Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[Patriot1]

I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.

Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.

[Patriot1]

I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.

Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.

And then there is the matter of the formula. If the baby was on formula the hospital would provide it. Jack wouldn't be bringing it in. Especially 120 cans of formula.

[ksxks]

I did not like the fireworks scene...i cannot explain why, it just made me uncomfortable!

I didn't like the girls crying.  Those girls were sure crybabies.  Drives you nuts.

I can understand why you or anyone wouldn't care for the scene, but I don't mind it.  Or, I should say, it's not my least favorite.  I don't like the music, and don't like the idiot bikers, but I like when Ennis beats the crap out of them, and I like that it shows, I believe, Alma kind of freaking out to see Ennis's violence like that. 

kathy

[ksxks]

Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.

That bothered me, too.  Not as much when he grabbed her arm, but when he raised his fist, and not just for a second, but for a long time.  Overtly threatening her with violence -- uncool, Ennis, uncool.

kathy

[ksxks]

Speaking of Ennis's violence, I really got uncomfortable about his *abuse* toward Alma after 4th viewing. I found it disturbing to watch in the scene when Alma confronted Ennis about fishing trip. My heart was just pounding so fast. As much as I cherish the romance between Ennis and Jack, Ennis is sexiest to me and I really feel sorry about Alma.

I think Ennis' reaction in that scene was caused by fear. It seemed to me that Ennis could never forget the memory of those old cowboys that were murdered for being gay. Seeing such a terrible sight at the tender age of nine scarred Ennis for life. That fear was what kept him from buying a ranch with Jack, and I think that when Alma outed him, it brought that memory to the surface, and Ennis was terrified. He never had a large repertoire of reactions to stress to begin with, and violence was probably the one that came easiest. I don't think that scene could have turned out any other way.   

Good way to look at it.  Of course I understand where Ennis is coming from, his responses and reactions to life.  But specifically to this scene, this would be his absolute biggest fear, that he should be found out, because then he'd be Earl, or Jack would, one.  So his violent reaction totally makes sense for the story.  Still bothers me of course, in the moments when I relate to and feel back for the women...but I don't go there too much...

kathy

[ksxks]

I wish that Ennis had not said, "Once burned" to Alma."  I thought that this was out of character.   Ennis didn't seem to blame anyone for any of his misfortunes and I found this comment particularly cruel, which I didn't find Ennis to be.  I don't remember if he says this in the story.

I didn't care for Ennis saying that, either.  It was definitely not an Ennis-type comment, not in character, or so it felt to me.  And anyway, he wasn't burned, Alma was.  Except that he has to pay child support.  But I don't imagine he has any resentment of that really.  He would know that's the right thing to do and would never consider not supporting the girls.  So what does he even mean by that comment really?

Come to think of it, when he says "once burned," he doesn't know yet that Alma knows about him and Jack.  He doesn't yet know that she knows that she was really the one that was burned.

kathy

[ksxks]

If you go to the DID ANYONE FIND IT STRANGE thread they are talking about the "once burned" to Alma scene. Everyone was saying, including me, that it was nasty of him. Then someone brought up how mean it was for Ennis to send Jack away after that long drive (something like 1,000 mi.) the day he was looking after his two daughters.  Ennis wasnt an angel, he didnt have wings like his daughters.

So true.  My predominant feeling is always "poor Ennis," but I certainly see the jerk side of him, too.  Most especially, when he says "nobody's eatin' nothing' unless you put it on the table" when Alma has to go out to work.

kathy

[ksxks]

don't like it when jack tells ennis he's got an affair with the farmer's wife, because he is obviously lying to ennis

That's a good one.  It makes me very sad that Jack felt he could lie to Ennis...

kathy

[ksxks]

Hands down my least favorite scene is the sledding scene between Alma and Ennis.  They just seem too much in love.  I wanted Ennis to be pining away after Jack.  Yeah, maybe it was included to show Ennis was missing Jack and trying to be playful with Alma, but I thought the scene was unnecessary.  It looked to me like Heath and Michelle were loving on each other instead of playing Ennis and Alma.  Just my 2 cents. 

