Author Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain  (Read 363779 times)

Offline Tony

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #240 on: Dec 19, 2007, 07:47 PM »
    Oh, gosh-I wonder if this will stir up a hornet's nest.  Seems to me, that though Jack clearly was the more romantic of the two, Ennis
was the more emotional.
   I keep coming back to the breaking camp, always.  It was Ennis who grieved on the hill, whereas Jack SEEMED to be nonchalant about it all-
no big deal.  Maybe he stole the shirt after the fight because that was HIS first real clue Ennis loved him (enough to go into a rage).  Even so,
it's Ennis grieving, Ennis going into a rage, and Ennis later retching.
  We do see Jack weeping on the way to Mexico and we do know Ennis was the love of his life, but as far as emotional outbursts, it's Ennis.
Even at the last meeting- Ennis cracking up, under pressure from Jack.
  And what a sequence of scenes---in the Dozy Embrace, it's like Jack's drained-he can't fight for their love anymore, he can't go for a part-time
love.  And what I have to call the transformation scene, shortly thereafter, where first he's looking dreamily away, as Ennis goes to load the
horses, and the harsh transformation as Ennis leaves.  He'd had enough.  One face of love fades into one of extreme resentment.
   Jack-romantic, a dreamer.  Ennis full of repressed love, repressed emotions (and no-not the gay issue-the LOVE issue).  And yet, it was
probably Jack's romanticism that provoked the love, the tender attempt to wash the bruise after the bear incident, the gentle words said
when relaxing by streams, these tripped Ennis' wires.  And Ennis' outbursts tripped Jack's wires.  Two forms of signalling love, but not the
native language.  Romantic words from Ennis-these might have gotten Jack to find some better scheme.  Outburst of raw, volcanic emotion
(not resentment) from Jack might have moved Ennis to understand, before the discovery of the shirts.
  They spoke two different languages of love.  One, romantic, the other violently emotional.  It was enough to CAUSE love, but not enough
to CONVINCE the other.  I really believe neither one knew how deeply the other loved.  Maybe we guys are just....dumb.  But it didn't help,
the romantic vs. the emotional.  Each could hear the other language, but couldn't speak it.
  This is, maybe putting it all under a microscope, to note the difference, but IMO, it's there.  And lacking the same language, one can never
be fully sure.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #241 on: Dec 20, 2007, 12:55 AM »
    Oh, gosh-I wonder if this will stir up a hornet's nest.  Seems to me, that though
Jack clearly was the more romantic of the two, Ennis was the more emotional.
   I keep coming back to the breaking camp, always.  It was Ennis who grieved on the hill, whereas Jack SEEMED to be nonchalant about it all-
no big deal.  Maybe he stole the shirt after the fight because that was HIS first real clue Ennis loved him (enough to go into a rage).  Even so,
it's Ennis grieving, Ennis going into a rage, and Ennis later retching.
  We do see Jack weeping on the way to Mexico and we do know Ennis was the love of his life, but as far as emotional outbursts, it's Ennis.
Even at the last meeting- Ennis cracking up, under pressure from Jack.
  And what a sequence of scenes---in the Dozy Embrace, it's like Jack's drained-he can't fight for their love anymore, he can't go for a part-time
love.  And what I have to call the transformation scene, shortly thereafter, where first he's looking dreamily away, as Ennis goes to load the
horses, and the harsh transformation as Ennis leaves.  He'd had enough.  One face of love fades into one of extreme resentment.
   Jack-romantic, a dreamer.  Ennis full of repressed love, repressed emotions (and no-not the gay issue-the LOVE issue).  And yet, it was
probably Jack's romanticism that provoked the love, the tender attempt to wash the bruise after the bear incident, the gentle words said
when relaxing by streams, these tripped Ennis' wires.  And Ennis' outbursts tripped Jack's wires. (  I agree with this, Jack seems surprised by Ennis' passion, both in SNIT, and reunion ) Two forms of signalling love, but not the
native language.  Romantic words from Ennis-these might have gotten Jack to find some better scheme.  Outburst of raw, volcanic emotion
(not resentment) from Jack might have moved Ennis to understand, before the discovery of the shirts.

