Topic: What is the scene you dislike the most? (spoiler)

[smartestsonia]

I always ask myself the question: Why this movie touched my heart as no book, no story, no movie... NOTHING ever had!! WHY?

Why it hurts so much?

I tend to think the main reason is Jack's immense love for Ennis. No one has ever showed so deep, so passionate, so forgiving and unselfish love like Jack's was. He accepted everything, he went through an ordeal during 20 years to meet the needs of Ennis, and to fulfil only a scrap of his enormous needs for Ennis's love. Pushed away, rejected so many times, humiliated by others too (Father in law and his buyers), he always remains so proud, so focused, that becomes even more attractive to a viewer.

And when he's gone, I think it's over, but it's not. Two Brokeback mountain's shirts come to a life and shatter my heart in even smaller pieces than before.

Finally, at the end of the movie Ennis takes Jack's pain into his chest, and his face reflects every inch of their unfulfilled longings.  :\'(

There r so many answers as to why it hurts loreen...I have tried to figure it..we feel their love so much and nobody around them understood their love....Whole 20 long long years Jack kept longing for Ennis...He had so many dreams but they were shattered as Ennis was too scared to be with Jack all the time and he had so many fears deep rooted to his childhood experiences…

I had told in other posts that death cant take away the love of Jack from Ennis…the shirts r a symbol of pure love that they share...When Ennis held that shirt he felt Jack’s presence…thats what hurts the most...Jack is still alive in his heart…he is not gone…its not over...it never will be…

We cry so much as we want them to be together…atleast if not in their 20 years then atleast in the end…we want it…we need it…it’s the only thing that matters but it does not happen...that hits us like a rock with so much force and we r left wounded…

We r left with this deep hurt and then when the movie ends we don’t know what to do about the hurt….I try my best to make sense out of it…Initially its just me crying and getting emotional and later when it sinks in I really pray and wish that Ennis did find meaning in his life…Even if Jack was not in front of him physically he was filled with his love...It hurts deeply when u want to acknowledge that love to someone and he is not in front of u..But I really think that Ennis and Jack’s love is something that generations will witness and love…they r not alone anymore…we r there for them and understand them and r for each other to get through this pain…

[vedrana]

There r so many answers as to why it hurts loreen...I have tried to figure it..we feel their love so much and nobody around them understood their love....Whole 20 long long years Jack kept longing for Ennis...He had so many dreams but they were shattered as Ennis was too scared to be with Jack all the time and he had so many fears deep rooted to his childhood experiences…

I had told in other posts that death cant take away the love of Jack from Ennis…the shirts r a symbol of pure love that they share...When Ennis held that shirt he felt Jack’s presence…thats what hurts the most...Jack is still alive in his heart…he is not gone…its not over...it never will be…

We cry so much as we want them to be together…atleast if not in their 20 years then atleast in the end…we want it…we need it…it’s the only thing that matters but it does not happen...that hits us like a rock with so much force and we r left wounded…

We r left with this deep hurt and then when the movie ends we don’t know what to do about the hurt….I try my best to make sense out of it…Initially its just me crying and getting emotional and later when it sinks in I really pray and wish that Ennis did find meaning in his life…Even if Jack was not in front of him physically he was filled with his love...It hurts deeply when u want to acknowledge that love to someone and he is not in front of u..But I really think that Ennis and Jack’s love is something that generations will witness and love…they r not alone anymore…we r there for them and understand them and r for each other to get through this pain…

I was thinking about the shirts myself too. I think that two hugging shirts with Ennis's blood on the sleeves were the final strike for our hearts. As if Jack's love was surprisingly materialised.

We all see clearly during the movie how great Jack's love is, but just at the end of the movie, we found out the most touching evidence, living, material, carefully hidden from all the world. Even in the very moment when punched by Ennis, he took his shirt as something he can Cherish and love. He preserve a memory of Ennis's PUNCH as memento of their deep intimacy! Could anyone even imagine the power of that love?? 

After Jack's death I felt sorry and empty, but when these two shirts come out, I was completely devastated. Jack's shirt was embracing Ennis's in the same manner that Jack was always embracing and consoling Ennis. Later Ennis put them reverse - he knew that he should've embraced Jack and love him openly years ago, when they still had a chance. And now he expressed it through the shirts. Well... that HURTS!!!  :\'( A lot!

