Just went to my 5th viewing today. Every time is a new discovery and thought process. One of them is the topic I am posting.
In the 2nd tent scene, why did Ennis enter the tent and apologize to Jack? How significant is his initiative?
Well..I have thought of the first question - still can't figure it out. Any thought on that?
For the second question, it is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was drawn to Jack and really took comfort in the relationship. The love making scene is just incredible. I could watch it over and over again.
Did he apologize or just finally accept? I felt it was more of a letting down the guard.
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
Great posts so far and I enjoy reading each one of them. Based on what I read here, could the following timeline be correct?
After the first tent scene -
The next day - Ennis went up to the sheep in the morning, later Jack went up as well.
The evening on the same day - the second tent scene took place
Is this the consensus?
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
I quite agree with you. I also think that when he is by the fire, hesitating, he is evaluating the consequences of his going into the tent (should I, should I not). If he goes, he is admitting to himself his homosexuality, and he knows darn well his life will never be the same after that. And he goes for it against all his fears.
If he goes, he is admitting to himself his homosexuality, and he knows darn well his life will never be the same after that. And he goes for it against all his fears.
If he goes, he is admitting to himself his homosexuality, and he knows darn well his life will never be the same after that. And he goes for it against all his fears.
Probably off topic
I am not sure if Ennis *admits* his homosexuality or even knows that his life will change forever during that hesitation. Keep in mind, Ennis was not even 20. I feel Ennis is just having a good time during the summer with Jack and thinks he could go on with his life. His struggle really starts after he parted with Jack. From Ennis's reaction four years later when he met Jack, he really missed him.
>>>I love the look Jack has in his eyes when he and Jack are about to kiss in that scene above.
Sorry - I meant I love the look Jack has when he and ENNIS are about to kiss.
This film sure got me good ;-)
I am SURE that, when Ennis enters the tent on the second night and he and Jack begin to kiss, Ennis is muttering 'I'm sorry, I'm sorry' - as I said, barely audible and they are kissing when he says it so may be difficult to hear, but I'm sure he does say this or something similar. And Jack responds with something like 'It's alright'.. Although someone did say earlier that this isn't the case so maybe I am hearing things but I do think something is whispered. Dam!! - can someone who is planning on seeing it again soon please listen carefully and check this? I found a lot of the dialogue difficult to hear but I'm sure I heard this.
I also have another question re. whispered dialogue: when Jack and Ennis are in bed in the Motel. Jack whispers something in Ennis's ear - quite a long sentence and I didn't catch any of it..what the hell is he saying?! Sorry moderators - let me know if I should post a new thread for this.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Our posts are beginning to sound like those of learned theologians expounding on talmudic or biblical exegesis!!! Is this a mark of OBSESSION or what!!!!!? :):):):)
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Our posts are beginning to sound like those of learned theologians expounding on talmudic or biblical exegesis!!! Is this a mark of OBSESSION or what!!!!!? :):):):)
In the good old days, not that long ago , ALL MALES took their hat off as a sign of respect.NO MALE would EVER have a hat on at the table.
Too bad that this is not the case nowadays.
J
My take is that he finally gave in (to the "whatever " it was between them). Remember the "look" Ennis threw at Jack when Ennis left the main camp and Jack asked, apologetically almost, "See you for supper?" after their *first night*? It was a look of disgust. Ennis was still not accepting at the moment. (In the book, it's a bit different, but essentially turns out the same way)
Then Jack went up to the mountain. A better bet would be Ennis didn't and didn't want to return to the main camp that night, so Jack went up there the next day and basically saying "let's talk" -- in their cowboy/herder/ranchhand way -- prop up on one elbow and side, then wait. :p
Of course, this could all happen on the same day.
Now that they "talked" and understood each other, so Ennis returned to the main camp. Jack couldn't just *pull* Ennis to the tent after the supper, so he went in first and whatever. Jack switched the role and was the camp tender anyway. Ennis could just head back to the sheep, but after some hesitation, he chose to continue the "courting". Of course he was really new at this, hence the "apologetic" and "vulnerable" look and behavior. (I'd say Ennis's being "apologetic" because the "mean" look he threw at Jack that morning)
BTW, I thought I heard (almost non-audible) Jack saying "shhh.. It's ok, it's all right" during the 2nd tent scene...
Yes, I heard Ennis apologise to Jack when he entered the tent (barely audible though it was). He said 'I'm sorry..i'm sorry' and then Jack responds 'It's alright..it's alright' or similar. My guess is Ennis is apologising for ignoring Jack and riding off after their first night together.
On a slightly different note, I love the look Jack has in his eyes when he and Jack are about to kiss in that scene above. He looks deep into his eyes..I would love to have seen that scene from Ennis's perspective to see how he was looking at Jack.
I heard Ennis apologize to Jack too. I think Ennis was apologizing for being so rough with Jack when they had sex the night before. So he whispers I'm sorry and jack says it's all right and then Ennis pulls Jack on top of him and they kiss. Beautiful.
Jenny D
In the good old days, not that long ago , ALL MALES took their hat off as a sign of respect.NO MALE would EVER have a hat on at the table.
Too bad that this is not the case nowadays.
J
Just an aside. In the Southwest, and I don't know about etiquette further north, it's OK for men wear hats inside. Of coiurse they take them off to women, but eating joints are filled with hatted men. Always were.
REALLY? Hmmmmmm I can tell you from New England all the way to Florida NO WELL MANNERED MAN would wear a hat at the dinner table or even the counter at the diner. Now of course thisk has changed in the last 15 years, BUT th emajority of people her do not keep their hats on, and would be considered very rude if they did not take them off.
That said I had togo to jury duty the other day and a few younger guys left their caps on in the courtroom and right away an officer of the court came in and told ALL to remove their hats. Now this was not even when the judge was there but just all of us waiting.
Interesting how things are in different localities.
J
T
This makes the submission theme, and the shield theme seem stronger to me. Ang makes a point of the hat held across Ennis waist. So maybe it's more specific, signifying Ennis' virginity.
I saw Ennis' taking the hat off when entering the tent as a point of submission, but the way he held it in front of him made me think he was also unconsciously using it as a shield. So maybe signifying a conflict between submission and trying to protect himself from his desire for Jack?
camom
There is no doubt... I listened Ennis say sorry. Italian translation of course is terrifyng but his advantage is that every word is well clear (for the stupid reason to be all audible even if like this dialog appears so feints!!).
I think that Ennis say sorry because he told Jack before that he refused to be "gay".. and that the situation couldn't have a future... by this way he offended Jack and the feelling which was growing in them... he offended himself...
coguaro
"It's alright"
_______________________________________________________________________________I heard Ennis apologize to Jack too. I think Ennis was apologizing for being so rough with Jack when they had sex the night before. So he whispers I'm sorry and jack says it's all right and then Ennis pulls Jack on top of him and they kiss. Beautiful.
Jenny D
There are some conflicting posts about Ennis's apology. Did he say that he is sorry? If you are going to see this movie again, please listen carefully. I think I heard it but I will pay more attention in my 6th viewing.
Just went to my 5th viewing today. Every time is a new discovery and thought process. One of them is the topic I am posting.
In the 2nd tent scene, why did Ennis enter the tent and apologize to Jack? How significant is his initiative?
Well..I have thought of the first question - still can't figure it out. Any thought on that?
For the second question, it is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was drawn to Jack and really took comfort in the relationship. The love making scene is just incredible. I could watch it over and over again.
In the good old days, not that long ago , ALL MALES took their hat off as a sign of respect.NO MALE would EVER have a hat on at the table.
Too bad that this is not the case nowadays.
J
Just an aside. In the Southwest, and I don't know about etiquette further north, it's OK for men wear hats inside. Of coiurse they take them off to women, but eating joints are filled with hatted men. Always were.
REALLY? Hmmmmmm I can tell you from New England all the way to Florida NO WELL MANNERED MAN would wear a hat at the dinner table or even the counter at the diner. Now of course thisk has changed in the last 15 years, BUT th emajority of people her do not keep their hats on, and would be considered very rude if they did not take them off.
That said I had togo to jury duty the other day and a few younger guys left their caps on in the courtroom and right away an officer of the court came in and told ALL to remove their hats. Now this was not even when the judge was there but just all of us waiting.
Interesting how things are in different localities.
J
T
I too was brought up in the E USA/European way to remove my hat. I was a stunned as you sound to get to Arizona and find different manners, although quite as courtly and polite as any folks anywhere.
After 8 viewings, Ennis doesn't say a word in the 2nd tent scene, Jack says "Its all right" ( in a mumbling whisper of course) three times before they kiss. All the words come from Jack's mouth. Are there different released versions of this film??
Same here, I saw BBM again today, and Ennis does not say a thing! He look sorry, but not one word comes out of his mouth!
How long does it take this PBS to run its couse??? I can't stand it!! *laughing*
Just when I thought I was beginning to get over this d*** movie, now you all point out these EXQUISITE details, and now I HAVE to go see it again! How long does it take this PBS to run its couse??? I can't stand it!! *laughing*
Just when I thought I was beginning to get over this d*** movie, now you all point out these EXQUISITE details, and now I HAVE to go see it again! How long does it take this PBS to run its couse??? I can't stand it!! *laughing*
This movie takes the 1st place in my movie list pushing any other movie behind (there was none actually) . And the 2nd tent scene - i can watch it for rest of my life. I'am too obsessed with this scene - trying to find out others' point of view. Many has amazed me. Like i never knew holding hat in some way - Ennis was in submission and what Jack was actually saying....etc. Well i guessed something else - during all my views - and after coming here - i realised i was totally wrong!!!. Jack's eyes when he was watching Ennis - mmmmm - no words to describe them. It is not only in 2nd tent scene....... throughout the movie - whenever Jack sees Ennis & when they close up on Jack - something happens inside me.
phooo I'am breathing heavy.
2nd tent scene is simply circling me like ghost.
This movie takes the 1st place in my movie list pushing any other movie behind (there was none actually) . And the 2nd tent scene - i can watch it for rest of my life. I'am too obsessed with this scene - trying to find out others' point of view. Many has amazed me. Like i never knew holding hat in some way - Ennis was in submission and what Jack was actually saying....etc. Well i guessed something else - during all my views - and after coming here - i realised i was totally wrong!!!. Jack's eyes when he was watching Ennis - mmmmm - no words to describe them. It is not only in 2nd tent scene....... throughout the movie - whenever Jack sees Ennis & when they close up on Jack - something happens inside me.
phooo I'am breathing heavy.
2nd tent scene is simply circling me like ghost.
Ditto
Haw! :'(
christe you told what I also think...
Ennis is always a stoic and close character; the "beans" story symbolize that... I think when Jack didnt want beans again and he refuses to eat beans while Ennis say that he can continue to eat it. This rapresents a general point of view in life! Jack dont want to force "adapt itself" to a situation which is not what he want... Ennis, adapting itself, accepting what is preconstituted (..maybe his future with Alma) go against his real feelings.
In the second tent scene finally Ennis let his feeling wins... this is a very important point which mean he take coknowledge..
coguaro
I love the 2nd tent scene as well. My favourite moment is when Jack is in the tent and Ennis reluctantly enters - and the shining light (maybe the shining eyes of love?) in Jack's eyes when he reaches up and holds Ennis's face. I do not recall ever seeing a more romantic or touching love scene in a film ever, and believe me, I have watched many films - old romantic, black and white films and nowhere did I ever witness such a touching, 'slug in the guts' scene as that. For that, Ang Lee, and Jake and Heath, should be credited.
It is amazing how the 2nd tent scene has affected us so much, but I agree, I think it is probably one of the most romantic love scenes I've ever seen. I think, for me, it comes down to the chemistry between Ennis and Jack, an unspoken chemistry up until this point, and, the way Ennis is, so vulnerable, so scared, but so wanting to be with Jack, but unsure of what to do, how to be. And when Jack puts his hand on Ennis's arm and looks into his eyes, forcing Ennis to look at him - that just makes me swoon. And then when Jack touches Ennis's face and kisses him - it's so beautiful and natural and I never want it to stop! God, I'm having trouble concentrating on anything, especially when we get talking about this scene! I know there are many other amazing and fantastic scenes in this film, but somehow this one transends because of it shows us the true nature of their love finally being realised. Notice how firmly Ennis keeps hold of Jack when they lie down - it's like, for him, this is it, this is real, and I want this, and I don't want to ever let you go. Heartbreaking and gorgeous all at the same time.
I also wonder if this scene was rehearsed or if they just went with the flow? I'd be interested to hear what others think about that.
You say you tried to explain it to your husband....does he get it? I'm married too, but unfortunately my husband does just not get it. I've tried to expain the powerful effect it's had on me, but he thinks I'm just mad. His indifference to it makes me so angry, but there's not a lot you can do. I take it you didn't go to see it with your husband? Is that because you didn't think he'd get it? And if so, were you right?
Sorry, I'm rambling, but you know, since finding this forum, I can't seem to concentrate on anything else. Are you the same?
I SO need the DVD too, just so I can watch it as many times as I like and freeze frame any scenes I like.....I so cannot wait.
You say you tried to explain it to your husband....does he get it? I'm married too, but unfortunately my husband does just not get it. I've tried to expain the powerful effect it's had on me, but he thinks I'm just mad. His indifference to it makes me so angry, but there's not a lot you can do. I take it you didn't go to see it with your husband? Is that because you didn't think he'd get it? And if so, were you right?
I've heard that the DVD will be out in April (in the UK anyway), but a little later in the US, which does't seem to make sense seeing as it's an American film. Oh, but I'm not complaining as I'm in the UK! Yay for DVD......hurry hurry. Do you think there will be lots of extra special features, such as interviews, outtakes, deleted scenes.....I so, so hope so.
Sorry, I'm rambling, but you know, since finding this forum, I can't seem to concentrate on anything else. Are you the same?
You're so lucky to have a husband who wants to go and see the film, I could not even get my husband that far!
You say you went to see the film the second time by yourself, did you not feel strange? I want to go and see it again but am having trouble finding someone to go with me, so may have to resort to going by myself?
anyway, sorry, going off topic. Can you help me quickly? You know the reunion scene where Jack and Ennis kiss passionately? I've seen that on this forum somewhere but can't find it now. I need to see it and wonder if you (or anyone else can lead me to it?). Is it on the logo documentary?
By the way, I should be working too!
You're so lucky to have a husband who wants to go and see the film, I could not even get my husband that far!
You say you went to see the film the second time by yourself, did you not feel strange? I want to go and see it again but am having trouble finding someone to go with me, so may have to resort to going by myself?
anyway, sorry, going off topic. Can you help me quickly? You know the reunion scene where Jack and Ennis kiss passionately? I've seen that on this forum somewhere but can't find it now. I need to see it and wonder if you (or anyone else can lead me to it?). Is it on the logo documentary?
By the way, I should be working too!
this scene is not in th eoriginal story in the screen play all Jack says to Ennis is "It's all right....It's all right."
NO sorry from Ennis.
Again we make of it what is in our own minds (hearts) What would we do?
this scene is not in th eoriginal story in the screen play all Jack says to Ennis is "It's all right....It's all right."
NO sorry from Ennis.
Again we make of it what is in our own minds (hearts) What would we do?
Actually YES there is a sorry from Ennis
Ennis says
"I'm sorry.. I'm sorry" to Jack
and THEN Jack responds with "It's alright"
I seen the movie twice in theatres, and I have my own copy on my computer, I held the speaker to my ear, and I heard,
"I'm sorry.. I'm sorry"
THEN Jack nods his head and says "It's all right"
When Ennis says "I'm sorry ... I'm sorry" his lips do not move, its like whispered but can be heard if you listen.
Hey guys! Have some questions:
1) In the first love scene in the tent, after Ennis realised that he was ... ehm, exploited by slutty Jack, he struggled as Jack held him by his shoulders. Ennis mumbled something that I couldn't make out clearly, what did he say?
2) I didn't hear what Ennis said when he entered the tent. If he said, "I am sorry", what was he sorry about? I can only guess that he wanted Jack to comfort him. Its not a "man's thing" to embrace another man, so I figured it was his way of saying he needed some help.
But what I didn't understand was Jack was already half-naked in the tent that night while it was all cold and freezing tits the previous night. I was like ha... Ennis is going to be exploited again as he entered the tent. No doubt it was beautiful but I had the feeling that Jack ~was~ waiting for Ennis to come in ~willingly~ as if it was a matter of time. :o
Jack! I underestimated you little son of a bitch! :D
You say you tried to explain it to your husband....does he get it? I'm married too, but unfortunately my husband does just not get it. I've tried to expain the powerful effect it's had on me, but he thinks I'm just mad. His indifference to it makes me so angry, but there's not a lot you can do. I take it you didn't go to see it with your husband? Is that because you didn't think he'd get it? And if so, were you right?
Sorry, I'm rambling, but you know, since finding this forum, I can't seem to concentrate on anything else. Are you the same?
I guess this just doesn't happen to heterosexual couples. I tried to explain to my partner and he does not get it either. He watched it once with me and that is it. I have gone to see it 4 times more either by myself or with friends.
The forum is now my life -- but of course part of the reason is because I am the administrator.
3) Yes, am not sure either why Jack was undressed when it was freezing cold out. He must've been sure Ennis would follow him in. Though I'm not sure why he would think that way, especially after how Ennis reacted the previous night/saying 'it's a one shot thing' . Can anyone suggest anything?
'Slutty Jack' lol - yep, he knew what he was doing alright! He had a very coquettish look in his eye a lot of the time - very flirty. I loved when Ennis is talking about his folks and Jack's mouth starts to curl up into a smile before he says 'That's the most words you've said these past two weeks.' That is a lovely moment.
Alicat xx
I don't know if anyone noticed Jack had that that curl up smile when Ennis comes into the tent and sleeps befroe the tent scene really began almost like Jack knew what would happen...... He had that same smile in the opening scene, also when he said that he won't stick to beans and also that he was a pretty good can opener... I'm telling that rodeo knew which bull he was riding...:)
I have to give it to Ang Lee he the second tent scene perfectly... I like the way he shot Jack's face coming up to kiss Ennis...that is a classic shot... very rarely done now days....I loved it...
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
I wend for my 3rd viewing today and I realized my previous reply was wrong...
The 2nd tend scene; there are two "I'm sorry"s and one "it's alright". Like Merags said, it's difficult to know who said what because Ennis's face was facing the audience and his lips weren't moving, but it doesn't mean one can't say "I'm sorry" that way :) And it makes more sense that it's Ennis who said "I'm sorry".
As for the meaning of it, it has a lot to do with the timing. It happened *right after* their first (or two) "attempt" of kissing; then Ennis said "I'm sorry...I'm sorry" because he felt awkward and wanted to back out! After all, it's his first time of kissing a man on the lips. Of course, with Jack's "it's alright" reassuring Ennis, we are able to see the most romantic scene afterwards. You go, Jack!
hi christie
i'am in same boat as you are. My husband thinks i'am total nuts. I thought to pull him to movie - by some other reason, saying "why don't you watch the movie - & kiss me the way Jack kisses Ennis in 2nd tent scene".......... He just brushed me aside.
I just failed miserably to make him watch this life-time movie.
But i have not fully crashed down. I'am here in this Forum, talking to people who have same feelings as i have for this lovely movie.
-bbmlover
hi christie
i'am in same boat as you are. My husband thinks i'am total nuts. I thought to pull him to movie - by some other reason, saying "why don't you watch the movie - & kiss me the way Jack kisses Ennis in 2nd tent scene".......... He just brushed me aside.
I just failed miserably to make him watch this life-time movie.
But i have not fully crashed down. I'am here in this Forum, talking to people who have same feelings as i have for this lovely movie.
-bbmlover
Withold sex from him and tell him he needs to watch the movie before you will resume... ;)
hi christie
i'am in same boat as you are. My husband thinks i'am total nuts. I thought to pull him to movie - by some other reason, saying "why don't you watch the movie - & kiss me the way Jack kisses Ennis in 2nd tent scene".......... He just brushed me aside.
I just failed miserably to make him watch this life-time movie.
But i have not fully crashed down. I'am here in this Forum, talking to people who have same feelings as i have for this lovely movie.
-bbmlover
Withold sex from him and tell him he needs to watch the movie before you will resume... ;)
Wo! Wo!
Well said Jim!
You're bad!
Me too! 8)
Came back from my 6th viewing. Yes I heard "I'm sorry" (I was not dreaming) and "It's all right"
But I am not sure who said it. I was in the big theatre with pop corn eating and others and I could hear it. I swear.
Came back from my 6th viewing. Yes I heard "I'm sorry" (I was not dreaming) and "It's all right"
But I am not sure who said it. I was in the big theatre with pop corn eating and others and I could hear it. I swear.
Gotta go see it now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Came back from my 6th viewing. Yes I heard "I'm sorry" (I was not dreaming) and "It's all right"
But I am not sure who said it. I was in the big theatre with pop corn eating and others and I could hear it. I swear.
If some of you think no "I'm sorry" was said.. you are entitled to believe that and I don't want to start some big old fight over if it was said or not but I know I heard it, so I know it is there, (for me anyways)
I don't think I heard!
I was so much concentrating on that scene the last time I went to BBM, someone already posted something about this, they got my attention.
Despite the fact I was already in tears just at the beginning of the music and Ennis sitting by the fire, friends I swear, Ennis whispered "I'm sorry" Then Jack "It's alright, It's alright"
O.k. there we go again the crying Queen of this board got started again. Sob! :'(
I just posted something about crying and laughing. You'll catch it.
No offense taken Madam! ;)
From the screenplay...Two "its allrights" from Jack....no other words....mercy...
From the screenplay...Two "its allrights" from Jack....no other words....mercy...
Thats what i heard... I wonder why some people here the 'I'm Sorry' from Ennis
rane99: I can't this constant back and forth about I'm sorry and Its alright bickering... :-
All these little things make me want to see the movie again! ;) ;)yes my brokeback is very special to me, in fact its a continuance of the film (with my own editing of course). In it Ennis and Jack adopt me to have their babies, we live in a tent up a mountain and i get to watch them bang each other every nite..............rane99: I can't this constant back and forth about I'm sorry and Its alright bickering... :-
"We'll run the sheep off again if we don't quiet down with all this bickering"
S'all right, s'all right.... that's one thing I noticed though.. there is sooo many scenes that are open to interpretation... "Did he mean this?" "Did he say that?" Did she know?" "What if...?"
I think this is partly why this movie is so great. We each have our own Brokeback.
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
Thanks, dirtbiker. Submission is a good word. It is such a rarity for Ennis. *sniff* too. I think this is the only one time when Ennis was taking the *lead* in the relationship.
From the screenplay...Two "its allrights" from Jack....no other words....mercy...
Thats what i heard... I wonder why some people here the 'I'm Sorry' from Ennis
I stand to what I posted before, be carefull friends It's all whispers, and the (beautifull :'() music plays too:
1st:
Ennis: "I'm sorry"
2nd:
Jack: "it's alright, it's alright"
I wend for my 3rd viewing today and I realized my previous reply was wrong...
Ennis left the camp, in the morning whit just THAT look on his face after Jack told him "see ya tonite for supper"
eautifull scene! :-\
Oh, That's RIGHT ! That look! Great scene!!
From the screenplay...Two "its allrights" from Jack....no other words....mercy...
Thats what i heard... I wonder why some people here the 'I'm Sorry' from Ennis
I stand to what I posted before, be carefull friends It's all whispers, and the (beautifull :'() music plays too:
1st:
Ennis: "I'm sorry"
2nd:
Jack: "it's alright, it's alright"
EXACTLY WHAT I HEARD!!
From the screenplay...Two "its allrights" from Jack....no other words....mercy...
Thats what i heard... I wonder why some people here the 'I'm Sorry' from Ennis
I stand to what I posted before, be carefull friends It's all whispers, and the (beautifull :'() music plays too:
1st:
Ennis: "I'm sorry"
2nd:
Jack: "it's alright, it's alright"
EXACTLY WHAT I HEARD!!
I heard Ennis say, "I'm sorry" twice before Jack assures him with that nod, "Its alright".
