Topic: Significane of Ennis entering the Tent *Spoiler*

[vedrana]

In real life, people have devised many ways/excuses to justify this.  For example, some people think that only bottoms can be rightfully considered queers and that tops are not...

Do you think that Ennis defend his homosexual act in that way? - I'm top, so only Jack is queer.

[jesseanne21]

Do you think that Ennis defend his homosexual act in that way? - I'm top, so only Jack is queer.

I don't think Ennis ever really THOUGHT about what he did with Jack.  He said he wasn't queer and never gave it another thought.   I think he was so twisted up with fear and guilt that he couldn't really understand (until after Jack died) what he really felt.

Psychotherapist M. Scott Peck, tells the story about one of his patients in his book "The Road Less Travelled."  The parents of a young married woman (she was in her mid-20s) engage Dr. Peck to help their daughter.  Her husband had brought her to live with her parents because he did not know what was going on and he could not help her.  She had been a  pretty and outgoing young woman,  but now she spent every waking hour PRAYING.  She barely ate, wouldn't bathe or clean herself, wouldn't change out of her pajamas and WOULD NOT go outside. 

Dr. Peck worked with the woman for a few months.  The woman had been married about two years to a husband selected by her parents.  She had a strong religious upbringing.  She had dated only the men her parents approved of and was a virgin when she married. 

After a couple of years of marriage the woman realized that she didn't really like/love/care for her husband and she CONSIDERED leaving him.  She saw a man she had dated briefly and CONSIDERED what it might be like to be married to him instead of her husband.  She never actually talked to the other man, she didn't date him, only CONSIDERED divorce or an extramarital affair.

Her GUILT from just CONSIDERING other possibilities caused her so much distress that all she could do was PRAY.

Sometimes the difference between what WE WANT and what WE THINK WE SHOULD WANT is so painful that it can paralyze us. 

Ennis wasn't stupid, but he didn't have much education.   Also, he didn't have ANYONE he could talk to about his feelings.  Alma?  NO.  His brother or sister?  NO.  A clergyman?  NO.  A therapist?  So he stayed paralyzed and in pain.

[vedrana]

I don't think Ennis ever really THOUGHT about what he did with Jack.  He said he wasn't queer and never gave it another thought.   I think he was so twisted up with fear and guilt that he couldn't really understand (until after Jack died) what he really felt.

Psychotherapist M. Scott Peck, tells the story about one of his patients in his book "The Road Less Travelled."  The parents of a young married woman (she was in her mid-20s) engage Dr. Peck to help their daughter.  Her husband had brought her to live with her parents because he did not know what was going on and he could not help her.  She had been a  pretty and outgoing young woman,  but now she spent every waking hour PRAYING.  She barely ate, wouldn't bathe or clean herself, wouldn't change out of her pajamas and WOULD NOT go outside. 

Dr. Peck worked with the woman for a few months.  The woman had been married about two years to a husband selected by her parents.  She had a strong religious upbringing.  She had dated only the men her parents approved of and was a virgin when she married. 

After a couple of years of marriage the woman realized that she didn't really like/love/care for her husband and she CONSIDERED leaving him.  She saw a man she had dated briefly and CONSIDERED what it might be like to be married to him instead of her husband.  She never actually talked to the other man, she didn't date him, only CONSIDERED divorce or an extramarital affair.

Her GUILT from just CONSIDERING other possibilities caused her so much distress that all she could do was PRAY.

Sometimes the difference between what WE WANT and what WE THINK WE SHOULD WANT is so painful that it can paralyze us. 

Ennis wasn't stupid, but he didn't have much education.   Also, he didn't have ANYONE he could talk to about his feelings.  Alma?  NO.  His brother or sister?  NO.  A clergyman?  NO.  A therapist?  So he stayed paralyzed and in pain.

jesseanne21 

I understand what you want to say, but Ennis, the same as the young woman from your story surely gave their "sin" a thought.

In SS during motel scene Ennis asked Jack (and himself): "Do you think that I am... I mean I can't be. We both have wives and....."

So, I think that he gave it a lot thought cos if not, it would've been much easier for him, right? I think that it was in some subconscious level all the time, tearing him apart and as you said paralyzing him to make one step more and embrace Jack's offer for sweet life.

