Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aintfoolin on Mar 29, 2008, 09:26 PM
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Why in the world would Jack ask Ennis this question?
Alma alluded to being concerned about Ennis bein alone so much in the Thanksgiving scene, but why would Jack feel that Ennis needed to /or would even think about re-marry? Just small talk? or something deeper? I don't have a clue.
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Jack ask him all these years after the divorce Ennis couldn't find anyone to marry. Fair question. What was it that kept Ennis from even finding a woman to settle down with? I don't think Jack concern so much that Ennis had to be married, as to why Ennis wasn't married.
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Maybe he was questioning Ennis about their relationship? Not so long after there is this famous quote from Jack: The Truth is sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it to which Ennis never replied.
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Maybe he was questioning Ennis about their relationship? Not so long after there is this famous quote from Jack: The Truth is sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it to which Ennis never replied.
This is this what I mean when I say something deeper. Was Jack *fishing* for answeres, trying in a subtle way to get Ennis to admit something to him? if this is true, I don't think Ennis got it.
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All this time I've wondered about this too aintfoolin. Jack surely didn't want Ennis to get remarried did he? He wanted to "marry" Ennis if he could, right? Seems a better question (though coming from Ennis) would have been, "All this time and you still ain't got divorced?"
Maybe he's proding Ennis to see if there's any other men friends in his life. But when Jack continues on about the rancher's wife, it's clear even he is still maintaining the "I ain't queer" facade from 20 years ago. Except for the "miss you so much" phrase, this has always seemed one of the most confused sections of dialog in the film. JMHO.
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Maybe he's proding Ennis to see if there's any other men friends in his life. But when Jack continues on about the rancher's wife, it's clear even he is still maintaining the "I ain't queer" facade from 20 years ago. Except for the "miss you so much" phrase, this has always seemed one of the most confused sections of dialog in the film. JMHO.
Tell me about it. Here is where I don't know, the word "irony" comes in to play. Anyway, I've alway thought Jack had the perfect right to ask that question. When Jack said "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." What was Ennis response? He said nothing, as if he knew what that would lead to. Ennis was being very careful.
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Tell me about it. Here is where I don't know, the word "irony" comes in to play. Anyway, I've alway thought Jack had the perfect right to ask that question. When Jack said "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." What was Ennis response? He said nothing, as if he knew what that would lead to. Ennis was being very careful.
Yeah he was but i think he felt the same way as Jack. If he didnt them why would he be that angry the day after when Jack told him that he had been to Mexico?
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My apologies for the long winded response. I just find a lot to consider, and a lot to relate experience with.
First off, I get the feeling it's for the sake of acknowledgement on Jack's part; to show Ennis he's not giving up on him (yet); to not corner him. Jack is close to pushing Ennis away, probably has been for years. Meanwhile, it is eating Jack alive. "Sometimes I miss you so much.." is proof of the appetite of Jack's love that he can no longer satisfy with emptiness; the next day he rumbles and growls at Ennis from the inside out. It's as though Jack instinctively let's Ennis understand that he's been keeping him on a leash and yet, starving him. If only Jack knew how to snap the leash and go find proper nourishment, love, he is saying he would do so; instead, he was loyal to Ennis. He was prisoner to love.
This said, I think the night prior is a thinning prelude to the finale of their chemistry, an extended, lit fuse finally bringing ignition and POW -- but of course they explode together. This echoes many a time including first departure, divorce scene, and this final confrontation when they recoil in an embrace at the ground (nevermind how I think afterlife will reunite them after the explosion of Jack's death).
"All this time and you ain't found anyone else to marry" / All this time and you still love me the most?
"All this time and you ain't found no one else to marry" / You're still content to be stuck in limbo?
There are many double meanings, mainly aimed at Ennis' psyche and the likelihood that his transparent walls will finally crumble in the favor of his and Jack's love affair. Personally, I don't lean on the notion that Jack was insecure about Ennis' feelings towards another woman or man. Rather, he was painting a contrast between their lives off the mountain, and the love between each other, while suffocating on the fumes of red paint. - best to use *images* on Ennis.
Ennis: .. I been puttin' the blocks on this pretty little gal up in Riverton / I still haven't forgotten to act straight.
I find it beautifully bittersweet that Jack couldn't outright "hurt" or jeopardize Ennis by saying he'd been considering Randall, and had to throw in "fooling with" his wife. It hurts to know how easy it is to talk of their empty 'straight' lives than it is their own love; and these tiresome facades had been getting to Jack and the longer he was left in life to feel robbed of his true love, the shorter that fuse got. He sleeps on it, and in the morning with the mere mention of November, he is set off.
All this time and you ain't found no one else to marry..
20 years ... and you still haven't turned 10.
:\'(
Yeah, I think Jack needed an "I love you". Ennis could have stomped the fuse out, had he been able to offer something sincere. I think that's what it boils down to ...
For now, that's my 2 cents.
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"The Truth is sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it "
Tell me about it. Here is where I don't know, the word "irony" comes in to play. . . . What was Ennis response? He said nothing, as if he knew what that would lead to. Ennis was being very careful.
Yeah he was but i think he felt the same way as Jack. If he didn't them why would he be that angry the day after when Jack told him that he had been to Mexico?
In the earlier "unedited" script (one that was probably filmed, but not included in the film) Ennis responds to Jack here: "I know the feelin'. . . "
Obviously Ang decided to not include these four words, and to depend on Heaths facial expression here which of course leads to very interesting interpretations. An open question as to how this could change the scene and ultimately the film.
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In the earlier "unedited" script (one that was probably filmed, but not included in the film) Ennis responds to Jack here: "I know the feelin'. . . "
Obviously Ang decided to not include these four words, and to depend on Heaths facial expression here which of course leads to very interesting interpretations. An open question as to how this could change the scene and ultimately the film.
I would have loved to hear Ennis say that...i probably would have cried more then i already do in that scene :\'(
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I've always thought that,effectively,Jack uses this question as a way of estimating Ennis answers and making them turn into their own relationship.As Justin says very well,as a way of asking him between the lines if Ennis still feels the same for him,if there's any hope,any little it could be...Maybe it was an introduction to speak more openly and deeply about their relationship's future,that,one more time,Ennis lack of an effective answer cut off from the root.And maybe,or almost surely,it was a way to know if this hope in their future was so little than he could begin to estimate Randall's role.Even if his feelings hadn't disminished,his hopes and expectations clearly had.
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My apologies for the long winded response. I just find a lot to consider, and a lot to relate experience with.
First off, I get the feeling it's for the sake of acknowledgement on Jack's part; to show Ennis he's not giving up on him (yet); to not corner him. Jack is close to pushing Ennis away, probably has been for years. Meanwhile, it is eating Jack alive. "Sometimes I miss you so much.." is proof of the appetite of Jack's love that he can no longer satisfy with emptiness; the next day he rumbles and growls at Ennis from the inside out. It's as though Jack instinctively let's Ennis understand that he's been keeping him on a leash and yet, starving him. If only Jack knew how to snap the leash and go find proper nourishment, love, he is saying he would do so; instead, he was loyal to Ennis. He was prisoner to love.
This said, I think the night prior is a thinning prelude to the finale of their chemistry, an extended, lit fuse finally bringing ignition and POW -- but of course they explode together. This echoes many a time including first departure, divorce scene, and this final confrontation when they recoil in an embrace at the ground (nevermind how I think afterlife will reunite them after the explosion of Jack's death).
"All this time and you ain't found anyone else to marry" / All this time and you still love me the most?
"All this time and you ain't found no one else to marry" / You're still content to be stuck in limbo?
There are many double meanings, mainly aimed at Ennis' psyche and the likelihood that his transparent walls will finally crumble in the favor of his and Jack's love affair. Personally, I don't lean on the notion that Jack was insecure about Ennis' feelings towards another woman or man. Rather, he was painting a contrast between their lives off the mountain, and the love between each other, while suffocating on the fumes of red paint. - best to use *images* on Ennis.
Ennis: .. I been puttin' the blocks on this pretty little gal up in Riverton / I still haven't forgotten to act straight.
I find it beautifully bittersweet that Jack couldn't outright "hurt" or jeopardize Ennis by saying he'd been considering Randall, and had to throw in "fooling with" his wife. It hurts to know how easy it is to talk of their empty 'straight' lives than it is their own love; and these tiresome facades had been getting to Jack and the longer he was left in life to feel robbed of his true love, the shorter that fuse got. He sleeps on it, and in the morning with the mere mention of November, he is set off.
All this time and you ain't found no one else to marry..
20 years ... and you still haven't turned 10.
:\'(
Yeah, I think Jack needed an "I love you". Ennis could have stomped the fuse out, had he been able to offer something sincere. I think that's what it boils down to ...
For now, that's my 2 cents.
Forget the apologies for long-windedness, I can relate to the passion , believe me you ;) ;) and this speaks to what I've considered about this question.
I think Jack was searching for something, perhaps that he is still the one and only in Ennis's life. He would love to know what's holding Ennis back, a woman? Nah, women aint considered serious competition in this love affair. Been there, done that.
He does know the solution to his problem lies within Ennis himself a tough piece of work. Had Ennis said he was putting the blocks to some fellow co-working cowboy, Jack would've been shatterd. Of course that was not the case, but " after all this time" , Jack is seeking confirmation for himself.
Yes, quitting Ennis has already crossed his mind, but he still has hope.There is definitly a connection between this scene and what transpires the next morning during which as you put it " a fuse has been lit" long time ago in Jack.The noose on the short lease is getting tighter and tighter around his neck. Yes, Ennis could've stomped out that fuse or cut the noose some slack just by uttering " I know the feelin" but that, imo opinion would not be good enough. He needs to hear something more substantive. He is already trying to prepare to quit,...with Randall in Childress waiting in the wings. ( a direct threat to Ennis, though that's open to speculation...) but anyway, Jack spares himself and Ennis THAT drama and opts out for LaShawn, Randall's wife. A lie, but it achieves the desired effect, big deal, Jack is screwing around with some ranch foreman's wife.
All them things Ennis don't know can't hurt him, but it leaves Jack very vulnerable to outside influence. Randall living in close proximity, and the Mexican border close by. . I have concluded that :.. "all this time, you aint found nobody else to marry? = after all these yrs, I need to know that I'm still the one you love. Jack is desperate for answers from Ennis involving hope, confirmation , and inspiration . With direct, open communication lacking, Jack says it all with " Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it" . It's Ennis he really wants in his life, It's Ennis that he really needs despite his daliances. Finally, it is this statement, along with " I wish I knew how to quit you" that goes to the essence of the problem between Jack and Ennis, it speaks to the tortured dilemma in which Jack finds himself. MHO.
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Mmmm, I don't know well what to say about it. ???
I've always seen it like Jack was testing waters with Ennis, trying to know what Ennis thought about their relationship. I mean, Jack maybe asked trying to know if Ennis was alone because he only needed Jack and no someone else in his life. Maybe Jack wanted Ennis to say that he had no need to marry again and cheat some innocent woman because he knew for sure that all he wanted is Jack, though he couldn't be with him. Or maybe Jack wanted to know if Ennis didn't need or want a cover in front of the society anymore and he was more aware of what was their relationship.
But Ennis talked about Cassie confirming once again the "Ain't queer". Then Jack had nothing to do but answer "me neither" talking about the rancher's wife. His face when he was saying the affair story to Ennis is the saddest thing I've ever seen. He's so broken not only listening Ennis answer but saying his own lie, denying one more time what he was, what Ennis was, what they were and what they have.
Just only MHO. ^f^
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All this time I've wondered about this too aintfoolin. Jack surely didn't want Ennis to get remarried did he? He wanted to "marry" Ennis if he could, right? Seems a better question (though coming from Ennis) would have been, "All this time and you still ain't got divorced?"
Maybe he's proding Ennis to see if there's any other men friends in his life. But when Jack continues on about the rancher's wife, it's clear even he is still maintaining the "I ain't queer" facade from 20 years ago. Except for the "miss you so much" phrase, this has always seemed one of the most confused sections of dialog in the film. JMHO.
I am glad you all got so much to say about this scene. I thought it led inevitably to the argument at the parting because the confusion that we sense is exactly the same that ran through Ennis and Jack.
I agree that Ennis should've taken this opportunity to tell Jack that there ain't no women or men that compared to him. It was what Ennis said in the hotel room in the short story. Anne Proulx and Ang Lee fought over this and Anne finally agreed that Ang's treatment here is more dramatic. It is probably why Ennis' response was deleted as well.
I think, IMHO, that the final result is more realistic and true to the spirit of the two cowboys in the story. Ennis did not grow at all as a character until the argument and breakdown, then the diner with Cassie. Jack, however, grew and matured linearly with every scene. By this scene in question, the two are as different as they had been the same in '63. It was inevitable that they had a breakup, until Ennis can transform and grow to catch up to Jack.
Back to topic, though, I think Jack was trying to see what Ennis was feeling, before re-committing his own feelings. When Ennis was non-committal, he had no choice but to play along.
I cannot expect them to act any differently, although I hope that when the time comes for me in a similar situation, I would have the wisdom to know true love and the courage to be vulnerable, and the fortune to have it returned.
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Forget the apologies for long-windedness, I can relate to the passion , believe me you ;) ;) and this speaks to what I've considered about this question.
I think Jack was searching for something, perhaps that he is still the one and only in Ennis's life. He would love to know what's holding Ennis back, a woman? Nah, women aint considered serious competition in this love affair. Been there, done that.
He does know the solution to his problem lies within Ennis himself a tough piece of work. Had Ennis said he was putting the blocks to some fellow co-working cowboy, Jack would've been shatterd. Of course that was not the case, but " after all this time" , Jack is seeking confirmation for himself.
Yes, quitting Ennis has already crossed his mind, but he still has hope.There is definitly a connection between this scene and what transpires the next morning during which as you put it " a fuse has been lit" long time ago in Jack.The noose on the short lease is getting tighter and tighter around his neck. Yes, Ennis could've stomped out that fuse or cut the noose some slack just by uttering " I know the feelin" but that, imo opinion would not be good enough. He needs to hear something more substantive. He is already trying to prepare to quit,...with Randall in Childress waiting in the wings. ( a direct threat to Ennis, though that's open to speculation...) but anyway, Jack spares himself and Ennis THAT drama and opts out for LaShawn, Randall's wife. A lie, but it achieves the desired effect, big deal, Jack is screwing around with some ranch foreman's wife.
All them things Ennis don't know can't hurt him, but it leaves Jack very vulnerable to outside influence. Randall living in close proximity, and the Mexican border close by. . I have concluded that :.. "all this time, you aint found nobody else to marry? = after all these yrs, I need to know that I'm still the one you love. Jack is desperate for answers from Ennis involving hope, confirmation , and inspiration . With direct, open communication lacking, Jack says it all with " Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it" . It's Ennis he really wants in his life, It's Ennis that he really needs despite his daliances. Finally, it is this statement, along with " I wish I knew how to quit you" that goes to the essence of the problem between Jack and Ennis, it speaks to the tortured dilemma in which Jack finds himself. MHO.
:)
Mine too.
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It could also mean that Jack was trying to get across to Ennis, the loniness he felt and the vulnerabilities he felt open to. That this half- life that Ennis and his fear had doomed them to, was so trying on his patience. Patience, he had but look at what he was dealing with. Really, His situation, cheating on Lureen with Ennis and keeping secret, while cheating on Ennis, with Randall and definitly keeping secret. This is his life. Having to hide so much.
I agree, it's sad that he felt he had to play along trying to find some redeeming hope to the situation, I think he was seeking something solid from Ennis to sustain this lonely life he lived. Something to "hold him over* one more time for it was the last night they would spend together before he is forced back into another few months of lonely torture without the one he needed and loved. Perhaps the lonely vulnerable feeling he felt the last time Ennis left him to marry Alma.
Though he has loved Ennis deeply through the years he will again, be givin no choice but to make something out of nothing with a marriage in shambles and a substitute lover to compensate until they meet again. I agree, Ennis owed Jack at least some solace by words or action following his confession " sometimes I miss you so much can hardly stand it" Something sustainable to prove to him that he was'nt carrying the weight of this thing alone. Ennis coming in and out of his life like this was , taking an emotional toll on him.
In the confrontation, he speaks of once having a better idea, an alternative to the parting, a dream where they could share what they had found on a permanent basis. A dream where time did'nt matter. An idea that niether him nor Ennis would have to marry women , using them as covers over their love. Jack could live with that. Problem was, Ennis , the man he loved could'nt. 2cents more.
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Why in the world would Jack ask Ennis this question?
Alma alluded to being concerned about Ennis bein alone so much in the Thanksgiving scene, but why would Jack feel that Ennis needed to /or would even think about re-marry? Just small talk? or something deeper? I don't have a clue.
Interesting question -- I think Jack's purpose was two-fold.
First, I think he was genuinely concerned that Ennis didn't have a cover-up (i.e., a marriage would have protected him from suspicion).
Second, I think that there was a hint of jealousy here. It was a probing question, if you get what I mean. I think implicit in Jack's question was the possibility of Ennis being involved with anybody else (male or female, other than Jack).
Ennis must have sensed this and answered as best he could -- but he couldn't resist turning the tables and asking Jack the same thing -- hence, you get a rather oblique admission from Jack, and an indirect hint of Randall, I think...
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"Found anyone else to marry!" sounds to me as if a wife is still pretty much of an adjunct, someone to use as a smokescreen and indication of conformity to society's norms. This is a place where you grow up, get mattied, settle down, raise a family. NB Jack doesn't mention love or even caring.Randall found someone to marry but she's surely more of a smokescreen than someone with whom he has a deep emotional bond.
And he's kept his wife, as a cover, source of income, out of inertia, who knows why? Might be easier for him had Ennis done the same.As he is now, Ennis has no problems other than work/financial ones in getting away to meet Jack; Jack, however, has to come up with some sort of explanation whenver he leaves Lureen for a week or so, and the "seeing my parents" thing strikes me as not particularly convincing allied to the fishing trips and fishing buddy stories he evidently tells Lureen over the years.It might even be possible for Jack to think Ennis has it easier in that respect and has to make less effort to make the meetings than he does.Or maybe it's just eaier to deal with the situation if it's symmetrical.
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"Found anyone else to marry!" sounds to me as if a wife is still pretty much of an adjunct, someone to use as a smokescreen and indication of conformity to society's norms. This is a place where you grow up, get mattied, settle down, raise a family. NB Jack doesn't mention love or even caring.Randall found someone to marry but she's surely more of a smokescreen than someone with whom he has a deep emotional bond.
And he's kept his wife, as a cover, source of income, out of inertia, who knows why? Might be easier for him had Ennis done the same.As he is now, Ennis has no problems other than work/financial ones in getting away to meet Jack; Jack, however, has to come up with some sort of explanation whenver he leaves Lureen for a week or so, and the "seeing my parents" thing strikes me as not particularly convincing allied to the fishing trips and fishing buddy stories he evidently tells Lureen over the years.It might even be possible for Jack to think Ennis has it easier in that respect and has to make less effort to make the meetings than he does.Or maybe it's just eaier to deal with the situation if it's symmetrical.
Good point. There is something "utilitarian" about that question, no? I like your term "adjunct".
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"Found anyone else to marry!" sounds to me as if a wife is still pretty much of an adjunct, someone to use as a smokescreen and indication of conformity to society's norms. This is a place where you grow up, get mattied, settle down, raise a family. NB Jack doesn't mention love or even caring.Randall found someone to marry but she's surely more of a smokescreen than someone with whom he has a deep emotional bond.
And he's kept his wife, as a cover, source of income, out of inertia, who knows why? Might be easier for him had Ennis done the same.As he is now, Ennis has no problems other than work/financial ones in getting away to meet Jack; Jack, however, has to come up with some sort of explanation whenver he leaves Lureen for a week or so, and the "seeing my parents" thing strikes me as not particularly convincing allied to the fishing trips and fishing buddy stories he evidently tells Lureen over the years.It might even be possible for Jack to think Ennis has it easier in that respect and has to make less effort to make the meetings than he does.Or maybe it's just eaier to deal with the situation if it's symmetrical.
That's a very interesting point, WW. Back then in the '60s and '70s, in rural America, for sure what you said was true to some extent. And how a man does his covering up says a lot about his character, too. Look at Randall, as you mentioned, he merely married for the cover, for the money, etc, and there was definitely no love there. Look at Jack, he married at first out of love, but was battled down by the old man, until the Thanksgiving scene. His first reaching out to Ennis was after the baby was born, and the old man humiliated him even more. Ennis tried to make it work with Alma, but with Jack in the picture, there's just no way.
It's not who we love, but how we love them that says more about our character.
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So are you saying that the fact that Ennis has not re-married meant to Jack that Ennis no longer needed a *cover*? That Jack could feel relieved that there was no one else but him, that Ennis needed? Could Jack take this as some solace in this fact? What is it that Jack read into this? Thanx.
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I tend to think Jack thinks Ennis does need a cover and is worried that by living alone he's exposing himself to criticism or at least comment by the locals and would be better off married to another complaisant female like Alma, though not out of love of course. . And maybe if Ennis were to marry again that would justify Jack's remaining with Lureen - after all, there is nothing in theory to stop him taking LD's offer and leaving Texas, buying some land nearer Ennis, whatever - but he doesn't.Maybe he has a repressed sense of guilt that he's done no more than get away ( with a sort-of-plausible excuse) for short periods a couple of times a year - after all, he's stayed in Texas for something like 17 or 18 years by the time he's killed.
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I was about to say what WW just said in the last post: the fact that Ennis had not remarried was a cause for concern for Jack (as I had also indicated in a previous post).
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I was about to say what WW just said in the last post: the fact that Ennis had not remarried was a cause for concern for Jack (as I had also indicated in a previous post).
I don't think Jack WANTS Ennis to be married again, because he was so excited when he got divorced.
I think it was a probe to see if Ennis may be interested in the cow and calf operations. When Ennis did not say something like, "No, Jack, I have had my fill with women. It only you that I want." Jack had no opening to propose again. He felt dejected. It was obvious in his "Sometimes I miss you so much, I could hardly stand it."
Why would Jack WANT Ennis to be tied down with another wife? You and Alma, you called that a life?
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I tend to agree with you here LC. Timewise the divorce was in '75, this scene is supposed to be '82, so we're six - seven years down the road. It would seem that's a little late to be worrying about lack of a cover story. And Jack knew (or at least suspected) Ennis wasn't likely running around with other men given his paranoia. Don't seem ta fit. Maybe he's just teasing him, and Ennis takes the bait, starts in with his story about "puttin' the blocks . . . " Could be this little success with Ennis is what made Jack feel comfortable enough to open up 'bout Lureen's deal makin' ability and his longing for Ennis.
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I don't think Jack WANTS Ennis to be married again, because he was so excited when he got divorced.
I think it was a probe to see if Ennis may be interested in the cow and calf operations. When Ennis did not say something like, "No, Jack, I have had my fill with women. It only you that I want." Jack had no opening to propose again. He felt dejected. It was obvious in his "Sometimes I miss you so much, I could hardly stand it."
Why would Jack WANT Ennis to be tied down with another wife? You and Alma, you called that a life?
I tend to agree with you here LC. Timewise the divorce was in '75, this scene is supposed to be '82, so we're six - seven years down the road. It would seem that's a little late to be worrying about lack of a cover story. And Jack knew (or at least suspected) Ennis wasn't likely running around with other men given his paranoia. Don't seem ta fit. Maybe he's just teasing him, and Ennis takes the bait, starts in with his story about "puttin' the blocks . . . " Could be this little success with Ennis is what made Jack feel comfortable enough to open up 'bout Lureen's deal makin' ability and his longing for Ennis.
I agree with you both!!! ^f^
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Why would Jack WANT Ennis to be tied down with another wife? You and Alma, you called that a life?
Without the emphasis on want, it was likely a comfort to know Ennis was with Alma (or another woman). Given Jack's temptation (if you can call it that) towards Randall and other men, he could probably figure Ennis may have had the same issues as far as falling out goes. Hearing Ennis' response to the question of a woman could give Jack a better understanding of Ennis' progression into a steadier life with him..
I think Jack called that a piece of time borrowed for his life with Ennis, for he'd been running out of it.
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Without the emphasis on want, it was likely a comfort to know Ennis was with Alma (or another woman). Given Jack's temptation (if you can call it that) towards Randall and other men, he could probably figure Ennis may have had the same issues as far as falling out goes. Hearing Ennis' response to the question of a woman could give Jack a better understanding of Ennis' progression into a steadier life with him..
I think Jack called that a piece of time borrowed for his life with Ennis, for he'd been running out of it.
I think that's you project your own feelings onto Jack projecting his own feelings onto Ennis.
There is little evidence that Jack and Randall ever hooked up. Only speculation.
There is little evidence that Jack wants to break up with Ennis. In fact, there is only "I wish I knew how to quit you!" As in I can't EVER quit you.
But hey, whatever turns your crank. I doubt we'd have any decent discussion out of this. It will be another you said, you said, you said. :8
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I think that's you project your own feelings onto Jack projecting his own feelings onto Ennis.
There is little evidence that Jack and Randall ever hooked up. Only speculation.
There is little evidence that Jack wants to break up with Ennis. In fact, there is only "I wish I knew how to quit you!" As in I can't EVER quit you.
But hey, whatever turns your crank. I doubt we'd have any decent discussion out of this. It will be another you said, you said, you said. :8
I think that I do project personal feelings here. I have been in a position very similar to Jack's here. But back on topic:
Laughter, thanks for bringing that up.
I find the smiles and chuckles out of Ennis and Jack in this scene are melancholic. One can see in Jack a desperation and in Ennis, a fidgety wavering of what's hidden inside.
I'm not hinting at a breakup, nor at the end of what either feels for the other. However, I am saying that Jack didn't necessarily WANT Ennis married to a woman. I'm saying that inside Jack a storm has been stirring, and Ennis' whereabouts with outside commitment could induce Jack to finger the elasticity of his morale and ultimately, the face value of Ennis' love for Jack and so on..
I believe, and most of this has been stated sure, Jack's hope to share a complete life with Ennis was about to terminate. But as Jack had come to know Ennis was his surface to air, his question and statement were his attempts at still breathing. -- it took everything he had, for all those years he'd been conditioned to hide his feelings. They were forced out now.
"All this time and you ain't found no one else to marry?"
How else is one crippled gay man going to ask his crippled male lover, in the 60's, to address their love affair?
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Interesting question -- I think Jack's purpose was two-fold.
First, I think he was genuinely concerned that Ennis didn't have a cover-up (i.e., a marriage would have protected him from suspicion).
Second, I think that there was a hint of jealousy here. It was a probing question, if you get what I mean. I think implicit in Jack's question was the possibility of Ennis being involved with anybody else (male or female, other than Jack).
Ennis must have sensed this and answered as best he could -- but he couldn't resist turning the tables and asking Jack the same thing -- hence, you get a rather oblique admission from Jack, and an indirect hint of Randall, I think...
I also feel there was a bit of jeaulousy here. Jack's tone , when he asked the question, appears to put emphasis on the amount of time that's gone by. He wants to know how Ennis was *getting by* ....romantically other than him He was'nt able to stand it and wanted to know if "anyone else was interested in him. Of course there was Cassie, but , I don't think Ennis wanted any part of marriage,to her or anyone else. Niether did Jack on Ennis's behalf, but as in any long-term relationship, Jack knows eyes do sometime tend to wander. Ennis had married for cover before and Jack Knew Ennis was vulnerable to women, but Ennis bringing another woman into this thing? Nah. Not unless Ennis would be thinking about quitting Jack and that was'nt about to happen.In an a inconpicuous way, Perhaps Jack was asking Ennis if after all this time, Was there someone else Ennis hooking up with?
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Isn't it funny, how that innocent coversation leads up to "I'm not you" the following day. Sure Jack was wondering if Ennis was seeing anyone else. Jack had Mexico and Randall, it wasn't enough and not what he wanted. I guess it was kind of getting to him. And after nearly twenty years, again he was there with Ennis, and he's not showing any inkling of changing anything between them, and what in the heck was preventing him from doing so and why? So Jack ask the question, he had every right to.
Jack was getting tired, and the ride was getting longer, he laid it out, revealing himself, with "I miss you so much sometimes I can hardly stand it". He wasn't Ennis, and damn Ennis for thinking that he was.
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Isn't it funny, how that innocent coversation leads up to "I'm not you" the following day. Sure Jack was wondering if Ennis was seeing anyone else. Jack had Mexico and Randall, it wasn't enough and not what he wanted. I guess it was kind of getting to him. And after nearly twenty years, again he was there with Ennis, and he's not showing any inkling of changing anything between them, and what in the heck was preventing him from doing so and why? So Jack ask the question, he had every right to.
Jack was getting tired, and the ride was getting longer, he laid it out, revealing himself, with "I miss you so much sometimes I can hardly stand it". He wasn't Ennis, and damn Ennis for thinking that he was.
So right MG.
Jack was'nt Ennis, but he loved him. He had every right to ask it , deserved to know where he stood after all those yrs. If he was gonna invest more of himself in Ennis, he had to know that Ennis wanted him and him alone. He may have also felt guilt over Randall and Mexico. Ennis's statement "puttin the blocks to" may have meant he was holding Cassie off, ( blocking her) who DID want to marry him and he knew it. She was agressively pursuing him, and already in love, but he knew he was gonna have to nip that in the bud with her before she became suspicious of why he would'nt marry her.
I wonder how Jack would have handled it if he knew Cassie's true intentions toward his man. He had Randall, and never mentioned that. If he had, Ennis could use that to justify another relationship. he was not going to give Ennis that option, Ennis was his ,and ANYONE seriously considering coming between them was setting themself up to get hurt. Fortunatly, for Jack, Ennis did'nt want anyone else. Made his relationship with Cassie seem like no big deal to Jack, and Jack feels *safe* telling some story about seeing LaShawn.... NOT! ;D ;D
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I don't think Jack WANTS Ennis to be married again, because he was so excited when he got divorced.
I think it was a probe to see if Ennis may be interested in the cow and calf operations. When Ennis did not say something like, "No, Jack, I have had my fill with women. It only you that I want." Jack had no opening to propose again. He felt dejected. It was obvious in his "Sometimes I miss you so much, I could hardly stand it."
Why would Jack WANT Ennis to be tied down with another wife? You and Alma, you called that a life?
I think that there is a difference between the divorce scene and this later one. The difference, of course, is that in the earlier scene, Jack was completely under the impression that Ennis would consent to live with him once the divorce was finalized.
In the later scene, I think we see Jack almost resigned to the fact that Ennis will NEVER live openly with him: "I did once". Hence, whether Ennis was married or not at this point really didn't matter as much as in the earlier scene. It follows that I don't think Jack would have minded Ennis marrying again -- at least for the sake of appearances.
I must admit, nonetheless, that Jack probably appreciated the fact that an unmarried Ennis should have been less complicated to deal with -- not having to steal time from a marriage. However, by the time of the Last Confrontation, it was very clear to Jack that married or unmarried, Ennis always found an excuse to gradually cut the time they spent with each other -- either from work, obligations to children, and so forth. So Jack must have also understood by then that even a nominal marriage would not have made that much of a difference.
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I also feel there was a bit of jeaulousy here. Jack's tone , when he asked the question, appears to put emphasis on the amount of time that's gone by. He wants to know how Ennis was *getting by* ....romantically other than him He was'nt able to stand it and wanted to know if "anyone else was interested in him. Of course there was Cassie, but , I don't think Ennis wanted any part of marriage,to her or anyone else. Niether did Jack on Ennis's behalf, but as in any long-term relationship, Jack knows eyes do sometime tend to wander. Ennis had married for cover before and Jack Knew Ennis was vulnerable to women, but Ennis bringing another woman into this thing? Nah. Not unless Ennis would be thinking about quitting Jack and that was'nt about to happen.In an a inconpicuous way, Perhaps Jack was asking Ennis if after all this time, Was there someone else Ennis hooking up with?
To be sure, I do feel an element of jealousy here. It was like he was tsting Ennis by asking that very question. The fact that Ennis asked him later on about his own dealings with Lureen. We see that Jack got the point, because he volunteered much more to Ennis, as if he understood the underlying meaning beneath the seemingly innocent question.
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Isn't it funny, how that innocent coversation leads up to "I'm not you" the following day. Sure Jack was wondering if Ennis was seeing anyone else. Jack had Mexico and Randall, it wasn't enough and not what he wanted. I guess it was kind of getting to him. And after nearly twenty years, again he was there with Ennis, and he's not showing any inkling of changing anything between them, and what in the heck was preventing him from doing so and why? So Jack ask the question, he had every right to.
Jack was getting tired, and the ride was getting longer, he laid it out, revealing himself, with "I miss you so much sometimes I can hardly stand it". He wasn't Ennis, and damn Ennis for thinking that he was.
Perhaps Jack suspected that behind Ennis progressively shying away from their meetings, there was another man? In any case, perhaps Jack also felt guilty about his other trysts, and was sort of projecting it, as a matter of conscience?
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Jack's statement was coming from the heart. Despite all that Ennis did'nt know, or what he chose to admit, he says " tell you what, I miss YOU so much, I can hardly stand it" It's Ennis he really wants ,but to him, Ennis "has no idea how bad it gets". it gets so bad, he feels he has to resort to Randall and Mexican hustlers. He does'nt want that, but he's left vulnerable to it. He's not Ennis, content with virtual celibacy between the long seperations.
He feels guilt, yes maybe shame because of it, but his situation at times becomes dire. Randall and Mexico are sustitutes for who he reaaly needs so desperatly but givin the choice, Jack's really wants to say " I need you" "Not just sometimes, but all the time, especially those times when I can hardly stand it."
Ennis has spoken though, "It aint gonna be that way" Though Jack accepted this to a degree at the time, he still hoped things would change. he percieves the gap getting wider between them he questions. How do you do it? Is there someone else filling the void he should be filling for Ennis.? Nah Ennis is being his same stubborn, fearful self. He's standing it instead of fixing it. It 's clear that this is no longer acceptable to Jack.
He's made his feelings clear the best way he could in his statement. The following morning, he lays it all out. His frustration passionatly laid out to Ennis when he changes the date of their next meeting. time becomes the essence for Jack, more time with Ennis is important and deserved to him.Jack is no longer willing to stand the status quo and justifiably lets Ennis know what he's kept pent up inside for many yrs. He feels Ennis owes him more for his patience and efforts. Who can blame him? really now. My Take.
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Beautiful AF!!! I love your post and I agree!! I can say no more things because you said it all and for sure better than me!! ^f^
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Jack's statement was coming from the heart. Despite all that Ennis did'nt know, or what he chose to admit, he says " tell you what, I miss YOU so much, I can hardly stand it" It's Ennis he really wants ,but to him, Ennis "has no idea how bad it gets". it gets so bad, he feels he has to resort to Randall and Mexican hustlers. He does'nt want that, but he's left vulnerable to it. He's not Ennis, content with virtual celibacy between the long seperations.
He feels guilt, yes maybe shame because of it, but his situation at times becomes dire. Randall and Mexico are sustitutes for who he reaaly needs so desperatly but givin the choice, Jack's really wants to say " I need you" "Not just sometimes, but all the time, especially those times when I can hardly stand it."
Ennis has spoken though, "It aint gonna be that way" Though Jack accepted this to a degree at the time, he still hoped things would change. he percieves the gap getting wider between them he questions. How do you do it? Is there someone else filling the void he should be filling for Ennis.? Nah Ennis is being his same stubborn, fearful self. He's standing it instead of fixing it. It 's clear that this is no longer acceptable to Jack.
He's made his feelings clear the best way he could in his statement. The following morning, he lays it all out. His frustration passionatly laid out to Ennis when he changes the date of their next meeting. time becomes the essence for Jack, more time with Ennis is important and deserved to him.Jack is no longer willing to stand the status quo and justifiably lets Ennis know what he's kept pent up inside for many yrs. He feels Ennis owes him more for his patience and efforts. Who can blame him? really now. My Take.
Absolutely. 20 years is some void, and it's some incredible faith Jack had as a lover.
I would say your take is also mine here. I think even if Ennis had other men on the side (very unlikely to me that Jack even considered this), they'd been found down an avenue of his fear. -- idea being that he only managed those lesser affairs because they were of a more anonymous nature. But ultimately, I have to rest the core of Ennis on the fear factor alone.
Thanks for this post, I really like your use of metaphor and things said. :)
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So right MG.
Jack was'nt Ennis, but he loved him. He had every right to ask it , deserved to know where he stood after all those yrs. If he was gonna invest more of himself in Ennis, he had to know that Ennis wanted him and him alone. He may have also felt guilt over Randall and Mexico. Ennis's statement "puttin the blocks to" may have meant he was holding Cassie off, ( blocking her) who DID want to marry him and he knew it. She was agressively pursuing him, and already in love, but he knew he was gonna have to nip that in the bud with her before she became suspicious of why he would'nt marry her.
I wonder how Jack would have handled it if he knew Cassie's true intentions toward his man. He had Randall, and never mentioned that. If he had, Ennis could use that to justify another relationship. he was not going to give Ennis that option, Ennis was his ,and ANYONE seriously considering coming between them was setting themself up to get hurt. Fortunatly, for Jack, Ennis did'nt want anyone else. Made his relationship with Cassie seem like no big deal to Jack, and Jack feels *safe* telling some story about seeing LaShawn.... NOT! ;D ;D
When I read your post, Alma came to mind. Remember how Jack took no liking to her. Imagine how he would have reacted to Cassie if he actually met her. I guess possessiveness went both ways with Jack and Ennis. But this is the thing, Ennis anger of Jack's infidelity with other men, Jack's anger of Ennis being with anyone else.
Ennis I guess didn't see being with a woman as being a threat, but Jack saw it differently. It has me reevaluating my views of who was the most possessive.
Thanks aintfoolin' you've given me something else to mull over. (t)
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Isn't it funny, how that innocent coversation leads up to "I'm not you" the following day. Sure Jack was wondering if Ennis was seeing anyone else. Jack had Mexico and Randall, it wasn't enough and not what he wanted. I guess it was kind of getting to him. And after nearly twenty years, again he was there with Ennis, and he's not showing any inkling of changing anything between them, and what in the heck was preventing him from doing so and why? So Jack ask the question, he had every right to.
Jack was getting tired, and the ride was getting longer, he laid it out, revealing himself, with "I miss you so much sometimes I can hardly stand it". He wasn't Ennis, and damn Ennis for thinking that he was.
I think it was normal for Jack to think Ennis was like him, that he could hardly stand it if he felt the same way, and not be able to be apart. So when Ennis had only this cute little waitress, Jack thought, "I am not like you."
And in the same way, with Ennis, who thought that if Jack felt the same way he did, then he wouldn't be with anyone else. So when Jack said Mexico, he reacted the only way he knew, "...could get you killed."
You'd think after 20 years, they would know each other a little better than that. It shows that even soul mates sometimes don't know each other well enough.
:\'(
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I think it was normal for Jack to think Ennis was like him, that he could hardly stand it if he felt the same way, and not be able to be apart. So when Ennis had only this cute little waitress, Jack thought, "I am not like you."
And in the same way, with Ennis, who thought that if Jack felt the same way he did, then he wouldn't be with anyone else. So when Jack said Mexico, he reacted the only way he knew, "...could get you killed."
You'd think after 20 years, they would know each other a little better than that. It shows that even soul mates sometimes don't know each other well enough.
:\'(
Yeah, definitely, It's only proves that what they said twenty or so years ago is what they definitely believed, Ennis saying, "It ain't gonna be that what way," and Jack saying is "It's nobody business but ours". My nephew when he was little thing told his mother when he frustrated about her not understanding him, "you don't listen to my words".
And I guess each Jack and Ennis never really listen to the words.
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I have been reading the comments about Cassie, and I must admit that it probably would have been a problem had she and Jack collided. Had she married Ennis, I suspect that it would have been much more difficult for Ennis to get away and see Jack.
Hence, perhaps Jack would have been much more actively against Ennis remarrying if he knew a bit more -- contrary to what I had said before. It was clear that Ennis's meetings with Jack mattered to the latter very much, as attested to by the Last Confrontation.
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I have been reading the comments about Cassie, and I must admit that it probably would have been a problem had she and Jack collided. Had she married Ennis, I suspect that it would have been much more difficult for Ennis to get away and see Jack.
Hence, perhaps Jack would have been much more actively against Ennis remarrying if he knew a bit more -- contrary to what I had said before. It was clear that Ennis's meetings with Jack mattered to the latter very much, as attested to by the Last Confrontation.
Had Ennis married Cassie, and Cassie saw what Alma witnessed in the reunion scene, simlpy put it would have been much more dramatic than the previous scene. She was'nt Alma, quiet, timid, and resigned to living a lie . At the risk of sounding *soapoperish,*She and and Jack would have butted heads big time. Either way, Ennis would "get it", and I'm not talkin some quiet, reserved conversation. I believe she was a fighter, but so was Jack. Jack had more time invested in this thing and she would definitly try to put a stop to these "fishing trips". That would not sit well with Jack or Ennis. It would come to Ennis marrying for cover, but WHO the woman is and her personality would make quite a difference. Who Ennis marrys would make or break Jack and Ennis. I think it's why Ennis nipped this thing iwith Cassie in the bud. He was not going to give up Jack, Had it gotten that far, Cassie was not going to go quietly into the sunset, knowing what she knows.
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Had Ennis married Cassie, and Cassie saw what Alma witnessed in the reunion scene, simlpy put it would have been much more dramatic than the previous scene. She was'nt Alma, quiet, timid, and resigned to living a lie . At the risk of sounding *soapoperish,*She and and Jack would have butted heads big time. Either way, Ennis would "get it", and I'm not talkin some quiet, reserved conversation. I believe she was a fighter, but so was Jack. Jack had more time invested in this thing and she would definitly try to put a stop to these "fishing trips". That would not sit well with Jack or Ennis. It would come to Ennis marrying for cover, but WHO the woman is and her personality would make quite a difference. Who Ennis marrys would make or break Jack and Ennis. I think it's why Ennis nipped this thing iwith Cassie in the bud. He was not going to give up Jack, Had it gotten that far, Cassie was not going to go quietly into the sunset, knowing what she knows.
