Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[lancecowboy]

Great discussion here. Not much of import to add, except the meaning of “love” can take many, many, forms and expressions, just like “gay”. What one person may think of as love might not even register to another. Maybe this is one reason Ennis & Jack were able to stick it out so long, they had somewhat similar internal ideas of what “love” meant and they could feel that “vibration” from each other almost from the moment they first shook hands. Not identical for sure, but innately similar. Love at first sight, yup, we just won’t say a goddamn word about it.

Love at first sight....whether we recognize it as such or not? The same electricity shot through both Ennis and Jack when they shook hands, but only Jack recognized it while Ennis just thought it was his wrist watch wearing wrong.

oh yeah, Crying . . .

You’ all certainly know this, but I’ll repeat it - Ennis is the big tough cowboy we see cry (or at least tear up) seven times in the movie (though only once in the SS).

  Seven times, eh? Let's see...it's obviously easier counting from the end, 1. in front of the closet, 2. mentioning love to Junior, 3. in Jack's closet, 4, in the kitchen, 5. in the Diner,  6.  talking about Earl and Rich, and 7. in the alley. Did I get 'em all right?

LC: Ennis the iconic cowboy, yup - to which I’ll add - Ennis the LACONIC cowboy, huh? 

  Jackster. It's poignant that the iconic cowboy is only laconic, and all 'em tearing up moments are tears of deep emotions. Cowboys don't crying but they sure have strong feelings. Perhaps the stronger the cowboy physically, the stronger the feelings emotionally, eh? 

[jackster]

Seven times, eh? Let's see...it's obviously easier counting from the end, 1. in front of the closet, 2. mentioning love to Junior, 3. in Jack's closet, 4, in the kitchen, 5. in the Diner,  6.  talking about Earl and Rich, and 7. in the alley. Did I get 'em all right?

Well LC we may have more than seven here. Going beginning to end here's my list:
1. alley
2. reunion campfire (Earl+Rich)
3. divorce scene
4. final confrontation
5. diner after Cassie (a maybe)
6. Jack's closet/Twist house (I make as one long event)
7. Jack I swear.

I didn't catch the Junior scene, I'll check it later tonight.

I'd sure agree w/ya on the cowboy stuff, and the handshake - Ennis coulda' felt it but didn't know whut it was.

[lancecowboy]

Gosh, how did I forget about the final confrontation.  Of course.

Yeah, the divorce scene, too. I guess I was just forgetting all the really unpleasant scenes. 

I count the kitchen and Jack's closet separately because the reasons for tear are different.

So the magic tearful number is nine. 

[myprivatejack]

I do believe also that Ennis was aware of his love for Jack,or at least,that what he feels for him was something deeper,greater and stronger than a mere friendship "enjoyed" with some sex.He called it "that thing",he was not willing nor able to show it with some caring and loving words,but he felt it and he knew it;if not,his life had been only a constant deny of a sweet life by Jack's side.No;the bottom line is that his whole life was an inner struggle between his feelings and his duties,what he must do according to society's rules and what he should do according to what he felt for another man.And for me,this is the main proof that he was aware of his love.
As regards to seeing him crying in the movie,I'd add another scene;after the night in the motel,when Jack is talking somehow about his feelings during these four years of separation and his wishes to see Ennis again,he says:-Swear to god, I didn't know we was goin' to get into this again.Yes, I did. I red-lined it all the way. I couldn't get here fast enough. What about you? ... Then,Ennis,only can answer:--Me? I don't know....As always,unable(or unwilling) to show too clearly what he had felt the four years in general and the hours he was waiting for Jack's arrival in particular.But I guess that his eyes are beginning to be full with tears.That's why Jack,who realises it or,at least,feels somehow Ennis reaction,says:-Old Brokeback got us good, don't it?. Just my two cents.

[jackster]

Couldn't agree more with what you say here MPJ, to me that's the foundation for much of the movie, a man's struggle with himself and his view of himself.

. . . As regards to seeing him crying in the movie, I'd add another scene; after the night in the motel, when Ennis, only can answer:- -Me? I don't know...

