Jane austen claimed for women the quality of "loving longest, when hope or even existence is gone". It's quite possible, as tpe says, to part from somone but go onh loving them from a distance - I think Jack would have done this consciously, but Ennis unconsciouly or at least unwillingly.
I agree with you,tpe,Ennis made himself suffer,and of course made Jack suffer also.In any sense,he was the responsible for the sensation of progressive break that their relationship began to undergo(I´m not speaking about the deepness of their love).Nevertheless,I don´t think Jack was going to quite Ennis completely;he tried only to live his life and give him other hopes,other experiences he much time before he saw he wasn´t going to have with his lover.
Well,it´s a little "heavy" to say that perhaps death sort of saved Jack,but in any sense it set him free from his suffering,that if we become a little shabby,"was like a death in spite of being alive".And yes,the relationship lasted a long time bearing in mind that everything was against them,but this was the greatness of their feelings,wasn´t it ?.
I'd like to think that, had Jack lived, one day in the far distant future, with Lureen long passed away, Jack and ENnis might have spent their golden years together in a home for brokendown cowboys somewhere out in the wilderness. :8
Seriously, though, I think they would have spent their final days together somehow, in some way. Maybe they would have moved into Jack's folk's house in LF, or somewhere tucked away into nowhere.
I'm just a romantic at heart, and can never imagine that they would have said final good-byes to one another until death separated them. Just MHO.
I think their relationship would have lasted had society been different. But I think love survives and even bears fruit in the harshest conditions. Their love was special because it was pretty much impossible, under the given circumstances. To have such a moment, if only briefly, does not mar the beauty. Such is the beauty of a desert flower.yes if curcumstances and society were different i do believe they would of stayed together because they did love each other very much.jack was willing to go to ennis at every opportunity.and even give up his son for him but ennis had a fear of being found out wich at the end of the day was the only thing keeping them apart fear on ennis,s part .would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis i am not sure about that.
In that anyone who you've loved becomes a part of you, they would always keep the other one within, whether or not they went on meeting, I think.
[/ quote]
yes that is true you keep them with you always even if they not with you.for whatever reason
yes if curcumstances and society were different i do believe they would of stayed together because they did love each other very much.jack was willing to go to ennis at every opportunity.and even give up his son for him but ennis had a fear of being found out wich at the end of the day was the only thing keeping them apart fear on ennis,s part .would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis i am not sure about that.
The relationship seemed to have endured even as Jack ceased to be entirely faithful to Ennis. Well, I guess, the core of him remained faithful -- his love for Ennis remained intact even as he sought release from more transient affairs.i was thinking would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis if they made their realationship permanent when they met up after 4 years and got a ranch somewere like jack wanted.he loved ennis very much that never was in doubt .his trip to mexico and if he did have any thing going with randall wich i really hope he didnt were just ways of trying to fill the emptiness .i like to think if they were together jack would of been fulfilled but i am not sure.
But would that core have remained intact had he moved on with Randall, I wonder? I beleiev so, but this is only how I feel...
Hello folks.
This is my first post here at ennisjack.com, and what a great thread this has been so far.
Personally, I think that if Jack had lived, Pine Creek would have been one serious come to Jesus meeting. I think Ennis would have been forced into a decision one way or the other.
Something that nags at me from time to time is this: what if Ennis had found the courage and made up his mind to give life with Jack a chance BEFORE he got the postcard stamped "deceased?" I know that is terribly tragic. Tom Harris wrote a one-shot where this actually happens.
Milo
i was thinking would jack have stayed faithfull to ennis if they made their realationship permanent when they met up after 4 years and got a ranch somewere like jack wanted.he loved ennis very much that never was in doubt .his trip to mexico and if he did have any thing going with randall wich i really hope he didnt were just ways of trying to fill the emptiness .i like to think if they were together jack would of been fulfilled but i am not sure.
I think so. It was because he did not have Ennis that made Jack wander. There is of course always a possibility of betrayal in any relationship. Something tells me that waiting nearly 20 years for someone speaks not just of a strong desire and faith. Remember that in the end, Jack gave up only because he felt that to pursue his dream was only hurting Ennis -- at least, this was my view of it.most annoying part we will never know for sure.
most annoying part we will never know for sure.
First of all,welcome,Milo and I hope you enjoy this forum.Tpe,I really think that a life together would have fullfilled Jack completely;we all agree that his trips to Mexico were a kind of relief, a way to fill the emptiness that Ennis lack of comitment made him feel.Jack only gave up when he saw this at the end and realised that his dream was not only hurting Ennis,but also and above all,hurting himself badly.(Maybe was not a real hurt the reiterative negation of living together in so many ways during so many years?).I don´t believe Jack broke the relationship,in spite of his flirt with Randall,but Ennis.
I agree with you in the sense that neither Jack´s death,nor even if he had quited Ennis,had destroyed the love they shared.But I really think that ,very specially the doubts and fears Ennis felt along his life,but also that Jack didn´t take the initiative in putting an ultimatum to his lover,had hurt the relationship at the point,not of destroying it,but to force Jack to look for a life of his own,seeing that it has no future while Ennis hadn´t had a comitment, a real and whole comitment about living together.As I said in another post,perhaps they had met themselves several years after and renew their relationship in an environment of a greater tolerance.At least, it´s nice to imagine it.
Yes,but perhaps the love didn´t die with Jack´s death because it idealized him somehow in Ennis´mind?The problem and the topic I began is if the relationship would have endured in such a difficult circumstances they have to overcome and with themselves being so differently complementaries or complementarily differents as they were.Perhaps it would be not so idealistic as we´ve imagined thanks to our romantic souls and our attraction to our boys;but something inside me tells me that love had endured forever,because I told before that you can love a person but can´t live with this one.Human mind is more complex than a Chinese hyeroglyphic¡
Again I agree with your appreciation,tpe :clap: But perhaps the profound regret isn´t born from a previous cowardice? Or how we could call to prefer during 20 years suffering and denying your own feelings to go through the danger,but also the shame,of living with the one you love?.I don´t know.
Love, if it's the real thing, lasts a lifetime, IMO. A relationship can disintegrate for all sorts of reasons but love may and can survive that break-up. That doesn't preclude the understanding that the relationship doesn't work and isn't going to.
#$#I really think that if jack had lived to recive the postcard from ennis they would have lived out many happy golden years together. If you notice the expression on ennis face when he is sending the card and his body language he is happy and at peace with himself I think he finally got too the point to let go of his fear and too let himself love freely what is so heartbreaking is that it was too late.yes ,I totally think that if jack had lived they would still be together although how or if ennis would have explained his love for jack to his daughters I dont know.
Perhaps Cassie gave Ennis a lesson about how to live your love without knowing it,because his face when she´s gone crying and his when Alma Jr. tells him:-"Yes,daddy,he loves me",make us think that he´s applying these feelings and words to his relationship with Jack,doesn´t it ?.But I don´t think he was ready for a change with Cassie,because he always knew their relationship wasn´t going to arrive too far away,since he didn´t want to make her unhappy,as he did,indirectly or not,with Alma.What we know for sure is that,in spite of their last argument,in which they said all what they must have said long before,Ennis wanted to see Jack again by taking the iniciative with an invitation card-that never arrived to Jack-.This means something,IMO.
I don't know if I can "coming back" this old thread into life,but here I am¡.I've sometimes thought if the love Jack and Ennis felt for each other wasn't in certain measure extolled for two reasons-and I'm not speaking about this love didn't exist...-:
1st.:The distance and the impossibility of seeing each other more often.We all know that not seeing a person we love is longing for them,and this longing increases this person's figure in our mind and heart.They spent half their life having a great need of seeing each other-even if both of them showed in different ways...-and almost never getting it.It's logical that this produced an increasing in the feelings,and then,a extolling of these,because they couldn't live it as soon as they wanted and needed.,with all its consequences-included the erosion-.
2nd.:The memories of their first summer in BBM.I know for my own experience that very often you remember the place and time you've been particularilly happy as real in current time.And that,even if you're by your loved person side,if the circumstances have changed-and changed for bad-you hold on to these memories more than it's advisable.Sometimes you adapt these memories to your real and present life without realising that neither you,nor the other person and,above all,the environment are the same than in these happy times.You always see the other as he/she was in your private BBM,when where're a collaboration in the duties,a companionship,an union that a living together weren't going to make similar.Because these times never were going to be the same again;they weren't alone in the mountain,the environment around them was against them,and so on.
MHO. :)
From the fist point, you would say that continuous and closer proximity would have possibly frayed the relationship, and that distance kept their clashes in abeyance? There is a grain of truth to this, especially as far as Ennis was concerned.
Their continuous haggling over whether or not they move into closer proximity with each other looked more like an isssue for Ennis, no? I wonder if he would have become reconciled to things had they moved closer to each other, or would it bring his inner conflicts to a critical point -- a point that may destroy their relationship?
~),but I don't understand what you mean by "kept their clashes in abeyance",although I imagine its meaning...I wasn't saying they didn't love each other and that all was a kind of illusion,a memory of the old good times,no way...I was only saying that both their keeping away from each other and the memories of their first times together in BBM were two factors that could have exalted their feelings.Sometimes we long for another person and this longing makes our feelings greater,for we remember how this person was-and how he/she could have been in our imagination-more than how this person is now-and how he/she would be if was living with us or,at least,closer to us-.Another very important point,maybe the most important of all,would be that they were able to overcome the fear of being in the middle of all the suspicion glances-as I say in another thread-and the impact it could have in their daily life,specially in Ennis case.I don't know if this makes sense...