[tpe]

SOme of your exchanges reminded me of this: the 2 instances when John Twist denies Jack's request to be buried in BBM -- very unpleasant.

[vedrana]

I think that word "unpleasant" is maybe even not enough! In my opinion not to follow the last wish is extremely disrespectful, but John Twist was treating Jack like that all his life. I think that parents who don't manage to develop the love and respect towards their children NO MATTER WHAT, are moral prodigy! Their behavior is a lifetime punishment for their kids. That's the reason I felt for Jack even more  :\'(. On the other hand, he had a dear mum who obviously adored him, and that makes me less uncomfortable about his childhood!

[LuvJackNasty]

I wish they'd granted him his wish to have his ashes scattered but it bothers me more that even in death he isn't whole  But I think that Ennis having the shirts is just as good- IMO, I think he only figured he'd get back to that place where he was happiest never anticipating that Ennis would find the shirts. And when Ennis did he brought Jack home with him, so in that regard one wish was granted.

[atalley]

LJN...I like that.  I never quite looked at it that way.  THANKS!

[smartestsonia]

I was thinking about the shirts myself too. I think that two hugging shirts with Ennis's blood on the sleeves were the final strike for our hearts. As if Jack's love was surprisingly materialised.

We all see clearly during the movie how great Jack's love is, but just at the end of the movie, we found out the most touching evidence, living, material, carefully hidden from all the world. Even in the very moment when punched by Ennis, he took his shirt as something he can Cherish and love. He preserve a memory of Ennis's PUNCH as memento of their deep intimacy! Could anyone even imagine the power of that love?? 

After Jack's death I felt sorry and empty, but when these two shirts come out, I was completely devastated. Jack's shirt was embracing Ennis's in the same manner that Jack was always embracing and consoling Ennis. Later Ennis put them reverse - he knew that he should've embraced Jack and love him openly years ago, when they still had a chance. And now he expressed it through the shirts. Well... that HURTS!!!  :\'( A lot!

I completely agree with ya…I loved the way u mentioned about the punch as a memento of their deep intimacy…
When Ennis hugged the shirts he difinitely felt Jacks’s love as he treasured a shirt of Ennis…it was a token of his love and of a memory shared with Ennis..Even if it was a fight he felt close to Ennis and Ennis was around him..That was enough for Jack to keep it as a memory. Every moment shared wih Ennis no matteer what the situation was , was dam precious to Jack..thats what hit Ennis when he saw the shirts..he actually must have thought that Jack must have hugged this shirt so many times and Ennis hugged it to feel Jack’s presence...

Ennis was looking out for a smell of Jack’s body or a feeling of his touch…what he got was a memory of BBM shared by both and the shirt were an undying illustration of their love...It hurts and literally shatters me…I think Ennis wanted to say so much if not through words then through his  gestures..but Jack is not around..what is left is the precious memories and a feeling of pure love which cant be explained through words…This is what ennis had in the end and with that he will live the rest of his life..He will live for that love..The hardest thing to ever do but Ithink that Ennis will do it…

[vedrana]

I wish they'd granted him his wish to have his ashes scattered but it bothers me more that even in death he isn't whole  But I think that Ennis having the shirts is just as good- IMO, I think he only figured he'd get back to that place where he was happiest never anticipating that Ennis would find the shirts. And when Ennis did he brought Jack home with him, so in that regard one wish was granted.

   

This makes things a little easier!

 :\'(

I said "a little"!.....

[vedrana]

Oh, yes!

I watched the deleted scene (it's about a second or so) when Ennis is crying after he found the shirts. Oh, how that hurts! It burns my soul all the night long. I am completely out of myself. :\'(

This morning I read the news about Michelle W. who said that the time only make things harder as she misses Heath more and more. I really feel sorry for her. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Don't mind me saying this, but I was always thinking of Heath's death as if he could've been saved if his friends and family reacted firmly when they saw his life is tearing apart. What makes it worse is the fact that he was not just anybody, but highly loved, adored and appreciated actor!! And yet, no one to take serious steps to pull him out of his inner hell! I hope this question is not cruel, but I can imagine that some of them should feel guilty!  Soooo sad!  :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Oh, yes!

