Topic: Significane of Ennis entering the Tent *Spoiler*

[chameau]

Wow!

Thanks for sharing Patriot1

I share your toughts BTW.

Please keep posting 

[jodie]

Well, the subtitles in Switzerland were no help - because there weren't any in that scene! Perhaps the translators didn't understand what Jack and Ennis were saying or they just wanted to leave that scene alone and let it speak for itself. The mystery remains...

[alicat]

I wish Mr. Lee could read this thread (and other threads like it).  He would be so proud of his talent.  A good director wants to make a movie where everyone who sees it gets something good out of every scene. 

If he could read this thread he would see that each of us came away from the second tent scene with at least a little different interpretation.


Here is mine (it encompasses a little of most everyone Else's).

Ennis has been drawn out of himself for the first time in his life.  He is talking more than he ever has. He is loving the friendship of Jack like no friendship he has ever had. He loves Jack, but is not in love with Jack.

First tent scene: Ennis is drunk.  Jack brings to the table something Ennis was not expecting, sex.  Ennis is terrified of the thought of sex with another man because of what his father made him look at when he was nine.

At first Ennis pulls away as if he had touched fire. Then, in his drunken state, he realizes that Jack is offering him something he has never had ("What are you doing?") Ennis is not queer.  He is a man and a virgin, so he takes what is being offered as a young inexperienced man, roughly and violently.  It could almost be taken as a rape, (except you can't rape the willing).

He wakes up and feels guilty he has had sex with Jack.  He snubs Jack and shoots him a disgusted look as he rides out to the sheep.  That afternoon, while riding up on the ridge, there is something eating at his mind.

Now here the screenplay says it is day time giving the impression it is the second day after the tent scene. Ennis comes upon a sheep killed by coyote pack. The sheep had obviously died violently. A look of shame washes across Ennis's face. A shame for the violent way he had treated his friend?  A shame for snubbing him for a whole day?

That night, Ennis, still feeling guilty, approaches the tent in a very submissive way, enters and says I'm sorry twice (Yes, I heard it for sure although it is not in the screenplay at all). Jack replies it is all right.

Jack gently takes Ennis's face in his hands and gently and lovingly kisses him.  Ennis kisses back. Ennis has given in to this forbidden love.

Ennis and Jack enjoy their remaining time on Brokeback Mountain as two very special friends----with privileges. ;-)

They are off of the mountain...Jack gets into his truck and drives away.  Ennis walks about half a block and suffers a gut wrenching pain in his stomach and heart.  Ennis no longer loves Jack...he realizes he is in love with Jack and should never have let him go. He will never see him again...he thinks.

Anyway, that is how I saw it.  But, like I said, each way it was seen by others is just as valid.  Mr. Lee did a great job.

I agree with your statements Patriot1 and so well put.  And I do think Ennis is saying 'I'm sorry' for how he behaved on the previous night.  I also think he may be apologising for what he went onto say to Jack, i.e 'it's a one shot thing we got going on' and 'I ain't no queer' as maybe he feels Jack perceived that as a rejection of him.  (which I think he did when Ennis was saying it, judging by his facial expression). 

Ennis going into the tent again on the 2nd night and kissing Jack so tenderly is his way of trying to let Jack know that how he behaved and what he said prior to that was wrong, hence 'I'm sorry' (for being so rough with you and for trying to reject you.)  Although it was only 3 words, I think for Ennis to contemplate saying it is very emotive for him and difficult for him to do.  The only other time he apologises for his actions again is when he has backed off from Cassie who bumps into him later on.  His 'I'm sorry, I guess I never was much fun was I?' is almost an acknowledgement of, not only how he treated Cassie, but how he treated Jack too throughout their time together. 

[aimi15]

Patriot1 i love your interpretation of the film, there is so much of what i myself felt there. I have always felt there can be a world of difference between loving someone and being in love with them, and i think you are right Ennis realised at a point when he thought it was too late that he had crossed the line from loving Jack as a companion, a friend, a sexual partner even, to being IN LOVE with the guy, a realisation which went against every moral code he'd been brought up with. Thanks for your views x

[BBBOY]