Real good point.  I was just saying over in loreen's thread "I shouldn't a let you outta' my sight" that the way the screenplay truncated the motel scene was unfortunate (if understandable). The boys had to try and jam a lot of emotion into this short scene whereas in the SS Annie allows them some space to really develop their intimate personal interaction here together, when they are nude, lying together in bed.
 

[rimasworld]

Couldn't agree more with what you say here MPJ, to me that's the foundation for much of the movie, a man's struggle with himself and his view of himself.
Real good point.  I was just saying over in loreen's thread "I shouldn't a let you outta' my sight" that the way the screenplay truncated the motel scene was unfortunate (if understandable). The boys had to try and jam a lot of emotion into this short scene whereas in the SS Annie allows them some space to really develop their intimate personal interaction here together, when they are nude, lying together in bed.
 

Yeah I guess in the movie Heath brought out more facial expressions and body language to the enigma that was Ennis. He *didn't say much but he got his point across* (like the quote when Cassie said that to Alma Jr.)

[myprivatejack]

Couldn't agree more with what you say here MPJ, to me that's the foundation for much of the movie, a man's struggle with himself and his view of himself.
Real good point.  I was just saying over in loreen's thread "I shouldn't a let you outta' my sight" that the way the screenplay truncated the motel scene was unfortunate (if understandable). The boys had to try and jam a lot of emotion into this short scene whereas in the SS Annie allows them some space to really develop their intimate personal interaction here together, when they are nude, lying together in bed.
 

  Jackster ¡ Yeah,I suppose that cinematographic language and,specially,moral limitations have a lot to do with this; in the SS everything is left to reader's imagination,even if the scene is described in all its natural roughness.Whereas in the movie,there're some walls one mustn't jump,in order not to surpassing censure's codes,f.e.;in this sense,both actors must show a wide range of emotions in a limited way.And bearing in mind that the Ennis of the s.s. is rather more demonstrative of his feelings than the one from the movie,I think these little tears in his eyes when he tries to remember his years without Jack,gets the place of a greater demonstration quite well.

[mimi]

Cowboys don't cry. 

Ennis was the iconic cowboy, complete different from the rodeo that was Jack.

I love the way you described jack as a rodeo - he was a rollercoaster of emotions, a glass overflowing with life, energy, and most of all love (especially for Ennis)

[myprivatejack]

I love the way you described jack as a rodeo - he was a rollercoaster of emotions, a glass overflowing with life, energy, and most of all love (especially for Ennis)

And I love the way you describe him too ¡ Yes,he was a rollercoaster,but mainly because facts made him change his first lively way of being,to make him little by little descend from the higher place he had in his youngest years.

[brandedandrew]

To me the fear Ennis felt was his love for Jack and what it meant.    It would have made him what he hated most, "queer".   The whole Earl and Rich thing was a warning Ennis gave to Jack.  Jack was making a proposition,  Ennis had no intention of going along with.  Ennis knew what queer was,  what bashing was,  what death was.  He also knew of these dangers the first night he "took" Jack,  and the second night he gave in to Jack.    He knew it all but had and loved Jack nonetheless. 

Ennis loved,  he knew love, he loved his girls, he loved Alma.  But loving Jack was counter to who he believed he was,  but he was in love, and this man was who he desired.  And Ennis was so much more with Jack than without him, he felt real love,  knew the joy and sharing of sex, and in turn Ennis feared not Jack but the what Jack represented,  because it made him in his mind what he learn to hate and fear.  Jack was a shock to Ennis's belief system, and what he grew up to believe, and this all but faded away when he was with Jack. That's what was dangerous about loving Jack, and Ennis knew it. 

Ennis could not  be drawn into an alternate universe, a life style counter to what he was taught, an abstract idea of a "sweet life" with Jack that he couldn't believe in , but kept going back to him, for twenty years, love desire is a hell of thing to fight. 

[FlwrChild]

It's so good to catch up with this thread. What a great discussion.


brandedandrew, that was beautifully put and I think such a good assessment of Ennis. 