Snap! I don't like that scene either, probably because, like you say, it just seems rather pointless :-\ (or maybe we've just been spoilt by just about every other scene being so full of meaning? )  And I don't know if it's just me, but when Ennis says "y'alright?" to Alma in that scene, he sounds likes he's forgotten to do his accent, it sounds Australian to me

Aha -- then it really does seem it was more Heath and Michelle...and he does talk about how in that scene when she hurt her leg, that was the moment he knew he wanted to be with her forever or some such...so it makes it even more Heath and Michelle.

kathy

[welshwitch]

OT, partly, because I dislike the scene too, for other reasons. It's a cliche in a movie that signally lacks cliches, I think, and unconvincing since if it's an attempt to show another side of Ennis and Alma before all the ground-down-by-work-and-kids scenes that follow it's too  brief and too much of a one-off

- BUT

why  really I dislike it is that it seems to be Heath and Miochelle - this is when, he said later, he fell in love with her, and to be honest I'd rather see him falling in love with Jack; he does it more convincingly. Now how weird is that?

[ksxks]

I don't care whether they YEE  HAW in Texas or not...I love this scene.  Jack's so cute, and it DOES make Ennis smile.  He pushes Jack down when he says "Tired of  your dumbass missing"  Then when Jack tells him they have to get a move on to avoid the Game & Fish people, Ennis gives Jack a little slap, but you can't see where it lands...his arm...his butt? 

Donna

I agree that Jack was just being silly -- he likes to try to make Ennis laugh.  But anyway, oh boy -- going to have to watch again, the little shoving interchange.  If I have this right in my memory:  first Jack shoves Ennis, when he says yee-haw.  Then Ennis shoves Jack, knocks him to his butt.  Jack rights himself, says the thing about the Game & Fish people...then Ennis gives Jack a love-tap?  Oh boy.  (And remember that other love-tap, when Jack's hauling the log up from the river when they're setting up the new camp.)  But this is supposed to be about stuff we don't like!

kathy

[ksxks]

I don't like all those scenes in the room over the laundrette, becaue evey day i spend half my waking hours on here my house gets to look more and more like that apartment.

 

kathy

[ksxks]

Its gotta be the Biker/fairground scene. I don't like obscene use of words,and i just feel that the scene was pointless and not well done, They should of took it out and put in more of Ennis and Jack together,IMO.

I can see why you don't like the scene, cause it's not exactly pleasant to watch, but I don't agree that it's pointless. I think it illustrates very well the sort of person Ennis was, and how he struggled to cope with the world around him. He's trying to be a regular family guy,taking his wife and kids out for a special occasion, even though he hates social events like that, and we see the side of him that wants to do the right thing,all the people around the bikers are obviously offended and intimidated by the bikers, but Ennis is the only one with the guts to tell them to pack it in. Junior and Jenny are too small to really understand what the bikers are saying, so when Ennis tells them to keep it down cause of his girls, it's not just about them, he's speaking for everyone there. We also see how Ennis will only tolerate so much,trying to keep control of himself, but with the violent side of him simmering away quietly until it finally becomes to much, and he explodes in a violent rage. Also, if you look closesly, it's the biker's comment about Ennis not giving it to his wife after the kids were born, that is the trigger that sets him off, you see Alma look nervously at him too, it's clear that she knows the biker's hit a nerve.The biker's comment probably made Ennis feel that paranoia he has about people suspecting, cause his and Alma's sex life clearly isn't particularly satisfying for either of them so, in a way, that scene is about Ennis and Jack, even though Jack isn't there,or even mentioned. In fact, just about every non-Ennis and Jack scene is about the two of them on some level, cause their whole lives are defined by their relationship, and the hardships they endure because of it. Of course, I wish there had been more scenes of Ennis and Jack together (the whole movie could be Ennis and Jack together, and it still wouldn't be enough for me! ), but as someone summed it up perfectly in another thread, by not seeing enough Ennis and Jack on screen, we get a real sense of what it was like for them, to never have enough time with each other

This is beautiful, CrimsonSky.  It hones right in on exactly what Ennis was going through all the time in his life of trying to be a regular guy.  I had actually forgotten the biker's comment about not giving it to his wife, because it was a few times before I even really heard what was said there.  So that makes it even more integral to the story -- that after that comment was when Ennis exploded.  He thinks everyone can tell about him...

kathy

[ksxks]

I don't like the scene where Jack is demonstrating a machine to some farmers and two of them in the office with Lureen say 'didn't that piss-ant used to ride the bulls?' and 'he used to try' I just hate that. Poor Jack. But then again it's scenes like that and the one with the clown that make me love Ennis all the more. HE appreciated Jack, and you can see that in a life where his even his sons teacher doesn't like him, he is a haven for Jack when they are together.