Still, how did he explain it to himself? And control it during 20 years?  Still not 100% clear...

[jesseanne21]

jesseanne21 

I understand what you want to say, but Ennis, the same as the young woman from your story surely gave their "sin" a thought.

In SS during motel scene Ennis asked Jack (and himself): "Do you think that I am... I mean I can't be. We both have wives and....."

So, I think that he gave it a lot thought cos if not, it would've been much easier for him, right? I think that it was in some subconscious level all the time, tearing him apart and as you said paralyzing him to make one step more and embrace Jack's offer for sweet life.

Still, how did he explain it to himself? And control it during 20 years?  Still not 100% clear...

I think the thoughts would come up often, but they were very painful for him so he would push it from his mind.  He could never see himself as homosexual, so he just ignored it.  He justified his behavior (I can't be...We both have wives)  and kept doing what he wanted to do (be with Jack).

A LOT of people do this.  They just ignore the painful realities in their lives.  In some ways, this is how some people are able to cope with the pain in their lives.

We here on this forum spend a lot of time thinking about and analyzing the story/movie, but do we spend as much time thinking about and analyzing our own lives?  I doubt it. 

Ennis was in a lot of pain.  But neither of the solutions to end his pain (1. Live the sweet life with Jack; 2. Live his life without Jack) were acceptable to him.  So, he couldn't fix it, so he just had to stand it.

[vedrana]

I think the thoughts would come up often, but they were very painful for him so he would push it from his mind.  He could never see himself as homosexual, so he just ignored it.  He justified his behavior (I can't be...We both have wives)  and kept doing what he wanted to do (be with Jack).

A LOT of people do this.  They just ignore the painful realities in their lives.  In some ways, this is how some people are able to cope with the pain in their lives.

We here on this forum spend a lot of time thinking about and analyzing the story/movie, but do we spend as much time thinking about and analyzing our own lives?  I doubt it. 

Ennis was in a lot of pain.  But neither of the solutions to end his pain (1. Live the sweet life with Jack; 2. Live his life without Jack) were acceptable to him.  So, he couldn't fix it, so he just had to stand it.

I think that this is much nearer to the truth... 

I can say for myself that I often analyze my life... to be honest - sometimes doesn't help at all! 

[tpe]

Do you think that Ennis defend his homosexual act in that way? - I'm top, so only Jack is queer.

Perhaps...  It is not uncommon, actually.

[tpe]

I don't think Ennis ever really THOUGHT about what he did with Jack.  He said he wasn't queer and never gave it another thought.   I think he was so twisted up with fear and guilt that he couldn't really understand (until after Jack died) what he really felt.

Psychotherapist M. Scott Peck, tells the story about one of his patients in his book "The Road Less Travelled."  The parents of a young married woman (she was in her mid-20s) engage Dr. Peck to help their daughter.  Her husband had brought her to live with her parents because he did not know what was going on and he could not help her.  She had been a  pretty and outgoing young woman,  but now she spent every waking hour PRAYING.  She barely ate, wouldn't bathe or clean herself, wouldn't change out of her pajamas and WOULD NOT go outside. 

Dr. Peck worked with the woman for a few months.  The woman had been married about two years to a husband selected by her parents.  She had a strong religious upbringing.  She had dated only the men her parents approved of and was a virgin when she married. 

After a couple of years of marriage the woman realized that she didn't really like/love/care for her husband and she CONSIDERED leaving him.  She saw a man she had dated briefly and CONSIDERED what it might be like to be married to him instead of her husband.  She never actually talked to the other man, she didn't date him, only CONSIDERED divorce or an extramarital affair.

Her GUILT from just CONSIDERING other possibilities caused her so much distress that all she could do was PRAY.

Sometimes the difference between what WE WANT and what WE THINK WE SHOULD WANT is so painful that it can paralyze us. 

Ennis wasn't stupid, but he didn't have much education.   Also, he didn't have ANYONE he could talk to about his feelings.  Alma?  NO.  His brother or sister?  NO.  A clergyman?  NO.  A therapist?  So he stayed paralyzed and in pain.

