his standing to his family, and ultimately his (farce of a) marriage to be available for his time with Jack. So he literally sacrificed everything, including his happiness, to walk this tightrope. And now, he thinks he's nothing and nowhere...and he is. He'd be somewhere if he'd taken the risk that Jack asked him to and he still refuses to see it. Why does he blame Jack for the sacrifices he willingly made for love? Because Jack wanted more and didn't see how much he'd given up already. But Jack wasn't greedy...he just didn't know.
Interesting point, jedibarrister. Do you think that after the Last Confrontation, Jack did know?
I think what could have blinded Jack to all this was his willingness to do the same. Perhaps (by his logic), he was willing to give up much more, and this blinded him to the realtively large sacrifices that Ennis had already made...
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I think once Ennis deflated and dropped in front of Jack, if Jack had any doubts about Ennis' feelings, he'd be dumb. Ennis' confession also was clear enough that Jack realized it. Ennis also said, through tears, that he's NOT happy with a "couple of high-altitude Fs, once or twice a year" when he said "I can't stand it anymore". That's the refrain for Ennis: "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." And he's telling Jack he can't stand it anymore. Yes they torqued things back up and planned on November but who knows what would've happened from there...or if Randall would've let Jack go at all.
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I think once Ennis deflated and dropped in front of Jack, if Jack had any doubts about Ennis' feelings, he'd be dumb. Ennis' confession also was clear enough that Jack realized it. Ennis also said, through tears, that he's NOT happy with a "couple of high-altitude Fs, once or twice a year" when he said "I can't stand it anymore". That's the refrain for Ennis: "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." And he's telling Jack he can't stand it anymore. Yes they torqued things back up and planned on November but who knows what would've happened from there...or if Randall would've let Jack go at all.
Hi there and welcome (a little late for that - I know!) :)
I like how you put most of other things and I agree with them - Ennis's words were a clear love statement and Jack understood them as he always did understand Ennis.
But, I don't think that Randall had anything to say when it comes to Jack's love for Ennis and I am sure that Jack would've showed up on November too.
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I think once Ennis deflated and dropped in front of Jack, if Jack had any doubts about Ennis' feelings, he'd be dumb. Ennis' confession also was clear enough that Jack realized it. Ennis also said, through tears, that he's NOT happy with a "couple of high-altitude Fs, once or twice a year" when he said "I can't stand it anymore". That's the refrain for Ennis: "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." And he's telling Jack he can't stand it anymore. Yes they torqued things back up and planned on November but who knows what would've happened from there...or if Randall would've let Jack go at all.
But the crux of the matter remained unresolved -- was it enough to make the sweet life something they can achieve. I think to the very end, Jack didn't know whether Ennis would have turned around regarding this point. And in some ways, I don't think we do either. There are hints that seem to tell us that perhaps Ennis would have made the change... But it is not definitive.
For Jack, this was perhaps the crucial point. To the very end, I don't think he knew whether or not Ennis would go as far as change, after almost 20 years...
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But, I don't think that Randall had anything to say when it comes to Jack's love for Ennis and I am sure that Jack would've showed up on November too.
I feel the same way as far as the love is concerned. As for the November thing, I have to admit that I am unsure...
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I feel the same way as far as the love is concerned. As for the November thing, I have to admit that I am unsure...
Do you mean that maybe Jack's love was so worn out that he wouldn't appear in November? That things would have changed so much inside him that then it would be Ennis who was praying for "the sweet life"?... ???
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Do you mean that maybe Jack's love was so worn out that he wouldn't appear in November? That things would have changed so much inside him that then it would be Ennis who was praying for "the sweet life"?... ???
I sometimes think that he would not show to make a statement to Ennis. I think some of us have discussed it somewhere that perhaps he meant to test or even prod Ennis -- by removing himself, perhaps Jack was trying to push Ennis into some form of action.
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Yes,we have talked about this before,more or less directly...Maybe it would be a push on Jack's side to make Ennis put himself "into action"; I also believe that he was already a little fed up with the situation and that,maybe because of this,he was playing his last cards on the game.But I wouldn't say so sure that he wasn't going to appear if that meant a real goodbye to Ennis due to a love's wear out.
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Yes,we have talked about this before,more or less directly...Maybe it would be a push on Jack's side to make Ennis put himself "into action"; I also believe that he was already a little fed up with the situation and that,maybe because of this,he was playing his last cards on the game.But I wouldn't say so sure that he wasn't going to appear if that meant a real goodbye to Ennis due to a love's wear out.
Perhaps he was looking into whether he could indeed move one without Ennis. This does not necessarily mean that Jack has stopped loving Ennis, as we have noted in previous discussions. Also as some of us have noted before, there is the possibility that Jack no longer wished to cause Ennis such internal conflict and pain. To set someone free is sometimes (perversely) the surest expression of love.
