Topic: Double Meanings in BBM Lines

[tpe]

"Left out in the cold" means excluded by the majority, doesn't it? As they think they would be if they were known to be what they are.

And warmth symbolises home, hearth, family, comfort, acceptance - all the things they never find together.

Their love for each other is surely " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" of their separations, but it has to stretch a long way.

You say it very well here WW.   They were without a hearth.  An allusion to the loss of Jack's dream, perhaps?

[aintfoolin]

I think Jack was saying ' Why are we always out in the middle of nowhere in the mountains where it's cold" It goes to his state of mind where both stood in the relationship. He had moved on * warmer climates* and Ennis was still stuck on the  cold mountain. Inclusion is what Jack wanted, but he wanted Ennis with him in a more inclusive enviroment. A more relaxing place. Sadly they never found that * warm place* together, in the relationship or in the context of local. In either case, Ennis refused to budge. My thought.

[ethan]

Indeed, these are all very wonderful posts.

Back in Seattle gathering as we were watching BBM on big projected wall, I noticed for the first time the brand of the tractor which Jack was doing a demo. It is "Versatile." It is not BBM lines but I thought it was interesting.

The word "versatile" is widely used among gay. I don't know if it is just a coincidence. 

[tpe]

Indeed, these are all very wonderful posts.

Back in Seattle gathering as we were watching BBM on big projected wall, I noticed for the first time the brand of the tractor which Jack was doing a demo. It is "Versatile." It is not BBM lines but I thought it was interesting.

The word "versatile" is widely used among gay. I don't know if it is just a coincidence. 

Thanks Ethan.  I had wondered about this myself.  I do have a sense that it was intentional -- it certainly brought to my mind a double meaning.

[aintfoolin]

 " That's not the point, We both oughta be in this camp"

 I'm lonely up there  at night with the sheep, your lonely down here with the camp," " Aguirre's rules are a load of crap." " We should tend the sheep and the camp TOGETHER."

   

[LuvJackNasty]

That's how I always took that line aintfoolin. Jack  just wanted some more time with Ennis.

[tpe]

That's how I always took that line aintfoolin. Jack  just wanted some more time with Ennis.

Same here.  That was exactly how I read it...

[myprivatejack]

I suppose this is the suitable thread for what I mean, or if this has been said before for someone else,if so, :Specially during their stage in BBM,Ennis is wearing light brown or white clothings mainly,while Jack wears on his part clothings in blue,as the case of the shirts.It´s as if the first was with his feet on the ground and the second more volatile,with a free spirit like the wind;maybe Ennis was from some Zodiac sign of Earth and Jack surely of Air,such as Capricorn and Aquarius.Also speaking about clothes,in the reunion secene Jack is wearing a red shirt;red is the colour of passion and love.But it can also symbolise temptation, as he meant to Ennis in order to cheat his wife in a religious or moral sense.

[tpe]

I suppose this is the suitable thread for what I mean, or if this has been said before for someone else,if so, :Specially during their stage in BBM,Ennis is wearing light brown or white clothings mainly,while Jack wears on his part clothings in blue,as the case of the shirts.It´s as if the first was with his feet on the ground and the second more volatile,with a free spirit like the wind;maybe Ennis was from some Zodiac sign of Earth and Jack surely of Air,such as Capricorn and Aquarius.Also speaking about clothes,in the reunion secene Jack is wearing a red shirt;red is the colour of passion and love.But it can also symbolise temptation, as he meant to Ennis in order to cheat his wife in a religious or moral sense.

Good that you broght this us, myprivatejack.  In fact, I think there is an old thread devoted to this particular topic, although this certainly belongs to this thread for double meanings.

I also felt that the lighter colors used for Ennis denoted a sort of innocence or lack of experience, whereas Jack's dark robes seem to bring out the mystery and shadowy elements in the character.

[myprivatejack]

I agree with you in that Ennis´white or light colour shirts can mean innocence or lack of experience,the same than lines for me symbolises a lineal,straight (in mental sense,I mean...)character.What I don´t see so clear is that dark colours in Jack´s clothes mean a misterious and shadowy character;precisely,the only thing "double",in the meaning of dark ,in him is that he lived a "double life" as straight husband and gay lover.But I think his character and way of being has less tricks than Ennis´s has ,because he expresses all his sensations and emotions in a less subtle way,he´s more open and lively and,for me,this excludes to be shadowy.I don´t know if I´ve understood it well,sorry if not...

[tpe]

I agree with you in that Ennis´white or light colour shirts can mean innocence or lack of experience,the same than lines for me symbolises a lineal,straight (in mental sense,I mean...)character.What I don´t see so clear is that dark colours in Jack´s clothes mean a misterious and shadowy character;precisely,the only thing "double",in the meaning of dark ,in him is that he lived a "double life" as straight husband and gay lover.But I think his character and way of being has less tricks than Ennis´s has ,because he expresses all his sensations and emotions in a less subtle way,he´s more open and lively and,for me,this excludes to be shadowy.I don´t know if I´ve understood it well,sorry if not...