This is a good point, and it also touches what I said before about mental compartmentalization.  Of course, we see this in many instances in the gay community itself -- people who prefer to engage in homosexual acts and yet say that they are not gay.

And yes, I think that in the case of Ennis, he just couldn't cope with his feelings.  This certainly was a major source of his pain.

[vedrana]

Perhaps...  It is not uncommon, actually.

Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."

He put himself clearly out of "those boys".

[myprivatejack]

Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."

He put himself clearly out of "those boys".

Yes,this is something that has always cached my attention...For me,it's also a clear proof that Ennis spent half his life denying his feelings and his way of living them.He wasn't "one of these boys like Jack",but I wouldn't say so clearly that this "being outside" was due to be on top or not.It was mainly a kind of being out of this so feared denomination of "queer".

[vedrana]

Yes,this is something that has always cached my attention...For me,it's also a clear proof that Ennis spent half his life denying his feelings and his way of living them.He wasn't "one of these boys like Jack",but I wouldn't say so clearly that this "being outside" was due to be on top or not.It was mainly a kind of being out of this so feared denomination of "queer".

Ennis thought that controlling all his wishes and needs aside of Jack, he was almost normal. And Jack yearning for him, so openly speaking about their relationship, not having such a burden for being sexually involved with a man , was not as normal as him.

(I hated when they hurt each other in FC!  :\'( )

[tpe]

Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."

He put himself clearly out of "those boys".

Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?

[vedrana]

Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?

We can not know exactly, but obviously for him there was a difference between him and Jack! Even if we say that he was only using it as a weapon to hurt Jack, still- he had something on his mind to say such a hurting words to Jack, who, on the other hand would never hurt him in the same way.

[myprivatejack]

Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?

We can not know exactly, but obviously for him there was a difference between him and Jack! Even if we say that he was only using it as a weapon to hurt Jack, still- he had something on his mind to say such a hurting words to Jack, who, on the other hand would never hurt him in the same way.

As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.

[vedrana]

As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.

In fact, when we think of the exact time when this words were said, it is obvious that Jack's open wish for a sweet life with him and resenting Ennis not to accept it for 20 years was just the trigger point.
"Boys like Jack" want to live with other men, "boys like Jack" go to Mexico, "boys like Jack" can not endure 20 years of loneliness like me, "boys like Jack" are queer and that is wrong!
Maybe Jack's words were too hurtful for Ennis, cos he, himself was also always yearning for their sweet life and Jack mentioning his offer for sweet life made Ennis become like a wounded animal - aggressive! And then things went thoroughly wrong...  :\'(

[tpe]

We can not know exactly, but obviously for him there was a difference between him and Jack! Even if we say that he was only using it as a weapon to hurt Jack, still- he had something on his mind to say such a hurting words to Jack, who, on the other hand would never hurt him in the same way.

As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.

SO do you both think that Ennis thought that there was an effeminacy in Jack that was alien to him?    I also tend to wonder whether Ennis simply made the distinction just to wound Jack's feelings.

I personally begin to think more and more that it was Jack's greater openness and acceptance of that side of his nature that annoyed and disturbed Ennis -- enough for him to make such a distinction between himself and Jack...

[myprivatejack]

SO do you both think that Ennis thought that there was an effeminacy in Jack that was alien to him?    I also tend to wonder whether Ennis simply made the distinction just to wound Jack's feelings.

I personally begin to think more and more that it was Jack's greater openness and acceptance of that side of his nature that annoyed and disturbed Ennis -- enough for him to make such a distinction between himself and Jack...

If I haven't understood badly,what you say in your second paragraph is more or less what Loreen and me meant...(if I'm wrong,sorry): Ennis had too hidden feelings,even for himself,as not being annoyed for Jack's "boldness" and,even,greater exhibition of his homosexuality.For him,I think it was as if Jack made too much a "queer" role,meanwhile he was the "normal"man,disguised as straight and hidden in his masculine appearance.Nevertheless,in this very moment,I really tend to believe that it was only a "smoke curtain"-do you say it so?-to avoid talking about "the sweet life together" Jack seemed to begin with his"I did once".