I watched the deleted scene (it's about a second or so) when Ennis is crying after he found the shirts. Oh, how that hurts! It burns my soul all the night long. I am completely out of myself. :\'(

This morning I read the news about Michelle W. who said that the time only make things harder as she misses Heath more and more. I really feel sorry for her. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Don't mind me saying this, but I was always thinking of Heath's death as if he could've been saved if his friends and family reacted firmly when they saw his life is tearing apart. What makes it worse is the fact that he was not just anybody, but highly loved, adored and appreciated actor!! And yet, no one to take serious steps to pull him out of his inner hell! I hope this question is not cruel, but I can imagine that some of them should feel guilty!  Soooo sad!  :\'(

I swear Loreen I thought the same...Ill tell u something..the month heath died (in Jan).. I had seen a pic of his in a magazine which was clicked either end of December or start of January..In that pic he had a little long hair..his face was red,he looked alone ..he had not slept well..he looked as if he was in depression and lost..He needed him desperately...I felt so bad seeing that pic..it literally showed that he was miserable...The worst part was that the magazine put that pic and said something sarcastic like he should get a haircut....the Media can be very cruel at times..

There is no doubt that he is highly loved and missed by all  :\'(

[vedrana]

Thanks for agreeing with me Sonia!

I thought that my thinking is a bit extreme, but you noticed the very same problem.

I also highly resent a person (I will not say her name) who refused to tell all the details about his last days and give a proper closure to his family, only because she's scared to be prosecuted herself. It makes me so so sad and bitter! I treat my friends a little different than that, so it's unimaginable for me that NO ONE REACTED!!! They all knew how sad and devastated Heath was after Michelle and Matilda left...

So talented, so young, so dear....

OMG, I don't know what is killing me more right now  - Brokeback or Heath!?!


But my heart is surely b r o k e n!!!

[smartestsonia]

Thanks for agreeing with me Sonia!

I thought that my thinking is a bit extreme, but you noticed the very same problem.

I also highly resent a person (I will not say her name) who refused to tell all the details about his last days and give a proper closure to his family, only because she's scared to be prosecuted herself. It makes me so so sad and bitter! I treat my friends a little different than that, so it's unimaginable for me that NO ONE REACTED!!! They all knew how sad and devastated Heath was after Michelle and Matilda left...

So talented, so young, so dear....

OMG, I don't know what is killing me more right now  - Brokeback or Heath!?!


But my heart is surely b r o k e n!!!

Thanks Loreen ..u can call me Cleo..
You thoughts r not at all extreme..they r appropriate to the situation..

I think I know which person u r talking about and she really never spoke about anything...She kept quite to let people forget about it...As a person I am very expressive and  my friends are the most imporatnt people to me apart from family...I think his closest people did mourn alot for him and will always miss him..They would have definitely felt gulity too..its very natural.... I think this tragedy is too huge for Michelle and my heart goes out to Matilda who will grow without here dad..God, it hurts me to think that
I think BBM kills me and it kills me even more as Heath is not there :\'( :\'(

[vedrana]

Dear Cleo  ,

I feel the same! Can not comfort you, but I'd be glad to share your sorrow!   

When I read Michelle's words, and remember little Matilda Rose sooo look like Heath, I took their sadness as my own!

She sounded also so lonely in this interview about her coping with Heath's death and I hope that she'll get much more support that Heath had!

One thing more: Heath was not Ennis, he wore his wound openly, everyone saw it!! How come no one recognized it?? Oh God, it's so late now! As well it was late for Jack in BBM!!

Rest in peace little darling! :\'(  Both of you!  :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Thankyou Loreen
I think we can share our joys and sorrows…As u said, Matilda looks so much like Heath..Heath is still alive in her...He lives in her and he is her guardian angel…I think it was obvious that Heath was really going through a hard time during his last days...That pic that I told u about shouted with this evidence.…I know its too late now and we will always miss him...We love him so very much..Michelle must be so broken and hollow..I hope her closed ones r with ther throughout....She needs all the love that she can get…

“Heath, u came for a short while on Earth and u gave us so much..BBM is your gift to us..Thankyou for giving us Ennis.Thankyou for being so wonderful…You mean too much to us”