What strikes me funny, is when Ennis said to Jack "I'm putting the blocks" (talking of Cassie), I think the blocks were the other way around. I don't know if it was Ennis "chest banging" moment, but who was he kidding? It worked, Jack bought into it. There was no reason for him not to.
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Yeah, Ennis was the one giving footrubs and such right? . I've never heard this term used regarding sex. ("putting the blocks to"), but I think it was as you said earlier, Ennis was being careful.They were both keeping secrets. Ennis pursued by a sexually aggressive woman who was thinking about marriage., a direct threat to Jack who imo, would be required to backoff or bow out,and Jack had Randall standing by in Childress, a direct threat to Ennis. She was no Alma. Jack was'nt dumb. had he met Cassie, he'd know she was not the kind of woman who would'nt just let it ride. Lureen questioned him about why Ennis never came down to Texas to *fish*, but Jack had the conveience of distance to quell her suspicions+she was pre-occupied with the business, on the other hand Cassie lived in Riverton, in close proximity to Ennis.
The knowledge of either of them finding out each other's *secret* would spell big trouble. Ennis downplayed the seriousness of Cassie's intentions ,not elaborating on the fact that Cassie was in love with him ,and Jack just outright lied about Randall.
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I'm not even sure Ennis realises Cassie's in love with him ( if she is) - he seems to me more like a man pursued by a determined woman ( determined on marriage) and not sure how to get away - in the end he more or less hides. Jack's position is safer, in that Randall couldn't afford to pursue him openly or make threats without revealing his own nature and putting himself at risk of homophobics, so Jack can keep him on the back burner, as it were.
This conversation seems to me to contain some of the elements - move and counter-move - of a chess game.
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I somehow felt that Cassie was like the young Lureen in that she was the one actively pursuing Ennis. I found it interesting that in spite of what Ennis sais ("Putting the blocks"), he seemed not exactlt running away from all the attention. He seemed to have been playing along -- as it he half-wanted all the attention?
I felt that Ennis was perhaps not taking Cassie seriously enough -- not as serious as she was taking him, to be sure. Could he have not seen that she was in love with him? Perhaps he somehow felt that she too was only "playing"?
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I somehow felt that Cassie was like the young Lureen in that she was the one actively pursuing Ennis. I found it interesting that in spite of what Ennis sais ("Putting the blocks"), he seemed not exactlt running away from all the attention. He seemed to have been playing along -- as it he half-wanted all the attention?
I felt that Ennis was perhaps not taking Cassie seriously enough -- not as serious as she was taking him, to be sure. Could he have not seen that she was in love with him? Perhaps he somehow felt that she too was only "playing"?
Yes,definitively Cassie,young Lureen and Jack were very similar,in that they're active in taking control of the seduction's role.But I'm not very sure about if Ennis was playing with Cassie,but mainly taking advantage of the possibilities she gave him.To be seen going out with a woman(several years after his divorce and when he could most easily be the object of gossips or,at least,a morbid attention)was the most secure for a man in his position.However,I don't believe he lied to her or played with her in a bad acception;but that when he realised he couldn't love her,and that he didn't want her to be a second Alma by his side,he dissapeared from her life.Surely,what he didn't realise is that she had fallen in love with him.
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Had Ennis married Cassie, and Cassie saw what Alma witnessed in the reunion scene, simlpy put it would have been much more dramatic than the previous scene. She was'nt Alma, quiet, timid, and resigned to living a lie . At the risk of sounding *soapoperish,*She and and Jack would have butted heads big time. Either way, Ennis would "get it", and I'm not talkin some quiet, reserved conversation. I believe she was a fighter, but so was Jack. Jack had more time invested in this thing and she would definitly try to put a stop to these "fishing trips". That would not sit well with Jack or Ennis. It would come to Ennis marrying for cover, but WHO the woman is and her personality would make quite a difference. Who Ennis marrys would make or break Jack and Ennis. I think it's why Ennis nipped this thing iwith Cassie in the bud. He was not going to give up Jack, Had it gotten that far, Cassie was not going to go quietly into the sunset, knowing what she knows.
Dare I say as a newbie, that I have never thought much about Alma's passivity in the face of what she saw on the stairs, and how she never mentioned it to Ennis. After two years and four months of carrying this movie around in my head and my heart, you've given me more to think about. :)
I can't imagine Cassie not having an argument with Ennis if he were her husband, because she wasn't a shy retiring woman. That would have been one explosive scene. Of course with two children, many women would have kept quiet, especially if they were stay at home moms. Even now women are counseled against making hasty judgements and ending marriages over infidelity.
Hope I didn't ramble.
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Yes,definitively Cassie,young Lureen and Jack were very similar,in that they're active in taking control of the seduction's role.But I'm not very sure about if Ennis was playing with Cassie,but mainly taking advantage of the possibilities she gave him.To be seen going out with a woman(several years after his divorce and when he could most easily be the object of gossips or,at least,a morbid attention)was the most secure for a man in his position.However,I don't believe he lied to her or played with her in a bad acception;but that when he realised he couldn't love her,and that he didn't want her to be a second Alma by his side,he dissapeared from her life.Surely,what he didn't realise is that she had fallen in love with him.
Yes, this is what I meant: that he used Cassie also as a smokescreen, without giving her the reward of a commitment.
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Dare I say as a newbie, that I have never thought much about Alma's passivity in the face of what she saw on the stairs, and how she never mentioned it to Ennis. After two years and four months of carrying this movie around in my head and my heart, you've given me more to think about. :)
I can't imagine Cassie not having an argument with Ennis if he were her husband, because she wasn't a shy retiring woman. That would have been one explosive scene. Of course with two children, many women would have kept quiet, especially if they were stay at home moms. Even now women are counseled against making hasty judgements and ending marriages over infidelity.
Hope I didn't ramble.
Yes, I think that Cassie was in many ways a stronger woman -- and that this would lead to problems had she been married to Ennis. Then again, I wonder if her love for Ennis would eventually cool. Perhaps she would end the same way as Lureen, too engrossed in her career as a nurse to care anymore. I could see her taking on lovers!
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Yes, I think that Cassie was in many ways a stronger woman -- and that this would lead to problems had she been married to Ennis. Then again, I wonder if her love for Ennis would eventually cool. Perhaps she would end the same way as Lureen, too engrossed in her career as a nurse to care anymore. I could see her taking on lovers!
Yes,but I don't imagine her either being like Lureen; occupied in her business and making her own life in all the senses.She had no need to have a good social image before her friends and family as Lureen had,she needn't a "smokescreen" also to hide her marriage's failure before her parents...For me,this is the main difference between the both of them; and also,Cassie's stronger way of being doesn't make me imagine her so quiet and resigned as Alma.Surely,she had fought for recovering Ennis,but not with silence and obedience as Alma did.
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In some ways Alma is the 1950s wife, stay-at-home cooking/looking after children/no ambitions/financially-dependent on her husband while Cassie is much more of a late C20th woman, economically independent, interested in wanting to develop her prospects but quite liking the idea of a man along with all that.
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Look to Ennis's reaction, Cassie and Jack are similar, sexual beings, not wanting to be alone for too long. But Ennis reactions to Cassie being with Carl, was different than his reactions with just the thought of Jack being with another man. Indifference and anger.
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Look to Ennis's reaction, Cassie and Jack are similar, sexual beings, not wanting to be alone for too long. But Ennis reactions to Cassie being with Carl, was different than his reactions with just the thought of Jack being with another man. Indifference and anger.
Yep, Brokeback got that boy by the balls. ^*)
:)
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Interesting comments by MG about Jack and Cassie. They certainly seemed more sexual than the rest of them, and I think Ennis was probably flattered by having Cassie come on to him.
As for WW's comment, I agree that Cassie appears to be more late 20C than Alma -- then again, she probably epitomizes more of the 70s, so this is not very surprising.
I agree mostly with MPJ, although I interpreted the comment on Nursing school as something that hints of ambition. Unlike Alma and like Lureen, she wants an independent career...
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Interesting comments by MG about Jack and Cassie. They certainly seemed more sexual than the rest of them, and I think Ennis was probably flattered by having Cassie come on to him.
As for WW's comment, I agree that Cassie appears to be more late 20C than Alma -- then again, she probably epitomizes more of the 70s, so this is not very surprising.
I agree mostly with MPJ, although I interpreted the comment on Nursing school as something that hints of ambition. Unlike Alma and like Lureen, she wants an independent career...
Yes,but she also wanted a husband.When I said that I didn't imagine her as Lureen,I was referring to the point we were discussing then; her reaction if she had discovered Ennis and Jack's relationship.And I meant that I didn't believe that she hide behind her career to cover his marriage failure before everybody, because she had a social position to maintain,as Lureen did -if she really knew or imagine something about the two men-.It's only in this sense of social hypocrisy than I don't compare Cassie with Lureen,but I do in their independence,greater in both cases than Alma's.
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I found it interesting that she happened to be with that Karl guy when she ran into Ennis at the bus station cafe. Apparently this is not a woman who had problems finding male companionship. Ennis did'nt really seem upset, jeaulous or disappointed. She'd tried to hunt him down leaving notes, inquiring at his job etc..., but Ennis was hiding and did'nt wanna be found.
He had to know she was pursuing him and wanted something serious , meeting his daughter and so forth, but this was doomed before it got off the ground because unbeknownst to her, Ennis's heart was already spoken for.
I don't feel he meant to hurt her, but he was not gonna trade Jack for her either, so he just made himself scare to her. Maybe he should'nt have strung her along like he did or let her down easy, but that would require explaining his need to remain single and "unattached".
She was beautiful and single, and looking for a husband. Again, "puttin the blocks to" may not have meant sex, but perhaps meant pulling in the reins on this relationship with her. Shutting her out, blocking her advances further. He explains this to Jack in response to he question " all this time, your aint found nobody else to marry?". Maybe this was Ennis's way of telling Jack that though he had chances to marry someone, he was having to ward this person off, because Jack was the only one for him after all these yrs. She could cause alot of problems being inquisitive about his need for so much privacy having such an outgoing personality. In this way she and Jack were very much alike.
Like Jack, things had to make sense to her or she'd ask alotta questions including who Jack was. If she found out his secert, she'd talk perhaps to other men in the bar, and Ennis knew it. That would be a nightmare for him... and he could no longer protect Jack. Just a thought.
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I found it interesting that she happened to be with that Karl guy when she ran into Ennis at the bus station cafe. Apparently this is not a woman who had problems finding male companionship. Ennis did'nt really seem upset, jeaulous or disappointed. She'd tried to hunt him down leaving notes, inquiring at his job etc..., but Ennis was hiding and did'nt wanna be found.
He had to know she was pursuing him and wanted something serious , meeting his daughter and so forth, but this was doomed before it got off the ground because unbeknownst to her, Ennis's heart was already spoken for.
I don't feel he meant to hurt her, but he was not gonna trade Jack for her either, so he just made himself scare to her. Maybe he should'nt have strung her along like he did or let her down easy, but that would require explaining his need to remain single and "unattached".
She was beautiful and single, and looking for a husband. Again, "puttin the blocks to" may not have meant sex, but perhaps meant pulling in the reins on this relationship with her. Shutting her out, blocking her advances further. He explains this to Jack in response to he question " all this time, your aint found nobody else to marry?". Maybe this was Ennis's way of telling Jack that though he had chances to marry someone, he was having to ward this person off, because Jack was the only one for him after all these yrs. She could cause alot of problems being inquisitive about his need for so much privacy having such an outgoing personality. In this way she and Jack were very much alike.
Like Jack, things had to make sense to her or she'd ask alotta questions including who Jack was. If she found out his secert, she'd talk perhaps to other men in the bar, and Ennis knew it. That would be a nightmare for him... and he could no longer protect Jack. Just a thought.
Actually in the Spanish traslation "puttin the blocks to" doesn't mean sex. It says "Estoy dandole largas" (Thomas, please put it in English, I know you can), or like you say he was blocking her advances, like saying to her "mmmmm, I'm not ready; I'll think about it, maybe, with time" or "mmm, I'll see, think about it, later."
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I found it interesting that she happened to be with that Karl guy when she ran into Ennis at the bus station cafe. Apparently this is not a woman who had problems finding male companionship. Ennis did'nt really seem upset, jeaulous or disappointed. She'd tried to hunt him down leaving notes, inquiring at his job etc..., but Ennis was hiding and did'nt wanna be found.
He had to know she was pursuing him and wanted something serious , meeting his daughter and so forth, but this was doomed before it got off the ground because unbeknownst to her, Ennis's heart was already spoken for.
I don't feel he meant to hurt her, but he was not gonna trade Jack for her either, so he just made himself scare to her. Maybe he should'nt have strung her along like he did or let her down easy, but that would require explaining his need to remain single and "unattached".
She was beautiful and single, and looking for a husband. Again, "puttin the blocks to" may not have meant sex, but perhaps meant pulling in the reins on this relationship with her. Shutting her out, blocking her advances further. He explains this to Jack in response to he question " all this time, your aint found nobody else to marry?". Maybe this was Ennis's way of telling Jack that though he had chances to marry someone, he was having to ward this person off, because Jack was the only one for him after all these yrs. She could cause alot of problems being inquisitive about his need for so much privacy having such an outgoing personality. In this way she and Jack were very much alike.
Like Jack, things had to make sense to her or she'd ask alotta questions including who Jack was. If she found out his secert, she'd talk perhaps to other men in the bar, and Ennis knew it. That would be a nightmare for him... and he could no longer protect Jack. Just a thought.
An excellent thought, it's good to hear it like this. Quite inspiring in its way.
Thank you. :)
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Yes,but she also wanted a husband.When I said that I didn't imagine her as Lureen,I was referring to the point we were discussing then; her reaction if she had discovered Ennis and Jack's relationship.And I meant that I didn't believe that she hide behind her career to cover his marriage failure before everybody, because she had a social position to maintain,as Lureen did -if she really knew or imagine something about the two men-.It's only in this sense of social hypocrisy than I don't compare Cassie with Lureen,but I do in their independence,greater in both cases than Alma's.
Distinction understood. :)
I guess it depends on whether the relationship would have cooled, as with Jack and Lureen later on -- and I suspect that her ambition and Ennis's lack of it may indeed present itself as a future wedge between tham -- one that would push them apart and cool their regard for each other. We also see a hint of this with Alma, no?
I think that if it did, Cassie struck me as strong enough the weather it all under a mask of indifference.
Still, we should note that Lureen didn't exactly know about Ennis and Jack until the very end -- so that we don't really know how she would have reacted had she known. I still think that there may be similarities between Cassie and Lureen that would have been more obvious had Cassie married Ennis and later on lost interest, as with Lureen. Assuming that she (like Lureen) remained in ignorance of the relationship between Ennis and Jack, her ambitions may provide sufficient impetus to push them apart...
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I found it interesting that she happened to be with that Karl guy when she ran into Ennis at the bus station cafe. Apparently this is not a woman who had problems finding male companionship. Ennis did'nt really seem upset, jeaulous or disappointed. She'd tried to hunt him down leaving notes, inquiring at his job etc..., but Ennis was hiding and did'nt wanna be found.
He had to know she was pursuing him and wanted something serious , meeting his daughter and so forth, but this was doomed before it got off the ground because unbeknownst to her, Ennis's heart was already spoken for.
I don't feel he meant to hurt her, but he was not gonna trade Jack for her either, so he just made himself scare to her. Maybe he should'nt have strung her along like he did or let her down easy, but that would require explaining his need to remain single and "unattached".
She was beautiful and single, and looking for a husband. Again, "puttin the blocks to" may not have meant sex, but perhaps meant pulling in the reins on this relationship with her. Shutting her out, blocking her advances further. He explains this to Jack in response to he question " all this time, your aint found nobody else to marry?". Maybe this was Ennis's way of telling Jack that though he had chances to marry someone, he was having to ward this person off, because Jack was the only one for him after all these yrs. She could cause alot of problems being inquisitive about his need for so much privacy having such an outgoing personality. In this way she and Jack were very much alike.
Like Jack, things had to make sense to her or she'd ask alotta questions including who Jack was. If she found out his secert, she'd talk perhaps to other men in the bar, and Ennis knew it. That would be a nightmare for him... and he could no longer protect Jack. Just a thought.
I agree that "puttin the blocks" meant more like reining in the relationship -- or not brining it to the next level, which she clearly wanted.
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Distinction understood. :)
I guess it depends on whether the relationship would have cooled, as with Jack and Lureen later on -- and I suspect that her ambition and Ennis's lack of it may indeed present itself as a future wedge between tham -- one that would push them apart and cool their regard for each other. We also see a hint of this with Alma, no?
I think that if it did, Cassie struck me as strong enough the weather it all under a mask of indifference.
Still, we should note that Lureen didn't exactly know about Ennis and Jack until the very end -- so that we don't really know how she would have reacted had she known. I still think that there may be similarities between Cassie and Lureen that would have been more obvious had Cassie married Ennis and later on lost interest, as with Lureen. Assuming that she (like Lureen) remained in ignorance of the relationship between Ennis and Jack, her ambitions may provide sufficient impetus to push them apart...
Yes,you're right: it depends on whether their relationship would have cooled or not.And it's obvious that this lack of ambition on Ennis side would have been a factor to get it sooner or later.But I see Cassie as a fighter,with a high image of what love and commitment is,just like Jack; so,I don't see her either as able to show herself indifferent if their love for Ennis had died down.But able to fight,to make an "open war" even and only in the end,being able to separate for living her own life by herself.
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Yes,you're right: it depends on whether their relationship would have cooled or not.And it's obvious that this lack of ambition on Ennis side would have been a factor to get it sooner or later.But I see Cassie as a fighter,with a high image of what love and commitment is,just like Jack; so,I don't see her either as able to show herself indifferent if their love for Ennis had died down.But able to fight,to make an "open war" even and only in the end,being able to separate for living her own life by herself.
I do think that she is a stronger woman than Alma, and knows exactly what she wants (in this aspect, she is very much like Lureen.) I see your point about her not accepting things indifferently if she were a fighter. But it all depends on whether she would still think it would be worth fighting for in the end. After all, she did give up on Ennis in the end -- and we really can't fault her entirely for this.
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I do think that she is a stronger woman than Alma, and knows exactly what she wants (in this aspect, she is very much like Lureen.) I see your point about her not accepting things indifferently if she were a fighter. But it all depends on whether she would still think it would be worth fighting for in the end. After all, she did give up on Ennis in the end -- and we really can't fault her entirely for this.
Yes,but it's not the same being at the beginning of a relationship,whose expectations are a mystery,than, being married with the man you love,seeing that you have someone to struggle against...In this case I really see her as a fighter,because-as you remark-she knows very well what she wants and how to get it,more in Jack's style than Alma,of course.When she had realised that her fight didn't already worth,I see her living independently but openly;neither submissive to fight in her own way to recover him,as Alma,nor living together before society,but with separate lives in all the senses,as Lureen.
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Ennis could have married her but he was not going to fool himself again into thinking he could live without Jack's presence in his life by marrying a woman even more apt to question his relationship than Alma.., but I think she eventually got the message he was trying to send. It was pointless to pursue Ennis further when he does'nt respond in kind , opting to *hide out* from her, but I think she just wanted an explaination why, a fair question, but one Ennis really could never truthfully answer for her. .
Fact is, Ennis knew she was wasting her time , she did'nt. She fell in love with him for real. It's ironic her story so closely matches Jack's , both have Ennis as their object of love and affection to settle down with but Ennis could not commit fully to either. In a different time , in a different place, if Ennis had his choice he'd marry Jack if he could be left alone in peace. That's another fanfic, but It's something she could never understand.
Unlike Jack, she moved on, gave up and that's something Jack could never do. Regardless of Cassie's pursuits and Alma's marriage to him, all the twisting, turning ,roads led back to Jack for Ennis. he was not going to give him up no matter how beautiful they were or how committed , or in love they were with him or unfortunatly how hurt they got. Both of these women were devastated , but eventually moved on. He was in love with Jack and his heart belonged to him. Anyone else who posed a threat to removing Jack from his life was out of luck from the start. Only they understood what they meant to each other imo. Thanx.
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I think Ennis really consiously "used Cassie to a certain extent, meaning that I think he never really intended to cross the line once more as far as marriage was concerned. I think the same forces that stymied Jack were also at work with Cassie. It suited Ennis to make them believe that there was some hope. What do you think?
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I think Ennis really consiously "used Cassie to a certain extent, meaning that I think he never really intended to cross the line once more as far as marriage was concerned. I think the same forces that stymied Jack were also at work with Cassie. It suited Ennis to make them believe that there was some hope. What do you think?
Ennis had no choice but to string her along, because of his secret love for Jack. He gave her hope but it was a false hope for the most part. She fell in love with the Ennis he allowed her to see, For Ennis, she was the perfect cover between meetings.
For Jack , he had a bond of love deep in his heart. He could take from Jack and very much apply it to himself. His was a selfish love in the sense that he got alot of himself from Jack . Jack was the part of him that could love, give hope, and find freedom. He was Jack's cowboy, and Jack was his "lil darlin" . He had no choice but to give Jack hope. That hope he gave Jack was the same hope he had to keep Jack's presence in his life. Marrying Cassie would only interfere with that , therefore hurt Jack. Ennis had been there, done that once already. Why make that same mistake twice?
Cassie and Jack both pursued Ennis. They both saw him vulnerable and available to what they were offering but the balance shifted advantage... Jack...cuz Ennis loved him and Jack had sacrificed so much and invested for so long in Ennis. Jack was Brokeback, Cassie was not. Ennis knew there was no real hope for him and Cassie in the end. She was an "outsider" really like everyone else. Jack and Ennis shared a commonality in a secret love from society , including Cassie. My take.
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Ennis had no choice but to string her along, because of his secret love for Jack. He gave her hope but it was a false hope for the most part. She fell in love with the Ennis he allowed her to see, For Ennis, she was the perfect cover between meetings.
For Jack , he had a bond of love deep in his heart. He could take from Jack and very much apply it to himself. His was a selfish love in the sense that he got alot of himself from Jack . Jack was the part of him that could love, give hope, and find freedom. He was Jack's cowboy, and Jack was his "lil darlin" . He had no choice but to give Jack hope. That hope he gave Jack was the same hope he had to keep Jack's presence in his life. Marrying Cassie would only interfere with that , therefore hurt Jack. Ennis had been there, done that once already. Why make that same mistake twice?
Cassie and Jack both pursued Ennis. They both saw him vulnerable and available to what they were offering but the balance shifted advantage... Jack...cuz Ennis loved him and Jack had sacrificed so much and invested for so long in Ennis. Jack was Brokeback, Cassie was not. Ennis knew there was no real hope for him and Cassie in the end. She was an "outsider" really like everyone else. Jack and Ennis shared a commonality in a secret love from society , including Cassie. My take.
This true, beautiful, and disturbing. I fear the same could be applied to Jack. The difference is that he needed Jack, he couldn't live without him. But had no intentions of living with him like he had no intentions of marrying Cassie. And for me, though he never understood all of the sacrifices Jack made for him until the end. His love, was indeed the selfish kind. Obsessive, possessive.
This not a knock on Ennis, he put himself in such an untenable position, he no choice but to keep Jack's hope alive, in order not to lose him.
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This true, beautiful, and disturbing. I fear the same could be applied to Jack. The difference is that he needed Jack, he couldn't live without him. But had no intentions of living with him like he had no intentions of marrying Cassie. And for me, though he never understood all of the sacrifices Jack made for him until the end. His love, was indeed the selfish kind. Obsessive, possessive.
This not a knock on Ennis, he put himself in such an untenable position, he no choice but to keep Jack's hope alive, in order not to lose him.
Your exactly right MG as usual. It's what'd disturbing about Ennis. What he kept within was more valuable than what he presented to society with Cassie. He brought her with him to pick up his daughter, who at least knew he was'nt "the marrying kind". Though he hid Jack away, it was Jack who he could'nt live without. It was Jack he showed his possesive jeaulousy about, not Cassie. That Karl guy with Cassie did'nt seem to phase him at all. He had no intentions of marrying her, but had all intentions of keeping Jack. He did what he had to do to maintain Jack's presence in his life.
I don't feel he set out to hurt Jack or Cassie, he did'nt create the homophobic society, but he had to live in it the best way he knew how to keep he and Jack safe. Ironically because of this, he was not there to protect Jack when he needed him most. Jack paid the ultimate price , but so did Ennis. He was the one left living with the choices he made.
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The final confrontation did reveal Ennis to be possessive, IMO. It is surprising to note that although he was very much non-commital to Jack, he did have very distinct expectations about their relationship. But this didn't exactly apply to Cassie, no? Wheh she showed up with Carl, it seemd to me at first glance that Ennis didn't seem to care much, although I should guess that it must have affected him a bit.
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Ennis had no choice but to string her along, because of his secret love for Jack. He gave her hope but it was a false hope for the most part. She fell in love with the Ennis he allowed her to see, For Ennis, she was the perfect cover between meetings.
For Jack , he had a bond of love deep in his heart. He could take from Jack and very much apply it to himself. His was a selfish love in the sense that he got alot of himself from Jack . Jack was the part of him that could love, give hope, and find freedom. He was Jack's cowboy, and Jack was his "lil darlin" . He had no choice but to give Jack hope. That hope he gave Jack was the same hope he had to keep Jack's presence in his life. Marrying Cassie would only interfere with that , therefore hurt Jack. Ennis had been there, done that once already. Why make that same mistake twice?
Cassie and Jack both pursued Ennis. They both saw him vulnerable and available to what they were offering but the balance shifted advantage... Jack...cuz Ennis loved him and Jack had sacrificed so much and invested for so long in Ennis. Jack was Brokeback, Cassie was not. Ennis knew there was no real hope for him and Cassie in the end. She was an "outsider" really like everyone else. Jack and Ennis shared a commonality in a secret love from society , including Cassie. My take.
This true, beautiful, and disturbing. I fear the same could be applied to Jack. The difference is that he needed Jack, he couldn't live without him. But had no intentions of living with him like he had no intentions of marrying Cassie. And for me, though he never understood all of the sacrifices Jack made for him until the end. His love, was indeed the selfish kind. Obsessive, possessive.
This not a knock on Ennis, he put himself in such an untenable position, he no choice but to keep Jack's hope alive, in order not to lose him.
Your exactly right MG as usual. It's what'd disturbing about Ennis. What he kept within was more valuable than what he presented to society with Cassie. He brought her with him to pick up his daughter, who at least knew he was'nt "the marrying kind". Though he hid Jack away, it was Jack who he could'nt live without.It was Jack he showed his possesive jeaulousy about, not Cassie. That Karl guy with Cassie did'nt seem to phase him at all. He had no intentions of marrying her, but had all intentions of keeping Jack. He did what he had to do to maintain Jack's presence in his life.
I don't feel he set out to hurt Jack or Cassie, he did'nt create the homophobic society, but he had to live in it the best way he knew how to keep he and Jack safe. Ironically because of this, he was not there to protect Jack when he needed him most. Jack paid the ultimate price , but so did Ennis. He was the one left living with the choices he made.
Beautiful, as always girls!! I totally agree. You said all so well!! Thank you. ^f^
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The final confrontation did reveal Ennis to be possessive, IMO. It is surprising to note that although he was very much non-commital to Jack, he did have very distinct expectations about their relationship. But this didn't exactly apply to Cassie, no? Wheh she showed up with Carl, it seemd to me at first glance that Ennis didn't seem to care much, although I should guess that it must have affected him a bit.
He did take note that Cassie had moved on so quickly , I mean Karl did "talk". and well...he was'nt no fun anyway.
But why should Ennis care? He was'nt lookin for anything serious with her. He liked her yes but had it been Jack showing up like that with say Randall? ...He would have been ALOT more affected. Ennis was'nt conciously calculating but he had to feel somewhat of a releif that Cassie was moving on without him never having to explain his behavior of *hiding out and making himself scarce to her. Though she was in love with Ennis, she never really knew that Ennis could never love or need her the way he needed Jack. Karl may have been a blessing in disguise and never knew the role he played for Ennis. At least she was'nt going to spend her life in lonliness, pining for a lost love because of what he had to do. Might be some solace to him for stringing her along. The two different reactions to the loss of relationships Jack and Cassie is very telling. Did'nt see him doubling over in agony after this loss... or Alma. Only when he felt he was loosing Jack did it affect him in a gut-wrenching breakdown of his emotions. Goes to show who meant more.
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He did take note that Cassie had moved on so quickly , I mean Karl did "talk". and well...he was'nt no fun anyway.
But why should Ennis care? He was'nt lookin for anything serious with her. He liked her yes but had it been Jack showing up like that with say Randall? ...He would have been ALOT more affected. Ennis was'nt conciously calculating but he had to feel somewhat of a releif that Cassie was moving on without him never having to explain his behavior of *hiding out and making himself scarce to her. Though she was in love with Ennis, she never really knew that Ennis could never love or need her the way he needed Jack. Karl may have been a blessing in disguise and never knew the role he played for Ennis. At least she was'nt going to spend her life in lonliness, pining for a lost love because of what he had to do. Might be some solace to him for stringing her along. The two different reactions to the loss of relationships Jack and Cassie is very telling. Did'nt see him doubling over in agony after this loss... or Alma. Only when he felt he was loosing Jack did it affect him in a gut-wrenching breakdown of his emotions. Goes to show who meant more.
I find myself being put right in the scenes or certain parts of my own history, with some of your posts. Brings out the points of the story and the emotions of my own. Thanks for sharing..
:c)
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He did take note that Cassie had moved on so quickly , I mean Karl did "talk". and well...he was'nt no fun anyway.
But why should Ennis care? He was'nt lookin for anything serious with her. He liked her yes but had it been Jack showing up like that with say Randall? ...He would have been ALOT more affected. Ennis was'nt conciously calculating but he had to feel somewhat of a releif that Cassie was moving on without him never having to explain his behavior of *hiding out and making himself scarce to her. Though she was in love with Ennis, she never really knew that Ennis could never love or need her the way he needed Jack. Karl may have been a blessing in disguise and never knew the role he played for Ennis. At least she was'nt going to spend her life in lonliness, pining for a lost love because of what he had to do. Might be some solace to him for stringing her along. The two different reactions to the loss of relationships Jack and Cassie is very telling. Did'nt see him doubling over in agony after this loss... or Alma. Only when he felt he was loosing Jack did it affect him in a gut-wrenching breakdown of his emotions. Goes to show who meant more.
I find myself being put right in the scenes or certain parts of my own history, with some of your posts. Brings out the points of the story and the emotions of my own. Thanks for sharing..
:c)
BUt somehow, I do sense that Ennis didn't really want to hurt Cassie, although perhaps it was inevitable, given how he truly felt for her. I think in the end, there was more pity and guilt than true affection, although I don't doubt that in his own strange way, Ennis cared for Cassie.
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BUt somehow, I do sense that Ennis didn't really want to hurt Cassie, although perhaps it was inevitable, given how he truly felt for her. I think in the end, there was more pity and guilt than true affection, although I don't doubt that in his own strange way, Ennis cared for Cassie.
I quote that. :)
I too think what was most palpable was everything Jack, but still, in that cafe, his stray from wanting to hurt others was also his stray from Cassie. We could see it wasn't mapped out inside how he would respond to Cassir or let her go; he didn't want to hurt her. He just couldn't be helped, I think.
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For the most part, Ennis was a true loner....with secrets only he knew about. He could ratioalize things out in his mind with no one to interfere concerning his rationalizing and not have anyone interfere with it. Call him selfish, but I think he wanted to set his own pace where events occured in his life. It all centered around his relationship with Jack. Sooner or later this thing with Cassie was gonna require a higher level of intimacy such as a marriage proposal or an expectation of at least an declaration of love for her. I think he saw it coming and cut her off. I feel he cared for her yes, but only as a friend, some one to pass his time with and have a little fun. But when he saw where this may interfere in his relationship with Jack he rationalized. Either let this thing continue with her and let it get to a certain point of no return or slow things way down to something that was not going to go anywhere. He hid out, she had to hunt him down without sucess. He was caught off guard the day she ren into him with Karl in the cafe and had no real explaination for her except he was "no fun anyway". He knew she would'nt understand his real reasons for dissing her like he did but he could'nt allow this to interfere in his unresolved feelings and love for Jack. He had been through this once before and even though she would have made a great cover, he knew she was no Alma. She would have been unafraid to confront him which would require some explaining. He was'nt ready nor willing to deal with that drama, so he lets it drop. Don't think he set out conciously to hurt anybody, but she was fun for him and was'nt planning on falling in love with her or she with him. MO
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As usual, great posts! I always wondered if Ennis and Cassie ever slept together, or if he never let her get that close. I think she was in love with him, but she was just a friend to him (someone to spend time with). I think that by the look Ennis had in the cafe before she came in that he was totally broken about his fight with Jack. He would have broken it off with her anyway. He was possibly glad that Cassie found someone else IMO. Back to the "marriage" ? that Jack posed...I thought it was more or less "small talk"-Jack knew that Ennis would never be with another man, although he may have been wondering if he was using a woman as a screen. Jack needed for Ennis to know how much being away from him wore him down. He was hoping for some sort of acknowledgement on Ennis' part, but unfortunately never got it. Jack was always clawing for more of Ennis, but Ennis was just too afraid. Never enough time, never enough. They both sacrificed a lot to be with each other for so little time together.
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I quote that. :)
I too think what was most palpable was everything Jack, but still, in that cafe, his stray from wanting to hurt others was also his stray from Cassie. We could see it wasn't mapped out inside how he would respond to Cassir or let her go; he didn't want to hurt her. He just couldn't be helped, I think.
I think he knew that it was inevitable -- that he was going to hurt Cassie. But again, fear got in the way...
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For the most part, Ennis was a true loner....with secrets only he knew about. He could ratioalize things out in his mind with no one to interfere concerning his rationalizing and not have anyone interfere with it. Call him selfish, but I think he wanted to set his own pace where events occured in his life. It all centered around his relationship with Jack. Sooner or later this thing with Cassie was gonna require a higher level of intimacy such as a marriage proposal or an expectation of at least an declaration of love for her. I think he saw it coming and cut her off. I feel he cared for her yes, but only as a friend, some one to pass his time with and have a little fun. But when he saw where this may interfere in his relationship with Jack he rationalized. Either let this thing continue with her and let it get to a certain point of no return or slow things way down to something that was not going to go anywhere. He hid out, she had to hunt him down without sucess. He was caught off guard the day she ren into him with Karl in the cafe and had no real explaination for her except he was "no fun anyway". He knew she would'nt understand his real reasons for dissing her like he did but he could'nt allow this to interfere in his unresolved feelings and love for Jack. He had been through this once before and even though she would have made a great cover, he knew she was no Alma. She would have been unafraid to confront him which would require some explaining. He was'nt ready nor willing to deal with that drama, so he lets it drop. Don't think he set out conciously to hurt anybody, but she was fun for him and was'nt planning on falling in love with her or she with him. MO
I think Ennis was very much prone to the same problem all of us are guilty of at one time or another: the tendency to compartmentalize and leave things unresolved because we don't really know how to reconcile the inherent contradictions.
I think that this is only human. Many things in life do end up this way because they cannot be neatly placed alongside other things in our life. It's one more way we can connect with the character, and see ourselves in their thoughts and actions...
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As usual, great posts! I always wondered if Ennis and Cassie ever slept together, or if he never let her get that close. I think she was in love with him, but she was just a friend to him (someone to spend time with). I think that by the look Ennis had in the cafe before she came in that he was totally broken about his fight with Jack. He would have broken it off with her anyway. He was possibly glad that Cassie found someone else IMO. Back to the "marriage" ? that Jack posed...I thought it was more or less "small talk"-Jack knew that Ennis would never be with another man, although he may have been wondering if he was using a woman as a screen. Jack needed for Ennis to know how much being away from him wore him down. He was hoping for some sort of acknowledgement on Ennis' part, but unfortunately never got it. Jack was always clawing for more of Ennis, but Ennis was just too afraid. Never enough time, never enough. They both sacrificed a lot to be with each other for so little time together.
You know, in the screenplay, I assumed that this could have happened, because the ss implied that the cheap white wine he drank with Jr. was a remnamt from the days with Cassie. So I would assume that this implies that Cassie stayed with him sometimes...
And yes, underneath all the small talk and the probing, I do think Jack invariably let it be known that he was tired and lonely without being with Ennis.
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I agree, Thomas, that Cassie and Ennis did have a relationship of some sort, including sex. While Ennis prefered sex with Jack, he wasn't a monk, and Cassie was certainly willing. I think Jack was wondering if Ennis was having a relationship with anyone else, and also realized that Ennis needed someone, even if it wasn't the love of his life. Ennis's response also makes it quite evident that there was something between Cassie and him; obviously they had discussed the future -- her going to school.
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I agree, Thomas, that Cassie and Ennis did have a relationship of some sort, including sex. While Ennis prefered sex with Jack, he wasn't a monk, and Cassie was certainly willing. I think Jack was wondering if Ennis was having a relationship with anyone else, and also realized that Ennis needed someone, even if it wasn't the love of his life. Ennis's response also makes it quite evident that there was something between Cassie and him; obviously they had discussed the future -- her going to school.
It is interesting, too, that Jack never pursued the subject, as if he didn't care that Ennis found someone else in his life. If he had asked more questions, showed more interests, he would have known that Cassie asserted herself into Ennis' life. I don't think Jack ever asked Ennis what it is that he wanted, except the couple times, after the reunion, and after the divorce. The rest of the time, they just assumed that they knew what each other wanted. It is the danger of over familiarity. They are so good at knowing and feeling what the other person needs in the little daily things, and fulfilling those needs, but that closeness of friendship does not extend to the bigger more important issues. They never discussed the really important stuff, and always ended up arguing or something, when they tried, like the riverside scenes.
They seemed to always lived in the present, till next meeting... But nothing longer term than that. That's why Jack's "I did once." hurt so much. It points to the emptiness of their twenty years. Ennis knew that at that moment, he let slipped the opportunity of a lifetime. And when Jack continued to say that "That's all we have, boy" he broke down.
All this time, he ain't found anyone else, because Ennis was waiting for Jack to dream that dream again.
I'd like to think that if they made it to their November hunting trip, Ennis will be the assertive one and propose something of his own to Jack. Just my wishful thinking, I know.
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Thanks lamusica and lance.
I do think that there was a relationship between Cassie and Ennis, and that Jack probably half-expected it from Ennis -- to be involved with a woman. And yes, there is that danger of being overly familiar to a point that one basically assumes without much resistance or affirmation. I do think this was a crucual element in what finally led to the final confrontation.
And yes, had they hooked up in November, I could see Ennis perhaps proposing a change -- but with the comment in the ss that things got torqued back to almost where they were, I am not sure how significant a change it would have been. But the word "almost" gives us hope...
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Could be that Jack was speaking to the disillustion and commitment ( or lack of) in their lives concerning marriage as an institution. It's not the first time Jack has questioned Ennis's choices in marriage ("you and Alma, That's a life"?) Though his own marriage to Lureen is still intact after many years, it leaves much to be desired. Ennis has also questioned how Jack's marriage is going. ( "normal and all?).
Ennis has not fully committed to Alma , Cassie or Jack in a traditional way. No long term stability or plans to have it in his life. I feel Jack is asking if Ennis is capable of commiting fully to anyone, including himself. His relationship with Jack is as close as it came to anything long term, and yet, still there is no reason givin to Jack that this will be taken to a higher level on a permanent basis. On top of all his other fears concerning his relationship with another man, could Ennis be one of those men who just has a fear of commitment? An inability to share fully with another human being on a permanent basis? Perhaps deep inside, Ennis never learned how to accept unconditional love. That it really could not happen to him.
Certainly, he loved Jack, but really, could he let love in? in order to learn to give unconditional love? Yes, he feels he is "nuthin and nowhere cause a Jack" but in reality , he is something and somewhere because of Jack, he is in love deeper than he has ever felt. That's not a fault, that is a commitment and sacrifice to be with the one he loves just begging to be relished and appreciated by him. Why could'nt he see what was right before his eyes? Marrying another woman just was'nt in the cards for him, but neither was putting his life in perspective and seeing that it was Jack who was the the reason he failed to commit to his other relationships with Alma and Cassie. They loved him too, but for him, Jack was the real deal. Yet he could'nt give into that love either on a permant basis. Just sayin and askin.....
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Thanks lamusica and lance.
I do think that there was a relationship between Cassie and Ennis, and that Jack probably half-expected it from Ennis -- to be involved with a woman. And yes, there is that danger of being overly familiar to a point that one basically assumes without much resistance or affirmation. I do think this was a crucual element in what finally led to the final confrontation.
And yes, had they hooked up in November, I could see Ennis perhaps proposing a change -- but with the comment in the ss that things got torqued back to almost where they were, I am not sure how significant a change it would have been. But the word "almost" gives us hope...
Yes, and it is this "almost", this hope, that, I believe, led Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry to add Cassie into the movie, and created the diner scene. With the diner scene, there is no torqued back to where it was. Ennis was lifted to a different plane. Even before that, Ennis was beginning to cut ties with Cassie, to focus on Jack. Yes, I'd like to think that hope guides him....
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Could be that Jack was speaking to the disillustion and commitment ( or lack of) in their lives concerning marriage as an institution. It's not the first time Jack has questioned Ennis's choices in marriage ("you and Alma, That's a life"?) Though his own marriage to Lureen is still intact after many years, it leaves much to be desired. Ennis has also questioned how Jack's marriage is going. ( "normal and all?).
Ennis has not fully committed to Alma , Cassie or Jack in a traditional way. No long term stability or plans to have it in his life. I feel Jack is asking if Ennis is capable of commiting fully to anyone, including himself. His relationship with Jack is as close as it came to anything long term, and yet, still there is no reason givin to Jack that this will be taken to a higher level on a permanent basis. On top of all his other fears concerning his relationship with another man, could Ennis be one of those men who just has a fear of commitment? An inability to share fully with another human being on a permanent basis? Perhaps deep inside, Ennis never learned how to accept unconditional love. That it really could not happen to him.