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Perhaps he was looking into whether he could indeed move one without Ennis. This does not necessarily mean that Jack has stopped loving Ennis, as we have noted in previous discussions. Also as some of us have noted before, there is the possibility that Jack no longer wished to cause Ennis such internal conflict and pain. To set someone free is sometimes (perversely) the surest expression of love.
As Sting's song says:-"If you love somebody,let them free"...Yes,I have understood what you meant,and I guess how great would be Jack's internal struggle.But I'm not so sure still that he wouldn't appear on November,even if it had been to give the last chance to Ennis,or,who knows?,to say goodbye for a while.
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As Sting's song says:-"If you love somebody,let them free"...Yes,I have understood what you meant,and I guess how great would be Jack's internal struggle.But I'm not so sure still that he wouldn't appear on November,even if it had been to give the last chance to Ennis,or,who knows?,to say goodbye for a while.
Precisely, I think we don't see this struggle as much as we see Ennis's internal conflict. It would not be true to form to see Jack brood, I guess -- although we can read a lot in his parting look at the end of the Last Confrontation...
As for November, yes, we really don't know -- ultimately -- what he would do. It could go either way, even though I somehow feel that he wouldn't. Does this reflect a degree of pessimism on my part?
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Precisely, I think we don't see this struggle as much as we see Ennis's internal conflict. It would not be true to form to see Jack brood, I guess -- although we can read a lot in his parting look at the end of the Last Confrontation...
As for November, yes, we really don't know -- ultimately -- what he would do. It could go either way, even though I somehow feel that he wouldn't. Does this reflect a degree of pessimism on my part?
No,it doesn't; in any case,it'd reflect some realism. Sometimes,I have thought if maybe both of them were living more from the beautiful memories of the time in BBM than from the reality of their relationship and what they could get from it...Maybe this is also too pessimist,but also kind of realist,no?.
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No,it doesn't; in any case,it'd reflect some realism. Sometimes,I have thought if maybe both of them were living more from the beautiful memories of the time in BBM than from the reality of their relationship and what they could get from it...Maybe this is also too pessimist,but also kind of realist,no?.
I think they pretty much survived from the store of memories from Brokeback. The sceenplay seems to make this explicit when (in the scene inside jack's closet) it comments on the shirts as being all that remains of the power and magic of their time in the Mountain.
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I think they pretty much survived from the store of memories from Brokeback. The sceenplay seems to make this explicit when (in the scene inside jack's closet) it comments on the shirts as being all that remains of the power and magic of their time in the Mountain.
Exactly.I think they were living like in a dream; that one of their memories from BBM.These were stronger even than their reality and sometimes they mixed them in their minds and souls.
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Exactly.I think they were living like in a dream; that one of their memories from BBM.These were stronger even than their reality and sometimes they mixed them in their minds and souls.
This is so sad, don't you think? :\'( But most probably the truth! :\'(
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This is so sad, don't you think? :\'( But most probably the truth! :\'(
Yes,probably...Sometimes we live reality just like we were living in our memories a fact that happenned many years ago.The relationship or whatever this fact can be,is living in our minds somewhat overvalued and we tend to pass it to our daily life of nowadays.Sad,of course... :-\\
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Yes,probably...Sometimes we live reality just like we were living in our memories a fact that happenned many years ago.The relationship or whatever this fact can be,is living in our minds somewhat overvalued and we tend to pass it to our daily life of nowadays.Sad,of course... :-\\
I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...
OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is... :i
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Exactly.I think they were living like in a dream; that one of their memories from BBM.These were stronger even than their reality and sometimes they mixed them in their minds and souls.
A long dream, certainly! And a long awakening it was -- a long awakening into night.
This harks back to the thread where we discuss the Buddhist flavor we sense in the movie. And dreams and dreaming is at the heart of this...
In a way, the Last Confrontation and Ennis's final admission of inadequacy can be taken as a rude form of awakening... His part admission of the power of Jack and BBM over him can be taken as some form of coming to terms...
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I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...
OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is... :i
A bit OT, but what you say here is so TRUE...
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I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...
OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is... :i
Yes,you're a little OT ( ^^) ) but you're right.And both Ennis and Jack wanted to live in a kind of surreal,or idyllic world,that was theirs,the world of BBM. <^(
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A long dream, certainly! And a long awakening it was -- a long awakening into night.
This harks back to the thread where we discuss the Buddhist flavor we sense in the movie. And dreams and dreaming is at the heart of this...
In a way, the Last Confrontation and Ennis's final admission of inadequacy can be taken as a rude form of awakening... His part admission of the power of Jack and BBM over him can be taken as some form of coming to terms...
Exactly¡ But maybe wasn't Jack having several sudden awakenings of this dream they have forged?.I mean,every time he received a "no" from Ennis,was like a hard awakening or a dream turned into a nightmare.Maybe,however,the LC was the rudest awakening they must have; but also-or because of this...-to be face to face with reality and with the need of finding a solution for a "charm" that was lasting too much and that too often crashed with the hardness of their real life.