When I watch the final scene of BBM I feel so vulnerable..I just wished so many things differently..but when it hits me that Jack is gone, I just feel that Ennis is ofcourse devastated and hollow....I just want to hug him...He is left with all the memories and I really feel that he will be strong and live as Jack would want him to be so..God,, the toughest thing to do  :\'( :\'(

[vedrana]

Thankyou Loreen
I think we can share our joys and sorrows…As u said, Matilda looks so much like Heath..Heath is still alive in her...He lives in her and he is her guardian angel…I think it was obvious that Heath was really going through a hard time during his last days...That pic that I told u about shouted with this evidence.…I know its too late now and we will always miss him...We love him so very much..Michelle must be so broken and hollow..I hope her closed ones r with ther throughout....She needs all the love that she can get…

“Heath, u came for a short while on Earth and u gave us so much..BBM is your gift to us..Thankyou for giving us Ennis.Thankyou for being so wonderful…You mean too much to us”

When I watch the final scene of BBM I feel so vulnerable..I just wished so many things differently..but when it hits me that Jack is gone, I just feel that Ennis is ofcourse devastated and hollow....I just want to hug him...He is left with all the memories and I really feel that he will be strong and live as Jack would want him to be so..God,, the toughest thing to do  :\'( :\'(

Dear Cleo  ,

I already spoke about it: eg. "Splendor in the grass" with N. Wood and Warren B., "Ghost" with D. Moore and P. Swayze, "Gone with the wind" with C. Gable and Vi. Leigh ..... and many more. All this movies have moved my soul and make me feel sad and down for few days. Afterwards I'd just forgotten about it, just erased the feeling from me.

But Brokeback mountain...... I am  :\'( for more than a month now!! And still asking myself WHY?? Why this movie? Why so long and so strong? Sure, I know  - one of the reasons is surely Heath, but I don't believe that's all.

Where these two characters managed to touch me? How deep this story intrude my (usually not so deep) emotions?? Why I contemplate about them more than about my own personal problems?? Why so long and so painful agony??? These characters are EVEN NOT REAL!!! FGS!!!

So many questions, but the answer is only pain, unbearable, profound pain. The answer is neglecting myself and i become Jack .. or Ennis... or Jack again...or..... 

Do I need to find some help? Can anyone help me at all (except of you Brokies who do understand) ?

For how long I have to stand it (cause I can not fix it) ?

HEEEEELP!   

[smartestsonia]

Dear Loreen,
Hold on dear ....you will be fine...BBM shatters us mainly as we r still belonging to a time where there is no justice...Ennis and Jack became victims of this real world...All Ennis and Jack truly wanted in life was each other..thats it...but Ennis due to his childhood trauma, his fears of abandonment from the society and worst to be killed was so dam huge that he could not allow himself to live with Jack…Jack on the other hand was willing to take that risk…Now Jack’s dream was not fulfilled..20 long years of regret in Jacks heart haunts us….It is so horrible to see that he needed to goto Mexico…Ennis on the other hand did not live with his children and in the end during the final confrontaion when Jack tells him that he wished he could quit him makes Ennis fall apart as he felt that all that truly mattered to him is gone….he felt that due to Jack he always followed his heart and is left with nothing..Jack’s love was a strong force that Ennis could not be without…So at the final confronation we see 2 men who r filled with pain and the main reason is that they could not be together...Even if Ennis wanted Jack he feared too much and Jack could not make his dream a reality…we see so much disappointment, so much regret…even though we see the pain in the final confrontation immediately we r shown the Dozy Embrace which a glimpse of pure love and a magical moment shared by them…Jack was silent and mesmerized and Ennis was filled with love....Then we see the present… Ennis wanted to make up and meet Jack later after the final confrontation but it was too late as Jack passed away…So he dint get a last chance to hold him., hug and kiss him and to ask for forvginess…The end puts us into pieces….We so badly want things to be different but trust me, I really feel that Ennis did live for long after Jack passéd away as Ennis wanted to live to keep Jack’s love alive….That is what touches us so much that it literally chokes us…We feel so shattered as we so baldy want them to be together…Everything else seems useless in front of them…We see this injustice in the world so we literally  relate to Ennis and Jack’s pain to the world…I think that is why it is too real for us...we know that this height of restrictions happens so much even today and when we see that we automatically connect it with Ennis and Jack…that is why it hurts the most…Its the worst tragedy that happened with them and this film was needed to be shown...it has made a lot of difference to people irrespective of their sexual orientation...it spoke about true love that dint care for any laws made by the society...there is no other film that just spoke from its heart the way this has...It is normal to cry, to be upset and to be shaken. This film teaches us to cherish and treasure love when it is in front of us….It shows to always follow your heart before it is too late…We can learn a lot from that and use that in our own lives…Loreen, we r there for u and BBM is a part of all of us and it will always be..