By that phrase, I didn't mean to suggest that they were somehow incompatible with each other or that they didn't love each other. By that phrase, I meant that distance allowed them not to get into each other's nerves, assuming that Ennis would never give in to Jack's dream of a life together. Had jack seen Ennis more frequently, the constant push and pull as to sharing a life together would have probably created a lot of tension. The distance between them was in a sense healthy, even though it simply delayed the inevitable confrontation. I hope this makes more sense..
Yes,Thomas,it makes a lot of sense for me;it was only that sometimes I don't understand the meaning of some phrases,even I do for the context...I can't speak English so well as to have a very rich vocabulary and sometimes I'm a mess... *o)
i think your english is very good myprivatejack
~),but I don't understand what you mean by "kept their clashes in abeyance",although I imagine its meaning...I wasn't saying they didn't love each other and that all was a kind of illusion,a memory of the old good times,no way...I was only saying that both their keeping away from each other and the memories of their first times together in BBM were two factors that could have exalted their feelings.Sometimes we long for another person and this longing makes our feelings greater,for we remember how this person was-and how he/she could have been in our imagination-more than how this person is now-and how he/she would be if was living with us or,at least,closer to us-.Another very important point,maybe the most important of all,would be that they were able to overcome the fear of being in the middle of all the suspicion glances-as I say in another thread-and the impact it could have in their daily life,specially in Ennis case.I don't know if this makes sense...
Yes,Thomas,it makes a lot of sense for me;it was only that sometimes I don't understand the meaning of some phrases,even I do for the context...I can't speak English so well as to have a very rich vocabulary and sometimes I'm a mess... *o)
For me where're two reasons for this healthy distance,as you call it; it avoided indeed that "the main question" was posed more frequently and,even,that their differences in seeing life as same-sex couple were too evident.Without forgetting the natural wearing down of sharing a life,of course,but this is another story...And in second place,it allowed that in the distance they often remembered only the good sides of their relationship;the more you're longing for someone,the more you need to see him/her and the more you loved them as a result.At the distance,love grows somehow.And,I repite,BBM memories were a way to exalting their love,´cause sometimes we remember happy past times more than living present ones that aren't so much happy.IMO.
You guys both make good points. MPJ, I agree that distance often makes the heart yearn more for the other person, and makes the yearner more prone to imagining the other has qualities that maybe he really doesn't have. But Thomas also makes a good point when he says that, had they lived together or closer to one another, and seen each other more often, they might have argued or been at odds with one another more often, too --familiarity breeds contempt. Both adages seem to work here, and I think they're both valid.
You guys both make good points. MPJ, I agree that distance often makes the heart yearn more for the other person, and makes the yearner more prone to imagining the other has qualities that maybe he really doesn't have. But Thomas also makes a good point when he says that, had they lived together or closer to one another, and seen each other more often, they might have argued or been at odds with one another more often, too --familiarity breeds contempt. Both adages seem to work here, and I think they're both valid.
Yes, the "main question" was certainly something they didn't have to face because they were appart most of the time. then again, it was because of this that Jack's frustration kept getting worse, and Ennis became more and more complacent.
But as you said, distance also increases love -- making people think back fondly of when they were together.
Hence, distance in this case is a two-edged sword, no? It was a way of avoiding certain things, even as it increased their fondness for each other during the long separations.
just looking through this topic and i noticed there are many factors people have mentioned that made jack and ennis's relationship hard, but im glad to say most people seem to beleive that despite the hardships they would have stayed together. i think a love of strong as theres would have lasted infinately if jack hadn't been killed im pretty sure they would have been together always and who knows maybe they would have took up on jacks dream of a ranch when times got moderner.
hope that maid sense sometimes its not very clear what im saying lol.
maybe i suppose its just another one of those things that is open to interpretation
It makes a lot of sense,Matthew, at least for me.But sometimes life is not as easy as we would like,and it's clear that Ennis and Jack had many difficulties in their relationship.And that maybe the love could continue,but the relationship didn't.
maybe i suppose its just another one of those things that is open to interpretation
It makes a lot of sense,Matthew, at least for me.But sometimes life is not as easy as we would like,and it's clear that Ennis and Jack had many difficulties in their relationship.And that maybe the love could continue,but the relationship didn't.
Again, a very good distinction made between the love and the relationship.
And as Zankou noted, this is all open to interpretation...
Yes,and there're so many questions in BBM open to almost as many interpretations as viewers it can have...What it's clear is that,sometimes,living together means several walls to crash against-letting aside love and happiness to share life-;and it's worst still if the main wall is oneself,as in this case Ennis was.
I don't know what would have happend with them, but I'd like to think that they stayed together forever and that they could have a sweet life, but I feel that it was up to Ennis if they could stay together or not. I think Jack was ready to leave him in that last "fight" they had.... :(
I think so,Emelie.Or at least,Jack had arrived to a situation he couldn't keep on managing.It could have been the end,or maybe,it could have be a kind of "ultimatum" to Ennis;as you say,it was up to him if they could stay together or not.I think it was the situation they must have lived several years ago,if not for Jake's fear to push Ennis against the ropes-do you say so?-,to force him too much to deciding something he wasn't prepared to.MHO.
I don't know what would have happend with them, but I'd like to think that they stayed together forever and that they could have a sweet life, but I feel that it was up to Ennis if they could stay together or not. I think Jack was ready to leave him in that last "fight" they had.... :(
I somehow have the feeling that had Ennis taken the leap, the relationship would certainly have endured.
I completely agree with you,Thomas.But the solution was in Ennis hands,more than in Jack´s or in the ensemble of both.And there was the real problem...
Jack was I think part of the solution, but he would not stand in the way of its fulfillment. As you said, the problem was that the other half was in Ennis's hands, and even if the balance between the opposing forces was maintained, it wore them out as time passed.
But not only Ennis was a problem to find this solution,but also Jack...I mean that he wasn't willing to "frighten" Ennis by making him take a decision far before he was prepared to,and that was a rather good decision during the first years(even innmediately after the divorce,because it was too soon to adapt himself to a new life when he had hardly adapted to another one,as single man...).But after that,Jack must bear in mind that his own marriage was breaking down,that he felt himself as undervalued in his own home and that living in his own ranch-with or without Ennis...-would be a way of self-esteem and self-confirmation as a man,able to manage his own life...In this situation,it would be easy for him take the money his father-in-law offered to "dissappear"-as he confessed to Ennis in the motel scene-,for having at last his own ranch.Sooner or later,it would be easier that his lover could have join him,maybe as a ranch hand first,in a more "hidden" way to be together.Not always Jack was so open and fighter as we have thought about him; I believe he also had his fears and didn't find the way to overcome them.
I suspect that Jack must have thought that frightening Ennis more would anly bring him more pain -- and make him more conflicted. Alas, perhaps he should have realized that this might have been necessary, to get Ennis see things in perspective. His desire not to hurt Ennis proved his inevitable undoing...
But not only Ennis was a problem to find this solution,but also Jack...I mean that he wasn't willing to "frighten" Ennis by making him take a decision far before he was prepared to,and that was a rather good decision during the first years(even innmediately after the divorce,because it was too soon to adapt himself to a new life when he had hardly adapted to another one,as single man...).But after that,Jack must bear in mind that his own marriage was breaking down,that he felt himself as undervalued in his own home and that living in his own ranch-with or without Ennis...-would be a way of self-esteem and self-confirmation as a man,able to manage his own life...In this situation,it would be easy for him take the money his father-in-law offered to "dissappear"-as he confessed to Ennis in the motel scene-,for having at last his own ranch.Sooner or later,it would be easier that his lover could have join him,maybe as a ranch hand first,in a more "hidden" way to be together.Not always Jack was so open and fighter as we have thought about him; I believe he also had his fears and didn't find the way to overcome them.
I agree with this. I think that Jack was so caught up in his fear of *spooking* Ennis, that he missed opportunities to came at the situation from a different angle. though he was doing everything right, it wasn't working for him. Had he taken the money from LD and started his own ranch, I don't feel that Ennis would have condemned Jack to too many lonely nights before he came calling in some fashion. It was another option for Jack to pursue. Back off and let Ennis come to him, instead of him always pursuing Ennis. Either way, the natural order of all things human would have taken place. Jack's fear of loosing Ennis completely was too strong to overcome. But he had options . MO.
Absolutley, Ennis's will was never *tested*by Jack for his benefit and his alone. His need for Ennis, overshadowed his own needs and wants. Forgetting what Ennis wants and what Ennis will do if.... made him forget how to get what he wanted so desperatly. A ranch of his own and Ennis, though maybe not living with him at first would still be a constant in his life. A baby step by baby step process where eventually everybody wins.. Ennis only maintained his status in the affair because he was allowed to. It is a matter of self pride at times., as you said, Jack taking his life into his own hands. Only then could he pick and choose his own destiny.i agree with alot of your theorectical thought here, but you are right it was what it was and i suppose better to have loved and lost then never truely loved at all.