I don't think guys say, "Its alright" in ascending volume... Usually smoothing descending whispers
If you look closely, there is a "string of Jack's saliva linking lip to lip"... ;D
Such nice close-ups. Love it. :)
Well, I'm going again on Wednesday, so I'll have to listen really hard for all that, AND looking for the spit string (lol). I'll make sure to sit right smack in the middle.:D
camom
Didn't hear any I'm sorry. There was no clear reason for Ennis to be sorry. He didn't DO or say anything for him to be sorry for did he? Did I miss something? on the other hand, Jack saying, what I heard, s'right , s'right , s'right (which I should point out, can sound like sorry) i'm sorry and it's alright, whispered and soothingly can sound similiar.
for Jack to say s'right several times works cuz he is clearly in charge, as we agreed Ennis is submitting here, so Jack is reassuring him that being together is alight. No need to fear. We see further that Jack in fact takes the lead and has Ennis lay back. Clearly Ennis feels it's s'right.
OK, I think it's agreed that Ennis DOES say "I'm sorry", and even though I didn't hear it, am glad that everyone else thinks he did, cos it really does make that scene more special, as if it wasn't special enough.
Another point on this scene. When Jack sits up and puts his hand on Ennis's arm, does Ennis lean in to kiss Jack? It's just that when the camera shot moves and you see Jack moving into kiss Ennis, so it's like Ennis didn't lean in after all? Am I imagining this, or did anyone else see Ennis lean in?
I listened for it ... Ennis does say I'm sorry ... it makes the scene even more touching as he seems to be opening up a bit ...
I figure that he's apologising for being 'off' with Jack ... pretending it dont mean nothing and then coming back for more ...
The next time you watch, notice that when the first words said (and subsequent) are from Jack. Ennis is actually swallowing during the first "its allright." Why would Ennis apologize when he is admitting he does love Jack, want to be with him, and that this is not a one time thing. He only apologizes at the end of the movie to Cassie. Sorry, maybe there are different versions of this film..the on in NC is three allrights from Jack.
anyone ever think he says "i'm sorry" because of spit string?? hmmm
... My heart throbs plenty with what I hear him say through body language: I need you, I'm vulnerable, I'm yours.
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
I listened for it ... Ennis does say I'm sorry ... it makes the scene even more touching as he seems to be opening up a bit ...
I figure that he's apologising for being 'off' with Jack ... pretending it dont mean nothing and then coming back for more ...
:'( This what makes that scene so moving, just listening to the music cracks me up then, Ennis whispers... then :'( :'( :'(
from the MP3 can't you hear the same voice saying three things? Its all Mr Nasty...Jake probably would have articulated if he had not had all of that Heathspit on him..nice..
Just went to my 5th viewing today. Every time is a new discovery and thought process. One of them is the topic I am posting.
In the 2nd tent scene, why did Ennis enter the tent and apologize to Jack? How significant is his initiative?
Well..I have thought of the first question - still can't figure it out. Any thought on that?
For the second question, it is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was drawn to Jack and really took comfort in the relationship. The love making scene is just incredible. I could watch it over and over again.
Just went to my 5th viewing today. Every time is a new discovery and thought process. One of them is the topic I am posting.
In the 2nd tent scene, why did Ennis enter the tent and apologize to Jack? How significant is his initiative?
Well..I have thought of the first question - still can't figure it out. Any thought on that?
For the second question, it is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was drawn to Jack and really took comfort in the relationship. The love making scene is just incredible. I could watch it over and over again.
I do not recall ennis having apologized at all, see now that is another thing I have to see the movie again for LOL Man! that first kiss scene! so incredibly tender
from the MP3 can't you hear the same voice saying three things? Its all Mr Nasty...Jake probably would have articulated if he had not had all of that Heathspit on him..nice..
;) ;D :D
[/quote
Tough call here. Sounds like Ennis with the, "I'm sorry." Remember, Jack throughout the movie keeps reassuring Ennis with "It's alright". Even in the last scene.
This is one of those who shot Kennedy questions itn't it??? OR, could we find out??? Where can we possibly ask about this? Does Heath have an official site wher we can post wuestions?
I'm sorry but all I can get out oif it is Jack's it's alright...
I just don't hear it...I watched Heaths mouth and turned the sound up all the way AND I CAN'T HEAR IT grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I just don't hear it...I watched Heaths mouth and turned the sound up all the way AND I CAN'T HEAR IT grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
He is whispering trough clenching teeth... Well, his normal way of talking I would say.
Believe the Old Cham, I watched and analyzed this scene so much because it was pointed so many times on this board.
I just don't hear it...I watched Heaths mouth and turned the sound up all the way AND I CAN'T HEAR IT grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
He is whispering trough clenching teeth... Well, his normal way of talking I would say.
Believe the Old Cham, I watched and analyzed this scene so much because it was pointed so many times on this board.
It is isn't it...you think we'll ever agree on it? lol
I just don't hear it...I watched Heaths mouth and turned the sound up all the way AND I CAN'T HEAR IT grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
He is whispering trough clenching teeth... Well, his normal way of talking I would say.
Believe the Old Cham, I watched and analyzed this scene so much because it was pointed so many times on this board.
It is isn't it...you think we'll ever agree on it? lol
Not sure..unless we get Heath to Answer for us!!!
Not sure..unless we get Heath to Answer for us!!!
Now theres an idea...
Friends, I swear...Not sure..unless we get Heath to Answer for us!!!Now theres an idea...
chut up Cham :-X
But I know I heard it :P
well say the movie a 6th time today and Ennis is definately saying, "I'm sorry.", in the second tent scene. My mind staggers with what he is sorry for.
well say the movie a 6th time today and Ennis is definately saying, "I'm sorry.", in the second tent scene. My mind staggers with what he is sorry for.
If he does, and I am still not convinced he does :), then I think it is because of the fact that he "snubbed" Jack the day after the first tent scene.
well say the movie a 6th time today and Ennis is definately saying, "I'm sorry.", in the second tent scene. My mind staggers with what he is sorry for.
If he does, and I am still not convinced he does :), then I think it is because of the fact that he "snubbed" Jack the day after the first tent scene.
me too
...according to the subtitles..there isn't one!!! So now I am really confused..what about in France or in Spain or Italy..where they have dubbed movies, does he say "I'm sorry"?
Italy:
Ennis says: I'm sorry (mi dispiace)
and Jack answers: It's all right, it's all right , don't worry (niente...niente..tranquillo)
They speaks quite aloud ...
I think Ennis had decided to stoke the fires of their rapidly growing romance. He was replying to Jack's visual, unspoken invitation to make love, and wanted to signal his readiness for deeper involvement despite all his fears. Any apology may have been to his prior treatment earlier when he would hardly speak to Jack. or look him in the eye directly, after the night before's wild "ride."
I wish Mr. Lee could read this thread (and other threads like it). He would be so proud of his talent. A good director wants to make a movie where everyone who sees it gets something good out of every scene.
If he could read this thread he would see that each of us came away from the second tent scene with at least a little different interpretation.
Here is mine (it encompasses a little of most everyone Else's).
Ennis has been drawn out of himself for the first time in his life. He is talking more than he ever has. He is loving the friendship of Jack like no friendship he has ever had. He loves Jack, but is not in love with Jack.
First tent scene: Ennis is drunk. Jack brings to the table something Ennis was not expecting, sex. Ennis is terrified of the thought of sex with another man because of what his father made him look at when he was nine.
At first Ennis pulls away as if he had touched fire. Then, in his drunken state, he realizes that Jack is offering him something he has never had ("What are you doing?") Ennis is not queer. He is a man and a virgin, so he takes what is being offered as a young inexperienced man, roughly and violently. It could almost be taken as a rape, (except you can't rape the willing).
He wakes up and feels guilty he has had sex with Jack. He snubs Jack and shoots him a disgusted look as he rides out to the sheep. That afternoon, while riding up on the ridge, there is something eating at his mind.
Now here the screenplay says it is day time giving the impression it is the second day after the tent scene. Ennis comes upon a sheep killed by coyote pack. The sheep had obviously died violently. A look of shame washes across Ennis's face. A shame for the violent way he had treated his friend? A shame for snubbing him for a whole day?
That night, Ennis, still feeling guilty, approaches the tent in a very submissive way, enters and says I'm sorry twice (Yes, I heard it for sure although it is not in the screenplay at all). Jack replies it is all right.
Jack gently takes Ennis's face in his hands and gently and lovingly kisses him. Ennis kisses back. Ennis has given in to this forbidden love.
Ennis and Jack enjoy their remaining time on Brokeback Mountain as two very special friends----with privileges. ;-)
They are off of the mountain...Jack gets into his truck and drives away. Ennis walks about half a block and suffers a gut wrenching pain in his stomach and heart. Ennis no longer loves Jack...he realizes he is in love with Jack and should never have let him go. He will never see him again...he thinks.
Anyway, that is how I saw it. But, like I said, each way it was seen by others is just as valid. Mr. Lee did a great job.
I'm not saying Ennis believed or accepted at that moment he was gay, but in both the story and the movie he puts up no resistance to what he wants that summer on Brokeback Mountain.
alicat,
you are wrong
'I'm sorry for how he behaved on the previous night not at all
it only has to do with that moment Carpe diem? as Horatio would say
Ennis couldn't repent for his behavior of the previous night: it was just drunk sex and furthermore he had all day to deal with his remorse and shame. Most of us have experienced that one and after a while, we laugh it off. What Ennis is apologizing for is for what he is about to give Jack at that moment: it is what he wants to give him but can't, and what he wants from Jack, he can't expect in return. it all has to do with than and there. when Jack replies it's alright, he signifies that it is only that moment that counts: the rest will be dealt with later. one of the very few moments of passion we encounter in life.
what both didn't realize, was that this would gnaw at their lives forever afterwards...
What Ennis is apologizing for is for what he is about to give Jack at that moment: it is what he wants to give him but can't, and what he wants from Jack, he can't expect in return. it all has to do with than and there.
"...Ennis approaches Jack hat in hand...
Could it be that Ennis actually doesn't like himself very much and is apologising for his self and his apparent innocence ?
Or maybe he's still got this idea that homosexuality is "revolting" so his whisper of "I'm sorry" might be an apology for wanting something off Jack that he still believes is wrong?
Patriot1, I'm truly sorry if I raised the hackles on your neck, I certainly mean no offense to anyone in my posts here, it is more random contemplations then anything else.
I'm sure Ennis would never think of himself as queer in the story, though there is a suggestion of it in the movie when he asks Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows. And then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?". Now as I see it there are two ways this can be taken, either he is saying he thinks they know about him having a relationship with a specific man or just his attraction to a "man". It's a moot point because it's not in the story.
I don't believe Ennis would ever consider himself queer or gay, if you will.
homosexual adj of or exhibiting sexual desire toward a person of the same sex.I wish they would change that to same gender.
...don't get me wrong but I'm close to a contemporary of Ennis and Jack, I grew up in that period and know the homophobia well.
So in the end is Ennis queer? I think he is.
Once more, I am sorry if I upset you. Peace
Yes, that scene where he was somewhat hesitant by the fire and then taking glances to the tent where Jack was laying in, was so sweet. I believe that he realized that he couldn't deny his deep feelings for Jack anymore at that point, so he essentially, went it there, feeling somewhat vulnerable, taking his hat off and putting it by his chest as a sign of "submission" to the feelings that he had for Jack. *sniff*
Every time I view that scene, I look intently at their lips to see who's is moving, but I tend to become a bit distracted by their actions, rather than their words!
So Ennis says "I'm SO sorry"? Oh my god, that is too gorgeous for words. As if this wasn't one of the most beautiful love scenes I've ever seen, those words just add extra beauty and depth to it.
Thank you Patriot1, for all your hard work! ;D
Actually, you can not see Ennis's lips move. But, just before he says "I'm sorry" you can see him move his lips from the kissing position to the way he normally talks, with his mouth barely open.
Jack, there is a very slight lip movement that you wouldn't notice unless you watched the scene a hundred times like I did. But, you do see his head nod slightly when he says, "It's alright." They both whisper so softly it is even difficult to tell the voices apart. The words are not coming from the vocal chords. They are just air leaving the lips and manipulated by the tongue.
I haven't been able to see or hear anything even after turning sound up and all that.
I hear Jack say three diferent variations of It's alright lol
Could it have been added in post prod?
It's worse than who shot Kennedy :P
You don't even see Jack ever so slightly nod his head?
LOL Or who shot JR?
That "Who Shot JR?" dragged on forever..at least a few months into the following season. This debate will be over sooner!!! (Three its allrights here I think). Anyone heard the any other deviations from the screenplay in the film in addition to Ennis's apology??
That "Who Shot JR?" dragged on forever..at least a few months into the following season. This debate will be over sooner!!! (Three its allrights here I think). Anyone heard the any other deviations from the screenplay in the film in addition to Ennis's apology??
Basically agree with most of this, except cannot in my mind rationalize that the 2nd tent scene took place the night after the first. Since it is not in the book, guess we'll never know. But given Ennis' natural reticence, I cannot see them having such an absolutely stunning love scene the next night. Feel that Ennis would have needed some time before committing to even approaching Jack to say nothing about having sex with him again. Maybe that is what the "I'm sorry" is about, taking time in his own mind to reconcile that he does want to be with Jack. And sorry folks, I just don't hear it, but I'm old and feeble so it can be forgiven. Talked about this time thing in my post... why the rush?
The entire 2.nd tent scene is not in the screenplay
Basically agree with most of this, except cannot in my mind rationalize that the 2nd tent scene took place the night after the first. Since it is not in the book, guess we'll never know. But given Ennis' natural reticence, I cannot see them having such an absolutely stunning love scene the next night. Feel that Ennis would have needed some time before committing to even approaching Jack to say nothing about having sex with him again. Maybe that is what the "I'm sorry" is about, taking time in his own mind to reconcile that he does want to be with Jack. And sorry folks, I just don't hear it, but I'm old and feeble so it can be forgiven. Talked about this time thing in my post... why the rush?
I agree with those who have said it was a couple of days later that the SNIT happened. I think it would take longer than just one day for Ennis to work out what's he's feeling and make a decision to go to Jack in the tent.
What whole scene is just perfectly acted by Heath. He captures the indecision, the uncertainty and the vulnerability of Ennis brilliantly. The little look toward the tent, then back to the fire again - knowing he wants to go to Jack but still burdened by his upbringing and beliefs. Then when he finally does go into the tent the look in his eyes and in his face is haunting, keeping trying to break Jack's gaze as if he thinks that looking up will seal his fate - but then giving into it in the end. The first kiss just makes me melt - so tender and beautiful.
Sorry for dragging this topic back from the depths of page 6 - but I could talk about (and think about) this scene pretty much forever.
This scene is so beautiful. And SO romantic. I adore Ennis in this scene - sad, vulnerable, scared Ennis. He wants to be in that tent with Jack so bad, but has no idea how to be gentle, and loving and so Jack takes the lead. When Jack leans in and kisses him, and Ennis is trying his hardest to resist ("cos I aint queer") but he just has to give in, once he's tasted Jack's lips on his. I love when they have their first kiss, and they just stop for a few seconds, taking this amazing thing in, touching heads. Then Jack lies down with Ennis, and the look on Ennis's face is so full of so many emotions.....desire, longing, fear, intensity, love, lust. He's holding on to Jack like he's scared of letting go. He's drowning in Jack's love.Christie i love your post - it sent me right back there!! Couldn't resist adding that i love in this scene the way Jack holds Ennis, lies him back, and is almost content to just tenderly hold him, until Ennis begins running his hands over his body - leaving Jack in NO doubt what he wanted. I find it so romantic but incredibly sensual the way Ennis caresses him in such an intimate way - its almost as if he is the one taking the lead a little. :P :P Cold shower time for me - honestly tho - what a sexy scene!! :P :P
I love their kiss, and how intense it is. And then, just before the scene ends, they stop kissing for a second, and look at each other.
*sigh* *swoon*
it seems natural for the boys to deal with the issue the next evening or the filmmakers would have put something in the film to suggests the passage of time and/or showing how they did not deal with the 1st tent scene. Its allright is perfect following the "I ain't queer" exchange earlier in the day.I agree.
This scene is so beautiful. And SO romantic. I adore Ennis in this scene - sad, vulnerable, scared Ennis. He wants to be in that tent with Jack so bad, but has no idea how to be gentle, and loving and so Jack takes the lead. When Jack leans in and kisses him, and Ennis is trying his hardest to resist ("cos I aint queer") but he just has to give in, once he's tasted Jack's lips on his. I love when they have their first kiss, and they just stop for a few seconds, taking this amazing thing in, touching heads. Then Jack lies down with Ennis, and the look on Ennis's face is so full of so many emotions.....desire, longing, fear, intensity, love, lust. He's holding on to Jack like he's scared of letting go. He's drowning in Jack's love.Christie i love your post - it sent me right back there!! Couldn't resist adding that i love in this scene the way Jack holds Ennis, lies him back, and is almost content to just tenderly hold him, until Ennis begins running his hands over his body - leaving Jack in NO doubt what he wanted. I find it so romantic but incredibly sensual the way Ennis caresses him in such an intimate way - its almost as if he is the one taking the lead a little. :P :P Cold shower time for me - honestly tho - what a sexy scene!! :P :P
I love their kiss, and how intense it is. And then, just before the scene ends, they stop kissing for a second, and look at each other.
*sigh* *swoon*
It's sooooo true I ditto every single word in those quotes, and my 2 cents areThis scene is so beautiful. And SO romantic. I adore Ennis in this scene - sad, vulnerable, scared Ennis. He wants to be in that tent with Jack so bad, but has no idea how to be gentle, and loving and so Jack takes the lead. When Jack leans in and kisses him, and Ennis is trying his hardest to resist ("cos I aint queer") but he just has to give in, once he's tasted Jack's lips on his. I love when they have their first kiss, and they just stop for a few seconds, taking this amazing thing in, touching heads. Then Jack lies down with Ennis, and the look on Ennis's face is so full of so many emotions.....desire, longing, fear, intensity, love, lust. He's holding on to Jack like he's scared of letting go. He's drowning in Jack's love.Christie i love your post - it sent me right back there!! Couldn't resist adding that i love in this scene the way Jack holds Ennis, lies him back, and is almost content to just tenderly hold him, until Ennis begins running his hands over his body - leaving Jack in NO doubt what he wanted. I find it so romantic but incredibly sensual the way Ennis caresses him in such an intimate way - its almost as if he is the one taking the lead a little. :P :P Cold shower time for me - honestly tho - what a sexy scene!! :P :P
I love their kiss, and how intense it is. And then, just before the scene ends, they stop kissing for a second, and look at each other.
*sigh* *swoon*
Wow, you two, I am totally there with them again! :) Sighhhh . . . On another watching this morning, I noticed, too, how Jack closes his eyes for a second after they finally lock lips while still sitting up. It's as though he wants to savor this moment now that it's finally arrived--he can hardly believe that he and Ennis are together at last, and is overwhelmed with happiness.
It's sooooo true I ditto every single word in those quotes, and my 2 cents areThis scene is so beautiful. And SO romantic. I adore Ennis in this scene - sad, vulnerable, scared Ennis. He wants to be in that tent with Jack so bad, but has no idea how to be gentle, and loving and so Jack takes the lead. When Jack leans in and kisses him, and Ennis is trying his hardest to resist ("cos I aint queer") but he just has to give in, once he's tasted Jack's lips on his. I love when they have their first kiss, and they just stop for a few seconds, taking this amazing thing in, touching heads. Then Jack lies down with Ennis, and the look on Ennis's face is so full of so many emotions.....desire, longing, fear, intensity, love, lust. He's holding on to Jack like he's scared of letting go. He's drowning in Jack's love.Christie i love your post - it sent me right back there!! Couldn't resist adding that i love in this scene the way Jack holds Ennis, lies him back, and is almost content to just tenderly hold him, until Ennis begins running his hands over his body - leaving Jack in NO doubt what he wanted. I find it so romantic but incredibly sensual the way Ennis caresses him in such an intimate way - its almost as if he is the one taking the lead a little. :P :P Cold shower time for me - honestly tho - what a sexy scene!! :P :P
I love their kiss, and how intense it is. And then, just before the scene ends, they stop kissing for a second, and look at each other.
*sigh* *swoon*
Wow, you two, I am totally there with them again! :) Sighhhh . . . On another watching this morning, I noticed, too, how Jack closes his eyes for a second after they finally lock lips while still sitting up. It's as though he wants to savor this moment now that it's finally arrived--he can hardly believe that he and Ennis are together at last, and is overwhelmed with happiness.
I agree with those who have said it was a couple of days later that the SNIT happened. I think it would take longer than just one day for Ennis to work out what's he's feeling and make a decision to go to Jack in the tent.
What whole scene is just perfectly acted by Heath. He captures the indecision, the uncertainty and the vulnerability of Ennis brilliantlyThe little look toward the tent, then back to the fire again - knowing he wants to go to Jack but still burdened by his upbringing and beliefs. Then when he finally does go into the tent the look in his eyes and in his face is haunting, keeping trying to break Jack's gaze as if he thinks that looking up will seal his fate - but then giving into it in the end. The first kiss just makes me melt - so tender and beautiful.
Sorry for dragging this topic back from the depths of page 6 - but I could talk about (and think about) this scene pretty much forever.
Heath added a lot that was not in the script. "I'm sorry.... I'm sorry." was not the first thing.
Heath added a lot that was not in the script. "I'm sorry.... I'm sorry." was not the first thing.
Whoa, little darlin! I've seen this movie - like all of you - until I can quote in my sleep but when does Ennis say " I'm sorry...I'm sorry"???
Ennis says "I'm sorry" and Jack says "It's Alright" almost immediately after Ennis enters the tent..there are a lot of posts just above this one discussing this very topic
Heath added a lot that was not in the script. "I'm sorry.... I'm sorry." was not the first thing.
Whoa, little darlin! I've seen this movie - like all of you - until I can quote in my sleep but when does Ennis say " I'm sorry...I'm sorry"???
Ennis says "I'm sorry" and Jack says "It's Alright" almost immediately after Ennis enters the tent..there are a lot of posts just above this one discussing this very topic
Ennis says "I'm sorry" and Jack says "It's Alright" almost immediately after Ennis enters the tent..there are a lot of posts just above this one discussing this very topic
Actually Bubba, it was right after they kissed that Ennis says, I'm Sorry...I'm so sorry" and Jack says, "It's alright."
As to the timeline - sorry to jump in late with this - if the SNIT isn't the next night, which it very well may not be, would Ennis have stayed with the sheep the whole time - avoiding Jack - with no food? Or, does Jack ride out to Ennis - we see the sheep up close in this scene - and they have the "I'm not queer" conversation...then the next day Ennis comes down?
Did Jack bring him a picnic basket of supper?
Because the last line before Ennis rides off is "See you for supper"...the filmmakers let you believe that SNIT is following supper on the next night.
I want to be clear, too...and now I'm totally confused.
:-\
Just want to concur with all of you who believe SNIT to be a beautiful piece of work from the director, cinematographer and actors' points of view.
It is rare to see a love scene so intimate and so touching that it makes you cry. The sweetness of Jack's face, the gentle touch to Ennis cheek, Ennis sort of hanging there for a moment mouth slightly open like he's waiting for another kiss...it's all perfection.
Then when they lie down and Jack is so tender and giving and Ennis so wanting...I never, ever see this scene without crying - not sobs, just teary-eyed after a deranged number of viewings.
And, kudos to Gustavo for that music that feels like it's being played on one's own heartstrings.
Truly one of the most remarkable and believable love scenes on film...all else pales in comparison.
Danac, based on the screenplay I believe the 1st night and 2nd night happened on the same day.
JUST BEFORE DAWN: The boys discover each other sexually.
FULL LIGHT: Ennis awakens and goes outside the tent.
MORNING (LATER): Jack says, "See you for supper."
LATE AFTERNOON: Ennis rides along the ridge. Something eating at his mind.
DAY: Ennis finds dead sheep.
IN CAMP DAY: Jack washes clothes.