Patriot1 and aimi15, great takes on the scene and meaning giving me plenty to consider. This may have something to say about the transition from loving to being in love, from the story, "They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon." Ennis had grown up on isolated lonely ranches, probably never had anyone he could call a friend and here all of a sudden is someone he can connect with. He was flying on a cloud. When Jack took his hand and pulled it beneath the covers in the first tent scene and he realizes what is happening, instead of punching Jack's lights out, the natural response for a str8 man, he flips him over, pulls his pants down and...... What must have been going through his mind. I always knew what I was, just had trouble accepting it, but from talking to other people I realize that many go through life not knowing they are gay until some significant moment such as this. I'm not saying Ennis believed or accepted at that moment he was gay, but in both the story and the movie he puts up no resistance to what he wants that summer on Brokeback Mountain. Riding away that first morning, thinking during the day, telling Jack, "It's a one shot thing we got goin' here.", and then entering the tent the second time certainly tells us something about this complex person.
Just some random thoughts. Peace

[Patriot1]

I'm not saying Ennis believed or accepted at that moment he was gay, but in both the story and the movie he puts up no resistance to what he wants that summer on Brokeback Mountain.

When I read the sentence I quoted the hair on the back of my neck just shot straight up.  I never realized before that I would protect Ennis.  In fact, there are times when Ennis really ticks me off.

However, do you really believe Ennis was gay?  I do not.  Ennis never looked at another man ever.  Ennis was in love with a person who made him feel good about himself, who befriended him, who made him feel comfortable to be around and, yes, who he had great sex with.  It was all a package.  I could never say Ennis was gay in the least.  Jack, on the other hand was gay. He sought sex from other men and enjoyed it.

Ennis loved one person who just happened to be a man. I know I am getting into semantics here but I just can not call a person gay because they love one person who is another man.  If, when Jack wasn't around, he even looked at another man, then I would say yes, he probably is but is afraid to act on it.  But he NEVER looked at anyone but Jack.

To me, the story is about a homophobic (because of what his father did) straight man who falls in love with a gay man.

Gosh! I hope this isn't too strong.  I am fighting with myself trying to tone it down.  I have no idea why I took such offense at Ennis being thought of as gay. I have no great attraction to Ennis.  In fact, many times I have thought to myself, if I were Jack, I would have been long gone.

Why do you think Ennis is gay? It sure is possible we have different definitions of what gay is and that is legitimate.

[alicat]

alicat,

you are wrong

'I'm sorry for how he behaved on the previous night not at all

it only has to do with that moment Carpe diem? as Horatio would say

Ennis couldn't repent for his behavior of the previous night: it was just drunk sex and furthermore  he had all day to deal with his remorse and shame. Most of us have experienced that one and after a while, we laugh it off. What Ennis is apologizing for is for what he is about to give Jack at that moment: it is what he wants to give him but can't, and what he wants from Jack, he can't expect in return. it all has to do with than and there. when Jack replies it's alright, he signifies that it is only that moment that counts: the rest will be dealt with later.  one of the very few moments of passion we encounter in life.

what both didn't realize, was that this would gnaw at their lives forever afterwards...

Perhaps he is apologising for what he is about to give Jack at that moment, but I don't think you can say any particular interpretation is wrong; it all has merit.  Although Ennis may have had time to 'deal' with the remorse himself, he did not communicate that to Jack until he comes into the tent on the second night.  Here the unspoken feeling is 'I am giving myself to you'

Alicat

[Patriot1]

What Ennis is apologizing for is for what he is about to give Jack at that moment: it is what he wants to give him but can't, and what he wants from Jack, he can't expect in return. it all has to do with than and there.

I have never been the sharpest knife in the drawer and I got lost in your words.  Are you saying that Ennis is apologizing because he can not offer to Jack what Jack offered to him and he took?

[jagrafess]

Could it be that Ennis actually doesn't like himself very much and is apologising for his self and his apparent innocence ?

Or maybe he's still got this idea that homosexuality is "revolting" so his whisper of "I'm sorry" might be an apology for wanting something off Jack that he still believes is wrong?

[jerasjr]

When I saw this, I was reminded of the phrase "hat in hand"...Ennis approaches Jack hat in hand which I think means, in this instance, as a suitor, seeking his approval and doing it respectfully.  On the other hand, I also saw Ennis approach Jack witrh his hat covering his crotch, covering his manhood, but as the scene unfolds the hat is taken away and Ennis is uncovered, or comes to the realization that, at that moment, he does want to be with Jack.  Beautifully played scene, one of the best.

[Patriot1]

"...Ennis approaches Jack hat in hand...

Wow! jerasjr! I am old enough to know what "hat in hand" means. I don't know if your explanation is correct or not but it sure is a pretty and meaningful one.

Ennis was born around 1944 and he might well have known what it means also.

[*Froggy*]

Well I knew what it meant, (only because I had had to use it in a translation...) but it made me want to look it up again.