[tpe]

I think that word "unpleasant" is maybe even not enough! In my opinion not to follow the last wish is extremely disrespectful, but John Twist was treating Jack like that all his life. I think that parents who don't manage to develop the love and respect towards their children NO MATTER WHAT, are moral prodigy! Their behavior is a lifetime punishment for their kids. That's the reason I felt for Jack even more  :\'(. On the other hand, he had a dear mum who obviously adored him, and that makes me less uncomfortable about his childhood!

Well, you would be surprised perhaps to know that some of our members feel that we are too harsh on jack's father -- and that he was only disappointed about Jack not keeping his promise to help out on the farm.

Personally, I feel a lot of bitterness in John Twist.  I feel that this accounts for whay I don't feel that sympathetic to him...

[vedrana]

There's one scene I've been thinking about, that makes me very uncomfortable. That is when Jack came to see Ennis, so happy, so full of expectations... Ennis just introduced him to his daughters and sent him away...

I can not understand this kind of behaviour. Someone drives 14 hours to see you, and you don't even give him a glass of water??  
I noticed Ennis's head down after Jack left, but why let him go so quickly anyway?

Was is possible to go out together with girls? To sit and to talk something, neutrally?

Also, who was in the white truck that was driving on the road? Why E&J looked at the truck so significantly?  

I know that people say that 3 things one can never hide: cough, poverty and love... maybe Ennis was afraid that his love would be so obvious???

I don't know, but I felt so much for Jack there. Even so humiliated he preserves his pride and just said: OK, see you next month! Dear Jack!

Another scene I dislike - him with a male prostitute ( )... When they went into the darkness, camera just stayed there with a Mexican music in background in order to amplify the effect of Jack's despair!  :\'( :\'( (Good job Lee!)

[tpe]

I wish they'd granted him his wish to have his ashes scattered but it bothers me more that even in death he isn't whole  But I think that Ennis having the shirts is just as good- IMO, I think he only figured he'd get back to that place where he was happiest never anticipating that Ennis would find the shirts. And when Ennis did he brought Jack home with him, so in that regard one wish was granted.

Actually, I would have felt better had Ennis gotten a portion of the ashes.  Even the shirts are not enough, IMO.

[vedrana]

Well, you would be surprised perhaps to know that some of our members feel that we are too harsh on jack's father -- and that he was only disappointed about Jack not keeping his promise to help out on the farm.

Personally, I feel a lot of bitterness in John Twist.  I feel that this accounts for whay I don't feel that sympathetic to him...

Tpe, I have to disagree with those members. 

John Twist was disgusted as he understood the sexual affinity of Jack, as he was aware that Jack looked upon a man and adored a man. His haterad was obvious where he pronounced Ennis's name. Ennis Del Maar! In his nasty way he was even making fun of Ennis when mentioned another man, Jack's neighbour who was supposed to come from Texas.

His repugnance is also obvious when he angrily spits in his cup, showing that he disrespects his son, disrespects his wishes and his unfulfilled dreams.

Anyway, Jack himself has talked during summer 1963. how his oldman never told him any secret about riding bull, nor even once go to see Jack ride! Very significant!!!

The things described in the SS about his relationship with Jack are even more despicable! (urinating on Jack  !!!)

I believe that it can not be more clear than that - John Twist never accepted Jack's softness and his character. Sure I can imagine that he was sorry cause his only son died, but not sorry enough to fulfill Jack's last wish! I deeply dislike the old man! ^^)

Love you Jack twist!

[vedrana]

Actually, I would have felt better had Ennis gotten a portion of the ashes. Even the shirts are not enough, IMO.

Hm, I never thought about it, but... well , yes! He should've gotten a portion. Something like 100%!