[myprivatejack]

To me the fear Ennis felt was his love for Jack and what it meant.    It would have made him what he hated most, "queer".   The whole Earl and Rich thing was a warning Ennis gave to Jack.  Jack was making a proposition,  Ennis had no intention of going along with.  Ennis knew what queer was,  what bashing was,  what death was.  He also knew of these dangers the first night he "took" Jack,  and the second night he gave in to Jack.    He knew it all but had and loved Jack nonetheless. 

Ennis loved,  he knew love, he loved his girls, he loved Alma.  But loving Jack was counter to who he believed he was,  but he was in love, and this man was who he desired.  And Ennis was so much more with Jack than without him, he felt real love,  knew the joy and sharing of sex, and in turn Ennis feared not Jack but the what Jack represented,  because it made him in his mind what he learn to hate and fear.  Jack was a shock to Ennis's belief system, and what he grew up to believe, and this all but faded away when he was with Jack. That's what was dangerous about loving Jack, and Ennis knew it. 
Ennis could not  be drawn into an alternate universe, a life style counter to what he was taught, an abstract idea of a "sweet life" with Jack that he couldn't believe in , but kept going back to him, for twenty years, love desire is a hell of thing to fight. 

I like very much the way you have described Ennis contradictions,Andrew ¡. Yes,you're awfully right;Ennis feared what Jack represented,the idea of love between men,because this immediately converted him in what he had hated all his life.He passed half his life denying the evidence,denying that he was in love with another man;but,at the same time,he knew for sure that this is just what he needed for being happy,for,simply,LIVING.I have said formerly that Ennis  loved and hated Jack for what he made him feel and he hated himself for feeling it.Ennis=a living contradiction.

[brandedandrew]

I like very much the way you have described Ennis contradictions,Andrew ¡. Yes,you're awfully right;Ennis feared what Jack represented,the idea of love between men,because this immediately converted him in what he had hated all his life.He passed half his life denying the evidence,denying that he was in love with another man;but,at the same time,he knew for sure that this is just what he needed for being happy,for,simply,LIVING.I have said formerly that Ennis  loved and hated Jack for what he made him feel and he hated himself for feeling it.Ennis=a living contradiction.

I like what you said.  He certainly was.

[myprivatejack]

I like what you said.  He certainly was.

   ¡ Yes,he was a contradiction,but due to his inner turmoil and struggle.I have never thought,however,that he was afraid of LOVE,in capital letters.As a matter of fact,he needed love because he had only found it in his mother,but this lasted too little and,moreover,never could fight completely against the bad influence of his father.What he feared Ennis was "this kind of love",what it's not the same than love in a general sense...

[mimi]

  ¡ Yes,he was a contradiction,but due to his inner turmoil and struggle.I have never thought,however,that he was afraid of LOVE,in capital letters.As a matter of fact,he needed love because he had only found it in his mother,but this lasted too little and,moreover,never could fight completely against the bad influence of his father.What he feared Ennis was "this kind of love",what it's not the same than love in a general sense...

Very true!

Ennis wasn't incapable of love or commitment, in fact I would say that he could love a lot more than most ordinary people o his time, and even nowadays.

He adored his daughters, and did really love Alma, but it was always Jack he was meant to be with. But he forbid himself this because it scared him s**tless. He was especially horrified of the thought that he himself could love another man. This was the product of homophobic conditioning from his parents, namely his father

[myprivatejack]

Very true!

Ennis wasn't incapable of love or commitment, in fact I would say that he could love a lot more than most ordinary people o his time, and even nowadays.

He adored his daughters, and did really love Alma, but it was always Jack he was meant to be with. But he forbid himself this because it scared him s**tless. He was especially horrified of the thought that he himself could love another man. This was the product of homophobic conditioning from his parents, namely his father

Yes,that's right ¡ As almost everybody who has been lacked of love from his/her childhood,Ennis knew how to feel and give love.The problem was that the person he loved the most was somebody who,at the same,disturbed and made him hate himself the most too...Poor Ennis ¡

[mimi]

yes exactly.

poor, poor, trapped ennis. It's true - he was a man trapped and controlled by his own homophobic conditioning. Just like that "rabbit trying to squeeze through a snake hole with a coyote on its tail" 

[lancecowboy]

yes exactly.

poor, poor, trapped ennis. It's true - he was a man trapped and controlled by his own homophobic conditioning. Just like that "rabbit trying to squeeze through a snake hole with a coyote on its tail" 

Interesting imagery, but I think a more applicable description is "the horse scared of its own shadow while being chained to a wall facing the sun." More than that, the horse would be drawn to what it was chained to.