"Usage notes: said about someone who is hoping to get something they want
Etymology: based on the custom of men removing their hats to show respect, and on the idea that people beg (= ask for money) by holding out a hat,"

[Patriot1]

Could it be that Ennis actually doesn't like himself very much and is apologising for his self and his apparent innocence ?

Or maybe he's still got this idea that homosexuality is "revolting" so his whisper of "I'm sorry" might be an apology for wanting something off Jack that he still believes is wrong?

Interestingly one reviewer mentioned the very same thing.  Said Ennis kept his head down so people couldn't look him in the face and see his shame.

[BBBOY]

Gosh! I hope this isn't too strong.  I am fighting with myself trying to tone it down.  I have no idea why I took such offense at Ennis being thought of as gay. I have no great attraction to Ennis.  In fact, many times I have thought to myself, if I were Jack, I would have been long gone.

Why do you think Ennis is gay? It sure is possible we have different definitions of what gay is and that is legitimate.

Patriot1, I'm truly sorry if I raised the hackles on your neck, I certainly mean no offense to anyone in my posts here, it is more random contemplations then anything else. I'm sure Ennis would never think of himself as queer in the story, though there is a suggestion of it in the movie when he asks Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows. And then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?". Now as I see it there are two ways this can be taken, either he is saying he thinks they know about him having a relationship with a specific man or just his attraction to a "man". It's a moot point because it's not in the story.

I don't believe Ennis would ever consider himself queer or gay, if you will. I am sure there are thousands of older men and women in this country involved in intense monogamous same sex relationships who likewise would not consider themselves queer. Their love lifts them up above mere labels, and indeed it does. I'm sure there are younger couples too in the same boat, don't get me wrong but I'm close to a contemporary of Ennis and Jack, I grew up in that period and know the homophobia well. Sorry, I digress. The relationships these couples live in define what it is to be homosexual or the slang queer. So in the end is Ennis queer? I think he is. He may not be interested in other men but he is certainly interested in one man even after that man is gone to the exclusion of all others. It is indeed semantics Patriot1 but isn't that what many of the discussions in this forum are all about.  Once more, I am sorry if I upset you. Peace

[bnjmn3]

After listening to the writers and creators, their story is about repression of same gender attraction and its effects, and it is true that applying current terminology does not work. But, I still do not think Ennis apologizes. It would be as if he is apologizing for loving Jack.  Jack said he wasn't "queer neither", Jack initiated the sex..no one thinks he should apologize. But Ennis has to...doesn't click with me. They debate this on the davescullen site, too.  Geez, do we just wait for the DVD version...?

[Patriot1]

Patriot1, I'm truly sorry if I raised the hackles on your neck, I certainly mean no offense to anyone in my posts here, it is more random contemplations then anything else.

Oh no!  Of course you didn't. I didn't take it that you were trying to offend anyone.  I have no idea why I reacted like I did. It, for reasons I can not explain, hit me the wrong way.  Maybe because I had just finished watching the movie again only minutes before I logged on here.  Ennis with tears in his eyes at the end always gets to me.

I'm sure Ennis would never think of himself as queer in the story, though there is a suggestion of it in the movie when he asks Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows. And then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?". Now as I see it there are two ways this can be taken, either he is saying he thinks they know about him having a relationship with a specific man or just his attraction to a "man". It's a moot point because it's not in the story.

I am not so sure it is a moot point.  It is a part of Ennis the viewer needs to understand Ennis and his actions and reactions.

I took the scene you mention to show his paranoia about being thought of as gay.  He knew he was with a guy but he wasn't gay and he didn't want people to think he was.

I don't believe Ennis would ever consider himself queer or gay, if you will.

I don't consider him gay either  A homosexual, yes, in the truest sense of the dictionary definition.

homosexual adj of or exhibiting sexual desire toward a person of the same sex.

I wish they would change that to same gender.

So, by definition, he was a homosexual, but gay?  No, not in my opinion.
I think of a gay man as a male who has a physical and emotional attraction to men.
Interesting that according to the dictionary definition a homosexual doesn't have to have an emotional attraction to a member of the same sex, just a sexual one.

...don't get me wrong but I'm close to a contemporary of Ennis and Jack, I grew up in that period and know the homophobia well.

Me too.  Ennis and I are about the same age.  If Ennis was a real person he and I could be brothers we are so much alike.  And I also know the homophobia of that day.  I would get beat up 2 or 3 times a week by my homophobic classmates.  And again when I got home if my clothes got damaged by the fight.  When I was in high school it was Saturday night entertainment to "go roll some fags and get some beer money."  I remember those days well.