LATE AFTERNOON: One shot thing.
NIGHT: Ennis enters the tent and their love takes off.
The words in all caps are from the screenplay.
Danac, based on the screenplay I believe the 1st night and 2nd night happened on the same day.
JUST BEFORE DAWN: The boys discover each other sexually.
FULL LIGHT: Ennis awakens and goes outside the tent.
MORNING (LATER): Jack says, "See you for supper."
LATE AFTERNOON: Ennis rides along the ridge. Something eating at his mind.
DAY: Ennis finds dead sheep.
IN CAMP DAY: Jack washes clothes.
LATE AFTERNOON: One shot thing.
NIGHT: Ennis enters the tent and their love takes off.
The words in all caps are from the screenplay.
That was always my impression...and it works for me. Too much time to kill otherwise ;)
He was already so sweet doing the laundry...awww.
When you think about it, poor Jack must have been a nervous wreck all day wondering how Ennis was going to react. If badly, it was going to be a Loooooonggggg summer.
When he is doing the clothes and he looks up to the mountain, it seems like he is checking to see if Ennis is coming back, maybe that is why he is nude? Hoping to be "caught"?
Finally watched this scene in slow motion last night and all I can say is...HOLY SHIT!!!!!!
Finally watched this scene in slow motion last night and all I can say is...HOLY SHIT!!!!!! Every little change of expression, every flicker of the eyes, every touch enhanced....sheer perfection.
I would heartily recommend viewing it in this way if you haven't already - if you think it's beautiful at normal speed, prepare to be amazed by the slow version. Almost beats the slow motion nuzzle....
Finally watched this scene in slow motion last night and all I can say is...HOLY SHIT!!!!!! Every little change of expression, every flicker of the eyes, every touch enhanced....sheer perfection.
I would heartily recommend viewing it in this way if you haven't already - if you think it's beautiful at normal speed, prepare to be amazed by the slow version. Almost beats the slow motion nuzzle....
I love the kiss that happens right after Jack gets on top. Whew...must go watch again.
I love the kiss that happens right after Jack gets on top. Whew...must go watch again.
Don't forget to use the zoom button during these scenes !!
Holy f....k !
[
Don't forget to use the zoom button during these scenes !!
Holy f....k !
[
Don't forget to use the zoom button during these scenes !!
Holy f....k !
There's a bloody zoom button...omigod!...Karen, I'm so unproductive as it is...now you tell I can zoom on SNIT?
Thank God, I can have groceries delivered or my husband would starve!!! ;D
Friends, indeed this scene is wonderfully erotic. The beauty is both physical and spiritual.
Let us keep in mind that, zoom buttons and slow motion aside, this scene is beautiful because the acting is almost made to be invisible -- we feel the emotional 'heat' that only true passion (not lust) and deep desire can provide.
We need not be too reverent in our approach to BBM. And yet, we are always in awe at its beauty precisely because of scenes such as this one under discussion.
Thanks to all of you.
Friends, indeed this scene is wonderfully erotic. The beauty is both physical and spiritual.
Let us keep in mind that, zoom buttons and slow motion aside, this scene is beautiful because the acting is almost made to be invisible -- we feel the emotional 'heat' that only true passion (not lust) and deep desire can provide.
We need not be too reverent in our approach to BBM. And yet, we are always in awe at its beauty precisely because of scenes such as this one under discussion.
Thanks to all of you.
[/quote
Uh Oh..... was I being bad?
I'll go to my room without any supper :'(
Friends, indeed this scene is wonderfully erotic. The beauty is both physical and spiritual.
Let us keep in mind that, zoom buttons and slow motion aside, this scene is beautiful because the acting is almost made to be invisible -- we feel the emotional 'heat' that only true passion (not lust) and deep desire can provide.
We need not be too reverent in our approach to BBM. And yet, we are always in awe at its beauty precisely because of scenes such as this one under discussion.
Thanks to all of you.
[/quote
Uh Oh..... was I being bad?
I'll go to my room without any supper :'(
Friends, indeed this scene is wonderfully erotic. The beauty is both physical and spiritual.
Let us keep in mind that, zoom buttons and slow motion aside, this scene is beautiful because the acting is almost made to be invisible -- we feel the emotional 'heat' that only true passion (not lust) and deep desire can provide.
We need not be too reverent in our approach to BBM. And yet, we are always in awe at its beauty precisely because of scenes such as this one under discussion.
Thanks to all of you.
[/quote
Uh Oh..... was I being bad?
I'll go to my room without any supper :'(
Then I was, too, Karen. See you fer supper! ;)
Friends, indeed this scene is wonderfully erotic. The beauty is both physical and spiritual.
Let us keep in mind that, zoom buttons and slow motion aside, this scene is beautiful because the acting is almost made to be invisible -- we feel the emotional 'heat' that only true passion (not lust) and deep desire can provide.
We need not be too reverent in our approach to BBM. And yet, we are always in awe at its beauty precisely because of scenes such as this one under discussion.
Thanks to all of you.
I like watching their horseplay the morning after SNIT on ZoomQuote
Me too!!! Actually, I find it's the only way to watch, because you just can't see properly what's happening from the 'normal' shot. I love the way it's Ennis who starts the 'horseplay' (or should that be 'foreplay'? ;) ;D), not so shy now, is he? ;D
Moderator talking ~
As mentioned above could you please stay on topic.
I do not want to remove posts or lock this thread...thread that was really interesting....up to a point.
Thankx
Froggy
PS: you could either open another thread or exchange PMs.
I think it the significanse here is that this is one of only TWO times that Ennis takes the lead... he didn't really take the lead FNIT, he took over the lead, here Jack just lying still, albeit beeing very sexy, ut it is Ennis that starts it...he should be up with the sheep :) The other is the reunion kiss but thats another thread :)
I think it the significanse here is that this is one of only TWO times that Ennis takes the lead... he didn't really take the lead FNIT, he took over the lead, here Jack just lying still, albeit beeing very sexy, ut it is Ennis that starts it...he should be up with the sheep :) The other is the reunion kiss but thats another thread :)
It was almost like Ennis was saying "I don't know what to do after last night".
He seemed so shy.
I think it the significanse here is that this is one of only TWO times that Ennis takes the lead... he didn't really take the lead FNIT, he took over the lead, here Jack just lying still, albeit beeing very sexy, ut it is Ennis that starts it...he should be up with the sheep :) The other is the reunion kiss but thats another thread :)
It was almost like Ennis was saying "I don't know what to do after last night".
He seemed so shy.
Yes, exactly! And it still blows my mind that Ennis doesn't dive into sex immediately; rather, he makes it clear to Jack here that tenderness, intimacy, love are on his mind. He's obviously very physically attracted to Jack, but emotional and almost spiritual connections are just as important to him here. That's one of the things I love about this movie: it gives equal attention to lust and love, even more on the emotional love side of things, really.
They were so tender with one another. I believe both were hungry for that.
They didn't just have sex that night. They made love.
They were so tender with one another. I believe both were hungry for that.
They didn't just have sex that night. They made love.
Amen to that, Karen. Those boys understood each other completely; gave each other the intimacy, acceptance and love they both desperately craved. SNIT is like two souls coming together; in that moment, an unbreakable bond forged between them, one even death couldn't break. That was the creation of a deep and power love in that moment. So tender, sweet and, yes sexy at the same time. I love it--wanted some more of it! If only that scene was a couple of minutes longer--we might have seen whether Ennis REALLY surrendered to Jack that night! ;)
They were so tender with one another. I believe both were hungry for that.
They didn't just have sex that night. They made love.
Amen to that, Karen. Those boys understood each other completely; gave each other the intimacy, acceptance and love they both desperately craved. SNIT is like two souls coming together; in that moment, an unbreakable bond forged between them, one even death couldn't break. That was the creation of a deep and power love in that moment. So tender, sweet and, yes sexy at the same time. I love it--wanted some more of it! If only that scene was a couple of minutes longer--we might have seen whether Ennis REALLY surrendered to Jack that night! ;)
Whew.... is it getting warm in here?
Jack laying there, probably thinking..... is he coming in.... or not !!
Think he knew he would?
While Ennis was trying to get the nerve up, I was thinking..... get on in there.... you can untangle them sheep in the
morning ! He probably didn't go back to the sheep for days !
It seems to me that there's a hunger in the way they touch each other - my feeling is that simple touching by and of another human being is not something eithr has experienced much of before. There's a difference between desire and affection; FNIT is all about the former, this is all about showing the later. In a way being together, touching, kissing, feeling is a lot more about love - FNIT is largely blind passion and therefore violent, this is love and so gentle, caring, tender and that's why it's beautiful. If anything binds them together, it's this experience and I think this sensation that they try to recreate in subsequent meetings.
And I think it's so compelling because that kind of feeling is something we all want but don;t always, or even ever, get.
It seems to me that there's a hunger in the way they touch each other - my feeling is that simple touching by and of another human being is not something eithr has experienced much of before. There's a difference between desire and affection; FNIT is all about the former, this is all about showing the later. In a way being together, touching, kissing, feeling is a lot more about love - FNIT is largely blind passion and therefore violent, this is love and so gentle, caring, tender and that's why it's beautiful. If anything binds them together, it's this experience and I think this sensation that they try to recreate in subsequent meetings.
And I think it's so compelling because that kind of feeling is something we all want but don;t always, or even ever, get.
Amen. You described it all so perfectly. FNIT they had sex.... SNIT they definitely made love.
I also believe it was the first time either of them had ever experienced that type of tenderness from anyone.
They spent the next 20 years trying to recreate their first summer on Brokeback.
Damn.... I feel like crying now !
)...
Ennis' surrender was evident when he let Jack hold him; what I found interesting was how Jack flipped him in an fairly obvious attempt to "top" him...Lee made no attempt to assign top/bottom roles (thankfully, one of the many ingenious things he did-but that's a whole other topic), but I always felt if they ever took them, Jack would've been the bottom-but who knows? Again, that's just 1 of the many amazing things about the movie...
I think you are right about this :) Ennis went in there, initiated, but let Jack run the show... the exact opposite of FNIT
Ennis knew what waited for him in that tent . Passion.
I wanted to scream out at the theater .. get up off you ass and get on in there".
He did !!!
I thought he was going to cry there for a minute.
Dear Lord, whoever came up with the idea of Jack laying, straddled on top of Ennis, has my
thanks and admiration.
Ennis knew what waited for him in that tent . Passion.
I wanted to scream out at the theater .. get up off you ass and get on in there".
He did !!!
I thought he was going to cry there for a minute.
Dear Lord, whoever came up with the idea of Jack laying, straddled on top of Ennis, has my
thanks and admiration.
Yes, indeed. I thought Ennis looked really emotional, too. Scared, nervous, and excited at the same time. I don't think Ennis ever believed he could feel love like that.
I also think its saying, Here I am. please take me . I am ready to beging something special with you, I am sorry for what I said before or what I didn't say before..so here I am and lets see where this goes ..he seemed so nervous and unsure ...he wanted to reach out for affection and Jack made it easy by accepting him and saying Its okay and I will take you and make sure its good ;) :o
By making the first step and going in there, he was telling Jack all these things he couldn't verbalize. Ennis may be short of words but he speaks with his actions.
Just want to concur with all of you who believe SNIT to be a beautiful piece of work from the director, cinematographer and actors' points of view.
It is rare to see a love scene so intimate and so touching that it makes you cry. The sweetness of Jack's face, the gentle touch to Ennis cheek, Ennis sort of hanging there for a moment mouth slightly open like he's waiting for another kiss...it's all perfection.
Then when they lie down and Jack is so tender and giving and Ennis so wanting...I never, ever see this scene without crying - not sobs, just teary-eyed after a deranged number of viewings.
And, kudos to Gustavo for that music that feels like it's being played on one's own heartstrings.
Truly one of the most remarkable and believable love scenes on film...all else pales in comparison.
just wanted to say that each time I watch the movie and see Ennis enter that tent, well, each time I see the whole freakin' tent scene, I can't help but feel as if I were watching a little child. a little child wanting to give in, a little child longing for a hug, longing for a kiss, longing for a place where he can feel safe. home is where the heart is and from that moment forward, Ennis' heart was in Jack's posesion, therefore his home was in Jack's arms- in those arms that held him tight and never wanted to let go.
From that moment on, the two had left innocene, they had left everything they knew behind....and they went for it and found themselves a new home- in each other's arms, in each other's kiss....in each other.
just wanted to say that each time I watch the movie and see Ennis enter that tent, well, each time I see the whole freakin' tent scene, I can't help but feel as if I were watching a little child. a little child wanting to give in, a little child longing for a hug, longing for a kiss, longing for a place where he can feel safe. home is where the heart is and from that moment forward, Ennis' heart was in Jack's posesion, therefore his home was in Jack's arms- in those arms that held him tight and never wanted to let go.
From that moment on, the two had left innocene, they had left everything they knew behind....and they went for it and found themselves a new home- in each other's arms, in each other's kiss....in each other.
That's so beautiful Koka. and so true. Thank you.
just wanted to say that each time I watch the movie and see Ennis enter that tent, well, each time I see the whole freakin' tent scene, I can't help but feel as if I were watching a little child. a little child wanting to give in, a little child longing for a hug, longing for a kiss, longing for a place where he can feel safe. home is where the heart is and from that moment forward, Ennis' heart was in Jack's posesion, therefore his home was in Jack's arms- in those arms that held him tight and never wanted to let go.
From that moment on, the two had left innocene, they had left everything they knew behind....and they went for it and found themselves a new home- in each other's arms, in each other's kiss....in each other.
I also think its saying, I am sorry for what I said before or what I didn't say before..so here I am and lets see where this goes ..he seemed so nervous and unsure ...he wanted to reach out for affection and Jack made it easy by accepting him and saying Its okay and I will take you and make sure its good ;) :o
I also think its saying, I am sorry for what I said before or what I didn't say before..so here I am and lets see where this goes ..he seemed so nervous and unsure ...he wanted to reach out for affection and Jack made it easy by accepting him and saying Its okay and I will take you and make sure its good ;) :o
I don't think Ennis was apologizing for anything. I think he sat there by the fire - after thinking about it for a timeline we can't be sure of: there is no evidence that it was the night after FNIT - knowing that whatever he thought about being "queer", he wanted to be with Jack. He sat there, he made the decision to go to him...entering the tent was Ennis giving himself to Jack. He gets tangled up in Jack's lasso later, but he was already tangled up in Jack after SNIT.
I saw this movie at the theater and then watched it MORE THAN A FEW TIMES on DVD with the subtitles on so I could catch every word.
In the second tent scene, when Jack first kisses Ennis, Ennis pulls back a little during the kiss and that's when he says "Sorry." Sorry for pulling back, because he's a little scared..
Jack then tells him "It's Alright. It's Alright. Just Relax" and then holds him to calm him down. It was very difficult to hear this line in the movie.
As for the significance of Ennis entering the tent...Ennis wanted to be there, SCARED or not!!!!
I love coming back to this thread to see all the new thoughts and feelings over this amazing scene.....gets me every single time. :)
There's one thing I noticed on my latest viewing, and it may have been picked up already, and if so I apologise. When Ennis first comes into the tent, and Jack sits up, he places his hand on Ennis' arm, virtually straightaway. I love that. I love the fact that Jack knows instinctively what he wants to do, which is to be close to Ennis, be touching Ennis and it's as if its what he's been longing to do ever since FNIT. Its also a reassuring touch too, to let Ennis know that its ok, everything's going to be ok, and that Jack is glad that Ennis has taken that step into the tent.
I love coming back to this thread to see all the new thoughts and feelings over this amazing scene.....gets me every single time. :)
There's one thing I noticed on my latest viewing, and it may have been picked up already, and if so I apologise. When Ennis first comes into the tent, and Jack sits up, he places his hand on Ennis' arm, virtually straightaway. I love that. I love the fact that Jack knows instinctively what he wants to do, which is to be close to Ennis, be touching Ennis and it's as if its what he's been longing to do ever since FNIT. Its also a reassuring touch too, to let Ennis know that its ok, everything's going to be ok, and that Jack is glad that Ennis has taken that step into the tent.
I never thought about that before, christie, but you're totally right. Jack gives Ennis a non-threatening touch to get started, to get him used to being touched with his eyes wide open (so to speak!). Jack both shows him his attraction/love here and reassures him. What a guy. ;)
Yes, I agree, christie. :) And it's so important, too, that Jack keeps *looking* at Ennis--Ennis can hardly return his gaze at first, but here they're finally getting to know one another with their eyes, as well as with hands, lips, chests, and other body parts. . . .
Is it getting HOT in here?? Whew!
Yes, I agree, christie. :) And it's so important, too, that Jack keeps *looking* at Ennis--Ennis can hardly return his gaze at first, but here they're finally getting to know one another with their eyes, as well as with hands, lips, chests, and other body parts. . . .
Is it getting HOT in here?? Whew!
Yes, because I just got thru watching SNIT in slo mo.
I need water!
They really didn't hold back on that kiss, did they? ;)
Yes, I agree, christie. :) And it's so important, too, that Jack keeps *looking* at Ennis--Ennis can hardly return his gaze at first, but here they're finally getting to know one another with their eyes, as well as with hands, lips, chests, and other body parts. . . .
Is it getting HOT in here?? Whew!
Yes, because I just got thru watching SNIT in slo mo.
I need water!
They really didn't hold back on that kiss, did they? ;)
No Karen they didn't, Thank God. I would have loved to have seen the "dress rehersals!" Maybe Ennis was just as effected as the rest of us with Jack's tongue and he could not wait to taste it!
Whew! Need more ice over here!!
Yes, I agree, christie. :) And it's so important, too, that Jack keeps *looking* at Ennis--Ennis can hardly return his gaze at first, but here they're finally getting to know one another with their eyes, as well as with hands, lips, chests, and other body parts. . . .
Is it getting HOT in here?? Whew!
Yes, because I just got thru watching SNIT in slo mo.
I need water!
They really didn't hold back on that kiss, did they? ;)
No Karen they didn't, Thank God. I would have loved to have seen the "dress rehersals!" Maybe Ennis was just as effected as the rest of us with Jack's tongue and he could not wait to taste it!
Whew! Need more ice over here!!
The way Jack looked down into Ennis' face right before that good ole open mouth,
slurping kiss ! Holy Moly.....
I need a smoke.
Think they had a smoke after SNIT?
Didn't someone say they did 12 takes of this scene or something (or was that FNIT)?? I'd give a lot to see the other 11 too. ;)
Anyway, back on topic--I love the way they're barely tasting one another at the beginning of the kiss, but then they let themselves go . . . Jack kisses Ennis's forehead, smoothes back his hair, Ennis clutches Jack, strokes his chest--and finally they drink one another in, lying on top of one another, totally immersed in one another from head to toe.
Mmmm!
And one of the most touching scenes I have ever witnessed. <^(
Didn't someone say they did 12 takes of this scene or something (or was that FNIT)?? I'd give a lot to see the other 11 too. ;)
Anyway, back on topic--I love the way they're barely tasting one another at the beginning of the kiss, but then they let themselves go . . . Jack kisses Ennis's forehead, smoothes back his hair, Ennis clutches Jack, strokes his chest--and finally they drink one another in, lying on top of one another, totally immersed in one another from head to toe.
Mmmm!
And one of the most touching scenes I have ever witnessed. <^(
I'm loving all these comments about this gorgeous and hot scene.....I was getting hot just reading all your comments!!! And not just cos you were talking about smoking. ;)
But yes, Shieldmaid, you express yourself so well again....better than I could. The first SNIT kiss compared to the next one, when they are lying down, is so gentle, and the way Ennis initially hesitates....to me, its Ennis saying "ok, I want this, I want Jack, but I shouldnt want it, but I cannot stop myself....here goes"......so after that first initial kiss, and they stop to take it in, to take each other in, with the gentle touch of their foreheads together, and Jack's beautiful reassuring words, they lie down, and Jake envelopes Ennis in his arms, and Ennis looks like he has been waiting for this moment all of his life. He clings on to Jack with such intensity, its breathtaking. And Jack just allows him to explore, to touch, because he realises what this means for Ennis, as well as for him.
That second kiss is just something else though.....Ennis is lying back, opening himself up to Jack, ready to receive what Jack wants to give him.
I love that bit right at the end, when they stop kissing for a second, and just look at each other, with their faces still touching......pure beauty and I agree with you shieldmaid, one of the most romantic and beautiful scenes I have ever seen.
I'm loving all these comments about this gorgeous and hot scene.....I was getting hot just reading all your comments!!! And not just cos you were talking about smoking. ;)
But yes, Shieldmaid, you express yourself so well again....better than I could. The first SNIT kiss compared to the next one, when they are lying down, is so gentle, and the way Ennis initially hesitates....to me, its Ennis saying "ok, I want this, I want Jack, but I shouldnt want it, but I cannot stop myself....here goes"......so after that first initial kiss, and they stop to take it in, to take each other in, with the gentle touch of their foreheads together, and Jack's beautiful reassuring words, they lie down, and Jake envelopes Ennis in his arms, and Ennis looks like he has been waiting for this moment all of his life. He clings on to Jack with such intensity, its breathtaking. And Jack just allows him to explore, to touch, because he realises what this means for Ennis, as well as for him.
That second kiss is just something else though.....Ennis is lying back, opening himself up to Jack, ready to receive what Jack wants to give him.
I love that bit right at the end, when they stop kissing for a second, and just look at each other, with their faces still touching......pure beauty and I agree with you shieldmaid, one of the most romantic and beautiful scenes I have ever seen.
christie, you are too kind!! And your description of their embrace here is just gorgeous--they "take each other in," "Ennis has been waiting for this moment all of his life," Jack just allows him to explore": my heart is melting. ::) I really love the idea that Jack sort of takes Ennis under his wing here and coaxes him into letting go. Although Ennis took the initiative to go into the tent, it's Jack who lets him know that he'll be taken care of, that the tent is a safe and private place for the two of them, and that he loves Ennis in a uniquely tender way. Ennis isn't afraid to let Jack see who he really is, in the end, because Jack shelters him (I can't help quoting HI here: "Ennis never knew where he got the courage to get up and go into the tent, but the reward for his daring was the unexpected release of being cradled in Jack's strong arms.").
I love the idea of Ennis being coaxed by Jack into letting go, because Jack is there to take care of him. That brings me back to Jack touching Ennis tenderly on the arm as he first comes into the tent....Jack would know how nervous Ennis would be feeling, but the fact that Ennis made that first move lets Jack know that Ennis wants to be there with him....so a little touch from Jack like that would ensure Ennis knew he was welcome and wanted more than anything.
And that quote from HI is perfect isnt it? "the unexpected release...." what a wonderful way of describing how Ennis must have felt...it must have felt like a release to him, letting go all those pent up fears and thoughts, and just holding Jack and being held by Jack, it must have felt like he was in the place he had wanted to be in all his life....the right place. :)
You really echo a lot of my thoughts shieldmaid, and I love reading your posts. ^f^
I love the idea of Ennis being coaxed by Jack into letting go, because Jack is there to take care of him. That brings me back to Jack touching Ennis tenderly on the arm as he first comes into the tent....Jack would know how nervous Ennis would be feeling, but the fact that Ennis made that first move lets Jack know that Ennis wants to be there with him....so a little touch from Jack like that would ensure Ennis knew he was welcome and wanted more than anything.
And that quote from HI is perfect isnt it? "the unexpected release...." what a wonderful way of describing how Ennis must have felt...it must have felt like a release to him, letting go all those pent up fears and thoughts, and just holding Jack and being held by Jack, it must have felt like he was in the place he had wanted to be in all his life....the right place. :)
You really echo a lot of my thoughts shieldmaid, and I love reading your posts. ^f^
christie, I love reading your posts, too! You always capture the essence of these wonderful scenes. :) This is a truly touching idea, too, that Jack brings Ennis to the place he has always wanted to be. Perhaps that's what they most importantly represented to one another--the only place where they could be safe, could truly be themselves. No one else ever saw the real Jack and Ennis, since they were only that to each other. Sad, in the end, since they didn't get to spend their lives together, but SNIT shows us their true selves, in the home they built together.