Perhaps even more appropriate would be "Ennis, the thirsty shadow-fearing horse chained to a south facing water trough".

[myprivatejack]

Interesting imagery, but I think a more applicable description is "the horse scared of its own shadow while being chained to a wall facing the sun." More than that, the horse would be drawn to what it was chained to.

Perhaps even more appropriate would be "Ennis, the thirsty shadow-fearing horse chained to a south facing water trough".

I think all of your descriptions are very accurate and sage,as they described in few words who and how Ennis was ¡  Yours,Lance,means perfectly what was Ennis inner struggle and the feeling of attraction-repulsion to who he was and to what would have been the "solution" and,at the same time,the root of all his problems.Afraid and worried of being thirsty but afraid and worried to give the step to the water trough...   

[Forever]

A combination of different reasons made me think of this thread again, and how Ennis was afraid to love, not just homophobia, loving another man, but also loving anyone in general.

Jack was the key that opened his heart, to allow him to love. Without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life not knowing love, how to love.

His relationship with Alma and Cassie were all superficial, going through the motions, in and out of bed, doing his duty.

His relationship with his children were deeper, but even with them, he did not know how to love or to show them his love.

As already mentioned here and else where, Ennis had difficulty with love, and all through life, love was a stranger to him, except with Jack. It's probably why he never loved anyone else, why he would never consider himself gay. Loving another man was as alien to him as loving another woman.

If Jack lost Ennis, he might have recovered and moved on. But Ennis losing Jack, was the end of the world.

In any case, Ennis was lucky that he at least met Jack. Many unlucky people go through life never knowing love, and never realizing what they don't have, thinking as they go to their grave, that they knew love because they were married, or had sex, or whatever. It is often the fear of love that lead us to misunderstand love, and never have it.

I'd like to know what Ennis was thinking about that night before SNIT, sitting in front of the fire, while Jack waited. What thinking process led him to decide that Jack was the one he could trust, that this one shot thing with Jack won't change his life forever? And of course, it did indeed change his life forever. How did he know it was the kind of change that he could accept, for a life time?

So many questions...and so few answers. It's what gets me, and PBS.

I spent now, check the clock, more then one hour reading these old post about fear for love and I read this one from you Lance, a beautiful piece of art, a real Gem!  Lance!

[BBMsheep]

I spent now, check the clock, more then one hour reading these old post about fear for love and I read this one from you Lance, a beautiful piece of art, a real Gem!  Lance!

Great! You have find the appropriate thread for the Fight on Brokeback! I will try to read it this week-end.

Lance's posts are so often beautiful, enlightening and true. This one makes no exception! 

[lancecowboy]

Glad y'all like it.  for kind words. I confess that once in a while I read the old posts to remind me what I learned here in this beautiful place. 

[Forever]

   Oops, FlowerChild, you were posting as I was typing.  I see your point, that orientation was an issue and I can see the theory that it was
THE issue that paralyzed Ennis.  But some part of me still says Ennis had chucked that out the door when he went to the tent the second night,
for love.  He feared being seen as gay, or being gay, but IMO his love was too great for that to be the source of paralysis.  He'd gotten past
a helluva lot when he came to kissing and loving on Jack.  No repression there.  No self-denial.  
  So have looked elsewhere.  If Ennis had come to some terms with the relationship, and he had, then that would leave, then, the other fear that
 
his love was not returned at the same level.  In "Limerance and Love", by Dr. Dorothy Gray, the issue of who loves whom more is central to
the development of love problems. Might have the title backwards-can't remember. And in the great love stories, all of them, doubt is what
causes paralysis.  Even "The Sound of Music".  "West Side Story". "Romeo and Juliet."
    I know you have seen the fear of being seen as gay as central, but, FlowerChild, go with me a little further if you can, that what applies
to those great love stories must to some degree be equally present here.  Fear of Love, itself.
is at the core of all problems.  Fear of love comes from doubt in its being returned, at fear of losing one's own identity.