Certainly, he loved Jack, but really, could he let love in? in order to learn to give unconditional love? Yes, he feels he is "nuthin and nowhere cause a Jack" but in reality , he is something and somewhere because of Jack, he is in love deeper than he has ever felt. That's not a fault, that is a commitment and sacrifice to be with the one he loves just begging to be relished and appreciated by him. Why could'nt he see what was right before his eyes? Marrying another woman just was'nt in the cards for him, but neither was putting his life in perspective and seeing that it was Jack who was the the reason he failed to commit to his other relationships with Alma and Cassie. They loved him too, but for him, Jack was the real deal. Yet he could'nt give into that love either on a permant basis. Just sayin and askin.....
I think Jack and Alma expected a degree of commitment from Ennis that they never got. And Ennis knew full well that he couldn't give it to Cassie, which is I think why he delayed. Marriage or friendship wasn't enough to make Ennis give 100% of himself, because he probably assumed that he couldn't do it without hurting someone.
I think he tried to be fair to everyone, but ended up pleasing nobody.
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Yes, and it is this "almost", this hope, that, I believe, led Diana Ossana and Larry McMurtry to add Cassie into the movie, and created the diner scene. With the diner scene, there is no torqued back to where it was. Ennis was lifted to a different plane. Even before that, Ennis was beginning to cut ties with Cassie, to focus on Jack. Yes, I'd like to think that hope guides him....
Yes, somehow I felt that the last confrontation had a direct effect on Ennis in that he recognized that he had to stop playing with Cassie's heart. Even though he knew that he would hurt her, he realized that in the long run, he was doing her a favor.
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Yes, somehow I felt that the last confrontation had a direct effect on Ennis in that he recognized that he had to stop playing with Cassie's heart. Even though he knew that he would hurt her, he realized that in the long run, he was doing her a favor.
I agree in that Ennis decided to cut ties with Cassie,even before the confrontation scene;he little by little had realised than,in his innest self,wasn't able to love a woman completely,to correspond her the way he saw at the end she needed.But I feel-or I'd like to know for sure...-that this last argument with Jack made him understand that his real love was for him.We'll never know it,but I've always thought that maybe the meeting in November had carried a rebuilding of their relationship,because the ball was in Ennis roof,and his state of mind had suffered a shock for good...
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It is interesting, too, that Jack never pursued the subject, as if he didn't care that Ennis found someone else in his life.
I think this was a big part of Jack. He didn't mind that Ennis had someone else -- another woman -- a wife. He really didn't care. Now, had he suspected Ennis had another man, who knows what he would have done?
I think Jack felt free to go to Mexico, because he was just getting laid -- nothing more, and he could accept that from Ennis, too. He wasn't MAKING LOVE with those other men. That was something different. That's why Lureen and Alma just didn't rile Jack up with jealousy. They were only there for physical gratification, and to make the boys a home. No LOVE involved there. And I think that's why Jack hesitated with Randall. He knew if he got involved with Randall, there would be more than just sex involved, and he wasn't too wild about starting anything more with another guy.
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I think this was a big part of Jack. He didn't mind that Ennis had someone else -- another woman -- a wife. He really didn't care. Now, had he suspected Ennis had another man, who knows what he would have done?
I think Jack felt free to go to Mexico, because he was just getting laid -- nothing more, and he could accept that from Ennis, too. He wasn't MAKING LOVE with those other men. That was something different. That's why Lureen and Alma just didn't rile Jack up with jealousy. They were only there for physical gratification, and to make the boys a home. No LOVE involved there. And I think that's why Jack hesitated with Randall. He knew if he got involved with Randall, there would be more than just sex involved, and he wasn't too wild about starting anything more with another guy.
I totally agree with you!!! ^f^
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I agree in that Ennis decided to cut ties with Cassie,even before the confrontation scene;he little by little had realised than,in his innest self,wasn't able to love a woman completely,to correspond her the way he saw at the end she needed.But I feel-or I'd like to know for sure...-that this last argument with Jack made him understand that his real love was for him.We'll never know it,but I've always thought that maybe the meeting in November had carried a rebuilding of their relationship,because the ball was in Ennis roof,and his state of mind had suffered a shock for good...
I think that the failed marriage with Alma also weighed heavily on Ennis, especially in the matter of Cassie. But Jack's anger clearly woke Ennis up to another aspect: that it would be unfair to commit to someone if you knowingly knew that you loved somebody else.
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I think that the failed marriage with Alma also weighed heavily on Ennis, especially in the matter of Cassie. But Jack's anger clearly woke Ennis up to another aspect: that it would be unfair to commit to someone if you knowingly knew that you loved somebody else.
I suppose that Ennis hefted the pros and the cons of having a woman by his side:on one hand,the "respectability" before society and its rules and on the other hand,living one more time the failed experience with Alma with another woman who would be another victim.And he saw how,no matter how many fears he had,committing with someone else than Jack wasn't the real and proper solution.Even if it'd be a "disguise" against his true feelings,he understood that it'd be also a disguise for these feelings; and,what's worse,for this another person's feelings too in the end.
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I suppose that Ennis hefted the pros and the cons of having a woman by his side:on one hand,the "respectability" before society and its rules and on the other hand,living one more time the failed experience with Alma with another woman who would be another victim.And he saw how,no matter how many fears he had,committing with someone else than Jack wasn't the real and proper solution.Even if it'd be a "disguise" against his true feelings,he understood that it'd be also a disguise for these feelings; and,what's worse,for this another person's feelings too in the end.
Precisely! And I think in this regard, Ennis was more careful than Jack, since a commitment to Cassie would have meant something to Ennis. To give Ennis his due, he wasn't playing lightly with Cassie, I think. He truly didn't want to hurt her, IMO.
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I agree. Again, Ennis had went the *traditional* marriage route before. Alot of people got hurt and I think he realized that and cared about it. I don't feel he purposely set out to hurt anybody, and to repeat the same mistake again?...nah. A woman could have a place in his life, but it would be based upon tha Ennis he showed to society. and that's not the real Ennis.
I just feel he could'nt allow himself Cassie, or any other woman to get pulled back into a situation where so much tension and energy is required to keep up some false romantic notion of love for them while Jack is still very much in the picture.
He could have easily used Cassie for a *cover*, but what happens when Cassie objects strongly to the fishing trips? Wonders why Jack drives all the way from Texas to go fishing as Lureen did? Could he trust her to keep quiet? Don't think so. She was'nt Alma. Why should he upset his own apple cart and actually invite trouble?
He let her think she had been *jilted* in a traditional way and used himself as "no fun anyway" to beak this thing off. Yes, though I believe he cared for her, he was'nt gettin into another marriage. He had all the love he could handle in a marriage of the heart with Jack. It would almost seem like cheating on Jack for him at this point especially after turning down Jack's proposal.
She was *fun*, but I think he weighed the consquences of his actions and imo did the right thing by her. Could have been more tactful, the way he did it, but this is Ennis Del Mar, not Romeo. He was not good at fancy explainations. MO.
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He let her think she had been *jilted* in a traditional way and used himself as "no fun anyway" to beak this thing off. Yes, though I believe he cared for her, he was'nt gettin into another marriage. He had all the love he could handle in a marriage of the heart with Jack. It would almost seem like cheating on Jack for him at this point especially after turning down Jack's proposal.
She was *fun*, but I think he weighed the consquences of his actions and imo did the right thing by her. Could have been more tactful, the way he did it, but this is Ennis Del Mar, not Romeo. He was not good at fancy explainations. MO.
Awww. <^( <^( <^(
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I agree. Again, Ennis had went the *traditional* marriage route before. Alot of people got hurt and I think he realized that and cared about it. I don't feel he purposely set out to hurt anybody, and to repeat the same mistake again?...nah. A woman could have a place in his life, but it would be based upon tha Ennis he showed to society. and that's not the real Ennis.
I just feel he could'nt allow himself Cassie, or any other woman to get pulled back into a situation where so much tension and energy is required to keep up some false romantic notion of love for them while Jack is still very much in the picture.
He could have easily used Cassie for a *cover*, but what happens when Cassie objects strongly to the fishing trips? Wonders why Jack drives all the way from Texas to go fishing as Lureen did? Could he trust her to keep quiet? Don't think so. She was'nt Alma. Why should he upset his own apple cart and actually invite trouble?
He let her think she had been *jilted* in a traditional way and used himself as "no fun anyway" to beak this thing off. Yes, though I believe he cared for her, he was'nt gettin into another marriage. He had all the love he could handle in a marriage of the heart with Jack. It would almost seem like cheating on Jack for him at this point especially after turning down Jack's proposal.
She was *fun*, but I think he weighed the consquences of his actions and imo did the right thing by her. Could have been more tactful, the way he did it, but this is Ennis Del Mar, not Romeo. He was not good at fancy explainations. MO.
Aintfooling, I agree with you 100% there. Ennis sure ain't good at fancy explanations, and he tried to do right by her. He knew, after the last meeting with Jack, when everything came on the table, that he could have no one else but him. Ennis just couldn't bring himself to say no to Cassie (or Jack for that matter) so he just stopped seeing her, replying to her notes, and stopped calling her. It's crude and almost cruel, but as you said, that's our Ennis, the locked jaw communicator. It's not until after Lightning Flat, that he began to loosen up, and was able to joke around with Alma Jr a bit. His lack of ability to easily communicate the simplest messages highlight even more, his easy friendship with Jack. But even there, his abilities were lifted only so much. There were still times when he could not get the words out. This emotional handicap makes those magical moments when his face light up with smiles and laughter, almost miraculous. In fact, they were miraculous to Ennis, but as he realized in the diner, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." It wasn't just fun that pulled him to Jack. It was love, the completion of two souls touching. And Ennis knew that no matter how much fun he had with Cassie, the two of them just didn't have what he and Jack shared, the thing with no rein.
Thanks, aintfooling. I love what you wrote and I highlighted above. It really made sense of Ennis for me.
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Well said LC, Ennis struggling, punching out his words and emotions . . .
. . . . But even there, his abilities were lifted only so much. There were still times when he could not get the words out. This emotional handicap makes those magical moments when his face light up with smiles and laughter, almost miraculous. . . . And Ennis knew that no matter how much fun he had with Cassie, the two of them just didn't have what he and Jack shared, the thing with no rein.
Reminds me of the lyrics of the Ronan Keating song "When you say nothing at all" which was turned into a great Ennis/Jack video by johnboy:
It's amazing How you can speak Right to my heart,
Without saying a word, You can light up the dark,
Try as I may I could never explain
What I hear when You don't say a thing
No one else to marry? There was hardly anyone else he could even communicate to other than Jack, and most of that was non-verbal.
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Well said LC, Ennis struggling, punching out his words and emotions . . .
Reminds me of the lyrics of the Ronan Keating song "When you say nothing at all" which was turned into a great Ennis/Jack video by johnboy:
It's amazing How you can speak Right to my heart,
Without saying a word, You can light up the dark,
Try as I may I could never explain
What I hear when You don't say a thing
No one else to marry? There was hardly anyone else he could even communicate to other than Jack, and most of that was non-verbal.
It was like that from the start, standing in front of Aguirre's trailer, that non verbal totally visual foreplay, and then you could see Jack's aggressive nature, as Ennis passively looks away aroused(?), and timidly looks over to Jack when he thinks he not looking. Even stand in the trailer Ennis steps to the side, Jack in the middle of the floor, Ennis lets him then and there take the lead, in what to be something neither could even dreamt of. Maybe that first meeting set the stage for FNIT, Jack took lead, Ennis yielded to it, even he got Jack on all fours, Jack got exactly what he wanted to get, the pleasure of it, and the price he had to pay for had not even occurred to him, and didn't see it coming. Isn't there always a price we have to pay for what we want?
Jack was looking for his pay off of some kind when he asked Ennis that question, Ennis had to now pay his bill. Jack was handing Ennis his check, and was wondering why Ennis hadn't paid it. Jack did some saving of his words, and pour it out in front of Ennis that next morning.
JMO.
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Well said LC, Ennis struggling, punching out his words and emotions . . .
Reminds me of the lyrics of the Ronan Keating song "When you say nothing at all" which was turned into a great Ennis/Jack video by johnboy:
It's amazing How you can speak Right to my heart,
Without saying a word, You can light up the dark,
Try as I may I could never explain
What I hear when You don't say a thing
No one else to marry? There was hardly anyone else he could even communicate to other than Jack, and most of that was non-verbal.
You know that's one of my favorite songs, but I haven't been able to listen to it without breaking down in the last few months. With my new outlook on Ennis and Heath, I think I will go look for this video from Johnboy.
Thanks, Jackster.
Here is the link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UVrTDp4KoRU
...and...I still can't watch it all the way through. :\'(
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"Take what you want from life," says God, "then pay."
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"Take what you want from life," says God, "then pay."
So Ennis, so BBM. I see it in that way no matter that maybe you don't understand me friends. I know what I mean. ::) ::)
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forgive me for not following the current conversation or if this has been said here before ive just checked this thread now for somereason i had seen it a couple of times and never came in due to being side tracked :P...
maybe jecks reasons for asking well. they could have just been small talk but possibly i think he wanted ennis to marry maybe he knew his dream was not coming true and ennis was not likely to get a ranch with him, so maybe jack decided Ennis should be close with someone for the times in the year when he and jack are apart just like when jack whent to mexico and the posabilaty of how jack may have had randall for the times when he was not with Ennis, it could be jack didnt want Ennis to be lonely when he wasnt with him, he maybe just wanted someone to light up Ennis life even if it was only a make shift relationship until the next time they could meet... wow sorry that was all over the place i hope it made at least some sense...
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It was like that from the start, standing in front of Aguirre's trailer, that non verbal totally visual foreplay, and then you could see Jack's aggressive nature, as Ennis passively looks away aroused(?), and timidly looks over to Jack when he thinks he not looking. Even stand in the trailer Ennis steps to the side, Jack in the middle of the floor, Ennis lets him then and there take the lead, in what to be something neither could even dreamt of. Maybe that first meeting set the stage for FNIT, Jack took lead, Ennis yielded to it, even he got Jack on all fours, Jack got exactly what he wanted to get, the pleasure of it, and the price he had to pay for had not even occurred to him, and didn't see it coming. Isn't there always a price we have to pay for what we want?
Hmmm... it's embarrassing to admit that it took me this long to figure out how to include a quote, but even turtles get there, sooner or later. I thought this post by MG is one of those great examples where someone puts the scenes together in a new way, and gives even more insight into the film and the characters. At any rate, now I have to reconsider whether it was love at first sight, whether Jack had far more control than I had thought, and also whether what AF called "a marriage of the hearts" preceded the marriage to Alma, making the first "marriage" the real one. Would that mean the separation after that summer, clumsy as it was, amounted to an inept divorce, later recanted?
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. . . Would that mean the separation after that summer, clumsy as it was, amounted to an inept divorce, later recanted?
Not in my book Tony. "Divorce" seems an intentional, planned action taken to nullify a previous action. It always seemed to me that the painful separation at summers end was another version of Ennis going back to the sheep only magnified in scale and emotion. Like him riding off after the dozy embrace. Like when a military man goes off to service, leaving his girl at the station, something he's got to do, his obligation. Something that has been set into motion and neither party can (or knows how to) reverse. OT here: It would be interesting to compare this "goodbye" with other famous cinematic goodbyes, I'm thinking of Rick and Elsa in Casablanca, both the goodbyes in the Paris train station and later at the Casablanca airport. These are great moments in cinematic lives, and this one at the truck in Signal ranks with the most gut wrenching, rip out your heart scenes. Divorce? Nah, just a painful goodbye or maybe a better word, Au revoir, IMHO.
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Jackster, I think I see Tony's point, it was like a divorce, the dozy embrace was ended by "see you in the morning" which seem to leave Jack content, and he waited for the morning. There was no such thing in Signal, it was ended. Prematurely, painful to both. And neither said what was in their hearts. Rick and Elsa loved each other, but understood they sacrificed their love for something they considered greater then themselves. Jack and Ennis love each other, now in the real world, let it end there. Divorce each other, foolishly thinking they could let each other go, and for what, something better, normal, acceptable? I might me wrong, but that's how I interpert Tony's post, (forgive me Tony, if I am).
JMO.
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Dear Jackster and MG - that was a throw-away line that you both reacted to. I was, and still am, influenced by Aintfoolin's phrase "a marriage of the hearts". If you take that phrase seriously (and I do), it then creates a different perspective.
Am not into the politics of gay marriages, and I think "soul-mates" is a term so over-used as to now be meaningless. So what AF's phrase triggered in me was the brainwashing of my particular denomination which says marriage is a sacramental union entered into by the two individuals. Dumping my church's further definitions, I then have to go to the metaphysics of marriage - did they "marry" by loving so intensely, regardless of whether a verbal commitment was made. Was there a heartfelt commitment, and, if so, when? The shirts say Jack made the commitment on the mountain.
If this is taking the matter too seriously, it's not like we haven't gone bonkers before. OK, some of us. I can't get a grip on this. Jackster's seeing them as just parting for awhile makes sense, and does not mess with AF's description (which I seem to want to legalize), as that could apply at some other time. But Manhattangirl sensed the brambles I am stuck in, meaning, did they, in some way, effect a marriage. Did they get it right the first time only to let it slip away? How many angels can you fit on the tip of a needle? Why did I have to go to parochial school?
"All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?" Or, was SNIT the meeting of two lovers, effectively marrying, and everything after that altered in meaning? What IS a marriage? Maybe I should use Jackster-common sense before I end up needing some aspirins.
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i love this whole imagry of "a marrige of the hearts" and the "divorce" its really accurate IMO
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Tony and MG: I'm sure not into the politics of marriage either. It was never something that interested me much (gee, I wonder why?) It always seemed that it was basically a public pronouncement and therefore needed a similarly public pronouncement (divorce) to bring it to an end. But I'm no expert here. Re the departures: post Dozy Embrace and then in Signal, "see you in the mornin" and "guess I'll see ya' round then" always seemed variations of the same sentiment only on a different scale to me, but JMHO. I don't think that either guy knew that they wouldn't necessarily see each other again, or for four years. Ennis wasn't goin' far, and there ain't that many folks around Wyoming, so if you're there somebody can pretty much find you if they look. It could be Ennis really did think he'd see Jack "around" workin' some place or driving his truck. I think his pain (in the alley) was due to his inability to effect any other conclusion to the opportunity the summer provided.
Yeah Tony, as usual, after reading your post I needed to sit down and let my head clear. Insightful and incite-ful. MG- wasn't thinking that the Casablanca goodbye was at all similar to BBM other than it was an emotion packed goodbye between two individual who have a love and yearning for each other. Sorry if I gave that impression. Only thought the nature of the cinematic goodbye would be an interesting study, it been done so much and is usually meant to be emotionally powerful.
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Dear Jackster and MG - that was a throw-away line that you both reacted to. I was, and still am, influenced by Aintfoolin's phrase "a marriage of the hearts". If you take that phrase seriously (and I do), it then creates a different perspective.
Am not into the politics of gay marriages, and I think "soul-mates" is a term so over-used as to now be meaningless. So what AF's phrase triggered in me was the brainwashing of my particular denomination which says marriage is a sacramental union entered into by the two individuals. Dumping my church's further definitions, I then have to go to the metaphysics of marriage - did they "marry" by loving so intensely, regardless of whether a verbal commitment was made. Was there a heartfelt commitment, and, if so, when? The shirts say Jack made the commitment on the mountain.
If this is taking the matter too seriously, it's not like we haven't gone bonkers before. OK, some of us. I can't get a grip on this. Jackster's seeing them as just parting for awhile makes sense, and does not mess with AF's description (which I seem to want to legalize), as that could apply at some other time. But Manhattangirl sensed the brambles I am stuck in, meaning, did they, in some way, effect a marriage. Did they get it right the first time only to let it slip away? How many angels can you fit on the tip of a needle? Why did I have to go to parochial school?
"All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?" Or, was SNIT the meeting of two lovers, effectively marrying, and everything after that altered in meaning? What IS a marriage? Maybe I should use Jackster-common sense before I end up needing some aspirins.
Tony, don't grab the aspirin bottle just yet, Maybe this thing can be seen as something of a * trial seperation. Ennis unknowingly at the time, putting his feelings to the test. He already knew they were connected as his feelings were straight from his heart for Jack, but he's loyal to his promise to Alma. Does'nt mean he loved her more, but that's Ennis, loyal to the core. Caught between this loyal committment to marry , but his heart was not in it. I don't believe he was fully commited to her in his heart. Divorce is such a final word, this was'nt final by any means. His intense grappling with emotions in the alley in Signal speaks to this. He was loyal , married to Alma in name only but his heart lay elsewhere, whereever Jack was in the world, that's where his true calling was. "See ya around then "was maybe a hope that he would.This "marriage of the heart "was'nt finished.
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I need an aspirin now, not you Tony, baby. Because after trying for half and hour write a decent post I only can say that for me "divorce" is not only the end of a relationship in the sense of being living with/or dating anyone, or having a physical contact with anyone. If that so Ennis and Jack divorced after that summer. But, for me the word divorce, in a relationship, implies emotional divorce: you just feel no longer love for one person. In that case Ennis and Jack was NOT divorced. They were not together, and even that was a kind of negation of their love by Ennis part, but they still loved each other, and Ennis spent 4 damn years thinking about Jack, so for me, they were still married.
Gorgeous posts everyone!! ^f^
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Dear Jackster - yeah, the common understanding of a marriage is a public pronouncement, and a divorce, the same. Am afraid I've been influenced by a little-known fact about my own denomination's (R.C.) teachings, which are that the marriage actually is effected by the 2 people, and the priest is only a witness. Dumping the church's other elaborations, then, I am left with a primitive definition of marriage as 2 people saying: it's you and me, and no other.
Did Ennis and/or Jack reach that level of commitment on the mountain? Emotionally, I think they did. Jack and the shirts. Ennis and his brooding on the hill. But the territory being so unfamiliar, they had no rational understanding of what had happened. In that sense, then, Aintfoolin's "marriage of the hearts" had occurred, and they spent all the following years catching up to it, or trying to. In the broadest sense then, both from a romantic point of view, and even incorporating some element of formalistic dogma (the union is effected by the individuals), it's arguable- them dudes wuz married: it's you and me and nobody else. And that prior commitment may have doomed their formalistic, ritual marriages to their wives.
Matt-your heart is in the right place. Baby Tammy, you are right - if there was a marriage, no divorce occurred. I don't need any aspirins, as it turns out....just several 6-packs and a re-viewing of the DVD and a toast to Jackster: here's lookin at you, kid (from Casablanca, or did I screw that one up too?).
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Dear Jackster - yeah, the common understanding of a marriage is a public pronouncement, and a divorce, the same. Am afraid I've been influenced by a little-known fact about my own denomination's (R.C.) teachings, which are that the marriage actually is effected by the 2 people, and the priest is only a witness. Dumping the church's other elaborations, then, I am left with a primitive definition of marriage as 2 people saying: it's you and me, and no other.
Did Ennis and/or Jack reach that level of commitment on the mountain? Emotionally, I think they did. Jack and the shirts. Ennis and his brooding on the hill. But the territory being so unfamiliar, they had no rational understanding of what had happened. In that sense, then, Aintfoolin's "marriage of the hearts" had occurred, and they spent all the following years catching up to it, or trying to. In the broadest sense then, both from a romantic point of view, and even incorporating some element of formalistic dogma (the union is effected by the individuals), it's arguable- them dudes wuz married: it's you and me and nobody else. And that prior commitment may have doomed their formalistic, ritual marriages to their wives.
Matt-your heart is in the right place. Baby Tammy, you are right - if there was a marriage, no divorce occurred. I don't need any aspirins, as it turns out....just several 6-packs and a re-viewing of the DVD and a toast to Jackster: here's lookin at you, kid (from Casablanca, or did I screw that one up too?).
I miss your posts Tony, you always have the answers in your question. For me, divorce is emotionally and physically jarring (been there, done that.), and it was just that emotional, painful process of letting go for me was not Ennis pouting on the hill, but getting sick, and Jack was taking the shirts.
It wasn't "I catch up with you in the future", for them that moment in Signal was something they thought had ended. That "emotional and physical' divorce, separation whatever, each man dealt with it in his own way.
And to think, the corespondent in the divorce was "bad weather".
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I feel that Ennis was married the summer of 1963, he was married to Jack. On a piece of paper, Ennis was married to Alma, and Jack was married to Lureen, but that didn't really mean anything at all. In their hearts, where it really mattered, where it was really meaningful, Ennis and Jack were married to each other, and had been so since that summer of '63. It's right before Ennis breaks things off with Cassie that he realizes who he's really been married to all those years.
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Did Ennis and/or Jack reach that level of commitment on the mountain? Emotionally, I think they did. Jack and the shirts. Ennis and his brooding on the hill.
Tony - Thanks for the Royal Crown explanation of marriage. It helps to see where you're comin' from here. I'm gonna PO a lot a folks and say, I don't think they was married. Yeah, the romantic in me would like to feel that, with all the lovin' and stuff. But they didn't choose to be together, it wus an accident. They made a real good time of it though, they made the time pass. Lots a' young couples have similar summer relationships (maybe without the forced isolation), but do they consider themselves "married"? Having lived and worked on similar isolated summer projects with other young folks who had summer "relationships" I don't recall that they felt married at the end of summer. Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying it was nuthin' here. It WAS no little thing, what they felt, how the connected. Maybe it was beyond marriage in terms of their personal growth and discovery. I'm not sure western culture, or English, has a good word to describe it. It was the union of two souls, or as AF so artfully put it a "marriage of the hearts". Sorry to get hung up on this word, but I been trained to believe marriage was somethin' you needed a license for. What Ennis & Jack experienced, no license (or manual) needed.
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Tony - Thanks for the Royal Crown explanation of marriage. It helps to see where you're comin' from here. I'm gonna PO a lot a folks and say, I don't think they was married. Yeah, the romantic in me would like to feel that, with all the lovin' and stuff. But they didn't choose to be together, it wus an accident. They made a real good time of it though, they made the time pass. Lots a' young couples have similar summer relationships (maybe without the forced isolation), but do they consider themselves "married"? Having lived and worked on similar isolated summer projects with other young folks who had summer "relationships" I don't recall that they felt married at the end of summer. Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying it was nuthin' here. It WAS no little thing, what they felt, how the connected. Maybe it was beyond marriage in terms of their personal growth and discovery. I'm not sure western culture, or English, has a good word to describe it. It was the union of two souls, or as AF so artfully put it a "marriage of the hearts". Sorry to get hung up on this word, but I been trained to believe marriage was somethin' you needed a license for. What Ennis & Jack experienced, no license (or manual) needed.
What they experienced on that mountain in the summer of '63 was true love, and hence they were forever married to each other because they could never love someone else as much as they loved each other. They had a marriage of the souls. Many people are married on a piece of paper, but are the REALLY married in that they completely, truly, deeply, love each other the way Ennis and Jack did? Are they truly soulmates? No. So what really matters more, a piece of paper, or two people who have a love so real, deep, pure, powerful, and true that it transcends everything? For me, it's definitely the latter. Some who are lucky have both the piece of paper and the true love, some have only the piece of paper and nothing really more, and some are like Jack and Ennis, they are married in their hearts, in their souls, and the fact that could never ever "quit" each other spoke volumes about who they were truly committed to...each other.
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Tony - Thanks for the Royal Crown explanation of marriage. It helps to see where you're comin' from here. I'm gonna PO a lot a folks and say, I don't think they was married. Yeah, the romantic in me would like to feel that, with all the lovin' and stuff. But they didn't choose to be together, it wus an accident. They made a real good time of it though, they made the time pass. Lots a' young couples have similar summer relationships (maybe without the forced isolation), but do they consider themselves "married"? Having lived and worked on similar isolated summer projects with other young folks who had summer "relationships" I don't recall that they felt married at the end of summer. Don't get me wrong, I ain't saying it was nuthin' here. It WAS no little thing, what they felt, how the connected. Maybe it was beyond marriage in terms of their personal growth and discovery. I'm not sure western culture, or English, has a good word to describe it. It was the union of two souls, or as AF so artfully put it a "marriage of the hearts". Sorry to get hung up on this word, but I been trained to believe marriage was somethin' you needed a license for. What Ennis & Jack experienced, no license (or manual) needed.
"Marriage", "Marriage of the Heart", or a "Summer Thing", maybe we are hung up on terms, I don't know. Ennis called it "the thing", they couldn't defined what it was they had, but fought to hold on to it, and to the point of fighting each other. I think what they had is just beyond words. JMO.
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Athena - MG - Tony
Yeah, I think we're all sayin' the same thing.
Just depends on if you're using the legal, philosophical, or religious definition of marriage. What the boys had and felt went beyond all these I think. Tony got this started so he's gonna' have to finish it. ;)
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forgive me for not following the current conversation or if this has been said here before ive just checked this thread now for somereason i had seen it a couple of times and never came in due to being side tracked :P...
maybe jecks reasons for asking well. they could have just been small talk but possibly i think he wanted ennis to marry maybe he knew his dream was not coming true and ennis was not likely to get a ranch with him, so maybe jack decided Ennis should be close with someone for the times in the year when he and jack are apart just like when jack whent to mexico and the posabilaty of how jack may have had randall for the times when he was not with Ennis, it could be jack didnt want Ennis to be lonely when he wasnt with him, he maybe just wanted someone to light up Ennis life even if it was only a make shift relationship until the next time they could meet... wow sorry that was all over the place i hope it made at least some sense...
I think Jack was concerned about Ennis marrying again in the context of having a "cover" that would anchor him and make him less paranoid. But I do sense that Jack also resented the thought of Ennis marrying again -- I seem to sense this during that conversation before the last confrontation. Jack probably felt resigned to the fact that Ennic wouldn't commit to him for the forseeable future; hence, his seeking cover under a nominal marriage would have at least afforded him some security...
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I think Jack was concerned about Ennis marrying again in the context of having a "cover" that would anchor him and make him less paranoid. But I do sense that Jack also resented the thought of Ennis marrying again -- I seem to sense this during that conversation before the last confrontation. Jack probably felt resigned to the fact that Ennic wouldn't commit to him for the forseeable future; hence, his seeking cover under a nominal marriage would have at least afforded him some security...
yer agreed, good point :)
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Dear Jackster - nah, I didn't start it, Aintfoolin did. She used the "M" word, and now, all this quacking. I would say, the concept of a license, a formal piece of paper, is relatively modern. But also, the concept of romantic love within a marriage is also only about 800 years old (ref: Love in the Western World, Denise de Rougement). Concepts of what a marriage is, then, seem to vary, so it's too soon to send postcards to friends.
We can probably keep on getting those newer insights we keep trying for, (MG certainly did), but the only area I feel sure of is that some kind of hook-up occurred on the mountain that was not disolvable. By that, I mean, if they had never met again, it was a sacred zone in their hearts, they would have carried with them. The shirts didn't appear in Jack's closet after the reunion----they'd been there already for 4 years. And Ennis' near nervous breakdown, waiting to see if Jack would show, spoke much about what he'd been carrying along deep inside.
I'd settle for saying something had occurred which was not disolvable, and that was "sacred" to both of them. So it wouldn't be a summer fling that later developed into a great love. Paraphrasing AP, they went up the mountain one way, came down, another. Altered completely.
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"Marriage", "Marriage of the Heart", or a "Summer Thing", maybe we are hung up on terms, I don't know. Ennis called it "the thing", they couldn't defined what it was they had, but fought to hold on to it, and to the point of fighting each other. I think what they had is just beyond words. JMO.
I personally feel that marriage isn't exactly the right word when it comes to describing the thing between Ennis and Jack. Then again, I do tend to agree that a lot of it goes beyond words. But "love" is probably the closest we can get -- commonplace it may seem to so many of us who hear the word abused and overused all the time.
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Athena - MG - Tony
Yeah, I think we're all sayin' the same thing.
Just depends on if you're using the legal, philosophical, or religious definition of marriage. What the boys had and felt went beyond all these I think. Tony got this started so he's gonna' have to finish it. ;)
Yeah, I tend to look at marriage in a philosophical way. For me, it's not something that's constituted in a ritual or on a piece of paper. How many people have gotten married when they didn't love each other? Way too many! For me, marriage has to be a marriage of the soul, and that's what Jack and Ennis had. When I think of the word marriage, I think of it's real meaning...a bond. And it's clear that where it really mattered, in their hearts and souls, Ennis and Jack were married to each other.
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Yeah, I tend to look at marriage in a philosophical way. For me, it's not something that's constituted in a ritual or on a piece of paper. How many people have gotten married when they didn't love each other? Way too many! For me, marriage has to be a marriage of the soul, and that's what Jack and Ennis had. When I think of the word marriage, I think of it's real meaning...a bond. And it's clear that where it really mattered, in their hearts and souls, Ennis and Jack were married to each other.
I totally agree with this. I don't think anyone was really saying they were " married" in a traditional sense, standing before the man , promising to love honor and obeying( ..obeying?... somehow I don't like that)..but , there was that bond.
They sensed either in a way long term married couples do.Wethered the storms of a relationship. Major pieces of their lives were wrapped up in this. An emotionall investment was made on the mountain, a secret, but sarcred bond was created there between them. They may not have said it out loud , no eloquent speeches or shouting from the roof tops, but I feel they said I love you in many ways.
Ennis was *committed to Jack by his love and need for him, carried a *prescence* of Jack with him and that kept him faithful and not marry Cassie or anyone else. It is definitly a romantic notion of *marriage*, but there's no license or legal papers , signed on the dotted line here. It's just hearfelt love and a need to be a part of each other's lives, if only in secret. It was them against the world.
Ennis was changed by Jack and v/v. Take another look at Ennis's eyes in SNIT, if that's not need and wanting, I don't know what those words mean. They are both vulnerable to love , Jack, putting himself out there as the leader, the example, the standard. Jack knows Ennis was realising something in those moments and he felt the same. He loved Jack though he coud'nt even speak it but so much is said with deeds or just a simple gesture. Reversing the shirts, The Dozy embrace spoke volumes about his feelings for Jack, and Jack's gentle stroke of Ennis's cheek by the river are examples. All things speak to a bonding that lasted beyond Brokeback Mt. Nah, they made not have had a peice of paper that says so, but there was a " marriage of the heart" , a meeting of the minds that lasted 20 yrs.
Only death parted them. And even then , though Jack was gone, Ennis finally stood up for him and their love. He'd defended Jack and their love once in Alma's kitchen ,and again in OMT's kitchen. MHO.
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Dear Jackster - nah, I didn't start it, Aintfoolin did. She used the "M" word, and now, all this quacking. I would say, the concept of a license, a formal piece of paper, is relatively modern. But also, the concept of romantic love within a marriage is also only about 800 years old (ref: Love in the Western World, Denise de Rougement). Concepts of what a marriage is, then, seem to vary, so it's too soon to send postcards to friends.
We can probably keep on getting those newer insights we keep trying for, (MG certainly did), but the only area I feel sure of is that some kind of hook-up occurred on the mountain that was not disolvable. By that, I mean, if they had never met again, it was a sacred zone in their hearts, they would have carried with them. The shirts didn't appear in Jack's closet after the reunion----they'd been there already for 4 years. And Ennis' near nervous breakdown, waiting to see if Jack would show, spoke much about what he'd been carrying along deep inside.
I'd settle for saying something had occurred which was not disolvable, and that was "sacred" to both of them. So it wouldn't be a summer fling that later developed into a great love. Paraphrasing AP, they went up the mountain one way, came down, another. Altered completely.
That's beautiful friend. Totally agree!!
I personally feel that marriage isn't exactly the right word when it comes to describing the thing between Ennis and Jack. Then again, I do tend to agree that a lot of it goes beyond words. But "love" is probably the closest we can get -- commonplace it may seem to so many of us who hear the word abused and overused all the time.
Yeah Thomas, now we meet someone and already we are in love with him/her; two months and we quit; next week we are sooooo in love with a another person. And so on. People say "I love you" all the time, without even know what that is. To like is not love.
I totally agree with this. I don't think anyone was really saying they were " married" in a traditional sense, standing before the man , promising to love honor and obeying( ..obeying?... somehow I don't like that)..but , there was that bond.
They sensed either in a way long term married couples do.Wethered the storms of a relationship. Major pieces of their lives were wrapped up in this. An emotionall investment was made on the mountain, a secret, but sarcred bond was created there between them. They may not have said it out loud , no eloquent speeches or shouting from the roof tops, but I feel they said I love you in many ways.
Ennis was *committed to Jack by his love and need for him, carried a *prescence* of Jack with him and that kept him faithful and not marry Cassie or anyone else. It is definitly a romantic notion of *marriage*, but there's no license or legal papers , signed on the dotted line here. It's just hearfelt love and a need to be a part of each other's lives, if only in secret. It was them against the world.
Ennis was changed by Jack and v/v. Take another look at Ennis's eyes in SNIT, if that's not need and wanting, I don't know what those words mean. They are both vulnerable to love , Jack, putting himself out there as the leader, the example, the standard. Jack knows Ennis was realising something in those moments and he felt the same. He loved Jack though he coud'nt even speak it but so much is said with deeds or just a simple gesture. Reversing the shirts, The Dozy embrace spoke volumes about his feelings for Jack, and Jack's gentle stroke of Ennis's cheek by the river are examples. All things speak to a bonding that lasted beyond Brokeback Mt. Nah, they made not have had a peice of paper that says so, but there was a " marriage of the heart" , a meeting of the minds that lasted 20 yrs.
Only death parted them. And even then , though Jack was gone, Ennis finally stood up for him and their love. He'd defended Jack and their love once in Alma's kitchen ,and again in OMT's kitchen. MHO.
I agree once again. This is gorgeous AF. And yeah, even with Jack dead they were not separated. Ennis had Jack EVERYDAY in his thoughts, in his heart and in his dreams.
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"You ain't found anyone else to marry?" How do you think Jack sees marriage? Asking this of man he would lay down with. Do you think their idea, Jack and Ennis, sees marriage in a totally different way then we speak of it. Jack confides to Ennis that his marriage to Lureen could be phoned in. What did he think, expect in a marriage, when his total being was devoted to Ennis, and Ennis couldn't get pass his need for Jack, to even function in any kind of relationship.
I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was. How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them. Neither of them had a clue. And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them.
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. . . I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was. How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them. Neither of them had a clue. And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them.
MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO
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MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship, so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO
great post it makes alot of sense :)
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MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship, so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO
You see that's why I have such a hard time with reasons for Ennis to go ahead and marry Alma was it out of love. No, I don't think so, It was that "I stick with beans" mentality which Ennis stubbornly held on to. He brother marry, so did his sister, and at nineteen, on his own, busting out on his own was out of the question, you marry. So Ennis in all his convention did what was expected. Jack on the other hand was so opposite of Ennis in that respect. My God, what must have been like to hear Jack talk, his attitude, his sense of humor, the way he'll look Ennis straight in the eyes. How could Ennis resist this force in front of him, and the feelings that rose up in him for this man.
Then Jack's question. The concept of marriage, what did it really mean to them. Thanks Jackster you understand where I'm coming from.
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That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO
This is at the core of the dilemma for our two boys. We could put aside the issue of Ennis' fears of a homophobic culture, and there would STILL have been problems. There's a set script for growing up, getting married, having kids, and dying. Where is the manual for a collision of two souls, with a love that transcends gender and, yes, the standard model of "just enough love to get by"?
This "thing" Ennis said came over them, seemed directly referring to their sexual entanglement, but he was to find that there was some unknown, unheard of, binding of each to the other, for which there was no license, and clearly, no manual to follow. What county office would you go to, to register a meeting of two souls? The core of this story is that they had found a love most of the world does not provide for, regardless of gender.
Jackster has it right on. IMO, that they were stuck with an unknown.
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"You ain't found anyone else to marry?" How do you think Jack sees marriage? Asking this of man he would lay down with. Do you think their idea, Jack and Ennis, sees marriage in a totally different way then we speak of it. Jack confides to Ennis that his marriage to Lureen could be phoned in. What did he think, expect in a marriage, when his total being was devoted to Ennis, and Ennis couldn't get pass his need for Jack, to even function in any kind of relationship.
I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was. How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them. Neither of them had a clue. And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them.
MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO
What county office would you go to, to register a meeting of two souls? The core of this story is that they had found a love most of the world does not provide for, regardless of gender. Jackster has it right on. IMO, that they were stuck with an unknown.
Gorgeous posts everyone!! I see what you're saying here and I totally agree!!
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Gorgeous posts everyone!! I see what you're saying here and I totally agree!!
This is at the core of the dilemma for our two boys. We could put aside the issue of Ennis' fears of a homophobic culture, and there would STILL have been problems. There's a set script for growing up, getting married, having kids, and dying. Where is the manual for a collision of two souls, with a love that transcends gender and, yes, the standard model of "just enough love to get by"?
This "thing" Ennis said came over them, seemed directly referring to their sexual entanglement, but he was to find that there was some unknown, unheard of, binding of each to the other, for which there was no license, and clearly, no manual to follow. What county office would you go to, to register a meeting of two souls? The core of this story is that they had found a love most of the world does not provide for, regardless of gender.
Jackster has it right on. IMO, that they were stuck with an unknown.
MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO
wow, this is fantastic discussion. I finally understand the question, and the scene. I never could figure what's the big deal with it. Now I see it is at the heart of their relationship. Instead of the expected marriage, that time and space, they were faced with something different, something Jack jumped on and ready to ride off into their sweet cow and calf operation together, but something that Ennis did not know how to deal with.
I just found a song before reading this topic that makes me realize it is Ennis' way to not do anything half way.
Celine Dion's When I Fall in Love with You, describes what Ennis went through from the diner to find the two shirts:
When I fall in love
It will be forever
Or I'll never fall in love
In a restless world
Like this is
Love is ended before it's begun
And too many
Moonlight kisses
Seem to cool in the warmth of the sun
When I give my heart
I give it completely
Or I'll never give my heart
And the moment I can feel that you feel that way too
Is when I fall in love with you
That's the magic and sad moment in the closet in Lightning Flat.
Ennis could never marry anyone but Jack. He knew it deep down before that moment. He had an inkling of it in the diner with Cassie. He had no doubt of it when he hugged the two shirts, and smelled Jack, and felt Jack, and yearned for Jack.
The question is not: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
The question ought to be: "All this time, you never once thought about us being married, and raising our own cows and calfs?"
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Gorgeous posts everyone!! I see what you're saying here and I totally agree!!