  They spoke two different languages of love.  One, romantic, the other violently emotional.  It was enough to CAUSE love, but not enough
to CONVINCE the other.  I really believe neither one knew how deeply the other loved.  Maybe we guys are just....dumb.  But it didn't help,
the romantic vs. the emotional.  Each could hear the other language, but couldn't speak it.
  This is, maybe putting it all under a microscope, to note the difference, but IMO, it's there.  And lacking the same language, one can never
be fully sure.

Amazing, Tony. I knew I can count on you to bring new ideas to the table. I see what you are saying about Jack being the romantic dreamer, and Ennis being the devoted emotional lover. I agree with this. As far as the language of love being two different dialect for the guys, I don't know enough about this to really comment. I will watch the movie again this weekend, and pay closer attention to their interactions. It would certainly explain their difficulty in communication.

Then again, I am not sure I understand the romantic language of love myself, either. :c) Thanks for leading me into new territories yet again. It's always an adventure with you.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #242 on: Dec 20, 2007, 07:43 AM »
Thanks lance and everyone for your responses, comments, and ideas.

I do somehow feel that Tony's comment has more than a grain of truth:

Jack clearly was the more romantic of the two, Ennis was the more emotional.

I know we can't generalize too much, but I do think that this touches on the truth.  Another way of saying this is that Jack was more emotive while Ennis was more emotional.  That is, Jack was more demonstrative, whereas Ennis may react very strongly.




Offline ayasha

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #243 on: Dec 20, 2007, 11:48 AM »
Guys, I'd say I agree 100% with the ideas you've put in these 3 last posts, I guess Tony's found the right words  ^f^

Yesterday while I read your messages, I told you have made me see Ennis slightly different. It was about Ennis' passion. He's a man of restrained feelings (introspected, I mean..) and that makes him like a 'pressure cooker' of love, fear...If you open the lid suddenly, you've got a explosion.

I'm more of an Ennis type, maybe that's why I appreciate and love Jack's qualities  <^( and perhaps I was missing or underestimating Ennis passion. I've got so many things to comment with you about this, but I must go out now. When I come back home I'll come straight here to keep reading you  :ghug: Thank you guys
"And then the day came,
when the risk
to remain tight
in a bud
was more painful
than the risk
it took to blossom"

Anaïs Nin

Offline Tony

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #244 on: Dec 20, 2007, 11:59 AM »
     Whenever we go really deeper into BBM, I sometimes remember Lightning Flat's thread where she wondered if we didn't over-do it and was
all this a healthy love or an obsession.  A very good question, but I've always felt a great work of art is identifiable by the endless interest
and constant re-working.  So have never felt bad about delving so deeply into the various aspects of BBM and will go ahead and add some more
today.  On the subject of communication between Ennis and Jack (which MPJ had once said, was awful).  
  Am thinking in terms of what I call- "translations", or, what we really mean when we say something.  Here are some examples:

At a singles bar, a guy says: you really have beautiful eyes. Translation: How quick can we get to my apartment for sex?

She goes: You're kind of interesting...  Translation: Do you have a steady job, are you a jerk, and is this ANOTHER mistake?

Have a nice day!  Translation-am very busy, next customer please......

Real Estate agent- You have SUCH a beautiful house!  Translation- I wonder how quick I can flip this deal for a commission?

   So, maybe you get my point.  A huge amount of what we say isn't necessarily false (because we know the translations), but isn't
really reliable.  And was any of this social falseness, to which we are so accustomed, it's second nature, was any of it a trouble to our two lovers?
  For example-How did Ennis see the offer of getting a ranch together?  If any % of that was seen as a business deal between 2 friends, even
a slight %, everything is altered.
  Just about every statement between 2 people, then, is subject to these "translations" and we can get them wrong.  Can anybody think of
key, central statements between the two, where this would apply?
  Well, probably a dead end, as I may not have found anything.  Do know, in an unrelated area, that it's very possible, from my earlier post
on Jack-romantic, Ennis-emotional, that it is very plausible Jack did not know the depth of Ennis' love until the fight on BBM, and he did not
have time enough to re-translate all previous statements and behavior, and so-stole the shirt.
  Am in the area of communication between the two and it just may be too boring or too difficult. But have given it a go.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #245 on: Dec 20, 2007, 02:38 PM »
Tony, you might be interested in this thread.

