Author Topic: was ennis gay ?  (Read 651186 times)

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #180 on: Oct 02, 2006, 10:21 PM »
I like all these insightful comments.  I tend to think, like monicita, that Ennis is more just attracted to Jack than he is "gay."  He knew enough about queer to know it was bad news, and his early experience certainly had to have made him think about it more throughout his formative years than he would have if that had never happened, if Earl and Rich hadn't lived by him, if his horrid father hadn't shown him Earl in the ditch.  So I'm sure he would have entertained ideas, if he ever had any feelings about a boy.  And it might have been natural for this to happen, as it would be for any boys, in whatever situations they find themselves in their awakening sexuality, where they feel that spark of feeling and they happen to be with a boy when they feel it.

So the idea wouldn't have been new to him, but I'm sure he thought it was totally out of the realm of possibility that anything would ever happen in his life...until Jack struts onto the scene and captures his heart and his libido.

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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #181 on: Oct 03, 2006, 07:27 AM »
I think that you all have a good point here, but in my opinion, I think that at the beginning Ennis was very lonely ,then he just fell completely in love with Jack,
 the only human being that gave him the warmth he so desperately seeked.

Who can know the twists of the human heart, no?  When it is lonely, it will respond deeply to any hint of kindness.  After all, is not love a response to loneliness? 

Whether or not he was gay, we know that he responded to love.


Offline christie wood

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #182 on: Oct 03, 2006, 04:53 PM »
I think that you all have a good point here, but in my opinion, I think that at the beginning Ennis was very lonely ,then he just fell completely in love with Jack,
 the only human being that gave him the warmth he so desperately seeked.

Who can know the twists of the human heart, no?  When it is lonely, it will respond deeply to any hint of kindness.  After all, is not love a response to loneliness? 

Whether or not he was gay, we know that he responded to love.



Beautifully put tpe, as always.  You have a way with words. 
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #183 on: Oct 04, 2006, 07:39 AM »


Thank you, christie.  I do think we connect with and love Ennis deeply because he struggled (like all of us) to respond to love, and not because of his sexuality.

Offline JT

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #184 on: Oct 06, 2006, 11:14 PM »
I always like your imput, tpe.  Very well said.  It comes to a piont where it doesn't matter what his sexuality is.  We know who he really love at the end and I think that love is whats important.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #185 on: Oct 07, 2006, 03:52 PM »
I always like your imput, tpe.  Very well said.  It comes to a piont where it doesn't matter what his sexuality is.  We know who he really love at the end and I think that love is whats important.

Thanks, JT.  I have found myself settling on this after all the back-and-forth discussions in this thread and in the thread dealing with Jack's sexuality.   In spite of my own sexual preferences, I would like to think that the ability to love goes beyond a rigorously defined sexuality.


Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #186 on: Oct 07, 2006, 04:31 PM »
AS I've said before, i think in the end no matter how you see yourself, if you fall in lovei it's with an individual and at that moment it doesn't matter if the one you love is straight, gay, black, white or a Martian. Ennis loves Jack and its Jack's individuality, the Jackness of Jack if you like, that he loves.

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #187 on: Oct 07, 2006, 08:13 PM »
AS I've said before, i think in the end no matter how you see yourself, if you fall in lovei it's with an individual and at that moment it doesn't matter if the one you love is straight, gay, black, white or a Martian. Ennis loves Jack and its Jack's individuality, the Jackness of Jack if you like, that he loves.

Beautiful post Welshwitch  ^f^

Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #188 on: Oct 08, 2006, 08:18 AM »
Thank you, Greenfrog. I believe it - I think the "Love is a force of nature" line they used to publiciize the movie is true. Don't think any other factors really matter when the lightning strikes.

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #189 on: Oct 08, 2006, 09:59 PM »
Don't think any other factors really matter when the lightning strikes.

Except if you standing under a tree.  ;)

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #190 on: Oct 09, 2006, 08:31 AM »
Thank you, Greenfrog. I believe it - I think the "Love is a force of nature" line they used to publiciize the movie is true. Don't think any other factors really matter when the lightning strikes.

I think "Love is human" is also an equivalent statement.  The fact that you love (not necessarily who you love) is what defines humanity.

Offline EnnisTwist

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #191 on: Oct 14, 2006, 05:48 PM »
Ennis did blame it all on Jack when he said that Jack's why he's like that.. So if Ennis was gay that wouldn't make much sense. Even if Ennis could somehow stop loving Jack he would still be into guys so he couldn't be able to blame Jack..
There is an alternative to going out in a blaze of glory, and that's giving 'em all the big 'f*** you.'

Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #192 on: Oct 15, 2006, 07:55 AM »
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.

I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #193 on: Oct 15, 2006, 03:19 PM »
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.

I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.

I think that's what Ennis means by that, also.  Not about being queer, but about his nowhere situation.  However, he can't really blame Jack, because Jack offered him something else, a sweet life together.  It's playing by Ennis's rules that keeps Ennis in the situation he is in.