I totally agree too, with all the great posts. It makes sense. they just sort of *drifted* into marriage, thinking they were *fixing* something. Rarely does it play out that way. Both Jack and Ennis did'nt go out of their way, looking for wives or even each other., it kind of just happened by accident.. An opportunity for marriage to the women was an expectation of society, but they both took a huge leap considering their immature sense of what marriage means in a traditional sense. So young at 19 yrs. old,They had not the time, or the inclination to find out.
By the time they really understood traditional marriage as society defines it, they had responsibilities to wives and children. Neither really knew these women, lived with them yes, had kids, but not really IMHO and certainly they, (Alma, Lureen, nor Cassie,) definitly did'nt really know Jack and Ennis.. Had no idea. How could Jack or Ennis work it out with women in their lives when feelings for each other remain alive and well within relationships with them? And to what end? Unspoken vows had already been taken. Nothing permanent was forthcoming here . No other person could touch this.
Jack nor Ennis had need not expect a fresh, composed, traditional marriage because their hearts already belonged to some one else. They'd already lived those moments. So they drifted until they'd both had enough of *playing house* and drifted apart. Society decided whom they should marry gender-wise, Man marries woman, have children, and create some kind of life together till death do them part, and they yeilded somewhat to the expectations, but love knows no gender . It is an entity of feeling, two hearts bonded together, no license required. so there they were. I agreed with Jack when he said " you and Alma, that's a life? Jack knew it was merely an existence, not a fullfilling life not unlike his own . Ennis admits he is stuck with what he got. Before it was all said and done, Alma found some dignity and filed for divorce from Ennis and Jack was phoning his marriage with Lureen in like MG said. Both found themselves stuck in traps of their own making, they were only digging their holes deeper. once he got out, Ennis chose not to repeat the same mistake twice.
These two marriages dissolved because Jack and Ennis were already in love with each other, bonded in mind, body and soul to each other on Brokeback Mt.. Unconditional freindship that evolved into an expressed same-sex love. Neither could conceive of loving some one else this way. Jack did'nt think that Ennis knew "how bad it gets" , I think he did, he would know, cuz he was the one in constant battle with it, and it was winning. might not have been dealing in the exact same way Jack was dealing with this *thing*, but a seperate set of circumcumstances stood before Ennis. Both trying to figure out this *thing* (called love) in their own way, they both found it worthy of continuance , and it was equal in it's power over both of them. So what's missing? I think it's a mature verbal acknowlegment , communication , and compromise. They both tried to conform and *blend in* seperatly but it would'nt play, happiness depended on having the other near, Who could resist that? Any one can get a license and call themselves *married*, but without the dedicated heart, it is for nil. In spite of it all, this one lasted. MHO.
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. . . . Where is the manual for a collision of two souls, with a love that transcends gender and, yes, the standard model of "just enough love to get by"? . . .
Could be Tony that we we've all been reading and watching an introductory chapter in this manual. One of the reasons we're all so drawn to this tale, it's showing us, making real for us, issues and directions that haven't been clarified before. Thank you, Annie, Ang, Heath. Thank you, ennisjack.com.
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I totally agree too, with all the great posts. It makes sense. they just sort of *drifted* into marriage, thinking they were *fixing* something. Rarely does it play out that way. Both Jack and Ennis did'nt go out of their way, looking for wives or even each other., it kind of just happened by accident.. An opportunity for marriage to the women was an expectation of society, but they both took a huge leap considering their immature sense of what marriage means in a traditional sense. So young at 19 yrs. old,They had not the time, or the inclination to find out.
By the time they really understood traditional marriage as society defines it, they had responsibilities to wives and children. Neither really knew these women, lived with them yes, had kids, but not really IMHO and certainly they, (Alma, Lureen, nor Cassie,) definitly did'nt really know Jack and Ennis.. Had no idea. How could Jack or Ennis work it out with women in their lives when feelings for each other remain alive and well within relationships with them? And to what end? Unspoken vows had already been taken. Nothing permanent was forthcoming here . No other person could touch this.
Jack nor Ennis had need not expect a fresh, composed, traditional marriage because their hearts already belonged to some one else. They'd already lived those moments. So they drifted until they'd both had enough of *playing house* and drifted apart. Society decided whom they should marry gender-wise, Man marries woman, have children, and create some kind of life together till death do them part, and they yeilded somewhat to the expectations, but love knows no gender . It is an entity of feeling, two hearts bonded together, no license required. so there they were. I agreed with Jack when he said " you and Alma, that's a life? Jack knew it was merely an existence, not a fullfilling life not unlike his own . Ennis admits he is stuck with what he got. Before it was all said and done, Alma found some dignity and filed for divorce from Ennis and Jack was phoning his marriage with Lureen in like MG said. Both found themselves stuck in traps of their own making, they were only digging their holes deeper. once he got out, Ennis chose not to repeat the same mistake twice.
These two marriages dissolved because Jack and Ennis were already in love with each other, bonded in mind, body and soul to each other on Brokeback Mt.. Unconditional freindship that evolved into an expressed same-sex love. Neither could conceive of loving some one else this way. Jack did'nt think that Ennis knew "how bad it gets" , I think he did, he would know, cuz he was the one in constant battle with it, and it was winning. might not have been dealing in the exact same way Jack was dealing with this *thing*, but a seperate set of circumcumstances stood before Ennis. Both trying to figure out this *thing* (called love) in their own way, they both found it worthy of continuance , and it was equal in it's power over both of them. So what's missing? I think it's a mature verbal acknowlegment , communication , and compromise. They both tried to conform and *blend in* seperatly but it would'nt play, happiness depended on having the other near, Who could resist that? Any one can get a license and call themselves *married*, but without the dedicated heart, it is for nil. In spite of it all, this one lasted. MHO.
Oh WOW, AF!!! This is so so so well said!!! I love it.
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"You ain't found anyone else to marry?" How do you think Jack sees marriage? Asking this of man he would lay down with. Do you think their idea, Jack and Ennis, sees marriage in a totally different way then we speak of it. Jack confides to Ennis that his marriage to Lureen could be phoned in. What did he think, expect in a marriage, when his total being was devoted to Ennis, and Ennis couldn't get pass his need for Jack, to even function in any kind of relationship.
I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was. How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them. Neither of them had a clue. And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them.
I think that Jack's marriage to Lureen was a step taken by Jack in order to forget Ennis and move on. It would seem that for Ennis and Jack, marriage was in the natural order of things, and that perhaps their affection for each other was just something that they could outgrow. I think that Jack early on though that marriage was the reality and that his love for Ennis was more like a dream, a fluke. Only later on did Jack (I think) take the pragmatic approach to marriage as a screen that would protect him and Ennis from suspicion. The latter is what I suspect both Ennis and Jack had in mind in the case of Cassie.
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The question is not: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
The question ought to be: "All this time, you never once thought about us being married, and raising our own cows and calfs?"
Wonderful insight here, lance!
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Wonderful insight here, lance!
i agree with this lances post was beautiful :)
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i agree with this lances post was beautiful :)
I agree Lance is right. It's about them and no one else. Jack is seeking validation from Ennis concerning their relationship after so much time. Ennis has not married because of his love for Jack, Jack is tired of holding on to a half-life in Texas, and loves Ennis , and always have. How long must he wait? "What about US?", god, after all this time, why could'nt they communicate better? Straight up, without the innuendo, and guessing games? though Jack was calm telling Ennis he "can't hardly stand it" ,I could feel his frustration here. and Man, I loved Ennis dearly , he had his reasons, but the silence.. what in the world...? they were'nt 19 anymore and Jack was'nt looking for eloquent speeches or romantic declarations from Ennis, Just that I feel Ennis owed Jack answers, after 20 yrs., really... I'm just sayin... Sorry, it's not the first time I've wanted to bash Ennis over the head and wake him up in the film, instead of telling Jack through his actions to *dream on*. Jack could'nt have made it any clearer imo without coming straight out with it like Lance said. Am I wrong here?... Vent over. Thanx.
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I agree Lance is right. It's about them and no one else. Jack is seeking validation from Ennis concerning their relationship after so much time. Ennis has not married because of his love for Jack, Jack is tired of holding on to a half-life in Texas, and loves Ennis , and always have. How long must he wait? "What about US?", god, after all this time, why could'nt they communicate better? Straight up, without the innuendo, and guessing games? though Jack was calm telling Ennis he "can't hardly stand it" ,I could feel his frustration here. and Man, I loved Ennis dearly , he had his reasons, but the silence.. what in the world...? they were'nt 19 anymore and Jack was'nt looking for eloquent speeches or romantic declarations from Ennis, Just that I feel Ennis owed Jack answers, after 20 yrs., really... I'm just sayin... Sorry, it's not the first time I've wanted to bash Ennis over the head and wake him up in the film, instead of telling Jack through his actions to *dream on*. Jack could'nt have made it any clearer imo without coming straight out with it like Lance said. Am I wrong here?... Vent over. Thanx.
Oh please keep venting, this is the big question. After all those years, don't you think you can be up front with your lover and "Hey, what's up with us ?" . Jack had to get really fed up with Ennis. The next morning was when he did. Which moment would have been better, the night before, or the next morning when Jack was in a foul mood, and Ennis pushing the date back.
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I agree Lance is right. It's about them and no one else. Jack is seeking validation from Ennis concerning their relationship after so much time. Ennis has not married because of his love for Jack, Jack is tired of holding on to a half-life in Texas, and loves Ennis , and always have. How long must he wait? "What about US?", god, after all this time, why could'nt they communicate better? Straight up, without the innuendo, and guessing games? though Jack was calm telling Ennis he "can't hardly stand it" ,I could feel his frustration here. and Man, I loved Ennis dearly , he had his reasons, but the silence.. what in the world...? they were'nt 19 anymore and Jack was'nt looking for eloquent speeches or romantic declarations from Ennis, Just that I feel Ennis owed Jack answers, after 20 yrs., really... I'm just sayin... Sorry, it's not the first time I've wanted to bash Ennis over the head and wake him up in the film, instead of telling Jack through his actions to *dream on*. Jack could'nt have made it any clearer imo without coming straight out with it like Lance said. Am I wrong here?... Vent over. Thanx.
thanks, everyone, you all are always too kind to me. (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc126%2Flancecowboy%2Femoticons%2Fblushing9.gif&hash=0a8df8586853616d9818719f80e4b630db23f999)
I think manhattengirl said once that the most consistent characteristics between Ennis and Jack had been their inability to communicate verbal how they could communicate non-verbally. They can feel each other and the love they share, yet they cannot verbalize those feelings nor to communicate what to do with them. The only time that it came close was their reunion by the river with the fireside scene. But the tale of Earl and Rich put a damper on it, and it never opened up again.
Vent away, aintfooling...I am with you 100%.
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thanks, everyone, you all are always too kind to me. [IMG]
I think manhattengirl said once that the most consistent characteristics between Ennis and Jack had been their inability to communicate verbal how they could communicate non-verbally. They can feel each other and the love they share, yet they cannot verbalize those feelings nor to communicate what to do with them. The only time that it came close was their reunion by the river with the fireside scene. But the tale of Earl and Rich put a damper on it, and it never opened up again.
Which was what made the "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry" scene all the more interrsting, because you feel that there was a lot of stuff happening underneath the seemingly casual conversation. The only time we get an explicit glimpse of everything that lay underneath was when Jack finally says "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." After this was silence. In many ways, no words needed to be exchanged after that.
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Oh please keep venting, this is the big question. After all those years, don't you think you can be up front with your lover and "Hey, what's up with us ?" . Jack had to get really fed up with Ennis. The next morning was when he did. Which moment would have been better, the night before, or the next morning when Jack was in a foul mood, and Ennis pushing the date back.
Love your post AF. ^f^ A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?
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Love your post AF. ^f^ A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?
Thanx Lance MG, BT, and Tpe, Would'nt change a thing in this classic work of art Brokeback Mountain, things were as they were. but...sometimes ....
BabyT,
I think Jack was in a foul mood because he was being asked to just stand it some more. Again he feels his case was laid out , he can "hardly stand it." and his his needs have fallen on seemingly deaf ears. His hope, once again dashed. Another long lonely drive back to Texas , having accepted the status quo from the one he loves and needs. Not just sometime here and there , but all the time. No more time left to make his case and time was of the essence. Again, he will visit his parents and head on back to a half-life that he can no longer tolerate in Texas. Misunderstood and treated like crap. And all for what? A man he loves with all his heart, but a man who can't really see him, hear him, feels what he feels the way he needs him to . ...but he loves him , no doubt. He feels a tug on the short leash. ...Or maybe he's just not a morning person, in any case he's ready for a change.
Once again, they have to part. Ennis does't make it any better by his silence, though that's when Ennis is trying to find away to tell Jack that Aug is kaput and Jack has to wait till Nov. to see em. Just a little tidbit of vital info that he's withheld from Jack until Jack is ready to leave. of course he's done the latter in order to avoid , at the begginning of the trip, what he's dealing with now. Now Ennis has to deal with a Jack who's already in a foul mood, his ire has been raised by not being told earlier, he's now pissed off, and now feeling somewhat manipulated by Ennis. He feels very unappreciated ( an understatement). It's only part of the big picture though, where Jack feels his dreams of a ranch with Ennis slipping away. I say Ennis has a way of magnifying Jack's frustration at the wrong moments creating his own minefields, again I adored Ennis ,and by god, he had his reasons and my heart went out for him but Jack may have had the patience of Job. But when he got mad, well,... let's just say Ennis was not ready for this Jack. He had a temper. Sorry *o) MO.
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Love your post AF. ^f^ A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?
I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter. The scene from the night before exposed Jack's vulnerability. But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.
Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before. It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession. This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.
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Thanx Lance MG, BT, and Tpe, Would'nt change a thing in this classic work of art Brokeback Mountain, things were as they were. but...sometimes ....
BabyT,
I think Jack was in a foul mood because he was being asked to just stand it some more. Again he feels his case was laid out , he can "hardly stand it." and his his needs have fallen on seemingly deaf ears. His hope, once again dashed. Another long lonely drive back to Texas , having accepted the status quo from the one he loves and needs. Not just sometime here and there , but all the time. No more time left to make his case and time was of the essence. Again, he will visit his parents and head on back to a half-life that he can no longer tolerate in Texas. Misunderstood and treated like crap. And all for what? A man he loves with all his heart, but a man who can't really see him, hear him, feels what he feels the way he needs him to . ...but he loves him , no doubt. He feels a tug on the short leash. ...Or maybe he's just not a morning person, in any case he's ready for a change.
Once again, they have to part. Ennis does't make it any better by his silence, though that's when Ennis is trying to find away to tell Jack that Aug is kaput and Jack has to wait till Nov. to see em. Just a little tidbit of vital info that he's withheld from Jack until Jack is ready to leave. of course he's done the latter in order to avoid , at the begginning of the trip, what he's dealing with now. Now Ennis has to deal with a Jack who's already in a foul mood, his ire has been raised by not being told earlier, he's now pissed off, and now feeling somewhat manipulated by Ennis. He feels very unappreciated ( an understatement). It's only part of the big picture though, where Jack feels his dreams of a ranch with Ennis slipping away. I say Ennis has a way of magnifying Jack's frustration at the wrong moments creating his own minefields, again I adored Ennis ,and by god, he had his reasons and my heart went out for him but Jack may have had the patience of Job. But when he got mad, well,... let's just say Ennis was not ready for this Jack. He had a temper. Sorry *o) MO.
Totally agree again, AF. ^f^ You really know our boys so well. This is a very heartbreaking post but I know it's the truth, so I have to stand it because I can't fix it. But still, Jack's feelings there make me feel all weak and broken. Poor baby. :\'( :\'( :\'( Can you believe that after my second view of BBM I knew the whole dialogue of the confrontation scene by heart? It was a big stunning impact for me, and my friends at work used to ask me to perform the whole thing for them, because they loved it. But I always said no...because that made me cry. Oooppss, sorry, big OT here. BTW call me Tammy. :^^)
I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter. The scene from the night before exposed Jack's vulnerability. But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.
Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before. It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession. This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.
Beautifully said Thomas. Yeah, that was Jack.
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Love your post AF. ^f^ A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?
I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter. The scene from the night
before exposed Jack's vulnerability. But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.
Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before. It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession. This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.
I tend to think that there was a mess of confronted feelings inside Jack the morning they had to leave:one more time,they had to be apart,but one more time moreover,without having a clear and direct answer to his wishes.Even more and worse this time,because he had been very clear in showing the feelings he had for Ennis,perhaps Jack' s first and only time when he really declares his love-even if he had showed it in many ways many times before,never in oral way...-.
And he had been so clear after a question I agree with some Brokies who has remarked before that carries an implicit reference to their relationship and its future.As a matter of fact,the more I read your posts,the clearer I see this...Jack-the same than Ennis somehow-knows very well that his lover can't be ever happy with a woman,and he's at ease in this sense.But he also knows that he had too many fears,that can be "calmed" with the socially well seen presence of a wife in his life,that's for sure,and he feels anxious in this other sense.He knows that if Ennis gets married,it would be more difficult for him to get what he wishes,not everybody is Alma...And he knows also that they have arrived to a point when they need to resolve their future together,they can' t be lovers for the eternity;so,in their never clear enough way of communicating between them,he tries to estimate Ennis reaction to see what he can hope from him.I think is for this reason that this enquire on Ennis ends with Jack's confession;for him,one thing and another goes together...And yes,Thomas,Jack always leaves his heart exposed,it' s true;but IMO never enough as to be able to be as friends as goods as lovers,never with enough trust.I don' t know if this makes sense. :)
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I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter. The scene from the night before exposed Jack's vulnerability. But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.
Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before. It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession. This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.
Yes, all you say is true, but don't you think that Jack was trying to boil it all down for Ennis? make it plain without just coming right out with it. Seeking some verbal response from Ennis that he is reason #1 why Ennis has not re-married? The whole confession starts out " Tell you what, truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", narrowing it back down to him and Ennis. in response to learning about Cassie, and admitting his own affair with some ranch foreman's wife ( I assume LaShawn, but somehow I can't see that, more likely Randall himself.), but anyway, Jack was saying despite all that, It was Ennis he really needed? Underneath that calm exterior, It's as if Jack reckons he has to say" It's Jack , your friend and lover of 20 yrs. and I'm still waiting.
Was Jack not enough to the point? All Ennis had to do was read between the lines just a little? Jack was sayin * what about me? us? . And can it be tied in with the next mornings goings on? Be the reason why Jack looked so weary and in a foul mood to begin with. Or was Ennis too pre-occupied with knowing this will be the last time for a while with Jack, and just wanted to prolong the peace as long as he could? your right , Jack was putting his vulnerabilty out there along with his heart. As you say, so much more was going here beneath the surface talk for sure.
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Beautifully said Thomas. Yeah, that was Jack.
Thanks Tammy. :)
I tend to think that there was a mess of confronted feelings inside Jack the morning they had to leave:one more time,they had to be apart,but one more time moreover,without having a clear and direct answer to his wishes.Even more and worse this time,because he had been very clear in showing the feelings he had for Ennis,perhaps Jack' s first and only time when he really declares his love-even if he had showed it in many ways many times before,never in oral way...-.
And he had been so clear after a question I agree with some Brokies who has remarked before that carries an implicit reference to their relationship and its future.As a matter of fact,the more I read your posts,the clearer I see this...Jack-the same than Ennis somehow-knows very well that his lover can't be ever happy with a woman,and he's at ease in this sense.But he also knows that he had too many fears,that can be "calmed" with the socially well seen presence of a wife in his life,that's for sure,and he feels anxious in this other sense.He knows that if Ennis gets married,it would be more difficult for him to get what he wishes,not everybody is Alma...And he knows also that they have arrived to a point when they need to resolve their future together,they can' t be lovers for the eternity;so,in their never clear enough way of communicating between them,he tries to estimate Ennis reaction to see what he can hope from him.I think is for this reason that this enquire on Ennis ends with Jack's confession;for him,one thing and another goes together...And yes,Thomas,Jack always leaves his heart exposed,it' s true;but IMO never enough as to be able to be as friends as goods as lovers,never with enough trust.I don' t know if this makes sense. :)
Beautiful deduction. I underline the part that I find very insightful.
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Yes, all you say is true, but don't you think that Jack was trying to boil it all down for Ennis? make it plain without just coming right out with it. Seeking some verbal response from Ennis that he is reason #1 why Ennis has not re-married? The whole confession starts out " Tell you what, truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", narrowing it back down to him and Ennis. in response to learning about Cassie, and admitting his own affair with some ranch foreman's wife ( I assume LaShawn, but somehow I can't see that, more likely Randall himself.), but anyway, Jack was saying despite all that, It was Ennis he really needed? Underneath that calm exterior, It's as if Jack reckons he has to say" It's Jack , your friend and lover of 20 yrs. and I'm still waiting.
Was Jack not enough to the point? All Ennis had to do was read between the lines just a little? Jack was sayin * what about me? us? . And can it be tied in with the next mornings goings on? Be the reason why Jack looked so weary and in a foul mood to begin with. Or was Ennis too pre-occupied with knowing this will be the last time for a while with Jack, and just wanted to prolong the peace as long as he could? your right , Jack was putting his vulnerabilty out there along with his heart. As you say, so much more was going here beneath the surface talk for sure.
I think Jack at that post was trying to cut through all the obfuscation -- all the conventions that have come to dominate their meetings and their relationship. So many things have been left unsaid, over the years, and this was Jack's first attempt to address this head-on. His confession is a way of telling Ennis that for all their tiptoeing around each other, there is something that cannot be denied: that he loves him.
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Thanks Tammy. :)
Beautiful deduction. I underline the part that I find very insightful.
Thanks,Thomas¡. :)
I think Jack at that post was trying to cut through all the obfuscation -- all the conventions that have come to dominate their meetings and their relationship. So many things have been left unsaid, over the years, and this was Jack's first attempt to address this head-on. His confession is a way of telling Ennis that for all their tiptoeing around each other, there is something that cannot be denied: that he loves him.
I agree again¡ O0 Yes,Jack's confession-really,the first one in all those years...-is a way of reassuring Ennis about his own feelings.And perhaps he wanted at the same time to reassure himself about Ennis ones.
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Thanks,Thomas¡. :)
I agree again¡ O0 Yes,Jack's confession-really,the first one in all those years...-is a way of reassuring Ennis about his own feelings.And perhaps he wanted at the same time to reassure himself about Ennis ones.
And I am not sure if he got it. A part of me says that perhaps he did -- taking Ennis's silence as an affirmation, since Ennis would have disavowed what Jack said as hogwash, given how many times he had dismissed Jack's overtures in the past. But we could also view the silence as a lack of connection -- of a failure to reach out. Again, even this silence is ambiguous.
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And I am not sure if he got it. A part of me says that perhaps he did -- taking Ennis's silence as an affirmation, since Ennis would have disavowed what Jack said as hogwash, given how many times he had dismissed Jack's overtures in the past. But we could also view the silence as a lack of connection -- of a failure to reach out. Again, even this silence is ambiguous.
JMO:
But the next scene was Ennin's arm around Jack as they slept. Ennis wasn't really big on words, but watch his actions. Maybe that was Ennis's reply to Jack's declaration.
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JMO:
But the next scene was Ennin's arm around Jack as they slept. Ennis wasn't really big on words, but watch his actions. Maybe that was Ennis's reply to Jack's declaration.
Yes,I agree,MG¡.Ang Lee's Ennis is even more sparing in words than the one of the s.s.,but he replaces this with little gestures,often full with tenderness...As in the motel scene,much more demonstrative of his feelings orally in Annie's work;here,the words become caresses in Jack's arm.Really,it's a way of showing his feelings,and in this case,a way of answering Jack's declaration.
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JMO:
But the next scene was Ennin's arm around Jack as they slept. Ennis wasn't really big on words, but watch his actions. Maybe that was Ennis's reply to Jack's declaration.
Very possible. I think Jack understood that he was not very big on words. That embrace was probably the closest we got to an answer.
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Very possible. I think Jack understood that he was not very big on words. That embrace was probably the closest we got to an answer.
Can't help but pop in on this topic again. I agree about the embrace that follows. However, I think we get very close to an answer a little later in final confrontation as well. As Jack knows Ennis isn't big on words, he's been able to read Ennis' need for him since way back in the day. When Jack goes to throw his arms around Ennis, and he is too weak to deny the magnetism, I think "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" after they've both fallen to the ground in an epic embrace is terribly beautiful and sad but also like an answer of sorts..
Also I find it one of several reminders they were given that their thing with each other is life altering love. And this final confrontation they have, this instance, happens to be the one that comes right before the finale of reminders. Maybe the higher power of the mountain simply couldn't let Jack go until he got this close an answer from Ennis, via overpowering, neglected and too often hidden love.
One doesn't control the weather up there on the mountain. On Brokeback, the weather controls you
$)
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Can't help but pop in on this topic again. I agree about the embrace that follows. However, I think we get very close to an answer a little later in final confrontation as well. As Jack knows Ennis isn't big on words, he's been able to read Ennis' need for him since way back in the day. When Jack goes to throw his arms around Ennis and is too weak to deny the magnetism, I think "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" after they've both fallen to the ground in an epic embrace is terribly beautiful and sad but also like an answer of sorts..
Also I find it one of several reminders they were given that their thing with each other is life altering love. And this final confrontation they have, this instance, happens to be the one that comes right before the finale of reminders. Maybe the higher power of the mountain simply couldn't let Jack go until he got this close an answer from Ennis, via overpowering, neglected and too often hidden love.
One doesn't control the weather up there on the mountain. On Brokeback, the weather controls you
$)
orangetruck, you are absolutely right. That was the definitive answer. It is the natural response to Jack's confession the night before. The substance of Ennis's confession is conguent, and of the same substance.
And yes, I also agree that it can only be life-altering. And Jack's beautiful valedictory in the ss (...let be, let be) tells us that he understood that it was as close as he could get.
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orangetruck, you are absolutely right. That was the definitive answer. It is the natural response to Jack's confession the night before. The substance of Ennis's confession is conguent, and of the same substance.
And yes, I also agree that it can only be life-altering. And Jack's beautiful valedictory in the ss (...let be, let be) tells us that he understood that it was as close as he could get.
:)
Jack: sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it
Ennis: I can't stand this anymore Jack ( I also have to note how metaphorical that was to the scene as he falls)
Reminds me also earlier on when they're sorting sheep: "We gotta stick this one out, Jack"
With this, I think his underlying motive is to stick to that 'one shot thing', because he doesn't know better or won't allow it.
But now, time has proven him guilty of having felt love, and now the truth comes out: He just can't call pushing away what he absolutely needs, life. His life is in Jack and he can't stand to ship him away; it's just to Early for that. :s)
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Then this is as close as they get to speak of the love. It's not just having a life together, or being "queer" or who knew what, but what their love meant to each of them. Then Jack wasn't pushing for Ennis make up his mind about a life together, but he wanted to know, "Do you love me?", and Ennis saying "yes".
Now I'm wondering whether Jack felt his love, their love was good for Ennis or not? Help me out here guys.
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:)
Jack: sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it
Ennis: I can't stand this anymore Jack ( I also have to note how metaphorical that was to the scene as he falls)
Reminds me also earlier on when they're sorting sheep: "We gotta stick this one out, Jack"
With this, I think his underlying motive is to stick to that 'one shot thing', because he doesn't know better or won't allow it.
But now, time has proven him guilty of having felt love, and now the truth comes out: He just can't call pushing away what he absolutely needs, life. His life is in Jack and he can't stand to ship him away; it's just to Early for that. :s)
Beautifully stated, orangetruck. I highlight another association that you bring up.
So, I would say that Ennis probably stayed away from a second marriage because he did understand his limits. He probably knew that a second marriage would pull him further away from Jack, and this was something he was not about to confess in that last night before the final confrontation. The answer perhaps to Jack's question would have been: "Because of you."
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Then this is as close as they get to speak of the love. It's not just having a life together, or being "queer" or who knew what, but what their love meant to each of them. Then Jack wasn't pushing for Ennis make up his mind about a life together, but he wanted to know, "Do you love me?", and Ennis saying "yes".
Now I'm wondering whether Jack felt his love, their love was good for Ennis or not? Help me out here guys.
I somehow feel that part of the reason why Jack perhaps decided to move on was because he also felt that something in thee current state of their relationship was not doing Ennis any good. I think this is what you are implying, correct?
I think the marriage question was also in part a probing question to see the state of Ennis's mind. Perhaps Jack did understand that he was part of the reason why Ennis chose not to remarry -- that a remarriage would have pulled them apart even further.
In any case, I do feel that in the end, perhaps Jack felt responsible for Ennis not being happy. The currest state had become intolerable. It was time to move on.
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Beautifully stated, orangetruck. I highlight another association that you bring up.
So, I would say that Ennis probably stayed away from a second marriage because he did understand his limits. He probably knew that a second marriage would pull him further away from Jack, and this was something he was not about to confess in that last night before the final confrontation. The answer perhaps to Jack's question would have been: "Because of you."
A very good answer. :)
I don't necessarily find it strange but intriguing that Jack used a term like 'anyone' rather than woman or gal. :s)
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A very good answer. :)
I don't necessarily find it strange but intriguing that Jack used a term like 'anyone' rather than woman or gal. :s)
Exactly. I sometimes think that perhaps Jack half-suspected whether Ennis didn't remarry because of some other guy besides himself. Perhaps this is far-fetched?
I though that there was a lot of hidden jealousy in that scene. Ennis asking Jack about his marriage after this seems to be just as probing as Jack's query..
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I somehow feel that part of the reason why Jack perhaps decided to move on was because he also felt that something in thee current state of their relationship was not doing Ennis any good. I think this is what you are implying, correct?
I think the marriage question was also in part a probing question to see the state of Ennis's mind. Perhaps Jack did understand that he was part of the reason why Ennis chose not to remarry -- that a remarriage would have pulled them apart even further.
In any case, I do feel that in the end, perhaps Jack felt responsible for Ennis not being happy. The currest state had become intolerable. It was time to move on.
Agree, friend. Someone said long time ago the same thing...(maybe you?), Jack loved Ennis so much and he wanted to stay with him, but maybe he thought that Ennis will be happier without him (less stress, less fear to be outed out, not need to quit jobs...), and maybe he thought that if they had not been together those years Ennis had had a better job and a family. So he decided to move on, for his own sake (to make his dreams come true) and for Ennis sake. People said that when you love someone you do anything to make that person happy, and if being happy means that you have to stay away from the one you love, then you do it...
I know sometimes love is selfish and you prefer stay even if that shatters the life of your lover...but Jack's love was always generous and kind. I keep thinking that he had showed in November...not only because of his love, but because of their 20 years old friendship (and sure he was worried about how Ennis was doing it) but the last time we see him....that bitter extremely sad and tired face speaks of pain, hopeless and despair...I think that in that very moment, not later when maybe he made up his mind, but in that moment he thought that he was never gonna see Ennis again.
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Agree, friend. Someone said long time ago the same thing...(maybe you?). Jack loved Ennis so much and he wanted to stay with him, but maybe he thought that Ennis will be happier without him (less stress, less fear to be outed out, not need to quit jobs...), and maybe he thought that if they had not been together those years Ennis had had a better job and a family. So he decided to move on, for his own sake (to make his dreams come true) and for Ennis sake. People said that when you love someone you do anything to make that person happy, and if being happy means that you have to stay away from the one you love, then you do it...
I know sometimes love is selfish and you prefer stay even if that shatters the life of your lover...but Jack's love was always generous and kind. I keep thinking that he had showed in November...not only because of his love, but because of their 20 years old friendship (and sure he was worried about how Ennis was doing it) but the last time we see him....that bitter extremely sad and tired face speaks of pain, hopeless and dispair...I think that in that very moment, not later when maybe he made up his mind, but in that moment he thought that he was never gonna see Ennis again.
i think you are deffinatly onto something here :)
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I somehow feel that part of the reason why Jack perhaps decided to move on was because he also felt that something in thee current state of their relationship was not doing Ennis any good. I think this is what you are implying, correct?
I think the marriage question was also in part a probing question to see the state of Ennis's mind. Perhaps Jack did understand that he was part of the reason why Ennis chose not to remarry -- that a remarriage would have pulled them apart even further.
In any case, I do feel that in the end, perhaps Jack felt responsible for Ennis not being happy. The currest state had become intolerable. It was time to move on.
That's what I think, that is why Jack had that look on his face when Ennis drove off in the end,and Jack's rememberance of the dozy embrace, he was saying good-bye, and he suffered for that after. It wasn't until after his death, that Ennis understood Jack's suffereng, and his love.
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Agree, friend. Someone said long time ago the same thing...(maybe you?), Jack loved Ennis so much and he wanted to stay with him, but maybe he thought that Ennis will be happier without him (less stress, less fear to be outed out, not need to quit jobs...), and maybe he thought that if they had not been together those years Ennis had had a better job and a family. So he decided to move on, for his own sake (to make his dreams come true) and for Ennis sake. People said that when you love someone you do anything to make that person happy, and if being happy means that you have to stay away from the one you love, then you do it...
I know sometimes love is selfish and you prefer stay even if that shatters the life of your lover...but Jack's love was always generous and kind. I keep thinking that he had showed in November...not only because of his love, but because of their 20 years old friendship (and sure he was worried about how Ennis was doing it) but the last time we see him....that bitter extremely sad and tired face speaks of pain, hopeless and despair...I think that in that very moment, not later when maybe he made up his mind, but in that moment he thought that he was never gonna see Ennis again.
So very true. So many times, lovers go on a self-destruct mode. I know, believe me. Seldom do we encounter enough grace to take things in prespective and do what is best for the other.
Commitment in a marriage is normally taken to be a sign of true love. Sometimes, knowing when to end something is even more significant -- it is certainly much much more rare.
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That's what I think, that is why Jack had that look on his face when Ennis drove off in the end,and Jack's rememberance of the dozy embrace, he was saying good-bye, and he suffered for that after. It wasn't until after his death, that Ennis understood Jack's suffereng, and his love.
In the light of Jack's marriage question, I do sometimes think he asked it out of sheer envy -- trying to know if there is a lucky someone who will have Ennis's commitment, at least publicly, if not sincerely.
Much of Jack's surrering in this regard is to be like an outsider in his own "house", I suppose. He pays the price without tasting the sweets of it all, so to speak.
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In the light of Jack's marriage question, I do sometimes think he asked it out of sheer envy -- trying to know if there is a lucky someone who will have Ennis's commitment, at least publicly, if not sincerely.
Much of Jack's surrering in this regard is to be like an outsider in his own "house", I suppose. He pays the price without tasting the sweets of it all, so to speak.
This is a good point, Jack would have left his marriage at a drop of a hat, but was talk out of it by Ennis, now here Ennis sits divorced, and Jack still married. I can see Jack's confusion, and envy. Jack must have been wondering what really kept Ennis from him, and whose in his bed, when they weren't together.
This could have contribute to Jack's mood the next day, here again they were leaving each other, and he loved Ennis so much. I can understand Jack's frustration, he wanted to know why, he wanted to hurt Ennis, he wanted to love him, it was getting too much. JMO.
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This is a good point, Jack would have left his marriage at a drop of a hat, but was talk out of it by Ennis, now here Ennis sits divorced, and Jack still married. I can see Jack's confusion, and envy. Jack must have been wondering what really kept Ennis from him, and whose in his bed, when they weren't together.
This could have contribute to Jack's mood the next day, here again they were leaving each other, and he loved Ennis so much. I can understand Jack's frustration, he wanted to know why, he wanted to hurt Ennis, he wanted to love him, it was getting too much. JMO.
At first Jack thought that Alma kept Ennis away from him...then he found out that it was not the real reason....and years later Ennis still is alone...so you're right what kept Ennis from him? Who was Ennis sleeping with?
I totally agree with every word you wrote MG!!
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This is a good point, Jack would have left his marriage at a drop of a hat, but was talk out of it by Ennis, now here Ennis sits divorced, and Jack still married. I can see Jack's confusion, and envy. Jack must have been wondering what really kept Ennis from him, and whose in his bed, when they weren't together.
This could have contribute to Jack's mood the next day, here again they were leaving each other, and he loved Ennis so much. I can understand Jack's frustration, he wanted to know why, he wanted to hurt Ennis, he wanted to love him, it was getting too much. JMO.
Excellent. This is exactly the way I would have wanted to elucidate this point!
Well, the final confrontation strikes me sometimes as a squabble between an old married couple where one thinks that the partner's interest is cooling. Jack felt that he had the right to impose on Ennis, as if they were indeed a couple.
But it is true what you say. It is clearly shown in the post-divorce fiasco when Jack mistalenly assumes that a divorce would mean Ennis living with him. He probably never understood in all those years after that what kept him apart from Ennis, even though the latter still had commitments to his children. Since Jack was willing to abandon his own family for a life together, Ennis's being kept apart by the need to provide child support and alimony probably did not make any sense. Perhaps jack had indeed forgotten how hard it was to be poor.
Finally, we all know that the more we love a person, there is that greater potential to hurt him/her during a quarrel. The more you love, the more you can potentially hurt/hate when things get rough.
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At first Jack thought that Alma kept Ennis away from him...then he found out that it was not the real reason....and years later Ennis still is alone...so you're right what kept Ennis from him? Who was Ennis sleeping with?
I totally agree with every word you wrote MG!!
Yes, your last question here was probably very much in Jack's mind. I really think he was suspicious, given that the time spent with Ennis dwindled with each passing year.
During the Final Confrontation, it became clear to Jack that Ennis simply exercised continence, for the most part (i.e., except possibly with Casie). This is shown by Jack's statement: "I'm not you..."
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Yes, your last question here was probably very much in Jack's mind. I really think he was suspicious, given that the time spent with Ennis dwindled with each passing year.
During the Final Confrontation, it became clear to Jack that Ennis simply exercised continence, for the most part (i.e., except possibly with Casie). This is shown by Jack's statement: "I'm not you..."
a agree this "im not you..." suggests to me that jack knew that ennis could survive without sex... if he felt ennis had a secret lover behing jacks back then surely jack wouldnt have said this.
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a agree this "im not you..." suggests to me that jack knew that ennis could survive without sex... if he felt ennis had a secret lover behing jacks back then surely jack wouldnt have said this.
Precisely. The conversation of last night about having nobody else to marry only confirmed this in Jack's mind, IMO.
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Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner. The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack. And there are a variety of lone-wolf types. Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much. It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno. The movie starts with Ennis --- alone, and it ends the same way. And maybe that's all he knew. It's a thought, that's all.
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Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner. The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack. And there are a variety of lone-wolf types. Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much. It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno. The movie starts with Ennis --- alone, and it ends the same way. And maybe that's all he knew. It's a thought, that's all.
I definitly think Ennis is a loner. Would say he was just *made that way* , but that's putting it too simply. I also feel that he had a repressed/shameful part of him.
Like alot of *loner* types like Ennis, they usally do have some deep dark scerets. No one will ever know them, including wives, friends, relatives etc. Though it's the perfect cover, re-marriage is out of the question for him imo, He's learned already,1. He's already in love with Jack, and aint about to let him go again 2., it does'nt replace his need for him,3. It's one more person permanantly situating herself into his relationship with Jack and the essential secrecy of it. Like Alma, someone else to pass judgement on him and Jack. Why would Ennis open himself up to that ...Again??
Jack kept coming back, even times when Ennis found it inconvienient, Jack was there, did'nt tire of him over time,feeding a need Ennis desperatly needed, endearing himself to Ennis just by his preasence. It meant Jack thought somehing of him. He was an important part of someone's life. . He was worth keeping.
I think Ennis was curiously, but secretly attracted to Jack... from the start, but put that part of himself in check, compartmentalized somewhere in a dark corner of his mind, only coming forth when he's * caught off guard* so to speak. When Ennis unconsiously drops that damn guard, it's like watching a flower bloom before your eyes. His smile has energy, and you just know , it's Jack that makes him happy.
Jack, by just being Jack, in close proximity to Ennis on somewhat of a constant basic was able to engage Ennis and bring him out along with this part of him. This quiet, pent-up man who coud'nt recognize true unconditional love if it bit him, free choice robbed from him as a child, had something to say, though he let his actions mostly speak for him, Jack saw he had feelings, fears , likes and dislikes etc... did'nt talk much but, he was human and normal, vulnerable to love in a big way. No one else but Jack was able to do this, Jack saw him and made no judgements, loved Ennis for who he was, faults and all, He felt acceptance coming from Jack therefore he became comfortable with himself a little bit at a time. Ennis, the loner, had finally found a friend. Alma and Cassie could never do this.. He had also became comfortable living with fear and shame. It was all part of what made Ennis...Ennis.
I also feel Jack came to him at a point, 19 yrs. old when he is searching for self-indentification. The Brokeback experience and Jack, gave him the opportunity of a lifetime and the perfect person to let this repressed part of him surface. Still, he denies what he cannot deny, a true *Desperado* like the song by the Eagles says. There's always doubt in him, wether he's married, or with Jack.
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Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner. The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack. And there are a variety of lone-wolf types. Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much. It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno. The movie starts with Ennis --- alone, and it ends the same way. And maybe that's all he knew. It's a thought, that's all.
Tony, that is a thoughtful and perceptive understanding of Ennis.
It never occurred to me that the movie started and ended with Ennis...alone, the truck driver notwithstanding. And once you said it, the image of Ennis, always alone, no matter where he was, who he was with, rings true to me. Perhaps it resonates with the lone-wolf in me. I don't see Ennis as ashamed or repressed except when it comes to his sexuality. I think he was proud and happy to be himself until that summer. Then, all of a sudden, off the mountain and into the alley. He was happy whenever he was with Jack - not a thought of shame or repression - this thing with no reins. He'd be happy to spend the rest of his life with Jack, on the mountain, if he didn't have to make a living.
You are so right that Ennis always felt apart, even dancing with Cassie on the dance floor, or making love to Alma. The only time that he really was connected with anyone was with his daughters, with Alma Jr.
There are many straight men who married, divorced, and remain single the rest of their days. Lone wolves can be straight or gay, or bi, for that matter. Labels are equal opportunity stickers.