I'm going to cry!! :\'(
p.s. OT, I know: Once again, I should be working--but this is one of my very favorite threads. I could talk about the nuances of SNIT all day long . . . .
One of the reasons we all focus on this scene so intently is because it's rare to see, in a movie or elsewhere, two people actually falling in love in front of your eyes - and that's what happens here.
This decision to go inside was so hard for him because going in the tent is actually saying "I want you", and Ennis Del Mar was no queer, so how could he possibly want another man?...
But the beautiful thing in this scene is how they understood each other without words. After all, Ennis could've gone in there and say "hell, that was really good, and we ain't got no women here..." or just flip Jack on his stomach and go at it like in FNIT. but he didn't, because this time he needed something different, something more, and Jack knew it. The minute Ennis entered the tent, Jack knew he was there for more than just sex. When he laid his hand on Ennis's arm and looked into his eyes, it was like he was saying "I knew you'd come, I know what you want. it's okay". Ennis didn't need words because Jack understood him. and then, in the way they looked at each other and touched and kissed each other, they were exposing their deepest feelings and telling each other that "this thing" they have is much more than sex, much much more.
But I was wondering... did anyone establish how long it was between FNIT and SNIT? also, like what month was it? How far into the summer of '63 did these guys connect?
This decision to go inside was so hard for him because going in the tent is actually saying "I want you", and Ennis Del Mar was no queer, so how could he possibly want another man?...
But the beautiful thing in this scene is how they understood each other without words. After all, Ennis could've gone in there and say "hell, that was really good, and we ain't got no women here..." or just flip Jack on his stomach and go at it like in FNIT. but he didn't, because this time he needed something different, something more, and Jack knew it. The minute Ennis entered the tent, Jack knew he was there for more than just sex. When he laid his hand on Ennis's arm and looked into his eyes, it was like he was saying "I knew you'd come, I know what you want. it's okay". Ennis didn't need words because Jack understood him. and then, in the way they looked at each other and touched and kissed each other, they were exposing their deepest feelings and telling each other that "this thing" they have is much more than sex, much much more.
This decision to go inside was so hard for him because going in the tent is actually saying "I want you", and Ennis Del Mar was no queer, so how could he possibly want another man?...
But the beautiful thing in this scene is how they understood each other without words. After all, Ennis could've gone in there and say "hell, that was really good, and we ain't got no women here..." or just flip Jack on his stomach and go at it like in FNIT. but he didn't, because this time he needed something different, something more, and Jack knew it. The minute Ennis entered the tent, Jack knew he was there for more than just sex. When he laid his hand on Ennis's arm and looked into his eyes, it was like he was saying "I knew you'd come, I know what you want. it's okay". Ennis didn't need words because Jack understood him. and then, in the way they looked at each other and touched and kissed each other, they were exposing their deepest feelings and telling each other that "this thing" they have is much more than sex, much much more.
You all are making me tear up with your beautiful interpretations of my favorite scene in the movie! I love the way Jack never breaks eye contact with Ennis after Ennis enters the tent, even when he throws Ennis' hat to the side. Jack is reassuring Ennis with those big, beautiful eyes that Jack will take care of him and love him without question. This is a soul connection they are making; love like this only happens once a lifetime if one is lucky. Sigh.
P.S. I bet they had to put "new tent" on their shopping list before the end of the summer---I bet they damn near tore it to bits with all their tent rocking! What I wouldn't give to have seen those scenes . . . :d)
This decision to go inside was so hard for him because going in the tent is actually saying "I want you", and Ennis Del Mar was no queer, so how could he possibly want another man?...
But the beautiful thing in this scene is how they understood each other without words. After all, Ennis could've gone in there and say "hell, that was really good, and we ain't got no women here..." or just flip Jack on his stomach and go at it like in FNIT. but he didn't, because this time he needed something different, something more, and Jack knew it. The minute Ennis entered the tent, Jack knew he was there for more than just sex. When he laid his hand on Ennis's arm and looked into his eyes, it was like he was saying "I knew you'd come, I know what you want. it's okay". Ennis didn't need words because Jack understood him. and then, in the way they looked at each other and touched and kissed each other, they were exposing their deepest feelings and telling each other that "this thing" they have is much more than sex, much much more.
You all are making me tear up with your beautiful interpretations of my favorite scene in the movie! I love the way Jack never breaks eye contact with Ennis after Ennis enters the tent, even when he throws Ennis' hat to the side. Jack is reassuring Ennis with those big, beautiful eyes that Jack will take care of him and love him without question. This is a soul connection they are making; love like this only happens once a lifetime if one is lucky. Sigh.
P.S. I bet they had to put "new tent" on their shopping list before the end of the summer---I bet they damn near tore it to bits with all their tent rocking! What I wouldn't give to have seen those scenes . . . :d)
Yes but how would they explain the need for a new tent? I think they did it everywhere. By the campfire, in the woods, by the creek, in the creek. I have been thinking about this too much, huh?
Oh what a thought...I think about this a lot too. I think the scene after SNIT with them fooling around and ending up the ground, was the film's way of interpreting what Annie wrote about them doing it everywhere.....who knows what happened after they lay on the ground, and Ennis leaned into Jack with his hat hiding their faces? Do you think they did it then, before Ennis went up to the sheep? Naughty Ennis, staying with Jack when he should have been up with them sheep! Well, I dont think it was much of a decision really - sheep or Jack? ;)
You know, I also think about why Ennis put his hat over their faces, because he didnt know Aguirre was looking. I know Ennis was obviously not wanting anyone to know, but as far as they were concerned, they were completely alone on that mountain. Its sad that he couldnt truly let himself go. :\'(
Sorry, o/t.
Oh what a thought...I think about this a lot too. I think the scene after SNIT with them fooling around and ending up the ground, was the film's way of interpreting what Annie wrote about them doing it everywhere.....who knows what happened after they lay on the ground, and Ennis leaned into Jack with his hat hiding their faces? Do you think they did it then, before Ennis went up to the sheep? Naughty Ennis, staying with Jack when he should have been up with them sheep! Well, I dont think it was much of a decision really - sheep or Jack? ;)
You know, I also think about why Ennis put his hat over their faces, because he didnt know Aguirre was looking. I know Ennis was obviously not wanting anyone to know, but as far as they were concerned, they were completely alone on that mountain. Its sad that he couldnt truly let himself go. :\'(
Sorry, o/t.
I think you're right, christie--they *did* do it before Ennis went back to the sheep. :) The short story says that Aguirre watched them for ten minutes until they buttoned up their jeans again and Ennis left. But I too have been puzzled as to why Ennis uses his hat here--after all, they believe no one's watching, and one would think that SNIT would be enough to break down his shyness about looking Jack directly in the eye. Maybe he's just trying to shade their eyes from the sun . . . . 8)
Oh what a thought...I think about this a lot too. I think the scene after SNIT with them fooling around and ending up the ground, was the film's way of interpreting what Annie wrote about them doing it everywhere.....who knows what happened after they lay on the ground, and Ennis leaned into Jack with his hat hiding their faces? Do you think they did it then, before Ennis went up to the sheep? Naughty Ennis, staying with Jack when he should have been up with them sheep! Well, I dont think it was much of a decision really - sheep or Jack? ;)
You know, I also think about why Ennis put his hat over their faces, because he didnt know Aguirre was looking. I know Ennis was obviously not wanting anyone to know, but as far as they were concerned, they were completely alone on that mountain. Its sad that he couldnt truly let himself go. :\'(
Sorry, o/t.
I think you're right, christie--they *did* do it before Ennis went back to the sheep. :) The short story says that Aguirre watched them for ten minutes until they buttoned up their jeans again and Ennis left. But I too have been puzzled as to why Ennis uses his hat here--after all, they believe no one's watching, and one would think that SNIT would be enough to break down his shyness about looking Jack directly in the eye. Maybe he's just trying to shade their eyes from the sun . . . . 8)
I think maybe the hat thing isn't deliberate, he takes his hat off to kiss Jack, then instinctively brings his arm up, and he just hasn't let go of the hat yet. I bet he dropped it pretty quick when Jack's hand dived between his legs!!! :d) Damn Aguirre, spoiling that scene by popping up at that moment :X
Oh what a thought...I think about this a lot too. I think the scene after SNIT with them fooling around and ending up the ground, was the film's way of interpreting what Annie wrote about them doing it everywhere.....who knows what happened after they lay on the ground, and Ennis leaned into Jack with his hat hiding their faces? Do you think they did it then, before Ennis went up to the sheep? Naughty Ennis, staying with Jack when he should have been up with them sheep! Well, I dont think it was much of a decision really - sheep or Jack? ;)
You know, I also think about why Ennis put his hat over their faces, because he didnt know Aguirre was looking. I know Ennis was obviously not wanting anyone to know, but as far as they were concerned, they were completely alone on that mountain. Its sad that he couldnt truly let himself go. :\'(
Sorry, o/t.
I think you're right, christie--they *did* do it before Ennis went back to the sheep. :) The short story says that Aguirre watched them for ten minutes until they buttoned up their jeans again and Ennis left. But I too have been puzzled as to why Ennis uses his hat here--after all, they believe no one's watching, and one would think that SNIT would be enough to break down his shyness about looking Jack directly in the eye. Maybe he's just trying to shade their eyes from the sun . . . . 8)
I think maybe the hat thing isn't deliberate, he takes his hat off to kiss Jack, then instinctively brings his arm up, and he just hasn't let go of the hat yet. I bet he dropped it pretty quick when Jack's hand dived between his legs!!! :d) Damn Aguirre, spoiling that scene by popping up at that moment :X
I thought the taking off of the hat thing was just a playful move on Ennis' part. A little undressing maybe to get the party started. Got to start somewhere, right? Oh wait, Ennis' pants were already unbuttoned, so he was just continuing the undressing! :d) Seriously, I don't think it was a deliberate act either, just a playful one. Aguirre sure did get himself a free show on that mountain. He was a perv to sit there and watch them through those high powered binoculars. Crap, I would've watched, too, so I guess that makes me a perv, too! >:D
Oh what a thought...I think about this a lot too. I think the scene after SNIT with them fooling around and ending up the ground, was the film's way of interpreting what Annie wrote about them doing it everywhere.....who knows what happened after they lay on the ground, and Ennis leaned into Jack with his hat hiding their faces? Do you think they did it then, before Ennis went up to the sheep? Naughty Ennis, staying with Jack when he should have been up with them sheep! Well, I dont think it was much of a decision really - sheep or Jack? ;)
You know, I also think about why Ennis put his hat over their faces, because he didnt know Aguirre was looking. I know Ennis was obviously not wanting anyone to know, but as far as they were concerned, they were completely alone on that mountain. Its sad that he couldnt truly let himself go. :\'(
Sorry, o/t.
I think you're right, christie--they *did* do it before Ennis went back to the sheep. :) The short story says that Aguirre watched them for ten minutes until they buttoned up their jeans again and Ennis left. But I too have been puzzled as to why Ennis uses his hat here--after all, they believe no one's watching, and one would think that SNIT would be enough to break down his shyness about looking Jack directly in the eye. Maybe he's just trying to shade their eyes from the sun . . . . 8)
I think maybe the hat thing isn't deliberate, he takes his hat off to kiss Jack, then instinctively brings his arm up, and he just hasn't let go of the hat yet. I bet he dropped it pretty quick when Jack's hand dived between his legs!!! :d) Damn Aguirre, spoiling that scene by popping up at that moment :X
I thought the taking off of the hat thing was just a playful move on Ennis' part. A little undressing maybe to get the party started. Got to start somewhere, right? Oh wait, Ennis' pants were already unbuttoned, so he was just continuing the undressing! :d) Seriously, I don't think it was a deliberate act either, just a playful one. Aguirre sure did get himself a free show on that mountain. He was a perv to sit there and watch them through those high powered binoculars. Crap, I would've watched, too, so I guess that makes me a perv, too! >:D
We all are Stacp.
What really intrigues me is........ it was 10 friggin minutes. Shit..... lot better than that 27 second FNIT !
We all are Stacp.
What really intrigues me is........ it was 10 friggin minutes. Shit..... lot better than that 27 second FNIT !
Well, it's nice to know I'm in good company. O0 I guess Jack and Ennis sure learned a lot of new tricks SNIT to go from 27 seconds FNIT to 10 minutes the next day. I don't think my heart could've taken 10 minutes of Jack and Ennis lovemaking. Well, I would just dig my grave, stand in it, watch the show, and then when the forest service found me dead with a smile on my face, all they'd have to do is throw the dirt on me! :8
We all are Stacp.
What really intrigues me is........ it was 10 friggin minutes. Shit..... lot better than that 27 second FNIT !
Well, it's nice to know I'm in good company. O0 I guess Jack and Ennis sure learned a lot of new tricks SNIT to go from 27 seconds FNIT to 10 minutes the next day. I don't think my heart could've taken 10 minutes of Jack and Ennis lovemaking. Well, I would just dig my grave, stand in it, watch the show, and then when the forest service found me dead with a smile on my face, all they'd have to do is throw the dirt on me! :8
They would bury you on the QT.
You need to roll up that pup tent before you start watching them though.
In case the forrest service comes snooping around !
We all are Stacp.
What really intrigues me is........ it was 10 friggin minutes. Shit..... lot better than that 27 second FNIT !
Well, it's nice to know I'm in good company. O0 I guess Jack and Ennis sure learned a lot of new tricks SNIT to go from 27 seconds FNIT to 10 minutes the next day. I don't think my heart could've taken 10 minutes of Jack and Ennis lovemaking. Well, I would just dig my grave, stand in it, watch the show, and then when the forest service found me dead with a smile on my face, all they'd have to do is throw the dirt on me! :8
They would bury you on the QT.
You need to roll up that pup tent before you start watching them though.
In case the forrest service comes snooping around !
I don't think the forrest service has designated grave sights on the mountain, only allotments. So I will bring the tent and the beer so we can camp next door and kick those Chilean sheepherders out. Anybody want to come?
Oh what a thought...I think about this a lot too. I think the scene after SNIT with them fooling around and ending up the ground, was the film's way of interpreting what Annie wrote about them doing it everywhere.....who knows what happened after they lay on the ground, and Ennis leaned into Jack with his hat hiding their faces? Do you think they did it then, before Ennis went up to the sheep? Naughty Ennis, staying with Jack when he should have been up with them sheep! Well, I dont think it was much of a decision really - sheep or Jack? ;)
You know, I also think about why Ennis put his hat over their faces, because he didnt know Aguirre was looking. I know Ennis was obviously not wanting anyone to know, but as far as they were concerned, they were completely alone on that mountain. Its sad that he couldnt truly let himself go. :\'(
Sorry, o/t.
I think you're right, christie--they *did* do it before Ennis went back to the sheep. :) The short story says that Aguirre watched them for ten minutes until they buttoned up their jeans again and Ennis left. But I too have been puzzled as to why Ennis uses his hat here--after all, they believe no one's watching, and one would think that SNIT would be enough to break down his shyness about looking Jack directly in the eye. Maybe he's just trying to shade their eyes from the sun . . . . 8)
I think maybe the hat thing isn't deliberate, he takes his hat off to kiss Jack, then instinctively brings his arm up, and he just hasn't let go of the hat yet. I bet he dropped it pretty quick when Jack's hand dived between his legs!!! :d) Damn Aguirre, spoiling that scene by popping up at that moment :X
I thought the taking off of the hat thing was just a playful move on Ennis' part. A little undressing maybe to get the party started. Got to start somewhere, right? Oh wait, Ennis' pants were already unbuttoned, so he was just continuing the undressing! :d) Seriously, I don't think it was a deliberate act either, just a playful one. Aguirre sure did get himself a free show on that mountain. He was a perv to sit there and watch them through those high powered binoculars. Crap, I would've watched, too, so I guess that makes me a perv, too! >:D
We all are Stacp.
What really intrigues me is........ it was 10 friggin minutes. Shit..... lot better than that 27 second FNIT !
Well, it's nice to know I'm in good company. O0 I guess Jack and Ennis sure learned a lot of new tricks SNIT to go from 27 seconds FNIT to 10 minutes the next day. I don't think my heart could've taken 10 minutes of Jack and Ennis lovemaking. Well, I would just dig my grave, stand in it, watch the show, and then when the forest service found me dead with a smile on my face, all they'd have to do is throw the dirt on me! :8
They would bury you on the QT.
You need to roll up that pup tent before you start watching them though.
In case the forrest service comes snooping around !
I don't think the forrest service has designated grave sights on the mountain, only allotments. So I will bring the tent and the beer so we can camp next door and kick those Chilean sheepherders out. Anybody want to come?
Just wanted to revive the discussion a little . . . What always amazes me about this scene--and I hope it doesn't sound too obvious--is that Jack knows exactly why Ennis has come to the tent. We know that Ennis is feeling very shy and fearful of their new intimacy, but Jack never seems to have a moment's doubt. He doesn't seem to wonder whether maybe Ennis has just come to hang out and talk or anything--rather, Jack just reaches out his hand and draws Ennis in. I guess maybe the unspoken communion between them is already so strong. Jack seems confident of Ennis's affection at this point, even if Ennis himself doesn't quite know exactly how to show it. But once Ennis lies down with him, his inhibitions vanish and he lets himself be swept away by the magic of feeling Jack's skin against him, fully, at last.Yes, i wonder what was said between them at supper, if in fact, words were needed at all? Was the conversation tense, nervous, clumsy? Maybe other things were purposely discussed as the tension built up and up? Or maybe there was just a comfortable silence as both knew what was going to happen was inevitable, and was finally realised by Ennis going to Jack in the tent? Fascinating scene this...
Just wanted to revive the discussion a little . . . What always amazes me about this scene--and I hope it doesn't sound too obvious--is that Jack knows exactly why Ennis has come to the tent. We know that Ennis is feeling very shy and fearful of their new intimacy, but Jack never seems to have a moment's doubt. He doesn't seem to wonder whether maybe Ennis has just come to hang out and talk or anything--rather, Jack just reaches out his hand and draws Ennis in. I guess maybe the unspoken communion between them is already so strong. Jack seems confident of Ennis's affection at this point, even if Ennis himself doesn't quite know exactly how to show it. But once Ennis lies down with him, his inhibitions vanish and he lets himself be swept away by the magic of feeling Jack's skin against him, fully, at last.
The facial expressions are perfect too, Ennis's tight and nervous as a novice, Jack solemn as he rarely is, as if in defernce to the significance of this moment.
Full of tenderness too, he didn't need to say a word, the eyes spoke volumes.The facial expressions are perfect too, Ennis's tight and nervous as a novice, Jack solemn as he rarely is, as if in defernce to the significance of this moment.
Jack just stares at Ennis never looking away even as he puts his hat away. The intensity of that gaze is so hot it's no wonder that tent did not go up in flames.
I'm always surprised by how different Jack's face looks here than in other scenes. He looks serious--but not desolate, as he does when he's missing Ennis. He is so happy to be with Ennis--but not smiling in a goofy way. He looks at Ennis with tenderness, total attention, and a quiet kind of amazement that this is really happening.
Jack has the same expression on his face during the reunion kiss right before he slams Ennis into the wall. His expression says, "I love you." just as clearly as if he had spoken the words.
Yes, i also see a slight variation of this look when he is about to lassoe Ennis, love, concern, it's beautiful really. I can almost see him sighing because they have to leave just by looking at his eyes in that scene. A little O/T - apologies!!Jack has the same expression on his face during the reunion kiss right before he slams Ennis into the wall. His expression says, "I love you." just as clearly as if he had spoken the words.
Yes, absolutely!! His eyes focus in completely on Ennis--he can't look away from Ennis's lips.
Jack has the same expression on his face during the reunion kiss right before he slams Ennis into the wall. His expression says, "I love you." just as clearly as if he had spoken the words.
Yes, absolutely!! His eyes focus in completely on Ennis--he can't look away from Ennis's lips.
"My face in thine eye, thine in mine appears,
And true plain hearts do in the faces rest."
If the eyes are the windows of the soul, then their souls are there in their eyes in this scene, and their eyes reflect each other and shut out the rest of the world.
Jack has the same expression on his face during the reunion kiss right before he slams Ennis into the wall. His expression says, "I love you." just as clearly as if he had spoken the words.
Yes, absolutely!! His eyes focus in completely on Ennis--he can't look away from Ennis's lips.
Thats absolutely it Shieldmaid, the minute Ennis comes into the tent, Jack looks at Ennis and never stops. Its that intensity that gets me, that makes the scene amazing, we look at Ennis and see the person Jack sees, the shy, vulnerable, nervous Ennis, and we want Jack to take Ennis in and control the situation as much as he does (well, maybe not as much!).
"My face in thine eye, thine in mine appears,
And true plain hearts do in the faces rest."
If the eyes are the windows of the soul, then their souls are there in their eyes in this scene, and their eyes reflect each other and shut out the rest of the world.
excellent welshwitch.
But once Ennis lets go and surrenders, it's sexier than hell that he pulls Jack on top of him, wanting to feel Jack completely on top of him and kiss him face to face. Sigh and :d).
But once Ennis lets go and surrenders, it's sexier than hell that he pulls Jack on top of him, wanting to feel Jack completely on top of him and kiss him face to face. Sigh and :d).
I think you need to watch the movie again Stacp Ennis did not pull Jack on top of him, Jack rolled Ennis over and climbed on top of him.
I think you need to watch the movie again Stacp Ennis did not pull Jack on top of him, Jack rolled Ennis over and climbed on top of him.
Sorry to disagree, but Ennis most certainly pulls, slightly however, Jack on top of him. Look at Ennis's left hand go from Jack's chest to his Jack back to pull him. Looks like Jack gets the hint and rolls on top.
Thanks for those photos, Patriot, those are so nice, and yes, Jack has great arms. But to get back to the topic. Watch RIGHT before your pics starts... Where Ennis has his hand Jacks face, then his hand wanders down to Jack's chest, then to Jack's back... look at Ennis's arm motion there... it looks like he is kinda rockin' his arms there, now that his hand is behind Jack and motioning Jack on top....
To me it looks like Ennis is pulling Jack on on.. not hard, mind you.. more like giving him a hint... it looks like that to me..
One of the reasons we all focus on this scene so intently is because it's rare to see, in a movie or elsewhere, two people actually falling in love in front of your eyes - and that's what happens here.
Hmmmmm...maybe you and I can reenact this scene and give a report on it later. ;) ;D
If the women here are any indication, maybe we can even sell tickets and make some money to cover our research expenses. You know, wine, cheese, condoms, apples, grapes. :8
Hmmmmm...maybe you and I can reenact this scene and give a report on it later. ;) ;D
If the women here are any indication, maybe we can even sell tickets and make some money to cover our research expenses. You know, wine, cheese, condoms, apples, grapes. :8
You just made me laugh so hard and I really needed it... thanks, Patriot. O0
CherryCake, using the portion of film you indicate we can have an eternal debate. I have watched it numerous times and I feel all Ennis is doing is rubbing Jack's side, I mean he is quite touchy feely here. But, we can not see what his hand is doing so...who knows. But I believe that Jack having his hand behind Ennis' left shoulder and his right hand holding Ennis' upper arm, this is indication that Jack was pulling himself up and to the right while holding on to Ennis so Ennis couldn't get away from him.
I guess we are going to have to leave this one at, whoever watches sees what they see.
I see Jack in full control and rolling Ennis over and climbing on top of him.
Hmmmmm...maybe you and I can reenact this scene and give a report on it later. ;) ;D
If the women here are any indication, maybe we can even sell tickets and make some money to cover our research expenses. You know, wine, cheese, condoms, apples, grapes. :8
Thanks for those photos, Patriot, those are so nice, and yes, Jack has great arms. But to get back to the topic. Watch RIGHT before your pics starts... Where Ennis has his hand Jacks face, then his hand wanders down to Jack's chest, then to Jack's back... look at Ennis's arm motion there... it looks like he is kinda rockin' his arms there, now that his hand is behind Jack and motioning Jack on top....
To me it looks like Ennis is pulling Jack on on.. not hard, mind you.. more like giving him a hint... it looks like that to me..