[vedrana]

SO do you both think that Ennis thought that there was an effeminacy in Jack that was alien to him?    I also tend to wonder whether Ennis simply made the distinction just to would Jack's feelings.

I personally begin to think more and more that it was Jack's greater openness and acceptance of that side of his nature that annoyed and disturbed Ennis -- enough for him to make such a distinction between himself and Jack...

I don't think that Jack was effeminate at all, and maybe Ennis also didn't think it in that way. But Jack's way of accepting himself as a man in love with another man was the huge difference from Ennis's idea of himself.

Now when you ask, I believe that Jack being so open about his feelings, so brave in fighting for his man's love, not caring for others' opinion, made Ennis even more paranoid! I suppose that, had Jack being more private about his feelings, Ennis would've felt more comfortable about it!

That is surely one of the reasons why he said "boys like you" - boys who openly wants to live with another guy! The timing of this statement (after Jack mentioned his past tense proposal for a common life) shows that Ennis deliberately wanted to hurt Jack!

Also Ennis thought - if he wants to be with me so badly, maybe he's also doing it with other guys. Therefore he said: Ever been to Mexico, Jack?

Very sad and hurtful scene!  :\'( At the same time very complicated....

[ksxks]

Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."

He put himself clearly out of "those boys".

Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?

Very interesting, Thomas -- I never thought of this, but it certainly makes sense.  So it wasn't necessarily Ennis accusing Jack of being queer without including himself in that group, but that he wasn't a passive or bottom, as he was saying Jack was.

However, even though I don't have an abundance of inside information about gay men's relationships, and this probably says more about me than about any "reality" of Ennis and Jack, but I am of the belief that they came to be both with each other, top/bottom, whatever.  I know there might be some amount of inclination one way or the other, but after 20 years, I doubt that Ennis could stand there and call Jack a "boys like you" meaning bottom, when he must have indulged in that himself during all those years.

So maybe he did just mean queer, as in more openly or overtly queer, or queer with more than one man.

kathy

[ksxks]

As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.

Excellent point, mpj.  This is probably more the true gist of this interchange, Ennis' "attacking" Jack.  He indeed did not have many "weapons" in his life-arsenal for dealing with who Jack was to him.  Poor Ennis...complicated, as you said.

kathy

[tpe]

I don't think that Jack was effeminate at all, and maybe Ennis also didn't think it in that way. But Jack's way of accepting himself as a man in love with another man was the huge difference from Ennis's idea of himself.

Now when you ask, I believe that Jack being so open about his feelings, so brave in fighting for his man's love, not caring for others' opinion, made Ennis even more paranoid! I suppose that, had Jack being more private about his feelings, Ennis would've felt more comfortable about it!

That is surely one of the reasons why he said "boys like you" - boys who openly wants to live with another guy! The timing of this statement (after Jack mentioned his past tense proposal for a common life) shows that Ennis deliberately wanted to hurt Jack!

Also Ennis thought - if he wants to be with me so badly, maybe he's also doing it with other guys. Therefore he said: Ever been to Mexico, Jack?

Very sad and hurtful scene!  :\'( At the same time very complicated....

That is true.  But I also wonder whether Ennis harbored any hidden resentment of Jack's seeming acceptance of who he was -- an insecurity, perhaps?  Perhaps we also glimpse a bit of the insecurity when he sheepishly enters the tent during SNIT.  Would Ennis have been slightly envious of Jack's greater certainty?

[tpe]

Very interesting, Thomas -- I never thought of this, but it certainly makes sense.  So it wasn't necessarily Ennis accusing Jack of being queer without including himself in that group, but that he wasn't a passive or bottom, as he was saying Jack was.

However, even though I don't have an abundance of inside information about gay men's relationships, and this probably says more about me than about any "reality" of Ennis and Jack, but I am of the belief that they came to be both with each other, top/bottom, whatever.  I know there might be some amount of inclination one way or the other, but after 20 years, I doubt that Ennis could stand there and call Jack a "boys like you" meaning bottom, when he must have indulged in that himself during all those years.

So maybe he did just mean queer, as in more openly or overtly queer, or queer with more than one man.

kathy

This makes sense to me.  Pehaps it was Jack's openness and acceptance after all that grated on Ennis's nerves.  And as I said in my previous post, perhaps Ennis secretly resented jack's openness...