Yes Ennis did wear the cloak of stoicism and he was never going to shed it without a strong prompt/alternative or catylist that packed a solid punch. I think it could go both ways too. Either Ennis will withdraw further,( Jack's fear) or he will come forward even more. It all depends on how Jack chose to play the cards dealt to him.I felt at times, Ennis really wanted to believe, but just needed a good solid reason to overcome his fears. Something he could see and know for sure , that nobody was gonna be hurt or harmed. If Ennis could see it coming in time, he could fight and defend. He will never go in ,sight unseen. Basically, Ennis is an independent loner. Perhaps an independent Jack would've gone alot further in *testing* Ennis's resolve. It's a possibility imo and if it so happened I think the relationship would endure with growth. Anyway, it was what it was. :( :ghug:2 cents.
And avoiding people from suffering for a while,you often get a greater suffering during more time...That's a great mistake on Jack's side,who also should have seen things in perspective,IMO,and force them somehow when the occasion was right.
Absolutley, Ennis's will was never *tested*by Jack for his benefit and his alone. His need for Ennis, overshadowed his own needs and wants. Forgetting what Ennis wants and what Ennis will do if.... made him forget how to get what he wanted so desperatly. A ranch of his own and Ennis, though maybe not living with him at first would still be a constant in his life. A baby step by baby step process where eventually everybody wins.. Ennis only maintained his status in the affair because he was allowed to. It is a matter of self pride at times., as you said, Jack taking his life into his own hands. Only then could he pick and choose his own destiny.
Yes Ennis did wear the cloak of stoicism and he was never going to shed it without a strong prompt/alternative or catylist that packed a solid punch. I think it could go both ways too. Either Ennis will withdraw further,( Jack's fear) or he will come forward even more. It all depends on how Jack chose to play the cards dealt to him.I felt at times, Ennis really wanted to believe, but just needed a good solid reason to overcome his fears. Something he could see and know for sure , that nobody was gonna be hurt or harmed. If Ennis could see it coming in time, he could fight and defend. He will never go in ,sight unseen. Basically, Ennis is an independent loner. Perhaps an independent Jack would've gone alot further in *testing* Ennis's resolve. It's a possibility imo and if it so happened I think the relationship would endure with growth. Anyway, it was what it was. :( :ghug:2 cents.
I think maybe the love would have laster forever but the relationship would not. Jack was talking to his parent to settle in the range with an other man than Ennis when he died. It is mentioned during the confrontation between Ennis and Jack's parents.
Maybe Ennis would have opened his eyes and would have gone to live with Jack, but it is likely that he would still have been haunted by the vision of the dead gay farmer his father shown him when he was young.
the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO
the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO
the love would deffinatly last forever i have no doubt about it, i also think if the relationship ever ended it would not be long before they realised they could not survive without their relationship jack and ennis are like to halfs of a whole like ying and yang opposites that couldnt exist without each other or with out a small part of each other at there inner core. jack was the dreamer ennis was the logical fearful on but this is the way they worked and each one had a little bit of the others personality deep down, to me their love was so strong a break in the relationship would soon be mended once they realised they could not live without each other i just cannot ever see ennis and jack living apart still loving each other and not having a relationship, it would be only a matter of time before they were running back to each other.IMO
Hello zankou. So if I understand you correctly, you still think that the end of their relationshop spelled doom for both of them -- even if their love were to endure...well in a way this is what i meant but the main point i was trying to get accross was if they broke up im sure they would get back together sfter realising they couldnt live with out each other but i suppose what you said about them being doomed if the relationship ended is true to my words because if they broke up and never got back together i think their lives would be full of regret but in my personal opinion if the relationship ever ended it wouldnt be long before they patched up and got back together.
Somehow, I think there is a grain of truth to this, if this is indeed what you mean.
well in a way this is what i meant but the main point i was trying to get accross was if they broke up im sure they would get back together sfter realising they couldnt live with out each other but i suppose what you said about them being doomed if the relationship ended is true to my words because if they broke up and never got back together i think their lives would be full of regret but in my personal opinion if the relationship ever ended it wouldnt be long before they patched up and got back together.
Trying to move on after Brokback was an exercise in futility. They tried this with Lureen and Alma. Did'nt work.
Yes, I have to agree with you. Every diversion proved a dead end. There is no reason to think that Randall would not have ended up the same way...hmmmmm intresting :s)
Of course imo Randall would be more of a threat to the relationship than the women. It then becomes a matter of safety and the male ego. The ball would definitly be in Jack's court. What he does with it could be a matter of life and death for both Jack and Ennis. Just a thought.I agree,aintfoolin; Randall,or any other man who could have an special relationship with any of them,would be a more serious threat than the women.As a matter of fact,they had married to accomplish a duty that society imposed to be "a real man",what society hoped of them...But another man in between not always meant a more probable relationship,more according to their innest feelings; but also,and above all,a greatest "step" to them to do.And once done,more difficult to break because they should have the same struggle.I mean that going out with Cassie,f.e.,was-as Pink Floyd said...-"another brick in the wall" in their perfect man building;but, going out with another man,would be repeating these same fears,mistakes and problems one more time...And if you're willing to pass for all this again,it necessarily means to go deepest into it,no?.
There love would endure forever. They couldn't be together, but since they had true love, it trascended time. They knew this from their first summer on Brokeback Mountain in 1963. They knew the bond between them was unbreakable...and wherever they went, their heart were always with each other. Time and distance meant nothing...their love endured. Just look at the scene of the reunion kiss. It's obvious that there hadn't been a day that had gone by in those four years that they hadn't thought of each other and wished they were together.
maybe i am being naive but i dont think ennis and jack would ever stop there meetingsi dont think they ever could i know it is common beleif here to beleive that the love would endure but the relation ship would end and their meeting cease but in my mind this couldnt be if this started to happen and they never arranged a time together for a while, i think both ennis and jack would be miserable and would realise they needed to be with each other.
as for randle well i dont think anymore of randle then i think of the mexcan prostitute just a make shift replacement jack can pretend is ennis until he next gets to see ennis. i know i probably sound repetative but i cannot imagine a life for jack or ennis that is not revolving around the other i mean even in the month on end they didnt see each other for, IMO their motivating force was the knowledge they were going to see each other soon.
It is really hard to say. Like you, I would like to think that they would never had stood the test of not seeing each other forever. But whatever the answer, we should be comforted by the fact that their love was there to stay -- even after the mortal death of one and the living death of the other.
mmmm... im sure after when ennis would die they would be together forever no judgement no pain just each other and their love, and i dont think anyone can stop that not randall not anybody.
I wonder sometimes if Ennis longed for death, after Jack had passed on...
i think on some lever he did but also i dont think he would go as far to commit suicide or anything i mean he still had somethings in his life he cared for his daughters for example i think for them he would live his life fully knowing it was only a matter of time before he and jack were reunited.
True, maybe his love for his daughters kept him alive. Certainly his love for Jack also endured. But I wonder whether Ennis was largely dead to the world -- as implied by his isolation even from his family...well i have mentioned before some were i beleive ennis and jack are like the whole ying yang theory neither exisiting without the the other so when jake dide IMO ennis also partially died and only death will cause them to live again, if you understand my meaning both are only dead until they are together again so in otherwords when ennis dies and they are reunited.
I wonder sometimes if Ennis longed for death, after Jack had passed on...
I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.
I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.
beautifully said athena0204,
I agree, He loved his daughters too much to seriously consider suicide. Too much against his nature.I feel he just made a vow to himself to redeem himself in the eyes of Jack's loving memory whenever the opportunity presented itself. Attending his girl's wedding or re-visiting Jack's parents may have been good examples of that. Speculation, but maybe...just sayin.
well i have mentioned before some were i beleive ennis and jack are like the whole ying yang theory neither exisiting without the the other so when jake dide IMO ennis also partially died and only death will cause them to live again, if you understand my meaning both are only dead until they are together again so in otherwords when ennis dies and they are reunited.
I do believe that he did think of dying sometimes...but I agree that he wouldn't have actually killed himself, because Jack had taught him there was so much to live for, and Ennis had his daughters and his memories of Jack, so he would hold on for a while in this life. And I completely agree with Zankou, after Jack's death, Ennis did spend the rest of his life hating himself for not listening to Jack, and for ever letting Jack out of his sight in the first place in the summer of '63. But despite the regret and sorrow he felt he over that, he held on in this life, living each day the best he could, because he knew he would see Jack again in the next life. There was a much better place where they would be forever young and happy together, just Ennis and Jack and their true love, no ignorant and oppressive society, no cruelties of this world, no other people getting in the way, no pain, no sorrow, just the two of them together forever. It was that dream of "going home" that Ennis held onto, that in death he would find the life he and Jack always deserved to have but couldn't have here in this world.
beautifully said athena0204,
I agree, He loved his daughters too much to seriously consider suicide. Too much against his nature.I feel he just made a vow to himself to redeem himself in the eyes of Jack's loving memory whenever the opportunity presented itself. Attending his girl's wedding or re-visiting Jack's parents may have been good examples of that. Speculation, but maybe...just sayin.
I agree in everything you've said,aintfoolin.I'm sure he had thought sometimes in dying because life hadn't have a meaning for him in the beginning.But he wasn't going to take his own life consciously because I see that keep on living was for him a kind of penitence; paying for his faults just being and feeling himself alone...And as you say,redeeming himself learning from these same faults to change his behaviour's patterns onwards; this is something that can be implicit in his statement "Jack,I swear..." IMO.The two examples you've put are only the beginning of this "new" Ennis somehow.
I think I understand, although it is not clear to me sometimes if Ennis believed we would see Jack again in another life. The swearing in the end would not probably mean much unless he believed that Jack would hear him, no? So perhaps he did.yes i think i have mentioned once in another thread ennis saying jack i swear indicates that he beleives jack is around to hear him.