For some reason, the colors seem to evoke day and night, and night, with all its soft, veiled connotations, can thereby be extended to Jack's character.  Perhaps I am reading too much here.  But I do feel that Jack was the more romantic, of the two.  And the dreamer, to be sure.  For is it at night that we usually dream?

 

[aintfoolin]

Their clothing did indeed were reflections of their personalities. When I first saw Jack and the way he dressed I thought : now here's a guy who knows what looks good  on him.  Cocky, proud, boastful , confient and sure of himself. Wore his rodeo belt buckle with pride , showing it off to Ennis etc. Not afraid to take a chance either.

Ennis , on the other hand , boasted a subtle  earthiness in mostly browns and light blues. muted, *quiet* colors that did'nt draw much attention to himself. Like Ennis himself. MO.

[myprivatejack]

Their clothing did indeed were reflections of their personalities. When I first saw Jack and the way he dressed I thought : now here's a guy who knows what looks good  on him.  Cocky, proud, boastful , confient and sure of himself. Wore his rodeo belt buckle with pride , showing it off to Ennis etc. Not afraid to take a chance either.

Ennis , on the other hand , boasted a subtle  earthiness in mostly browns and light blues. muted, *quiet* colors that did'nt draw much attention to himself. Like Ennis himself. MO.

Well said,aintfoolin¡This is what I meant in my former post.But,you don´t say anything about the symbolism of Jack´s red shirt in reunion scene;for me it means clearly the passion,the love,but,perhaps also the temptation,the devil-side?

[aintfoolin]

 The red shirt, ah yes the symbol of passion and fire. That was Jack in the reunion scenes *redling his way back into Ennis's heart after 4 long years. Dressed for the ocassion, and intending to get noticed , he came back to reclaim what was his. To get back with Ennis. Fortunatly, Ennis had a little fire going on himself. At that point , all clothing became obsolete in my opinion.  Red sybolizes passion and power, Jack had both that day. MO.

[babytammy7]

Ennis' pale and mixed colors clothing indicate roots: he olny knew one kind of life, the ranch life, and also he only knew Wyoming and his quiet life (living with a wife or living alone and working, nothing else). That kind of colors indicate introspection and lack to adapting himself to changes and also fears and need to go unnoticed.

Jack's solid colors clothing indicate capacity to adapting himself to changes (first BBM, then Ennis, then Texas, then Lureen, then the "once in a while".....).He was like a chameleon, he believed in everything he did, and the strong colors of his clothing showing his cheerful, open and changeable character.

My sweet MPJ NASTY, I also noticed the symbolism of Jack's red shirt. SS tell us that Ennis wore his best shirt to see Jack in the reunion scene, so probably Jack did the same: he wanted to be nice for Ennis. But is so meaningful the image Alma saw through her window: A nice man in red shirt leaning on a red truck; was it like a provocation? Like a challenge? Red color means love, passion and, as you said, temptation, but for a lot of ancestralt cultures it have always meant prohibition: something red is something forbidden!!! And if you consider BBM as their Heaven on Earth, their love as the forbidden apple, and Aguirre as the God's angel who threw them out from paradise, you clearly can see their reunion like something forbidden, and because of that Jack was also "something forbidden" to Ennis, and for Alma Jack in red was like something diabolical or wicked who was going to destroy her marriage.
So for me Jack in red is a very powerful image meaning love and of course passion, but also a clear warning: If you catch something forbidden you know what you'll get.........,punishment, pain?

[myprivatejack]

I agree with both of you,aintfoolin and my dear Babytammy;on reunion´s day Jack was as the "forbidden fruit"  to Ennis,the temptation that forces him to "sin",being unfaithful to his wife.Seeing as a symbolism,however,isn´t it a little moralist?.The same than the dead lamb that Ennis finds on the mountain after the FNIT;his duty was to watch the sheeps,avoiding that wolf could attack them.Of course,he wasn´t there,because he was "working" in a nicer job(ehem¡)and then,fail to this duty.Is it a warning to tell that if you leave your work to fall in carnal sins,you will have a punishment?

[lamusica]

I think Ennis saw it that way -- that he was being punished for falling into sin with Jack.  This only adds to Ennis's guilt and paranoia that crops up later on.  He sort of sees the dead sheep as the hand of God.

[welshwitch]

It's also disobedience ( the sin of Eve) in that he's defied Aguirre's orders and not stayed up on the mountain to guard the sheep against predators. Which is what Aguirre implies happened the year before - he looks meaningfully at Jack at that point. So what was Jack doing the year before rather than shooting coyotes?

[myprivatejack]

I think Ennis saw it that way -- that he was being punished for falling into sin with Jack.  This only adds to Ennis's guilt and paranoia that crops up later on.  He sort of sees the dead sheep as the hand of God.

Completely agree,lamusica.In such an homophobic and fundamentalist environment he was raised in,is easy to see daily events as a God punishment signal.But I wonder if this was Ang Lee´s intention by including these scenes in the movie...