When you got nothing, you don't need nothing. That's what Ennis thought of himself...he felt nothing inside, so there is no need to get involved with anyone. The only person who could touch his heart and make him fell alive was Jack. Once Jack was dead, there is no reason to get involve with anyone else. He could just as well live with memories of Jack rather than living with someone else.
JMHO
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No one else but Jack was able to do this, Jack saw him and made no judgements, loved Ennis for who he was, faults and all, He felt acceptance coming from Jack therefore he became comfortable with himself a little bit at a time. Ennis, the loner, had finally found a friend. Alma and Cassie could never do this.. He had also became comfortable living with fear and shame. It was all part of what made Ennis...Ennis.
Aintfoolin, this goes not only to his being a loner, but a loner who, as you've said, finally found a friend. And, of course, probably no one else but Jack could ever have been that friend, as Ennis was exactly what he was looking for - not a bully, shy, strong, and needing someone so very bad. I think a lot of that showed up outside Aguirre's trailer, when Jack....noticed. And, rejected, brushed it off and bided his time. He knew his Ennis, that 1st day. Took Ennis a little while longer, probably.
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Dear Andrew - as you may have noticed, am a klutz even with quoting, but did want to say, your post and aintfoolin's, taken together, really make for a good, no, great reading of Ennis. So much lonesomeness there, it's no wonder he changed, subtly, but harshly, when Alma brought that subject up in the bedroom. She had hit a raw nerve. She'd hit where it really hurt: he had been lonesome, and he was STILL lonesome.
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Dear Andrew - as you may have noticed, am a klutz even with quoting, but did want to say, your post and aintfoolin's, taken together, really make for a good, no, great reading of Ennis. So much lonesomeness there, it's no wonder he changed, subtly, but harshly, when Alma brought that subject up in the bedroom. She had hit a raw nerve. She'd hit where it really hurt: he had been lonesome, and he was STILL lonesome.
Aintfoolin, this goes not only to his being a loner, but a loner who, as you've said, finally found a friend. And, of course, probably no one else but Jack could ever have been that friend, as Ennis was exactly what he was looking for - not a bully, shy, strong, and needing someone so very bad. I think a lot of that showed up outside Aguirre's trailer, when Jack....noticed. And, rejected, brushed it off and bided his time. He knew his Ennis, that 1st day. Took Ennis a little while longer, probably.
Hmm...I agree up to a point about Ennis...loneliness, and about Jack being the only friend Ennis could turn to, comfortably.
However, the transformation in Lightning Flat was also when Ennis found a friend in Jack's Ma. He is no longer lonely. And lets not forget about Alma Jr. I like your choice of words, too, Tony. Lonesome is, to me, someone who is alone, but not feeling lonely. It is like Lonesome Dove, or the Lonesome Cowboy... Ennis is lonesome, but not lonely, not until he met Jack, and was without Jack. Then finding the two shirts, he was never lonely again...only lonesome with memories of Brokeback Mountain.
JMHO.
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Dear Andrew - as you may have noticed, am a klutz even with quoting, but did want to say, your post and aintfoolin's, taken together, really make for a good, no, great reading of Ennis. So much lonesomeness there, it's no wonder he changed, subtly, but harshly, when Alma brought that subject up in the bedroom. She had hit a raw nerve. She'd hit where it really hurt: he had been lonesome, and he was STILL lonesome.
Excellent post Tony, I totally agree. Even within his marriage to Alma, he was still lonesome and I personally feel that he not only enjoyed being alone, but craved it. What ever shaped and molded him growing up got him to this point I believe. Showed no greed unless it was one man's company .. Jack. Just basically he is shy and withdrawn. Often mistaken for being *out of it* or backwards thinking. I feel he likes the feeling of being in his own world, having no use for crowds , or society's rules and regulations. No real expectations or demands. Could get by with the mininmal amount of friends and asscoiates. He questions Jack by the river about people "knowing" he's in love with Jack just by looking at him. ( "You ever get the feelin?"). He was always mindful of people finding out that he was'nt who he appeared to be. Getting married did not change this basic personality trait imo. Moved above the laundry because that's what Alma wanted. Alma threw in the his daughters athsma problem to sway him from living out in the middle of nowhere. but if left up to Ennis?...after the divorce, where did Jack find him? back out in the middle of nowhere again , away from people, just a house, 2 horses ( his other" lil darlins" one for him, one for Jack.) and alot of wide open space. Says alot about Ennis I think. He only felt safe when he was alone. I also think it was part of the reason he *retreated* from Jack's dream . Fear of really connecting with some one and not knowing what to do about it and accepting unconditional love without paying a terrible price for it. Jack got *in* but Ennis drew Jack into his world. Jack connected with Ennis in his world of lonley secrecy only to be held hostage by his love for him.
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Excellent post Tony, I totally agree. Even within his marriage to Alma, he was still lonesome and I personally feel that he not only enjoyed being alone, but craved it. What ever shaped and molded him growing up got him to this point I believe. Showed no greed unless it was one man's company .. Jack. Just basically he is shy and withdrawn. Often mistaken for being *out of it* or backwards thinking. I feel he likes the feeling of being in his own world, having no use for crowds , or society's rules and regulations. No real expectations or demands. Could get by with the mininmal amount of friends and asscoiates. He questions Jack by the river about people "knowing" he's in love with Jack just by looking at him. ( "You ever get the feelin?"). He was always mindful of people finding out that he was'nt who he appeared to be. Getting married did not change this basic personality trait imo. Moved above the laundry because that's what Alma wanted. Alma threw in the his daughters athsma problem to sway him from living out in the middle of nowhere. but if left up to Ennis?...after the divorce, where did Jack find him? back out in the middle of nowhere again , away from people, just a house, 2 horses ( his other" lil darlins" one for him, one for Jack.) and alot of wide open space. Says alot about Ennis I think. He only felt safe when he was alone. I also think it was part of the reason he *retreated* from Jack's dream . Fear of really connecting with some one and not knowing what to do about it and accepting unconditional love without paying a terrible price for it. Jack got *in* but Ennis drew Jack into his world. Jack connected with Ennis in his world of lonley secrecy only to be held hostage by his love for him.
You know, I think what you said summed up Ennis and his response to Jack's sweet life pretty well completely. It was Tony and Jackster who first stated that Ennis is an introvert while Jack is an extrovert. Jack needed people while Ennis needed only his own little world in the middle of no where. I agree with you 100% that whatever shaped and moulded Ennis in his youth, he remained that way, even after Lightning Flat and finding the two shirts. At least, by that time, he moved closer to his daughters, with a mail box in a trailer park that has at least 16 other neighbours. He is no longer afraid, or perhaps more accurately averse to people. He simply preferred the peace and quiet of his own company, his own memories. In the short story, Ennis confessed to thinking about Jack hundreds of times while wringing out (..ahem) sausages.
And what you said makes perfect sense of Jack's frustration at the last scene...I ain't you...After twenty years, Jack finally realized that Ennis needed his own world more than he needed Jack. Jack needed and hungered for Ennis, but Ennis did not know how to get out of the old routine, and step out to a whole new world with Jack, until too late. He preferred to having his apple pie alone in a diner, than putting up with Cassie or risking everything with Jack.
Having said all this, I think what makes Heath's performance special, is that while he portrayed what we said of Ennis above, he also made clear, in his brooding over beer after beer alone in the bar, that first time Cassie went up to dance with him, or his anxious anticipation of Jack that first time in the reunion, or his little kid excitement over their first camping trip, ... and the many scenes of Ennis loving Jack's company. The poor soul just didn't know how to go about changing himself, until too late. That was the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain...Ennis changed too slowly and fate had different ideas for Jack and Ennis.
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You know, I think what you said summed up Ennis and his response to Jack's sweet life pretty well completely. It was Tony and Jackster who first stated that Ennis is an introvert while Jack is an extrovert. Jack needed people while Ennis needed only his own little world in the middle of no where. I agree with you 100% that whatever shaped and moulded Ennis in his youth, he remained that way, even after Lightning Flat and finding the two shirts. At least, by that time, he moved closer to his daughters, with a mail box in a trailer park that has at least 16 other neighbours. He is no longer afraid, or perhaps more accurately averse to people. He simply preferred the peace and quiet of his own company, his own memories. In the short story, Ennis confessed to thinking about Jack hundreds of times while wringing out (..ahem) sausages.
And what you said makes perfect sense of Jack's frustration at the last scene...I ain't you...After twenty years, Jack finally realized that Ennis needed his own world more than he needed Jack. Jack needed and hungered for Ennis, but Ennis did not know how to get out of the old routine, and step out to a whole new world with Jack, until too late. He preferred to having his apple pie alone in a diner, than putting up with Cassie or risking everything with Jack.
Having said all this, I think what makes Heath's performance special, is that while he portrayed what we said of Ennis above, he also made clear, in his brooding over beer after beer alone in the bar, that first time Cassie went up to dance with him, or his anxious anticipation of Jack that first time in the reunion, or his little kid excitement over their first camping trip, ... and the many scenes of Ennis loving Jack's company. The poor soul just didn't know how to go about changing himself, until too late. That was the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain...Ennis changed too slowly and fate had different ideas for Jack and Ennis.
Exactly Lance , he was the ultimate introvert, .. thank you, just the word I was looking for.. He was content to be left alone to make choices or not make choices.,and it may explain Ennis's silence after Jack's confession of not being able to stand it. Maybe to Ennis, it's understood after so many yrs. that words are simply not needed. It's 20 yrs. later and he's still meeting Jack. He can't say he misses Jack too, not out loud, but it does'nt mean he's not thinking them, but he'll keep that to himself knowing he can hardly stand it either. He's not that great with words and probably did'nt want to make an ass out of himself, even in front of Jack, ...especially not in front of Jack, but I think that's what Jack wanted ,liked and loved, Ennis..uncensored .
I suppose Ennis fears the expectations that Jack's confession poses, He knows the statement begs a reply, but he's some one who grew up hard. he will stifle his emotions when it comes to romantic notions and declarations and on the hand this man cried in front of Jack, He also has a sensitive side. .showed how emotionally vulnerable he was to Jack when he thought Jack was gonna quit him.
He's deep, and I guess Jack just had to understand that, but Jack needed so bad to hear it verbally. so deserved it. He had put his own vulnerabilities out front for Ennis to hear. So I think he wanted a sign, some word that Ennis give his proposal a second thought. It was only when Jack reminded him that he once had a better idea, did it really don on Ennis in the confrontation that Jack held steady about .his dream of ranching up with him. . after so many yrs. ago. That Jack had been holding on to this and never waverd from it.
. His father's homophobic teachings come back to haunt him and he finds it hard to trust anybody, but this "thing" had him by the short hairs. There was nothing he could do with it, it just was. Nothing needed changing about it and he did'nt wanna change it. Two men really could feel they belonged together. he knew his daddy was wrong about that. Jack was both devil and angel and he was in love with both of them.
What could he say to Jack's confession? I love you? ,I need You? ,I miss you?... Could Ennis ever look Jack in the eye and tell him these things verbally? Don't think so, it's not his way, not even with Alma. He never said he loved her.....did'nt mean he did'nt want to though, but in this case, he just silently let Jack speak for both of them,
And I think your right he was transformed when he met Mrs. Twist. She instilled in Jack the qualities he loved so much in Jack, the perfect and most logical companion to his *enlightenment* at LF. In her eyes he saw acceptance of what he thought no one could accept. Love between him and her son. No reins?, for as long as he could ride it.? Sweet-talker? Yeah, Think he meant that. But that's the real , uncensored Ennis Jack loved so much. Ennis , the perfect combination of unspoiled chrisma, and quiet vulnerability, so simple, and so complex. imo, very attractive and tempting qualities in that cowboy, . Jack, Alma and Cassie fell for him, so did I. A few more rambling thoughts. Thanx.
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Exactly Lance , he was the ultimate introvert, .. thank you, just the word I was looking for.. He was content to be left alone to make choices or not make choices.,and it may explain Ennis's silence after Jack's confession of not being able to stand it. Maybe to Ennis, it's understood after so many yrs. that words are simply not needed. It's 20 yrs. later and he's still meeting Jack. He can't say he misses Jack too, not out loud, but it does'nt mean he's not thinking them, but he'll keep that to himself knowing he can hardly stand it either. He's not that great with words and probably did'nt want to make an ass out of himself, even in front of Jack, ...especially not in front of Jack, but I think that's what Jack wanted ,liked and loved, Ennis..uncensored .
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And I think your right he was transformed when he met Mrs. Twist. She instilled in Jack the qualities he loved so much in Jack, the perfect and most logical companion to his *enlightenment* at LF. In her eyes he saw acceptance of what he thought no one could accept. Love between him and her son. No reins?, for as long as he could ride it.? Sweet-talker? Yeah, Think he meant that. But that's the real , uncensored Ennis Jack loved so much. Ennis , the perfect combination of unspoiled chrisma, and quiet vulnerability, so simple, and so complex. imo, very attractive and tempting qualities in that cowboy, . Jack, Alma and Cassie fell for him, so did I. A few more rambling thoughts. Thanx.
Ramble on, friend, because I love your rambling, wise and perceptive. I love what you said about what Jack wanted, Ennis...uncensored. That's Ennis jumping down the stairs; that's Ennis kissing Jack with both hands full of passion; that's Ennis in SNIT, in rapturous ecstasy; that's Ennis in the nostalgic dozy embrace. Jack loves finding the depth of Ennis, when what's hidden is released to the light. But after twenty years, Jack was tired of treading water, and wanted a rest. The final meeting was Jack knocking on the walls and doors of Fortress Ennis, and saying I am leaving if you don't open up. Instead of having make-up sex like they always did, allowing Ennis to speak with action and passion instead of words, with Ennis' arm around Jack the morning after, this time, Jack had to watch Ennis driving off, like Ennis did in the summer of '63, watching Jack drove off.
Ennis was trapped in his own fears, his own habits, childhood trauma. It took the immense grief of losing Jack, so suddenly, while filled with hope of a November renewal of their reunion sweet life, when all the emotions that filled the deep and immense dam that he built for 39 years overflows and finally set him free when he found the two shirts after meeting Jack's Ma, with her compassion and acceptance and love.
Yup. I fell for Ennis, too. Censored or not, there ain't no cowboy like THAT cowboy. :c) <^(
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AF and Andrew, thank you so much for your beautiful posts. ^f^ You have moved me deeply.
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Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner. The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack. And there are a variety of lone-wolf types. Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much. It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno. The movie starts with Ennis --- alone, and it ends the same way. And maybe that's all he knew. It's a thought, that's all.
I tend to view Ennis being a loner as more of a symptom rather than a cause. For me, Ennis being a loner is a springboard by which we begin to ask more questions. The repression is a part of this, IMO.
His marriage with Alma did work out reasonably well at the start, even though it was clear that Ennis was not completely happy. Companionship was not requisite for Ennis, but I think he could have worked things out if he wanted, given his increadible stoicism.
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I tend to view Ennis being a loner as more of a symptom rather than a cause. For me, Ennis being a loner is a springboard by which we begin to ask more questions. The repression is a part of this, IMO.
His marriage with Alma did work out reasonably well at the start, even though it was clear that Ennis was not completely happy. Companionship was not requisite for Ennis, but I think he could have worked things out if he wanted, given his increadible stoicism.
I agree with this, his repression, symtomatic of a loner mentality. Loners don't go expressing their innermost secrets to any one, but I feel he carried his experience of Brokeback with him during those 4 yrs apart from Jack. Where was Alma when Ennis was "wrung it out, hundreds of times" thinkn of Jack? Where was the ryhme or reason in this marriage for Ennis. He loved the two precious girls he created with Alma, but apparently they were'nt using "precautions either. Where was the plan for the future with her? No established job prospects or any other sign that he was serious about a future with her was absent.
Everything after the reunion scene with Jack that posed a permanant fixture of interference in the quest to see and meet with jack fell by the wayside. The mindset, and the things he said to Jack in the SS spoke to the fact that what he'd done by lettitng him go and marrying Alma was a mistake. What would Alma think if she knew Ennis thought that he was "stuck" with what he got? Not a very nice loving way to describe a marriage . Sounds to me like there was much to be desired, mainly Jack Twist. MHO.
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I agree with this, his repression, symtomatic of a loner mentality. Loners don't go expressing their innermost secrets to any one, but I feel he carried his experience of Brokeback with him during those 4 yrs apart from Jack. Where was Alma when Ennis was "wrung it out, hundreds of times" thinkn of Jack? Where was the ryhme or reason in this marriage for Ennis. He loved the two precious girls he created with Alma, but apparently they were'nt using "precautions either. Where was the plan for the future with her? No established job prospects or any other sign that he was serious about a future with her was absent.
Everything after the reunion scene with Jack that posed a permanant fixture of interference in the quest to see and meet with jack fell by the wayside. The mindset, and the things he said to Jack in the SS spoke to the fact that what he'd done by lettitng him go and marrying Alma was a mistake. What would Alma think if she knew Ennis thought that he was "stuck" with what he got? Not a very nice loving way to describe a marriage . Sounds to me like there was much to be desired, mainly Jack Twist. MHO.
Thanks AF. I think this partly explains the reason why Ennis was most reluctant to commit to Cassie -- perhaps because he now better understood the mistake of the first marriage. Perhaps Jack should have understood (or did he understand?) that by Ennis's inaction to commit himself after the divorce was -- in a way -- an act of honesty. Ennis couldn't bring himself to live with Jack, but he knew that he (Ennis) could'nt live with anybody else. And so, as in many cases with Ennis, things were left as is -- in a state of unstable equilibrium.
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:clap: to all for such great insights and wonderful discussions! :ghug:
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It never occurred to me that the movie started and ended with Ennis...alone, . . . And once you said it, the image of Ennis, always alone, no matter where he was, who he was with, rings true to me. . . . .
You are so right that Ennis always felt apart, even dancing with Cassie on the dance floor, or making love to Alma. The only time that he really was connected with anyone was with his daughters, with Alma Jr.
Willie Nelson defined cowboys pretty good in his immortal song
"Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"
Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks
Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such
Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
They'll never stay home and they're always alone
Even with someone they love
Cowboys ain't easy to love and they're harder to hold
And they'd rather give you a song then diamonds or gold
Lonestar belt buckles and old faded Levi's each night begins a new day
And if you don't understand him and he don't die young
He'll prob'ly just ride away
Not a bad outline of our man Ennis . . .
Only thing I'd add to your thoughts Lance is that I think he "connected" with Jack too.
(In more ways than one too)
O0
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:clap: to all for such great insights and wonderful discussions! :ghug:
I agree: some wonderful thoughts in this thread.
...They'll never stay home and they're always alone
Even with someone they love...
Certainly not a bad outline of Ennis.
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Willie Nelson defined cowboys pretty good in his immortal song
"Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"
Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
Don't let 'em pick guitars and drive them old trucks
Make 'em be doctors and lawyers and such
Mama don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
They'll never stay home and they're always alone
Even with someone they love
Cowboys ain't easy to love and they're harder to hold
And they'd rather give you a song then diamonds or gold
Lonestar belt buckles and old faded Levi's each night begins a new day
And if you don't understand him and he don't die young
He'll prob'ly just ride away
Not a bad outline of our man Ennis . . .
Only thing I'd add to your thoughts Lance is that I think he "connected" with Jack too.
(In more ways than one too)
O0
Hi, Jackster, thank you for the lyrics of the beautiful song. I agree with you that Ennis connected with Jack. However, I pointed this out below, where I bolded and highlighted the text.
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You are so right that Ennis always felt apart, even dancing with Cassie on the dance floor, or making love to Alma. The only time that he really was connected with anyone was with his daughters, with Alma Jr.
There are many straight men who married, divorced, and remain single the rest of their days. Lone wolves can be straight or gay, or bi, for that matter. Labels are equal opportunity stickers.
When you got nothing, you don't need nothing. That's what Ennis thought of himself...he felt nothing inside, so there is no need to get involved with anyone. The only person who could touch his heart and make him fell alive was Jack. Once Jack was dead, there is no reason to get involve with anyone else. He could just as well live with memories of Jack rather than living with someone else.
JMHO
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When Jack asks why Ennis hasn't married again - " found anyone else to marry" (always sounds to me as if a wife is a bit like a hard-to-locate brand of cornflakes) I think he may be seeing, without being able to identify it in those terms, that Ennis is stuck at a particular point from whih he's never moved on. Alma was there before Ennis met Jack, an obligation which he fulfilled by marrying her after that first summer on the mountain. He did progressively less to keep her and when she left simply accepted it, in a fatalistic Ennis sort of way. He didn't commit to Jack even when Jack appeared having driven all that way under the misapprehension that Ennis wanted him to come,never did anything other than turn up at the pre-arranged meetings. He can't even make himself normalise his position in the Riverton community by marrying again. To me he's stuck just as he was the first time they left the mountain, not knowing what to do or say, all his preconceptions about himself and his life blown apart, in a state ( for the Joyceans among us) of Dublinesque paralysis.
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When Jack asks why Ennis hasn't married again - " found anyone else to marry" (always sounds to me as if a wife is a bit like a hard-to-locate brand of cornflakes) I think he may be seeing, without being able to identify it in those terms, that Ennis is stuck at a particular point from whih he's never moved on. Alma was there before Ennis met Jack, an obligation which he fulfilled by marrying her after that first summer on the mountain. He did progressively less to keep her and when she left simply accepted it, in a fatalistic Ennis sort of way. He didn't commit to Jack even when Jack appeared having driven all that way under the misapprehension that Ennis wanted him to come,never did anything other than turn up at the pre-arranged meetings. He can't even make himself normalise his position in the Riverton community by marrying again. To me he's stuck just as he was the first time they left the mountain, not knowing what to do or say, all his preconceptions about himself and his life blown apart, in a state ( for the Joyceans among us) of Dublinesque paralysis.
That's a good point, that Jack was trying to tell Ennis something about himself, that he was still stuck, like Ennis said at the motel reunion...Dublinesque paralysis...making a living is all I got time for now...I'm stuck with what I have. We return to the sense of powerlessness that Ennis has accepted about himself, and the absence of which he admired in Jack.
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When Jack asks why Ennis hasn't married again - " found anyone else to marry" (always sounds to me as if a wife is a bit like a hard-to-locate brand of cornflakes) I think he may be seeing, without being able to identify it in those terms, that Ennis is stuck at a particular point from whih he's never moved on. Alma was there before Ennis met Jack, an obligation which he fulfilled by marrying her after that first summer on the mountain. He did progressively less to keep her and when she left simply accepted it, in a fatalistic Ennis sort of way. He didn't commit to Jack even when Jack appeared having driven all that way under the misapprehension that Ennis wanted him to come,never did anything other than turn up at the pre-arranged meetings. He can't even make himself normalise his position in the Riverton community by marrying again. To me he's stuck just as he was the first time they left the mountain, not knowing what to do or say, all his preconceptions about himself and his life blown apart, in a state ( for the Joyceans among us) of Dublinesque paralysis.
Very good point, WW. Jack may very well have asked the question, because he himself recognixed, and was perhaps puzzled, that Ennis seemed to have gotten stuck in a sort of lmbo. Perhaps he suspected that he (Jack) was somehow the cause of Ennis's hesitation, and was probing Ennis to see if he could make some headway? I am just speculating here...
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Very good point, WW. Jack may very well have asked the question, because he himself recognixed, and was perhaps puzzled, that Ennis seemed to have gotten stuck in a sort of lmbo. Perhaps he suspected that he (Jack) was somehow the cause of Ennis's hesitation, and was probing Ennis to see if he could make some headway? I am just speculating here...
It's more than probable that Jack,fed up as he was with the situation,wanted even to "force" somehow Ennis to making a move in their relationship.I'm sure he knew he was the cause of his lover's inaction,but this hesitation didn't traduce itself in a hope in their future,even little.It's to say,Ennis (and their relationship with him...)was struck in a kind of "impass" when he could speak with the same words of the motel scene,sixteen years before;he didn't avance neither in giving Jack a future together,or a hint of it,nor in developing a life of his own.Surely,Jack wanted to know what he could wait for,but also,I repeat,force Ennis to decide something about them.
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Thanks MPJ. I think the quarrel by the stream after dinner shown in earlier scene is a clear indication of what you say -- that Jack was always trying to find ways of "forcing" Ennis to make a move. "Impasse" is certaionly the perfect word for the situation, because it would seem that they had reached a point of stasis where each was sort of entrenched in their own positions, and thet there was not significant movement over the years.
The question about marriage shows this, most certainly. It was Jack's attempt to undertand the root of the current impasse between them. Was Ennis being torn in an opposing direction by something/someone else? Why had he remained unmarried yet remained uncommited to him (Jack)? These were questions that Jack perhaps attempted to find answers via this probing inquiry, IMO.
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Thanks MPJ. I think the quarrel by the stream after dinner shown in earlier scene is a clear indication of what you say -- that Jack was always trying to find ways of "forcing" Ennis to make a move. "Impasse" is certaionly the perfect word for the situation, because it would seem that they had reached a point of stasis where each was sort of entrenched in their own positions, and thet there was not significant movement over the years.
The question about marriage shows this, most certainly. It was Jack's attempt to undertand the root of the current impasse between them. Was Ennis being torn in an opposing direction by something/someone else? Why had he remained unmarried yet remained uncommited to him (Jack)? These were questions that Jack perhaps attempted to find answers via this probing inquiry, IMO.
That was awesome. I popped in at such a good time. Thanks, Thomas. I agree, well said. :)
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Thnaks orangetruck. I think many of us have been in Jack's shoes before... It makes his probings more understandable.
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Interesting discussion here, guys. I totally agree with you about Ennis being an introvert, but as tpe says, I tend to think of it as a symptom of what made Ennis tick, rather than the reason behind his actions. He was lonely, did want to be alone, enjoyed being alone, but knew how to let others in to some extent (Alma, Jack). It's the definition of Jack as an extrovert that I can't get my mind around. Sure, he laughed out loud, talked a lot, always seemed open to new situations, but did you ever see him with a friend? He went to dinner with Lureen where he met Randall and the Mouth, but they weren't his friends. We NEVER see him with a buddy. He is always alone. Same for Ennis. I don't see them as being too different when you get right down to it. Jack is noisier, but they both are lonely men. Even when they are alone with one another, they weigh their words. Neither is EVER totally open. The closest they get to the open truth is in the last argument scene when everything just comes pouring out, and even there, Jack back-paddles with his words. He soothes Ennis because he knows Ennis can't take the whole truth.
At least, that's my take on it. I think their personalities are so complex and layered that, as we peel one layer off, we find another deeper, thicker layer to parse. How can we ever figure them out when they couldn't do it themselves?
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Interesting discussion here, guys. I totally agree with you about Ennis being an introvert, but as tpe says, I tend to think of it as a symptom of what made Ennis tick, rather than the reason behind his actions. He was lonely, did want to be alone, enjoyed being alone, but knew how to let others in to some extent (Alma, Jack). It's the definition of Jack as an extrovert that I can't get my mind around. Sure, he laughed out loud, talked a lot, always seemed open to new situations, but did you ever see him with a friend? He went to dinner with Lureen where he met Randall and the Mouth, but they weren't his friends. We NEVER see him with a buddy. He is always alone. Same for Ennis. I don't see them as being too different when you get right down to it. Jack is noisier, but they both are lonely men. Even when they are alone with one another, they weigh their words. Neither is EVER totally open. The closest they get to the open truth is in the last argument scene when everything just comes pouring out, and even there, Jack back-paddles with his words. He soothes Ennis because he knows Ennis can't take the whole truth.
At least, that's my take on it. I think their personalities are so complex and layered that, as we peel one layer off, we find another deeper, thicker layer to parse. How can we ever figure them out when they couldn't do it themselves?
Awesome, lamusica. I think you are onto something here. Jack is not just simply an extrovert. He is an introvert disguising as an extrovert, and getting away with it, until he met Ennis. Then the introvert in him resonated with the intervert in Ennis, and the two fitted each other, like two shirts.
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Interesting discussion here, guys. I totally agree with you about Ennis being an introvert, but as tpe says, I tend to think of it as a symptom of what made Ennis tick, rather than the reason behind his actions. He was lonely, did want to be alone, enjoyed being alone, but knew how to let others in to some extent (Alma, Jack). It's the definition of Jack as an extrovert that I can't get my mind around. Sure, he laughed out loud, talked a lot, always seemed open to new situations, but did you ever see him with a friend? He went to dinner with Lureen where he met Randall and the Mouth, but they weren't his friends. We NEVER see him with a buddy. He is always alone. Same for Ennis. I don't see them as being too different when you get right down to it. Jack is noisier, but they both are lonely men. Even when they are alone with one another, they weigh their words. Neither is EVER totally open. The closest they get to the open truth is in the last argument scene when everything just comes pouring out, and even there, Jack back-paddles with his words. He soothes Ennis because he knows Ennis can't take the whole truth.
At least, that's my take on it. I think their personalities are so complex and layered that, as we peel one layer off, we find another deeper, thicker layer to parse. How can we ever figure them out when they couldn't do it themselves?
Very insightful, lamusica. I must admit that Jack's extrovertion may be a facade -- you are correct when you point out that he was probably just as lonely as Ennis, even though he was seemingly more socially active. Looks are deceiving, to be sure, and you are right to say that their personalities are much more complex and layered than we sometimes make them out to be, especially in the case of Jack.
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You have remarked such a good points here,Lamusica¡.I also agree in that both Ennis and Jack were two loners,for some familiar reasons mainly;but the difference between them lies in that,whereas Ennis closed himself to the others and let hardly nobody to "enter" into his armour,Jack used a friendly way of being to hide his loneliness.I think it was a way to like the others,to open to them and let them "enter" faster...Sometimes we open to the other people as a way to hide our innest way of being and feeling,even if it seems a contradictory phrase.What it's clear in both cases is that they were far more complex that one can see at first sight.
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i often wonder if jacks question to ennis could have possibly been a way to make ennis more comfortable with their situation, Jack knew for all Ennis clearly loved him and wanted to be with him he didnt like the male/male relationship scenario.
maybe the question jack asks was a way to make Ennis feel more like, what he was brought up to think as "normal".
Ennis felt the obligation to be "normal" and settle down with a wife and have children etc.
maybe jack asked this question to show ennis that he still thought he was "normal". Ennis doesnt think of himself as "queer" i mean he says it and imply it multiple times through the movie probably most notalbly in "you know i aint queer" and even more significantly (IMO) when he says to jack "boys like you".
maybe on some level the qeustion was jacks reasurence to Ennis that he didnt think Ennis was "queer".
i mean i dont think this would be the only reason im not even sure it was present as a reason im just brainstorming here lol, how ever i do think posssibly it may have been a factor in jack asking the question even if it was far less promintant then other theories suggested, anyway thanks for reading :)
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Some brokie said over LJ that maybe Jack was trying to prove a point here; that maybe he wanted Ennis to see that the answer for that question is so clear: he didn't marry again because he didn't like women, or well, because he loved Jack, he only wanted Jack and he only wanted to "be" with Jack. Maybe Jack wanted Ennis to realize that he never got married again because he felt that he'd never be happy with another woman, with another person, just only with him. Or maybe he only wanted to prove Ennis that he was indeed gay, no matter what he said all those years...He didn't marry because he liked boys; period.
Well, those are some brokie opinions, and I just wanted to share them with you. ^f^
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i often wonder if jacks question to ennis could have possibly been a way to make ennis more comfortable with their situation, Jack knew for all Ennis clearly loved him and wanted to be with him he didnt like the male/male relationship scenario.
maybe the question jack asks was a way to make Ennis feel more like, what he was brought up to think as "normal".
Ennis felt the obligation to be "normal" and settle down with a wife and have children etc.
maybe jack asked this question to show ennis that he still thought he was "normal". Ennis doesnt think of himself as "queer" i mean he says it and imply it multiple times through the movie probably most notalbly in "you know i aint queer" and even more significantly (IMO) when he says to jack "boys like you".
maybe on some level the qeustion was jacks reasurence to Ennis that he didnt think Ennis was "queer".
i mean i dont think this would be the only reason im not even sure it was present as a reason im just brainstorming here lol, how ever i do think posssibly it may have been a factor in jack asking the question even if it was far less promintant then other theories suggested, anyway thanks for reading :)
Very good point, Matt. It is probable that he may have brought this up partly to reassure Ennis, as you say here. I had not exactly thought about it in these terms, but I there there is more to what you say here than meets the eye...
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Some brokie said over LJ that maybe Jack was trying to prove a point here; that maybe he wanted Ennis to see that the answer for that question is so clear: he didn't marry again because he didn't like women, or well, because he loved Jack, he only wanted Jack and he only wanted to "be" with Jack. Maybe Jack wanted Ennis to realize that he never got married again because he felt that he'd never be happy with another woman, with another person, just only with him. Or maybe he only wanted to prove Ennis that he was indeed gay, no matter what he said all those years...He didn't marry because he liked boys; period.
Well, those are some brokie opinions, and I just wanted to share them with you. ^f^
And a wonderful point of view this is, Tammy. I do like it -- love it. Even if one chooses to disagree with this, one can't deny that it is quite probable -- that it may have been part of why Jack asked the question, or even perhaps a big part of his motivation.
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Thank you, Thomas. ^f^ I like it too.
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Awesome, lamusica. I think you are onto something here. Jack is not just simply an extrovert. He is an introvert disguising as an extrovert, and getting away with it, until he met Ennis. Then the introvert in him resonated with the intervert in Ennis, and the two fitted each other, like two shirts.
You summarized what I was saying beautifully, lance. Maybe we all are the same deep down, but just manifest ourselves differently.
I think Jack asked Ennis this question because deep down, he wanted to know if anyone else was in Ennis's life, man or woman. Since he hadn't married yet, did that mean he didn't want another woman, or did that mean he was done with women and was waiting for a man, OR, did it mean, MAYBE, Ennis was now ready to make Jack a permanent part of his life? We all know what Jack wanted, but he wasn't going to ask for Ennis again; he'd been rejected too many times in the past. But, since Ennis hadn't remarried, there was the possibility that he was now open to making their relationship more like what Jack wanted -- to live together, ranched up by his daddy's place. I think he asked the question to clarify just where he stood with Ennis these days.
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You summarized what I was saying beautifully, lance. Maybe we all are the same deep down, but just manifest ourselves differently.
I think Jack asked Ennis this question because deep down, he wanted to know if anyone else was in Ennis's life, man or woman. Since he hadn't married yet, did that mean he didn't want another woman, or did that mean he was done with women and was waiting for a man, OR, did it mean, MAYBE, Ennis was now ready to make Jack a permanent part of his life? We all know what Jack wanted, but he wasn't going to ask for Ennis again; he'd been rejected too many times in the past. But, since Ennis hadn't remarried, there was the possibility that he was now open to making their relationship more like what Jack wanted -- to live together, ranched up by his daddy's place. I think he asked the question to clarify just where he stood with Ennis these days.
Love your post, amiga. Thank you. ^f^
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You summarized what I was saying beautifully, lance. Maybe we all are the same deep down, but just manifest ourselves differently.
I think Jack asked Ennis this question because deep down, he wanted to know if anyone else was in Ennis's life, man or woman. Since he hadn't married yet, did that mean he didn't want another woman, or did that mean he was done with women and was waiting for a man, OR, did it mean, MAYBE, Ennis was now ready to make Jack a permanent part of his life? We all know what Jack wanted, but he wasn't going to ask for Ennis again; he'd been rejected too many times in the past. But, since Ennis hadn't remarried, there was the possibility that he was now open to making their relationship more like what Jack wanted -- to live together, ranched up by his daddy's place. I think he asked the question to clarify just where he stood with Ennis these days.
And this best sums up what I feel was the reason Jack would ask Ennis this question. Did Ennis find someone else.? Was he still the only one? Surely after all this time, Ennis has at least been approached or propositioned by someone, could it be one reason why Ennis has'nt considered his idea. I agree whole heartedly with your last sentence lamusica, that Jack wanted to know where he stood with Ennis after so many yrs.
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Or could it be guilt? Jack by this time must have been in a full blown affair with Ranall. Ennis's statement "all those things I don't know". Seems to me that he must have suspected something. If it was just seeking prostitutes OK, that distressing enough, but to think that there's one particular person, that's something you really don't want to know about, but you would warn against, like Ennis warns Jack.
Jack's "what do you want from me" attitude added fuel to fire, his foul mood the day after his questioning Ennis wasn't enough for him, and again Ennis seem to be putting distant between them by pushing back the date of the next meeting.
I think Jack might suspect he was being punish for even wanting to be with Ennis. Ennis seem to think tightening that leash on Jack was keeping him close to him. JMO.
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Or could it be guilt? Jack by this time must have been in a full blown affair with Ranall. Ennis's statement "all those things I don't know". Seems to me that he must have suspected something. If it was just seeking prostitutes OK, that distressing enough, but to think that there's one particular person, that's something you really don't want to know about, but you would warn against, like Ennis warns Jack.
Jack's "what do you want from me" attitude added fuel to fire, his foul mood the day after his questioning Ennis wasn't enough for him, and again Ennis seem to be putting distant between them by pushing back the date of the next meeting.
I think Jack might suspect he was being punish for even wanting to be with Ennis. Ennis seem to think tightening that leash on Jack was keeping him close to him. JMO
Could be guilt yes, he was involved with Randall at the time, but perhaps Jack felt threatened by the fact that Ennis was out there footloose and fancy free. Vulnerable to men or women while he is still trapped in a stifling marriage to Lureen. Ennis was'nt committing to him, and Ennis could hook up with anyone he wanted, ...there is a waitress named Cassie, who has talked about a future endeavours (nursing school) with Ennis. Ennis never let on to Jack that he had *several dates* with her , at least one involving his child, (Alma Jr.)or that he had slept with her. This could be percieved to Jack as some one vying for his man's affections. Who was she? how'd he meet her? how serious was she? . All these questions may have crossed Jack's mind. Perhaps Jack was jealous himself.
Cassie was in love with Ennis, unlike Jack's affairs outside their own relationship. Did Jack love Randall? hmmm to me only mere substitutes for Ennis's physical absences and Jack
's living in Childress. IMO, she was as much of a threat to Jack as Randall was to Ennis. He was sleeping with Randall yes, but not at the expense of loosing Ennis forever to some waitress, just as 10 Cassies' would'nt equal the worth of one Jack Twist to Ennis. Niether one of these guys went out in search of Cassie and Randall . Both of these people sought Jack and Ennis out. They were both vulnerable to *outsiders* because they were not together enough. Jack was right " Never enough time, "never enough". Just another way of looking at it In MO , Thanx.
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Or could it be guilt? Jack by this time must have been in a full blown affair with Ranall. Ennis's statement "all those things I don't know". Seems to me that he must have suspected something. If it was just seeking prostitutes OK, that distressing enough, but to think that there's one particular person, that's something you really don't want to know about, but you would warn against, like Ennis warns Jack.
Jack's "what do you want from me" attitude added fuel to fire, his foul mood the day after his questioning Ennis wasn't enough for him, and again Ennis seem to be putting distant between them by pushing back the date of the next meeting.
I think Jack might suspect he was being punish for even wanting to be with Ennis. Ennis seem to think tightening that leash on Jack was keeping him close to him. JMO.
Hmmm... I say: definitely, MG. It could very well involve an admixture of guilt. And I do think that Ennis did read between the lines as far as what Jack told him in this scene and in the Final Confrontation. Jack indeed did seem unusually confessional in this scene, and bringing up the affair with the texas neighbor's wife is certainly very confessional in nature, IMO. Guilt certainly played a role here, IMO.
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I feel Jack that wanted to know if there is anyone in Ennis life..he wanted to be with Ennis and wanted him to be with no other woman or man but him....although he casually asked him about a woman but would not stand or even bear the thought that Ennis would be interested in another man.....no way
Tell me about it. Here is where I don't know, the word "irony" comes in to play. Anyway, I've alway thought Jack had the perfect right to ask that question. When Jack said "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." What was Ennis response? He said nothing, as if he knew what that would lead to. Ennis was being very careful.
I completey agree with this...Ennis dint want to repy as it would get too emotional for the 2 to handle
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I feel Jack that wanted to know if there is anyone in Ennis life..he wanted to be with Ennis and wanted him to be with no other woman or man but him....although he casually asked him about a woman but would not stand or even bear the thought that Ennis would be interested in another man.....no way
I completey agree with this...Ennis dint want to repy as it would get too emotional for the 2 to handle
Thanks for sharing your POV, smartestsonia. So like some of the others in this discussion, you do sense a thread of jealousy in Jack when he started asking Ennis about marrying and all?
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Thanks for sharing your POV, smartestsonia. So like some of the others in this discussion, you do sense a thread of jealousy in Jack when he started asking Ennis about marrying and all?
He wanted to make sure that there is no one else in Ennis life..now he wanted to ask this question casually so that there is no scene created..so he casually asked..now he would be crazy jelous and hurt if Ennis would be with another man..he never wanted someone else to share what they have...so the most appropriate way to ask is that if he has another woman in his life as Jack would be too scared and hurt to even think that there could be another man...he would ofcourse be jealous even if a woman would be there ..although another man would make it worse...
He just wanted Ennis and nothing else ...Ennis was only his...
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Marriage for Jack or Ennis was never a jealousy issue for either of them: Their FOREVER love was not in any way threatened by a wife or a new woman. Sort of like a woman having an affair with a married man: As long as he only has sex with her and his wife, everything is just fine. But bring on another woman and all hell breaks loose! Jack was OK with Ennis "putting the blocks to" Cassie, but he may have asked the question just to see if Ennis would proclaim his undying love for Jack alone...
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I think both of them understoodd that there was a risk of not appearing normal, and each understood that marriage might have been a necessary cover. But Jack, I think, understood that marriage would always be a wedge to their plans for a sweet life. So he must have wondered whether Ennis staying single hinted that he was half-considering the possibility, and that this in and of itself, caused Ennis to take pause.
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Jack still needed to be sure what was on Ennis mind..whether there is a slightest chance for Ennis and jack to live togetehr..if he gets married to someone else then there is no way they can live together or spend more time together...
he was also curious of what the future can be like so he asked that qs...
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I think both of them understoodd that there was a risk of not appearing normal, and each understood that marriage might have been a necessary cover. But Jack, I think, understood that marriage would always be a wedge to their plans for a sweet life. So he must have wondered whether Ennis staying single hinted that he was half-considering the possibility, and that this in and of itself, caused Ennis to take pause.