CherryCake, using the portion of film you indicate we can have an eternal debate. I have watched it numerous times and I feel all Ennis is doing is rubbing Jack's side, I mean he is quite touchy feely here. But, we can not see what his hand is doing so...who knows. But I believe that Jack having his hand behind Ennis' left shoulder and his right hand holding Ennis' upper arm, this is indication that Jack was pulling himself up and to the right while holding on to Ennis so Ennis couldn't get away from him.
I guess we are going to have to leave this one at, whoever watches sees what they see.
I see Jack in full control and rolling Ennis over and climbing on top of him.
Hmmmmm...maybe you and I can reenact this scene and give a report on it later. ;) ;D
If the women here are any indication, maybe we can even sell tickets and make some money to cover our research expenses. You know, wine, cheese, condoms, apples, grapes. :8
Oops! Did it again. *o)
I doubt that it matters much anyway who did the pulling or pushing here, does it? What does matter is that they were of one mind in this scene--they wanted to be together, to explore each other's bodies and learn the feel of one another's skin. Obviously Ennis wanted to feel Jack's skin, as he's clutching and rubbing Jack's side--and Jack is worshipping Ennis's forehead, arms, lips, etc., with his tender caresses. Perhaps Ennis tugged Jack toward him even as Jack was summoning his strength to climb over on top of Ennis. I always thought Jack took the initiative here, but I find it incredibly touching--and hot!--to think of Ennis surrendering completely to the moment and bringing Jack over on top of him. Bravo to both. ^f^
I doubt that it matters much anyway who did the pulling or pushing here, does it? What does matter is that they were of one mind in this scene--they wanted to be together, to explore each other's bodies and learn the feel of one another's skin. Obviously Ennis wanted to feel Jack's skin, as he's clutching and rubbing Jack's side--and Jack is worshipping Ennis's forehead, arms, lips, etc., with his tender caresses. Perhaps Ennis tugged Jack toward him even as Jack was summoning his strength to climb over on top of Ennis. I always thought Jack took the initiative here, but I find it incredibly touching--and hot!--to think of Ennis surrendering completely to the moment and bringing Jack over on top of him. Bravo to both. ^f^
They are ..like two in one.. <^((https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2456%2Fcap0247cm.jpg&hash=6aa3850b66a55944b16213e762c8843573284f34)OMG!! It's so delirious !! <^(
I doubt that it matters much anyway who did the pulling or pushing here, does it? What does matter is that they were of one mind in this scene--they wanted to be together, to explore each other's bodies and learn the feel of one another's skin. Obviously Ennis wanted to feel Jack's skin, as he's clutching and rubbing Jack's side--and Jack is worshipping Ennis's forehead, arms, lips, etc., with his tender caresses. Perhaps Ennis tugged Jack toward him even as Jack was summoning his strength to climb over on top of Ennis. I always thought Jack took the initiative here, but I find it incredibly touching--and hot!--to think of Ennis surrendering completely to the moment and bringing Jack over on top of him. Bravo to both. ^f^
What a beautiful description of this scene. I'm totally melting here...
I doubt that it matters much anyway who did the pulling or pushing here, does it? What does matter is that they were of one mind in this scene--they wanted to be together, to explore each other's bodies and learn the feel of one another's skin. Obviously Ennis wanted to feel Jack's skin, as he's clutching and rubbing Jack's side--and Jack is worshipping Ennis's forehead, arms, lips, etc., with his tender caresses. Perhaps Ennis tugged Jack toward him even as Jack was summoning his strength to climb over on top of Ennis. I always thought Jack took the initiative here, but I find it incredibly touching--and hot!--to think of Ennis surrendering completely to the moment and bringing Jack over on top of him. Bravo to both. ^f^
What a beautiful description of this scene. I'm totally melting here...
I second that...i love the idea of them wanting to touch each other ... thankx
One thing we definitly learn about Ennis in this scene, He likes kissin Jack. Sure nuff . Not only does he pull Jack over onto him, He Breathlessly says "comon" (been usin the trusty earphones again). Jack seemed to be waiting and letting Ennis "discover" him before diving in. Ennis pulled him over though. And how about raising up to meet Jack's kisses . THIS IS HOT! ...............OMG I'm melting.
You can equally say that it shows Jack that Ennis doesn't just want a quick f**k but something more meaningful and gentle.
As for the whole debate about Ennis pulling Jack on to him/Jack rolling on top of Ennis, I've always thought it was the former.It's only a gentle pull, like CherryCake says, more of a hint, than a full blown come-on, but enough to let Jack know what he wanted. If Ennis didn't want Jack on top of him, surely he would have resisted, but he doesn't,and he doesn't just "allow" Jack to get on top of him, he's positively inviting him to, at least that's how it looks to me, the way he lies back, it's like saying "any way you want me, I'm yours" <^(
As for the whole debate about Ennis pulling Jack on to him/Jack rolling on top of Ennis, I've always thought it was the former.It's only a gentle pull, like CherryCake says, more of a hint, than a full blown come-on, but enough to let Jack know what he wanted. If Ennis didn't want Jack on top of him, surely he would have resisted, but he doesn't,and he doesn't just "allow" Jack to get on top of him, he's positively inviting him to, at least that's how it looks to me, the way he lies back, it's like saying "any way you want me, I'm yours" <^(
I love every single instant of this scene, love this discussion and what everyone has said. I love the dynamics between Ennis and Jack in this scene very much; but the best, for me, are those Ennis moments, and the best of those, for me, are: when he indicates to Jack he wants him on top (however he is seen to do this, and "inviting," as CrimsonSky says, is a good way to put it) and then the way he "surrenders" when he lies back and Jack rolls over on top. And then, the way he lifts his head to meet Jack and kiss. Exquisite, that we would see the FNIT experience, which makes perfect sense under the circumstances, and then see the SNIT showing how they are learning how they want to make love.
kathy
I don't know if this has been discussed before but I wonder if the SNIT (where we first see them kiss) was the night after the FNIT? In the heart-melting flashback scene after their big "Mexico" fight, Ennis hugs Jack from behind and in the SS it says that it was because Ennis would "not then" embrace him face to face. I took this to mean that although Ennis felt very deeply for Jack, he couldn't quite reconcile himself to kiss him. That scene in front of the camp fire looks like they are well into their relationship and Ennis isn't spending the night because he says "See you in the morning". What do other people think? Is my timeline all confused?
I don't know if this has been discussed before but I wonder if the SNIT (where we first see them kiss) was the night after the FNIT? In the heart-melting flashback scene after their big "Mexico" fight, Ennis hugs Jack from behind and in the SS it says that it was because Ennis would "not then" embrace him face to face. I took this to mean that although Ennis felt very deeply for Jack, he couldn't quite reconcile himself to kiss him. That scene in front of the camp fire looks like they are well into their relationship and Ennis isn't spending the night because he says "See you in the morning". What do other people think? Is my timeline all confused?
I took it to mean that he wouldn't embrace him face to face just to show love and affection without there being an opportunity for making love. You know, he would kiss and hold him when they were in a situation where making love was going to follow, whether it was outside, in the tent or whatever. But not just come and hold him and look into his eyes and show the true love that he was feeling for Jack. We know he felt it, but he couldn't show it. I think he was too embarrassed and still trying to hide it. That's why when he does hug Jack just for the sake of it, it's so important to Jack, and he cherishes it, even though he's been held and kissed before by that time. Even if it was from behind. It was Ennis showing his real and sexless love, - and that's what Jack.....remembered, and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand... oh, don't start me off! :\'(
That's why that flashback scene affects me so... it's what he's telling Jack with that embrace, and Jack understands it.....and looks after him so hopeful and happy, and in love...<^( Oh here I go again! :\'(
your posts are so beautiful, they make me wanna cry and watch this scene again and again and again (like I needed a reason). I think it was the whole idea of the tough, closed, restrained Ennis, finally surrendering to his need and desire that really got me good. and how they were so gentle with each other and really made love that night, so much more than sex. too beautiful for words.
I don't know if this has been discussed before but I wonder if the SNIT (where we first see them kiss) was the night after the FNIT? In the heart-melting flashback scene after their big "Mexico" fight, Ennis hugs Jack from behind and in the SS it says that it was because Ennis would "not then" embrace him face to face. I took this to mean that although Ennis felt very deeply for Jack, he couldn't quite reconcile himself to kiss him. That scene in front of the camp fire looks like they are well into their relationship and Ennis isn't spending the night because he says "See you in the morning". What do other people think? Is my timeline all confused?
I took it to mean that he wouldn't embrace him face to face just to show love and affection without there being an opportunity for making love. You know, he would kiss and hold him when they were in a situation where making love was going to follow, whether it was outside, in the tent or whatever. But not just come and hold him and look into his eyes and show the true love that he was feeling for Jack. We know he felt it, but he couldn't show it. I think he was too embarrassed and still trying to hide it. That's why when he does hug Jack just for the sake of it, it's so important to Jack, and he cherishes it, even though he's been held and kissed before by that time. Even if it was from behind. It was Ennis showing his real and sexless love, - and that's what Jack.....remembered, and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand... oh, don't start me off! :\'(
That's why that flashback scene affects me so... it's what he's telling Jack with that embrace, and Jack understands it.....and looks after him so hopeful and happy, and in love...<^( Oh here I go again! :\'(
I don't know if this has been discussed before but I wonder if the SNIT (where we first see them kiss) was the night after the FNIT? In the heart-melting flashback scene after their big "Mexico" fight, Ennis hugs Jack from behind and in the SS it says that it was because Ennis would "not then" embrace him face to face. I took this to mean that although Ennis felt very deeply for Jack, he couldn't quite reconcile himself to kiss him. That scene in front of the camp fire looks like they are well into their relationship and Ennis isn't spending the night because he says "See you in the morning". What do other people think? Is my timeline all confused?
I took it to mean that he wouldn't embrace him face to face just to show love and affection without there being an opportunity for making love. You know, he would kiss and hold him when they were in a situation where making love was going to follow, whether it was outside, in the tent or whatever. But not just come and hold him and look into his eyes and show the true love that he was feeling for Jack. We know he felt it, but he couldn't show it. I think he was too embarrassed and still trying to hide it. That's why when he does hug Jack just for the sake of it, it's so important to Jack, and he cherishes it, even though he's been held and kissed before by that time. Even if it was from behind. It was Ennis showing his real and sexless love, - and that's what Jack.....remembered, and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand... oh, don't start me off! :'(
That's why that flashback scene affects me so... it's what he's telling Jack with that embrace, and Jack understands it.....and looks after him so hopeful and happy, and in love...<^( Oh here I go again! :'(
Rosie, this is a wonderful way to look at that scene and the lines in the SS. I was interested, like welshwitch, in trying to figure out that timeline (since the DE was a flashback, where did it truly fit in the chronology of their time on the mountain?) but I like this take on it by Rosie and suddenly I don't have a compelling need to figure out the timeline...
I love thinking about this, that they were physically affectionate along with making love, but for Ennis just to go up and hug Jack (his way of saying I love you) wasn't something he was comfortable doing? Makes sense.
And speaking of hugs, though, the two great big ol' beautiful hugs we do see are so marvelous, which would prompt me to say that they were comfortable just hugging each other, whether having sex was in the immediate offing or not. (Hmmm... offing = nice word, as in, "gun's going off!")
Let's see if I can get this back on topic, Ennis entering the tent, SNIT. Nope, sorry. %&)
kathy
I know there was no words spoken in this scene, but if Jack could have verbalized his feelins when he first sees Ennis at the entrance to the tent? This has got to be my fav scene in the film. I LUV watching it. So Romantic seein Jack's dream come true for once. And what a dream. A shy Ennis Del Mar offering himself to you body and soul OMG what delicious fantasies when we fill in the blanks. A. Lee you big tease.
I would love to hear Jack's thoughts when he was lying on his back alone in the tent, and then when he suddenly saw Ennis in the enterance. His heart must've skipped a beat. And yet he knew right then and there what Ennis has come for and no words were needed. I can't say it enough times, this is the most beautiful love scene I've ever seen.
In the ss it doesn't happen, but it does say that they never talked about the sex and that I think makes perfecr sense. Ennis is inarticulate and uneasy with the situation, and Jack isn't articulate in the sense of analysing abstracts like emotions - I think they'd have eaten quietly and said very little. the surprising thing about the whole movie is how little is said throughout - shows the power of facial expressions and gestures and sensitive cinematography.
In the ss it doesn't happen, but it does say that they never talked about the sex and that I think makes perfecr sense. Ennis is inarticulate and uneasy with the situation, and Jack isn't articulate in the sense of analysing abstracts like emotions - I think they'd have eaten quietly and said very little. the surprising thing about the whole movie is how little is said throughout - shows the power of facial expressions and gestures and sensitive cinematography.
Very true . . . And when words are spoken, they mean even more because they are spoken so rarely. :\'(
this has to be in my top 2 favorite scenes :clap: there are hardly words exchanged but everything that we needed to know was explained :clap: Ennis wrestling again with his emotions by the fire so much going through his mind I think this was to me was finally Ennis really thinking about everything that went on the FNIT, his treatment of Jack, his true feelings of that he has fallen in love with Jack <^( and on how he was brought up and the things his insensitive jerk father forced him to see as a child and Jack with no shirt just waiting patiently knowing that Ennis would go in the tent, Ennis to me hasnt had anyone took care of him since maybe his mother? and here was Jack wanting to take care of him just like the offer of the loan and fishing pool Jack just wanted to take care of Ennis and wanted him to be happy <^( Ennis used his hat as his shield and avoiding eye contact at first as protection sure not if he should just give over to his feelings but Jack putting his arm on Ennis arm and taking his hat away it was disarming it let Ennis know hey it's ok to let me in, this is right and we have nothing to be ashamed of , and Ennis I believe I heard saying sorry for his behavior and attitude towards Jack after FNIT and Jack saying it's ok to me that was another example of Jack being able to tolerate Ennis anger and outburst and accept Ennis for who he is Ennis could be himself around Jack that he wasnt around other people and women like Alma and Cassie the whole thing from the lighting and Ennis just wanting to take in every part of Jack for the first time and just finally giving in to his love for Jack letting someone take care of him it all takes your breath away <^( and Jack clearly takes after his mom as a loving nurturing person he loved Ennis no matter what
Oh yeah, I feel the same way, I love Ennis entering the tent like he's "comin' a courtin'" his hat in his hand kneeling in front of Jack, still holding to the hat like some kind of sheild, until Jack let's him know it OK, relax you're with me now.
Ennis wants to know the "art of love", he's a student now, and Jack teaches him just that. How to touch, Jack carresses Ennis's face and Ennis learns how touch Jack's body, Jack teaches him to kiss, I don't think Ennis ever kissed Alma, it looked as if was the first kiss of his life, but Jack teaches him how to do that too
Ennis alread knows about sex, now Jack shows him about making love.
this has to be in my top 2 favorite scenes :clap: there are hardly words exchanged but everything that we needed to know was explained :clap: Ennis wrestling again with his emotions by the fire so much going through his mind I think this was to me was finally Ennis really thinking about everything that went on the FNIT, his treatment of Jack, his true feelings of that he has fallen in love with Jack <^( and on how he was brought up and the things his insensitive jerk father forced him to see as a child and Jack with no shirt just waiting patiently knowing that Ennis would go in the tent, Ennis to me hasnt had anyone took care of him since maybe his mother? and here was Jack wanting to take care of him just like the offer of the loan and fishing pool Jack just wanted to take care of Ennis and wanted him to be happy <^( Ennis used his hat as his shield and avoiding eye contact at first as protection sure not if he should just give over to his feelings but Jack putting his arm on Ennis arm and taking his hat away it was disarming it let Ennis know hey it's ok to let me in, this is right and we have nothing to be ashamed of , and Ennis I believe I heard saying sorry for his behavior and attitude towards Jack after FNIT and Jack saying it's ok to me that was another example of Jack being able to tolerate Ennis anger and outburst and accept Ennis for who he is Ennis could be himself around Jack that he wasnt around other people and women like Alma and Cassie the whole thing from the lighting and Ennis just wanting to take in every part of Jack for the first time and just finally giving in to his love for Jack letting someone take care of him it all takes your breath away <^( and Jack clearly takes after his mom as a loving nurturing person he loved Ennis no matter what
Ennis already knows about sex, now Jack shows him how to make love.
An important distinction, to be sure. The SNIT is the first time Ennis made love.
You right;SNIT is the first time Ennis made love,the same that FNIT was the first time he'd had sex.Being an important distinction,as you say,the similarity is that in both of them he has the same partner; the man who taught him how to make love in a physical and emotional way.And then,Ennis gets surrender to this reality,showing himself as tender and vulnerable as he can,as perhaps never more he'll show.
I think what makes FNIT really different from SNIT is that in the former, they were unsure about how the other felt and how would they react. Hence, you have the explosiveness born out of uncertainly. Of course, there is also the element of being their first time together, and that this was Ennis's first time, without a doubt.
The fact that things just happened the way it did made it especially awkward. Jack not being able to contain himself and taking Ennis's hand and all. In a way, it was probably better that he didn't overthink this one. Had he did, it probably never would have happened.
I agree Jack seemed to know when to make a move and when not to just like how instead of saying to Ennis flat out after the FNIT "arent you going to talk to me about last night and what happened?" but he went "see you for supper" with those big baby blues <^( I got the feeling that Jack was treading lightly all day and it was Ennis that started the convo with the "I aint queer, one shot deal, but the SNIT Jack let Ennis come to him I felt he took his arm and hat as somehow he knew Ennis wouldnt just walk in the tent ready to face the fact he has fallen in love and wanted to make love the whole scene felt calm to me
For sure...it's the most romantic "love scene" I've ever seen in any movie. Total, sweet surrender. <^( <^(
Yes, Jack certainly knew how to read Ennis. The FNIT and SNIT and the scenes between them attest to this. He knew that he had to keep Ennis comfortable at all cost, even at the risk of playing down his own emotions and desires. That was why the transition from FNIT to SNIT was much more "smooth" than some of us would have thought, don't you think? The transition had some very tense moments, but by and large, it came with very little dramatics.
THis certainly describes the SNIT. :)
Ennis already knows about sex, now Jack shows him how to make love.
I noticed that too sure there was some tension but there wasnt alot of going back and forth that you see with some straight movie couples which is from the opening to the end of the movie they are fighting arguing ::) but not this I enjoyed the pace of this movie alot everything into it was perfect the setting, the lighting, the scenic shots of canada, the music, the dialogue, what i'm tryin to say is this movie SHOULD HAVE BEEN BEST PICTURE! oops sorry had a flashback my bad ;D
Exactly. Everything was much more succinct and underplayed -- as if they iunderstood where the other was coming from. When Ennis entered the tent, I think all tension and doubt within then two of them simply melted away. SNIT was a kind of release for both of them.
Release from the tention after FNIT, but also an opening of a whole new world of physical love and mutual tenderness which was expectedly repressed in FNIT. <^(
Yes, I think this was an opening up to the joy of being in love. No thought of tomorrow. Only the moment mattered.
Unfotunately, "tomorrow" came too soon and too unexpected, cos of Aguirre. And those few months of the most beautiful love remained the most precious time of their lives. :\'(
I think Ennis thought that he could brush things aside when the time came, and I think that Jack was thinking that he can prolong it even after they came down from the Mountain. I think both miscalculated.That's right¡.Even if Ennis wished all the contrary and Jack was,somehow,fooling himself by thinking his lover will be open to a greater contact after leaving BBM.For me,both miscalculated,but also they were absoultely lack of communication in such an important moment of their lives.
I think Ennis thought that he could brush things aside when the time came, and I think that Jack was thinking that he can prolong it even after they came down from the Mountain. I think both miscalculated.
That's right¡.Even if Ennis wished all the contrary and Jack was,somehow,fooling himself by thinking his lover will be open to a greater contact after leaving BBM.For me,both miscalculated,but also they were absoultely lack of communication in such an important moment of their lives.
That's right¡.Even if Ennis wished all the contrary and Jack was,somehow,fooling himself by thinking his lover will be open to a greater contact after leaving BBM.For me,both miscalculated,but also they were absoultely lack of communication in such an important moment of their lives.
You're so right here tpe!
The lack of communication is in fact what led them through the sad and misfortunate lives. It also killed Jack (and me together with him :\'( ), but we should not forget that the author has marvelously prepared it. The communication was cut off after their wrestling on the mountain. Wrestling used to be an exchange of their masculine power and tenderness. This time it turned to be without tenderness from Ennis side. He was so devastated for leaving the mountain that he punched Jack who was all over him with loving embrace and compassion! At that moment all the communication was brutally interupted. Ennis felt sorry, but it didn't gave him a strength to apologize, on the contrary -he became even more closed! And my dear Jack tried to "invite" Ennis for the next year on the Brokeback, but the door was already shut.
Ennis was a tough and stuborn person, but Jack also didn't take all the chances with Ennis. He pulled back far too many times.
And I will never understand why Jack didn't give a lift to Ennis, cos we saw Ennis walk for a long road?? Also a lack of communication?
I think you are right here. While they were on the Mountain, a wordless communication seemed to have flowed sufficiently well between the two -- but things started to unravel starting with the fight before both came down.
What difference would it have made had one vocally told the other about his love. It may have frightened the other in the short term, but perhaps it would have opened things up for the better. All specualtion... But it is interesting to think about what could have been had they communicated truthfully before parting.
I always wonder, how well they understood their own feelings!? Was Jack really aware that it was love - especially in the moment when their love and their Brokeback adventure was so brutally interrupted. I am not so sure of it. Maybe if they had time to prepare, to expect the end, to contemplate about it. But no! Aguirre just sent them down without any previous preparation. Jack ( as you said) thought that they could continue their relationship which proved to be wrong, but he had no time to prepare his proposition to Ennis. Ennis, on the other side, was so shocked for leaving Brokeback that he acted abnormally - hit Jack for no good reason, hardly talked to him (after ALL they have been through together!!) and finally walked away to get a stomach crimp. I mean, Aguirre had killed all their possibilities, and destroyed all their chances to open up and to know how deeply they love each other. Therefore, the love statement at that point wasn't likely to be expected.
But I would've hoped to hear those words some years later...
I really think that both of them were in love before they went down the mountain. But I think Jack had already acknowledged it within him (I view the lasso scene symbolically, you see) whereas Ennis at that point didn't want to acknowledge it even with himself. There lies the difference between the two in love. That was why he was so very affected by the stay being cut short. He was unprepared to face how he truly felt.
I really think that both of them were in love before they went down the mountain. But I think Jack had already acknowledged it within him (I view the lasso scene symbolically, you see) whereas Ennis at that point didn't want to acknowledge it even with himself. There lies the difference between the two in love. That was why he was so very affected by the stay being cut short. He was unprepared to face how he truly felt.
Exactly¡.Ennis was unprepared to face his own feelings,and somehow unprepared also to cut their stay in the mountain.Because he knew that was meaning the end of their relationship,whereas Jack didn't know it,but he was always hoping-and surely thinking- there will be a continuation down BBM.Yes,this is the difference between their respective ways of being in love and feeling it from that time onwards.
I really think that both of them were in love before they went down the mountain. But I think Jack had already acknowledged it within him (I view the lasso scene symbolically, you see) whereas Ennis at that point didn't want to acknowledge it even with himself. There lies the difference between the two in love. That was why he was so very affected by the stay being cut short. He was unprepared to face how he truly felt.
Exactly¡.Ennis was unprepared to face his own feelings,and somehow unprepared also to cut their stay in the mountain.Because he knew that was meaning the end of their relationship,whereas Jack didn't know it,but he was always hoping-and surely thinking- there will be a continuation down BBM.Yes,this is the difference between their respective ways of being in love and feeling it from that time onwards.
I am with you here -they were in love after SNIT even. Love was in the air and when they made love in the way they did, Love was there. Their games, wrestling and joking with each other just reinforced the relationship.
As for Jack - I am not sure if he would have qualified their feelings as Love at that moment. He was also young, innocent, not so experienced to recognize what they really have and what they felt for each other. But surely, if Ennis opened, Jack was more than willing to stay with him at that very moment.