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I tend to think that I am also living in the surreal world of BBM... like Jack and Ennis had in their RL. BBM became a part of me in the most profound way. I live it and breathe it every day...
OK, I am OT now, but it stroked me when I realized how true it is... :i
It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you. :\'(
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Exactly¡ But maybe wasn't Jack having several sudden awakenings of this dream they have forged?.I mean,every time he received a "no" from Ennis,was like a hard awakening or a dream turned into a nightmare.Maybe,however,the LC was the rudest awakening they must have; but also-or because of this...-to be face to face with reality and with the need of finding a solution for a "charm" that was lasting too much and that too often crashed with the hardness of their real life.
I think Jack is, as you said, experienced when it comes to the several occurances of this rude awakening of his dream turned into a nightmare. As it is said in the short story, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation in Motel Siesta, "you owe me at least a weekend after shooting me down in flames." I am paraphrasing a bit since I don't have the short story with me at the moment. Even in the movie, without the words, Jack was heartbroken by the river, not only for the dream that was shattered by Ennis' refusal, but also for the pain that he felt, looking at Ennis as he retold the trauma of his nine-year-old self witnessing a hate crime.
I think Jack is almost complacent, accustomed to being rejected by the time of the final confrontation. He felt angry at the short leash and was yanking at it. To his surprise, Ennis felt apart. We never heard nothing more after "It's because of you that I am like this." But I can just imagine Jack saying the same thing, and that silently, in his heart, he probably said to himself, while hugging the collapsed Ennis, that, "Ain't that the truth. It is because of YOU that I am like this." "Dame you, Ennis."
As it was said, in the short story, nothing changed, nothing settled. Let be. Let be.
The two lived on the surreal memories of that summer on Brokeback Mountain; they made each other that way.
Jack could never quit Ennis; Ennis loved no other but Jack.
Whether they knew it or admit it or not, they are stuck with each other.
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Exactly¡ But maybe wasn't Jack having several sudden awakenings of this dream they have forged?.I mean,every time he received a "no" from Ennis,was like a hard awakening or a dream turned into a nightmare.Maybe,however,the LC was the rudest awakening they must have; but also-or because of this...-to be face to face with reality and with the need of finding a solution for a "charm" that was lasting too much and that too often crashed with the hardness of their real life.
Well, one can think of all pain and passion as illusion. And I suspwect that at the very end of their relationship, he did sort of reach a kind of satori or awakening. As to the earlier moments, I am not sure. Perhaps he saw through the screen of human frailty and recognize the impermanence of it all. But to be sure, I think he definitely was "there" at the very end.
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It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you. :\'(
Welcome so_y2000 ! :)
And it is also true that so much of their hopes and expectations find their root in the initial experience that changed them both. It is a testament to the power of that experience that it sustained them for more than 20 years...
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Well, one can think of all pain and passion as illusion. And I suspwect that at the very end of their relationship, he did sort of reach a kind of satori or awakening. As to the earlier moments, I am not sure. Perhaps he saw through the screen of human frailty and recognize the impermanence of it all. But to be sure, I think he definitely was "there" at the very end.
Hmm... :s) Thomas, you are dragging what I wrote about the Buddhist concept of illusions in the "so many lies..." thread into this discussion.
I don't think the idea applies in this case, because, if you recall, from the short story, at the end of the final confrontation, nothing was settled, and nothing changed. Jack simply let be. It's not satori, and certainly not awakening to enlightening realization that all pleasure and pain, all passion and hatred, are but illusions that fade with the years like leaves and flowers with the seasons.
I think your idea of Jack achieving satori is a bit far fetched. Just my two cents worth.
If anything, Jack was in pain as he watched Ennis driving off, not unlike the end of the summer, as he drove off, watching Ennis diminishing in the rear view mirror.
He was gone for four years after that summer. He was gone forever after that final confrontation.
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It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you. :\'(
That's true - they probably tried everyday to renew the special feeling they once had on Brokeback ... but without each other it was a hitting the head against the wall. :-\\
I loved your last words - "incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the worlds but you" ...
If I may add - ... and the strings in me and the society won't let me do that, open myself to you completely, open myself to the sweetest life with you and that's the only thing that I truly want! :\'( Poor Ennis! :ghug:
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I think Jack is, as you said, experienced when it comes to the several occurances of this rude awakening of his dream turned into a nightmare. As it is said in the short story, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation in Motel Siesta, "you owe me at least a weekend after shooting me down in flames." I am paraphrasing a bit since I don't have the short story with me at the moment. Even in the movie, without the words, Jack was heartbroken by the river, not only for the dream that was shattered by Ennis' refusal, but also for the pain that he felt, looking at Ennis as he retold the trauma of his nine-year-old self witnessing a hate crime.