Jack still needed to be sure what was on Ennis mind..whether there is a slightest chance for Ennis and jack to live togetehr..if he gets married to someone else then there is no way they can live together or spend more time together...he was also curious of what the future can be like so he asked that qs...
I've always thought that there's a mixture of thoughts and sensations behind this question on the part of Jack:yes,he knew that a marriage had been the perfect cover for not appearing "weird" in front of this little and narrow-minded community.But,at the same time,he knew that this marriage had been an step back in his aspiration to share with Ennis something more than furtive moments they could rob every several months.What's more,according to how the new wife was,even these few days could be more difficult to spend...
Also he could be simply curious about how a person like Ennis,so afraid about what people could say,could risk himself on being object of gossips by his singleness.And,on a deeper stage,if in this denial on getting married,he(Jack) had something to do with;as a matter of fact,he needed to know-as you ,Smartestsonia,say very well-what was passing on Ennis mind,what he was thinking about the both of them for the future.
With a little of jealousy also behind the question,because,on one hand,Ennis wanted to remain single for not running away from his love;but,on the other hand,maybe Jack was afraid that not having a life together after so many years and being Ennis single,was because this last was beginning to be tired of the situation or(why not?) of Jack himself.I repeat,it's a mixture of feelings:curiosity,fear,illusion,jealousy,hope,...After all,Jack had to learn to be a very complex person because of the situation along the years.
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Jack still needed to be sure what was on Ennis mind..whether there is a slightest chance for Ennis and jack to live togetehr..if he gets married to someone else then there is no way they can live together or spend more time together...
he was also curious of what the future can be like so he asked that qs...
I've always thought that there's a mixture of thoughts and sensations behind this question on the part of Jack:yes,he knew that a marriage had been the perfect cover for not appearing "weird" in front of this little and narrow-minded community.But,at the same time,he knew that this marriage had been an step back in his aspiration to share with Ennis something more than furtive moments they could rob every several months.What's more,according to how the new wife was,even these few days could be more difficult to spend...
Also he could be simply curious about how a person like Ennis,so afraid about what people could say,could risk himself on being object of gossips by his singleness.And,on a deeper stage,if in this denial on getting married,he(Jack) had something to do with;as a matter of fact,he needed to know-as you ,Smartestsonia,say very well-what was passing on Ennis mind,what he was thinking about the both of them for the future.
With a little of jealousy also behind the question,because,on one hand,Ennis wanted to remain single for not running away from his love;but,on the other hand,maybe Jack was afraid that not having a life together after so many years and being Ennis single,was because this last was beginning to be tired of the situation or(why not?) of Jack himself.I repeat,it's a mixture of feelings:curiosity,fear,illusion,jealousy,hope,...After all,Jack had to learn to be a very complex person because of the situation along the years.
Both of you say it here so wonderfully. Yes, I think there are multiple motivations behind Jack's probing question about marriage. He certaionly must have had very mixed feelings about this, given that Ennis had originally refused the proposal of a sweet life because of his marriage to Alma and the need to care for his family.
It is the jealousy part that intrigues me. Sometimes, we just have to know, don't we? Even if some things can hurt us, we feel the compulsion to know the truth. And yet, sometimes, we forget that there is no simple truth to answer a seemingly simple question...
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Both of you say it here so wonderfully. Yes, I think there are multiple motivations behind Jack's probing question about marriage. He certaionly must have had very mixed feelings about this, given that Ennis had originally refused the proposal of a sweet life because of his marriage to Alma and the need to care for his family.
It is the jealousy part that intrigues me. Sometimes, we just have to know, don't we? Even if some things can hurt us, we feel the compulsion to know the truth. And yet, sometimes, we forget that there is no simple truth to answer a seemingly simple question...
true..he just wanted to know the truth..it must have hurt Jack so much when Ennis refused to live a life with him...and now he wanted to know if it is possible ...a part of him must have been so scared of rejection..but he was like.."i need to know what can happen",,,being in love can be hurting but cannot be denied...
he must be jealous when Ennis would live with Alma and not with him and he was happy (I feel) when Ennis divorced Alma..the happiness came with the hope of living with Ennis...this qs. was very appropriate to know of his hopes could actually become a reality...
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true..he just wanted to know the truth..it must have hurt Jack so much when Ennis refused to live a life with him...and now he wanted to know if it is possible ...a part of him must have been so scared of rejection..but he was like.."i need to know what can happen",,,being in love can be hurting but cannot be denied...
he must be jealous when Ennis would live with Alma and not with him and he was happy (I feel) when Ennis divorced Alma..the happiness came with the hope of living with Ennis...this qs. was very appropriate to know of his hopes could actually become a reality...
I never thought much about Jack, being Ennis obsessed that I am. You bring up a good point. After the divorce scene, Jack was so devastated that the rejection drove him all the way to Mexico. It's hard to imagine if he could get up the courage to ask Ennis again, to propose the sweet life. But hope springs eternal and perhaps that is why he still drives 14 hours each way two three times a year.
Finding somebody to marry .... was perhaps his oblique way of approaching the subject to see how Ennis would react. When he went on this tirade about the cute little waitress, Jack's jealous almost made him tell about Randall. It might have been better if he did, then they would have the night to work out what to do about it. But instead, he went on about the wife, and Ennis just made fun of it.
It's really tragic that they never were able to talk openly about the most important thing in their lives.
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I never thought much about Jack, being Ennis obsessed that I am. You bring up a good point. After the divorce scene, Jack was so devastated that the rejection drove him all the way to Mexico. It's hard to imagine if he could get up the courage to ask Ennis again, to propose the sweet life. But hope springs eternal and perhaps that is why he still drives 14 hours each way two three times a year.
Finding somebody to marry .... was perhaps his oblique way of approaching the subject to see how Ennis would react. When he went on this tirade about the cute little waitress, Jack's jealous almost made him tell about Randall. It might have been better if he did, then they would have the night to work out what to do about it. But instead, he went on about the wife, and Ennis just made fun of it.
It's really tragic that they never were able to talk openly about the most important thing in their lives.
Yes,you're right too...But,as I said in another thread,sometimes is difficult to hear the truth when you're not prepared.Both of them had preferred to speak using double meaning,shy hints,half-truths in sum,more than having a real communication.A real verbal communication,not only all the kind of other communications they surely had and that worked fine.Too many fears,doubts and denials between them... :-\\
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Yes,you're right too...But,as I said in another thread,sometimes is difficult to hear the truth when you're not prepared.Both of them had preferred to speak using double meaning,shy hints,half-truths in sum,more than having a real communication.A real verbal communication,not only all the kind of other communications they surely had and that worked fine.Too many fears,doubts and denials between them... :-\\
yup. too many fears, doubts and denials...
Love is the courage to overcome the fears, like Jack did in FNIT.
Love is the faith to wipe away the doubts, like Ennis sitting by the fire before SNIT.
Love is the honesty to face down the denials, like Cassie in the diner with Ennis.
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true..he just wanted to know the truth..it must have hurt Jack so much when Ennis refused to live a life with him...and now he wanted to know if it is possible ...a part of him must have been so scared of rejection..but he was like.."i need to know what can happen",,,being in love can be hurting but cannot be denied...
he must be jealous when Ennis would live with Alma and not with him and he was happy (I feel) when Ennis divorced Alma..the happiness came with the hope of living with Ennis...this qs. was very appropriate to know of his hopes could actually become a reality...
I had wondered if Jack would have been "content" had Ennis agreed to the same multiple meetings every year -- without diminishing the number. My feeling is that Jack would have remained dissatisfied, since it was probably in his mind that he could inevitably convince Ennis to move in with him.
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I certainly don't think he would have been happy about it, but would tell himself "I'll take any time I can get".
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I had wondered if Jack would have been "content" had Ennis agreed to the same multiple meetings every year -- without diminishing the number. My feeling is that Jack would have remained dissatisfied, since it was probably in his mind that he could inevitably convince Ennis to move in with him.
I think he wanted to be with Ennis all the time..that was his wish..however, he knew the fears that Ennis was living in..so he would try to spend as much as time that Ennis could be with him and make the most of it...he would convince himself....although he would always want to be only with Ennis...that was his dream....
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Personally, I had always thought that Jack was just biding his time -- waiting for an opportunity when he could finally convince Ennis to live with him. The post-divorce fiasco is very revealing -- Jack had assumed that since Alma was no longer Ennis's wife, then there would be no impediment to their living together. He realized however that the impediments went deeper than that. I think this incident has a great deal to say about jack's later question to Ennis about not getting married, don't you think?
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Personally, I had always thought that Jack was just biding his time -- waiting for an opportunity when he could finally convince Ennis to live with him. The post-divorce fiasco is very revealing -- Jack had assumed that since Alma was no longer Ennis's wife, then there would be no impediment to their living together. He realized however that the impediments went deeper than that. I think this incident has a great deal to say about jack's later question to Ennis about not getting married, don't you think?
I deeply agree,Thomas.It's sure that incident was in Jack's mind when asking this; he didn't want to repeat this mistake and be sure of what he could hope about Ennis position.
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Personally, I had always thought that Jack was just biding his time -- waiting for an opportunity when he could finally convince Ennis to live with him. The post-divorce fiasco is very revealing -- Jack had assumed that since Alma was no longer Ennis's wife, then there would be no impediment to their living together. He realized however that the impediments went deeper than that. I think this incident has a great deal to say about jack's later question to Ennis about not getting married, don't you think?
ya I think so too...I mean for Jack the divorce of Ennis was a hope for them to live together...later when he asked Ennis that qs. he did have in mind that Ennis has no one else in his life and he is divorced...so there could be a slightest possiblty for them to be together...Jack always hoped that...
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Thanks myprivatejack and smartestsonia!
Like what MPJ has said, I feel that Jack was being cautious when he asked the question the night before the last confrontation. He didn't want to get burned a second time -- he didn't want to make the same mistake.
And as smartestsonia noted doen, I think it was also a cautious testing of the waters -- Jack always trying to find an opening to the possibility of living his dream of a sweet life. But it was no longer as open as the previous ones. It was a more subtle probing.
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Thanks myprivatejack and smartestsonia!
Like what MPJ has said, I feel that Jack was being cautious when he asked the question the night before the last confrontation. He didn't want to get burned a second time -- he didn't want to make the same mistake.
And as smartestsonia noted doen, I think it was also a cautious testing of the waters -- Jack always trying to find an opening to the possibility of living his dream of a sweet life. But it was no longer as open as the previous ones. It was a more subtle probing.
ya the probing had to be subtle else it would freak out Ennis...Jack knew Ennis too well so he had to ask it in a very casual manner...
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Especially about marriage -- Ennis was especially touchy about this. Observe for example how he mocked Jack when he suggested that Ennis move out of Riverton. Then again, Ennis knew EXACTLY what was on jack's mind -- and had no patience for it. prhaps Ennis was being realistic? Or was he just plain stubborn? Perhaps both...
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Yeah, I think he was both realistic and stubborn. Also, he was terrified of the tire iron.
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Yeah, I think he was both realistic and stubborn. Also, he was terrified of the tire iron.
I quote this too.And I'd add that,as you have remarked,Thomas,Ennis knew almost always what was on Jack's mind,and almost always too,more than Jack knew what was on Ennis mind and his own mind even.
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Thanks atalley and MPJ.
MPJ: the maxim "Know thyself" is not always a simple and straightforward thing, no? Sometimes we don't know how much we know, or at least not realize that we had known something all along...
atalley: it is chillingly true -- the tire iron was never far from his thoughts. More so than marriage, or the pretense of it.
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I never thought much about Jack, being Ennis obsessed that I am. You bring up a good point. After the divorce scene, Jack was so devastated that the rejection drove him all the way to Mexico. It's hard to imagine if he could get up the courage to ask Ennis again, to propose the sweet life. But hope springs eternal and perhaps that is why he still drives 14 hours each way two three times a year.
Finding somebody to marry .... was perhaps his oblique way of approaching the subject to see how Ennis would react. When he went on this tirade about the cute little waitress, Jack's jealous almost made him tell about Randall. It might have been better if he did, then they would have the night to work out what to do about it. But instead, he went on about the wife, and Ennis just made fun of it.
It's really tragic that they never were able to talk openly about the most important thing in their lives.
so true....they did not bring the important issues up..probably due to lack of time that they spent together that they wanted to just be close to each other and not make the situation depressing by bring up the topic or they feared that it could lead to a huge fight and eventually be seperated for a lifetime..I feel that, that fear was also there...so Jack asking Ennis about of why he dint find anyone to marry was a safe way of probing without creating a tense atmosphere
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If this shows anything it shows that both, Jack and Ennis had the knack of avoiding painful issues. Remember Ennis was afraid to tell Jack that he had to change the date of the next meeting, and he held on that piece of news for a week.
It's amazing how they avoided direct issues that would cause them to sit and speak about this "thing". They will talk about wives, kids, the freakin' weather. But they never discuss themselves as a unit, connected, as one half of a whole heart. JMO.
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Has anyone thought that there may have been a bit of sarcasm from Jack asking Ennis this question? Just a bit of anger. Perhaps even a dig at Ennis for choosing to marry Alma over him post-Brokeback in Signal, when he knew good and well,deep down ,his heart already belonged to Jack? Anger and frustration ,that after all that time, Ennis is still refusing to acknowledge the honest truth. Calling Ennis out on what was the mistake he and Ennis knew in marrying Alma in "63",? That Jack knew or sensed way back then ,that the marriage to any woman would'nt work? After all, it was he who sent the first postcard during his own screwed up marriage ( of which he'd had enough) knowing full well that Ennis may be married to Alma, settled ,and unwilling to rekindle Brokeback? Then being turned down again by Ennis post-divorce. Perhaps Jack knows Ennis, better than Ennis knows himself.
He knew all along that what happened with himself personally, and especially with Ennis on Brokeback was not just just some passing fancy about two friends who had some slight crush and acted on it for a few months, he knew something changed Ennis from the reluctant cowboy, he met one day in Aguirre's trailor. A mutual * meeting of the minds* in SNIT that something profound had happened to both of them that changed them forever. Many yrs. later, Ennis is still unmarried , unwilling to make such a mistake twice, yet refusing to ranch up with him. perhaps Jack thinking on account of him, Ennis cannot love anyone else , man or woman that way ever again. Maybe after 20 yrs. he still holds out for hope that Ennis will come to his senses and see that he might as well ranch up together, for that is the only way Ennis will be truly happy... fearful and cautious, but happy.
I agree with all the above posts that Jack was indeed probing to find where he stood. He had to ask for the many different reasons posted, finally he just says he can hardly stand living apart from Ennis, but is met with silence, though I feel he knows by now what Ennis's problems are. Ennis fears what Jack represents about who he feels he is himself, and Jack knows there's no way out of loving Ennis despite it. Thanx
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Has anyone thought that there may have been a bit of sarcasm from Jack asking Ennis this question? Just a bit of anger. Perhaps even a dig at Ennis for choosing to marry Alma over him post-Brokeback in Signal, when he knew good and well,deep down ,his heart already belonged to Jack? Anger and frustration ,that after all that time, Ennis is still refusing to acknowledge the honest truth. Calling Ennis out on what was the mistake he and Ennis knew in marrying Alma in "63",? That Jack knew or sensed way back then ,that the marriage to any woman would'nt work? After all, it was he who sent the first postcard during his own screwed up marriage ( of which he'd had enough) knowing full well that Ennis may be married to Alma, settled ,and unwilling to rekindle Brokeback? Then being turned down again by Ennis post-divorce. Perhaps Jack knows Ennis, better than Ennis knows himself.
He knew all along that what happened with himself personally, and especially with Ennis on Brokeback was not just just some passing fancy about two friends who had some slight crush and acted on it for a few months, he knew something changed Ennis from the reluctant cowboy, he met one day in Aguirre's trailor. A mutual * meeting of the minds* in SNIT that something profound had happened to both of them that changed them forever. Many yrs. later, Ennis is still unmarried , unwilling to make such a mistake twice, yet refusing to ranch up with him. perhaps Jack thinking on account of him, Ennis cannot love anyone else , man or woman that way ever again. Maybe after 20 yrs. he still holds out for hope that Ennis will come to his senses and see that he might as well ranch up together, for that is the only way Ennis will be truly happy... fearful and cautious, but happy.
I agree with all the above posts that Jack was indeed probing to find where he stood. He had to ask for the many different reasons posted, finally he just says he can hardly stand living apart from Ennis, but is met with silence, though I feel he knows by now what Ennis's problems are. Ennis fears what Jack represents about who he feels he is himself, and Jack knows there's no way out of loving Ennis despite it. Thanx
I always kind of felt that way too that the question wasn't about women at all or marriage, like you say Jack was calling Ennis out about THEIR relationship and Jack had gotten cynical after many years of waiting and being turned down especially after Ennis got divorced. The vague question might have been too vague for Ennis to comprehend (maybe not though because I feel Ennis understood a lot more than he expressed and could read Jack pretty well) but when Ennis started talking about Cassie and asking Jack about women, then Jack had to finally come out with the "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" line. I think Ennis knew what was being expressed by Jack but didn't know how to put his own feelings into words so he just kept quiet.
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I always kind of felt that way too that the question wasn't about women at all or marriage, like you say Jack was calling Ennis out about THEIR relationship and Jack had gotten cynical after many years of waiting and being turned down especially after Ennis got divorced. The vague question might have been too vague for Ennis to comprehend (maybe not though because I feel Ennis understood a lot more than he expressed and could read Jack pretty well) but when Ennis started talking about Cassie and asking Jack about women, then Jack had to finally come out with the "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" line. I think Ennis knew what was being expressed by Jack but didn't know how to put his own feelings into words so he just kept quiet.
exactly...thats why he dint say anything after Jack told him that "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" line..he knew that it would lead to an outbreak of all the repressed emotions and he just felt that he was not prepared for it...Jack had so many hidden intentions in his mind when he asked ennis if he had found someone to marry and all..itwas a mixture of frustration and sarcasm..all other conflicting emotions of love, hurt, denial...he knew that both were living incomplete lives...he had so much hurt in his heart that Ennis chose a life with alma over him..although he never gave up on his dream to live with ennis..he thought that Ennis was just not prepared to live together and Ennis was not..so the ideal way was to bring up the topic of what ennis is actually upto....the anwer was dam casual on Ennis behalf..Jack did not bring up the topic of Mexico...he knew that it would drive Ennis over the edge...so they spoke about all light stuff...finally Jack told Ennis I miss you so much I can hardly stand it"...so that is the bottom line above all ..... Jack did say in a way what he wanted to and Ennis felt the pain and love but stopped at that..the fears were too much in him to go ahead on that :\'(
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Good points. It's a little difficult to figure out exactly what Ennis was thinking at this time (after "sometimes...I can hardly stand it"). Maybe the look of defeat? I'm not 100% sure on this one.
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Good points. It's a little difficult to figure out exactly what Ennis was thinking at this time (after "sometimes...I can hardly stand it"). Maybe the look of defeat? I'm not 100% sure on this one.
well i feel Jack has alot of regret that he really wanted to live with Ennis and his dream dint come true..so alot of regret of where life has got them..once in a while meeting up and long periods of seperation..along with that there is so much of love and affection for each other...thats what the line "I miss u so much i can hardly stand it" means according to me...
as for Ennis i felt after he heard the above lines a part of him did wanted to goto jack and embrace him and reciprocate and tell him how hard it is for him and how much he misses him too..but i feel the fear of losing control and not being able to stand his own emotions stopped him from going further...this is seen in many instances of the fim with Ennis where he does not want to spend more time with Jack as he fears of the society as well as what his family will think...for Ennis it is a mixture of love, resistence as well as fear
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I also find it difficult to read Ennis at that moment. Certainly, part of it must have been a silent acknowledgement to Jack that it was the same with him. But I also think that part of it was a degree of unease -- an unease of Jack sort of crossing an invisible line and admitting things (such as vulnerability) that Ennis would think is best left unsaid. If there is a word to describe Ennis at that moment, it is probably "conflicted."
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I also find it difficult to read Ennis at that moment. Certainly, part of it must have been a silent acknowledgement to Jack that it was the same with him. But I also think that part of it was a degree of unease -- an unease of Jack sort of crossing an invisible line and admitting things (such as vulnerability) that Ennis would think is best left unsaid. If there is a word to describe Ennis at that moment, it is probably "conflicted."
I agree with this, Thomas. ^f^
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Thanks Tammy.
I must admit that I find this particular exchange between Jack and Ennis (the night before the final confrontation, I would assume) to be especially rich in so many levels of meaning. The key to their misunderstanding and -- yes -- their love for each other can be read in this one little scene that is so full of indirection and implied meanings...
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They probably had been feeling the effects of the pot and the $), also.
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well when Jack asked Ennnis the qs that he dint find anyone to marry there were implied meanings to it like is there someone in Ennis life or can he move on..that night he expressed to Ennis what he felt for him..Ennis on the other hand obviuosly felt the same and he was like lets keep it unsaid as if said it can be too painful to deal with...He dint do that intentionally..thats how Ennis was. Ennis is one of those people who could not use words too much.However if Ennis would have opened up that night the story would have taken a different mode in which there would be more solace as Jack would atleast have the satisfaction that finally Ennis through words or even through hugs or caress at that moment could emote what he wanted to....as that was kinda absent from Ennis at that time and the fact that Ennis would not be meeting him so often lead to the final confrontataion which left both of them so much pain and suffering
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Awhile back I went on a major rant about the communication ..or lack thereof between these two. ...Well..here I go again. After twenty years of secret love ( shared ,and all the sacrifices, both taking the same risk to be together, all the mutual understanding of why they had to hide, you would think that they could talk this out at least with each other. IMO it's the one major factor that limited them in the relationship. Ennis is still wound up tighter than a rubberband ball, and Jack has to to be a mindreading , wishful thinker. No, Ennis was'nt great with words, but neither was Jack, but some one should have been able to get their message across loud and clear without having to resort to what happen in the confrontation scenes. Could either of them read between each other's lines and just say it, whatever it may be?. Once again, poor Jack is pouring his heart out about how much he needs Ennis and goes further in saying he can "hardly stand it" anymore and what does he get? A coy smile and silence. At least he has taken the intiative, leaving Ennis an opening as wide as the Grand Canyon!. Then during the conversation leading up to the confrontation, Ennis is trying to explain his responsibilities to Jack, and Jack thinks Ennis is playing games, or playing him. Both of them carry underlying anger about the roles they play within the relationship, but keep it hidden, until it explodes in a series of accusations and frustrating blame. Had they been able to communicate earlier and often , their relationship would have made better sense to both of them. They should know after 20 yrs neither was going to judge the other no matter what they did or said right? or wrong?
Another rant over!!... Thanx
They probably had been feeling the effects of the pot and the $), also.
Well, it gets pretty cold up in the mountais at night, ..perhaps some herb and a few sips of Old Rose had a "warming" effect later that night. ;)In any case that practice would make any one feel melancholy and reminiscent about the past, present or future of one's life.
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Awhile back I went on a major rant about the communication ..or lack thereof between these two. ...Well..here I go again. After twenty years of secret love ( shared ,and all the sacrifices, both taking the same risk to be together, all the mutual understanding of why they had to hide, you would think that they could talk this out at least with each other. IMO it's the one major factor that limited them in the relationship. Ennis is still wound up tighter than a rubberband ball, and Jack has to to be a mindreading , wishful thinker. No, Ennis was'nt great with words, but neither was Jack, but some one should have been able to get their message across loud and clear without having to resort to what happen in the confrontation scenes. Could either of them read between each other's lines and just say it, whatever it may be?. Once again, poor Jack is pouring his heart out about how much he needs Ennis and goes further in saying he can "hardly stand it" anymore and what does he get? A coy smile and silence. At least he has taken the intiative, leaving Ennis an opening as wide as the Grand Canyon!. Then during the conversation leading up to the confrontation, Ennis is trying to explain his responsibilities to Jack, and Jack thinks Ennis is playing games, or playing him. Both of them carry underlying anger about the roles they play within the relationship, but keep it hidden, until it explodes in a series of accusations and frustrating blame. Had they been able to communicate earlier and often , their relationship would have made better sense to both of them. They should know after 20 yrs neither was going to judge the other no matter what they did or said right? or wrong?
Another rant over!!... Thanx
well said...However, even though they had a high comfort level as they were in love for 20 years due to lack of emoting verbally they felt as if so much is left to be told and whether the other will reciprocate back or not....
The final confrontation is heart breaking as it simply shows that all the repressed emotions just came out and there should have been no piling up of that..but there was and so it became worse...they never spoke about how they felt...finally jack came close and told that he misses him so much he can hardly stand it...it all bottoms up to the fact that he loves him and just wants to be with him..nothing else mattered
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I read all the posts and I am still at a loss to understanding the scene. There are so many possible interpretations and possible reasons for their words.
I think that is the beauty of the movie, that it reflects life so well. There are often times in life, when there are no obvious and clear answers. I think this is one of them.
I mean, here is a question being asked in the context of the many broken marriages of the seventies and eighties, in the context of rural America in fear of the gay liberation movement going on in the big cities, in the context of the two poor rural ranch hands who struggled to make their living and finding some happiness in their lives, in the context of Jack just finished saying earlier on that he and Lureen has the kind of relationship that can carry on over the phone...normal and all. So, the question is not "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?" The question underlying Jack's question is, "What we got, ain't it better than any marriage you can find? Isn't it time we think about the cow and calf operation again?"
When Ennis misunderstood the question and responded with the line that he's putting the blocks on this little waitress...etc, Jack had no way to continue, except to put in his own infidelity to make the pot even.
I just don't understand, why was it so difficult to just come right out to ask the real question. It is as if there is always this shadow of doubt, of fear of rejection, that surrounds their love, so that they can only experience it without words in the tent. It must be a guy thing. Two lesbians would have had the balls to talk it out. Pun intended.
The tragedy is not just the repressed and oppressed love, but the love denied because there was no communication because either side, or both sides, could not articulate what they want, for fear of looking bad, fear of rejection, fear of...fear.
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Lancecowboy, I totally agree with you. I also feel the deeper meaning of Jack's question seemed to go right over Ennis's head. It seemed liked both were afraid of any real verbal honesty though Jack did at least try to express his emotional frustration , just did'nt go far enough, still too vague. Did Jack feel that Ennis "just could'nt handle the truth".. ? That it would scare someone like Ennis off. Or was Jack too scared himself to say goodbye and risk hurting Ennis? Ennis's hurt was his own hurt, but...
If Ennis loved and needed Jack like we suspect, or had such an emotional loving bond over 20 yrs. then why would Ennis ever leave or break up with him? Marry another woman? %( They shared many intimate secrets, some that showed the relationship was deep, no doubt there, but I keep feeling that it was up to Jack to initiate bolder communication, Ennis just was'nt gonna do it as part of his inner conflict, compared to Jack, who was more open, confident, and accepting of who he really was. ...Or maybe not. Maybe as well as Jack read and knew Ennis, there was a part of Jack that could'nt deal with loss or rejection , or the finality of once again loosing Ennis. This time there was no Alma between them, only Ennis's stubborn fear which proved to be the bigger, tougher obstacle than any wife or waitress. I just feel that after so many years more verbal declarations of love were due if that was indeed the the case. Both Jack and Ennis could've used the reassurance of those three little words.
Although I rant about the lack of communication, I accept things were as they were, It's just sad when i think of what might've been, had Jack survived . Ennis sent the last post card to Jack to meet after all, not a sign that Ennis was gonna let go or reject Jack after the confrontation. Jack's words just may have gotten thru and Ennis was maybe thinking of giving the sweet life a shot . Sadly we'll never know, but dreaming's free right?
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Interesting points, aintfoolin. I am not sure if Jack was trying to say goodbye to Ennis. Somehow, I don't think Jack would ever willingly let go of Ennis. I think it was after the last confrontation, when Ennis blurted out, "I can't take this any more Jack." "I am nothing, I am no where." Then Jack decided to try his luck else where, perhaps with Randall...finding someone else to marry, so to speak. Perhaps that's the other underlying meaning in the question. That Jack found some else other than Ennis. I don't agree with it, but interesting point.
Yes, the fear of rejection, which Jack already suffered enough times, over and over, was part of the problem. Ennis had done the rejecting for so long, that, perhaps he didn't know how to make the proposal to Jack. The postcard was just his way of trying to patch things up, for another chance to come face to face, and make things right. Too bad his attempt came too little too late.
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I read all the posts and I am still at a loss to understanding the scene. There are so many possible interpretations and possible reasons for their words.
I think that is the beauty of the movie, that it reflects life so well. There are often times in life, when there are no obvious and clear answers. I think this is one of them.
I mean, here is a question being asked in the context of the many broken marriages of the seventies and eighties, in the context of rural America in fear of the gay liberation movement going on in the big cities, in the context of the two poor rural ranch hands who struggled to make their living and finding some happiness in their lives, in the context of Jack just finished saying earlier on that he and Lureen has the kind of relationship that can carry on over the phone...normal and all. So, the question is not "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?" The question underlying Jack's question is, "What we got, ain't it better than any marriage you can find? Isn't it time we think about the cow and calf operation again?"
When Ennis misunderstood the question and responded with the line that he's putting the blocks on this little waitress...etc, Jack had no way to continue, except to put in his own infidelity to make the pot even.
I just don't understand, why was it so difficult to just come right out to ask the real question. It is as if there is always this shadow of doubt, of fear of rejection, that surrounds their love, so that they can only experience it without words in the tent. It must be a guy thing. Two lesbians would have had the balls to talk it out. Pun intended.
The tragedy is not just the repressed and oppressed love, but the love denied because there was no communication because either side, or both sides, could not articulate what they want, for fear of looking bad, fear of rejection, fear of...fear.
well those r interesting observations..as u said one possiblity can be that it was a guy thing....they could not express what they felt in words...I think there was a fear of rejection which would be too hard to bear.,,I also feel imo that Jack had more fear of this as he knew how repressive Ennis was...I mean Ennis did have lot of fear in his mind due to his childhood experience of gays being killed as well a the fact that Ennis dint wana live with him ...when those attempts of Jack failed he filt that he needs to be happy wth what he has..although he was not..he wanted to be a major part of Ennis life...When he asked Ennis the question about marriage he had a lot of mixed emotons in his heart..all coming through that one line asking that can they finally live togther, is someone else in Ennis life also or just make Ennis speak up something thats in his heart and mind...He asked it when both were in a very chilled out mood....he asked it so casually and calmly eve though am sure there was a flood of emotions gushing in him...he dint wana make ennis uncomforatble at all....When he finally told Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much that he can hardly stand it...Ennis did feel the sam etoo.....we can make out by the look he gave Jack at that time..Although for Ennis to say anything beyond that would have made the situatione very vulnerable ..so Ennis just lets go..the next scene of the film both r sleeping in the tent and Ennis is holding Jack....that is Ennis caresssing jack and expressing to him that he feels the same way <^(
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well those r interesting observations..as u said one possiblity can be that it was a guy thing....they could not express what they felt in words...I think there was a fear of rejection which would be too hard to bear.,,I also feel imo that Jack had more fear of this as he knew how repressive Ennis was...I mean Ennis did have lot of fear in his mind due to his childhood experience of gays being killed as well a the fact that Ennis dint wana live with him ...when those attempts of Jack failed he filt that he needs to be happy wth what he has..although he was not..he wanted to be a major part of Ennis life...When he asked Ennis the question about marriage he had a lot of mixed emotons in his heart..all coming through that one line asking that can they finally live togther, is someone else in Ennis life also or just make Ennis speak up something thats in his heart and mind...He asked it when both were in a very chilled out mood....he asked it so casually and calmly eve though am sure there was a flood of emotions gushing in him...he dint wana make ennis uncomforatble at all....When he finally told Ennis that sometimes he misses him so much that he can hardly stand it...Ennis did feel the sam etoo.....we can make out by the look he gave Jack at that time..Although for Ennis to say anything beyond that would have made the situatione very vulnerable ..so Ennis just lets go..the next scene of the film both r sleeping in the tent and Ennis is holding Jack....that is Ennis caresssing jack and expressing to him that he feels the same way <^(
it htink the section ive bolded sounds very plausible i mean from my little obsivations of peopl in general (which may be totally wrong) i seem to see that guys taken rejection worse then girls.
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it htink the section ive bolded sounds very plausible i mean from my little obsivations of peopl in general (which may be totally wrong) i seem to see that guys taken rejection worse then girls.
True Matt--about rejection! Somewhere in the short story, Annie wrote that, according to Jack, NOTHING had worked out in his life the way he had hoped. So why not ask Ennis about the M word--and expect a less than positive answer? Jack sooo wanted a proclamation of eternal love from Ennis, but when he didn't get it, he continued by stating, "Sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it!" And in a way Ennis did make a statement to Jack that night by sleeping with his arm lovingly draped over Jack! #)
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it htink the section ive bolded sounds very plausible i mean from my little obsivations of peopl in general (which may be totally wrong) i seem to see that guys taken rejection worse then girls.
Ain't that the truth...! I think women have known for a long time that men have fragile egos. ::)
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Their fragility is only matched by their desire to be in control. In the case of Ennis and Jack, they seemed to have ceeded a great deal of control to the women -- in which case, they felt that couldn't cede much more to each other.
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Their fragility is only matched by their desire to be in control. In the case of Ennis and Jack, they seemed to have ceeded a great deal of control to the women -- in which case, they felt that couldn't cede much more to each other.
:s) Not sure I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis and Jack never had control in the lives, being poor ranchand and all. And they never wanted control with each other, at least from the story or the movie... not like they were into bondage and such...(not that there is anything wrong with that, if that's your cup of tea, just that Ennis and Jack never did) Then again, there was that scene with the rope... :s)
Nah.... :c)
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:s) Not sure I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis and Jack never had control in the lives, being poor ranchand and all. And they never wanted control with each other, at least from the story or the movie... not like they were into bondage and such...(not that there is anything wrong with that, if that's your cup of tea, just that Ennis and Jack never did) Then again, there was that scene with the rope... :s)
Nah.... :c)
Your comments are just waaay too funny! I guess you can't say anything about anything, even S/M, without possibly insulting someone! I agree that Jack and Ennis did not try to control each other in any way whenever they were together--they were two bookends--and in their love for each other. And neither one controlled his wife. Alma told Ennis to wipe Junior's nose, and persuaded Ennis to move into town; Lureen's control was a no-brainer. So when Jack asked this thread question, it was understood that if Ennis had found another woman, Jack's relationship with him would remain pure and perfect. :^^)
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Interesting points, aintfoolin. I am not sure if Jack was trying to say goodbye to Ennis. Somehow, I don't think Jack would ever willingly let go of Ennis. I think it was after the last confrontation, when Ennis blurted out, "I can't take this any more Jack." "I am nothing, I am no where." Then Jack decided to try his luck else where, perhaps with Randall...finding someone else to marry, so to speak. Perhaps that's the other underlying meaning in the question. That Jack found some else other than Ennis. I don't agree with it, but interesting point.
Yes, the fear of rejection, which Jack already suffered enough times, over and over, was part of the problem. Ennis had done the rejecting for so long, that, perhaps he didn't know how to make the proposal to Jack. The postcard was just his way of trying to patch things up, for another chance to come face to face, and make things right. Too bad his attempt came too little too late.
It is interesting that Ennis says it's because of Jack, he is "nothing" and "nowhere". It sums up the way Ennis feels about himself concerning how the relationship has affected his life. At least half his adult life has been spent revolving around Jack for reasons he does not understand or accept...yet Jack Twist remains very important in his life. Jack is some one he cannot just let go of, yet he cannot fully embrace either. I've often felt it was an unfair statement to Jack because on the surface it contains the element of blame, yet it does have a ring of truth to it, only it's not Jack's fault that Ennis chose to participate in the relationship, not Jack's fault that Ennis quit jobs, or failed at marriage. No one forced Ennis to do what it took in order to continue seeing Jack. When Jack presented himself, Ennis had a choice.
Jack did feel Ennis was something and was somewhere. In love , but in denial. In that sense Jack could claim "nothing" and "nowhere" too, because of his love for Ennis, he is doomed to a half life existence instead of a life lived to the fullest. At the risk of sounding *fanfic like* I saw Jack's proposal of a sweet life with Ennis on par with a marriage proposal. If he could've married Ennis, he would've. His motives have been clear from the beginning. What Ennis can't "take anymore" is his own confusion and conflict, the secrecy, guilt, and denial inflicted on Jack, himself, and the relationship.. MO.Thanx.
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Awesome post, AF. I agree. Thank you. ^f^
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I agree, aintfoolin, awesome post.
You bring up a few points worth elaboration, I think.
First and foremost is the equivalence between the sweet life proposal, and a marriage proposal. I have often used the word proposal myself, without explicitly stating it as a marriage proposal, but I think Ennis understood it as such. It reminded him of Earl and Rich...and the sad tragic tale. Jack understood it as such, too. The major difference, of course, is that society does NOT recognize it as such, and therefore, it is surrounded by fear and uncertainly from the beginning, and never stood a chance to blossom and take root. It is why I admire gay couples who can stand the test of time, and make their relationships last.
Secondly, I can see that Jack also took Ennis' Because of you, that I am like this. I am no where. I am nothing. It is perhaps the motivator that Jack needed to let go, to seek out Randall at great risk. When couples say things in a moment of anguish, it often leads to unwanted consequences.
Finally, I don't see Ennis is to blame either. Love is worse than any addiction known to men. Ennis simply can't help himself, when it comes to Jack F#$king Twist. There ain't no reins on this one. As long as Jack kept sending 'em postcards, Ennis will keep coming up the mountain for 'em high altitude f#@ks a few times a year. In fact, even when Jack don't send them postcards, Ennis managed to send one of his own. It was still too little, too late. Although, if Jack were alive to receive the postcard, he would jump for joy and drove up from Texas all fourteen hours.
JMO
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:s) Not sure I agree with you here, tpe. Ennis and Jack never had control in the lives, being poor ranchand and all. And they never wanted control with each other, at least from the story or the movie... not like they were into bondage and such...(not that there is anything wrong with that, if that's your cup of tea, just that Ennis and Jack never did) Then again, there was that scene with the rope... :s)
Nah.... :c)
That is true: they were never in control. But this doesn't change the fact of what I said in the previouis post: that they always desired to be in control. In the case of Jack, it meant the sweet life. With Ennis, it was mastery and control of his own deep-seated fears. In both cases, the marriages made things more complicated -- it is in this that the women held the keys.
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"I wish I knew how to quit you" v. "Its because of you Jack I'm like this."
I've always thought that Jack and Ennis thought one had control over the other. They gave each other that power, but felt they themselves had no control. JMO
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"I wish I knew how to quit you" v. "Its because of you Jack I'm like this."
I've always thought that Jack and Ennis thought one had control over the other. They gave each other that power, but felt they themselves had no control. JMO
Could it be, perhaps, they enjoy the out of control feeling, of no reins, like riding a piece of stock for eight seconds. They don't need control to feel the passion, the love between them. Finding someone else to marry would be meaningless by comparison, as surely as Jack find Lureen's relationship irrelevant by comparison to the love between him and Ennis. When you have a roller coaster ride of corkscrewing proportions, why settle for a little buggy ride?
Just a thought. Not sure if it is true for our cowboys or not.
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I agree Andrew. It reminds me of what Paul Newman once said..."why go out for hamburger when you've got steak at home?" No marriage could fulfill what they had with one another.
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These guys sat around the "old camp fire" trying to figure out their lives, when all the time it was looking at them straight in the face.
While trying to figure out the "womenfolk" when they really weren't the problem. Jack put in a nutshell, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
That was the problem, the "plausible deniablity" of it all. They would have to face the fact that they loved each other head on and stop "two stepping" around it.
IMO
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Yup. Agreed, manhattangirl. They been two-stepping around the pink-elephant in the room, the one called "society" or "peer pressure" or "social opinions" or what have you, that they forgot or neglected their own feelings.
You are right on when you say that the solution is right in front of them, right in their hearts. The problem was not anyone else, not even society. The problem was their own culpability in denying their own love for each other.
:c) ^f^
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Jack didn't leave Loraine and move to be near Ennis cause life happened in the inbetween. He had a son. He had a family. He had security. An Ennis had told him NO. Give Jack credit he knew what livin near Ennis would be like. It was bad enough only two or three times a year being rejected. Try takein that kind of pain two or three times a week. You call that a life? Chasin Ennis around, all over Wyoming? Leave all in Texas for that? No way. Just like some of us, Jack made his own mind up to stand livin with second best all them years. Cause when you cant fix it you got to stand it, right?
This was in response to discussion over in Surreptitious Glances but Chameau pulled this link out of his bag of tricks. If you want to see what I'm responding to.
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I don't claim to be a Jack expert, Ranchand, and I don't blame Jack for not moving closer to Ennis.
But, I think, in the end, when Jack settled for second best, he got what he settled for. :\'(
Ennis was wrong to deny and reject his own love for so long, no question about that.
Jack was courageous and tenacious to hold on, hang on, drive on for all 'em years.
No doubt about the love between those two, back in those days...if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it.
But what if, Jack had burned his bridges and sank his ships, so to speak...moving to Lightning Flats with his folks. He can tell Ennis, I am here waiting for you, if you want the sweet life. I don't have anyone else but you, and I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it. But I ain't putting up with no more a couple high altitude f@#$ a few times a year. You want it, cowboy? You come and get it. I am tired of driving all 'em miles. It's your turn.
I bet you a silver dollar that Ennis would drive up there to Lightning Flats faster than a greased pig. That's what could have, should have happened that November when Ennis and Jack meet again. :\'(
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Me personally, I've always thought Jack played by Ennis's rule. Jack made one offer, he would leave Lureen, takes LD's money and not look back. But Ennis nixed that idea. When Ennis got his divorce Jack drove to him, and got turned away, he would have stayed if Ennis told him to stay.
Jack only thought was to be with Ennis, and did what Ennis wanted him to do, he did stay married, and I don't believe out any obligation as a father or husband, because Ennis wanted him there, and to come to him those few times a year. Do you really think if Jack moved any where out of Texas Ennis would follow, I don't think so.
This is the ironic part of this story. Ennis so keen on marriage and its obligations divorced, and Jack, who would leave everything behind for Ennis, stayed in his marriage till his death.
