Topic: was ennis gay ?

[Brokeback_1]

hey hialtshag--love the name by the way lol, on another forum my signature is high altitude luck.

Ennis, I think, cared for Alma. I don't see any sign that he passionately loved her, he certainly never kissed her the way he kissed Jack or was willing to do any of the things he did for 16 years to be with jack---such as sacrifice comfort for his wife and children, vacations with his wife and children, decent jobs. All of which he sacrificed to be with jack.

As for the bedroom scene you and I didn't see the same film lolol--I saw an Ennis with his eyes closed grab  Alma, who had a 'not again' expression on her face, flip her over and 'do quickly what she hated' with the lights off after she mentioned the word lonely. And I thought the lights were off so he could fantasize it was Jack's bubbled buns and not Alma's. He was lonely with Alma, lonely for Jack. That marriage --OT a bit here--died the moment Ennis flew off the steps into Jack's arms, he effectively left her while staying in the same house for the next what, 8 or so years. I never saw anything between those two but some affection, never  love. And after Jack came back I didn't even see that. Yeah, he cared for her. Just no way as much as he cared for Jack.

In that sledding scene? They are 2 kids having fun, growing closer. Ennis tries to rough house with her like he did with Jack and she squeals 'No, stop! ' as he stuffs snow onto her hat. Always felt he was trying to recreate what he had with Jack on that slope in a failed attempt to make ENNIS work.

[Brokeback_1]

Oh, and I can absolutely positively NOT envision the DE taking place with Alma. Like no way.

[manhattangirl]

Was Ennis's sexuality really that ambiguous?  We could go along with it "is he or isn't he" argument in the beginning, but as the years went on  wasn't the struggle he had endured was fear of  his homosexuality and the ramification of the realization of it?

The difference between Jack and Ennis is that Jack had a quiet acceptance of his sexuality whereas Ennis couldn't accept it because of he was raised, and inability of facing the knowledge of his sexuality. Ennis' fear was that of his homosexuality,  and fearing death because of it. 

Wasn't there a set of arbitrary signs that was evident like so much in this film something unsaid but readable?   The Reunion and the all that happened at the motel.  Ennis giving Jack all he could to show how much he missed and needed him, still holding back.   

Some would argue that because unlike Jack, Ennis never went to another man, but is that such surprise when dealing with his fears, his love, need, kept him isolated from even thinking of any other relationships.   Wasn't Cassie a glaring example of this?   Ennis tried to have a "normal" relationship, but was that realistic? 

Is it really that hard to say yeah,  Ennis was gay, or does it take something away from their story?   

[orangetruck]

I rather like this post. I'm actually just headed to bed, but that's ok. I figure what I have to contribute here is pretty simple:
I really consider Ennis gay, and there's really no beating around the bush, ifs, or buts about it. You make a good point about the fear having carved his demeanor sinisterly, orderly, and prematurely. But Ennis is homosexual by the same means that Jack is. They each conceptualize the equations of themselves and homosexuality differently, but they are both gay men. For me, this will never take away from the story.

Thanks for the good topic. 

[tpe]

This topic overlaps with the discussion on the thread relating to Ennis's sexuality.

Part of me says that these 2 topics should be merged.  Let me know what you think, manhattangirl.

Actually, I share your opinion.  I have stated similar reasons in the thread dealing with Ennis's sexuality.  But whatever Ennis's secuality is, there is no doubt that he loved Jack.

[manhattangirl]

This topic overlaps with the discussion on the thread relating to Ennis's sexuality.

Part of me says that these 2 topics should be merged.  Let me know what you think, manhattangirl.

Actually, I share your opinion.  I have stated similar reasons in the thread dealing with Ennis's sexuality.  But whatever Ennis's secuality is, there is no doubt that he loved Jack.

tpe:

If you think this is best, I have no problems with it, I trust your judgement.

[tpe]

tpe:

If you think this is best, I have no problems with it, I trust your judgement.