BTW don't exactly know what a piss-ant is. I doubt it's a drunk ant! Maybe a streak of p*** whatever it is JACK IS NOT ONE! 

Oh I want to cry for poor Jack.  This is another thing I hadn't exactly focused on, all the rejection Jack experiences, people not liking him, etc.  And a half-rate rodeoer, too.  Not even the "best salesman we got" -- he's the only salesman they've got.  But Ennis loves him.  Oh my heart...

Maybe this is why Jack was open to having a thing with Randall.  Who, by the way, I do not dislike personally as so many do -- not sure why, I just like him okay.  They managed to pick up on each other's inclinations, and this wasn't easy to do at that time...and then, Jack was starting to get weary, losing hope of having more with Ennis.

kathy

[ksxks]

That's certainly a fresh take on Ol' Randall.  We really don't know enough about him to get a feel for who he is and where he is coming from.  The thing that just turned me off to Randall was his meet-Jack- an- hour ago- and-then-ask-for-sex routine.  He almost treated Jack like some hooker IMO.   I don't know, it just seemed so cheesy to me.  But, I'll try to cut Randall some slack.  Maybe he does have his own Ennis out there. 

Randall didn't just up and ask for sex, as I see it.  He was taking a big chance, in those days, trying to hint, to be sure Jack wouldn't beat the shit out of him or out him or something.  He said it very tastefully, I thought, about the cabin.  Saying it just a little more meaningfully than just some straight guy would to another guy, hoping he was getting his meaning across.  I could see his fear of rejection, too.  And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head.  Is this something I should do?

kathy

[ksxks]

I think the fireworks scene also is put in to show Ennis' care and love for his babies.  He wants to protect them, including Alma, from the crude language of the bikers.  It also shows his quick temper.  I think it helps develope the character of Ennis. Also, at this point in the story, Ennis still takes his family out for some entertainment.  Later, after the reunion scene with Jack, he doesn't do that anymore.  When Alma wants to go to the church picnic, he refuses.   Perhaps that's his guilt working within him.  He denies himself any social contacts, outside of his family, because he can't openly have any kind of contact with Jack. ??

     The scene I don't care for is when Ennis drops the girls off at the store while Alma is working.  Again, it shows Ennis's ability to get Alma to do what he wants, but I can see no other purpose for that scene.  I could easily have done without it.

I understood that that scene with Ennis dropping the girls off was part of a fuller scene that was cut, that Jack was waiting for him.  But maybe that was just a rumor.  Also, it clearly shows Mr. Grocer is kind of sweet on Alma.

I didn't love the way he stared her down and she had to back down and give in to him...but that was how it was with them, and is a whole other topic.

kathy

[ksxks]

You make some good points, Red.  I just remember somebody on this forum making the conjecture that this scene went with the photo of Jack and Ennis inside the truck.  I can't remember the thread, or I'd look it up, but there are so many threads now, it would take forever.
    The point you make about the girls' age, though, is a really good one that shows that scene was always meant to be before the reunion.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I just like to look at different possibilities. That's what makes this forum so intriguing.  I have had my eyes opened to so many varying possibiliities -- all of which just enrich the movie for me.

I love all this conjecturing.  Okay, now, someone find the Jack-and-Ennis-in-truck pic please!  The one you've been talking about.  The only one such deleted scene I know of with Ennis and Jack in a truck is when they're being driven down the mountain after the summer, when Ennis closes his eyes.

Then, I heard of but never saw, a scene of the night before they get trucked up the mountain, supposedly up all night in Jack's truck talking?  (Seems kind of unlikely.)

I hate those continuity slip-ups!  I had never noticed the peanut jars on the floor discontinuity.  Now I won't be able to not see it.  I hate when that happens.   

kathy

[ksxks]

I agree, I also feel for Jack when Ennis is cruel to him down by the lake... and Jack tells him to "go to hell". Something about it feels so.... uncomfortable.