These last posts, about Ennis' frame of mind at the end, caused me to look a little closer. The SS ends with Ennis seemingly lost, and
battered by feverish dreams of Jack, to the point his mental health seems crippled.
But the movie shows a different version, covering a lot of territory. We see Ennis putting up numbers on his mailbox, and almost seeming
to have gotten on with his life, and no sign of depression. And he is happy to see his daughter. But then, some sense of being lost and alone-
"If you don't got nothing, you don't need nothing". And yet, some decision, some response to his daughter's love, to chuck it all and go to her
wedding. And then, she's gone, and we find he has kept the shirts, there to see, every single day, and they are the treasure that keeps him going.
They were not hidden away, but a daily part of his life.
It seems then, that he had come to terms with no real happiness ever being possible without Jack, but stubbornly getting along with
supporting himself and living through, to the end, sort of limping through life. The relationship----permanent.
The posts suggesting he never would have said "Jack, ....I swear..." unless he felt he was, in some way heard, go a long, long way into
whether he had any hope they would ever meet again. He kept up his life, yes, but he never left Jack, and saw no reason to....move on.
He took Jack with him, and we are left to wonder what hopes he may have had of what could be past the lives we all live.
Dear Athena--- I agree. Maybe Ennis had no formal religious belief, but he had a sense, a hope, of there being something more. Otherwise,
why bother? There is plenty of room there to suppose Ennis did believe, in his own way, they would meet again.
I think both realized that there was something spiritual in their desire for each other. I think it was this (and not the physical attraction per se) that made the relationship endure.
hmm i agree when i look at ennis and jack i barely see the physical for just the soul and how the souls loved sure physicality was probably a factor for them but deffinatly not on the level of the way their souls loved each other.
Which is why I love one of their last scenes together -- where they are shown sleeping inside a tent before the final confrontation. This is the closest thwey ever got to the dream of domesticity. It hints at how they could have grown old together in their love.
Which is why I love one of their last scenes together -- where they are shown sleeping inside a tent before the final confrontation. This is the closest thwey ever got to the dream of domesticity. It hints at how they could have grown old together in their love.I love this short scene too.Yes,it's the most similar to this sweet life together,Jack's dream of a daily life by Ennis side.And it's so with something so normal as sharing the same bed and waking up together in the morning...It shows clearly that their love is not based only in sexual attraction,but,being so great,it's transferring the borders of any label we could put.
And I think I said it elsewhere: that embrace while sleeping inside the tent is a bookend to the DE. It is a symbol that their love -- for all their fears, frustrations, and imperfections -- was to endure.
I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.
It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.
hmm thats pretty beautiful
I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.
It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.
I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.
It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.
beautiful... really,
i just hope in the after life they ould both be free young and happy
Same here! I think in the next life is where they found that happiness and freedom this world denied them. Forever young, free, happy. No restrictions, no fear, just sunshine and being together always. :)i agree except from the sunshine part maybe they need some hailstones to get them in that tent ;)
i agree except from the sunshine part maybe they need some hailstones to get them in that tent ;)
Oh yeah, I meant metaphorical sunshine. Sure they'd have different kinds of weather, rain, sun, snow, hail, etc. As long as the were always together and happy. What I meant by "sunshine" is no worries, no problems, no restrictions, no fear, etc...endless happiness and love. :)yer i knew i was just joking :P
I think after the parting by the lake they might had Jack lived met less frequently, or even not at all; wouldn't have made any difference to what they felt about each other or what they knew they'd had.
It may also be, paradoxically, easier for Ennis to love Jack once he's dead; no problem with being seen together and found out, no conflicting demands of emotion and society's expectations, and for Ennis Jack will never grow old - the shirts hark back to that first summer, and in Ennis's mind perhaps re-create the young Jack he fell in love with.
IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...
IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...
The tragedy was that they could have viewed their love as a liberating force, rather than as a trap that they could and couldn't live without. But can we blame them? Perhaps not. In many ways, they were drawn to each other in spite of themselves...Yes,but I'd rather make more specific that ,while Ennis was drawn to Jack in spite of himself,this one kept on being drawn to his lover in spite of Ennis...
IMO,Ennis and Jack had arrived to a point in which their relationship was felt as in that U2 song I can't live with or without you....And specially-and curiously-in Jack's case;and I say curiously because he had been who had put more of himself in this relationship,not only who had proved and showed more his feelings.The only relief I can have is,as we've spoken about some times,that Ennis reaction after their(last) confrontation made him realise what he was loosing and making Jack lose;perhaps if destiny hadn't been so cruel,their ways would have been together at the end,as it usually happens when a strong slap on your face makes you awake from your routinary dream.But we'll never know what would have happenned in November's reunion...
Yes,but I'd rather make more specific that ,while Ennis was drawn to Jack in spite of himself,this one kept on being drawn to his lover in spite of Ennis...
Good point.
I also felt that when the years passed, and Jack saw things going nowhere, I felt that he continued to love Ennis in spite of all this. And this surely must have created some inner conflict within Jack. THis is what I would have meant when I imply that he loved Ennis in spite of himself -- that he probably hated seeing his dream of a sweet life delayed year after year, and he perhaps hated himself for not pushing harder, or for not making it happen.
This is heartbreaking Thomas, but you're right.
Yes,but I'd rather make more specific that ,while Ennis was drawn to Jack in spite of himself,this one kept on being drawn to his lover in spite of Ennis...
Good point.You're right as always,Thomas. :clap: There was a lot of "in spite of" their story,unluckily...It' s true what you say about how Jack probably hated himself for keep on loving Ennis in that situation and for not being able to put him against the ropes much before the final confrontation.In spite of himself,then,but also in spite of Ennis way of being,who was this wall his deepest feelings and wishes crashed against one time and another.And Ennis,well,Ennis¡; he kept on loving Jack clearly in spite of himself,also of his way of being with fears,denials,renounces,etc.Yes,too many "in spite of" to,as you say,get on for so very long time...
I also felt that when the years passed, and Jack saw things going nowhere, I felt that he continued to love Ennis in spite of all this. And this surely must have created some inner conflict within Jack. THis is what I would have meant when I imply that he loved Ennis in spite of himself -- that he probably hated seeing his dream of a sweet life delayed year after year, and he perhaps hated himself for not pushing harder, or for not making it happen.
Thanks Tammy. IMO, it was a miracle that they got on for so very long, given how each of them didn't exactly get the full inner resolution (in the case of Ennis) or satisfaction (in the case of Jack) they desired.
You're right as always,Thomas. :clap: There was a lot of "in spite of" their story,unluckily...It' s true what you say about how Jack probably hated himself for keep on loving Ennis in that situation and for not being able to put him against the ropes much before the final confrontation.In spite of himself,then,but also in spite of Ennis way of being,who was this wall his deepest feelings and wishes crashed against one time and another.And Ennis,well,Ennis¡; he kept on loving Jack clearly in spite of himself,also of his way of being with fears,denials,renounces,etc.Yes,too many "in spite of" to,as you say,get on for so very long time...
yes this is very true... :-\\ i guess the strength of their love and the special bond they shared helped
In a sense, their love was stronger than either of them.
yes it was as being described in the "sexual links in SNIT and other BBM sexual scenes" at the end of the topic, their love was like this thing that bound them together, and so if jack hadnt have died even if they hadnt have got that ranch together and carried on trying to fit in with society, they would still not have lost that bond and would probably not had the strength to break free from the love that had bound them. It would always have been with them forever i think :)
It is also for this that I believe that even if Jack had tried to settle down with someone else, their relationship would not have gone away. I think Jack would have only discovered that there was simply no replacement. Gyllenhaal's comments seemed to have implied a finality to Jack's possible moving on, but I think that it would only could have served as a confimation for Jack that there would be no other.yes i dont think if jack ever ended what he had with ennis he could ahve a seriouse relationship with anyone else
It is also for this that I believe that even if Jack had tried to settle down with someone else, their relationship would not have gone away. I think Jack would have only discovered that there was simply no replacement. Gyllenhaal's comments seemed to have implied a finality to Jack's possible moving on, but I think that it would only could have served as a confimation for Jack that there would be no other.
Agree Thomas, and also I think he had showed in November.i dont have a doubt in my mind about this with every fibre of my being i beleive jack would hav met with ennis in november.
Wonderful posts! I believe that they would have continued the relationship because their love could never die. We see the brokenness in Ennis when he collapses in Jacks arms when Jack even mentions the thought of "quitting you". Another glimpse is at the truck stop when he's barely eating and breaking in front of Cassie. He knows that only Jack can make him complete. I also agree, however, that it was much easier for Ennis to love Jack once he was dead. I tend to think that Jack would not have settled for Randall or anyone else. Ennis would remain alone, possibly as pennance and to honor Jack's love. IMO
I have been wonderfing if Jack would ahve showed up in November just to announce that he was already with someone else. He knew that Ennis would have been dangerouslyu angry by then, but perhaps this was part of Jack's plan to force Ennis's hand.
Then again, I wonder whether Jack would have showed without telling Ennis that he had moved in with another man.
The possibilities are tantalizing...