Thanks, manhattangirl!  I merged your thread with this topic. 

[Tony]

   A long time ago, a wise man said the greatest crisis facing the human race was the failure of the social sciences, or humanities, to keep up
with the physical sciences.  Meaning, we are finding ways to kill and torment each other with new weapons and techniques at an accelerating
pace even as we lag, ever farther behind, in finding out who we are and why we hurt each other.
  Pope Paul VI said before the United Nations-"Jamais la guerre!" ---No more war!  Didn't make a dent.  Simon Weisenthal spent his life reaffirming
the accountability of every evil act.  Hell, if we tracked down every act of torture these days, the courts would collapse.  And Dr. King began
the assault on racism, and yet racism has mutated and is ever reborn.  What's up?  We're stubborn.  We don't like challenging ideas with which
we are comfortable. We ARE lagging behind.
    So to my topic.  On another thread, Lamusica said the issue of Ennis' sexuality has been beaten to death and yet keeps coming up.  I think it
should, as it is central to the tragedy of this film we do love so much.  I ALSO believe, fiercely, that our lack of understanding of our sexual nature
IS a force behind abuse of women, other men, and a great many mysterious evils that baffle us.  We should keep exploring, and Lamusica
encouraged me to try, although I may disappoint her in my approach.

The topic, then, is---can love be so great as to transcend original sexual preferences, and how would that happen?  What terrible needs would
there be to force a person out of their "natural" ways, and into the arms of another of the same gender.  Please note--am reversing the subject
area, to allow broader exploration.  The subject is not whether Ennis was gay or straight (although replies on that are still relevant), but broader-
what could make a person desensitized and go past their basic nature.  And I'd like to know if it would be different for women than for men.
Some of you know I believe Ennis' loneliness was the key factor in expanding his sexuality, but will show every respect for any opinion.

As for the title of the topic-What a Fool Believes...it's from a Dooby Brothers song.  This fool believes BBM has within it, the questions that
can narrow that gap of understanding ourselves and thereby help, if only a little, to reduce the misery the world faces each day.
For me, and my foolish belief that BBM can heal, if only we let it challenge us, not sadden us, this topic may be a huge mistake.
But this fool believes it's worth the risk.  Not Ennis' sexuality, first.  First, his needs.   All of them.  Not just where he ended up sexually, but
what was there before.

[tpe]

 The topic, then, is---can love be so great as to transcend original sexual preferences, and how would that happen?  What terrible needs would
there be to force a person out of their "natural" ways, and into the arms of another of the same gender.  Please note--am reversing the subject
area, to allow broader exploration.  The subject is not whether Ennis was gay or straight (although replies on that are still relevant), but broader-
what could make a person desensitized and go past their basic nature.  And I'd like to know if it would be different for women than for men.
Some of you know I believe Ennis' loneliness was the key factor in expanding his sexuality, but will show every respect for any opinion.

The is question touches on a number of previous discussions.  It is really hard to answer, even in the case of Ennis.  As you noted, part of this is because it goes back to the nature of sexual identity, and the corollary therefore leads to whether or not a person can go against his or her "nature", or is there such a disambiguous "nature" in each of us to begin with.

As I have mentioned before, I believe that Ennis was actually fighting his own true nature, and was being held back by an unnatural society.  The question then to me is therefore not whether he can transcend it; rather, can he suppress it.

I feel that at the heart of Ennis's inner conflict was his inability to accept who he truly was, and not that he found something different from his true nature that he found himself attracted to.  My opinion.