I think Jack is almost complacent, accustomed to being rejected by the time of the final confrontation. He felt angry at the short leash and was yanking at it. To his surprise, Ennis felt apart. We never heard nothing more after "It's because of you that I am like this." But I can just imagine Jack saying the same thing, and that silently, in his heart, he probably said to himself, while hugging the collapsed Ennis, that, "Ain't that the truth. It is because of YOU that I am like this." "Dame you, Ennis."
As it was said, in the short story, nothing changed, nothing settled. Let be. Let be.
The two lived on the surreal memories of that summer on Brokeback Mountain; they made each other that way.
Jack could never quit Ennis; Ennis loved no other but Jack.
Whether they knew it or admit it or not, they are stuck with each other.
:\'( :\'( :\'(
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Hmm... :s) Thomas, you are dragging what I wrote about the Buddhist concept of illusions in the "so many lies..." thread into this discussion.
I don't think the idea applies in this case, because, if you recall, from the short story, at the end of the final confrontation, nothing was settled, and nothing changed. Jack simply let be. It's not satori, and certainly not awakening to enlightening realization that all pleasure and pain, all passion and hatred, are but illusions that fade with the years like leaves and flowers with the seasons.
I think your idea of Jack achieving satori is a bit far fetched. Just my two cents worth.
If anything, Jack was in pain as he watched Ennis driving off, not unlike the end of the summer, as he drove off, watching Ennis diminishing in the rear view mirror.
He was gone for four years after that summer. He was gone forever after that final confrontation.
Yes, I couldn't help bringing a bit of it in this context. ;)
I think that for me, the element of satori in the Last Confrontation is more obvious is the ss: "Let be, let be." One may or may not read this in Jack's final look at the departing Ennis in the movie, but whether or not we see it there, the ss does point to a final realization on Jack's part that things are meant to be. Rather than fighting it, the final realization implicitly brings a measure of peace and consolation that is at the very heart of Jack's valedictory in the ss.
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Yes, I couldn't help bringing a bit of it in this context. ;)
I think that for me, the element of satori in the Last Confrontation is more obvious is the ss: "Let be, let be." One may or may not read this in Jack's final look at the departing Ennis in the movie, but whether or not we see it there, the ss does point to a final realization on Jack's part that things are meant to be. Rather than fighting it, the final realization implicitly brings a measure of peace and consolation that is at the very heart of Jack's valedictory in the ss.
I guess I took the narrower Buddhist definition of satori, but I see wikipedia has a less narrow definition akin to epiphany, where satori does not necessarily lead to enlightenment, or nirvana, but simply awareness or understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
Satori (悟り?) (Chinese: 悟; pinyin: wù; Korean 오) is a Japanese Buddhist term for "enlightenment." The word literally means "understanding." "Satori" translates as a flash of sudden awareness, or individual enlightenment, and while satori is from the Zen Buddhist tradition, enlightenment can be simultaneously considered "the first step" or embarkation toward nirvana.
Satori is typically juxtaposed with a related term known as kensho, which translates as "seeing one's nature." Kensho experiences tend to be briefer glimpses, while satori is considered to be a deeper spiritual experience. Satori is as well an intuitive experience and has been described as being similar to awakening one day with an additional pair of arms, and only later learning how to use them.
I thought "Let be, let be." was Jack's philosophy with Ennis from the beginning, even at the dozy embrace, when Jack realized Ennis' homophobia keeps him from hugging face-to-face. Instead of confronting this, Jack let be, and accepted Ennis, fears and all.
Is there peace and consolation on Jack's face at the end of the final confrontation as Ennis drove off?
:s) I guess you must see something that I don't.
However you dice it, the final confrontation was Ang Lee's master piece, to give more weight to the red letter post card in the scene after the diner.
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I guess I took the narrower Buddhist definition of satori, but I see wikipedia has a less narrow definition akin to epiphany, where satori does not necessarily lead to enlightenment, or nirvana, but simply awareness or understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
I thought "Let be, let be." was Jack's philosophy with Ennis from the beginning, even at the dozy embrace, when Jack realized Ennis' homophobia keeps him from hugging face-to-face. Instead of confronting this, Jack let be, and accepted Ennis, fears and all.
Is there peace and consolation on Jack's face at the end of the final confrontation as Ennis drove off?
:s) I guess you must see something that I don't.
However you dice it, the final confrontation was Ang Lee's master piece, to give more weight to the red letter post card in the scene after the diner.
Satori is best translated as "realization", although in many schools, it is the mark leading to enlightenment or Buddhahood.
I personally wouldn't call it peace and consolation. As I mentioned in one of the older threads, it has an element of resignation. It is a sort of coming to terms with reality, and the potential to move on.
Yes, the Last Confrontation (together with the DE) is -- to me -- his masterpiece.
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I sometimes think that he would not show to make a statement to Ennis. I think some of us have discussed it somewhere that perhaps he meant to test or even prod Ennis -- by removing himself, perhaps Jack was trying to push Ennis into some form of action.