I think Jack would have taken the logical route ( and less dangerous one) and showed up without telling Ennis he had moved in with Randall..if that's what Jack chose to do. I have my doubts still, but I don't think Ennis planned on this confrontation getting as much out of hand as it did. Never saw Jack on the defensive this way. Jack had always let it be Ennis's way. This time, he does'nt back off. Does not allow Ennis to be complacent once again. Ennis had to know that this was not turning out to be just another regualar *fishing trip*Jack has summed up his pov of their their whole love affair in more than a few words . Angry, jealousy, frustration along with talk of actually quitting the relationship from Jack marked the meeting. I feel Jack gave Ennis alot to think about when he got home. Jack's tone, and the way he put it all into perspective showed Ennis another side of him.
I do believe Jack would've showed just because of the friendship as well as his love and concern for Ennis's future with him or ...maybe without him. Like you said , Jack could've "forced Ennis's hand" and mentioned Randall in the picture using it as leverage, , but why would he..... before he learned what Ennis had to say? No one knows for sure the effect Jack's words had on Ennis. Ennis was placed in the position, either walk away, or take a chance on Jack's case. Either way this status quo business was kaput imo.
Some time passed before Ennis got the postcard about Jack's death. , but he was was one who sent it. He was the one who took the initiative this time to find Jack, and invite him to Pine Creek. I feel Ennis had something to say to Jack that would sway this thing one way or the other. Question remains.... what was it? We'll never know.
Interesting, aintfoolin. And would you think that Jack would keep it that way? If he and Randall had a ranch in Texas, then perhaps he could have kept the secret from Ennis indefinitely. But at LF, I wonder... Still, Ennis rarely went out of Riverton, except perhaps during the round-up or for work. I doubt that he would have ended up in LF on his own, in any case. So perhaps Jack could have kept everything secret for some time...
Still, people are bound to talk -- with such an arrangement with Jack and Randall. Perhaps Ennis would get wind of it inevitably...
And what about Randall? I mean, Jack and him spent several years together, like the screenplay says, so I think that maybe Jack told Randall about Ennis at some point......maybe when he was angry with Ennis or so sad... I think Randall and he became friends, so maybe Jack shared with him those stories about fishing trips...So if Randall and Jack were going to live together, I think that if Jack had told Randall that he was gonna be out for some days in a trip, Randall had known for sure....and I don't think he had tolerated that.
Interesting, aintfoolin. And would you think that Jack would keep it that way? If he and Randall had a ranch in Texas, then perhaps he could have kept the secret from Ennis indefinitely. But at LF, I wonder... Still, Ennis rarely went out of Riverton, except perhaps during the round-up or for work. I doubt that he would have ended up in LF on his own, in any case. So perhaps Jack could have kept everything secret for some time...
Still, people are bound to talk -- with such an arrangement with Jack and Randall. Perhaps Ennis would get wind of it inevitably...
Sorry, so long getting back but it's a great question. How long could Jack keep his and Randall's relationship secret IF they got together to build a ranch in Texas or LF.? I guess it would depend on how bad Ennis wanted to see Jack again and what he has to say at Pine Creek.
If in Texas, Ennis could call Jack's former residence, Lureen's house, like he did when he found the postcard. I bet she'd give Ennis an earful, including all the details.
If at LF, with Randall's animal husbandry degree,, and Jack's skill as a salesman, They form a good team,they would probably have quite a nice set-up. A working ranch that would become prosperous providing OMT either dies or lets them take it over. Again there's Lureen, the common denominator in both cases. The one who has has ties to both Jack and Randall, and I won't even start with what LaShawn would have to say about it. I just feel that if Ennis wanted to find Jack, he would, especially if he had'nt died, or did'nt show up at Pine Creek. They were good friends as well as lovers.
For Ennis to show up one day out of the blue?, no warning? to tell Jack he'd had a change of heart? and find Jack living with Randall?...well that spells trouble in my book that Jack does'nt want nor need. . Like the guy who ends up with 2 dates on the same night, due to some screw up and niether will leave. It could get very ugly. Now Ennis is no deep thinker but no doubt, he'd put 2and2 together from Jack's confession at the last meeting about the (ranch forman's wife)? hmmm? ( assuming Jack lied), now I'm reaching, but I think Jack would be smart enough to let one of them go before he made his decision. Don't think he'd string Ennis along, but he'd have his reasons for quitting. Just don't think he'd leave Ennis hanging like this.
If Jack has discussed Ennis with Randall, then Randall knows what he's really dealing with here. If knowing all this, and still move to LF or ranch up with Jack anywhere, Randall would have to prove himself a powerful alternative to Ennis, the third person in their bed, at least for a while. Did Randall and Jack get this close? Maybe, but only after he's convinced Jack, or Jack convinces himself that Ennis is old news. If Randall loved Jack he would have to have proved that in some way. I don't think Jack was up for anymore guessing games post-Ennis. I'm just sayin...
Thanks for the response, AF. I think if Jack had failed to shop up after the last confrontation, Ennis would probably had sought Jack out -- either by letter, by phone, or in person.
But what if Jack continued to see Ennis after the final confrontation -- even after he had moved in with Randall? Would Ennis have suspected? Would jack have been able to have kept things with Randall a secret? Would this have been even possible? Would Randalll have allowed it if he had gone over to LF to live with Jack?
In this scenario, I suppose Jack would be able to keep Randall a secret as long as Ennis never traveled beyond the coffe pot, looking for the handle,...for a little while.. but I feel eventually, he'd get suspicious of the amount of time Jack was spending at LF. I just don't see Jack paying this dangerous game, toying with the emotions of both men. Don't think Randall would allow it either. He would have givin up alot to be with Jack . It would be a stretch for Randall to not be livid at Jack when the whole point of him being at LF is because Ennis would'nt commit to the sweet life. Think he'd have a *you had your chance pal, attitude toward Ennis, *now he's mine*. Really, before long Jack would let something slip and Ennis's suspicions would peak, and he was a possesive, jealous man when it came to Jack. Jack would be asking for big trouble trying to pull this off in this close proximity to Ennis. MO.
When Ennis went to see Jack's parents after he learned of his death, Jack's dad said that last spring Jack had told them of another feller going to move there with him and help run the ranch. This was probably soon after the last confrontation where Jack was so exasperated and hurt and I think just plain weary of Ennis at that point. But like the dad said, nothing ever came of it , making me think he was still holding on to his hope that he and Ennis could still be together he loved him so much. I'm also wondering what would have happened had their situations been reversed and Jack had been the one divorced and Ennis had stayed married. Would Jack had been as patient or being single would he have gone out and played the field more? We know Ennis really didn't much, he seemed to want only Jack but still on a limited basis. Jack was more intense about what and who he wanted all the time. I'm just wondering how long he could have stood the heartache before he looked elsewhere for something permenant? Would he have loved Ennis forever?, I think so, even if he chose to move on with someone else. Would Ennis have regretted it? You bet..
We really can't know for sure how long their relationship would have endured-living together I mean...-.But I'd like to say that the most I watch the film or think or write about it,the most I realise that both of them were living a fantasy based in a wish.I'm not saying they didn't love each other,no;but never in their whole lives did they live the same as in BBM,when they met each other.Never, neither even when they found each other after four years of separation;nor when they spent these days together after their reunion,nor every time they travelled to the mountain.Why am I saying that?. ???it makes perfect sense ali you make so very valid points ^f^
Because they remained somehow on the mountain and in the happy times of 1963,and they pretended also somehow that every time they met it'd be like then.And it never could be the same,at least while both of them had family duties and/or the deep fear to share their life in Ennis case...Each one of their reunions were indeed like a poor copy of that times; I say "poor" because poor-for short-were the days they spent together,and poor-for several reasons-were their hopes to make them more frequent little by little.So,there was a wish to make these little holidays into a real life together-clearer in Jack's case,hidden and denied in Ennis-;but as time was passing and these hopes were fadding,they only had BBM and its memories,and I think they hanged on these memories too much.I don't know if this makes sense; excuse me if I can't explain myself better... :-\\
We really can't know for sure how long their relationship would have endured-living together I mean...-.But I'd like to say that the most I watch the film or think or write about it,the most I realise that both of them were living a fantasy based in a wish.I'm not saying they didn't love each other,no;but never in their whole lives did they live the same as in BBM,when they met each other.Never, neither even when they found each other after four years of separation;nor when they spent these days together after their reunion,nor every time they travelled to the mountain.Why am I saying that?. ???
Because they remained somehow on the mountain and in the happy times of 1963,and they pretended also somehow that every time they met it'd be like then.And it never could be the same,at least while both of them had family duties and/or the deep fear to share their life in Ennis case...Each one of their reunions were indeed like a poor copy of that times; I say "poor" because poor-for short-were the days they spent together,and poor-for several reasons-were their hopes to make them more frequent little by little.So,there was a wish to make these little holidays into a real life together-clearer in Jack's case,hidden and denied in Ennis-;but as time was passing and these hopes were fadding,they only had BBM and its memories,and I think they hanged on these memories too much.I don't know if this makes sense; excuse me if I can't explain myself better... :-\\
But it was also significant to note that they never rwally went back to Brokeback Mountain -- as if they understood that they could never return, and not just in a physical sense. All this reminds me of Houseman's verses:
Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.
Wonderful verses,Thomas¡.Yes,they never came back to BBM,maybe for applying this of "Never come back to the place you've been happy in"...All what they were looking for along the years was something more than a beautiful landscape where to be easy together; was a copy of this Brokeback Mountain,whose status and similarities they'll never get again.BBM was a symbol,beyond a nice place,and as a symbol meant also that they never could come back to it in the same way,both physically and emotionally.But I guess they lived "anchored" in that time somehow,as if every meeting was going to be as in 1963,and that they didn't realise-or denied to realise...-that these happy times were gone.