[Tony]

   Tpe, thanks for responding, and I respect your conclusion about Ennis.  But want to try again, on the broader topic.
Some years back, a big scandal on the networks-the gay football team.  Seems the players were hazed by getting them drunk, and naked, and
all oiled up, and then set loose to play a kids game where you place your feet on footprints on a sheet on the floor that causes goofy collisions.
They were filmed, and the film showed sturdy sexual arousal.  Ergo---gay. If you are aroused, you can complete an act.  Dr. Joyce Brothers
calmed the nation down by saying-guys are doggy-dogs, and the players weren't gay.
   So, if a straight guy CAN become aroused, and for whatever reason, moves to completion of an act, is he now...gay?  Bi-sexual?  The shrinks
say....no.
   Next step.  Does completion of an act desensitize the straight male against previous inhibitions?  Would it become easier...the SECOND time?
I'd say, in many cases-yes.  The guy's still straight, not even Bi-sexual, but has been desensitized. I say this because guys in prison become
frequent fliers and then, released, won't go to that activity again.  Straight, but de-sensitized against previous dislike or allergic response.
  Now.  What would happen if lightning hit and a deep loneliness was filled with a friendship love?  And THEN, step 1 and step 2?  Annie may
have slipped up.  Her first description of Ennis' love for Jack was described as a friendship love and zero mention of sex.
   That may or may not have been what happened with Ennis, and I don't believe that can be settled fully and finally.  But could the process
happen?
   It's relevant.  Truman Capote, in writing "In Cold Blood", suggested or hinted part of the rampage of violence came from 2 straight guys who
had a friendship love, unconsummated by sex, and were feeding on that energy....to kill.  And he spent many hours with them, in prison, talking.
  The broader issue then is not whether Ennis was straight or gay (can't be settled), but COULD it happen, and how.  If it CAN happen, of course
that's relevant to Ennis, but unproven.  It's also relevant to the challenge of BBM, my focus...who are we....?  BBM can heal, if we go there, IMHO.

[manhattangirl]

Why is it that Ennis sexual nature has to be one thing, and all of sudden he  was fighting not go over to the "dark side" like he was Luke Skywalker.    Ennis grew to care, than to love, an almost natural progression, and was reached out to by someone who knew the way inside him.  (am I misunderstanding, it wouldn't be the first time).

my 2cents. 

[Tony]

     Manhattangirl, you and I don't see it as his moving into a dark side, but towards freedom, but you are right- HE saw it, if not as the dark
side, but the troubled, unexplained side.  I don't think he was guilty about the sexuality-there's too much progression towards acceptance of
that as the years went on.
    Have always wondered what would have happened if they, separately, stumbled into...a gay bar. I don't think it would be a fan-fic revelation
and all would change-they were too complex.  But I think Jack would have scoped it out, as a sensual person, and felt better than from those
sordid trips to Mexico.  Ennis, I think, might have sat off to himself, both stupefied and brooding, and gone home alone. (And of course, yuk, yuk,
making sure Jack never found the bar).
   MG--I don't think it's just Ennis tormented by his sexuality.  Am gonna go there.  I think, at times, MOST men are.  Straight guys can be
tormented by their exotic fantasies of women, that don't fit their self-image. Straight guys can feel guilty about--straight sex.  And so much the
worse for a straight guy who bumps up against a guy in the shower room in gym class and is aroused, and tormented by that for the rest of
his life, always trying to prove he's straight.  So it isn't just gays who have troubles adjusting, and severe troubles for repressed gays (as you
may see Ennis).  Sorry, MG---at different times, STRAIGHT guys are troubled by their straight desires and "this thing that comes over them"
and makes them so needy of...women.  Sex is a trouble zone all around.  Combine it with love and, well, can go better, can even go worse.
Sorry if that's a shock to straight women, but guys aren't going to tell you everything, so you wouldn't have heard it.

[chameau]

FYI, the topic What a Fool Believes..... has been merged to this one, please keep posting your interesting discussions Brokies. 

[tpe]

Why is it that Ennis sexual nature has to be one thing, and all of sudden he  was fighting not go over to the "dark side" like he was Luke Skywalker.    Ennis grew to care, than to love, an almost natural progression, and was reached out to by someone who knew the way inside him.  (am I misunderstanding, it wouldn't be the first time).

my 2cents. 