Double Meanings in BBM Lines.

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4413.msg132769#msg132769

It has expanded recently to double meanings in other areas too - symbols, settings, etc. I think it kind of ties in with what you were talking about here. :)
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #246 on: Dec 21, 2007, 08:03 AM »
Guys, I'd say I agree 100% with the ideas you've put in these 3 last posts, I guess Tony's found the right words  ^f^

Yesterday while I read your messages, I told you have made me see Ennis slightly different. It was about Ennis' passion. He's a man of restrained feelings (introspected, I mean..) and that makes him like a 'pressure cooker' of love, fear...If you open the lid suddenly, you've got a explosion.

I'm more of an Ennis type, maybe that's why I appreciate and love Jack's qualities  <^( and perhaps I was missing or underestimating Ennis passion. I've got so many things to comment with you about this, but I must go out now. When I come back home I'll come straight here to keep reading you  :ghug: Thank you guys

Ennis's brand of reticence is certainly a mark of very strong inhibitions -- the "pressure cooker" image is very apt, in that it is not the absence of feeling that is at fault here; rather, it is the fear of leeting them out.

I'm more of an Ennis type, maybe that's why I appreciate and love Jack's qualities...   ayashae, you echo here something that I said long ago.  I am gratified that it also did cross your mind.


Offline ragtimecowboy

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #247 on: Dec 30, 2007, 09:32 PM »
  Ennis and Jack both defined themselves as straight to allow themselves to deny the obvious and continue to have sex as a continuation of a "one shot thing". Fear of love and fear of not getting it in return was in full play at this point in time. As the summer continued, their love deepened and by not acknowledging it they could allow it to grow unfettered. Reality was a great equalizer and weighed in heavilly when they were told to bring the sheep down early. The fear of never being loved again reared its ugly head and sent Ennis into such turmoil he was nearly paralyzed as it loomed up squarely in his mind. To acknowledge he loved Jack was going to break their tacit agreement with each other and to risk losing the all the love he had gained and felt. And even more frightening was the possibility not get any it  of returned. For Jack making light of it was a temporary way of denial and sidestepping it for the moment. When he lassoed Ennis it was to get him moving because of the time constraints and also to engage Ennis in some reassuring physical contact possibly even a little loving. The anger that welled up in both of them was arose out of this fear for they knew they were not going to be able to make love again possibly forever.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #248 on: Jan 02, 2008, 09:53 AM »
  Ennis and Jack both defined themselves as straight to allow themselves to deny the obvious and continue to have sex as a continuation of a "one shot thing". Fear of love and fear of not getting it in return was in full play at this point in time. As the summer continued, their love deepened and by not acknowledging it they could allow it to grow unfettered. Reality was a great equalizer and weighed in heavilly when they were told to bring the sheep down early. The fear of never being loved again reared its ugly head and sent Ennis into such turmoil he was nearly paralyzed as it loomed up squarely in his mind. To acknowledge he loved Jack was going to break their tacit agreement with each other and to risk losing the all the love he had gained and felt. And even more frightening was the possibility not get any it  of returned. For Jack making light of it was a temporary way of denial and sidestepping it for the moment. When he lassoed Ennis it was to get him moving because of the time constraints and also to engage Ennis in some reassuring physical contact possibly even a little loving. The anger that welled up in both of them was arose out of this fear for they knew they were not going to be able to make love again possibly forever.