Although, after Jack's gone, my mind and my feelings just stop there. For me EVERYTHING IS OVER!  :\'( I see no hope for Ennis! He only knows that he's gotta stand it, nothing more! He's empty and lost. Oh, how I feel sorry for him but at the same time have a little anger towards him.. only a little...

I'm still in the very middle of PBS!

[tpe]

I understand your sentiments Loreen.  In fact, find the LF scenes with John Twist sort of repugnant -- as if we are not in the presence of Jack's father!  Mama Twist's sense of opression is very hard to watch -- the part when she holds her neck close to the end of Ennis's stay.  It is as if she is suffocating...

[tpe]

Hm, I never thought about it, but... well , yes! He should've gotten a portion. Something like 100%!

Although, after Jack's gone, my mind and my feelings just stop there. For me EVERYTHING IS OVER!  :\'( I see no hope for Ennis! He only knows that he's gotta stand it, nothing more! He's empty and lost. Oh, how I feel sorry for him but at the same time have a little anger towards him.. only a little...

I'm still in the very middle of PBS!

loreen . I am also tempted at times to feel that there is no hope left for Ennis.  I do think we get a sense of this hopelessness in the ss.  But I would like to think that the final scenes in the movie offer us some consolation of hope...

[vedrana]

Dear Cleo,
 

I know that u are, and I am very grateful that I have a place to heal my wounds. It gets easier sometimes, but mostly i am not myself anymore. I know it's wrong - a movie should not kill one, but BBM is on the right way to do that to me. I'll have to find a way to breathe, to be me again, with no Ennis& Jack in my life. I'll just have to put them in some small pocket of my heart, where they'd do no such a harm as now! I told you that I got a medical situation cause BBM, and that shows how serious this situation had become for me!

LF scenes?? What is it TPE?

[vedrana]

TPE, hope this is not unpolite - are you a guy or a girl? 

[tpe]

TPE, hope this is not unpolite - are you a guy or a girl? 

OT:  I am a guy.  (See the meeting threads for pictures.)

Back on topic: LF -- Lightning Flat.

[vedrana]

I understand your sentiments Loreen.  In fact, find the LF scenes with John Twist sort of repugnant -- as if we are not in the presence of Jack's father!  Mama Twist's sense of opression is very hard to watch -- the part when she holds her neck close to the end of Ennis's stay.  It is as if she is suffocating...

Her behavior is extremelly suppressed! And any viewer can understand that it's because John Twist! I am sure that he wasn't treating her well. She LOVED her son, but had a very narrow area to show it in front of her husband. I felt for her. She's a darling mother who lost her dear son. She seemed so empty, but as if Ennis gave her a bit of hope, a part of her son which he preserved in his soul. She took him as her soulmate. They both shared a deep and loveling memory of Jack, and they had a chance to exchange those memories.  

OT:  I am a guy.  (See the meeting threads for pictures.)

Back on topic: LF -- Lightning Flat.

I will. Thanks!

[tpe]

Her behavior is extremelly suppressed! And any viewer can understand that it's because John Twist! I am sure that he wasn't treating her well. She LOVED her son, but had a very narrow area to show it in front of her husband. I felt for her. She's a darling mother who lost her dear son. She seemed so empty, but as if Ennis gave her a bit of hope, a part of her son which he preserved in his soul. She took him as her soulmate. They both shared a deep and loveling memory of Jack, and they had a chance to exchange those memories.  

Wonderful acting here!  I think her suffering made the scenes in LF even more unpleasant.  And the fact that she and Ennis couldn't express themselves fully in from of John Twist was maddening.

[vedrana]

Wonderful acting here!  I think her suffering made the scenes in LF even more unpleasant.  And the fact that she and Ennis couldn't express themselves fully in from of John Twist was maddening.

You're so right here! 

The LF scene was highly unpleasant! But I believe that (as this phenomena is known in medicine) Ennis and Jack's Ma will establish a special relationship in the future! They'll nurture each other's soul as they both share the same thing - deep love and unfortunate lost of the essence of their lives - Jack!

[vedrana]

Another thing I've noticed: when Jack's Ma takes shirts from Ennis's hands to put it in the paper bag, she deliberately gently touched his hand, and then slow down her motions to absorb the feeling. She was touching Jack's hand through Ennis's! It is so touching! I feel for her so deeply!  :\'(