It doesn't have to be, of course.  It depends on one's point of view.  Whatever it is, there was a part of it that he feared and tried to reject, IMO -- and that made all the difference.

It is true that Ennis grew to love and to care, but perhaps never really as openly as he would have desired.  In this sense, the progression was really imperfect, because it was predicated by conditions that could not be contradicted -- perhaps artificially.  My claim is that these conditions were unnatural to him, and thereby, it fed his inner anguish.

[manhattangirl]

Look Tony, I not claiming to be an expect on Male Sexuality, or even play one on TV.   I can only go by my gut feelings as far as this story goes.   Your last comment was interesting;

     Manhattangirl, you and I don't see it as his moving into a dark side, but towards freedom, but you are right- HE saw it, if not as the dark
side, but the troubled, unexplained side.  I don't think he was guilty about the sexuality-there's too much progression towards acceptance of
that as the years went on.
    Have always wondered what would have happened if they, separately, stumbled into...a gay bar. I don't think it would be a fan-fic revelation
and all would change-they were too complex.  But I think Jack would have scoped it out, as a sensual person, and felt better than from those
sordid trips to Mexico.  Ennis, I think, might have sat off to himself, both stupefied and brooding, and gone home alone. (And of course, yuk, yuk,
making sure Jack never found the bar).
   MG--I don't think it's just Ennis tormented by his sexuality.  Am gonna go there.  I think, at times, MOST men are.  Straight guys can be
tormented by their exotic fantasies of women, that don't fit their self-image. Straight guys can feel guilty about--straight sex.  And so much the
worse for a straight guy who bumps up against a guy in the shower room in gym class and is aroused, and tormented by that for the rest of
his life, always trying to prove he's straight.  So it isn't just gays who have troubles adjusting, and severe troubles for repressed gays (as you
may see Ennis).  Sorry, MG---at different times, STRAIGHT guys are troubled by their straight desires and "this thing that comes over them"
and makes them so needy of...women.  Sex is a trouble zone all around.  Combine it with love and, well, can go better, can even go worse.
Sorry if that's a shock to straight women, but guys aren't going to tell you everything, so you wouldn't have heard it.

Why then after Alma, and painful episode with Cassie, Ennis need  and only intimate connection was Jack?   Ennis's need for woman in a intimate way, was not required or even wanted, that close bond was made in "63, and was part of him for the rest of his life.

But as a father he held on Alma, Jr., as a son, he bonded with Mrs. Twist, these two other woman in Ennis's life was needed and welcomed.    I don't know if you understand me, or if I even make sense.  But for me,  Ennis never pushed woman out of his life, but the roles they played in his life were indistinctive to his needs, they played a certain role. 


 

[Nikita111]

TPE, for me, if iEnnis is gay, is also a more interesting story.  I cannot imagine the degree of inner pain and struggle he must have endured (BBM shows some).

My heart aches for Ennis  :\'(



Yes, I agree.  The conflict is at the heart of the story.

 :\'( :\'( :\'( It is so touching

[tpe]

 :\'( :\'( :\'( It is so touching

What moves us, ironically, is that it didn't have to be so.  There was so much happiness available to him had he followed his heart, but he was so afraid.

[Tony]