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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #194 on: Oct 16, 2006, 07:34 AM »
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.

I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.

I think that's what Ennis means by that, also.  Not about being queer, but about his nowhere situation.  However, he can't really blame Jack, because Jack offered him something else, a sweet life together.  It's playing by Ennis's rules that keeps Ennis in the situation he is in.

kathy

I agree.  But I should also like to stress that I think Ennis himself knew that the main conflict was in himself, and was not something created by Jack.  Jack's presence in his life forced Ennis to confront his innermost feelings, and the confrontation caused him a great deal of anguish.

 

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #195 on: Oct 16, 2006, 08:45 PM »
DEpends what he means by "like this". He's talking about his financial, social, emotional situation as much as the sexual ambiguities, i think. He follows it with "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" and this is related to his desperation to cling to his current job, his inability to see Jack when he wants to, the fact that he's constatly given up jobs to be with Jack and is therefore badly off, to the fact that Jack with his financial advantages doesn't seem to understand Ennis's poverty or why and how it's come about.

I don't think Ennis is saying that Jack made him gay, so to speak, and I don;t think he ever thinks he is gay.

I think that's what Ennis means by that, also.  Not about being queer, but about his nowhere situation.  However, he can't really blame Jack, because Jack offered him something else, a sweet life together.  It's playing by Ennis's rules that keeps Ennis in the situation he is in.

kathy

I agree.  But I should also like to stress that I think Ennis himself knew that the main conflict was in himself, and was not something created by Jack.  Jack's presence in his life forced Ennis to confront his innermost feelings, and the confrontation caused him a great deal of anguish.


Very true.  These dynamics, within each man and between them, had been going on all this time, but it was how it all blew up finally, when Jack couldn't take it anymore, that of course caused Ennis such pain.  And he had not only his own conflicts and pain to deal with, but now his knowledge, thrown in his face, of the pain he'd been causing Jack.

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #196 on: Oct 17, 2006, 07:32 AM »
kathy, I do think you have made an important observation here: the relationship between Jack and Ennis was dynamic rather than static.  It is easy to think that their relationship did not change that much in the almost 20 years of knowing each other, until we call to mind the important shifts and movements in the interveneing years.  At the risk of generalization, I would say that Jack's view on his own sexuality was a journey of gradual acknowledgement and openess, whereas Ennis's traced an arc from caution to openess, and final introversion.  It can be argued that their sexual development traced similar paths.  But what is important to note that in his lonely end, Ennis did come to a realization of his true and deep love for Jack.  If this implied gayness, then so be it.  But if it meant something that went beyond a black and white question of gayness, then we should also be prepared to say that love, like life itself, is can be as dynamic as it can be constant.  Perhaps in the end, Ennis's love was more spiritual rather than physical, and we know that on a spiritual plane, distinctions on gender are secondary.



 

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #197 on: Oct 17, 2006, 04:54 PM »
kathy, I do think you have made an important observation here: the relationship between Jack and Ennis was dynamic rather than static.  It is easy to think that their relationship did not change that much in the almost 20 years of knowing each other, until we call to mind the important shifts and movements in the interveneing years.  At the risk of generalization, I would say that Jack's view on his own sexuality was a journey of gradual acknowledgement and openess, whereas Ennis's traced an arc from caution to openess, and final introversion.  It can be argued that their sexual development traced similar paths.  But what is important to note that in his lonely end, Ennis did come to a realization of his true and deep love for Jack.  If this implied gayness, then so be it.  But if it meant something that went beyond a black and white question of gayness, then we should also be prepared to say that love, like life itself, is can be as dynamic as it can be constant.  Perhaps in the end, Ennis's love was more spiritual rather than physical, and we know that on a spiritual plane, distinctions on gender are secondary.


And maybe after Jack was gone, Ennis realized exactly that.  Both realizations, actually.  That Jack was a man and he, Ennis loved him, and so he must be queer.  And that the nature of love was that gender didn't matter.  I hope he didn't end up too tortured by his foolish past.  Tortured that he brought on all this pain on himself and for Jack when he could have let go a little and made both their lives a lot simpler.  I hope this isn't straying from your point too much.  I'm not a fan of post-Jack Ennis-finds-love fic (haven't read any but I know it's out there), but supposing that for the moment, maybe Ennis could now let go of his fears.  It was Jack he had fears for, not himself; and Jack's presence all these years never let the fears really go away, wouldn't let Ennis see that maybe the world was changing.  But with Jack removed, maybe he could be easier the next time...if there happens to be a next time...

Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.

kathy
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #198 on: Oct 17, 2006, 05:16 PM »


I do think in the end, Ennis did realize that gender and even death did not stop him from loving Jack.  In a sense, he did sort of transcend himself and his own fears, even though he realized that it was too late to bring that love to fulfillment.