PS: I never thought of it but lasso was very significante indeed, but the same as their lives it ended unhappy! :\'(
You know you've said something really important, Thomas, when it gets quoted so many times! :^^)
Tying this with the original topic, we see that Ennis taking the initiative to approach and apologize to Jack in SNIT marks IMO a moment when Jack's feelings (aside from his own) really mattered to Ennis. I would call it love.
Well, I hear no apology from Ennis there in SNIT! I believe that it's Jack who repeats 3 times "It's alright", not as a reply to an apology, but to ensure Ennis that what they were doing was alright, and that he can relax and enjoy being physical with Jack.
I believe that just Ennis entering the tent was significant enough! Nothing more was required to prove his love. He loved jack there. And Jack was waiting half-naked, he had already proved it! <^(
However,I think that Ennis apologises-his "I'm sorry" is difficulty heard-for being so rude with Jack in the morning in an emotional sense,and even because he was too rude also in a physical one during FNIT.His head inclination after their kissing is a proof that he was kind of worried or ashamed for both situations.Of course,the fact he entered the tent and surrendered to Jack's wishes is significant enough to show his friend he accepted him as a lover.But,IMO,this is not incompatible with apologising,as a friend and as a person.the
Well, I hear no apology from Ennis there in SNIT! I believe that it's Jack who repeats 3 times "It's alright", not as a reply to an apology, but to ensure Ennis that what they were doing was alright, and that he can relax and enjoy being physical with Jack.
I believe that just Ennis entering the tent was significant enough! Nothing more was required to prove his love. He loved jack there. And Jack was waiting half-naked, he had already proved it! <^(
However,I think that Ennis apologises-his "I'm sorry" is difficulty heard-for being so rude with Jack in the morning in an emotional sense,and even because he was too rude also in a physical one during FNIT.His head inclination after their kissing is a proof that he was kind of worried or ashamed for both situations.Of course,the fact he entered the tent and surrendered to Jack's wishes is significant enough to show his friend he accepted him as a lover.But,IMO,this is not incompatible with apologising,as a friend and as a person.
the
I really don't like to oppose here, but Ennis don't move his lips, not a little bit, the voice is Jack's (all 3 "it's alright" are spoken by a same person), and Ennis is not an apologizing character. He didn't enter the tent to apologize. He was too vexed about everything that he wasn't thinking about the apology at all.
During FNIT he wasn't rude at all, maybe rough, but Jack gave the clear sign what he wants and he enjoyed every inch of Ennis' roughness ::) ! Even if it was painful.
What they really said in there during SNIT is very difficult to prove, so I won't oppose to this one any more. I'll just say that I'm 99% sure about this.
Another words said there are also Jack's who says: "Come on..." just before kissing Ennis! (^)
Listening with the same care-and high volume-than the "I love you" of the shirts scene,one can heard Ennis saying "I'm sorry"... ^^) .You're right,Ennis is not the apologising kind,but even so,in this very moment,the same than he felt he had to sureender somehow to Jack in a physical sense,he felt also that he had to apologise before him in an emotional sense.He didn't need to say anything and the mere action of entering the tent speaks for themselves,you're right again...
But there were some "little behaviour conduct" that IMO had to be "forgiven" with words,not only with this fact;Ennis maybe wasn't rude in FNIT,but well,let's say that he wasn't too delicate either ¡ >:D .But I guess his way of "exploding" before some sexual tension situation-very logical,on the other hand...-,hadn't been exactly the same that Jack would have wished-more foreplay,let's say again,for what Ennis wasn't prepared still...-.Nor his behaviour the morning after and when Jack was going up to the mountain to talk,one more time not exactly the same than this last hoped.I think,in sum,that-even if the simple fact of entering the tent was enough-Ennis apologise makes sense in this concrete moment.JMHO.
Listening with the same care-and high volume-than the "I love you" of the shirts scene,one can heard Ennis saying "I'm sorry"... ^^) .You're right,Ennis is not the apologising kind,but even so,in this very moment,the same than he felt he had to sureender somehow to Jack in a physical sense,he felt also that he had to apologise before him in an emotional sense.He didn't need to say anything and the mere action of entering the tent speaks for themselves,you're right again...
But there were some "little behaviour conduct" that IMO had to be "forgiven" with words,not only with this fact;Ennis maybe wasn't rude in FNIT,but well,let's say that he wasn't too delicate either ¡ >:D .But I guess his way of "exploding" before some sexual tension situation-very logical,on the other hand...-,hadn't been exactly the same that Jack would have wished-more foreplay,let's say again,for what Ennis wasn't prepared still...-.Nor his behaviour the morning after and when Jack was going up to the mountain to talk,one more time not exactly the same than this last hoped.I think,in sum,that-even if the simple fact of entering the tent was enough-Ennis apologise makes sense in this concrete moment.JMHO.
I think Ennis was above all clumsy and awkward in FNIT -- even though he needed no instruction manual. We see a hint of that same clumsiness/awkwardness when he enters the tent, correct? It is part of his charm...
Yes,that's right.Maybe "rude" wasn't the right word,anyway...But his behaviour during FNIT wasn't completely what Jack hoped; I'm speaking about the way,nor the fact itself.
Yap, maybe Jack didn't want Ennis to be so rough, but he took what he could have. And he prepared for the second step, a day later. ::)Of course,he was... ::) But I guess he looked for and wished more foreplay,more kissing,something what Ennis wasn't prepared then for...
Of course,he was... ::) But I guess he looked for and wished more foreplay,more kissing,something what Ennis wasn't prepared then for...
Yes,that's right.Maybe "rude" wasn't the right word,anyway...But his behaviour during FNIT wasn't completely what Jack hoped; I'm speaking about the way,nor the fact itself.
I don't think that he expected anything like that in FNIT. He wasn't even sure if he's going to get a punch in the middle of his beautiful face! :)
It was like a lottery! Try something and see what you can get. And the thing he got was more than enough for the first time, I think! ::)
I suspect that in FNIT, Jack was a bit taken by surprise at being flipped. Personally, I interpreted his unbuckling as a sign of an initial intention to play a more active role. Just my opinion, of course...
But in the SNIT, when Ennis enters the tent, it is the opposite -- Jack pretty much knew that Ennis would give in, and so he was more confident and better prepared for what was to follow. His more active role in SNIT is worthy of note...
I suspect that in FNIT, Jack was a bit taken by surprise at being flipped. Personally, I interpreted his unbuckling as a sign of an initial intention to play a more active role. Just my opinion, of course...
But in the SNIT, when Ennis enters the tent, it is the opposite -- Jack pretty much knew that Ennis would give in, and so he was more confident and better prepared for what was to follow. His more active role in SNIT is worthy of note...
Yes,me too...But I tend to interpret his unbuckling as a sign of "playing" a little more before; I see this the more active role as a way of behaving himself more in SNIT line,not in a sexual act itself necessarily.
Yes,me too...But I tend to interpret his unbuckling as a sign of "playing" a little more before; I see this the more active role as a way of behaving himself more in SNIT line,not in a sexual act itself necessarily.
Jack had the opportunity to get up and refuse Ennis in FNIT. But he didn't. In fact he was waiting impatiently for Ennis... :P
I doubt that he ever hoped for Ennis to play a passive role. In fact, as I see it there were no defined expectations in FNIT except of sexual enjoyment, one way or the other. Jack had initiated things and waited for the answer, ready to take any answer from Ennis. I don't think that he would expect Ennis being so closed and stiffed, could pay a passive role there.
SNIT is a different story and once MPJ said that she could see Ennis in passive role there, as entering the tent he already surrendered. Well, I have to admit that maybe I could consider this possibility. Maybe... :-\\
Ennis was too sexy when entering the tent, for the record! :d)
(t)
Well, we shouldn't forget that Jack was more experienced than Ennis (who was a virgin) and very often, the more experienced one usually takes a more active role (not absolute, though.) The point is that there is more probable cause to expect Jack to take the active role in FNIT, had he not been completely surprised by Ennis taking matters into his own hands -- figurateively and literally.
Well, I know that you are more experienced in this matter... as a matter of fact I hadn't got a clue about this kind of physical relationship, but I can tell only what I feel. And I feel that Ennis would never play a passive role in FNIT. Who knows, maybe he also wanted the foreplay or tenderness, but he was not able to face Jack, and to face his own desire. So he flipped his desire on the other side and made it easier to get what he wanted.
On the other hand - surrender to be a passive role would mean that he was a queer, and "he wasn't a queer"! I believe that a passive role is more about "being a queer" than an active role, and I mean not only in his mind but generally! This is my opinion, which is not necessarily correct... :s)
I thought that his "insisting" on the active role was more about a sense of unfamiliarity with playing the pasive part. In a way, it was probably "easier" for him to think in terms of an active partner. Any gratification one gets from the passive role is usually less direct. The active role is a more literal "translation" of "getting off" and the standard male role as penetrator in heterosexual sex.I suppose it was easier because the grasp between the man-a masculine man-and a "queer" was greater and deeper if he took the active role and,so,his self-acceptation and the acceptation itself of what he felt was greater too in this case.
I suppose it was easier because the grasp between the man-a masculine man-and a "queer" was greater and deeper if he took the active role and,so,his self-acceptation and the acceptation itself of what he felt was greater too in this case.
Yes. The active role was perhaps less "problematic" in the case of Ennis. Mentally, he probably used it as a form of justification -- that he was not queer.
That's it¡ For him,being the passive role-in a physical way,because he was so more than once in an emotional or psychical way...-was a further step to the "queer" condition.Even,it could make him closer to a feminine condition; as a matter of fact,a man can be active in the same way both with a man or a woman.
That was my point exactly when I said that being a passive is more about being queer, which Ennis denied ti himself. And also that was one of the reasons why in another thread i said that I couldn't see him on his four.
Anyway, I scan accept now that maybe in some special circumstances, during years, Jack got the opportunity to play active and to have a balanced relationship. <^(
This is actually an attitude common in certain segments of the gay population. They even have special names/terms for this... Of course, Ennis had definite ideas about queerness, and whatever they were, he didn't see fit to apply any of it to himself.. To apply it to Jack was perhaps a self-defense mechanism?
I think that it is even a little funny how he was excluding himself from being a "queer" although he was emotionally and sexually mad about a man for years. Maybe he wasn't gay at all, but because of that fear he denied himself the only thing he ever wanted. :(
I think fear had a lot to do with his use of the word "queer". And yes, it was because of this fear that he denied himself for so long. The beginning of the SNIT was one of the rare instances when he forgot this fear. I would bet that "queerness" never entered his mind at that moment.
So true! Baby Tammy once posted a true story about two guys (Dan and Richard) who also began their affair in the tent as a fifteen year old boys just in the year of the reunion kiss. The story is very sad and it gave me a hard time for days, but the main point is Richard's words after they completely became crazy about each other : "We heard some story about queers, but this wasn't that!" So, when love knocked at the door, all the "queer" stories were applied only to others, but not to ones who were in love.
It is the same with Ennis. His yearning for Jack that night was so powerful that "queerness" didn't even touch his aura. It was a pure love and lust that led him to the tent and nothing could spoil it. <^(
Clearly, Ennis made a distincion between homosexual acts and queerness. But I wonder sometimes whether this distinction included in it a recognition of AFFECTION and not just the sexual act. THis is clearly what distinguishes FNIT and SNIT. In SNIT, the emotion AND the act are both undeniable.
I am not sure if Ennis made a distinction between homosexual acts and queerness. Had he done it, would he have been so afraid of the sweet life??
Also, his point of view about the essence, about the main reason for their relationship is not clear. What did he think about it, what is it? I'm not sure if I had been on this matter before, but now when I think about it - really what was he thinking? For him it was "this thing" -something he couldn't explain and he was afraid of! Cos he knew that it can overcome him in any moment!
He must have made the distinction. He didn't consider himself a queer, correct? But he engaged in homosexual acts...
Hm... this is also a good point, but how did he feel about it? He's not queer, but he is doing it with a man... How did he explain it to himself? What was the distinction in his mind??
Hm... this is also a good point, but how did he feel about it? He's not queer, but he is doing it with a man... How did he explain it to himself? What was the distinction in his mind??
Good question...maybe he just knew that he wanted Jack & no one else; not that they were "queer".
People often do things simply because THEY WANT TO, then later, they feel guilty and have to rationalize (make sense of) the reasons why. The truth of "I wanted to" is just too hard to face, so people just put it out of their minds.
Ennis went into that tent because he WANTED TO. He met up with Jack after 4 years because he WANTED TO. He went on camping trips with Jack because he WANTED TO
Sadly, he never really owned up to that truth.
In real life, people have devised many ways/excuses to justify this. For example, some people think that only bottoms can be rightfully considered queers and that tops are not...
Do you think that Ennis defend his homosexual act in that way? - I'm top, so only Jack is queer. :s)
I don't think Ennis ever really THOUGHT about what he did with Jack. He said he wasn't queer and never gave it another thought. I think he was so twisted up with fear and guilt that he couldn't really understand (until after Jack died) what he really felt.
Psychotherapist M. Scott Peck, tells the story about one of his patients in his book "The Road Less Travelled." The parents of a young married woman (she was in her mid-20s) engage Dr. Peck to help their daughter. Her husband had brought her to live with her parents because he did not know what was going on and he could not help her. She had been a pretty and outgoing young woman, but now she spent every waking hour PRAYING. She barely ate, wouldn't bathe or clean herself, wouldn't change out of her pajamas and WOULD NOT go outside.
Dr. Peck worked with the woman for a few months. The woman had been married about two years to a husband selected by her parents. She had a strong religious upbringing. She had dated only the men her parents approved of and was a virgin when she married.
After a couple of years of marriage the woman realized that she didn't really like/love/care for her husband and she CONSIDERED leaving him. She saw a man she had dated briefly and CONSIDERED what it might be like to be married to him instead of her husband. She never actually talked to the other man, she didn't date him, only CONSIDERED divorce or an extramarital affair.
Her GUILT from just CONSIDERING other possibilities caused her so much distress that all she could do was PRAY.
Sometimes the difference between what WE WANT and what WE THINK WE SHOULD WANT is so painful that it can paralyze us.
Ennis wasn't stupid, but he didn't have much education. Also, he didn't have ANYONE he could talk to about his feelings. Alma? NO. His brother or sister? NO. A clergyman? NO. A therapist? So he stayed paralyzed and in pain.
jesseanne21 ^f^
I understand what you want to say, but Ennis, the same as the young woman from your story surely gave their "sin" a thought.
In SS during motel scene Ennis asked Jack (and himself): "Do you think that I am... I mean I can't be. We both have wives and....."
So, I think that he gave it a lot thought cos if not, it would've been much easier for him, right? I think that it was in some subconscious level all the time, tearing him apart and as you said paralyzing him to make one step more and embrace Jack's offer for sweet life. :(
Still, how did he explain it to himself? And control it during 20 years? :s) Still not 100% clear...
I think the thoughts would come up often, but they were very painful for him so he would push it from his mind. He could never see himself as homosexual, so he just ignored it. He justified his behavior (I can't be...We both have wives) and kept doing what he wanted to do (be with Jack).
A LOT of people do this. They just ignore the painful realities in their lives. In some ways, this is how some people are able to cope with the pain in their lives.
We here on this forum spend a lot of time thinking about and analyzing the story/movie, but do we spend as much time thinking about and analyzing our own lives? I doubt it.
Ennis was in a lot of pain. But neither of the solutions to end his pain (1. Live the sweet life with Jack; 2. Live his life without Jack) were acceptable to him. So, he couldn't fix it, so he just had to stand it.
Do you think that Ennis defend his homosexual act in that way? - I'm top, so only Jack is queer. :s)
I don't think Ennis ever really THOUGHT about what he did with Jack. He said he wasn't queer and never gave it another thought. I think he was so twisted up with fear and guilt that he couldn't really understand (until after Jack died) what he really felt.
Psychotherapist M. Scott Peck, tells the story about one of his patients in his book "The Road Less Travelled." The parents of a young married woman (she was in her mid-20s) engage Dr. Peck to help their daughter. Her husband had brought her to live with her parents because he did not know what was going on and he could not help her. She had been a pretty and outgoing young woman, but now she spent every waking hour PRAYING. She barely ate, wouldn't bathe or clean herself, wouldn't change out of her pajamas and WOULD NOT go outside.
Dr. Peck worked with the woman for a few months. The woman had been married about two years to a husband selected by her parents. She had a strong religious upbringing. She had dated only the men her parents approved of and was a virgin when she married.
After a couple of years of marriage the woman realized that she didn't really like/love/care for her husband and she CONSIDERED leaving him. She saw a man she had dated briefly and CONSIDERED what it might be like to be married to him instead of her husband. She never actually talked to the other man, she didn't date him, only CONSIDERED divorce or an extramarital affair.
Her GUILT from just CONSIDERING other possibilities caused her so much distress that all she could do was PRAY.
Sometimes the difference between what WE WANT and what WE THINK WE SHOULD WANT is so painful that it can paralyze us.
Ennis wasn't stupid, but he didn't have much education. Also, he didn't have ANYONE he could talk to about his feelings. Alma? NO. His brother or sister? NO. A clergyman? NO. A therapist? So he stayed paralyzed and in pain.
Perhaps... It is not uncommon, actually.
Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."
He put himself clearly out of "those boys".
Yes,this is something that has always cached my attention...For me,it's also a clear proof that Ennis spent half his life denying his feelings and his way of living them.He wasn't "one of these boys like Jack",but I wouldn't say so clearly that this "being outside" was due to be on top or not.It was mainly a kind of being out of this so feared denomination of "queer".
Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."
He put himself clearly out of "those boys".
Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?
Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?
We can not know exactly, but obviously for him there was a difference between him and Jack! Even if we say that he was only using it as a weapon to hurt Jack, still- he had something on his mind to say such a hurting words to Jack, who, on the other hand would never hurt him in the same way.As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.
We can not know exactly, but obviously for him there was a difference between him and Jack! Even if we say that he was only using it as a weapon to hurt Jack, still- he had something on his mind to say such a hurting words to Jack, who, on the other hand would never hurt him in the same way.
As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.
SO do you both think that Ennis thought that there was an effeminacy in Jack that was alien to him? I also tend to wonder whether Ennis simply made the distinction just to wound Jack's feelings.If I haven't understood badly,what you say in your second paragraph is more or less what Loreen and me meant...(if I'm wrong,sorry): Ennis had too hidden feelings,even for himself,as not being annoyed for Jack's "boldness" and,even,greater exhibition of his homosexuality.For him,I think it was as if Jack made too much a "queer" role,meanwhile he was the "normal"man,disguised as straight and hidden in his masculine appearance.Nevertheless,in this very moment,I really tend to believe that it was only a "smoke curtain"-do you say it so?-to avoid talking about "the sweet life together" Jack seemed to begin with his"I did once".
I personally begin to think more and more that it was Jack's greater openness and acceptance of that side of his nature that annoyed and disturbed Ennis -- enough for him to make such a distinction between himself and Jack...
SO do you both think that Ennis thought that there was an effeminacy in Jack that was alien to him? I also tend to wonder whether Ennis simply made the distinction just to would Jack's feelings.
I personally begin to think more and more that it was Jack's greater openness and acceptance of that side of his nature that annoyed and disturbed Ennis -- enough for him to make such a distinction between himself and Jack...
Maybe the evidence for this is when Ennis was confronting Jack in FC and said "I've heard what they got in Mexico for the boys like you..."
He put himself clearly out of "those boys".
Was Ennis specifically referring here to passives, I wonder?
As Loreen says,we can't know it for sure,but I tend to agree with her words when she says that Ennis made a difference between them for the simple fact of not showing his feelings for another man in such a clear way as Jack.It's like this gay that goes to the "Gay Pride Parade" and this other who hide who he really is;does this mean that the first one is "more gay" or,better said,that the other isn't?.I think Ennis believed that his doubts and denials were a kind of not being like Jack,more open in his feelings,but also in his acceptance of his homosexuality.
Besides this,I also believe that in this moment,Ennis needed to make a difference between the both of them by trying to avoid Jack's attack;he asked him if he had gone to Mexico just when Jack was saying that he had a better idea to be together once.It seems that this has nothing to do with these answer,at the beginning;but IMO,Ennis felt hurt somehow,so he had to "counter attack" with the only weapon he had then;feeling much more "manly" than Jack.Ennis was complicated indeed ¡.
I don't think that Jack was effeminate at all, and maybe Ennis also didn't think it in that way. But Jack's way of accepting himself as a man in love with another man was the huge difference from Ennis's idea of himself.
Now when you ask, I believe that Jack being so open about his feelings, so brave in fighting for his man's love, not caring for others' opinion, made Ennis even more paranoid! I suppose that, had Jack being more private about his feelings, Ennis would've felt more comfortable about it!
That is surely one of the reasons why he said "boys like you" - boys who openly wants to live with another guy! The timing of this statement (after Jack mentioned his past tense proposal for a common life) shows that Ennis deliberately wanted to hurt Jack!
Also Ennis thought - if he wants to be with me so badly, maybe he's also doing it with other guys. Therefore he said: Ever been to Mexico, Jack?
Very sad and hurtful scene! :\'( At the same time very complicated....
Very interesting, Thomas -- I never thought of this, but it certainly makes sense. So it wasn't necessarily Ennis accusing Jack of being queer without including himself in that group, but that he wasn't a passive or bottom, as he was saying Jack was.
However, even though I don't have an abundance of inside information about gay men's relationships, and this probably says more about me than about any "reality" of Ennis and Jack, but I am of the belief that they came to be both with each other, top/bottom, whatever. I know there might be some amount of inclination one way or the other, but after 20 years, I doubt that Ennis could stand there and call Jack a "boys like you" meaning bottom, when he must have indulged in that himself during all those years.
So maybe he did just mean queer, as in more openly or overtly queer, or queer with more than one man.
kathy
That is true. But I also wonder whether Ennis harbored any hidden resentment of Jack's seeming acceptance of who he was -- an insecurity, perhaps? Perhaps we also glimpse a bit of the insecurity when he sheepishly enters the tent during SNIT. Would Ennis have been slightly envious of Jack's greater certainty?
This makes sense to me. Pehaps it was Jack's openness and acceptance after all that grated on Ennis's nerves. And as I said in my previous post, perhaps Ennis secretly resented jack's openness...
Hm... when entering the tent (which is the topic here :)) Ennis still didn't think about their relationship so much in the queerness light. Sure he did, but the open area of the mountain scattered his fear and any kind of resentment. The night was young as well as their love, and he didn't give it much thought, IMO. He just jump into the love!
In the later years when Ennis had enough time in Riverton to contemplate about two of them, some things just inequitable shadowed others, that is - his fears overcome his love. And then we have his attempt to distinguish himself from Jack and spoke it out loud to justify his own mistakes during the years.
Well, as he outlined in the short talk with Jack right beofe SNIT, Ennis had every intention that this relationship would not be permanent -- perhaps this was enough for him to justify his actions as not making him queer.
Maybe in his mind it was enough at the time, coz the circumstances on the Brokeback were favorable for their love. Within the walls of society things worsen.
Exactly.
Perhaps it is Ennis's attempt of having his cake and eating it too, as the saying goes...
But he almost choke on thatcherrycake...
;D Well, let's just say that it was a hard cake to ingest/swallow. ;)
Even after they had agreed upon the temporary nature of the arrangements, it is interesting to see Ennis seemingly so reluctant to enter the tent. Was he too shy to show how much he wanted it? Or was a part of him genuinely repulsed by his on strong desires?
;D Well, let's just say that it was a hard cake to ingest/swallow. ;)Even after they had agreed upon the temporary nature of the arrangements, it is interesting to see Ennis seemingly so reluctant to enter the tent. Was he too shy to show how much he wanted it? Or was a part of him genuinely repulsed by his on strong desires?
I think it is a mixture of feelings and reactions,as almost always in Ennis case...As always,he felt attracted but repulsed,shy to show it but in a rush willing...