Very sad, Ennis's meanness.  We might know where it's coming from, but come on, Ennis, you're with the only person who really knows you -- don't take it out on him.  But unfortunately, that's what tends to happen, taking it out on the closest person to you.

Is this the same scene when Jack is talking about Lureen punching in numbers and Ennis says, "That's some real high-class entertainment there."  That was just a plain mean remark for no reason.

I guess we can be glad these two heroes aren't really heroes, but flawed men, just like everyone is.  It would have been dumb if they were like goody-goody and nary a harsh word from either of them or between them.

It did bother me, though, that too much bickering was shown in their later meetings, and except for the sleeping in the tent shot, no lovemaking or even hugs or anything.

kathy

[ksxks]

I actually found them both to be completely believable. They both seemed tentative - cautious in their approach to the other. Jack seemed to be savouring having Ennis there. Maybe I'm weird, but if I have a soft piece of velvet in my hands I nearly always rub it across my lower face and mouth because I like the feel of it, I just thought Jack was doing the same. Just pressing his lips onto something he liked. The way if you are holding a baby you may put your face in their hair and smell them. I thought it showed that he cherished Ennis and didn't just see him sexually. Ennis  was doing the same, feeling Jacks face, hair and body.  Just my opinion... 

That's how I see it, too, Rosie.  Both of them, just as you said.  And besides, it was awkward at first, and meant to be.  (Who knows, if we saw all the takes of this scene, which we would like better or not...but my god, all things considered, Heath and Jake gave us absolutely beautiful and credible characterizations.)

Anyway, right after this, when they go top/bottom and Jack lowers himself onto Ennis and Ennis lifts his head to kiss Jack...well, no problem there.  Beautiful...

kathy

[ksxks]

Of course, I love this movie as is.. but one scene.. line, actually I hate and wish it was done differently was when Jack says...
"sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.'
To me it just sounded so fake and wooden, like he was reading it off the script. To me it had no emotion, none of Jake's wonderful facial expressions...
 

I can see how you feel this, CC.  But I love how he says it.  This is a "depressed" person saying this, and I think even saying it kind of flat like he does, I think there's a lot of feeling in it.

kathy

[ksxks]

Rosie, Monicita - I understand what you mean.

I get the impression from many posts here (certainly it's that way for me) that maybe "dislike" is a misleading description.  Sometimes it's about the scenes that make us the most uncomfortable or hurt us because we see how badly Jack and/or Ennis are hurting.  A part of you wishes that never had to happen.  Some may actually dislike a scene for one reason or another but for a lot of us it's that we're unhappy because of the way it leaves us feeling.  Which is part of great film making. 

You're right -- we're all talking about (1) scenes that make us uncomfortable or break our hearts or some such and (2) scenes we didn't think perfectly done or that didn't add to the film as a whole.  Seems it's fine to talk about both of these here, yes?

kathy

[ksxks]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning -- very interesting, what we like and don't like and why.  I've said some other things I don't care for, or do, in other posts.  What I was doing up til late last night.   

But I haven't said my least favorite scene.  This isn't a least favorite because of some deep hurt or something it makes me feel -- I like those scenes, though they hurt.  It's a least favorite just because it annoys me.

It's the same as Lamusica's -- Lureen in bed with the new baby and her parents come in.  It's not because Mr. Newsome is condescending to Jack, though, that I don't like it.  It's just the annoying factor.  I don't like Lureen's parents and never want to look at them too much (except when Jack finally shoots Mr. Stud Duck down at Thanksgiving).  I don't like the tacky little room or their house (though I like the decor in the Thanksgiving scene -- very 70's mid-century modern).  And Lureen there all frilly and tucked into bed in the daytime, why?

Although there is a deleted scene that shows Jack sitting on the bed with Lureen and the baby -- I wonder what that was showing.  Maybe then the parents came in and Stud Duck moved him out of the way.

kathy

[Patriot1]

And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head.  Is this something I should do?

kathy

Not only that Kathy, for the first time in his life JACK was being pursued instead of Jack doing the pursuing. Someone was finding Jack interesting enough to come on to him. I am sure his mind was racing over that one.