For me, juxtaposing the memory of the "perfect moment of artless, charmed happiness", and the look of absolute faithful love in Jack's eyes over the face of the older embittered and deeply unhappy Jack's eyes was done for a purpose. You're supposed to see all the pain and resentment in Jack's soul over Ennis "leash" and his refusal to be happy. I've read "Something New"....and I agree with that author. Jack either would've stopped the trips at one point to stop his pain or to make a point.
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For me, juxtaposing the memory of the "perfect moment of artless, charmed happiness", and the look of absolute faithful love in Jack's eyes over the face of the older embittered and deeply unhappy Jack's eyes was done for a purpose. You're supposed to see all the pain and resentment in Jack's soul over Ennis "leash" and his refusal to be happy. I've read "Something New"....and I agree with that author. Jack either would've stopped the trips at one point to stop his pain or to make a point.
That's an interesting point. I am not sure I agree with "something new".
It's difficult for me to see Jack stopping his trips with Ennis, as infrequent as they were. I can see him going to the cabin with Randall, heading off to Mexico, and finding other ways to get his fix for those magical moments of charmed happiness. However, there is something with Ennis that no one else can provide. Ennis, of all the men in Jack's life, from his rodeo riding in the past, to those men in dark alleys, is unique in his singular devotion, unwavering love, and almost obsessive response to Jack...this thing with no reins.
For someone like Jack, who is jaded enough with the freckle faithless transient nature of male sex, the unique devotion of Ennis is a prize like no others, a great gem of beauty that he would do anything to possess, a treasure of countless value that he would gladly trade the wealth of the Newsomes for that sweet dream of working a cow and calf operation together.
What tortures Jack, more than anything else, is this knowledge, looking back those years, from that perfect moment of charmed happiness to that painful moment of "nothing settled, nothing changed", that the sweet life is forever out of grasp, that he will always be looking at Ennis as he rides off or drives off, without him.
The irony of Ennis' singular devotion to him and the impossible sweet dream is what is seen on his face, bitter and brokenhearted.
He can't quit Ennis because what Ennis offers is exactly what he craves.
He can't stand not having the sweet life, missing Ennis so much in all 'em months away.
All he can do, is to find escape in his whiskey, and comfort in another man's arms, temporarily.
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For me, juxtaposing the memory of the "perfect moment of artless, charmed happiness", and the look of absolute faithful love in Jack's eyes over the face of the older embittered and deeply unhappy Jack's eyes was done for a purpose. You're supposed to see all the pain and resentment in Jack's soul over Ennis "leash" and his refusal to be happy. I've read "Something New"....and I agree with that author. Jack either would've stopped the trips at one point to stop his pain or to make a point.
Certainly, it was done on purpose. And yes, together with resignation, there is also a finality and even pain in the look of the older Jack. It's so hard to look at this and contrast it with the beautiful look at the DE.
But do you think that there is a look of resolve in the older Jack's final glance? Personaally, I can't seem to be quite sure...
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It's difficult for me to see Jack stopping his trips with Ennis, as infrequent as they were.
and
For someone like Jack, who is jaded enough with the freckle faithless transient nature of male sex, the unique devotion of Ennis is a prize like no others,
and
But do you think that there is a look of resolve in the older Jack's final glance? Personaally, I can't seem to be quite sure...
We know that Jack had told his parents that Randall and he were coming up to Lighting Flat. So it seems that Jack wants faithful companionship. He wants to settle down...he doesn't want to prize Ennis' devotion like some harem-master. So I don't ever see Jack as a "faithless transient" whore (which I may be incorrectly inferring from your statement). He's not sleeping with anything that moves. He needs something that Ennis wouldn't give him. So he slept around some to fulfill a need that not even Lureen was filling anymore. He wanted Ennis and was going to settle for Randall in the end. And if he really did move to LF with Randall, and he started the less-than-sweet-life with Randall, I don't think he'd be making those trips to Ennis. He'd be in a committed relationship. It's one thing for a gay man to be in a love-less marriage and cheat on his wife. It's another (IMO) to be in a committed gay relationship and cheat on his partner. But I'm not an expert on the gay lifestyle but the folks I do know are in deeply committed relationships.
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Quote from lancecowboy
It's difficult for me to see Jack stopping his trips with Ennis, as infrequent as they were.
and
Quote from lancecowboy
For someone like Jack, who is jaded enough with the freckle faithless transient nature of male sex, the unique devotion of Ennis is a prize like no others,
and
Quote from tpe
But do you think that there is a look of resolve in the older Jack's final glance? Personaally, I can't seem to be quite sure...
We know that Jack had told his parents that Randall and he were coming up to Lighting Flat. So it seems that Jack wants faithful companionship. He wants to settle down...he doesn't want to prize Ennis' devotion like some harem-master. So I don't ever see Jack as a "faithless transient" whore (which I may be incorrectly inferring from your statement).