[tpe]

Their clothing did indeed were reflections of their personalities. When I first saw Jack and the way he dressed I thought : now here's a guy who knows what looks good  on him.  Cocky, proud, boastful , confient and sure of himself. Wore his rodeo belt buckle with pride , showing it off to Ennis etc. Not afraid to take a chance either.

Ennis , on the other hand , boasted a subtle  earthiness in mostly browns and light blues. muted, *quiet* colors that did'nt draw much attention to himself. Like Ennis himself. MO.

Wonderful evocation here, aintfoolin.  I agree especially with your comments on Ennis -- the muted tones and earth colors.  It certainly FELT and LOOKED Ennis...

[tpe]

My sweet MPJ NASTY, I also noticed the symbolism of Jack's red shirt. SS tell us that Ennis wore his best shirt to see Jack in the reunion scene, so probably Jack did the same: he wanted to be nice for Ennis. But is so meaningful the image Alma saw through her window: A nice man in red shirt leaning on a red truck; was it like a provocation? Like a challenge? Red color means love, passion and, as you said, temptation, but for a lot of ancestralt cultures it have always meant prohibition: something red is something forbidden!!! And if you consider BBM as their Heaven on Earth, their love as the forbidden apple, and Aguirre as the God's angel who threw them out from paradise, you clearly can see their reunion like something forbidden, and because of that Jack was also "something forbidden" to Ennis, and for Alma Jack in red was like something diabolical or wicked who was going to destroy her marriage.
So for me Jack in red is a very powerful image meaning love and of course passion, but also a clear warning: If you catch something forbidden you know what you'll get.........,punishment, pain?

Well said, babytammy7.  I had mentioned in some earlier post that this image of Jack is what I call Jack as the "flaming heart."   There is passion and fire in this image, so appropriate to the reunion scene, when he seeks out Ennis...  But I also love your comment about the "forbidden".  SOmehow, I feel that it makes perfect sense.

[babytammy7]

Well said, babytammy7.  I had mentioned in some earlier post that this image of Jack is what I call Jack as the "flaming heart."   There is passion and fire in this image, so appropriate to the reunion scene, when he seeks out Ennis...  But I also love your comment about the "forbidden".  SOmehow, I feel that it makes perfect sense.

Thank you so much Thomas. I also feel that it makes sense 

[aintfoolin]

It's also the color of blood ( not  in a morbid sense,) but the essence of life itself.  The heart is  also associated with being red.  Perhaps you could say that Jack's red shirt symbolized life itself in Ennis's heart. And yes red is also asscoiated with the devil himself. Bringer of doom and destruction.. I suppose this was Alma's take on Jack' presence.

[myprivatejack]

Yes, red is blood´s colour,in the sense of giving life.Jack was giving life to Ennis with his presence after 4 years,¿no?.He was like fire in Ennis´heart, and again we see red...Also it´s the colour of what is forbidden and what is dangerous in a moral sense;doubtless,their relationship was seen so in Alma´s and their social environment case.

[tpe]

It's also the color of blood ( not  in a morbid sense,) but the essence of life itself.  The heart is  also associated with being red.  Perhaps you could say that Jack's red shirt symbolized life itself in Ennis's heart. And yes red is also asscoiated with the devil himself. Bringer of doom and destruction.. I suppose this was Alma's take on Jack' presence.

Yes, it does signify the life force, and it does signify the victim of the sacrifice, the holocaust, one may say.

And it is interesting that you bring up the image of the tempter, most especially in that scene.  Quite apt.

[edgar]

"Anything interesting up there in heaven?"

Jack asks Ennis at the reunion campfire.
Do you suppose Ennis ever reflects on this question years later, after Jack was dead, and he was sitting around a campfire all by himself, thinking of what was up there in heaven?


(Even though Jack had thought he (and Ennis) was gonna' be "marched off to hell" )

Late jumping in here....

This reminds me of the literary tradition that lovers get turned into stars or constellations after death....

In _Romeo and Juliet_, after the wedding, Romeo immediately goes to see his friends and unexpectedly walks into a fight, during which Juliet's cousin kills Romeo's friend; Romeo angrily kills Juliet's cousin, thereby setting in motion the unavoidable tragedy....

Juliet, completely unaware of these tragic events, is daydreaming about the wedding night to come.... She invokes the well-known romantic idea, saying "When he shall die, take him and cut him up in little stars, and he will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will fall in love with night . . ."

[lamusica]

Lovely observation, edgar!  I hadn't connected those dots.....

[tpe]

Late jumping in here....

This reminds me of the literary tradition that lovers get turned into stars or constellations after death....

You read my mind here, Edgar.  Castor and Pollux indeed came to mind...

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to our heroes clothing,I read somewhere that Ennis had a kind of pathetic look,wearing always some tight shirts,as from a minor size... Bearing in mind that Jack´s shirts seem rather larger,more at ease,can´t this be a metaphore of their position in life?. Ennis seems more constraint,more pressed,less at ease with clothings...and with his own feelings and kind of living,and Jack don´t.

[manhattangirl]

The way Ennis's shirt tail was coming out his pants was like he was still nine years old.