Symbolically, I do think it means that once they came back to the "world", true happiness would escape them. And they couldn't come back to the place of happiness, once the world has touched both of them. It is like a loss of innocence -- an expulsion from Eden?amazing way to put it thomas :)
Thanmks Matt. MPJ certainly deserves as much as the credit on this one. ;)
Thank you so much,Thomas;I don't think I deserve nothing special.I've limited to say what I feel somehow,and I usually say this is not question of explaining well or badly... ^f^ In this case,I think both of us are saying the same thing;BBM was a symbol of a full and real happiness that would be never get in the same extent because,as you say,"world had touched them".And as I said,this world meant their family and work duties,to clash against the wall of the real society that never accept them.
Which is why -- given what they were up against -- we should note how long the relationship endured in spite of everything else. I think many of us will say that it endured even after Jack's death.
Which is why -- given what they were up against -- we should note how long the relationship endured in spite of everything else. I think many of us will say that it endured even after Jack's death.
Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(:\'(
Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(
Yes,I'm sure of this too.It endured even after Jack's death and it's such a pity to realise that,to some extent,precisely then is when it could get its greatest strenght; with an Ennis surely willing to give a further step and having shown the innest part of his soul and feelings in the confrontation scene... :\'(
Alas, it is usually the case -- that we become resolute only when something is past resolution. This is all too common in the human condition. The miracle is that things endure in spite of ourselves.
And isn't true that their relationship seems sometimes to endure precisely in spite of themselves?.Love was deep,but also their doubts,denials,renunciations,frustrations,and so on...The problem is what you and me are saying,as in the proverb:You never know how much you love something(or somebody) until you loose it. :-\\
IN a VERY real sense, their love was stronger than either of them. Their love represented something stronger. I think it captured the meaning of "love is a force of nature" very well. Yes, in spite of their individual doubts and failings, they couldn't prevail against that love.Yes,for this reason I said that their relationship seemed sometimes to ensure in spite of themselves.And in spite of all these fears and frustrations that surrounded their love.Because this love was greater than all the negative that there could be,although they-specially Ennis-could deny it or not accept it.
Yes,for this reason I said that their relationship seemed sometimes to ensure in spite of themselves.And in spite of all these fears and frustrations that surrounded their love.Because this love was greater than all the negative that there could be,although they-specially Ennis-could deny it or not accept it.
Exactly. It was as if it is something outside of either of them individually. I know it sounds geeky, but a chemical or ionic bond comes to mind: something stronger than the individual constituents, and something that draws those normally opposing/repelling constituents to each other...
Deatj probably even strengthened it...
Thanks atalley. I really feel that that was the primary function of the dream sequences -- to point out that Jack continued to live as a denizen of Ennis's inner life. I think this is no less real than flesh and blood, as far as Ennis is concerned. His reactions to these dreams were real enough...
It's clear that Jack continued to live in Ennis mind,heart and soul; as you say,it's not less real than flesh and blood,IMO even stronger.Because it's something not lived,but FELT,and that's forever.For this reason,I'm every time surer that,even if the relationship broke,there would always be a flame that would unite them,both in live and in death.well said! :)
well said! :)
It's clear that Jack continued to live in Ennis mind,heart and soul; as you say,it's not less real than flesh and blood,IMO even stronger.Because it's something not lived,but FELT,and that's forever.For this reason,I'm every time surer that,even if the relationship broke,there would always be a flame that would unite them,both in live and in death.
I have a feeling sometimes that Jack "haunted" Ennis, and I don't mean this as a ghostly visitation.i agree...and you cant look away from wht you see in your minds eye.
Sometimes, being haunted by something is almost tantamount to being pursued -- of being hunted. No intentional play of words here. When one is haunted by something, it becomes more real than reality itself, because if continues to dwell in the mind's eye.
I have a feeling sometimes that Jack "haunted" Ennis, and I don't mean this as a ghostly visitation.
Sometimes, being haunted by something is almost tantamount to being pursued -- of being hunted. No intentional play of words here. When one is haunted by something, it becomes more real than reality itself, because if continues to dwell in the mind's eye.
i agree...and you cant look away from wht you see in your minds eye.
I agree with both of you; sometimes you see more clearly with mind's eyes than with your physical eyes.But in this case,the vision is surrounded by a deep love,that is the best haunting IMO.also very true///mor ethen any other emotion love is the most relentlesly haunting....
i agree...and you cant look away from wht you see in your minds eye.
I agree with both of you; sometimes you see more clearly with mind's eyes than with your physical eyes.But in this case,the vision is surrounded by a deep love,that is the best haunting IMO.
Maybe the both of them would have been more united in death than they've been being Jack alive; and maybe more than they would have been if they have lived together without getting free of all their fears and doubts.It's tragic to admit this,but it's what I think somehow... :(
TYes, I do feel that there was an element of redemption in Jack's death and Ennis's gradual awakening. As the cliche goes, Jack is now more real to Ennis than he ever was when he was alive. It's because he is now completely under Ennis's skin.
Thanks atalley and MPJ.
You know, I do have this feeling that all that time Ennis spent in his trailer between Jack's death and Jr's marriage -- he was perhaps living a life with Jack, if only in dreams. So many people who withdraw from the world invariably do this, no? I think this echoes what MPJ just said. But at that stage, who are we to say which is dream and which is reality?
It would endure precisely because of the absence of denials, the absence of fears...
Thanks too,Thomas and friends¡ But I think we've been slightly *o) ,because it's true that their relationship get another dimension after Jack's death-another deeper,greater and less guilty dimension than before...-.But what we are discussing is how many time do you think their relationship would have endure being Jack alive and after the confrontation scene?. :*(
But they are intrinsically related, no? Or perhaps sides of the same coin. To answer the question of how long their love would endure, we must address why people persist in dreaming, even if the dreamer himself/herself is dead. Dreams have a separate life -- that is why things endure long after the dreamers awaken.
But they are intrinsically related, no? Or perhaps sides of the same coin. To answer the question of how long their love would endure, we must address why people persist in dreaming, even if the dreamer himself/herself is dead. Dreams have a separate life -- that is why things endure long after the dreamers awaken.Yes,you're right,as always...But we can see how their relationship was really made of dreams; Jack's dream when alive and Ennis dream's when he was alone about a "sweet life together".Not altogether,not before Jack's death...And yes,they're related somehow,above all when dreams is all what remains.
Thanks Tammy and MPJ.
In the end, I think dreams are what Ennis has left. But I think they would suffice to make their love endure beyond death itself.
Yes,Ennis only has dreams in the end.And dreaming in what would have been and wasn't is what makes their love eternal.IMO,more than being Jack alive,however...
It would have been worse than death for Ennis to be deprieved of his dreams. Whether or not the dreams were happy or sad, I would think that Ennis would not want to live without them. Perhaps the dreams became his own reality. Their love certainly endures in dreams.
Thanks atalley, Richard, and MPJ.
It is certainly important to distinguish between their love and the relationship. I do agree that although the relationship between them became more and more tenuous with each passing year, their love remained unchanged/intact. I tend to think that the latter is much more important than the former. And love certainly endures beyond separation and even death.
The difficulty in my mind rests on whther we can take out the love in the relationship. Without it, it is not a question of whether or not it would endure -- it won't. And yet, we can say the the love goes beyond the relationship. It informs who they are in the deepest sense -- even that part of them is forever unreachable by the other in a relationship.Of course,I think we agree in that their love was strong enough as to survive to all the difficulties they had to manage with during almost 20 years.IMO,this is the best and greatest proof that this love had an enduring basis...But I was referring to the possibility that their relationship,mainly by living together at the end,would have the same strength as to survive,according to what we've seen of both characters up to now.
Thanks MPJ. A relationship at close quarters can go two way, correct? Either overfamiliarity breeds contempt, or that closer proximity deepens one's resolve. In the case of Jack and Ennis, I somehow feel that living together would havwe deepened their resolve -- there is no basis for my saying this as a matter of fact. It's just that I think in the beginning, their love will sustain them in the day-to-day struggles of living together. And after than, the relationship will allow that same love to deepen even more...As you say,it could go two ways; dealing with the problems and happiness of living together could deepen their love,in a positive sense.But also this same struggle,joined and magnified with fears and suspicions about their own way of living,could perfectly be after some time a "wearing down" and,so,a problem in itself,in a negative way.
tpe, this thread is certainly interesting and really has a lot of people thinking, for Ennis both after Jack's death and how things might have gone had Jack lived. I don't know where to put this comment so please feel free to move it if necessary. There is a most beautiful interpretation of what Ennis' life might have been out there written by AtomicTwilight. The story (a multiple hanky one) is called Bitter Peace and can be found at fanfiction.net/s/4635680/1/ Richard/rlh03
tpe, this thread is certainly interesting and really has a lot of people thinking, for Ennis both after Jack's death and how things might have gone had Jack lived. I don't know where to put this comment so please feel free to move it if necessary. There is a most beautiful interpretation of what Ennis' life might have been out there written by AtomicTwilight. The story (a multiple hanky one) is called Bitter Peace and can be found at fanfiction.net/s/4635680/1/ Richard/rlh03
Coming back to the thread's subject,we can't know for sure if their relationship would have endured until their old age,being Jack alive.What I see every time more and more clearer is that the last confrontation were going to mark "a before and an after" in it,even with more problems for both of them;because on one side,if Ennis seemed more willing to do this so hoped further step in their "sweet life together",on the other side Jack seemed really fed up with the situation.Fed up with struggling with something he knew from the very moment Ennis rejected after his divorce,that was never going to happen and fed up with loving so much without having a clear answer,and sometimes neither a clear correspondence,to this love.