     Hello, everybody--was surprised that my new thread had been merged with this one, as that wasn't the topic I was pursuing.  But it was
probably an act of mercy since my own new thread was disorganized and over-ambitious in breaching new territory.  So, I wondered, was there
anything of remote value to say on this, more limited thread, and maybe so, maybe not.
   It's the topic itself, where I made some unusual discoveries.  On another forum, this topic is active, but related topics have something never
seen on Ennis/Jack---Brokies with tire irons.  It was unbelievable to see the intensity and the clear-who's smarter than whom- combat that
should never be there--ever.
   But, back on this gentler forum, I do recall constantly bumping up against this topic (and, here and there, my own doing some of the bumping).
I KNEW there was a majority/minority split on this subject, but I just didn't know how deep the fault lines ran and how they permeate our whole
take on BBM.  And I now understand, if it's been gentler here, the topic still goes to a basic division in our approach to so very much, and can be
hurtful.  It's here, too.  Just no tire irons.
   WHY should a topic cause major or minor troubles?  As best as I can tell, one factor is the fierce pride the gay community has in this film and
so anything that suggests it isn't absolutely and totally about repressed gay feelings and accepting being gay, seems like a theft.
  Then there's the problem of Ennis never having generic interest in other men, his extreme loneliness, and other factors that will always provide
a legitimate argument that there was much more involved.  And so some of us feel we aren't undermining, we're expanding, and in the process,
helping BBM be a force for all manner of healing.
  But I didn't know.  I didn't know until looking in on another forum, just how deep the divisions run. And I look back at some of my previous posts
and wonder, did I really touch some raw nerves, but people here were too decent to gnaw off one of my legs (as seems to be happening at that
other forum)?  If so, is it really worth it--is the subject too divisive?
   Was not going to post, as that keeps a thread active, but others posted, so I just felt I'd say what I discovered.  We do filter our view of the
film, too much, IMO, from that starting point-was Ennis gay, and I don't know just how much that keeps us apart.  I thought it was a normal
topic, no hurt, and productive, but now I see, it can be hurtful and frustrating.  Brokies with tire irons. That's never been on Ennis/Jack, and
I will do my best to not only appreciate that, but be careful not to give offense.
   May start a thread on Victoria Beckham replacing Cher as an icon for gays.  That would be, as she says..major. 

[tpe]

Tony, I think such divisions are natural, given the ambiguous nature of Ennis's sexuality.  Some people do prefer a continuum, and insist that sexuality does not have to be clear-cut, although for operational purposes, it does seem very clear-cut for most people. 

Given the said ambiguity, I don't think we can ever arrive at a very clear-cut answer.  We only have the story and the movie to go by, leaving so many other things unsaid.  The answer is, in the end, not as important as the question.  As I said before, it reveals more about who we are that who Ennis really was.

[Tony]

     Thomas, am not going to stay on this topic, and for good reasons, but wanted to add a little more to my post above.  Chameau had
rearranged the furniture, more or less, by merging an ungainly thread I had started, with this one and so I go--"Huh?"
     Alls well that ends well, for I made some discoveries.  One I mentioned, was the vitriol in another forum that really shook me up.  So then,
yesterday, I read this topic, all freaking 13 pages of it, and a new discovery---it was one of the best discussions I'd ever seen.  Am still puzzled
as to why the minority opinion (Ennis is straight, or could be) really wasn't the minority opinion.  There's been some drift as people backed off
from earlier opinions.  But was mostly impressed by the civilized discourse, the good will and even entirely new information.
   Might add that I caught you out in suggesting what I have fought for, that in great literature, the characters go past their author and take
on independent existence.  And also found earlier opinions of frequent post-ers that would have supported so much of what I felt could be there.
  Above all,  I saw----good people.  And the subject was so well-explored, I doubt I could ever add to it, on the narrower issue.
So, being relatively new to the internet, and to this forum, will just say---that was a hell of a good job you guys did on this topic, and though
the issue was left unsettled, it was left there, gently.  Now it's up to me to temper my own posts in accordance with this new information and
not assume--you haven't been there before.  It was an unbelievably frank, calm, well-reasoned, and friendly thread.  Well done.  Beautiful.

[trekfan]

all I can say is that Ennis loved Jack,  he might not have said it but he sure showed it in many ways.   So were they both gay or was Ennis gay?   I don't know how to answer that.  It seemed like all he wanted was JACK but he couldn't allow himself to reach out and take what Jack was offering.