[ksxks]

And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head.  Is this something I should do?

kathy

Not only that Kathy, for the first time in his life JACK was being pursued instead of Jack doing the pursuing. Someone was finding Jack interesting enough to come on to him. I am sure his mind was racing over that one.

So true, P1.  A new thing for him.  Though if life then, and his life, were just slightly different, I don't know how Jack wouldn't have them lined up at his door, hot babe that he was.

kathy

[BBBOY]

And I felt Jack's pain in that scene -- no response to Randall right away, but it looked like a million thoughts and feelings were going on in his head.  Is this something I should do?

kathy

Not only that Kathy, for the first time in his life JACK was being pursued instead of Jack doing the pursuing. Someone was finding Jack interesting enough to come on to him. I am sure his mind was racing over that one.

So true, P1.  A new thing for him.  Though if life then, and his life, were just slightly different, I don't know how Jack wouldn't have them lined up at his door, hot babe that he was.

kathy

Perhaps he never took the time to let it happen, or at least understand that it was happening.

[welshwitch]

Well, Lureen pursued him pretty successfully. Perhaps after that, like Ennis, Jack thought "Once burned".

[Patriot1]

Well, Lureen pursued him pretty successfully. Perhaps after that, like Ennis, Jack thought "Once burned".

I don't think she pursued him as much as they pursued each other. He kept looking at her and thinking, pretty, rich dad, no more rodeoing and she was thinking ah, a way to get back at my dad.

But anyway, I was talking about being pursued by another man. Randall was the first and only one to pursue Jack.

[lamusica]

I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.

Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.

And then there is the matter of the formula. If the baby was on formula the hospital would provide it. Jack wouldn't be bringing it in. Especially 120 cans of formula.

That explains the formula question I've always wondered about!  Thanks for that observation, Patriot.  Around the part of the country where I live, even in the 60's, maternity rooms in hospitals were make to look like bedrooms, so the look of the room never alerted me to the fact that the scene occurs at home rather than in a hospital.  But, the formula question was always a puzzler.  The other peculiar thing was the age of the baby Lurren is holding.  That child is 2-3 months old, not a newborn, but she is still in bed?!!!!  If this was the first time her parents saw Bobby ( and I think it was because of the comments about who he looks like and the formula they brought), why was he not a newborn?

[jesseanne21]

I really hate the hospital room scene when jack's father-on-law treats him like a slave.

Not really important to the discussion lamusica, but it wasn't in the hospital. They were at Jack's house. The way you can tell is the hallway. It is much too narrow and that 90 degree turn would not allow a bed to be taken from the room. And besides, the bed has a "bookcase" headboard which is not hospital issue.

And then there is the matter of the formula. If the baby was on formula the hospital would provide it. Jack wouldn't be bringing it in. Especially 120 cans of formula.

That explains the formula question I've always wondered about!  Thanks for that observation, Patriot.  Around the part of the country where I live, even in the 60's, maternity rooms in hospitals were make to look like bedrooms, so the look of the room never alerted me to the fact that the scene occurs at home rather than in a hospital.  But, the formula question was always a puzzler.  The other peculiar thing was the age of the baby Lurren is holding.  That child is 2-3 months old, not a newborn, but she is still in bed?!!!!  If this was the first time her parents saw Bobby ( and I think it was because of the comments about who he looks like and the formula they brought), why was he not a newborn?

As a mother of three children born in the US...the hospital MIGHT provide a few starter cans of formula, but the parents would buy more later.  Also, American mothers in the 1950's/1960's were encouraged to feed babies formula (I always thought it was a Madison Avenue ploy to make more money).  Depending on the brand, 120 cans of formula would be about 3-6 months worth.

As for the baby not being a newborn (I noticed that, too), I think Ang Lee was dealing with a limited budget and just got a baby (only a woman would notice that child was not a newborn).   

[welshwitch]

Not all women either - I didn't, because I don't do babies. Hated this scene as far as the implications wer concerned, the awful LD taking over and doing that "He's just like me" stuff and Jack getting shut out by the Newsome clan. I think this is where he starts thinking about Ennis again - yes, before you shout, i know there's no reason to think so, but it seems to me just the point at which it becomes evident that they're never going to accept him.