So,if Jack was decided to move on,maybe, by substituting someone with another one(what is sometimes a good way to ,not forget,but to avoid being so hurt...),I wonder if one more time,both of them were going to speak the same language,but with different dialect...I mean,if one more time,when one wanted,the other didn't,but this time with a change of roles.
MPJ, if I understood you well, you are asking what if Ennis is the one who would accept the changes after the FC, but then Jack could the one who will refuse his offer.Well,let's coming back to the old threads,even if I can't remember what I said then...but I can't let your post without an answer,or a re-answer¡ ;D I don't believe Jack would have loose his interest,and less still suddenly.Precisely because,as you say,he had sacrificed so many things in his life for this goal,a moment arrives when he,or any other person,is hopeless in that this goal could be reached.And even when there's an slight hope of reaching it,lack of a real trust can have a greater weight in his reactions,just because of this;of all the years when he had to swallow his hopes in the most radical and rudest way sometimes...
I honestly don't think so. Jack sacrificed so many things in his life for one goal only, and when that goal would be reached - suddenly he loses his interest?
I don't know, I could be romantic when it comes to their love ( and solely to their love ??? ), but I believe that they HAD IT! It was just the tragic ending of my dear Jack which stopped the things happen. Jack himself would have never ever stopped them. IMHO
I see them together forever in my mind. The movie and SS are only one possible end of their story. Not the only one!
MPJ, if I understood you well, you are asking what if Ennis is the one who would accept the changes after the FC, but then Jack could the one who will refuse his offer.
I honestly don't think so. Jack sacrificed so many things in his life for one goal only, and when that goal would be reached - suddenly he loses his interest?
I don't know, I could be romantic when it comes to their love ( and solely to their love ??? ), but I believe that they HAD IT! It was just the tragic ending of my dear Jack which stopped the things happen. Jack himself would have never ever stopped them. IMHO
I see them together forever in my mind. The movie and SS are only one possible end of their story. Not the only one!
Well,let's coming back to the old threads,even if I can't remember what I said then...but I can't let your post without an answer,or a re-answer¡ ;D I don't believe Jack would have loose his interest,and less still suddenly.Precisely because,as you say,he had sacrificed so many things in his life for this goal,a moment arrives when he,or any other person,is hopeless in that this goal could be reached.And even when there's an slight hope of reaching it,lack of a real trust can have a greater weight in his reactions,just because of this;of all the years when he had to swallow his hopes in the most radical and rudest way sometimes...
What I meant in my former post is that we don't know for sure if maybe all these reasons weighted too much in Jack's state of mind after FC as to believe Ennis change of his.I repeat that sometimes one needs to move on,not for a real need of having sex or,even,love,but for not being hurt no more,to try to forget in sum...And that maybe in that very moment,FC could have meant a point of no return for both of them;all these things never said before in so many years,logically could have meant too an "after and a before"in their relationship.Even if this sweet life together had been the reason in Jack's life,maybe it could arrived a little late,or at least,it had needed a little of time more to be really believed and trusted in.
Well,let's coming back to the old threads,even if I can't remember what I said then...but I can't let your post without an answer,or a re-answer¡ ;D I don't believe Jack would have loose his interest,and less still suddenly.Precisely because,as you say,he had sacrificed so many things in his life for this goal,a moment arrives when he,or any other person,is hopeless in that this goal could be reached.And even when there's an slight hope of reaching it,lack of a real trust can have a greater weight in his reactions,just because of this;of all the years when he had to swallow his hopes in the most radical and rudest way sometimes...
What I meant in my former post is that we don't know for sure if maybe all these reasons weighted too much in Jack's state of mind after FC as to believe Ennis change of his.I repeat that sometimes one needs to move on,not for a real need of having sex or,even,love,but for not being hurt no more,to try to forget in sum...And that maybe in that very moment,FC could have meant a point of no return for both of them;all these things never said before in so many years,logically could have meant too an "after and a before"in their relationship.Even if this sweet life together had been the reason in Jack's life,maybe it could arrived a little late,or at least,it had needed a little of time more to be really believed and trusted in.
I believ one of the last things we were discussing before the big less of data was whether Things would have worked out with Ennis and jack had they tried to live together up in LF. As I had said, I think that it would have worked somehow, in spite of John Twist. LF gave Ennis and jack some convenient "cover" that they would not have had had they lived together by themselves. And I do think that John Twist may have needed the extra hand anyway...
MPJ, I love so much what you said about need of not being hurt anymore. It must be so painfull for Jack to live all these years around Ennis but not really with him. I wonder where is the difference in their acceptance of such a part-time/ocassional relationship. I neither believe it was different sexual needs nor ability to manage these ones. Whas is only different attitude to social rules and constraints or to being gay?. And maybe Jack realised his feeling to Ennis clearer? I don't know, still looking for answer
I believ one of the last things we were discussing before the big less of data was whether Things would have worked out with Ennis and jack had they tried to live together up in LF. As I had said, I think that it would have worked somehow, in spite of John Twist. LF gave Ennis and jack some convenient "cover" that they would not have had had they lived together by themselves. And I do think that John Twist may have needed the extra hand anyway...
Thank you,Traveller ¡ I have remarked your phrase about the way Jack had a relationship with Ennis,because I have also liked it very much;...to live all these years around Ennis but not really with him. You're right;Jack builded somehow all his life according to Ennis needs,reactions and other circumstances;for,because of,to,around,from,of,sometimes even against Ennis...but in this unbearable grammar's test ;D the most important preposition lacks:WITH Ennis...MPJ, what a great insight ! Lack of synchronisity! I have never noticed this aspect before. Thank you for giving me such an interesting point of view for my consideration.
I think the main reason for this is that both of them had some very different attitudes before life as regards to the acceptance of loving another man,what Jack had seen clearer and much before Ennis and,what's more important,had accepted in a clearer and less guilty way.It's maybe,or almost sure,for this that I've dared to say that Jack had arrived to a point of non return after FC and that maybe too,he was going to be much more cautious in his relationship from that moment onwards;meanwhile for Ennis,maybe too it had meant "to see the light"-or at least,a little more of light...-because he had been able to compare each other's reasons during this confrontation.But,isn't the story of their love the one of a unbearable lack of synchronicity?... :-\\
You're right! I forgot the last parts of the discussion in this thread, but that's why we have you around here ;)
Well, there's some truth in your words I have to admit. It is just that I am not sure what will prevail in old man's head - his need for the extra hand or his disgust over his son's way of living. Not to mention that he didn't love Jack in the proper father's love. And Jack, bringing his lover home would be a great challenge for John Twist.
On the other hand, and it just occurred to me - John Twist was a selfish person and there's a possibility that he couldn't care less for Jack or anything about Jack as long as he had a helping hand on the ranch. Hm... that's also possible, but IMO even more despicable when it comes to John Twist, coz it's always about him. Jack never mattered! >:(
Of course the reasons of Jack's Ma to accept Ennis would be much more different, more human.
I think this would have been kind of ambivalent situation; on one hand,you're right in that living and working in LF ranch had been a cover that had allowed them to live together in a more dissimulated way than being by themselves.But,on the other hand,-and as Loreen has remarked-I wonder if living with OMT hadn't been another danger for them,because this one didn't ever mind for his son's happiness and confort,for not saying that he depicted him clearly.Hadn't been seeing his son living with his same sex lover a way to increase this depiction? And could it be translated into some kind of danger for both of them? If he had been just like Ma Twist,the cover had worked completely,but in this case,I'm doubtful...
I think that their relationship would have endured if Jack had not died, but I can't see LF as being a "safe haven" as long as Jack's pa was alive.
I did mention in a lost post here that some members would disagree with our assessment of John Twist. Some memebers have incdeed come to his defense, saying that all he wanted was some help to run the ranch. Although I am not sympathetic to John Twist, I tend to consider this a possibility.
IN any case, I think that in spite of John Twist, Ennis and Jack could have made things work. Ennis provided the necessary discretion whereas Jack provided the push to live a little. They complemented each other quite nicely, and I think they would have worked well together up in LF.But it could haver been "relatively" safe, do you think? Perhaps it would have been worse had they lived by themselves in the midst of or near a disapproving/hostile town. As I mentioned, the Twsit ranch provided some cover, if they somehow managed to keep the elder Twist under control...
I think that you know my opinion about John Twist. And it is not based only on one thing - it is based on all the possible data we have about him in the SS and the movie. But even if we want to stick only to the movie, we have enough material to get the picture how awful the old man was to Jack. I dislike him for being so bad to Jack, never showing him a real love, but only discontent with him as a person. And when it comes to Jack, I am even more sensitive to this kind of treatment! >:(
I am not sure if you think that Ennis&Jack could keep the nature of their relationship private, but IMO the old man already had a pretty good idea about that. When he spat in the cup with disgust ... I think that he was just expressing his attitude towards Ennis and his "friendship" with Jack.
IMO, the only way that John Twist would've accepted Ennis on the farm was if his own selfishness surpasses his disapproval of Jack and his relationship with Ennis. I think that their relationship would be very very complicated, with one little buffer zone - mrs Twist!