I do tend to agree that a large part of this was a symptom of denial -- of the dear of facing up to what was really between the two of them.  I feel that the denial was very much a part of what drove each of them to anger.  For Ennis, it was perhaps anger (or fear, or both) of himself -- for allowing himself to fall so deeply in love.  For Jack, it was anger (or fear, or both) of being unable to move on -- for allowing himself to fester because Ennis would not budge.




Offline Tony

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #249 on: Jan 14, 2008, 10:54 AM »
     Well, I guess if a topic lingers in your mind long enough, you might come to different conclusions, and I had been headed there, some time
back.
    It was on the matter of credibility as a factor in fear of love, meaning, you just can't be sure exactly what the real feelings are of the other.
It's kind of gloomy, and I don't want to linger there, but deception and falseness are so much a part of the human condition that we just take
it for granted.  The film shows a lot of deception, from Aguirre's deception of the park service, to the affair being kept hidden from the two
wives.  As I said in an earlier post- Have a nice day!, really means--Next customer, please....
   In that context-lack of credibility, we could find most of the problems of the world, but certainly, in how Ennis and Jack could not fully
believe the depth of the others love.
   Am thinking of three particular scenes, to flesh this out.  Ennis erupting into rage about all those things he didn't know, but might come to
know...shows clearly he always considered that, although for him, it was only Jack, he had had some sense that, sexually, the reverse was not
true.  And if Jack had been fooling around sexually, with others, then the fullness of love wasn't there, from his point of view.  It would seem
Ennis tied  sex to love, whereas Jack saw the sex as only part of the love.
  Then the scene where Jack sees Ennis going off, that last time, and his face is no longer dreamy, but harsh.  Some part of that would easily
be that Ennis was no longer credible-the love was not deep enough to make changes.  And the very telling scene where Ennis accepts, quietly,
as Jack's father describes the "other" guy that was to come up and settle in to Lightning Flat.  It's as if he'd always supposed that would be
something he'd find out some day.
   So, whatever fear of love, or fear of risking telling how deeply you loved, there then is that terrible part of our human condition- so much
deceit, often so casually, credibility always would be a problem.  Both men knew of a world where sex didn't mean eternal love, and both men
knew....people can't always be fully trusted.  That's where I've ended up, myself, on seeing the tragedy.  Not so much failure to communicate,
as the difficulty in believing, and therefore, fear of saying more, doing more, to make it work.  Those 3 scenes, are for me, evidence of lack
of credibility being a fundamental problem.

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #250 on: Jan 15, 2008, 07:54 AM »

***

   So, whatever fear of love, or fear of risking telling how deeply you loved, there then is that terrible part of our human condition- so much
deceit, often so casually, credibility always would be a problem
.  Both men knew of a world where sex didn't mean eternal love, and both men
knew....people can't always be fully trusted.  That's where I've ended up, myself, on seeing the tragedy.  Not so much failure to communicate,
as the difficulty in believing, and therefore, fear of saying more, doing more, to make it work.  Those 3 scenes, are for me, evidence of lack
of credibility being a fundamental problem.

Very well said, Tony.  Even the fear to love and be loved is in itself an artifact of the human condition.  In a way, it is a part of self-deception -- the ability to deny what one actually feels about oneself and another person.

And I do point out that the collapse of credibility is very much a by-product of the fear to love.  The fear breeds distrust, and ultimately, disillusionment, as in Jack's parting look at a departing Ennis.    These are all interconnected, and the human condition (the mythical "fall") that is a part of us all understands that credibility can only go so far as how the other is willing to trust.  It is a matter of faith -- either lost, or found.


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #251 on: Jan 15, 2008, 01:19 PM »
Very well said, guys. O0

I always try to take a more positive approach to what Jack and Ennis had, both because I'm a romantic at heart, and because it hurts too much to do otherwise for me.