I didn't imply Jack was the faithless transient whore. His relationship with Ennis, and his desire for the sweet life is proof that he was not transient. My implication was the Mexican encounters with prostitutes in dark alleys, his riding more than bulls in the rodeo circuits. Even Randall, I doubt that would amount to much. He might have told the old man when the stud duck needled him, asking where is this Ennis that you kept talking, knowing full well that Jack didn't bring anyone. The old man has a sore spot in Jack's psyche, and we need to take that into account in the dialog. In any case, Jack WANTS permanence with Ennis, but cannot find it, anywhere.
He's not sleeping with anything that moves. He needs something that Ennis wouldn't give him. So he slept around some to fulfill a need that not even Lureen was filling anymore. He wanted Ennis and was going to settle for Randall in the end. And if he really did move to LF with Randall, and he started the less-than-sweet-life with Randall, I don't think he'd be making those trips to Ennis. He'd be in a committed relationship.
Agreed.
It's one thing for a gay man to be in a love-less marriage and cheat on his wife. It's another (IMO) to be in a committed gay relationship and cheat on his partner. But I'm not an expert on the gay lifestyle but the folks I do know are in deeply committed relationships.
Gay lifestyle in 'em early days in rural Wyoming is non-existent. You get whatever whenever you can. The lucky ones find the one person they can fall in love with, and stay together against all odds. Even Earl and Rich were so lucky.
As for cheating in a committed relationship, I am of the opinion that it matters not if it was a gay man in a loveless marriage or a gay man a in committed gay relationship, both Ennis and Jack were cheating on their wives. If they had been honest to begin with, they'd have less tragedy, and perhaps a happier ending. As was already mentioned in other threads here, Alma and Loreen were victims in this story, just as much as Ennis and Jack were victims of the homophobia that kept them apart.
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As for cheating in a committed relationship, I am of the opinion that it matters not if it was a gay man in a loveless marriage or a gay man a in committed gay relationship, both Ennis and Jack were cheating on their wives. If they had been honest to begin with, they'd have less tragedy, and perhaps a happier ending. As was already mentioned in other threads here, Alma and Loreen were victims in this story, just as much as Ennis and Jack were victims of the homophobia that kept them apart.
Yeah, we can see it now, but back then - it wasn't the honesty - it was a stream in which they were supposed to be - marriage, kids and all. When they fell into the merciless hands of the society, they were only supposed to follow. Didn't know better.
The moment they separated in 1963 ( :\'( ), it was over. Others took over their lives. They had that sweet moment when Ennis was bleeding and Jack showed all his affection, to fall in each other's arms and to admit the truth. When Ennis failed there, they lost their best opportunity.
And maybe - the more they yearned for each other, the less they could be honest to each other and to society. It was a deadly fear, especially for Ennis.
I know... I am OT! :P
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Yeah, we can see it now, but back then - it wasn't the honesty - it was a stream in which they were supposed to be - marriage, kids and all. When they fell into the merciless hands of the society, they were only supposed to follow. Didn't know better.
The moment they separated in 1963 ( :\'( ), it was over. Others took over their lives. They had that sweet moment when Ennis was bleeding and Jack showed all his affection, to fall in each other's arms and to admit the truth. When Ennis failed there, they lost their best opportunity.
And maybe - the more they yearned for each other, the less they could be honest to each other and to society. It was a deadly fear, especially for Ennis.
I know... I am OT! :P
Not really off topic. It's because of Jack, meeting that summer of '63, that Ennis couldn't follow the stream already set in motion, marry Alma, having kids. He may never be pawing the white out of the moon, but he'd be happy in his own way. It was because of Jack, knowing real happiness, that made his marriage fail.
Even after parting in '63, even knowing, figuring that he never should've let Jack outta his sight, he never tried to contact Jack for 'em four long years. It was Jack, who looked him up, and drove 14 hours to Riverton, that all 'em feelings with no rein came roaring back down 'em stairs two, three at a time.
Yes, it was because of Jack, that Ennis was like that...not that he was complaining those sixteen years, until Jack started saying, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and move on to someplace warm, like Mexico, with Jose.
For Ennis, who knew and loved only one man, what Jack did in that one sentence, was collapse his whole world, just as he collapsed, into Jack's arms.
It foreshadows the time when the postcard, collapsed his whole world for real.
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I didn't imply Jack was the faithless transient whore. His relationship with Ennis, and his desire for the sweet life is proof that he was not transient. My implication was the Mexican encounters with prostitutes in dark alleys, his riding more than bulls in the rodeo circuits. Even Randall, I doubt that would amount to much. He might have told the old man when the stud duck needled him, asking where is this Ennis that you kept talking, knowing full well that Jack didn't bring anyone. The old man has a sore spot in Jack's psyche, and we need to take that into account in the dialog. In any case, Jack WANTS permanence with Ennis, but cannot find it, anywhere.