I am not sure how this would work, but if it would - than I can accept that LF could've been a better "cover" for them than some unknown place.
OMG, if only they come to this choice - LF or elsewhere.... :\'(
I think Aguirre comes to mind here. He clearly despised them for what they were and waht they did. But he lived with it till they were called back down from BBM because it was the most pragmatic thing to do. You can extrapolate a similar behaviour to others and to John Twist in particular.Yes,I tend to agree with this,even if in a former post I said that living in LF would have been an ambivalent situation for both of them;on one hand,it would be a convenient cover,much more than living on their own ranch,but,on the other hand,it could have been difficult and,even,dangerous,being OMT so disdainful against his son and knowing the nature of his relationship with Ennis.
I think Aguirre comes to mind here. He clearly despised them for what they were and waht they did. But he lived with it till they were called back down from BBM because it was the most pragmatic thing to do. You can extrapolate a similar behaviour to others and to John Twist in particular.
Yes,I tend to agree with this,even if in a former post I said that living in LF would have been an ambivalent situation for both of them;on one hand,it would be a convenient cover,much more than living on their own ranch,but,on the other hand,it could have been difficult and,even,dangerous,being OMT so disdainful against his son and knowing the nature of his relationship with Ennis.
I keep on seeing this in both ways,but I guess that OMT had shut up and "let them do" providing they had been a good help for him.As you say,the same than Aguirre,who learned to hide his disgust because his own interest was bigger,he only would add another reason to depict his son without any greater consequences...
Well, yes! That's what I wanted to say - if E&J could be useful to John Twist, he'd tolerate them. But for Aguirre, it was a "one shot thing" and it had a very near end - few months. Even so, Aguirre cut it and let them go as early as possible, right?
For John Twist it would be a lifetime situation, and during so long time, people get some ideas, get some turbulence in their heads... That's why I ask myself - would it last? At which point would John Twist snap? (and IMO it is pretty sure that he would!) And how would that effect Ennis?
My feelings about LF being a safe and convenient cover also assumes that unlike a hostle society at large, it would be difficult for me to see even John Twist killing Ennis or Jack as they worked in the ranch -- no matter how distasteful it was to him. And of course, we have the mitigating influence of Mrs. Twist.
Aguirre let them off as early as possible -- but that was about it. He didn't confront them (he only confronted Jack later when Jack sort of "provoked" him) and the reason why he let them go was perhaps more about their not guarding the sheep at night in the manner that he expected them to do.
But I am sure that part of the reason was hjis distaste for what he had seen. Frankly, I suspect that this was not the only time he had seen these happen with the people he hired...
;D &*& You want to say that there's some other "Brokeback mountains" that we don't know about? ;D This is a very peculiar suggestion, I have to say! ::)
Also, I never though that John T. would kill Ennis or Jack- God forbid. It is not about killing at all! It is about every day life which is sometimes extremely difficult to bear, even in much more "normal" circumstances.
I mean to say that when 2 men are hired to be all alone up in the mountains with sheep and no women, things happen. I read an old NY Times interview when BBM came out -- about such a "shepherd" who said that such things happen a lot. And I am talking here about SEX and not love. It was convenient. ;)
But surely other people wouldn't have hesistated to try to kill Ennis and Jack, if they lived alone elsewehere...
That's sick & disgusting...about the sheep, I mean.
About the sheep thing -- disgusting, but probably true. Stories like this go back to remote antiquity...
Yes, I think that no matter how bad OMT was to Jack, he would probably not contemplate murder -- at least when it involved his own son. The again, there is no real proof for this. Just my feeling. But I would think that it was more probable that they would be attacked if they lived on a ranch by themselves...
I agree about John Twist - as despicable as he was, he'd never murdered his son, more because Mrs Twist was around. Also, I have a feeling that, in any danger, she would be the shield for Ennis too.
I somehow think that Mrs. Twist would be more than a sufficient counterbalance to John Twist. :)Mrs.Twist and the need OMT had of some ranchhand to help him.As we said in former posts,the same than Aguirre,he could depicted their relationship,but it was greater the need that they did their work properly while they could serve to his interests.
I somehow think that Mrs. Twist would be more than a sufficient counterbalance to John Twist. :)
I also think that protecting her son's happiness, Mrs Twist would've done anything, but still, it's not that she had any rights in that house. Although, having Jack and Ennis on her side, things would be easier for her. It would be 3 of them against one... well, I am almost ready to believe that things would work. :s)
It would ultimately depend on how the 3 of them can support each other against OMT. The latter certainly is a tough nut to crack...
;D I also think so, and at the beginning I thought that the things wouldn't work. Now, I somehow think that maybe 3 positive characters could form a circle, which would also be a tough nut ti crack.... And OMT would possibly be tamed if the things on the farm would work...
At the very least, he could be ISOLATED. ;)
I have to admit that you almost made me believe your theory about LF! ;D
Come over to the Dark Side. >:D ;D Just kidding. ;)
;D ;D ;D I know you are.
It is just that you've been here much longer and have more stable opinion about things. I feel that I am still searching for mine. :)
But I like this searching, that is the journey we're all talking about.
Long live LF! ;D ;D ;D ... and our boys there... (OMG if only!)
On the contrary, I find my opinions shifting all the time. Perhaps it should be this way, given that there are no hard-fast certainties in Art.
Oh, really? That's interesting, but on the second thought it's not strange at all. No one would be able to be around this forum and discuss about things that are already cemented in his/her head for so long time. It would be pointless. It is just our maturing, new information, other people insights etc. that make this journey interesting, right?
To go back to the topic... I am so contented imagining 2 of them in LF now ^-^ (no OMT in my imagination though ;D)... Even, I believe that living some place else could also be an option, but further from Wyoming or Texas, where they were known...
Yes. :)
Personally, I do think that perhaps both of them [along with Mrs. Twist] could have made things work. I know that this certainly wasn't my opinion a few years back. The trick is making Ennis believe that it was possible to make it work.
Yes. :)
Personally, I do think that perhaps both of them [along with Mrs. Twist] could have made things work. I know that this certainly wasn't my opinion a few years back. The trick is making Ennis believe that it was possible to make it work.
Yes,this would have been the most difficult thing to do;making Ennis believe that it could work... :-\\ But I also believe-now more than some time ago-that once Ennis convinced to doing the "great step",Mrs.Twist affection and support would have been the best to diminish OMT inffluence;and being at the same time a convenient "cover" against other person's gossips,much more than being by their own.And even,who knows?,she would be the last and definitive push to make Ennis decide himself by means of this affection and support...
;D Who pulled you to the "Dark side" of LF? ;D
It is amazing how we change our opinion about things. And it always seems so real and acceptable. In fact - anything is more acceptable than the real ending which in fact made us become addicted to the movie at the first place.
Yes, I think this was Jack's biggest hurdle -- making Ennis come around to agree to the idea. I think John Twist would have been easier to deal with than this... And certainly, Mrs. Twist would have made a big difference?I don't know for sure if she had could convinced Ennis,but what I mean is that,once the further step done (the great decision),she would have been the best help against OMT and society.As a matter of fact,she knew the kind of relationship his son and Ennis had from a very long time;maybe she couldn't understand it completely,maybe-or surely-she couldn't admit it for her culture and environment.But she respected it,for love to his son.
I speculate here: what if Jack had enlisted his mom to help him convince Ennis to come up to LF? I wonder whether this would have been too much to ask her. But could she have convinced Ennis, I wonder?
I don't remember anymore! ;D
Yes, we tend to think that opinions are less fluid than they actually are!
I don't know for sure if she had could convinced Ennis,but what I mean is that,once the further step done (the great decision),she would have been the best help against OMT and society.As a matter of fact,she knew the kind of relationship his son and Ennis had from a very long time;maybe she couldn't understand it completely,maybe-or surely-she couldn't admit it for her culture and environment.But she respected it,for love to his son.
So,maybe in a very discrete and subtle way,she could even make an "apart" with Ennis to make him understand things,in the discrete,subtle-and loving-way she spoke to him-his son's lover-when they met each other.It would have been rather difficult to Jack asking her mother in a direct way,and for her to accept it and to do it;but sometimes,things aren't needed to be said directly,only by giving enough "clues" to the one who can and wants to understand them,and above all,whose ears are guided for love.
OT: I can remember some things about which I completely changed my mind (180o)... (BTW; I miss orangetruck - he used to inspire some discussions a lot... Tony too... :-\\)
Yes, I was speculating whether Jack should have asked for his mother's help in convincing Ennis to come to LF. After all, he did talk about Ennis many times to his parents (OMT's comment is proof of it.)Yes,you're right.I think what Ennis needed is the "cover" of a family life to convince himself that living with another man would be possible.Mrs.Twist was the best accomplice for her son's love and confidences,so it wouldn't be rather difficult for her to be it once again if Ennis had gone to their ranch.By speaking with him even,firstly,and by giving them some "respectability" image with her presence,after that,if you see what I mean...
I somehow think that the relationship would have endured and worked out had Mrs. Twist intervened...
Yes,you're right.I think what Ennis needed is the "cover" of a family life to convince himself that living with another man would be possible.Mrs.Twist was the best accomplice for her son's love and confidences,so it wouldn't be rather difficult for her to be it once again if Ennis had gone to their ranch.By speaking with him even,firstly,and by giving them some "respectability" image with her presence,after that,if you see what I mean...