So in the end is Ennis queer? I think he is.

Looks like we are just going to have to be gentlemen and agree to disagree. 

Once more, I am sorry if I upset you. Peace

Don't give it another thought.  It was just an unexpected, unexplainable reaction of mine.  Like I said, there were a few times I didn't even like Ennis.  I was so angry the way he treated Jack when Jack came up right after the divorce. I still can not understand why he did what he did. It was horrible.
And yet, when I watch the movie, I noticed I cry the hardest over Ennis. Complex feelings over a complex man.   

[BBBOY]

And yet, when I watch the movie, I noticed I cry the hardest over Ennis. Complex feelings over a complex man.   

I am in 100% agreement with you here. He is one of the most complex characters I have ever met in literature.

[Rod]

Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet.  I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack.  *sniff*

ok, i am being somewhat graphic here but wondered in the second tent scene if taking the hat off was to show respect and vulnerability and also to hide something very obvious from a physical point of view, also in the book, when ennis and jack walk in to the house getting together after four years, there is talk of him being in dark and that was good, like he didn't want alms to see something pokin out....

[Patriot1]

Ok brothers, sisters and friends.  I am not sure that it is vital to the enjoyment or understanding of the movie, but last night/this morning I spent more than an hour playing and replaying 8 seconds of the movie to hear what the boys say in the second tent scene.  I enhanced the sound until I couldn't any more and tried to get some of the music out so I could hear.  The only way I could have done better or more is if I was in an FBI lab. Here is the result.

After the first kiss, Ennis says to Jack, "I'm sorry.  I'm so sorry"  Jack replies, "It's alright."  Why Ang Lee kept that so soft and covered by music I will never understand.  It is so beautiful.

Then I watched them lay down and kiss over and over for...oh...another...30 minutes.  I was melted to my chair.

Interesting, to me anyway, was that the only place I got aroused was in my heart.  It was such a beautiful scene from beginning to end.  I have seen many XXX rated films in my lifetime and many of those movies had very desirable men in them.  But, never have I seen a love scene performed so well. And it took straight men to do it well!! 

[christie wood]

Patriot1, I will have to take your word for it after your in-depth analysis of this scene (loved your comment about FBI lab by the way!).  Every time I view that scene, I look intently at their lips to see who's is moving, but I tend to become a bit distracted by their actions, rather than their words!   

So Ennis says "I'm SO sorry"?  Oh my god, that is too gorgeous for words.  As if this wasn't one of the most beautiful love scenes I've ever seen, those words just add extra beauty and depth to it.

Thank you Patriot1, for all your hard work! 

[Patriot1]

Every time I view that scene, I look intently at their lips to see who's is moving, but I tend to become a bit distracted by their actions, rather than their words!

Actually, you can not see Ennis's  lips move.  But, just before he says "I'm sorry" you can see him move his lips from the kissing position to the way he normally talks, with his mouth barely open. 

Jack, there is a very slight lip movement that you wouldn't notice unless you watched the scene a hundred times like I did.  But, you do see his head nod slightly when he says, "It's alright."  They both whisper so softly it is even difficult to tell the voices apart.  The words are not coming from the vocal chords.  They are just air leaving the lips and manipulated by the tongue.

So Ennis says "I'm SO sorry"?  Oh my god, that is too gorgeous for words.  As if this wasn't one of the most beautiful love scenes I've ever seen, those words just add extra beauty and depth to it.

You can say that again christie.  Putting all my prejudice in a box for a minute, these two boys deserve the highest award any actor can receive. An actor is suppose to perform his art so his character and the story reach out and grab you.  These two boys succeeded beyond what anyone could have expected.  I think the reaction by the audiences is testimony to that.

Thank you Patriot1, for all your hard work! 

No thanks necessary. It was a true pleasure. I doubt I will ever see acting that good again in my lifetime.

[Rønnaug]

Actually, you can not see Ennis's  lips move.  But, just before he says "I'm sorry" you can see him move his lips from the kissing position to the way he normally talks, with his mouth barely open. 