Some may fault Jack for wanting to leave his marriage, but think about it, Jack was the more honest, the most true to himself and paid a price for it. JMO.
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I stand corrected, manhattangirl. Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis.
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I don't claim to be a Jack expert, Ranchand, and I don't blame Jack for not moving closer to Ennis.
But, I think, in the end, when Jack settled for second best, he got what he settled for. :\'(
Ennis was wrong to deny and reject his own love for so long, no question about that.
Jack was courageous and tenacious to hold on, hang on, drive on for all 'em years.
No doubt about the love between those two, back in those days...if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it.
But what if, Jack had burned his bridges and sank his ships, so to speak...moving to Lightning Flats with his folks. He can tell Ennis, I am here waiting for you, if you want the sweet life. I don't have anyone else but you, and I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it. But I ain't putting up with no more a couple high altitude f@#$ a few times a year. You want it, cowboy? You come and get it. I am tired of driving all 'em miles. It's your turn.
I bet you a silver dollar that Ennis would drive up there to Lightning Flats faster than a greased pig. That's what could have, should have happened that November when Ennis and Jack meet again. :\'(
I tend to very much agree with you . No one really knows what the reasons are ,why Jack never proposed moving closer to Ennis nor the affect this would have on Ennis, Jack never pinpointed a particular state or town to have their cow and calf operation at the time he proposed,, but chances are, it would'nt be Riverton. He knows Ennis is paralyzed and paranoid there. At one point he tried to coax Ennis out of Wyoming to try for Texas, or Mexico. Perhaps jack found in those places, even in those times, people were a little more open-minded than the fire and brimestone crowd in Riverton. Or maybe he felt two people could more easily *get lost* in the crowd , in a more populated area.find a little more freedom ,and not draw such suspicion.
I love your Jack *burning bridges and sinking ships.* Laying it all out for Ennis...from a distance. I have often felt that Jack should've *tested* Ennis. Challenged the strength of Ennis's love and need. Your scenario would be interesting to see. Jack, holed up in LF, calling on Ennis for once to come to him, the proposal of ranching up still on the table. Ennis either wants it or he does'nt. Ennis either wants, loves and needs HIM, or he does'nt. That may take a while , but time will tell.
Both Jack and Ennis had choices. Their future together hung in the balance according to those choices. Jack says yes, proposed they stay together, live together, Ennis says no way . An impass, but they love each other. Can't stay away from each other, but neither can stand the staus quo. Both had the power of love in their favor. In that, they were equal.
They are both getting something from the other. Something they both crave ( and goes much deeper than just sex). It's called a life. A sense of completion? acceptance and understnding? whatever, so how does Jack get Ennis to budge? Give Ennis a little something to think about and time . Let Ennis stew, think about what his personal life would be like with and without Jack, and how that affects who or what he becomes. Jack must prepare himself for rejection, or after a reasonable period of time he must prepare to move on.
Jack cannot *force* Ennis to do anything, but thru the hard choices he makes, he can compel Ennis to make some hard choices of his own. In time he will get the answers he needs, good or bad. I think it took alot of courage and a certain amount of humility for Ennis to send that last post card after the confrontation he had with Jack. . before he knew of Jack's death. If he was being truthful, he was *nuthin*, and *nowhere* cause a Jack? To still initiate another meeting. admitting to himself , he needed Jack in spite of it.... having to admit that though he had'nt acheived much in the way of material posessions,he knew it was Jack who made him something and somwhere. Imo, he just missed Jack Twist something awful as a part of his life. Sadly he waited to late to *fix it*.MO Thanx.
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That's a great thought provoking post, aintfoolin.
I agreed with manhattangirl that Jack wasn't about to divorce Lureen and move to Lightning Flats to see if Ennis might perhaps meet him half way.
I agree with you that it'd be interesting scenario to see. And as you said, by the time Ennis sent that postcard, he was ready. I really believe that.
It's easy to play armchair cupid and say what the cowboys would do, but I bet all the thinking about burning bridges and sinking ships were what drove Jack to drinking in the first place. What if he left all that and got nothing, not even the couple f@#$ a few times a year? He can't live with that, and he can't live without that...so he settled for second best, not the second best family in Texas...the second best option with Ennis, when Ennis couldn't accept the sweet life.
Ennis made the choice for Jack. So Jack just gotta stand it. He didn't know how to quit. :\'(
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Fantastic comments everyone. I'm blown away. :ghug:
Ranchand, you said that so well and I agree with you. I posted about this in the Surreptitious Glances thread because it was mentioned there too. Here's the link:
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1276.msg835314#msg835314 (http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1276.msg835314#msg835314)
I give fair warning. It got a bit long-winded. :i
lc, this broke my heart:
"Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis."
So true. :-\\ And Ennis was forced into it as well. He had to stand it because he didn't know how to fix it. Not because he didn't want to. Because he truly believed it wasn't possible. In a better world, finding their soulmates and loving each other for a lifetime would've brought only joy, not conflict and pain.
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I stand corrected, manhattangirl. Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis.
Personally, I don't see it so much as forced by Ennis. I see it more as Jack and Ennis trying to come to terms with Enis's internal struggles. They understood each other, and I think that in spite of Jack's accusation at the Last Confrontation, both understood that the marriage question was just a byword to the true conflict that both were trying to come to terms with.
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[...]
lc, this broke my heart:
"Jack didn't settle for second best. He was forced into it by Ennis."
So true. :-\\ And Ennis was forced into it as well. He had to stand it because he didn't know how to fix it. Not because he didn't want to. Because he truly believed it wasn't possible. In a better world, finding their soulmates and loving each other for a lifetime would've brought only joy, not conflict and pain.
:ghug: FlwrChild :^^) :c) ^f^
In a better world, no love is denied.
Lovers are free to be.
Love blossoms in the beauty of youth,
matures in the share struggles of daily living,
and finds comfort in peace while growing old.
May we all live in a better world.
:ghug: :c) ^f^
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:ghug: FlwrChild :^^) :c) ^f^
In a better world, no love is denied.
Lovers are free to be.
Love blossoms in the beauty of youth,
matures in the share struggles of daily living,
and finds comfort in peace while growing old.
May we all live in a better world.
:ghug: :c) ^f^
And the world can certainly become a better place without such denial.
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:ghug: FlwrChild :^^) :c) ^f^
In a better world, no love is denied.
Lovers are free to be.
Love blossoms in the beauty of youth,
matures in the share struggles of daily living,
and finds comfort in peace while growing old.
May we all live in a better world.
:ghug: :c) ^f^
I will pray for that day to come soon...Its hope that keeps life going and lets live by that hope :ghug:
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Personally, I don't see it so much as forced by Ennis. I see it more as Jack and Ennis trying to come to terms with Enis's internal struggles. They understood each other, and I think that in spite of Jack's accusation at the Last Confrontation, both understood that the marriage question was just a byword to the true conflict that both were trying to come to terms with.
I completely agree. They most definitely (undercover as it may have been) understood each other. Hence, the question. Marriage aside, Ennis' being with another woman suggests that Ennis was fundamentally unchanged. Comforting, nostalgic in the way that this tolled the bridge to Brokeback every now and then. But Jack couldn't bare being an indifference to their love anymore. The truth was to come out of both, if not directly: Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it: I can't stand this anymore, Jack.
But I guess ya don't really know whatcha got 'til it's gone. Jack hadn't presented himself quite so lonely in front of Ennis before the night prior to Last Confrontation, had he? Maybe this let Ennis know that someone could and had felt like him, and a crossroad was met after one last night together..
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I completely agree. They most definitely (undercover as it may have been) understood each other. Hence, the question. Marriage aside, Ennis' being with another woman suggests that Ennis was fundamentally unchanged. Comforting, nostalgic in the way that this tolled the bridge to Brokeback every now and then. But Jack couldn't bare being an indifference to their love anymore. The truth was to come out of both, if not directly: Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it: I can't stand this anymore, Jack.
But I guess ya don't really know whatcha got 'til it's gone. Jack hadn't presented himself quite so lonely in front of Ennis before the night prior to Last Confrontation, had he? Maybe this let Ennis know that someone could and had felt like him, and a crossroad was met after one last night together..
Alas, perhaps they understood each other all too well. Sometimes, the element of the unexpedted -- of surprise -- is necessary to kick us out of our comfort zones. As you said here, the comfort of an unchanging Ennis and Jack perhaps got the better of both of them.
And yes, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" and "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" are true pendants to each other, voicing how each of them were -- in reality -- miserable under the unchanging status quo.
Loneliness has an alienating quality. Loneliness makes it difficult for us to express to other people the depth of our loneliness. I hope this doesn't sound paradoxical to you...
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Alas, perhaps they understood each other all too well. Sometimes, the element of the unexpedted -- of surprise -- is necessary to kick us out of our comfort zones. As you said here, the comfort of an unchanging Ennis and Jack perhaps got the better of both of them.
And yes, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" and "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" are true pendants to each other, voicing how each of them were -- in reality -- miserable under the unchanging status quo.
Loneliness has an alienating quality. Loneliness makes it difficult for us to express to other people the depth of our loneliness. I hope this doesn't sound paradoxical to you...
Similarly, that night was like a confirmation of how content each man was with their status. In other words it was a measurement of fear in each of them. Jack speaks out against hiding from the world. Ennis does not.
No, I don't think I get paradoxical from that. The thing I see about lonliness is that yes, you feel alone. Hence, where is your energy or support? Without it, you don't have much aptitude to give or, rather, express to anyone.
Alas, a crossroad.
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Similarly, that night was like a confirmation of how content each man was with their status. In other words it was a measurement of fear in each of them. Jack speaks out against hiding from the world. Ennis does not.
No, I don't think I get paradoxical from that. The thing I see about lonliness is that yes, you feel alone. Hence, where is your energy or support? Without it, you don't have much aptitude to give or, rather, express to anyone.
Alas, a crossroad.
If I understand you correctly here, you refer to their seeming compacency in that scene. In this sense, I do agree: there was an appearance of contentment, shallow it may have been.
After all, loneliness breeds a certain type of "contentment".
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If I understand you correctly here, you refer to their seeming compacency in that scene. In this sense, I do agree: there was an appearance of contentment, shallow it may have been.
After all, loneliness breeds a certain type of "contentment".
Yes, but let's not put confusion between contentment and resignation as it was in another thread. :c)
Perhaps Jack was resigning from the loneliness that comes with one last night with Ennis, and Ennis was only handicapped with contentment (loneliness) as he wouldn't possess the strength for resignation until the significance of losing Jack (re:shirts) presented the opportunity.
In short, Ennis would always be on a journey for love but he would unfortunately never truly know this until he had known Jack. Now that he can remember Jack, remember love, he can go from 9 to 10. Because now he knows, like Jack, love is inside; perversely, he can even touch and finger it. Button it up a little. In this sense, he resigns from having been rendered to think this love thing could never be of his functionality. Alone in his trailer without Jack hurts but it's no longer Earl as the figure on his deck of cards.
Here in the context of their last night on the mountain together I can see it as contentment, sure. But later on when he's holding the ghost of Jack upstairs is Ennis content? No, I think that's crazy.
I think if Ennis is seen as content at the end of the story, he is being seen by someone who needs to but can't stop projecting himself into Ennis' shoes. Hence, it would be more comfortable to call it contentment. It helps to alleviate the sense of having been "wrong" in a relationship, I would figure. But is it ever "wrong" to love someone: If it ain't broke don't fix it
Ennis won't have to answer this question any longer: Jack, I swear.
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Loneliness was part of their lives, it was them. i think this recognized loneliness they found in each other was what attracted them. you saw that when they were by the fire, drinking whiskey discussing their lives. they understood that loneliness. Jack's not being validated by his father, Ennis internalizing his feelings, his thoughts until Jack.
loneliness is what brought them together, and kept bringing them together, because no matter who they were with in their separate lives, they were still lonely and needed the only other person who understand that loneliness.
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Good points, MG and OT.
I do agree that loneliness was a part of their lives, and the scene under discussion is suffused with it.
I should probably clarify what I mean by "contentment" in my previous post. It is slightly different from resignation.
Sometimes, we say that people are content to let things go the way they are -- not because they are happy or even resigned. They do this because they fear change. In the context of loneliness, alienation can lead us to a false sense of security, such that we fear any advent of change. Hence, we may feel content in our loneliness not because we are happy or resigned; rather, we are content to leave things as they are because we are afraid to see how or waht can develop if we allowed things to move on.
This is the meaning I want to convey relative to that night before the last confrontation.
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Good points, MG and OT.
I do agree that loneliness was a part of their lives, and the scene under discussion is suffused with it.
I should probably clarify what I mean by "contentment" in my previous post. It is slightly different from resignation.
Sometimes, we say that people are content to let things go the way they are -- not because they are happy or even resigned. They do this because they fear change. In the context of loneliness, alienation can lead us to a false sense of security, such that we fear any advent of change. Hence, we may feel content in our loneliness not because we are happy or resigned; rather, we are content to leave things as they are because we are afraid to see how or waht can develop if we allowed things to move on.
This is the meaning I want to convey relative to that night before the last confrontation.
Thanks for the clarification, tpe.
I realize this is becoming OT, but: May we see the last trailer scene as Ennis' false sense of security? Does he treat this place the same as he treats the place they camp the night before last confrontation? What, if anything, has changed inside him? And what exactly makes this type of contentment before LC different than that of this lonely trailer? Does Ennis find resignation inside? Or does he still hold onto Earl more than Jack? To put it real lamens-like, by now Earl should be a ghost twice over; I'll bet Jack is just a wee bit more palpable to Ennis. This is indeed where I find his resignation.
I find his ability to give into love is somewhat evident in the closing trailer scenes, and that this may constitute for having overcome such an advent.
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I feel that Ennis may have been content with having Jack's love, but also resigned to the fact that there was nothing he could do about that. (" no reigns on this one") . I also feel that Ennis may have forced Jack into his lonley world and he also became content but hopeful, but he was never resigned to it. Jack always felt that things could some day change.
Ennis feared change, but after the confrontation, and some time had passed, I choose to beleive that Ennis was on the verge of a life changing decision. He broke it off with Cassie and sent the postcard. Perhaps the same card that hung in his closet later next to the shirts as a symbol of what was, but also what would have been. A lesson too late learned. His vow....Jack, I swear.. MO.
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I feel that Ennis may have been content with having Jack's love, but also resigned to the fact that there was nothing he could do about that. (" no reigns on this one") . I also feel that Ennis may have forced Jack into his lonley world and he also became content but hopeful, but he was never resigned to it. Jack always felt that things could some day change.
Ennis feared change, but after the confrontation, and some time had passed, I choose to beleive that Ennis was on the verge of a life changing decision. He broke it off with Cassie and sent the postcard. Perhaps the same card that hung in his closet later next to the shirts as a symbol of what was, but also what would have been. A lesson too late learned. His vow....Jack, I swear.. MO.
I hear that. :c)
This is the order I am also referring to.
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Thanks for the clarification, tpe.
I realize this is becoming OT, but: May we see the last trailer scene as Ennis' false sense of security? Does he treat this place the same as he treats the place they camp the night before last confrontation? What, if anything, has changed inside him? And what exactly makes this type of contentment before LC different than that of this lonely trailer? Does Ennis find resignation inside? Or does he still hold onto Earl more than Jack? To put it real lamens-like, by now Earl should be a ghost twice over; I'll bet Jack is just a wee bit more palpable to Ennis. This is indeed where I find his resignation.
I find his ability to give into love is somewhat evident in the closing trailer scenes, and that this may constitute for having overcome such an advent.
I don't think he really had a sense of security in the final scenes. I think he had within him the seed to try to make things better -- not just for him, but also for his children. It was a timy seed of change -- small, but enough. I think that rweading this in the context of the main topic of this thread, see see that he shed a bit of the pretense that held him back, as far as love was concerned. This indicates that he was leaning more towards Jack rather than to Earl.
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I don't think he really had a sense of security in the final scenes. I think he had within him the seed to try to make things better -- not just for him, but also for his children. It was a timy seed of change -- small, but enough. I think that rweading this in the context of the main topic of this thread, see see that he shed a bit of the pretense that held him back, as far as love was concerned. This indicates that he was leaning more towards Jack rather than to Earl.
Well, I know who's Randall, but who's Earl??? ???
This thread is too long to read everything, can you explain, please!
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Well, I know who's Randall, but who's Earl??? ???
This thread is too long to read everything, can you explain, please!
Earl's the dead guy in the ditch that Ennis and his brother were led down to see at the age of 9.
Here we're sort of balancing the priority between Ennis' image of Earl and that of Jack, who influences him more now. Earl may have given Ennis' heart an empty pocket, and I think Jack fills it for him; it's no longer the money with which Ennis simply gets by, it's the change.
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Earl's the dead guy in the ditch that Ennis and his brother were led down to see at the age of 9.
Here we're sort of balancing the priority between Ennis' image of Earl and that of Jack, who influences him more now. Earl may have given Ennis' heart an empty pocket, and I think Jack fills it for him; it's no longer the money with which Ennis simply gets by, it's the change.
%&) %&) %&)
Sure! But you boys are sometimes too much for my English. Sometimes I have to read your (esspecially yours OT) posts for 3-4 times until put all together in my mind. In fact, when I write in Croatian, I express it in a very similar way like you, but here still have a language barriers problem. :(
:t) :^^)
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%&) %&) %&)
Sure! But you boys are sometimes too much for my English. Sometimes I have to read your (esspecially yours OT) posts for 3-4 times until put all together in my mind. In fact, when I write in Croatian, I express it in a very similar way like you, but here still have a language barriers problem. :(
:t) :^^)
:)
Well it's not a lot of fun being misunderstood, so I think the best part is when one member understands the other. Even if it doesn't happen at first sight. :c)
Ever notice anything peculiar about how Ennis stares and grins at Jack after Jack says he's "liable to get shot every time he sees.."?
"You probably deserve it"
*laughter*
"Tell you what..", Jack says. And the glance Ennis gives him here is the one I'm referring to. Ennis finds relief and probably reassurance on more than one level, in that Jack's been fooling around with a wife and not another man. But also, when he does say "..you probably deserve it.. huh", I imagine his inner self knows this: It would be going against the nature of love if either he or Jack swung the opposite way towards a woman, which would be wrong and of course mean the tire iron -- this being the equivalent of what conscious Ennis knew about queers.
Perhaps Ennis saw his own sudden reflection when Jack admitted his affair with a woman, recognizing it as generic and empty. Hence deserving to get shot. Whether he understood why/how or not I think even Ennis knew, while on the mountain, that every relationship they had was wrong except for theirs.
Of course his conscience and subconscious probably weren't on speaking terms as of yet; to conscious Ennis "You probably deserve it.." can roll off his tongue like a joke, but don't we often make casual jokes or sarcasm about certain (provocative) ideas when they simply need stimulation?
Just some thoughts.
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:)
Well it's not a lot of fun being misunderstood, so I think the best part is when one member understands the other. Even if it doesn't happen at first sight. :c)
Ever notice anything peculiar about how Ennis stares and grins at Jack after Jack says he's "liable to get shot every time he sees.."?
"You probably deserve it"
*laughter*
"Tell you what..", Jack says. And the glance Ennis gives him here is the one I'm referring to. Ennis finds relief and probably reassurance on more than one level, in that Jack's been fooling around with a wife and not another man. But also, when he does say "..you probably deserve it.. huh", I imagine his inner self knows this: It would be going against the nature of love if either he or Jack swung the opposite way towards a woman, which would be wrong and of course mean the tire iron -- this being the equivalent of what conscious Ennis knew about queers.
Perhaps Ennis saw his own sudden reflection when Jack admitted his affair with a woman, recognizing it as generic and empty. Hence deserving to get shot. Whether he understood why/how or not I think even Ennis knew, while on the mountain, that every relationship they had was wrong except for theirs.
Of course his conscience and subconscious probably weren't on speaking terms as of yet; to conscious Ennis "You probably deserve it.." can roll off his tongue like a joke, but don't we often make casual jokes or sarcasm about certain (provocative) ideas when they simply need stimulation?
Just some thoughts.
You know, orangetruck, I still get the sense that Ennis might have guessed that Jack was fooling around with a man... I go back and forth in this one. But in saying "Tell you what...", jack could be trying to justify himself to Ennis.
This interpretation is probably far-fetched, and it might be that he took what Jack said at face value. But I can' help recalling that Ennis did see though Jack's comments about Mexico. I think Ennis was more astute about the (again) "coded" references that Jack gave him about his comings and goings.
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You know, orangetruck, I still get the sense that Ennis might have guessed that Jack was fooling around with a man... I go back and forth in this one. But in saying "Tell you what...", jack could be trying to justify himself to Ennis.
This interpretation is probably far-fetched, and it might be that he took what Jack said at face value. But I can' help recalling that Ennis did see though Jack's comments about Mexico. I think Ennis was more astute about the (again) "coded" references that Jack gave him about his comings and goings.
I tend to agree. And I too think Ennis had suspected. I remember when Jack was in the middle of explaining this thing he had going on, and how for that split second before "..wife" Ennis' stare at Jack reminded me of Joe A's. And as soon as ".. wife" does drop, his eyes start snickering while he endears Jack. But for that instant he was struck by the resemblance -- the one that he associates with intense fear.
This is becoming one of my favorite scenes. The dark campfire atmosphere, the subdued, illuminating flow of water, the joint, the whiskey and (again) those flickering eyes. Ennis' flashbacks of the ditch are all he needs to be reminded of lightning and tire irons. Jack could have put them together but decided to wait until tomorrow to confront Ennis about no longer agreeing to misunderstand the love of his life. By tomorrow he'd be too close to sober to numb the pain of holding it in anyway, I figure. "November" really pulled the plug.
Wasn't it too, that Ennis simply needed to recognize mutual respect for their "secrecy"? He could rebound with this the night before LC. But in LC he cannot stand the same, as Jack turns in and goes for "Mexico".
I think I get the yo-yo's about these scenes too. They seem to reflect like a mirror to the other. There must be a striking pain when Ennis accuses Jack of Mexico. It's like white-out over the night prior; like Ennis not acknowledging their sparse time together; Ennis threatens to conduct electricity himself. This must have sparked the desolate truth that loneliness may eventually hit the mountain too, like snow in November.
Jack always knew how to spread his Brokeback Mountain love thin over all other areas of his life and not necessarily by choice. I think what ultimately knocked Jack down was the cold, black status: nothing, going no where.
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I tend to agree. And I too think Ennis had suspected. I remember when Jack was in the middle of explaining this thing he had going on, and how for that split second before "..wife" Ennis' stare at Jack reminded me of Joe A's. And as soon as ".. wife" does drop, his eyes start snickering while he endears Jack. But for that instant he was struck by the resemblance -- the one that he associates with intense fear.
This is becoming one of my favorite scenes. The dark campfire atmosphere, the subdued, illuminating flow of water, the joint, the whiskey and (again) those flickering eyes. Ennis' flashbacks of the ditch are all he needs to be reminded of lightning and tire irons. Jack could have put them together but decided to wait until tomorrow to confront Ennis about no longer agreeing to misunderstand the love of his life. By tomorrow he'd be too close to sober to numb the pain of holding it in anyway, I figure. "November" really pulled the plug.
Wasn't it too, that Ennis simply needed to recognize mutual respect for their "secrecy"? He could rebound with this the night before LC. But in LC he cannot stand the same, as Jack turns in and goes for "Mexico".
I think I get the yo-yo's about these scenes too. They seem to reflect like a mirror to the other. There must be a striking pain when Ennis accuses Jack of Mexico. It's like white-out over the night prior; like Ennis not acknowledging their sparse time together; Ennis threatens to conduct electricity himself. This must have sparked the desolate truth that loneliness may eventually hit the mountain too, like snow in November.
Yes, I also find that night scene very atmospheric -- and deeply moving. The fact that it ends with Jack's confession shows us how carefully planned the progression of this scene was, IMO. In much of the scene, a lot is hidden in the gloaming, and the firelight casts shadows both literally and figuratively. That it ends with this confession is like introducing a brief shaft of light penetrating the "darkness" -- the darkness of surmises and second-guesses.
And yes, I agree about 'the mutual respect for their "secrecy"'. That Ennis crossed the line when it came to Mexico justified (in Jack's mind) his bringing up the whole subject of their missed opportunity for a sweet life together.
Jack always knew how to spread his Brokeback Mountain love thin over all other areas of his life and not necessarily by choice. I think what ultimately knocked Jack down was the cold, black status: nothing, going no where.
Exactly.
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:clap: :clap: :clap:
Great posts boys!
:^^)
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I don’t know if this had been discussed already, so sorry if it had. I also don’t know where to post this, so feel free to move it to the right thread. Thank you!!
I was thinking about some lines I read yesterday in the copy of the screenplay I have, and then I realized that Ennis and Jack didn’t have that good communication I thought they had. They sure were the best friends ever, but when it came to their love and their relationship they kept to themselves almost everything. I sure understand better now those lines from the SS: “Like vast clouds of steam from thermal springs in winter the years of things unsaid and now unsayable—admissions, declarations, shames, guilts, fears—rose around them.”
Yeah, things unsaid. And I wonder how many things of their lives they hided from each other. I’m not talking about México, Randall or all the tears shed from Jack’s part, and neither about Ennis puking in the alley or about the things he had to give up to be with Jack. I’m talking about “normal” things.
See, Jack and Randall met in 1978 and according to the scrip, Ennis and Cassie met that very same year too….but it’s not until 1981 that Ennis and Jack talked about it!!! How come? I mean, 4 damn years!!!! It’s at least 8 or more fishing trips, and 7 or 10 days in every trip….so in all that time didn’t they talk about that? I mean, come on, I just can’t believe that in four years Jack didn’t ask Ennis if he was getting laid (men talk about that kind of things, right?), or if he was seeing someone, or if he didn’t feel alone….Jack sure wanted to know those things, because he loved Ennis, and he could have asked those questions out of concern (Ennis being so lonely) or out of jealousy, or even to know where they did stand….Or just because they were FRIENDS, and friends talk about this kind of things, especially when they see each other so little and have so much to catch up.
So it’s really weird that Jack didn’t ask something about Ennis sexual or emotional life, at least it's weird for me. If he did it, Ennis lied or just simply skipped the part about Cassie, because till 1981 Jack didn’t know that she existed. It’s so Ennis that he didn’t talk or didn’t want to talk about Cassie, but I just can’t see him lying to Jack and saying that he was alone, because he said the truth when Jack asked him in 1981. But it’s also weird that he didn’t talk to his friend about the new girl he met and how she made him dance and stuff. Ennis dancing!! <^( <^( That sure would have made Jack laugh, right?
And the other way around surprises me too. Jack was the chatty type, so it strikes me as weird that he didn’t talk about his affair. Oh well, he sure had enough reasons to keep quiet about it, he didn’t want Ennis to freak out, or to think that he was with guys…But didn’t Ennis ask about it at least once in all that time? He was the one who asked in 1978 if Jack was ok with Lureen or if Lureen suspected something about them….and then, in 1981, it was him again who asked Jack how he was doing it with Lureen and the marriage. So in four years didn’t he ask Jack how he was with Lureen? Or maybe he did, and Jack lied, or just simply didn’t talk about the foreman’s wife.
I don’t know…..but it made me see their relationship in a very different way. They never talked about their feelings for each other, I knew that, but, as I see now, they didn’t even talk much about their families or their relationships with other people beyond that. I think that maybe they never talked about the sexual encounters they had outside their relationship and their marriages, and from my personal POV I think that’s right because they loved each other and talk about having sex with other people sure must hurt them, A LOT, but still it leaves me stunned that they didn’t talk about Jack’s marriage or about Ennis loneliness in four years. WOW, four years…
I’m dying to know your opinion about this. Thank you!!. ^f^
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Hi, Tammy - you really brought up an issue there, and there may be no real answer, but will try to rummage around:
- Part of their not talking about much may have been because of the habits of the West. "Real" men didn't say much. About anything. That may have been part of the rodeo clown scene - Jack was too ready to talk. AP would have noted this regional characteristic.
- Both men seemed to keep their relationship, their love, completely separate from the Real World they had to live in. Maybe it was so sacred, their time together, that bringing in that real world would have broken the enchantment of Brokeback Mountain, a separate world.
- They probably assumed each had their private lives and kept from prying. Remember, Jack said: "You and Alma, that's a life?", and Ennis shuts him down by saying: "Now, you leave Alma out of this...". That early, then, a wall going up over discussing others.
- This is a reach. A big one. But if you have romanticized someone in your mind, as Ennis and Jack did with each other, then each detail of their life that you weren't a part of, would be a theft, a hurt. It would hurt to be thinking of your loved one's normal life, so far away.
None of this gives a full explanation. These would only be factors in play, maybe. My best guess is, they didn't ask, because they were afraid of what they might find out. That the other had a functioning life, without them. Which was a mistake, because, that wasn't really true.
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Well BT,
I see it this way and I might be wrong.
They talked about their marriages during years. Mostly Jack, but they both mentioned their spouse few times. Other than their marriage relationships... Well, Jack was talkative, but surely wasn't stupid to start some chitchat about relationships cos he had so much to hide. Ennis on the other hand suspected that Jack had affairs, but he was afraid to speak up. He was afraid to hear the worst answer of all - that Jack belonged to others too!
And Cassie - I don't think that she was important to Ennis enough to speak about her. They were together for 3 years and Ennis hadn't got a slightest idea of marring her?! He mentioned her only because Jack asked directly.
So many things remain unsaid betwee two of them, and that surely hurts. :\'(
Why so many things went out the night before and during FC? Well, obviously the time was ripe, as Jack was maybe even provoking Ennis wanting to get somewhere, to move their relationship from the point zero! Who knows why just then? Because AP wanted it that way?
But, I don't find it so strange. They were always avoiding anything that could lead to some declarations or confessions. And each had his own reason - Ennis, afraid of love, afraid of being queer, afraid of hearing Jack's confession. Jack -afraid of press Ennis too much, of loosing him, of speak up about his infidelity....
Uh, one way or the other I cry at last! :\'(
For me it's also strange that Ennis' brother and sister never came up -not even during his matrimony. Ennis was so cut off everything, so alone, so suffering that really hurts. And deep inside, always on his mind was only Jack!
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I agree with Tony and Loreen. I feel Jack did'nt really want to burden Ennis with tales of his home life, and Ennis certainly did'nt either. That had been settled imo. His response to Jack's "You and Alma, that's a life? did not include a denial that his life was crap, only that he would accept the fact that Alma did'nt asked to be in the middle of this thing. I think he felt responsible and guilty about it. He had what he had, but what he wanted was sitting in front of him in jeans and a beer.
I also agree very much with Loreen, they talked,...a little, but it was delicate, neither one was gonna volunteer any information without being asked. They knew all they wanted or needed to know in those short conversations about home. Don't feel they were particularly comfortable talking about it either. They kept that part of their lives seperate from their affair. It was all about them when they were alone together. Besides, what purpose would it serve for Jack to bring up Randall?, or Ennis to bring up Cassie?, when they are fighting the world to be together? The less people involved when they spent precious time together , the better. Anyone else who got drawn in between these two,was a necessary part of the secret, seperate lives they lived.
And I totally agree that they were afraid to ask questions/and or talk about others in their lives as it relates to them, in fear of the answers/ revelations or denials that may come out . Afraid of what they might hear, not knowing if they could live with it.. Ennis was'nt living Jack's life , and in a sense had no idea how bad it got for Jack, still stuck in an empty , loveless marriage( could be bought off, that's how bad) ,ignored and treated like a pest, yet having to pretend a life on a daily basis with his Texas family. Must have seemed to him that he was running backwards in time when time itself was of the essence. And Ennis, though more used to the lonliness "wrung it out" many times, just thinking about Jack.
Just the thought of hearing out loud ,one or the other being potentially tempted away by someone else after so much had been sacrificed for so long was a threat/ personal insult imo to the trusted bond they had. They did what they had to do. To a certain extent they had to assume alot, but I just can't see Ennis sitting up there talkin about "I'm gonna marry Cassie" straight faced to Jack, after all those years. %( He had to have learned something.To drag another woman into this thing with Jack? Nah, He'd been there, done that , was'nt gonna do it again. That would be too heartless for a man who had one so loving, needful, and possessive of Jack Twist. He loved Jack too much to do that. I feel after Cassie, that was it for Ennis. He and Jack's was gonna be the only relationship he focused on.MHO.Thanx
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Oh WOW!! Thank you, friends. I love your replies. Very good posts!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I only want to explain better my question, because I think I didn’t express myself well. I’m not asking why Ennis didn’t say to Jack that he was with Cassie, or why Jack didn’t talk about Randall (I didn’t even mention Randall once because I think I’m not that stupid and I know why Jack couldn’t talk about it…it’s obvious). I know that they couldn’t talk about their relationships with other people and I think I maybe know the reasons, but I was just trying to know why they didn’t ask, not why they didn’t talk about their personal affairs. I said that “it’s so Ennis that he didn’t talk or didn’t want to talk about Cassie” and that Jack had lots of reasons to keep quiet about his affairs. But when Jack asked Ennis if in all that time he didn’t find anyone to marry, it sounded like a thing Jack really wanted to know, as I said, out of jealousy, out of concern, or just to know where Jack stood in Ennis life. And Ennis already had asked Jack twice about his marriage. So maybe they used to ask each other about their lives outside their relationship, because they were friends, and because they cared about each other so sure they wanted to know how they were doing in their lives. I just wanted to know if talking about their families was a common thing or not. The truth is we don’t have any scene with them together in those four years so we don’t know what they talked about in those fishing trips. But it still seems to me kind of weird that in four years they talked only about…what? I mean, they sure talked about their lives and asked each other about their lives, and their lives included family, right? And if Jack, for example, asked Ennis how he was doing, well, Ennis maybe talked about his jobs, his girls….and then he could have kept quiet about Cassie, I know, to not hurt Jack, but he didn’t seem to have problems talking about it the night before the last confrontation. You all said that they didn’t talk about it, didn’t want to talk about it, unless one of them asked, and I agree, but that’s precisely what I was asking about. I mean, Jack asked that last night, and Ennis replied without thinking twice, and what I was trying to know was why they didn’t ask before…..Oooch, don’t hit me, I know that you all already gave me replies to that, and I AGREE with every one of them. I was just trying to explain better than I did before that I’m not trying to know why they didn’t talk about Cassie or the “foreman’s wife”, but why Jack never asked Ennis before how he was doing all alone, or why it took Ennis 4 years between the first time he asked Jack about Lureen and his marriage, and the second time he did it.
Having said that (and hoping I’ve not said the contrary again….**sigh** I hate my English) I want to comment on your wonderful replies.
- This is a reach. A big one. But if you have romanticized someone in your mind, as Ennis and Jack did with each other, then each detail of their life that you weren't a part of, would be a theft, a hurt. It would hurt to be thinking of your loved one's normal life, so far away.
None of this gives a full explanation. These would only be factors in play, maybe. My best guess is, they didn't ask, because they were afraid of what they might find out. That the other had a functioning life, without them. Which was a mistake, because, that wasn't really true.
Thank you so much, Tony, for your post.
I don’t think they didn’t talk about their marriage because of the West Code. Ennis was the silent type, but Jack could speak a blue streak. Besides, as you said, that could mean trouble in a bar or with unknown people, like Jimbo, but up in the mountains they were alone, and they were friends, so I’m sure they talked about a million of things. AP said that they talked a lot, about everything, and they “were respectful of each other’s opinions”. And, like I asked above, they talked in those fishing trips about what? Sure about everything and anything. And I really think that they talked about their family life too, Ennis asking about Lureen, and Jack talking about her and taxes and stuff.
I think that maybe Ennis could ask Jack about Lureen, or later the night before the LC he could talk about Cassie, because Ennis saw himself as a straight man, so talking about women was normal for him; Jack being with the foreman’s wife was normal for him and even made him smile, because Jack was not queer either, right? And Jack asking Ennis if he didn’t find another woman to marry was normal for Ennis too, because Jack knew that Ennis was not queer, right? So it’d be normal if Ennis was with a new woman….right? ::) I’m trying to say that I TOTALLY agree with you, Loreen and AF when you all said that they didn’t talk about that kind of things because it hurt them so much (I even said myself that very same thing in my first post, almost at the end), but at least Ennis didn’t seem to have problems talking about women….He only felt hurt and shattered when he found out about Mexico, and then about the man Jack was gonna bring to LF. Maybe for Ennis it was normal if they were with women, but not with men: 1. because for Ennis they, or at least he, were not queer; or 2. because being with women was necessary in order to survive in that society, because they needed a cover, but being with another man was cheating, was breaking the sacred bound they had.
I just don’t know, that’s why I am here reading what you have to say.
But Tony, I agree with every word you wrote in the part I quoted. :^^)
Loreen, I agree with you too, especially with the part I quoted here, because you were wondering the same as me, why after 4 years of nothing they asked about those things, they talked about it precisely the night before the last confrontation.
Why so many things went out the night before and during FC? Well, obviously the time was ripe, as Jack was maybe even provoking Ennis wanting to get somewhere, to move their relationship from the point zero! Who knows why just then? Because AP wanted it that way?
But, I don't find it so strange. They were always avoiding anything that could lead to some declarations or confessions. And each had his own reason - Ennis, afraid of love, afraid of being queer, afraid of hearing Jack's confession. Jack -afraid of press Ennis too much, of loosing him, of speak up about his infidelity....
Thank you for your post. Those are my thoughts too. ^f^
AF, I love your post, and I quote every word. Awesome!! (:) (:)
But I want to make clear that I didn’t expect, and I didn’t want, and sure I’d not understood it if Ennis had said “"I'm gonna marry Cassie", and above all, I was not asking about why he didn’t said that. My question was the other way around: Why they didn’t ask, not why they didn’t tell. But you all already answered my question with brilliant posts I thank so much, and your opinions are the same as mine. It’s a great pleasure to learn new things with your help. :^^)
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It’s a great pleasure to learn new things with your help. :^^)
Asking the right questions which lead us to the right answers is also very illuminating, BT! Thank you too! :^^)
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It's also possible, this was all a technical problem for the writer. AP wanted certain things to come out at certain times, for forward motion in the story. That meant she had to avoid the very questions Tammy raised, as answering them, or developing them, would have taken away from her keeping this a short story, and would also have undermined the sudden revelations she wanted. Technical issues, then, could have left gaps that didn't make sense, and we can want those answers, but they are in a blurred area she avoided, to make things work. Might be not much more than that, but AP wasn't, perhaps, expecting Brokies to appear, wanting more answers and more detail. Just a thought.
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That makes lot of sense too, Tony.....
Maybe we can't just explain everything. Maybe she did all these things on purpose to get Ennis and Jack and us surprised and stunned, like she did with the shirts or the postcard returned or when OMT said that Jack was planning to bring another man....
She was trying to pack a punch in the story, right?
Thank you, friend. I think you can be right. :^^)
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Asking the right questions which lead us to the right answers is also very illuminating, BT! Thank you too! :^^)
Thank you, baby. :^^)
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Oh but, Tony, I just realized that AP never wrote when Jack met Randall (well, in the SS there isn’t a man called Randall….) and when Ennis met Cassie. Ennis only talked about her in their last trip and didn’t say how much time he was seeing her, so maybe Ennis just knew her for a while then, only months, so he couldn’t talk to Jack about it before that fishing trip. And Jack, in the SS, didn’t even ask Ennis about it, or about why Ennis didn’t find someone to marry. Ennis said it all because he wanted, because it seems that they talked about those things, or at least if the people they were having sex with were women and not men.
We don’t know anything about the man Jack wanted to bring to LF till OMT talks about it, so we don’t know either when Jack met him.
But Diana and Larry created Randall and Cassie and they wrote down dates for the exact moment they met Jack and Ennis, and maybe it’s where the problem and confusion come from. I mean, I didn’t wonder about if Jack and Ennis talked about it in the SS because we don’t have dates there, so maybe we can assume that they talked about that as soon as they met. But Diana and Larry said to us when Ennis and Jack met Cassie and Randall, but they didn’t wrote a scene with a fishing trip to put it between those scenes where our boys met C and R, and the last confrontation, but still they used the same dialogue Annie wrote for her story, for their last fishing trip, making Ennis and Jack talk about Cassie and Randall four years later, while maybe in the SS it was only a few months (I don't know....). That’s why it seemed weird to me, but now I understand. That scene, I mean, that exchange between our boys make more sense in the SS because we don't know the exact dates Ennis and Jack met Cassie and Randall. It’s only a little issue with the SS and its adaptation to the script. . …
What do you think about it, Tony? Loreen? AF? ^f^
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Dear Tammy - I think you are on to something, because some things don't seem to make sense. Might be AP's technical problems, and now, as you have pointed out, the adaptation of SS to screenplay. IMO, it is relevant to this thread, so I hope the moderators allow a lot of room. I'd also want to know what Jackster's take on this is, as he is highly tuned into both versions. One problem is, Tammy, you have discovered a very complicated gap, and organizing the details is challenging. Yet it is relevant and the posts from Loreen and Aintfoolin showed that.
But, what are the inconsistencies, is one issue, and making something sensible of them is another. 2 different categories to look over. I'll try to re-read what everybody wrote and see if I can be of any use, but it'll take some thinking and that may not end up with anything worth posting.
Meanwhile, am not comfortable with a single-shot answer as to why they wait so long to ask questions of each other like the topic of this thread. There's more going on, and, more and more, Tammy, I think you have asked the right questions in an area that IMO, has been resistant to exploration and just goes to show, we've STILL got more to dig up and explore.
Finally, I've been on several forums, and this one tends to be non-aggressive, supportive, and overtly loving of our boys, but despite that somewhat sentimental appearance, the real work gets done....here. The insights and new approaches, to be found in these threads, on this forum, are IMO the best work ever done on BBM. We just do it.....when we're in a mood to do it. Maybe we can do some more here, with what seems a tangled mess. But we're E/J Brokies and that means, maybe we will, maybe we won't, on this one.