While acknowledging that all of what has just been said holds a great deal of water, I would add that, as with the positive moments in their relationship, these realizations about each other, and the disappointing feelings that accompany them, were most likely transient. Ugh, I'm not saying this right. Bear with me. What I mean to say is that all of those feelings, the good ones and the bad ones, the joys and the heartaches, the understandings and the miscommunications, the connections and the distances between them, made up the relationship that they had. Much like the structure of their lives - short weeks together living one life, in between long stretches of time living separate lives - their relationship was full of moments of clarity and connectedness, offset by their doubts, fears, and disappointments. So in these moments that we're discussing, those fears they had come to the surface. I think they are always inside each of them somewhere, but are not always acknowledged, or even felt. Just as the moments of affection, and gratitude for having each other, are real, but are not always at the surface of their thoughts or feelings. I guess I'm trying to say is that these were two very fragmented men, who could not move forward to a place of unity or freedom because of those fears that ruled them, but at the same time were tied together by a bond that each thought was worth the price they paid to maintain it. And that it was the strength of those times that they felt good about, and embraced the positive feelings in, that allowed them to endure those times when they were engulfed in fear and doubt.

And this is why I think I cling to Annie Proulx's words at the end of the confrontation scene in the original short story:

"...they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

In other words, this is how their relationship had always been and would always be, for as long as it lasted. Even at the end, imo, neither was willing to let go of what they had, in spite of their fears  or any other emotion that came to light during their fight. It was just a brief airing of what they'd both known all along.

They were, in fact, defined, both by the fears they were able to overcome to be together at all, and by those that they couldn't overcome, in order to be together completely.

I hope that made some kind of sense in the end. ??? If not, I blame the cold medication. ::)
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline ayasha

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #252 on: Jan 15, 2008, 05:08 PM »
Thanks for bumping this thread again guys, I'm coming back here asap!  O0 ^f^
"And then the day came,
when the risk
to remain tight
in a bud
was more painful
than the risk
it took to blossom"

Anaïs Nin

Offline Tony

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #253 on: Jan 15, 2008, 06:00 PM »
    Your post made plenty of sense, FlowerChild, and you mostly seem to say they worked with what they had, what life had thrown at them,
as best as they could.
    And something a little further comes to mind-they never savaged each other brutally, as can happen, even in love.  The fight on the mountain
doesn't count (and it was their only physical fight), since both were used to rough ways.  They never spited each other.  Ennis never really
resented that Jack had done better, financially.  There was no intent to hurt.  No undermining.  Something in your post triggered that memory-
they wanted happiness for the other, and, if we are honest, two people in love can slip into a destructive mode, deliberately.  If nothing else,
they got through those many years.....free of what is so natural to the rest of us.  One helluva good kind of love, where you never deliberately
hurt the other.  And they at least had that.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #254 on: Jan 15, 2008, 06:17 PM »
Oh wow. I wasn't even (consciously) thinking about that while I wrote that particular post, but you're so right. Whatever else their fears compelled them to do, or not do, intent to inflinct harm was never part of it. And as you said, people can slip into a destructive mode, but they never did. For the most part, they kept their hurt to themselves, internalized it instead of turning it on each other, saving the best of themselves for the other.

One helluva good kind of love indeed. :\'(  <^(

Nice post, Tony.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #255 on: Jan 16, 2008, 07:49 AM »
I also agree that neither of them threw away everything (i.e., between them) even after the last confrontation.   But I have a tendency to look at the dark as much as the light, and would say that in the status quo, the fears still loomed large, even to the very end.

I don't know why I dwell on this more instead of the positive -- that they still somehow held on to their love even if to some (Jack?) hope may have died.    I guess it is because so long as fear tints that love, there was no easy way out for either of them, as the end of the movie showed...


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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #256 on: Jan 16, 2008, 08:26 AM »
I understand what you're saying tpe.   I think in the final confrontation when Jack said to Ennis, "so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything is built on that".  To me, he said that more out of fear that this is all they will  have.   That sense of wanting, the wanting of more, and not getting it was frustrating and in a way frightening to him, for the dozy embrace was something he clung to, and settled for. 