[vedrana]

That is true.  But I also wonder whether Ennis harbored any hidden resentment of Jack's seeming acceptance of who he was -- an insecurity, perhaps?  Perhaps we also glimpse a bit of the insecurity when he sheepishly enters the tent during SNIT.  Would Ennis have been slightly envious of Jack's greater certainty?

This makes sense to me.  Pehaps it was Jack's openness and acceptance after all that grated on Ennis's nerves.  And as I said in my previous post, perhaps Ennis secretly resented jack's openness...

Hm... when entering the tent (which is the topic here ) Ennis still didn't think about their relationship so much in the queerness light. Sure he did, but the open area of the mountain scattered his fear and any kind of resentment. The night was young as well as their love, and he didn't give it much thought, IMO. He just jump into the love!

In the later years when Ennis had enough time in Riverton to contemplate about two of them, some things just inequitable shadowed others, that is - his fears overcome his love. And then we have his attempt to distinguish himself from Jack and spoke it out loud to justify his own mistakes during the years.

[tpe]

Hm... when entering the tent (which is the topic here ) Ennis still didn't think about their relationship so much in the queerness light. Sure he did, but the open area of the mountain scattered his fear and any kind of resentment. The night was young as well as their love, and he didn't give it much thought, IMO. He just jump into the love!

In the later years when Ennis had enough time in Riverton to contemplate about two of them, some things just inequitable shadowed others, that is - his fears overcome his love. And then we have his attempt to distinguish himself from Jack and spoke it out loud to justify his own mistakes during the years.

Well, as he outlined in the short talk with Jack right beofe SNIT, Ennis had every intention that this relationship would not be permanent -- perhaps this was enough for him to justify his actions as not making him queer.

[vedrana]

Well, as he outlined in the short talk with Jack right beofe SNIT, Ennis had every intention that this relationship would not be permanent -- perhaps this was enough for him to justify his actions as not making him queer.

Maybe in his mind it was enough at the time, coz the circumstances on the Brokeback were favorable for their love. Within the walls of society things worsen.

[tpe]

Maybe in his mind it was enough at the time, coz the circumstances on the Brokeback were favorable for their love. Within the walls of society things worsen.

Exactly.

Perhaps it is Ennis's attempt of having his cake and eating it too, as the saying goes...

[vedrana]

Exactly.

Perhaps it is Ennis's attempt of having his cake and eating it too, as the saying goes...

But he almost choke on that cherry cake...

[tpe]

But he almost choke on that cherry cake...

   Well, let's just say that it was a hard cake to ingest/swallow. 

Even after they had agreed upon the temporary nature of the arrangements, it is interesting to see Ennis seemingly so reluctant to enter the tent.  Was he too shy to show how much he wanted it?  Or was a part of him genuinely repulsed by his on strong desires?

[vedrana]

  Well, let's just say that it was a hard cake to ingest/swallow. 

Even after they had agreed upon the temporary nature of the arrangements, it is interesting to see Ennis seemingly so reluctant to enter the tent.  Was he too shy to show how much he wanted it?  Or was a part of him genuinely repulsed by his on strong desires?

I have to admit that i wasn't sure if Ennis was saying that FNIT was "one shot thing" or their relationship altogether on Brokeback.

I assume that he was shy (I know that I would be!  )

[myprivatejack]

  Well, let's just say that it was a hard cake to ingest/swallow.  Even after they had agreed upon the temporary nature of the arrangements, it is interesting to see Ennis seemingly so reluctant to enter the tent.  Was he too shy to show how much he wanted it?  Or was a part of him genuinely repulsed by his on strong desires?

I think it is a mixture of feelings and reactions,as almost always in Ennis case...As always,he felt attracted but repulsed,shy to show it but in a rush willing...
  A cake? a cherry?...I thought we were speaking about another kind of fruit...OK, shut up ¡.

[vedrana]

I think it is a mixture of feelings and reactions,as almost always in Ennis case...As always,he felt attracted but repulsed,shy to show it but in a rush willing...
  A cake? a cherry?...I thought we were speaking about another kind of fruit...OK, shut up ¡.