I love this post so much! What an interesting point of view that Tony gave us about the core of their fight before leaving Brokeback. The main paralysis was not being seen as gay, but it was this unexpected depth of their love that caused the paralysis. The fear of Ennis was to be less loved by Jack and that's what provoked his rage and the fight! 

[Forever]

Thank you, Tony, for asking a really good question, yet again. And  LJN for your clear-sighted observation of Ennis and Jack. Discovering the two shirts for Ennis was monumental to Ennis for two reasons, IMO. You pointed out the one reason, that Ennis did not realize how much he was loved by Jack until that moment, and how faithful was Jack's love for him. I think the second reason why discovering the two shirts made a change in Ennis was the fact that he understood that Jack's Ma KNEW, and ACCEPTED them. For the first time in his life, Ennis felt accepted by someone who is not Jack, who has no reason to accept him. The combination of the two emotions, of being loved, and of being accepted, broke down the walls that kept him isolated for so long. Finally, Ennis understood that he was WORTHY of love and acceptance. All those years when he was hiding behind that fortress, he thought he was unworthy of being loved, of being accepted, as Adam Sutton pointed out in his book, and in his interview, that he hated himself for the feelings that society taught us were wrong. When he found those shirts, he realized, he FELT the love that Jack had preserved even after death, that Jack's Ma gave him as a gift out of love for her son, and he finally believed in his heart, that he was worthy, that he was good enough to be loved, to be accepted. He stood a little taller coming down those stairs. He walked a little lighter across that kitchen floor with the shirts cradled in his arm. Ennis was a new man with confidence, self-acceptance, self-respect, compared to the man who knelt in front of Jack saying, "You are the reason I'm like this, I am nothing, I am no where."

Ennis didn't think anyone, not even Jack could seriously love him, except for fun, until Cassie told him that love is not just about fun. Then finding the shirts was the evidence that convinced him, not mentally, but emotionally.

He asked Alma Jr because he wanted to make sure his daughter will not marry without love as he did, but that she would have someone who loves her, as he did. And looking out the window, when she replied that "Kurt loves me" Ennis was thinking "Jack loved me" and regretting all those times when he didn't get to say it. There was no question that he would go to her wedding. By that time, Ennis was living Brokeback Mountain, without regrets.

Thanks Tony, LJN. I love this topic.

    O-M-G, I love this post so much!!! Lance, your analysis of Ennis's psychology is amazing!!! Poor Ennis, he thought all the time he was not worthy enough to be loved, if only Ennis had been loved during his childhood things would have turned so differently for our beautiful lovers! 

[lancecowboy]

  O-M-G, I love this post so much!!! Lance, your analysis of Ennis's psychology is amazing!!! Poor Ennis, he thought all the time he was not worthy enough to be loved, if only Ennis had been loved during his childhood things would have turned so differently for our beautiful lovers! 

Thanks again for the kind words. 

I've learned so much from this beautiful place...it is better to be loved for who you really are, than to be loved for who you pretend to be. When the chips are down, those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter.

I've learned something new from facebook friends...it's not enough to be tolerated; we deserve to be celebrated.

It is better to have loved authentically and lost, as Ennis had, than to love in pretense, and live a life of lies and falsehoods in misery. That's what I've learned from Living Brokeback. Be your authentic self, and expect to be celebrated. Don't waste time pretending, being tolerated, being treated anything less than what we all deserve. And from that comes the corollary that was a facebook friend's advice about dating: we don't date to find the One, but to find someone for whom we can BE the One. The former is a self-centered search for an ideal that may not exist. The latter is a self-less giving to the right person lucky enough to be the recipient of our very best. That's what happened between Ennis and Jack on Brokeback. They found friendship when none was expected. They gave to each other selflessly, and celebrated the other's uniqueness when others had ridiculed them. They fitted together like two gloves, one inside the other. The f#ckup rodeo extrovert and the reticent reliable ranch hand.

I am forever grateful for Brokeback Mountain and this forum. That's for sure. 

[Borealis]

So many wise words in this thread. My compliments!