See I'm a strict interpretationist. We see him start something with Randall. He mentions Randall (by pretending it's his wife) to Ennis. So clearly, Randall's an ongoing thing. In a cut scene, it's Randall that ultimately outs Jack and gets him killed. And that he changed from promises of Ennis to promises of Randall to John Twist all spell out that Jack was trying to carve some kind of happiness for his future. It wouldn't be the perfect dream with Ennis, but something. I have to fanwank a whole lot to add in Randall as a lie told to John Twist to shut John Twist up about Ennis when there's so much more in the screenplay that shows Randall had more prominence than an occasional lay for convenience's sake.
For Ennis, who knew and loved only one man, what Jack did in that one sentence, was collapse his whole world, just as he collapsed, into Jack's arms.
It foreshadows the time when the postcard, collapsed his whole world for real.
Beautiful
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It's true, that happens when we live an experience that changes us. Jack and Ennis not only lived remembering that first time they knew in brokeback, but also recalling or trying to reenact that passion on their everyday life without each other, failing miserably. I believe Jack would have gone in November, no doubt, seeing how he embraced Ennis after he said "I wish" knowing after all that no matter the number of rejections from Ennis part, that phrase "I can't stand this anymore jack" demonstrates Ennis own suffering and struggles. It's because of you Jack that I'm like this... In love... and incapable of letting my heart open to anyone in the world but you. :\'(
I really agree w/ this. There was no way that Jack (IMO) could ever "quit" Ennis. Look how he can't bear to see Ennis in this pain. No matter how upset Jack is, he goes to console Ennis. Ennis then breaks down when he realizes "I can't stand this anymore, Jack". Between this admission & the break w/ Cassie at the Diner, I think Ennis was coming around. Being away from Jack was ripping his heart apart.
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The two lived on the surreal memories of that summer on Brokeback Mountain; they made each other that way.
Jack could never quit Ennis; Ennis loved no other but Jack.
Whether they knew it or admit it or not, they are stuck with each other.
I agree; however, I think that they had many good yrs. of "fishing" together, even if it was not on Brokeback.
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See I'm a strict interpretationist. We see him start something with Randall. He mentions Randall (by pretending it's his wife) to Ennis. So clearly, Randall's an ongoing thing. In a cut scene, it's Randall that ultimately outs Jack and gets him killed. And that he changed from promises of Ennis to promises of Randall to John Twist all spell out that Jack was trying to carve some kind of happiness for his future. It wouldn't be the perfect dream with Ennis, but something. I have to fanwank a whole lot to add in Randall as a lie told to John Twist to shut Jack up about Ennis when there's so much more in the screenplay that shows Randall had more prominence than an occasional lay for convenience's sake.
I am convinced. I guess I didn't want to believe Jack would change, would quit Ennis, but I see your argument, and perhaps, as much as Jack hated to quit Ennis, he was finally, in that bitter disappointed look at the end of the final confrontation, ready to try something else, something new. I would like to think, even though Jack felt the need to explore other avenues, he would still be there for Ennis in November, and furthermore, even take up the sweet life if Ennis had changed and ready to move along with his proposal. I am at a loss to know for sure if Jack would still change his mind, away from Randall and propose to Ennis again, if things work well in November. We'd never know for sure. If only...
I think it is this ambiguity, this uncertainty, this lack of clear resolution of Jack's state of mind, state of heart, towards Ennis, which is part of the PBS that affects us so much. We yearn to think, to hope that Jack was still there for Ennis, and Ennis was ready to be there for Jack. Despite the death which separates them, their love was still alive. We, through Ennis, live their love through the dreams when Jack come, to feel the eternal bond that cannot be broken. To me, that is the essence of Heath's final scene, in front of the closet, with the two shirts, "I swear." It is hope and faith and love eternal personified.
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Not really off topic. It's because of Jack, meeting that summer of '63, that Ennis couldn't follow the stream already set in motion, marry Alma, having kids. He may never be pawing the white out of the moon, but he'd be happy in his own way. It was because of Jack, knowing real happiness, that made his marriage fail.
Even after parting in '63, even knowing, figuring that he never should've let Jack outta his sight, he never tried to contact Jack for 'em four long years. It was Jack, who looked him up, and drove 14 hours to Riverton, that all 'em feelings with no rein came roaring back down 'em stairs two, three at a time.
Yes, it was because of Jack, that Ennis was like that...not that he was complaining those sixteen years, until Jack started saying, "I wish I knew how to quit you" and move on to someplace warm, like Mexico, with Jose.
For Ennis, who knew and loved only one man, what Jack did in that one sentence, was collapse his whole world, just as he collapsed, into Jack's arms.
It foreshadows the time when the postcard, collapsed his whole world for real.
As always, Andrew, I think you are "on target".