When I first came to the fandom I was reading all kinds of ideas as to their sexuality.   One thing that someone said and it has stayed with me (maybe it's cliche or maybe it's just dumb or an over simplification)
But I always liked the term  Jacksexual :D when referring to what Ennis was.

 

[babytammy7]

all I can say is that Ennis loved Jack,  he might not have said it but he sure showed it in many ways.   So were they both gay or was Ennis gay?   I don't know how to answer that.  It seemed like all he wanted was JACK but he couldn't allow himself to reach out and take what Jack was offering.

When I first came to the fandom I was reading all kinds of ideas as to their sexuality.   One thing that someone said and it has stayed with me (maybe it's cliche or maybe it's just dumb or an over simplification)
But I always liked the term  Jacksexual :D when referring to what Ennis was.

  I love it!!! I agree friend!!! 

[manhattangirl]

"I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you",   Ennis had his ideas about Jack.  He apparently had no ambiguous thoughts  as far as Jack was concerned.   He wanted that "boy", and threaten to kill if ever found out what that "boy" did, at the same time putting distance between himself and  Jack. 

Ennis stumbled into love with Jack.   I go back to the very beginning when the two were up in the mountain, and Jack jokingly said to Ennis, "that's the most word you spoke in two weeks", where Ennis replied "that more word I spoke in a year", and this before the FNIT.   How needy or lonely he must have been,  I mean wasn't Alma already in picture, wasn't he going to marry her, how much was she there for him?   

Ennis found something in Jack, that welded itself to Jack, and the physical was a step closer to him.   It's like watching  tug-o-war with Ennis at both ends.  Does this make sense?

[tpe]

     Thomas, am not going to stay on this topic, and for good reasons, but wanted to add a little more to my post above.  Chameau had
rearranged the furniture, more or less, by merging an ungainly thread I had started, with this one and so I go--"Huh?"
     Alls well that ends well, for I made some discoveries.  One I mentioned, was the vitriol in another forum that really shook me up.  So then,
yesterday, I read this topic, all freaking 13 pages of it, and a new discovery---it was one of the best discussions I'd ever seen.  Am still puzzled
as to why the minority opinion (Ennis is straight, or could be) really wasn't the minority opinion.  There's been some drift as people backed off
from earlier opinions.  But was mostly impressed by the civilized discourse, the good will and even entirely new information.
   Might add that I caught you out in suggesting what I have fought for, that in great literature, the characters go past their author and take
on independent existence.  And also found earlier opinions of frequent post-ers that would have supported so much of what I felt could be there.
  Above all,  I saw----good people.  And the subject was so well-explored, I doubt I could ever add to it, on the narrower issue.
So, being relatively new to the internet, and to this forum, will just say---that was a hell of a good job you guys did on this topic, and though
the issue was left unsettled, it was left there, gently.  Now it's up to me to temper my own posts in accordance with this new information and
not assume--you haven't been there before.  It was an unbelievably frank, calm, well-reasoned, and friendly thread.  Well done.  Beautiful.

Thanks Tony.  I would like to think people here are level-headed and more open about the topic at hand.  But certainly no need to stop the discussion, just because it had gone on for some time.  And certainly don't feel that you have to silence your own views.  As much as we want everyone to respect each other's views, we also don't want people to not voice out their own opinions.

I agree, the characters have taken lives of their own outside the original story and film.  It's in the nature of things, I guess.

[tpe]

all I can say is that Ennis loved Jack,  he might not have said it but he sure showed it in many ways.   So were they both gay or was Ennis gay?   I don't know how to answer that.  It seemed like all he wanted was JACK but he couldn't allow himself to reach out and take what Jack was offering.

When I first came to the fandom I was reading all kinds of ideas as to their sexuality.   One thing that someone said and it has stayed with me (maybe it's cliche or maybe it's just dumb or an over simplification)
But I always liked the term  Jacksexual :D when referring to what Ennis was.