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Baby Tammy,
It's very interesting, and very complicated though I aint too keen on some of the exact timelines involved in this. ( Especially now when I 'm polishing off the last of the the Holiday rum and eggnog) ;)...but anyway I suppose that maybe they did talk about the *normal* everyday stuff in their lives. ...general stuff like Work, kids, childhood experiences,parents, inlaws etc etc. stuff like that. But I feel there was a line drawn at the personal stuff until the LC. Although they were very good at reading each other, I feel they felt the personal stuff , Cassie, or Randall remained just that , deeply personal. Those topics were for the most part were reserved because they were directly or indirectly related to the "secrets" they were keeping for reasons all their own.They were part of the burden, part of the lie.
Jack was aware of Ennis's lonliness certainly, but he was also aware of Ennis's paranoia and possessiveness towards him. He could read into that, that Ennis did'nt have some little black book full of women's phone numbers at his disposal. Ennis's loyalty had already been tested, staying in a marriage to the bitter end with Alma with Jack himself the recipient of that rejection until Alma divorced him. And if Ennis knew that Cassie had fallen in love with him by the conversation in "81" , he did'nt let on to it to Jack. Ennis just made it seem like some casual affair with a waitress. Obviously Cassie could'nt find Ennis, because Ennis did'nt really wanna be found. Jack would have thought of Cassie as much more of a threat had he known that Cassie was not only in love with Ennis, but had alluded to marriage. Niether was Jack going to expose an affair with Randall , (imo an even more direct threat to Ennis being another man) while he still had hope of a life with Ennis.
It's hard to know why they did'nt discuss these things as they both could communicate with mere silence, but we can fill in the blanks about fishing trips that we were'nt privy to based on what we do know about them as human beings. We can only look at their relationship as outsiders looking in. We can only try and read between the lines and speculate as to the why's and why nots. The only thing clear is that they kept alot hidden inside to protect themselves and each other from hurt and harm while maintaining some semblence of dignity for two men in love in the face of a closed-minded, hostile ,society. My take. Thanx.
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Baby Tammy,
It's very interesting, and very complicated though I aint too keen on some of the exact timelines involved in this. ( Especially now when I 'm polishing off the last of the the Holiday rum and eggnog) ;)...but anyway I suppose that maybe they did talk about the *normal* everyday stuff in their lives. ...general stuff like Work, kids, childhood experiences,parents, inlaws etc etc. stuff like that. But I feel there was a line drawn at the personal stuff until the LC. Although they were very good at reading each other, I feel they felt the personal stuff , Cassie, or Randall remained just that , deeply personal. Those topics were for the most part were reserved because they were directly or indirectly related to the "secrets" they were keeping for reasons all their own.They were part of the burden, part of the lie.
Jack was aware of Ennis's lonliness certainly, but he was also aware of Ennis's paranoia and possessiveness towards him. He could read into that, that Ennis did'nt have some little black book full of women's phone numbers at his disposal. Ennis's loyalty had already been tested, staying in a marriage to the bitter end with Alma with Jack himself the recipient of that rejection until Alma divorced him. And if Ennis knew that Cassie had fallen in love with him by the conversation in "81" , he did'nt let on to it to Jack. Ennis just made it seem like some casual affair with a waitress. Obviously Cassie could'nt find Ennis, because Ennis did'nt really wanna be found. Jack would have thought of Cassie as much more of a threat had he known that Cassie was not only in love with Ennis, but had alluded to marriage. Niether was Jack going to expose an affair with Randall , (imo an even more direct threat to Ennis being another man) while he still had hope of a life with Ennis.
It's hard to know why they did'nt discuss these things as they both could communicate with mere silence, but we can fill in the blanks about fishing trips that we were'nt privy to based on what we do know about them as human beings. We can only look at their relationship as outsiders looking in. We can only try and read between the lines and speculate as to the why's and why nots. The only thing clear is that they kept alot hidden inside to protect themselves and each other from hurt and harm while maintaining some semblence of dignity for two men in love in the face of a closed-minded, hostile ,society. My take. Thanx.
I would just like to add that once the story is written , the words are open for interpretation by the individual reader. AP wrote this wonderful SS, The screen writers and Ang did a wonderful job embellishing it and bringing their vision to film. Then there are those here on EnnisJack.com who interpret both ,adding our own personal life experiences to the story creating a rich diverse variety of perspective. It's why after 4 yrs. we are still discovering the depth of these characters ..Ennis and Jack.. We see so much of ourselves in these very human cowboys.
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Thank you so much for your post AF. ^f^ One more time I agree. I know what you mean about them trying to protect each other from hurt. And, like I said before, I especially understand Jack’s reasons to not talk about it.
But after reading the SS again yesterday and realizing the differences between it and the script, I think that maybe they had not any problems talking about women, yes, only women.
I said this when I was commenting on Tony’s post before: Ennis saw himself as a straight man, so for him it was normal talking about Cassie or another woman. And he thought that Jack also knew that he, Ennis, was straight, so if Jack asked him about women or a new marriage Ennis could see it as a normal thing too. And well, Jack said once, long time ago, that he was not queer, so, though Ennis later used that “boys like you”, maybe he was trying to believe that Jack was straight too, so if he was having a rough time with Lureen, Ennis could see as a normal thing that Jack was having an affair with another woman. Insist, only and always women. I think some brokies discussed this in another thread too. Ennis and Jack seemed to not have problems talking about women, but talking about men was a very different thing. Having an affair with a man meant that they were queer and what is worse, that was betrayal, that was cheating, and breaking that special bound they had. Ennis could try to fool himself thinking that they could be with women because they were straight and what they had was only a one shot thing, a lifetime thing only between the two of them; but also the truth is that they could be with women, and talk about that without having issues, because they needed women and even marriage as a cover, in order to survive in that narrow minded society.
In fact Ennis lost it when he learned about Mexico, but finding out about the foreman’s wife didn’t seem to bother him much. Of course they suffered hearing about Cassie and that foreman’s wife, but maybe Ennis thought that it was “normal” and necessary, and it was not betrayal, because they were women not men. I think, and this is only my opinion, that Ennis maybe didn’t feel threatened if Jack was with another woman. But if Jack was with another man, that really was a problem. Ennis thought he was the only man for Jack, like Jack was the only man for him. That’s why learning about Mexico cut him that deep.
On the other side we have Jack. After the reunion in 1967 he really thought that the huge problem Ennis and Jack had was Alma and Ennis family. That’s why he flew to Riverton in 1975 when Ennis got divorced. He thought that now they could live together, because Ennis had not the old responsibilities. But he found out that the real problem was Ennis, his fears, his paranoia. He realized that women were not the problem; it was Ennis inability to overcome his fears and his own homophobia. And after one more try, in a later fishing trip when Jack suggested Ennis to move to Texas, Jack finally realized that Ennis was not gonna live with him, not then, not ever. In their last fishing trip I think Jack gave up on his dreams, not on Ennis and certainly not on their relationship, but he knew for sure that living with Ennis was not an real option. So it didn’t matter if Ennis was with Cassie or not….With women or alone, Ennis was not ready for a shared life with a….man. Of course knowing about Cassie must hurt Jack, because he loved Ennis (you only have to see his expression in that moment…He’s bleeding inside), but, I think that, like Ennis, he felt safer knowing that it was still a woman, Cassie. But if Ennis liked another man, well, that would have killed Jack.
Still, we are wondering here, in this thread, why Jack asked Ennis if he didn’t find anyone to marry. I said that maybe he asked out of concern, because Ennis was alone, or out of jealousy, because he wanted Ennis for himself, he wanted a life with him, or just because he needed to know how Ennis saw their relationship, what he was planning to do with his life, because what Ennis did with his life affected Jack’s life too.
We know that Ennis asked Jack twice about Lureen, and Jack had not problem to say that they could do it over the phone, I mean, he replied Ennis by talking about sex with Lureen. So maybe it was normal for them ask and talk about their marriages and about women. When they met after those four years of separation they both had wives. So they both knew that the other one was living and sleeping with somebody else. So after several years, it couldn’t be so difficult to ask about those women, because Ennis and Jack already know that they shared their beds with other people. And in that era, in that part of USA, and having in mind that Ennis wanted to see them both as straight men, well, maybe it was normal for two friends to talk about their women. What it was really weird and inconceivable was talking about their feelings, Ennis and Jack feelings toward each other, because men don’t love men, right? That’s impossible…. :-\\ :-\\ :-\\
So maybe talking about women was normal and right, talking about men was forbidden, talking about their feelings for each other a crime; and those are the things they kept unsaid for years, like AP said.
I don’t know what I was trying to say with this…..Sorry, I get so lost when I think in Spanish and write in English. ;D ;D But I agree with your post, AF, and I like how you think. I think I’m just thinking out loud and rambling here, that’s all. ;)
Tony, I’m very very very interested in reading what you think about all of this. Your ideas are always amazing!!! And I like the way you’re approaching this. Thank you!! :^^)
And about this forum, I so agree with you and I’ll be never tired of saying either. We find answers, always, but we respect each other and above all we love Ennis and Jack. <^( <^( <^(
I wish more brokies were here to express their opinions. I bet they’d kick my ass for being this stubborn about my questions. ::) ::) Loreen, AF and you already opened my eyes a lot. You know what? I’m dying to read what Thomas has to say when he comes back on Monday.
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I would just like to add that once the story is written , the words are open for interpretation by the individual reader. AP wrote this wonderful SS, The screen writers and Ang did a wonderful job embellishing it and bringing their vision to film. Then there are those here on EnnisJack.com who interpret both ,adding our own personal life experiences to the story creating a rich diverse variety of perspective. It's why after 4 yrs. we are still discovering the depth of these characters ..Ennis and Jack.. We see so much of ourselves in these very human cowboys.
It's hard to know why they did'nt discuss these things as they both could communicate with mere silence, but we can fill in the blanks about fishing trips that we were'nt privy to based on what we do know about them as human beings. We can only look at their relationship as outsiders looking in. We can only try and read between the lines and speculate as to the why's and why nots. The only thing clear is that they kept alot hidden inside to protect themselves and each other from hurt and harm while maintaining some semblence of dignity for two men in love in the face of a closed-minded, hostile ,society. My take. Thanx.
I believe that this part explains all about this matter -
1. BBM strikes us so badly for many reasons, but one of the most important IMO are the things unsaid. So many feelings, so many devotion between them, love, lust, sacrifice.... but never any proper word to express that. That's a killer for me, and I suppose for others too. Surely the things they always avoided to talk about are their relationships with other people, especially men, for that topic would open a lot of other things, other wounds and confessions that none of them had wanted to pull out.
2. Each one of us sees and feels this story in different way. There are some crucial points on which different people have a complete different point of view. Even so, we all agree on the perfection of this love story and on the strong impact it had on us.
The difference in the time gap (a few months or 3 years) IMO has no big importance in the story, cos the explanation could be applied in both cases. And the explanation has already being given in the terms of their everlasting silence about love and relationship - whether their mutual, or with other people. And the silence has killed Jack, and is still killing Ennis in his shaky trailer. :\'(
The only question that remains unsolved here is why they had to talk about Cassie, Randall, Mexico, infidelity... and all the ugly stuff, just before the last departure! I believe that AP put it here on purpose - to make this story the champion of sadness, the champion of shattering readers, the champion of playing our feelings. Because after FC a lot of things got open, but none closed - Jack's infidelity is exposed and it even gets worse when he talks about Randall in LF, and we don't know what would be the outcome of his innuendo. Was he really determined to finish with Ennis? Or it was only a stupid story to be presented to John Twist (as I firmly believe)
Ennis is devastated, but still wants to go on with their trips, and we expect that maybe he will change, we want to know how he would deal with Jack's affairs in the future (if any), he even left Cassie... So many things are suddenly here to be solved and to give us an enormous hope for the best solution of all.
Instead of getting the closure, we get the worst possible outcome of all - our dear Jack is dead. Over! No more! Did Ennis want to tell him something? Would it be any possibility for their sweet sweet life? We just don't know, and we are as devastated as Ennis.
If there hadn't been their talk about C&R as an overture to FC, AP couldn't never manage to create so deep anxiety, so deep sorrow and pain in us. And that is the only I see.
How long time has been since their affairs had started ( months or years) has no importance at all. IMO
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WOW guys!!! You blow me away! I think we are all saying the same things but in different ways. I wish I was good at expressing what I feel for this wonderful experience of BBM. Thanks for your amazing thoughts! <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( <^( :c) :c) :c) :c) :c) :c) :c) :c) :c)
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Your so right Atalley,
It's so amazing that the more we search these two characters, the more we find of ourselves searching for more.. Baby Tammy #) has sparked the passions for answers to some amazing questions here! My first post on this thread , I stated that I did'nt have a clue as to why Jack would ask this question of Ennis. Due to the many wonderful posts through out the thread, that is no longer the case. I am enlighted.
There was something about Jack's eyes that night, his demeanor, distant and intropective from the moment when he said " it's gonna snow tonight for sure" . We could blame it on the weed and the liquor, but I get the feeling from him that he has been thinking long and hard about his standing with Ennis for a long time. He had a lot constantly on his plate , alot to think about between those trips As if he's been trying to put his life. his relationships in perspective for perhaps months. I don't think the reasons that prompted the question or his confession" sometimes I miss you so much" came to him overnight , or spur of the moment.
His eyes when Ennis asked about his marriage with Lureen spoke volumes about the way he felt about it. Imo " doing it over the phone" was not just about the sex, but about the marriage as a whole. Any emotional investment, or romantic notions in it were long gone imo. Lureen was in one place at that time in the marriage and he was at another totally different place. Priorities had changed, seperate goals and agendas came into place. And I feel he was ready finally to live for himself, wether that meant with Ennis or without Ennis, Randall or Lureen.
He loved Ennis, had dedicated his life to being with him when he could and now older and more experienced in life and love perhaps he's looking back on this rollercoaster ride he;s been on for almost 20 yrs and was at the point of figuring what he could or could not fix, and what he could or could not stand. At some point during this time the notion came up that he may have to find a way to quit Ennis. To accept a dying dream. To concieve of the inconcievable , to loathe the very thought of even trying to give this up. yet he tried to find the answer How? I don't cry easily, :\'( but this breaks my heart every time. And all for what?
What I loved most about him was that he never gave up on his love for Ennis, never stopped searching , never stopped loving. god, the way way he grabbed Ennis when Ennis pushed him away, and "damn you Ennis" Powerful stuff.... Ennis had his reasons, but even he had to appreciate the passionate fight Jack put up for it in the confrontation. Maybe he felt he had nothing left to lose and though he had his own fears, *the unsayable* was finally said . :(
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Although a bit late, here is my take on this.
I think that both of them didn't talk about certain things because both of them felt that this was the best thing to do to keep the relationship intact. This is especially true in Jack's case, where he understood Ennis all too well. But Ennis not mentioning Cassie may also be attributed to one simple fact: that Ennis didn't think too much of it and didn't consider it worth mentioning, perhaps. Is this a bit too harsh or off the mark?
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He loved Ennis, had dedicated his life to being with him when he could and now older and more experienced in life and love perhaps he's looking back on this rollercoaster ride he;s been on for almost 20 yrs and was at the point of figuring what he could or could not fix, and what he could or could not stand. At some point during this time the notion came up that he may have to find a way to quit Ennis. To accept a dying dream. To concieve of the inconcievable , to loathe the very thought of even trying to give this up. yet he tried to find the answer How? I don't cry easily, :\'( but this breaks my heart every time. And all for what?
What I loved most about him was that he never gave up on his love for Ennis, never stopped searching , never stopped loving. god, the way way he grabbed Ennis when Ennis pushed him away, and "damn you Ennis" Powerful stuff.... Ennis had his reasons, but even he had to appreciate the passionate fight Jack put up for it in the confrontation. Maybe he felt he had nothing left to lose and though he had his own fears, *the unsayable* was finally said . :(
I don't know why or maybe I do, but this post has made me cry hard.
Every time I watch Jack's expression in that scene, so tired, lost and bitter....old and desperate, I cry my eyes out. Never thought that a human being could love THAT much. :\'( :\'( :\'(
Beautiful post, AF. Thank you.
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Although a bit late, here is my take on this.
I think that both of them didn't talk about certain things because both of them felt that this was the best thing to do to keep the relationship intact. This is especially true in Jack's case, where he understood Ennis all too well. But Ennis not mentioning Cassie may also be attributed to one simple fact: that Ennis didn't think too much of it and didn't consider it worth mentioning, perhaps. Is this a bit too harsh or off the mark?
This about Cassie is my opinion too! It's not harsh, I believe it was just the way Ennis saw their relationship! Nothing important! Even it won't be surprising if Jack was hurt a bit after knowing about her!
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This about Cassie is my opinion too! It's not harsh, I believe it was just the way Ennis saw their relationship! Nothing important! Even it won't be surprising if Jack was hurt a bit after knowing about her!
It certainly makes Ennis look unintentionally cruel, but even during the scene in question, Ennis refers to Cassie dismissively -- not even bothering to mention her name of Jack!
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It certainly makes Ennis look unintentionally cruel, but even during the scene in question, Ennis refers to Cassie dismissively -- not even bothering to mention her name of Jack!
Ennis looked cruel to almost everyone who loved him - firstly Jack, then Alma, Cassie... even girls! Even it was unintentionally, he paid a huge price for that! :(
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Ennis looked cruel to almost everyone who loved him - firstly Jack, then Alma, Cassie... even girls! Even it was unintentionally, he paid a huge price for that! :(
Ennis tried to equivocate too much, as with the marriage question or the Sweet Life. One can think of it as a fear of commitment, but we know that it goes much deeper than that. The irony of it all is that Ennis felt he was doing Cassie and Jack a favor by not giving in.
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Ennis tried to equivocate too much, as with the marriage question or the Sweet Life. One can think of it as a fear of commitment, but we know that it goes much deeper than that. The irony of it all is that Ennis felt he was doing Cassie and Jack a favor by not giving in.
This could likely be true! With Cassie it was obvious with their last scene when he says something like: " I wasn't much of a fun anyway."
On the other hand I believe that all people around him (Jack, Alma, Cassie and girls) loved him very much as Ennis had a deep, loving and beautiful soul. I believe that all of them felt his goodnees and kindness, and that was he reason why he captivated their feelings. The distance he built with others and his reluctance to give in, made him even more attractive I suppose!
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This could likely be true! With Cassie it was obvious with their last scene when he says something like: " I wasn't much of a fun anyway."
On the other hand I believe that all people around him (Jack, Alma, Cassie and girls) loved him very much as Ennis had a deep, loving and beautiful soul. I believe that all of them felt his goodnees and kindness, and that was he reason why he captivated their feelings. The distance he built with others and his reluctance to give in, made him even more attractive I suppose!
Baby, Alma and Cassie suffered pretty much with Ennis distance and his reluctance to give in, but still I don't know if that made Ennis more attractive. But I sure can tell you that it didn't make him more attractive for Jack. It was what hurt Jack the most, and what Jack didn't like about Ennis. Jack loved everything about his man, but that distance Ennis put between them and his inability to give in was what made Jack think about quitting Ennis. Only my opinion, but what do you think?
Oh, BTW, I have a little thing for you. Sending it by mail like NOW!! ;)
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Baby, Alma and Cassie suffered pretty much with Ennis distance and his reluctance to give in, but still I don't know if that made Ennis more attractive. But I sure can tell you that it didn't make him more attractive for Jack. It was what hurt Jack the most, and what Jack didn't like about Ennis. Jack loved everything about his man, but that distance Ennis put between them and his inability to give in was what made Jack think about quitting Ennis. Only my opinion, but what do you think?
Oh, BTW, I have a little thing for you. Sending it by mail like NOW!! ;)
You know, Jake G. once said that Jack was so eager to make Ennis give in, but never succeeded completely. Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more. I'm no saying that it is 100% truth, but it is just that if we see 2 little boxes -one open and one closed - we would always choose the closed one. I assume you'd too! Because it is more interesting, more intriguing... That was the case with Ennis.
Of course that 20 years of unsuccessful attempts to make Ennis fears melt, to open Ennis' shell, Jack became bitter! :( Ennis turned up to be too stubborn and too closed even for Jack's enormous love. You're right there of course, but that was the final result.
During their relationship, Ennis' closed nature was surely attractive for Jack! <^( IMO
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You know, Jake G. once said that Jack was so eager to make Ennis give in, but never succeeded completely. Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more. I'm no saying that it is 100% truth, but it is just that if we see 2 little boxes -one open and one closed - we would always choose the closed one. I assume you'd too! Because it is more interesting, more intriguing... That was the case with Ennis.
Of course that 20 years of unsuccessful attempts to make Ennis fears melt, to open Ennis' shell, Jack became bitter! :( Ennis turned up to be too stubborn and too closed even for Jack's enormous love. You're right there of course, but that was the final result.
During their relationship, Ennis' closed nature was surely attractive for Jack! <^( IMO
But I think we are talking about two different things here, baby. One thing is Ennis closed nature, his shy, stoic self. Jack sure loved Ennis the way he was, and he sure fell in love with how different was Ennis from him. But Ennis not giving in and overcoming his fears is another thing. That hurt Jack, and I can't believe he could like that Ennis kept telling him not. Jack didn't like that not even once. Remember his face when he talked first about the sweet life and Ennis said not. How could Jack love that Ennis said not to what he needed the most? Jake said that Jack was eager, yes, but eager to have Ennis in his life, because he needed have a life with his cowboy and that's why he was eager and so ready to fight for it, you know. You said that "Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more." But, baby, if that was true that'd mean that Jack was not in love with Ennis, that Ennis was only a challenge for him. I think that if Jack had succeeded he had been the happiest man ever, because that'd mean that he got the sweet life he so wanted, that Ennis gave in and they finally were gonna live together.
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But I think we are talking about two different things here, baby. One thing is Ennis closed nature, his shy, stoic self. Jack sure loved Ennis the way he was, and he sure fell in love with how different was Ennis from him. But Ennis not giving in and overcoming his fears is another thing. That hurt Jack, and I can't believe he could like that Ennis kept telling him not. Jack didn't like that not even once. Remember his face when he talked first about the sweet life and Ennis said not. How could Jack love that Ennis said not to what he needed the most? Jake said that Jack was eager, yes, but eager to have Ennis in his life, because he needed have a life with his cowboy and that's why he was eager and so ready to fight for it, you know. You said that "Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more." But, baby, if that was true that'd mean that Jack was not in love with Ennis, that Ennis was only a challenge for him. I think that if Jack had succeeded he had been the happiest man ever, because that'd mean that he got the sweet life he so wanted, that Ennis gave in and they finally were gonna live together.
Dear Tammy ^f^,
we in fact agree on this one. The bold words are not mine, but Jake's. Of course I didn't quoted it 100% correctly, but the main point is there. I assume that his words were probably said in some context....
I agree that Ennis' attitude hurt Jack so many times, but that was Ennis all way long - the whole package - shy, stoic, tacit! Ennis who doesn't give in! Had he give in, I assume that he would definitely changed from the bottom to the top! I am not saying that he would be less attractive ( ::) mmmm), but that's a whole another story!
Sure, years of his stubbornness (which was also a part of the package) made Jack bitter, and that was hurtful not only for Jack but for us too! :(
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This could likely be true! With Cassie it was obvious with their last scene when he says something like: " I wasn't much of a fun anyway."
On the other hand I believe that all people around him (Jack, Alma, Cassie and girls) loved him very much as Ennis had a deep, loving and beautiful soul. I believe that all of them felt his goodnees and kindness, and that was he reason why he captivated their feelings. The distance he built with others and his reluctance to give in, made him even more attractive I suppose!
Many times, a person who is capable of great love does not know how to love. This is certainly the case wkith Ennis, IMO.
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You know, Jake G. once said that Jack was so eager to make Ennis give in, but never succeeded completely. Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more. I'm no saying that it is 100% truth, but it is just that if we see 2 little boxes -one open and one closed - we would always choose the closed one. I assume you'd too! Because it is more interesting, more intriguing... That was the case with Ennis.
Of course that 20 years of unsuccessful attempts to make Ennis fears melt, to open Ennis' shell, Jack became bitter! :( Ennis turned up to be too stubborn and too closed even for Jack's enormous love. You're right there of course, but that was the final result.
During their relationship, Ennis' closed nature was surely attractive for Jack! <^( IMO
So you think it was partly the thrill of the chase? Do you think it was the same thing that made Ennis "toy" around with Cassie?
But I think we are talking about two different things here, baby. One thing is Ennis closed nature, his shy, stoic self. Jack sure loved Ennis the way he was, and he sure fell in love with how different was Ennis from him. But Ennis not giving in and overcoming his fears is another thing. That hurt Jack, and I can't believe he could like that Ennis kept telling him not. Jack didn't like that not even once. Remember his face when he talked first about the sweet life and Ennis said not. How could Jack love that Ennis said not to what he needed the most? Jake said that Jack was eager, yes, but eager to have Ennis in his life, because he needed have a life with his cowboy and that's why he was eager and so ready to fight for it, you know. You said that "Had Jack succeeded, maybe Jack wouldn't find Ennis so attractive any more." But, baby, if that was true that'd mean that Jack was not in love with Ennis, that Ennis was only a challenge for him. I think that if Jack had succeeded he had been the happiest man ever, because that'd mean that he got the sweet life he so wanted, that Ennis gave in and they finally were gonna live together.
Good distinction.
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So you think it was partly the thrill of the chase? Do you think it was the same thing that made Ennis "toy" around with Cassie?
Well, isn't there always a thrill of the chase? ;D
I believe that Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack because IMO he was a loving and a good person. I see him as a man with a very good soul, even he wasn't very soft man. Never openly showing his feelings made him even more intriguing and more interesting. Surely, Jack (and Cassie) was hoping to get "to the bottom", but he didn't. And that made him little by little very bitter.
I think that Ennis' nature and his refusal to give in are 2 parts of the same package. In other words - can we imagine a person with Ennis' nature who just easily falls in love, just easily accept "sweet life" with man? No! That's just not Ennis! And getting into his heart, into his fears, into his emotions was extremely attractive for others as one expects that the deeper is hidden, the bigger treasure he'd find. Unfortunately, Ennis never gave in, cos his fears and obstacles were too much to concore. The bitterness came with time, during numerous years of Jack's fight with Ennis' ghosts of past! :\'(
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Well, isn't there always a thrill of the chase? ;D
I believe that Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack because IMO he was a loving and a good person. I see him as a man with a very good soul, even he wasn't very soft man. Never openly showing his feelings made him even more intriguing and more interesting. Surely, Jack (and Cassie) was hoping to get "to the bottom", but he didn't. And that made him little by little very bitter.
I think that Ennis' nature and his refusal to give in are 2 parts of the same package. In other words - can we imagine a person with Ennis' nature who just easily falls in love, just easily accept "sweet life" with man? No! That's just not Ennis! And getting into his heart, into his fears, into his emotions was extremely attractive for others as one expects that the deeper is hidden, the bigger treasure he'd find. Unfortunately, Ennis never gave in, cos his fears and obstacles were too much to concore. The bitterness came with time, during numerous years of Jack's fight with Ennis' ghosts of past! :\'(
Interesting. Because personally, I thought that Ennis throughout felt a bit guilty for being with Cassie -- because I felt that he really did not love her. I would not go so far as to say that "pity" motivated Ennis. But perhaps he felt that he would lose nothing in entering a relationship where the other person was clearly crazy about him. It certainly gave Ennis confidence and probably her atttentions flattered him a bit. And it provided convenient cover...
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Interesting. Because personally, I thought that Ennis throughout felt a bit guilty for being with Cassie -- because I felt that he really did not love her. I would not go so far as to say that "pity" motivated Ennis. But perhaps he felt that he would lose nothing in entering a relationship where the other person was clearly crazy about him. It certainly gave Ennis confidence and probably her atttentions flattered him a bit. And it provided convenient cover...
Oh! I believe that there's been a little misunderstanding here. %&)
What I wanted to say is that Ennis's nature and his behavior in the terms of his stoicism and not easily give in to others is one package.
Cassie was attracted to him, but I never wanted to imply that he loved Cassie. I even said once that he didn't mention her to Jack because he didn't think much of their relationship (and I remember that you said the same thing too).
Ennis' reason not giving in with Jack was one his childhood fear, and the reason not giving in with Cassie was - Jack!
I believe that I caused this misunderstanding cos I said - "Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack" Maybe "for" instead of "to" would be better.
Hope now it's clear? Let me know please! ???
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Oh! I believe that there's been a little misunderstanding here. %&)
What I wanted to say is that Ennis's nature and his behavior in the terms of his stoicism and not easily give in to others is one package.
Cassie was attracted to him, but I never wanted to imply that he loved Cassie. I even said once that he didn't mention her to Jack because he didn't think much of their relationship (and I remember that you said the same thing too).
Ennis' reason not giving in with Jack was one his childhood fear, and the reason not giving in with Cassie was - Jack!
I believe that I caused this misunderstanding cos I said - "Ennis was interesting to Cassie and to Jack" Maybe "for" instead of "to" would be better.
Hope now it's clear? Let me know please! ???
Yes it is. :) But you also add an interesting point here: Ennis's stoicism. To accept Cassie's attentions at face value is consistent with this. Perhaps he took Cassie's love for him as inevitable, as much as he probably took the relationship to be something he didn't have to fight against...
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Yes it is. :) But you also add an interesting point here: Ennis's stoicism. To accept Cassie's attentions at face value is consistent with this. Perhaps he took Cassie's love for him as inevitable, as much as he probably took the relationship to be something he didn't have to fight against...
Inevitable? You mean that Ennis believed to be irresistible? :*(
I am not sure if inevitable, but surely he took their relationship very casually, and finally broke her hear too, cos she was obviously deeply in love him!
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Inevitable? You mean that Ennis believed to be irresistible? :*(
I am not sure if inevitable, but surely he took their relationship very casually, and finally broke her hear too, cos she was obviously deeply in love him!
:)
I think I should have used the term "fated" rather than "inevitable." Although I am sure that Ennis must have been aware that he may have been especially attractive to strong women who liked silent, stoic men. :)
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:)
I think I should have used the term "fated" rather than "inevitable." Although I am sure that Ennis must have been aware that he may have been especially attractive to strong women who liked silent, stoic men. :)
;D My English!!! In it's glory! ;D
Yes, now I see what you meant. But my explanation was close to that too! :)
Girls don't fall in love with fun, Ennis! But in stoicism! 8)
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;D My English!!! In it's glory! ;D
Yes, now I see what you meant. But my explanation was close to that too! :)
Girls don't fall in love with fun, Ennis! But in stoicism! 8)
No, it wasn't you, loreen. The word "inevitable" wasn't specific enough, and I understand your confusion. :)
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I think Alma wanted Ennis to admit his affair with Jack when she posted that question. After all, she told him that she put a note in his fishing box right after that. Maybe she thought that she deserved an explanation seeing that they were married before and gave birth to two daughters. In some way, I think Alma blames Ennis for their marriage failure. In my opinion, they would have divorced even if Jack hadn't came back into Ennis's life. After all, they weren't exactly happy, they were just going through the motion. I felt that when Ennis made love to Alma, he was actually pretending that he was making love to Jack. He was quite rough and Alma didn't look very comfortable during the process...
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I think Alma wanted Ennis to admit his affair with Jack when she posted that question. After all, she told him that she put a note in his fishing box right after that. Maybe she thought that she deserved an explanation seeing that they were married before and gave birth to two daughters. In some way, I think Alma blames Ennis for their marriage failure. In my opinion, they would have divorced even if Jack hadn't came back into Ennis's life. After all, they weren't exactly happy, they were just going through the motion. I felt that when Ennis made love to Alma, he was actually pretending that he was making love to Jack. He was quite rough and Alma didn't look very comfortable during the process...
It's not Alma who asked this particular question - it was Jack during their last evening.
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I think Alma wanted Ennis to admit his affair with Jack when she posted that question. After all, she told him that she put a note in his fishing box right after that. Maybe she thought that she deserved an explanation seeing that they were married before and gave birth to two daughters. In some way, I think Alma blames Ennis for their marriage failure. In my opinion, they would have divorced even if Jack hadn't came back into Ennis's life. After all, they weren't exactly happy, they were just going through the motion. I felt that when Ennis made love to Alma, he was actually pretending that he was making love to Jack. He was quite rough and Alma didn't look very comfortable during the process...
Which question were you referring to? But I agree that Alma blamed Ennis for the failure of the marriage.
IN the light of the failed marriage, Jack asking the question may sound a bit perverse. Did he want Ennis to go through the ordeal all over again. But we know that the question was a matter of probing deeper into Ennis's psyche, especially in relation to the Sweet Life...
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It's not Alma who asked this particular question - it was Jack during their last evening.
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Sorry...got mixed up. Jack asking Ennis that question was kinda strange. How often does one partner ask another when he's getting married again. I think it's a sign that Jack has finally given up on their dream to have a sweet life together. He's probably worried that Ennis is so alone all the time just like Alma is worried about Ennis...
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Sorry...got mixed up. Jack asking Ennis that question was kinda strange. How often does one partner ask another when he's getting married again. I think it's a sign that Jack has finally given up on their dream to have a sweet life together. He's probably worried that Ennis is so alone all the time just like Alma is worried about Ennis...
I suppose that this-yes-"strange" Jack's question is both a proof of lack of hope and a proof of hope still in this sweet life together,I'll try to explain it:On one hand,he began to feel that Ennis never was going to make the step further to live with him-as a matter of fact,I think he began to become more gloomy in this aspect in the scene of the long driving-and knew that Ennis having another "more official and well seen" partner had meant the definitive goodbye to his hopes.
But on the other hand,I have always had the sensation that he worried for Ennis present and future,his probabilities of being marked as "queer" in a small comunity,prone to the gossips against a long term single man...In this way,he could also be sure that Ennis didn't have another partner than him,and maybe this made him feel better with a,even slight,light of hope in his eyes.JMO.
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Which question were you referring to? But I agree that Alma blamed Ennis for the failure of the marriage.
IN the light of the failed marriage, Jack asking the question may sound a bit perverse. Did he want Ennis to go through the ordeal all over again. But we know that the question was a matter of probing deeper into Ennis's psyche, especially in relation to the Sweet Life...
This is the only reason I believe. Jack wanted to see where he's standing with Ennis. The best way was to ask an indirect question. The reply including Cassie was hurtful for him.
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I suppose that this-yes-"strange" Jack's question is both a proof of lack of hope and a proof of hope still in this sweet life together,I'll try to explain it:On one hand,he began to feel that Ennis never was going to make the step further to live with him-as a matter of fact,I think he began to become more gloomy in this aspect in the scene of the long driving-and knew that Ennis having another "more official and well seen" partner had meant the definitive goodbye to his hopes.
But on the other hand,I have always had the sensation that he worried for Ennis present and future,his probabilities of being marked as "queer" in a small comunity,prone to the gossips against a long term single man...In this way,he could also be sure that Ennis didn't have another partner than him,and maybe this made him feel better with a,even slight,light of hope in his eyes.JMO.
Somehow I believe that Jack knew that Ennis would never have any partner in so small community. he was afraid of being seen with Jack, not to mention have areal affair with anyone else.
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Somehow I believe that Jack knew that Ennis would never have any partner in so small community. he was afraid of being seen with Jack, not to mention have areal affair with anyone else.
I agree. Cassie could just be Ennis' way of diverting other people's attention towards his love affair with Jack. In the end, he didn't even care when Cassie left him or was seeing another guy, his thoughts were too preoccupied with the fight he had with Jack during their last meeting...
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I agree. Cassie could just be Ennis' way of diverting other people's attention towards his love affair with Jack. In the end, he didn't even care when Cassie left him or was seeing another guy, his thoughts were too preoccupied with the fight he had with Jack during their last meeting...
Cassie was also after him for a long time. She really loved him and did everything she could to make him marry her and love her. She couldn't understand why he behaved the way he did. So, maybe she was the disguise for his love for Jack, but not so intentionally, cos she was the one who was maintaining their relationship and who was into it 100%. I had a feeling that Ennis was just a blind follower with her, without any wish or intention or deeper feeling.
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This is the only reason I believe. Jack wanted to see where he's standing with Ennis. The best way was to ask an indirect question. The reply including Cassie was hurtful for him.
Exactly. It was an indirect question that Jack thought wouldn't rattle Ennis -- and yet, Jack knew that it as a type of indirect question that Ennis would understand...
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Exactly. It was an indirect question that Jack thought wouldn't rattle Ennis -- and yet, Jack knew that it as a type of indirect question that Ennis would understand...
Hm.. but do you think that Ennis got a hint there? Did he understand the meaning below the surface? I am not so sure. When Jack had his answer about Cassie, he also diverted the conversation into another direction.
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Hm.. but do you think that Ennis got a hint there? Did he understand the meaning below the surface? I am not so sure. When Jack had his answer about Cassie, he also diverted the conversation into another direction.
Yes, I think he got the hint here. That explains a great deal what was behind his counterquestion to Jack "And you?" Tit for tat.
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Yes, I think he got the hint here. That explains a great deal what was behind his counterquestion to Jack "And you?" Tit for tat.
Hm.. what I think is that Ennis was slow, but not stupid at all! I think that he knew much more than he showed, but it was his fear and his stubbornness that ruled his behavior. :(
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Hm.. what I think is that Ennis was slow, but not stupid at all! I think that he knew much more than he showed, but it was his fear and his stubbornness that ruled his behavior. :(
But I do think he caught what was underneath Jack's seemingly innocent question about marriage. And perhaps a part of him didn't like it at all... Still, he did his best to allay Jack's concerns, even as he countered the question with a similar question.
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But I do think he caught what was underneath Jack's seemingly innocent question about marriage. And perhaps a part of him didn't like it at all... Still, he did his best to allay Jack's concerns, even as he countered the question with a similar question.
But this is a very common reaction in Ennis isn't it? Like the one in the confrontation scene,when Jack says that he had once a"better idea" and Ennis counter attacks with his "Have you ever been to Mexico,Jack?".I think it's a very logical reaction in someone who can't and doesn't want to face embarrassing situations or questions or these ones that could mean a commitment.
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But I do think he caught what was underneath Jack's seemingly innocent question about marriage. And perhaps a part of him didn't like it at all... Still, he did his best to allay Jack's concerns, even as he countered the question with a similar question.
But this is a very common reaction in Ennis isn't it? Like the one in the confrontation scene,when Jack says that he had once a"better idea" and Ennis counter attacks with his "Have you ever been to Mexico,Jack?".I think it's a very logical reaction in someone who can't and doesn't want to face embarrassing situations or questions or these ones that could mean a commitment.
Yes, that's it! He figured it out, but as always he showed nothing on outside. And the example in FC is very good. He escaped the unpleasant questions and situations just slipping away to some other topics.
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Yes, that's it! He figured it out, but as always he showed nothing on outside. And the example in FC is very good. He escaped the unpleasant questions and situations just slipping away to some other topics.
It's part of Ennis's stoicism. That is why Ennis can be so enigmatic in scenes such as this.
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It's part of Ennis's stoicism. That is why Ennis can be so enigmatic in scenes such as this.
That can be enigmatic, but also annoying, don't you think? Jack never got to make him listen and talk/solve problems... ^^)
Anyway, I liked the look Ennis gave to Jack after Jack replied something about the foreman's wife - it was full of love and some hidden understanding for Jack! <^(
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That can be enigmatic, but also annoying, don't you think? Jack never got to make him listen and talk/solve problems... ^^)
Anyway, I liked the look Ennis gave to Jack after Jack replied something about the foreman's wife - it was full of love and some hidden understanding for Jack! <^(
I love this look also,because it reveals all what Ennis felt for Jack,but not always was willing to show,and less still with words.This is one of the greatest contradictions in him; keep on "nurturing" love inside Jack,and also inside himself,but never giving this love an opportunity to develop itself in a full sense...
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That can be enigmatic, but also annoying, don't you think? Jack never got to make him listen and talk/solve problems... ^^)
Anyway, I liked the look Ennis gave to Jack after Jack replied something about the foreman's wife - it was full of love and some hidden understanding for Jack! <^(
I love this look also,because it reveals all what Ennis felt for Jack,but not always was willing to show,and less still with words.This is one of the greatest contradictions in him; keep on "nurturing" love inside Jack,and also inside himself,but never giving this love an opportunity to develop itself in a full sense...
So true. Ennis was inarticulate in some ways and very expressive in others...
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Also reminds me of the smile he gave when Jack asked "anything interesting up there in Heaven?" And the smile when he told Jack that he "might run them sheep off if you don't quiet down".
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Also reminds me of the smile he gave when Jack asked "anything interesting up there in Heaven?" And the smile when he told Jack that he "might run them sheep off if you don't quiet down".
I love that smile in the first scene you mentioned above. It was really incandescent!
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I love this look also,because it reveals all what Ennis felt for Jack,but not always was willing to show,and less still with words.This is one of the greatest contradictions in him; keep on "nurturing" love inside Jack,and also inside himself,but never giving this love an opportunity to develop itself in a full sense...
^f^ That's beautifully said, mpj. That is indeed the crux of Ennis. He had only love for Jack, and no one else. He built up this love slowly over the summer until FNIT, then it exploded into SNIT, overflowing into the rest of the days and nights. But soon as they were back down the mountain, the lid came back on. And all he could do was to nurture it for the rest of his life, first the four years without Jack, then the sixteen years for a few times a year.
I wonder how long this would last after Jack's death. How long Ennis could hold on to this love, and not lose it without a constant reminder? Perhaps that's the significance of the two shirts and the post card. They are what Ennis knew he needed to be constant reminded everyday, so he wouldn't lose his way.
What you wrote (I highlighted in red) is really the essence of Ennis, the tightly clenched fist, holding on to the love he had for Jack, without ever letting go, except to knock Jack over.
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Thank you,Andrew ¡ :ghug: I think this is one of the multiple Ennis contradictions and the highlight of his inner struggles.But I think that the shirts and the post card are mostly a kind of eternal tribute to Jack and his love;more than a reminder for not losing this love's memories,it's for me a way of reflecting in some objects what it was and forever it'd be into his heart.
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I wonder how long this would last after Jack's death. How long Ennis could hold on to this love, and not lose it without a constant reminder? Perhaps that's the significance of the two shirts and the post card. They are what Ennis knew he needed to be constant reminded everyday, so he wouldn't lose his way.
A bit OT for me to comment on this, but I very much agree here. It is a memento in the real sense of the word: a snapshot of a lifetime, if this doesn't sound contradictory.