Just my opinion.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #257 on: Jan 16, 2008, 09:04 AM »
I agree with your opinion M.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #258 on: Jan 16, 2008, 10:00 AM »
I also agree.   To me, he said that more out of fear that this is all they will  have -- wonderful point.  I must admit that I had related this more with frustration, but what you say makes perfect sense.  After all, Jack's frustration is driven by a fear of never be able to see the dream fulfilled, and the thought of seeking fulfillment beyond Ennis was simply unthinkable till the very end.   

I guess I tend to concentrate on Ennis's fear to love a bit more, not realizing that fear also drove Jack in his desire to want more -- the fear of failure and unfulfilled promises -- or shadows of a promise, if we can call it that.  In this light, the remembrance of the Dozy Embrace can be though of as a way of coming to terms with what didn't materialize.  I guess fear ends where some form of contentment begins.


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #259 on: Jan 16, 2008, 10:37 AM »
I think I tend to concentrate on Ennis's fears more too, probably because they are more obvious, if that's the right way to describe it.

As to:

"After all, Jack's frustration is driven by a fear of never be able to see the dream fulfilled, and the thought of seeking fulfillment beyond Ennis was simply unthinkable till the very end."

Agreed, except that I still don't think, even in the end, that this had changed for him. I just can't.  :-\\

Stubborn girl.  ::) 
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

babytammy7

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #260 on: Jan 16, 2008, 01:53 PM »
I just can't too Barb!!!

Offline Tony

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #261 on: Jan 16, 2008, 02:36 PM »
    Manhattangirl, you brought up the part most of us shy away from---what was going on there, after that last time together, and the
confrontation.  We know Jack seemed to have found someone else to bring to Lightning Flat, although his dad says that fell through, too, so,
whatever person he turned to, that, too, according to his dad, didn't work out.
  We don't want to believe Jack gave up on Ennis, and the other posts reflect that.  But you are right, something happened, and maybe since
you, yourself, brought up the Dozy Embrace, that might be where we can find an answer.
   The Dozy Embrace very much had Jack going into a dream world, a sleepy enchantment, so different from all the liveliness we had seen in him
before.  I want to believe that that was when he internalized the love for Ennis, made it forever sacred, and yet, against the apparent impossibility
of its ever being fulfilled, separated it from real life, which allowed him to look elsewhere.
  Another way of saying this is that, in that scene, in those moments, Jack found the only solution available, the emergence of two worlds, one
where he carried within an enchanted, immortal love, that wasn't realizable, and the other world, where he was practical and looked for a
day-to-day partner.  In that sense, he was never unfaithful.
  Can I get away with this, as a solution?  Please let me.   That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him.  The Dozy Embrace
would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something.  A change of some kind.  Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way,
we can always know he stayed true.

manhattangirl

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #262 on: Jan 16, 2008, 09:01 PM »
 The dozy embrace could  be Jack's surrendering.  He laid down who he was for that moment of happiness, he laid down who he was so it'll be easier for Ennis to merge with  him at that moment. So, he just let it be.

Does this make sense to you? 
« Last Edit: Jan 16, 2008, 09:11 PM by manhattangirl »

Offline BBBOY

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #263 on: Jan 16, 2008, 09:44 PM »
   
  Can I get away with this, as a solution?  Please let me.   That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him.  The Dozy Embrace
would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something.  A change of some kind.  Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way,
we can always know he stayed true.

Great post Tony!  :clap:
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline Tony

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #264 on: Jan 16, 2008, 10:42 PM »
   Thanks, BBBoy---am really trying to let us all find the best reading possible to Jack's last months.
Manhattangirl, that makes sense to me partly, but am still wanting to think and believe, there was more there, as I tried to suggest above.

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #265 on: Jan 16, 2008, 10:51 PM »
   Thanks, BBBoy---am really trying to let us all find the best reading possible to Jack's last months.
Manhattangirl, that makes sense to me partly, but am still wanting to think and believe, there was more there, as I tried to suggest above.