*o) A cake? a cherry?...I thought we were speaking about another kind of fruit...OK, shut up ¡. :-X
I don't think that Jack was effeminate at all, and maybe Ennis also didn't think it in that way. But Jack's way of accepting himself as a man in love with another man was the huge difference from Ennis's idea of himself.
Now when you ask, I believe that Jack being so open about his feelings, so brave in fighting for his man's love, not caring for others' opinion, made Ennis even more paranoid! I suppose that, had Jack being more private about his feelings, Ennis would've felt more comfortable about it!
That is surely one of the reasons why he said "boys like you" - boys who openly wants to live with another guy! The timing of this statement (after Jack mentioned his past tense proposal for a common life) shows that Ennis deliberately wanted to hurt Jack!
Also Ennis thought - if he wants to be with me so badly, maybe he's also doing it with other guys. Therefore he said: Ever been to Mexico, Jack?
Very sad and hurtful scene! :\'( At the same time very complicated....
I think these are very good insights, Loreen.
I have to admit that i wasn't sure if Ennis was saying that FNIT was "one shot thing" or their relationship altogether on Brokeback.
I assume that he was shy (I know that I would be! ::) )
I think it is a mixture of feelings and reactions,as almost always in Ennis case...As always,he felt attracted but repulsed,shy to show it but in a rush willing...
*o) A cake? a cherry?...I thought we were speaking about another kind of fruit...OK, shut up ¡. :-X
I think that in an old discussion about this, someone convinced me that it referred to the relationship for the entire summer. ;)
Hm... possible. At first i thought that it refers only to FNIT.
So you also thought that he was unwilling to show how much he really eanted, it, correct? I did think part of the shyness was the fear of appearing to be too eager. But I do admit that part of it must also have been some remorse at his rather curt treatment of Jack right after FNIT.
I thought cherry was the right fruit. ;)
I think that the very entering the tent showed that he was eager! He didn't have to jump in the tent or run into the tent. The very intention that he had to go to Jack was pretty much clear enough. And the reluctance would be normal even for much more "normal" people and relationship than Ennis and his love for other man was (in his head).
He just did it for the first time in his life.... and damn! %&) He did it with a man! And he wanted more.... sure he was shy, but extremely eager to go for more, otherwise his shame would have won over his wish. But it didn't! ^-^ And there we go.... SNIT happened..... <^(
I agree tpe - it was the cherry cake! All the way through.... :P
I think this was also my original position. :)
But we somehow sense that he was trying to hold himself back all the time, correct? Even when Jack started kissing and touching him, he could barely let go...
Yes :P... uh... yummy... :d)
Give me a moment .... (t) (t) (t)
OK!
Ennis was so innocent(unlike some others here), it was probably his first real kiss in his life... I don't expect much more of him there. Especially coz he was just about to willingly and soberly make love with a man... I think that it wasn't easy to him.
All his movements and facial expression showed how much he wanted and needed that physical love with Jack, but expectedly with a certain restrains which were probably thoroughly dead after that nigh! ;)
This is a good point. Perhaps it was indeed his first kiss. I wonder if he ever kissed Alma... Sounds hard to believe that you would never have kissed someone you are about to marry, but with Ennis, it could be possible...
I think that in an old discussion about this, someone convinced me that it referred to the relationship for the entire summer. ;)
I think that the very entering the tent showed that he was eager! He didn't have to jump in the tent or run into the tent. The very intention that he had to go to Jack was pretty much clear enough. And the reluctance would be normal even for much more "normal" people and relationship than Ennis and his love for other man was (in his head).
He just did it for the first time in his life.... and damn! %&) He did it with a man! And he wanted more.... sure he was shy, but extremely eager to go for more, otherwise his shame would have won over his wish. But it didn't! ^-^ And there we go.... SNIT happened..... <^(
I agree tpe - it was the cherry cake! All the way through.... :P
I didn't see Ennis's hesitation as any reluctance, but only nervousness. I would be nervous if I were him. Have another smoke or something, mess with the fire...while he's on fire himself for Jack. Also, maybe he was just letting Jack have his space in there, get himself ready, made up their little love nest :)
kathy
I assume that he did kiss Alma, but not the real kiss, just a :-*.. ... ;D
This was a real kissing and the real sex he was about to participate in.... :i
I didn't think he was referring to FNIT; my sense was that he meant the summer "fling." Actually, on my first viewing, when I didn't know yet what was to come, I still didn't think he was referring to just FNIT. Why I think this is because he didn't say, "That was a one-shot thing..." He said, "It's a one-shot thing we got going here." Present tense, not past. Which made me think it was going to be an ongoing thing, or Ennis was willing for it to be, something like that. He sure didn't say, I ain't queer and you lay a hand on me and I'll kill you.
kathy
To be sure, Jack was his first, sexually speaking. Yes, I would say that if he ever kissed Alma before, it would have been of a different class altogether compared to the ones in BBM. ;)
ahhhhh, i'm a brand new brokie, it's only been a few months since the first time i saw this amazing movie, and only very recently that i've become completely obsessed with it... i'm like a kid in a candy store in here!!!! got lots of catching up to do, but after reading the first 3 pages of this thread, i feel like i need to take a break :P got the 2nd tent scene playing over and over in my head now, and i really can't think straight anymore.
i love it here already!
ahhhhh, i'm a brand new brokie, it's only been a few months since the first time i saw this amazing movie, and only very recently that i've become completely obsessed with it... i'm like a kid in a candy store in here!!!! got lots of catching up to do, but after reading the first 3 pages of this thread, i feel like i need to take a break :P got the 2nd tent scene playing over and over in my head now, and i really can't think straight anymore.
i love it here already!
Different class of kiss intensity and feelings... I think that after experiencing the kissing with Jack he thought of Alma's kiss as completely other (paler) dimension of physical relationship.
ahhhhh, i'm a brand new brokie, it's only been a few months since the first time i saw this amazing movie, and only very recently that i've become completely obsessed with it... i'm like a kid in a candy store in here!!!! got lots of catching up to do, but after reading the first 3 pages of this thread, i feel like i need to take a break :P got the 2nd tent scene playing over and over in my head now, and i really can't think straight anymore.
i love it here already!
I think it would be reflected perhaps by Ennis's attitude: he considered the marriage with Alma as an inevitability, whereas with Jack, it was all spontaneity...
I agree, but I reckon that it was far more than that. With Jack there was a whole rainbow of emotions, with Alma it was a protective tenderness. Can't compare!
Well, they are certainly different. But I would even say that prior to meeting Jack, Ennis must not have really reflected on love and what it reaslly means deep inside. That is what I mean by inevitability -- he accepted the marriage with Alma as a fact, and that his love for her was a given, without questioning or reflecting how he really felt deep inside.
Oh boy -- you're in the right place! Welcome.
kathy
ohhhhhhhhhh maybe i've just figured it out! Second Night In Tent ???????
LMAO! only took me 2 days, 3 hours, and 9 minutes ^*()
This is true! Marriage with Alma was arranged and had no need for a love base. With Jack he "only" had love and the beautiful development of it! <^(
He married Alma because he probably felt that he had to follow his brither's footsteps and that marriage was something one did as part of becoming a man.
In the case of Jack and the beginning of SNIT, he probably faced his feelings and desires for the very first time -- a sort of coming of age process on a very different level.
Yes,surely for Ennis marrying Alma was a further step in his "learning trip" to becoming a man;what's more,a man well seen for the society,following its rules and traditions doubtless.And more surely still,when entering the tent in SNIT this was the further step in his another and deepest "learning trip";the one of becoming himself and being accepted for himself too.Unluckily,this last was an endless trip...
As we were discussing recently before losing many of the most recent posts, I think that we were debating whether or not Ennis was consicously or subsconsciously thinking about the ramifications if he enetered the tent -- in the context of society at large, but more so in the context of his own fears and prejudices...
I believe that MPJ pretty much agreed with this and that loreen had a different view...
As we were discussing recently before losing many of the most recent posts, I think that we were debating whether or not Ennis was consicously or subsconsciously thinking about the ramifications if he enetered the tent -- in the context of society at large, but more so in the context of his own fears and prejudices...
I believe that MPJ pretty much agreed with this and that loreen had a different view...
Uh, that loreen - always have some different view! ^^)
;D
Well, yup! I thought that Ennis had the whole day after FNIT to think what happened between them and how "wrong" it is and how it's not socially acceptable. During the mountainside scene he stated that what they have is a one shot thing and that he wasn't a queer. In a way he agreed that they'll go on, and that it means nothing in the terms of his sexual preferences. IMO the most (if not all) of his social fears ended right there.
Also I believe that if he had any fears and prejudice before entering the tent, after entering he had none! The wish and his feelings for Jack were too strong in that moment.
*o) Thanks tpe for reviving all these great threads which I was afraid to jump into. It is most difficult to start, later would be easier. ^f^
Yes,that's right,Thomas¡ I agreed more or less in that Ennis before SNIT was the man afraid of the society rules and the consequences of breaking them who thinks over it all day long;the same than in FNIT was the man who released himself from these rules and consequences,even if for a little moment.In both cases,he had struggled with himself and with what these rules meant in the environment he has been raised;for this reason,the fact of entering into the tent is a kind of break these rules because in this struggle his feelings won...
Ennis entering into the tent is like Ennis entering into a new world and accepting other rules;but I also remembered that you and me had agreed in that this struggle kept on existing even already into the tent.The way he backs down before Jack's kiss means that he wasn't still prepared in that moment for a greater level of intimacy,in a more romantic way,than the simple sexual intercourse.And that,although these doubts lasted during a little time,the rest of his life was a great doubt in itself...
For me, of course, I think that the doubts and hesitations continued even after he entered the tent. But the significance of entering the tent (to me) was that he put himself in Jack;s hands, in spite of those fears and doubts. :)
Eniss alsiorefused to enter the tent before FNIT at first, but in the dawn, he finally entered, coz it was too cold. Did he refuse ONLY because he was drunk and lazy to get up, or he sensed something about Jack and was a bit afraid/cautious. :s)
The difference of course is that in FNIT, he was "forced" by the cold. IN SNIT, it was more deliberate.
I understand! My point was more about his refusal to enter before FNIT. Why he refused? Because he was lazy to lift up his bu**ock or, because he already sensed something about Jack and was afraid to enter the tent in a way!
I think he refused becuase he sort of knew that he was attracted to Jack, and wanted to make sure that nothing happened. ;)
My thoughts exactly! And even he was drunk, he was aware that something was going on between them. He probably even didn't know what was it, but he felt endangered. :i
I agree with you Loreen. In the short story, it states, 'both slept in the tent that first night' [on BBM]. But after getting to know Jack, Ennis, even though he was totally drunk, would not go into that tent with Jack until he was nearly frozen.
Exactly. By FNIT, Ennis knew that he was attractwed to Jack. In FNIT, there was kind of gut-reaction that kicked in -- making him act cautiously... As if he was not in total control of himself.
But SNIT was perhaps a step up. At that point, Ennis knew that they had done things. It was now a kind of caution that knew where things were headed. And in this regard, Ennis knew that he had some degree of control/responsibility over what was to happen next.
:)
He was afraid not of Jack but of himself. Good for him that he got frozen and "had" to enter?
Maybe not of himself, but of the growing feeling inside of him, which he couldn't explain nor completely accepted.
I think he was afraid of everything;of himself,for the point he was able to arrive in some feelings he clearly rejected,on the other side.Of the growing feelings inside of him,because he knew that he couldn't control them the way he had had all his life controlled up to that moment.And even of Jack,because he was the way to discover and grow these feelings up.
:)
He was afraid not of Jack but of himself. Good for him that he got frozen and "had" to enter?
Maybe he didn't exactly "know", coz Ennis didn't know many things for real, he mostly sensed things. So the same was in FNIT where he sensed something between them and decide to stay away until completely frozen.
In FNIT Jack's invitation was pretty simple and plain, but he covered his intentions there. In SNIT, Jack invited him without words in the more subtle way, but the invitation was more than obvious. And Ennis accepted also in more subtle way, but in his case also, things were pretty much obvious. He entered by his own will, accepting the invitation of Jack's naked torso and showing how much he really wanted Jack. So much so that all the other hold backs were forgotten in that moment of desire.
- the poor guy realized that he just wanted more and the some, that is all.
I would tend to think that by SNIT, he knew that he was attracted to Jack, but didn't articulate it in terms of a definite plan of action. And I do think that "sensing" is the same as "knowing", or being aware of it.
In SNIT, the person who made the choice was really Ennis -- by the simple act of entering the tent. But beyond thisd act, jack had to help Ennis out, if you know what I mean. Ennis still had a lot of inhibitions...
tpe, - you are right!, delmar had a taste ( yum!, yum!) and he wanted more of the honey cone.
When it comes to Ennis, I can't really say how much he really knew. I think that "sensing" and "knowing" is not the same ... that is- if my dictionary is accurate enough. I think that we can have some feeling about someone or something, but not to be exactly sure, not to have the clear picture about it. Only an innuendo in our heart and soul. To know something, we have to perceive all the facts and put them in the whole picture... well as long as it's possible when it comes to feelings.
Well, there is a subtle difference between sensing and knowing, although I think in terms of feeling and in the case of Ennis, he knew that he desired Jack. This really can't be proven anyway. But I should also note that desire can also be differentiated from love. Did Ennis love Jack at that point. Probably. But inhibitions hava a way of making people deny what they already know deep in their hearts.I like very much how you defined the role (nagative!!!!!!) of inhibitations. If love means : taking care of someone, letting someone to know us more than other people, respecting his/him, loving to spend time together and desire him/her - Ennis certainly loved Jack. IMO:-)
- i think cowboy delmar saw that TENT like an ice cream parlor:
"i wanna try that one, oh! yeah that one, can i have a taste of that one too... oh! damn! that one is sooo goood..."
Well, there is a subtle difference between sensing and knowing, although I think in terms of feeling and in the case of Ennis, he knew that he desired Jack. This really can't be proven anyway. But I should also note that desire can also be differentiated from love. Did Ennis love Jack at that point. Probably. But inhibitions hava a way of making people deny what they already know deep in their hearts.
I like very much how you defined the role (nagative!!!!!!) of inhibitations. If love means : taking care of someone, letting someone to know us more than other people, respecting his/him, loving to spend time together and desire him/her - Ennis certainly loved Jack. IMO:-)
- i think cowboy delmar saw that TENT like an ice cream parlor:
"i wanna try that one, oh! yeah that one, can i have a taste of that one too... oh! damn! that one is sooo goood..."
I like very much how you defined the role (nagative!!!!!!) of inhibitations. If love means : taking care of someone, letting someone to know us more than other people, respecting his/him, loving to spend time together and desire him/her - Ennis certainly loved Jack. IMO:-)
I believe that before SNIT he knew very well that he wanted Jack, but in the evening before FNIT?? I don't think so...
And (in my stupid romantic way) I believe that there was love around there... not very developed, but the seeds were in their hearts before anything happened between them. <^(
Well, as I said, his knowing that he wanted Jack before FNIT doesn't mean that he was willing to act on it, much less recognize it for what is was. Many times, we know something that we want but make excuses and justifications -- convincing ourselves that we really like this or that because of so and so. It doesn't change the fact that deep inside, we already KNOW that we like it. Expressing it out in the open or contemplating it head-on is another matter...
I don't remember where I read this..
THE THREE GREATEST MYSTERIES IN THE WORLD
AIR to birds
WATER to fish, and
MAN unto himself
One of the hardest things for human beings to accept is THE TRUTH (or reality). We each see the world through our own eyes and WE CHOOSE the lenses we look through.
Well, as I said, his knowing that he wanted Jack before FNIT doesn't mean that he was willing to act on it, much less recognize it for what is was. Many times, we know something that we want but make excuses and justifications -- convincing ourselves that we really like this or that because of so and so. It doesn't change the fact that deep inside, we already KNOW that we like it. Expressing it out in the open or contemplating it head-on is another matter...
I don't want to be tough on Ennis (like I often am), but I am not sure how much he understood altogether about wanting someone.I think Ennis was aware,or at least suspicious,that something was going to happen because he didn't want to enter into the tent in spite of the cold.This is IMO one of this "so Ennis" ambivalent situations we see sometimes in the movie; he wished that something happenned and,at the same time,he was afraid that this something could happen-surely also afraid of wishing it-.And,so,he suffered from the night cold without entering into the warmtn-climatological and human-of the tent,but at the same time,he didn't make anything to revive the bonfire;as a way to avoid and at the same time,provoke the situation he wished and feared;as I said formerly,"with or without you"...
Well, his reaction in FNIT when he just flipped Jack shows that he had pretty good idea how the things go, but was he really really aware of that situation in his mind before Jack took his hand to warm it up ::)? I am not sure... :s)
But, maybe you can convince me as you often do... ;D
-damn! ms. barcelona, you really went Universidad Carlos III de Madrid in this one. double ole's to ya for technical support.
I don't want to be tough on Ennis (like I often am), but I am not sure how much he understood altogether about wanting someone.
Well, his reaction in FNIT when he just flipped Jack shows that he had pretty good idea how the things go, but was he really really aware of that situation in his mind before Jack took his hand to warm it up ::)? I am not sure... :s)
But, maybe you can convince me as you often do... ;D
I don't want to be tough on Ennis (like I often am), but I am not sure how much he understood altogether about wanting someone.
Well, his reaction in FNIT when he just flipped Jack shows that he had pretty good idea how the things go, but was he really really aware of that situation in his mind before Jack took his hand to warm it up ::)? I am not sure... :s)
But, maybe you can convince me as you often do... ;D
I think Ennis was aware,or at least suspicious,that something was going to happen because he didn't want to enter into the tent in spite of the cold.This is IMO one of this "so Ennis" ambivalent situations we see sometimes in the movie; he wished that something happenned and,at the same time,he was afraid that this something could happen-surely also afraid of wishing it-.And,so,he suffered from the night cold without entering into the warmtn-climatological and human-of the tent,but at the same time,he didn't make anything to revive the bonfire;as a way to avoid and at the same time,provoke the situation he wished and feared;as I said formerly,"with or without you"...
Being convinced by other members is one of the best thing about this forum :)
And speaking seriously, I agree with MPJ and TPE. I love the way TPE's words of inhibitions and "knowing something deep in the heart doesn't mean acting on it" fit with MPJ's interpretation of Ennis's 'avoiding-provoking behavior" before FNIT.
I always look at Ennis and Jack through my own experiences and beliefs. I think we always look so at everything and everyone as we are not the ideals of neutrality. IMO, love came to Ennis long before FNIT. I assume that love to Jack could come to Ennis long before they both met. Meeting Jack was for Ennis only the chance for its fulfillment. Did he take it? That's another story.
I think Ennis was aware,or at least suspicious,that something was going to happen because he didn't want to enter into the tent in spite of the cold.This is IMO one of this "so Ennis" ambivalent situations we see sometimes in the movie; he wished that something happenned and,at the same time,he was afraid that this something could happen-surely also afraid of wishing it-.And,so,he suffered from the night cold without entering into the warmtn-climatological and human-of the tent,but at the same time,he didn't make anything to revive the bonfire;as a way to avoid and at the same time,provoke the situation he wished and feared;as I said formerly,"with or without you"...
Great post babe! O0
And reading it I think - don't we all have a little piece of Ennis in ourselves? Hesitating time-bomb! :i
Ennis entering the tent is of very high significance for alot of reasons..Ennis accepts the fact that he is drawn towards Jack and accepts that he needs and loves him ..I think Jack's patience pays off that day :)
When Ennis comes into the tent, I love his kinda shy yet affirmative look...It shows Jack what is going on in Ennis mind and they both emark on a joyous night which takes their relationship to the next level...
I do think that the scene is -- most of all -- an affirmation the what they feel is mutually shared, and that it was alright to express it openly to the other.Ya, there was no pretence or hiding then..They were just themselves
Ya, there was no pretence or hiding then..They were just themselves
It was very very important for Ennis to initiate this as Jack was mainly waiting for that.Before Ennis entered the tent, all Jack could think was what will happne next and all his thoughts were related to Ennis..Ennis initiation made Jack's and our hearts rejoice and he finally accepted even if only in front of Jack that he loves him...
Ya, there was no pretence or hiding then..They were just themselves
It was very very important for Ennis to initiate this as Jack was mainly waiting for that.Before Ennis entered the tent, all Jack could think was what will happne next and all his thoughts were related to Ennis..Ennis initiation made Jack's and our hearts rejoice and he finally accepted even if only in front of Jack that he loves him...
And we should note that the next scene -- showing them horsing around with each other -- is meant to reinforce the point that the floodgates were open and that they were being themselves when with each other (with or without the prying eyes of Aguirre). I think that there is a deliberate desire in this scene to echo the Walt Whitman of the Calamus poems.This is very true..When I watched that scene I was so happy...I was like...wow...Ennis is playing with Jack...That was so beautiful and they were so being themselves...I think this scene was very important and showed their comfort level as well as love...
This is very true..When I watched that scene I was so happy...I was like...wow...Ennis is playing with Jack...That was so beautiful and they were so being themselves...I think this scene was very important and showed their comfort level as well as love...
The SNIT made Ennis alive, to say the least... <^( <^( <^( <^(
Did any of you get the feeling that Ang Lee intended the "horsing around" scene to be interpreted as a kind of direct "consequence" or effect of the preceding scene? I think that the placement of these 2 scenes (one after the other) is very deliberate and was meant to suggest a kind of "cause and effect".Yes, I agree with u...It is the "Cause and Effect"...SNIT was taking their relationship to the next level and there was an unbreakable bond developed...Placing the "horsing around" scene after that complements the SNIT..The beautiful effect that it had on both and especially Ennis because he started playing with Jack...To see that coming from Ennis was amazing and out of the world as it showed that atleast on the mountains Ennis could throw away his inhibitions and be himself...The SNIT definitely played a catalyst in that...
Yes, I agree with u...It is the "Cause and Effect"...SNIT was taking their relationship to the next level and there was an unbreakable bond developed...Placing the "horsing around" scene after that complements the SNIT..The beautiful effect that it had on both and especially Ennis because he started playing with Jack...To see that coming from Ennis was amazing and out of the world as it showed that atleast on the mountains Ennis could throw away his inhibitions and be himself...The SNIT definitely played a catalyst in that...
Very much so. But then, for this to be interrupted by Aguirre immediately injects interference by the "outside world" into their idyllic discovery of their new relationship. Though they don't know that. Which is another interesting thing about the events of this story. But then, when Aguirre comes and sees Jack, he definitely seems to feel guilty when Aguirre looks up into the hills at Ennis. I'm sure he wondered if Aguirre knew something. Being the sweetheart that he is, and wise in the ways of Ennis, I'm sure he didn't tell Ennis about Aguirre's binoculars.Ya exactly, Ennis was being himself and he could be so as no one was judging him on the Mountains...That made things easy but for how long could they hide from the cluches of the world...The first hit of the real world at that time came from Aguirre..Jack definitely sensed that Aguirre knew something..The way he spoke to Jack said it all but Jack knew Ennis and his fears..Ennis would have got freaked out to the core if he knew that Aguirre knew..As u said Jack was wise and he was also sensitive towards Ennis and kept that to himself...
kathy
kathy
Yes, I agree with u...It is the "Cause and Effect"...SNIT was taking their relationship to the next level and there was an unbreakable bond developed...Placing the "horsing around" scene after that complements the SNIT..The beautiful effect that it had on both and especially Ennis because he started playing with Jack...To see that coming from Ennis was amazing and out of the world as it showed that atleast on the mountains Ennis could throw away his inhibitions and be himself...The SNIT definitely played a catalyst in that...
The "horsing around" cemented the fact that they had now accepted the relationship after SNIT.
Yes, there was no longer any pretense. They felt totally free on BBM. For Ennis, it was probably like a first taste of freedom.
Which is why entering the tent must have been an act of liberation for Ennis. I think it was the very first time he allowed himself to do what he truly desired.
Exactly¡.But coming back to his former life,meant to come back also to do onwards what he MUST do...
Which is why entering the tent must have been an act of liberation for Ennis. I think it was the very first time he allowed himself to do what he truly desired.