As for love after Jack died, hard to say.  His unspoken "vow" in the end would seem to indicate that he will be faithful to Jack forever.  Death, sex, and gender no longer mattered.

Offline jesseanne21

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #199 on: Oct 17, 2006, 05:20 PM »


I do think in the end, Ennis did realize that gender and even death did not stop him from loving Jack.  In a sense, he did sort of transcend himself and his own fears, even though he realized that it was too late to bring that love to fulfillment.

As for love after Jack died, hard to say.  His unspoken "vow" in the end would seem to indicate that he will be faithful to Jack forever.  Death, sex, and gender no longer mattered.

beautifully stated <^(
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #200 on: Oct 18, 2006, 06:27 AM »
Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.

kathy


No, that can't be Ennis, Kathy, because that man is me. :)


Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #201 on: Oct 18, 2006, 11:12 AM »
I can't help thinking there must be many people like the one Anni P said inspired the story, and not all of them gay. There is so much loneliness in the world.

Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #202 on: Oct 18, 2006, 06:28 PM »
Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.

kathy


No, that can't be Ennis, Kathy, because that man is me. :)


LOL!

Well, then, I'm the old lady in the bar watching the old man who's watching the young men...

kathy
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Offline ksxks

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #203 on: Oct 18, 2006, 06:36 PM »
I can't help thinking there must be many people like the one Anni P said inspired the story, and not all of them gay. There is so much loneliness in the world.

Oh, you're so right.  You just brought tears to my eyes.  If I may say...I quite often feel the despair of loneliness.  Not specifically for myself, although there is that, too...but for everyone, for everyone I know and everyone I don't know, anyone who is lonely.  Life is so tragic, I feel sometimes, a strong and overwhelming feeling.

Even things such as little children, full of joy and heedless to even the concept of "hope" because they don't know there is a need to hope for better (except those children that are starving, abused, etc.)...oh what in the world am I getting into here?  Trying to say, what joy there is in the world -- innocence, nature -- I still see tinged with tragedy.

However...you know what?  Truth is, I actually feel better this past year because of the cameraderie here.  Be it cyber-cameraderie, it is still real and fulfilling and I value all of y'all...

[post quick, don't read, don't edit, don't delete, too revealing]

kathy
« Last Edit: Oct 18, 2006, 09:18 PM by ksxks »
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #204 on: Oct 18, 2006, 07:47 PM »
Unless he's the old man in the bar that Annie P. was watching.

kathy


No, that can't be Ennis, Kathy, because that man is me. :)


LOL!

Well, then, I'm the old lady in the bar watching the old man who's watching the young men...

kathy


Oh! Hello Annie. Great story!   ;D


I would like to believe that once Ennis found the shirts and throught them realized that Jack was in love with him and he was in love with Jack and that he was, in fact, queer, that Ennis tried to find someone else to love. The thought of him being old and alone tears my heart out. Waiting for the day to come when someone will hold you and say they like you and need you in their life is a very painful existance. Too painful for our Ennis who needs to be loved.


Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline chameau

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #205 on: Oct 18, 2006, 08:37 PM »
Quote
I would like to believe that once Ennis found the shirts and throught them realized that Jack was in love with him and he was in love with Jack and that he was, in fact, queer, that Ennis tried to find someone else to love. The thought of him being old and alone tears my heart out. Waiting for the day to come when someone will hold you and say they like you and need you in their life is a very painful existance. Too painful for our Ennis who needs to be loved.

 :\'(

That's very well said patriot1
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Offline welshwitch

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #206 on: Oct 19, 2006, 08:42 AM »
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #207 on: Oct 19, 2006, 08:49 AM »
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.


Amen. But I'd settle for just being liked.


« Last Edit: Oct 19, 2006, 08:56 AM by Patriot1 »
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline monicita

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #208 on: Oct 21, 2006, 02:41 PM »


I do think in the end, Ennis did realize that gender and even death did not stop him from loving Jack.  In a sense, he did sort of transcend himself and his own fears, even though he realized that it was too late to bring that love to fulfillment.

As for love after Jack died, hard to say.  His unspoken "vow" in the end would seem to indicate that he will be faithful to Jack forever.  Death, sex, and gender no longer mattered.

My dear tpe,
I would put it the other way round: It all matters in the end. Remember the short story: There was still something akin to "sex" in Ennis's dreams sometimes. And death mattered too, because he cried in his sleep: I think the last lines of the short story go something like: "Sometimes the sheets were wet, sometimes the pillow". There you have it, in my opinion: It mattered to Ennis, but it mattered in a way he would never have dared acknowledge if Jack had still been alive. What I love about Annie Proulx is that she manages to transcend the everyday, humdrum lives of her characters, while still remaining very much "on the ground", so to speak. Sex matters, death matters, but there is also something beyond that...

monicita
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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #209 on: Oct 22, 2006, 07:49 PM »
Everyone needs to be loved' it's finding the one who's The One that's the problem.


Amen. But I'd settle for just being liked.


*Hugs*  :^^)

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