 

It has always been a point of discussion as to whether Ennis was attracted to any other man than Jack.  Given his repressed nature, we shall never know.  AS far as we can tell, it may have only been Jack.

I should mention that Annie Proulx herself had said that one of the starting points for her story was to see in real life an elderly ranch hand/cowboy look longingly at a group of young cowboys.  Her implication is that this was the image of the elder Ennis.  So at least to Proulx, Ennis was probably attracted to other men.

[tpe]

Ennis found something in Jack, that welded itself to Jack, and the physical was a step closer to him.   It's like watching  tug-o-war with Ennis at both ends.  Does this make sense?

It does.  For me, Ennis was very spartan in his habits, even though his need for Jack ran deep.  He araely expressed himself, and he very seldom acted on impulse or the need for gratification.  But when he did, it seemed specific to Jack.  The attraction was very much in spite of himself.  So we do see the conflicting tendencies in his character.

[jackster]

Ennis found something in Jack, that welded itself to Jack, and the physical was a step closer to him. It's like watching tug-o-war with Ennis at both ends. Does this make sense?

Makes a lot 'o sense to me MHG. It was more than just being homosexual, Jack was his other half without whom he was not whole. Ennis discovered this other side of himself on the mountain at 19 and discovered later that he wouldn't be complete again without it. Sex was a part of it, but only a part of the equation IMHO.

This may be where the discussion can get heated as Tony points out. For many gay men their sexuality defines a big part of who they are, for others it is less so. So "gay" is important, very important for some, for others, who are also gay, it less important. Neither is better or more meaningful than the other, but it can be difficult to discuss this issue without seeming to demean the other point of view. In the case of our boys they seem to fall on opposite sides of this coin (maybe).

That term "Jacksexual" I think is great, as far as it goes, describing the sexual aspect. But to me it's really more like "Jackcentric". Jack was IT, period. Lover, companion, buddy, partner, friend, he was Ennis's link to the outside world from within.

[tpe]

Makes a lot 'o sense to me MHG. It was more than just being homosexual, Jack was his other half without whom he was not whole. Ennis discovered this other side of himself on the mountain at 19 and discovered later that he wouldn't be complete again without it. Sex was a part of it, but only a part of the equation IMHO.

This may be where the discussion can get heated as Tony points out. For many gay men their sexuality defines a big part of who they are, for others it is less so. So "gay" is important, very important for some, for others, who are also gay, it less important. Neither is better or more meaningful than the other, but it can be difficult to discuss this issue without seeming to demean the other point of view. In the case of our boys they seem to fall on opposite sides of this coin (maybe).

That term "Jacksexual" I think is great, as far as it goes, describing the sexual aspect. But to me it's really more like "Jackcentric". Jack was IT, period. Lover, companion, buddy, partner, friend, he was Ennis's link to the outside world from within.

I have always considered gayness as much more than just sexual attraction.  But I agree when you said: "For many gay men their sexuality defines a big part of who they are, for others it is less so. "
 

[jackster]

I have always considered gayness as much more than just sexual attraction. 
 

OK, now you've got me puzzled. Maybe OT here, but like what    ?

Just curious. Are you meaning that Ennis may be homosexual, but not "gay"?

[tpe]

OK, now you've got me puzzled. Maybe OT here, but like what    ?

Just curious. Are you meaning that Ennis may be homosexual, but not "gay"?

Hello Jackster.  For the record, I believe Ennis was gay.  You can't be gay and not be homosexual, IMO.

When I say that it is not just sexual attraction, I didn't say it wasn't sexual attraction.  The attraction part is a given.  But gayness has a cultural dimension, as much as it has a distinct aesthetic.  For example, I believe that gays have a unique way of appreciating masculinity, similar to but in some ways different from how a straight woman would appreciate it.  Some people would think of it as a mixing of feminine and masculine sensibilities.  I guess there is a grain of truth to that.