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I think it is this ambiguity, this uncertainty, this lack of clear resolution of Jack's state of mind, state of heart, towards Ennis, which is part of the PBS that affects us so much. We yearn to think, to hope that Jack was still there for Ennis, and Ennis was ready to be there for Jack. Despite the death which separates them, their love was still alive. We, through Ennis, live their love through the dreams when Jack come, to feel the eternal bond that cannot be broken. To me, that is the essence of Heath's final scene, in front of the closet, with the two shirts, "I swear." It is hope and faith and love eternal personified.
WOW...This says it all!
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Thanks, atalley, as always, for your kind generous words. :^^)
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I'm about to fall asleep...catch y'all later. :gnight:
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We know that Jack had told his parents that Randall and he were coming up to Lighting Flat. So it seems that Jack wants faithful companionship. He wants to settle down...he doesn't want to prize Ennis' devotion like some harem-master. So I don't ever see Jack as a "faithless transient" whore (which I may be incorrectly inferring from your statement). He's not sleeping with anything that moves. He needs something that Ennis wouldn't give him. So he slept around some to fulfill a need that not even Lureen was filling anymore. He wanted Ennis and was going to settle for Randall in the end. And if he really did move to LF with Randall, and he started the less-than-sweet-life with Randall, I don't think he'd be making those trips to Ennis. He'd be in a committed relationship. It's one thing for a gay man to be in a love-less marriage and cheat on his wife. It's another (IMO) to be in a committed gay relationship and cheat on his partner. But I'm not an expert on the gay lifestyle but the folks I do know are in deeply committed relationships.
I also feel that at the core of Jack's anguish is his desire to be in a totally committed relationship with Ennis. Everything else he does on the side was a reflection of his overall restlessness and frustration in not being able to pin Ennis down on the sweet life. So, Ennis's words "It's because of you..." can also be said by Jack -- and in some sense, I do think that he also recognized this.
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I also feel that at the core of Jack's anguish is his desire to be in a totally committed relationship with Ennis. Everything else he does on the side was a reflection of his overall restlessness and frustration in not being able to pin Ennis down on the sweet life. So, Ennis's words "It's because of you..." can also be said by Jack -- and in some sense, I do think that he also recognized this.
That's the way I see it too. The line could have been used to express how both of them felt. It just happened that Ennis blurted it out. What he meant by it was his frustration at himself, in that he knew he truly loved Jack but felt trapped and powerless to do what he wanted and be with his love. It's like saying "It's because of you, Jack, that I feel this way, all this anguish and being miserable all these years, is all because I love you and I can't be with you all the time."
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That's the way I see it too. The line could have been used to express how both of them felt. It just happened that Ennis blurted it out. What he meant by it was his frustration at himself, in that he knew he truly loved Jack but felt trapped and powerless to do what he wanted and be with his love. It's like saying "It's because of you, Jack, that I feel this way, all this anguish and being miserable all these years, is all because I love you and I can't be with you all the time."
I really like the way you summed up the LC scene.
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That's the way I see it too. The line could have been used to express how both of them felt. It just happened that Ennis blurted it out. What he meant by it was his frustration at himself, in that he knew he truly loved Jack but felt trapped and powerless to do what he wanted and be with his love. It's like saying "It's because of you, Jack, that I feel this way, all this anguish and being miserable all these years, is all because I love you and I can't be with you all the time."
I think that a large part of why Jack didn't keep on fighting Ennis after the latter had said this memorable phrase was that Jack understood EXACTLY how Ennis was feeling. He probably thought initially that he was the only one who felt this way -- waiting patiently for nearly 20 years for Ennis to yield, and NOT seeing his wish for a sweet life fulfilled in the process. Did Ennis realize this at that very moment? Probably not, although he probably did later -- after Jack had died.
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It can also be compared to Jack saying "I wish I could quit you." Of course he didn't mean he wished he didn't love Ennis, he said it out of frustration because of how painful the circumstances they were in were, in that they were trapped, pretending to be something they weren't, living their lives apart and miserable, living only for the few weeks each year they could be together. And remember how after Jack says "I wish I could I could quit you," Ennis says while sobbing "Well why don't you?" to which Jack replies with holding Ennis in his arms as he cried and comforting him. That whole conversation they have the last time they see each other was the culmination of almost twenty years of longing and frusration, wishing they could be together all the time, but forced to be apart most of the time, forced into lives that made them lonely and sad. It's like Jack says at the end, that now all they have is Brokeback Mountain, I believe that is symbolic of being together, rather than the actual place itself. All they had in this life were those few times a year they could be together, and be happy and free and be themselves. They lived only for those times, that is what kept them going all those years.
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I do think that "I wish I knew how to quit you" is a pendant to "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this..." Each statement reveals a lot about each of them in a way that directly relaes to the other.
As mentioned by a number of people in various posts, "I wish I knew how to quit you" implies that jack didn't know how to quit Ennis. Likewise, in "It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this...", Ennis pretty much admits that it is Jack and Jack alone who defines him as a person.
A very peculiar way of expressing such sentiments, I admit. But deep frustration got in the way of more positive admissions.