Yes, there was no longer any pretense. They felt totally free on BBM. For Ennis, it was probably like a first taste of freedom.
I quite like the way you said it tpe. before i found this forum, i always have these why/how/what/what if/may be/could be/most probably/etc. etc. etc. and here, i get to analyse all of them to come up to my own conclusion.
i am a little bit like ennis myself. its hard when you are so "fearful of" and bound by the societal confine. to me, being on that mountain is like a freedom to ennis, away from society eyes and whatsoever. entering the tent in SNIT must be a very difficult decision for ennis. whats with the horrifying incident when he was 9, knowing that the society would not approve of the relationship.
when he first met jack at aguirre's trailer, he was the quiet, uncommunicative ennis. but on that mountain, with jack's persona, he started to mellow down. he started talking (hence jack's "that's more words than the past two weeks"). he feels comfortable with jack. and jack has been his companion for the past couple of weeks.
when he was outside by the fire, he was at war with himself. half of him didn't want to go inside - for fear of the societal confine, but the other half of him wants to go in, because that was jack in the tent. jack that he knew, jack who has been his companion for the past couple of week, jack that he is comfortable with. jack who treated him like an equal. he feel accepted by jack.
and maybe thats what he always wanted, to be accepted. and jack has that. hence he choose to go into that tent in SNIT. well, that my opinion.
This is what I feel also. I really felt that at that point, Ennis was struggling within himself, knowing full well that there would be no turning back should he enter the tent. Even when he entered the tent, I sense an awkwardness in him that indicates that he has made the decisive step, but was unsure as to how best to proceed. Jack took it over from there...
yes. thats very true. and good thing that jack takes over. because as much as the decision was ennis's, he was so anxious and uncertain of what he should do next. the tentative steps that he took by entering the tent was too much for him. (and thats what makes him so adorable to me <^( )
Exactly. I think Jack understood this the moment Ennis entered the tent. It was as if Ennis was saying: Here I am. I am in your hands. It was a great display of trust, especially for Ennis. And I do beleieve that Jack's tenderness was a direct response to this expression of complete surrender.Exactly¡ I think that Jack understood from the very first moment the struggle that Ennis was having inside him between his wishes and his fears.And that the way he behave to calm Ennis anxiety and shyness is his answer to both this struggle and his surrender at the end.
Exactly. I think Jack understood this the moment Ennis entered the tent. It was as if Ennis was saying: Here I am. I am in your hands. It was a great display of trust, especially for Ennis. And I do beleieve that Jack's tenderness was a direct response to this expression of complete surrender.
Exactly¡ I think that Jack understood from the very first moment the struggle that Ennis was having inside him between his wishes and his fears.And that the way he behave to calm Ennis anxiety and shyness is his answer to both this struggle and his surrender at the end.
That's so beautiful, T. That's is very much what I see in those moments...
kathy
At first I couldn't accept the idea of mother-child relationship between them, but it is just the way it is - comforting and tender Jack and uneasy Ennis. <^(
And yes! We can see ourselves in both!
Well, I only meant to say that it evoked such images. I would not go so far as to say that their relationship was predominantly maternal. :)
Did you get the "weird" impression that that part of the SNIT looked very much like a mother comforting a child and putting him/her to sleep?
I think this and the DE are 2 of the outstanding scenes where we see such echoes in BBM. Ansd I think that they were very much intentional -- in order to evoke a similar feeling in us all: a feeling that all of us can connect to.
Well, I only meant to say that it evoked such images. I would not go so far as to say that their relationship was predominantly maternal. :)No,I wouldn't ever see their relationship as "maternal";neither as "paternal",precisely¡ >:D Speaking seriously,in the sense that Jack is comforting a somehow anguished Ennis,or a tender Ennis is caring for a half slept Jack,we can see a kind of mother-child relationship in both scenes.We have talked about the DE in another thread,and we share the idea,more or less,that Ennis is giving Jack the love both of them needed in the way he remembered having it from his own mother.And,at the same time,he's receving also this same love by remembering his few good and tender childhood memories.And yes,as all of us has been or are parents or children of someone,we can see ourselves reflected in them.
Well, maybe I overemphasized that, but I also didn't mean that it was predominantly maternal relationship! ::) :i
No,I wouldn't ever see their relationship as "maternal";neither as "paternal",precisely¡ >:D Speaking seriously,in the sense that Jack is comforting a somehow anguished Ennis,or a tender Ennis is caring for a half slept Jack,we can see a kind of mother-child relationship in both scenes.We have talked about the DE in another thread,and we share the idea,more or less,that Ennis is giving Jack the love both of them needed in the way he remembered having it from his own mother.And,at the same time,he's receving also this same love by remembering his few good and tender childhood memories.And yes,as all of us has been or are parents or children of someone,we can see ourselves reflected in them.
Ceertainly not! ;D
Still, the "materbnal" scenes are quite moving -- it's because it evokes something that we all identify and yearn for.
You know, in the part of the SNIT after the first kiss and when Ennis places his head on Jack's chest -- the feeling is less erotic and frankly a bit sexless for me. The over-arching feeling is that of tenderness.
I think the same can be said about the DE. In this aspect, they are both very similar.
The rest of SNIT is most certainly very sensual.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjakegyllenhaalfan.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fperformances%2Fbrokeback-mountain%2Fscreencaptures%2Fbrokebackmountain-257.jpg&hash=18f1f0a173c6b66f439c97d9e8aa9329825bc41a)
You know, in the part of the SNIT after the first kiss and when Ennis places his head on Jack's chest -- the feeling is less erotic and frankly a bit sexless for me. The over-arching feeling is that of tenderness.Yes,I know what you mean...Although I wouldn't define it like "less erotic or sexless",in this very moment tenderness is,of course,what prevails.The way Jack tries,and gets to,win Ennis fears and little resistance,by making him feel wished but also safe; the way Ennis finds a kind of shelter in his lover's chest;the way Jack kisses gently Ennis forehead...Aawwww¡. (t)
I think the same can be said about the DE. In this aspect, they are both very similar.
The rest of SNIT is most certainly very sensual.
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OMG! This is one of the most beautiful pics from the movie! (t) (t) (t)
I wouldn't call that part sexless (if you don't mind)... for me their whole relationship is the mixture of the most complex feelings and the sex/physical attraction. The prevalence can go to one side or the other, but for me is always the mixture, and that's what makes it so special.
I imagine the feeling in uneasy and scared Ennis when he leaned his face on Jack's chest and felt his skin.... (t) :P... sexless?? OMG! I can faint right now, don't mention him! ;D
Yes,I know what you mean...Although I wouldn't define it like "less erotic or sexless",in this very moment tenderness is,of course,what prevails.The way Jack tries,and gets to,win Ennis fears and little resistance,by making him feel wished but also safe; the way Ennis finds a kind of shelter in his lover's chest;the way Jack kisses gently Ennis forehead...Aawwww¡. (t)
You,Loreen,are also right in that there're a whole lot of feelings and sensations in this moment,the same that in all their relationship along the years,and in that it's this mixture what make it so complex and,at the same time,so fascinating.But in this concrete moment,tenderness is all around them;the rest is,yes,rather erotic IMO.
Yes, I wouldn't call that picture truly sexless -- but some of us may also say the same thing about the DE, correct? If you look at the picture without having scene the SNIT scene from the movie, there is a chance that you would think of it as something not really erotic, but something that really showed love.
Would you think that there is a "maternal" quality to that picture -- as in "mother" and child? It reminds me of certain paintings in that vein...
And also, I actually see Ennis's face as "trusting" more than uneasy or scared. Does this somehow make sense to you?
Hm... I think that DE was pretty much sexless as they didn't touch there at all... maybe it's not the best indicator, but gives me almost completely spiritual impression.
I agree that the picture without the previous and later of SNIT would seem rather sexless and "mother and child" alike, but not the motion picture. What I mean is that if we capture a moment it is one thing, but only a few second of their commotion shows lust and passion. IMO!
Still, I do agree (which I didn't before ::)) that their mother-child relationship is very emphasized there and it is so beautiful, and mixed with their youth passion is unspeakably moving!
As for Ennis- well, yes! "Trusting" would also be a proper word for it. What I wanted to express was his discomfort of making love for the first time... it is a bit scary (like the birdie! ;D), especially in the arms of man...
I think that what makes SNIT scene so beautiful this mixture of feelings they show and of sensations we can have by seeing it: both tenderness and lust,protection and surrender,sexy and sexless at the same time...It's IMO a rather sexy scene but shaded with this "maternal" sense of Jack calming Ennis fears,like a mother caring for her child when he's afraid by night and he can't sleep.It's,I repeat,all this mixture of feelings showed and provoked what gives it its beauty.
That is quite right -- SNIT is certainly very sexy -- but beautifully so.
We see Ennis's discomfort in his eyes and awkwardness the moment he enters the tent. Brilliantly acted, I must say. You can really say that he looks almost like a virgin about to make love for the very first time. I wouldn't exactly call FNIT "making love", you know... ;)
I have no doubt that part of Ennis's motivation to enter the tent was physical desire/lust. I had wondered how much of it was really this. I suspect that part of the motivation was also contriteness -- to show Jack that he was sorry, and that he really cared for him. And perhaps part of it was also an element of curiosity? That he put himself in jack's hands and see where it would go from there? It was certainly an education for Ennis --- to make love.
Oh yes! FNIT was 1,2,3 and over... but SNIT was the occasion when all went out - the cards were "on the table"! They had enough time to show- yes I want this and I want you, and this means a world to me! <^(
Jack having no shirt on was just too sexy for that matter,that it made all the experience much more sensual and erotic! <^( :P
I like this post! (t)
Maybe even not Ennis was aware of his reasons, but I think that you're right here! :)
It was like starting all over again -- but this time, the right way. :)
It is interesting to compare and contrast Ennis's entry into the tent at FNIT and the subsequent entry at SNIT. They mirror exactly what was to come right after. The first was abrupt and unpremediatated, while the other was meek/gentle/tender and thought-out.
And yes, that was a very sensual touch -- although I think the story mentioned that he was naked!
I believe that when we put all together, the details in the movie (e.g. the relation of FNIT and SNIT) were so perfectly arranged, that it all touched our hearts and made us slaves to this movie... well at least I speak for myself. (:)
Hm... I don't think that SNIT even exists in SS! Only FNIT. But, either way "naked" would make things even hotter... as expected! ::) :P
(t)
Sorry, when I said story, I meant SCREENPLAY! ;D I sometimes forget that we have 3 source groups here: 2 versions of the story, various versions of the screenplay, and the movie, with the deleted scenes.
In the published screenplay, the directive is that Jack is naked when Ennis enters the tent.
And yes, this scene is a perfect example of how carefully thought out BBM is in terms of scenes that echo each other. Some bookends are very famous, indeed. But some I think are more subtle.
The comparisons one can readily make with Ennis's entry in FNIT and SNIT is I think quite subtle. One barely notices it, when you view them in sequence.
^^) ^^) ^^) And who change that?? :*( ^^)
%&) I shouldn't think about that... I just shouldn't... :d) :d) >:D :-X :-X :-X :-X
It is not always necessary for us to be aware of the details, but they reaches us nevertheless. :)
And why not think about it? It is a rather yummy detail. ;D #)
Well, they didn't follow the directive. It probably would have been awkward for our actors, perhaps? But I think shirtless was fine and had the right "effect" for Ennis's entry. :)
Yup! It would be too awkward for them. Shirtless was enough... but now when you mentioned it (and I didn't know that information before) I'd kind of liked if the obeyed! :P ::) ::)
;D #) #) #) #)
I love the tenderness that Jack shows Ennis in SNIT...& the hunger that Ennis shows wanting to explore all of Jack's body. So sexy.
I bet you would have preferred Ennis to have entered the tent neatly undressed! ;D #)
Yes, I think shirtless was definitely enough to set the tone...
::) ::) ::) Yup! Ennis!.... and Jack!.... and Ennis!.... :-X :-X :-X :-X
Ok, now I am being naughty (totally unlike myself ::) ), but the intimacy (emotional and physical) and the innocent of two young men (and tenderness as Atalley said) is what counts and what made SNIT so divinely attractive! <^( <^( <^(
*o) Well,I wouldn't be so sure that ir's totally unlike yourself... :i
Coming back to the topic,yes,I think it's a mixture of feelings and sensations what makes SNIT really touching.We can see some lust and wish,but also a sense of almost protection,tenderness,and need of one another.Jack's sexual experience altogether with Ennis innocence,but both emotionally linked...Tender and sexy at the same time...yummy¡ :P
*o) Well,I wouldn't be so sure that ir's totally unlike yourself... :i
Coming back to the topic,yes,I think it's a mixture of feelings and sensations what makes SNIT really touching.We can see some lust and wish,but also a sense of almost protection,tenderness,and need of one another.Jack's sexual experience altogether with Ennis innocence,but both emotionally linked...Tender and sexy at the same time...yummy¡ :P
What I like most of all is the tenderness of it all. Lust takes a back seet for me -- there are certainly more explicit and "yummy" scenes in other movies -- but this one just has the perfect balance of restraint, tenderness, and sensuality.
Did you just say YUMMY?! :*(
OK, then you're ready for Jake's pic thread! >:D >:D >:D
#) #) #)
What I like most of all is the tenderness of it all. Lust takes a back seat for me -- there are certainly more explicit and "yummy" scenes in other movies -- but this one just has the perfect balance of restraint, tenderness, and sensuality.
Did you just say YUMMY?! :*(
OK, then you're ready for Jake's pic thread! >:D >:D >:D
#) #) #)
What I like most of all is the tenderness of it all. Lust takes a back seat for me -- there are certainly more explicit and "yummy" scenes in other movies -- but this one just has the perfect balance of restraint, tenderness, and sensuality.I can't really add anything else to that; it's a well balanced scene that shows love above any other feeling. <^(
Well,we could call it "fear" somehow,why not?; as a matter of fact,there's always a little-or a lot...-of fear against the unknown.And it's clear that Ennis was going to cross a door that led to the unknown,to some unknown feelings and sensations that attracted him,but at the same time he refused and feared.
Do you think that there was an element of FEAR when Ennis entered the tent. Would it be out of line to say that we also see a hint of fear?
Well,we could call it "fear" somehow,why not?; as a matter of fact,there's always a little-or a lot...-of fear against the unknown.And it's clear that Ennis was going to cross a door that led to the unknown,to some unknown feelings and sensations that attracted him,but at the same time he refused and feared.
Sometimes,by the way,I have thought that Ennis feared himself,feared Jack also for what he made him feel,and feared his mixed emotions.Some mixed emotions that are clearer in SNIT than in any other scene,maybe; so,yup,he was a little afraid of this new "adventure" he was going to begin in Jack's arms.
In a sense, I think it was the "unknown from within". I think he pretty much expected what was to happen when he entered the tent -- but he was certainly unsure how he himself would react to all this. It's part of the inner conflict -- a part of him that he had never explored before and was taking the first tentative steps of knowing...
Oh,of course,the unknown was within Ennis himself,doubtless...When I was talking about "fear to the unknown",I meant that,even if he knew was was going to happen when he had entered the tent,there was something inside him that refused it and,even,was doubtful about how he and Jack would react,as you say.But,IMO,more than in these concrete moments,in the following days,the consequences that this was going to have in them and how he'd lived having explored this side of him that he wished,refused,loved and hated at the same time.
Exactly. The consequences of their actions were in some ways partly seen by both of them, but a lot of it was largely unknown. They probably didn't want to know at that very moment. This is the nature of decisive action -- one can only act decisively when one sets aside one's doubts about the future..
Yes,the same than very often-and I'd say that it should be always,in order that our life was more equilibrated-our actions are a wise-or not...-mix of sensibility and boldness.In that moment,it's sure that Ennis let his sensible side out of the tent,even if the rest of his life this has more weight than the boldness...
Can one place some significance that in this very scene, Ennis invariably shuts his eyes? I think this detail is significant to our present exchange...
Ah,it could be...Maybe is it only a way to feel Jack better?Or,as in DE scene,a way for not seeing that it is a man who he is making love to?...
Just went to my 5th viewing today. Every time is a new discovery and thought process. One of them is the topic I am posting.
In the 2nd tent scene, why did Ennis enter the tent and apologize to Jack? How significant is his initiative?
Well..I have thought of the first question - still can't figure it out. Any thought on that?
For the second question, it is no doubt in my mind that Ennis was drawn to Jack and really took comfort in the relationship. The love making scene is just incredible. I could watch it over and over again.
More like "plunge" of faith...
:f) :c)
Submission is a good word. It is such a rarity for Ennis. *sniff* too. I think this is the only one time when Ennis was taking the *lead* in the relationship.
Actually, Ennis is always lead in the relationship after Jack takes his hand that first night. He is the one who takes Jack, he is the one who decides to come to the tent the second night, he is the one who ends it, and when things pick back up, he is the one who lays the ground work and dictates how the relationship will go. Hence Jack's quip about being on a "short leash".
As for the second tent scene, Ennis is sitting at the fire deciding on what to do (IMO). Is it really a "one shot thing" (which apparently the Italian version translated as "story is over before it started", i.e. woops that was a mistake) or is he really going to go with this. Is it humility that takes him to the tent? Submission? I saw it as abject fear and nervousness. He can say "I was drunk" and dismiss the night before. But he's stone-cold sober and walking into a tent where another man is to have sex. That's stepping through the looking glass. Jack calmed him down and told him "It's ok" (to be here, to feel this, to want this, etc.). It's surprising how ok Jack was with all this. Makes you wonder if he was new to this.
My 2 cents....late as it is.
I always thought Ennis knew it was love. He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight. He refers to Jack as "little darlin'". He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack. The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy. I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late. I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.
I always thought Ennis knew it was love. He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight. He refers to Jack as "little darlin'". He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack. The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy. I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late. I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.
I always thought Ennis knew it was love. He tells Jack that the reason he dry heaved was because he never should've let Jack out of his sight. He refers to Jack as "little darlin'". He sacrifices his financial welfare and family to keep his flexibility for Jack. The idea of another man with Jack enrages him with jealousy. I don't think that Ennis didn't realize his love for Jack until it was too late. I think he didn't realize that he was willing to take the risks until it was too late.
Going back to the original topic, do any of you think that Ennis's apology at the beginning of SNIT indicated a partial admission that (perhaps) this was not just a one shot thing after all?
It could be,because Ennis knew from the beginning that he was going to "give up" sooner or later.So,he felt sorry for his behaviour with Jack,denying something he wished as much as he feared...
Going back to the original topic, do any of you think that Ennis's apology at the beginning of SNIT indicated a partial admission that (perhaps) this was not just a one shot thing after all?
I will have to watch the movie again. I don't recall Ennis apologizing at all. I do remember Jack kept repeating "It's okay." I thought it was because Ennis was shaking so much, as often the case during someone's first "conscious" encounter. It's part of Heath's realistic portrayal of Ennis' struggle with his own inner demons while yearning for the merging of two souls. The shaking was part of the fight, to shut out and stay behind the wall, while wanting desperately to open and embrace the friend and soulmate. Jack's repetition was meant to reassure Ennis that everything is okay. It's nobody's business but theirs.
The point of the long moment in front of the fire was meant to portray Ennis' deliberation, that this ain't just the whiskey talking. He might still think it was just two guys having fun, and not considering the consequences after getting off the mountain. The conversation by the river under the stars, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation, was meant to clarify that as far as Ennis was concerned, "It ain't going to be no commitment. Just us two guys in the middle of nowhere having some fun."
Problem was, Ennis couldn't get no reins on his feelings, just that he liked the ride.
#$# back loreen. SNIT is one of my favorite scenes, too. I like it better than FNIT. But better yet, is the scene at Motel Siesta, after the fireworks, so to speak. :P That and Ennis thanking heavens for the reunion by the river. I watch reruns of them in my mind all the time. :c) ^f^
I will have to watch the movie again. I don't recall Ennis apologizing at all. I do remember Jack kept repeating "It's okay." I thought it was because Ennis was shaking so much, as often the case during someone's first "conscious" encounter. It's part of Heath's realistic portrayal of Ennis' struggle with his own inner demons while yearning for the merging of two souls. The shaking was part of the fight, to shut out and stay behind the wall, while wanting desperately to open and embrace the friend and soulmate. Jack's repetition was meant to reassure Ennis that everything is okay. It's nobody's business but theirs.
The point of the long moment in front of the fire was meant to portray Ennis' deliberation, that this ain't just the whiskey talking. He might still think it was just two guys having fun, and not considering the consequences after getting off the mountain. The conversation by the river under the stars, after Jack proposed the cow and calf operation, was meant to clarify that as far as Ennis was concerned, "It ain't going to be no commitment. Just us two guys in the middle of nowhere having some fun."
Problem was, Ennis couldn't get no reins on his feelings, just that he liked the ride.
I am here with you Lance!
Ennis didn't apologize at all. Jack repeated 3 times "it's alright" to reassure Ennis who was about to feel love for the first time and who was trembling in front of him.
I watched this scene many times ::) (don't ask! :-X :-X :-X) and the color of the voice is the same - Jack's. Ennis never opened his mouth inside the tent (hardly even when they kissed ;D), so - IMO, no apology spoken up!
~)
Well, to be honest, I really didn't notice the apology until members mentioned it here. In many cases, I still don't hear it, but when I watch this scene, I think that I do hear it sometimes! ;)
You know, I thouight that it was significant that in SNIT, whiskey didn't play any part in Ennis's actions/deliberations. It was a truly conscious movement on his part to get what he desired...
Well, it was shown in that way at least... and who knows. Maybe he did have a few shots before deciding to enter.(I know that I wouldn't need any if jack would wait for me :P)
;D Well, you're right of course. WE really can't tell. But I would think that Ennis probably didn't want to be drunk this time around. He wanted to experience it deliberately, and will full command of his senses/faculties -- the better to enjoy the delicious moment.
A little OT, but (and I maybe wrote this before - I don't know ???), there was a great joke on TV.
A teacher in the school for elders ask one student:
- You're druk, aren't you?
- Nope!
- You want me to believe that you're sober!
- Nope!
- So, what are you?
- Just right!
;D ;D ;D
To go back to the topic, I think that Ennis was "just right" for Jack's arms...and all the rest >:D!
(t) (t) (t)
;D You wicked girl! *SPANK!* #)
Well, I still somehow think that whether or not Ennis had any alcohol -- he most likely did during supper -- I think he was sober when he entered the tent. I think that this time around, he probably didn't nead alcohol to steel his nerves... But who knows?
;D
I think that he was "just right" for the love, meaning that he was perfectly aware of the reality, whether there was some whiskey involved or not! ::) :P And that he accepted that reality by entering the tent. (t)
Letting aside some wicked thoughts, ;D I think he was aware enough of the situation,of what could happen if he entered into the tent.But let's say that whiskey was the right help he needed to give this step,that maybe being entirely sober he had lasted rather more in giving.
Sometimes I get this feeling that at that moment, Ennis must have thought that he was in a dream... :)
But it was a dream in a way, wasn't it? So surreal, for making love for the first time, for being so enchanted and melting in man's arms.... and not in a woman's. Surely, for a man like Ennis it felt like dream. <^(
In a way, we think of dreams as (1) either an escape from reality or (2) a reflection/manifestation of a higher (i.e., inner) reality that may or may not be openly acknowledged when awake. I think both ways of looking at things applies to SNIT, when Ennis escapes his self-conflicted nature for a brief moment of freedom, and as a manifestation of a deep acceptance within his part of the reality of love, no matter how/what he feels about that love.
::) ::) I always thought Ennis entered the tent to get inside Jack's pants. :P
::) ::) I always thought Ennis entered the tent to get inside Jack's pants. :P
;D ;D ;D
Naughty Lance! >:D
Still, that really was the aim, but there were so many beautiful things on the road to the pants... Jack's loving arms and kisses and tenderness... (t) (t) (t)
That's what we love about it... <^( <^( <^(Still, we'd like to see the end of the game too... :P >:D ^-^
And what kind of end are you hankering for?#)
Getting inside Jack's pans I guess! :P :P
#)