Jack, there is a very slight lip movement that you wouldn't notice unless you watched the scene a hundred times like I did.  But, you do see his head nod slightly when he says, "It's alright."  They both whisper so softly it is even difficult to tell the voices apart.  The words are not coming from the vocal chords.  They are just air leaving the lips and manipulated by the tongue.

i guess you've got better toys than me I haven't been able to see or hear anything even after turning sound up and all that. Haven't been able to get rid of the music tho... I hear Jack say three diferent variations of It's alright lol

Could it have been added in post prod? This is killing me...got to figure this out. Whwn I'm of work on wednesday I am going to find out if it is possible to get an answer from any of the parties involved on this... It's worse than who shot Kennedy 

[Patriot1]

I haven't been able to see or hear anything even after turning sound up and all that.

You don't even see Jack ever so slightly nod his head?

I hear Jack say three diferent variations of It's alright lol

LOL In the beginning I thought I heard two. 

Could it have been added in post prod?

Very interesting question.  I wondered the same thing for a bit.  But then I asked myself, why would they go to all the trouble of putting it in there and then make it so you can't hear it? So, I just dismissed that. 

However, like I said, I could not recognize the voices. It very well could have been someone else saying that and dubbing it in. But again, why and not make it audible?

It's worse than who shot Kennedy 

LOL  Or who shot JR?   

[Rønnaug]

You don't even see Jack ever so slightly nod his head?

I do, and thats what is troubling me...I have thought it is a nod to confirm something UNSPOKEN, like " I know it is difficult for you to come in here to me now but it is ok, and I will be gentle and I will be good to you". With that it is no problem figuring out why he would say it's alright without Enis saying something first.

LOL  Or who shot JR?   

Well..you see, I wasn't old enough to watch Dallas when that happened so due to reruns I kinda already knew that one hihi.... JFK on the other hand...At least it ISN'T LHO...

[bnjmn3]

That "Who Shot JR?" dragged on forever..at least a few months into the following season. This debate will be over sooner!!! (Three its allrights here I think). Anyone heard the any other deviations from the screenplay in the film in addition to Ennis's apology??

[ethan]

That "Who Shot JR?" dragged on forever..at least a few months into the following season. This debate will be over sooner!!! (Three its allrights here I think). Anyone heard the any other deviations from the screenplay in the film in addition to Ennis's apology??

Yes. There is another one - Ennis said something like I can't take it anymore in the last scene with Jack. But that is a different discussion. See the topic below.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1038.0

[Rønnaug]

That "Who Shot JR?" dragged on forever..at least a few months into the following season. This debate will be over sooner!!! (Three its allrights here I think). Anyone heard the any other deviations from the screenplay in the film in addition to Ennis's apology??

The entire 2.nd tent scene is not in the screenplay

[jerasjr]

Basically agree with most of this, except cannot in my mind rationalize that the 2nd tent scene took place the night after the first.  Since it is not in the book, guess we'll never know.  But given Ennis' natural reticence, I cannot see them having such an absolutely stunning love scene the next night.  Feel that Ennis would have needed some time before committing to even approaching Jack to say nothing about having sex with him again.  Maybe that is what the "I'm sorry" is about, taking time in his own mind to reconcile that he does want to be with Jack.  And sorry folks, I just don't hear it, but I'm old and feeble so it can be forgiven.  Talked about this time thing in my post... why the rush?

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Basically agree with most of this, except cannot in my mind rationalize that the 2nd tent scene took place the night after the first.  Since it is not in the book, guess we'll never know.  But given Ennis' natural reticence, I cannot see them having such an absolutely stunning love scene the next night.  Feel that Ennis would have needed some time before committing to even approaching Jack to say nothing about having sex with him again.  Maybe that is what the "I'm sorry" is about, taking time in his own mind to reconcile that he does want to be with Jack.  And sorry folks, I just don't hear it, but I'm old and feeble so it can be forgiven.  Talked about this time thing in my post... why the rush?

Your reasoning for the 2nd tent scene not taking place the next night makes sense.  Ennis's personality would require time to sort through it all.  Let's remember Jack's personality also.  How much space do you think he would have given Ennis?  Ennis didn't growl or kill him the next day.  Jack also could have stayed at the camp site and avoided Ennis until he returned for a meal.  Personally, I don't think Jack could handle the the long suspense of not knowing whether things were ok between the two of them. 

[jerasjr]

Now I'm not saying it took the rest of the summer for the 2nd tent scene to happen, but maybe a few days... don't think that a few days would have made any difference to Jack at this point.  It seems as if he has had some encounters before, and absolutely one-night-stands, so what more could he expect?  That there was a second tent scene is a key point, that's why I feel it takes some time to come to the second tent scene, it is an important decision for both o f them.  Jack was probably more infatuated at this point, Ennis trying to cope with this unexpected sitation.