Well I think what you and MG girl say makes sense. The look on Jack's face as Ennis drove away after the confrontation at the lake is not one of giving up I think. Which is a testement to Jake's acting. It is enigmatic, the turmoil of the past 20 years is not resolved. The love is still there but the reality of life is also. Jack tried to move on but the all consuming love for Ennis remains. Jack died for /with that I believe. I could discuss this endlessly, but easier face to face than online. LOL I don't have the patience for this media sometimes.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

manhattangirl

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #266 on: Jan 17, 2008, 05:59 AM »
I know how BBoy feels, all I want to say or express can't squeeze through my fingers on the keyboard sometimes. 

I guess is how we see it.  Jack was faithful, and always true, his love for Ennis was real, not a dream, we had proof  of how deeply he felt, how he saw the love as we find out later.  What his fear was realizing that his "unfaithfulness" to Ennis would be his life, and was his reality. 
 
The dozy embrace for me is when Jack first realized he was in love with Ennis, and in remembering that moment of realiazation Jack understood that was as close he ever be to his lover, and accepted it.  Maybe that why his story ended there at that moment of understanding.

Is this making sense?    
« Last Edit: Jan 17, 2008, 07:03 AM by manhattangirl »

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #267 on: Jan 17, 2008, 07:47 AM »
The dozy embrace could  be Jack's surrendering.  He laid down who he was for that moment of happiness, he laid down who he was so it'll be easier for Ennis to merge with  him at that moment. So, he just let it be.

Does this make sense to you? 

It is an act of surrender, IMO.  He acknowledgers Ennis fears -- i.e., Ennis's inability to even look at his face during the embrace.  But he is willing to forgo even this.  "Let be, let be."  I think that was his final answer to the question of fear.  He was willing to accept it, and live with it.

manhattangirl

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #268 on: Jan 17, 2008, 08:09 AM »
It is an act of surrender, IMO.  He acknowledgers Ennis fears -- i.e., Ennis's inability to even look at his face during the embrace.  But he is willing to forgo even this.  "Let be, let be."  I think that was his final answer to the question of fear.  He was willing to accept it, and live with it.

That's how I feel also.

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Re: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #269 on: Jan 17, 2008, 01:48 PM »
   Well, this is messy for me.  First, had no real intent to revive this thread, was just bumbling around.  Also, it's a topic that has a slight tilt
towards sadness. Finally, I do not trust my computer, lately, and so am uneasy about being in a discussion, and, whap!, I can't post.
  Even so, MG, your saying the Dozy Embrace was when Jack finally knew the depth of his love and surrendered to it, was the first time you and
I were ever so far apart in what we saw.  Have learned a lot in this forum, and one thing was to find out I often had missed seeing something
important that you and others did see, so will not suppose myself correct in differing.  But will say what that difference is.
  What I saw, in the Dozy Embrace, on Jack's side, was exhaustion, resignation, and sadness, without rejecting the love.  He felt he could never
get Ennis to understand he needed full companionship.  That scene fades into the Dreamy Gaze, watching Ennis driving off with the horses,
and the Dreamy Gaze has the same elements of the Dozy Embrace plus---understanding of Ennis, and an amazing sweetness and tenderness
which is where I feel he internalized the love, maybe even  separated it from his sexual needs, and.......gave up.  Not the love. The hope of
getting Ennis to ever change.  Then we see the Dreamy Gaze jump to the Bitter Stare, as Ennis is leaving, again, ending that last meeting.
  So, for me, that is when Jack internalized the love, as his ideal, but moved to the practical reality of finding a day-to-day companion.
For me, there is no way this was when he finally knew of his love.  He knew of his love all along.  This was where he had to admit it wasn't
working out. Big difference there.
  As I said, I've learned it might not be a matter of who's got it right, but more like, what did each of us see, and so each version is equally valid.
But that's what I saw.  Dozy Embrace-exhaustion. Dreamy Gaze-I will love you forever. Bitter Stare-I've got to find a companion other than
Ennis, even if it is loveless.
  Many might agree on this.  Few would agree with me that Ennis would change.  He was exhausted, too.  A few more melt-downs, and I believe
he would have found his way home---to living with Jack.
  Again, my computer is not always reliable, so I should avoid posting and running, but had to say the above, as those are critical scenes.