Topic: Fear of Love.....The Fight on Brokeback Mountain

[FlwrChild]

Tony, I meant to comment on your other post about this point. I thought what you said here was absolutely beautiful:

The Dozy Embrace very much had Jack going into a dream world, a sleepy enchantment, so different from all the liveliness we had seen in him
before.  I want to believe that that was when he internalized the love for Ennis, made it forever sacred, and yet, against the apparent impossibility
of its ever being fulfilled, separated it from real life, which allowed him to look elsewhere.
  Another way of saying this is that, in that scene, in those moments, Jack found the only solution available, the emergence of two worlds, one
where he carried within an enchanted, immortal love, that wasn't realizable, and the other world, where he was practical and looked for a
day-to-day partner.  In that sense, he was never unfaithful.
  Can I get away with this, as a solution?  Please let me.   That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him.  The Dozy Embrace
would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something.  A change of some kind.  Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way,
we can always know he stayed true.

And yes, you can get away with that as a solution. It's a wonderful way of looking at it, and equally as credible as any theory I've seen. So I hope it won't sound contradictory for me to say that, like your feelings about MG's post, I recognize this possibility but still can't embrace it for myself. I always go back to that "Let be. Let be." from the short story as a way to tell himself 'Don't dwell on what you can't have. Hang onto what you can. It's still the love of your life and it's still what you'll always need, whatever you can have of it.' He is saddened, yes, and resigned, probably in a way that he never was before, to the limitations of their relationship. But in the end, I just don't believe that while either of them was living, Jack would look for another mate to make a life with. "I wish I knew how to quit you." An acknowledgment that he can't. The remembrance of the dozy embrace. Recognition of the course his heart set 20 years ago, which he'll follow for the rest of his life.

It's no more valid than your interpretation, maybe even less so in terms of being realistic to real life. Nevertheless, I cling to it, because anything else would break my heart. Thanks for sharing yours. I hope you don't mind me sharing mine.

[Tony]

    FlowerChild, we're nearly 1 or 2 words away from 100% agreement (not that that is necessary).  For the sake of brevity, I wrote that Jack
had made some changes in his thinking.  I left out----I didn't think they would have held up. No matter what else was going on, I can never
believe he would have skipped the next trip.
   What I saw was--the melt-down, the exhaustion shown in the Dozy Embrace, the understanding the love would never end, in that Dreamy Gaze,
and in the Bitter Stare, a decision he might just try for a more practical affair.  Which he did, according to his father. And though someone else
was willing, it never worked, and that could easily be because Jack's heart wasn't in it, (which is exactly what you have said).  He might try,
but he couldn't make it work.  The decision couldn't hold. Your instinct is the same as mine that Ennis was, for him, the only one.
  I was describing then, the immediate aftermath, shown in each progression of those scenes. A disaster.  I left out-it couldn't hold up.   Like you,
I can never imagine Jack successfully replacing Ennis. But I think he might have tried, and quickly found no one could replace Ennis. We KNOW
that other attempt fell through and we ought to know that was because Jack couldn't ever do it.
  But, I went a step further.  Am sure he would have showed up at the next trip. Am sure, like you, he'd never succeed in replacing Ennis. But I
also believe, past everyone else....Ennis would have changed.  He got hit pretty hard, too, at that melt-down. I just think he saw the risk of
losing Jack, for the first time, and was headed, for change.  They never got the chance.
  We agree, FlowerChild---I just left out what I believe, with all my heart, would have happened later.  Some resolution to the good.

[Tony]

   Didn't want to delete or edit the above post, so will just add this:  Anyone who thinks decisions made by our two lovers were set in stone
and irreversible, should remember, they had left each other, once before, and that didn't hold up either.  They left each other after leaving
the mountain.  And kept apart for 4 years.  The love was so great, they would change, if there were no other choice.  Not only would Jack have
come back that next trip, Ennis did have it in him to change.  He'd done that twice before.  He never would have given up, nor would Jack.

[FlwrChild]

Oh man, that was so well put. And you're right. We do see it practically the same after all. I don't believe that Ennis had it in him, at any other time in the story, to make those changes. But he was indeed rocked by what he learned, what he felt, and what he experienced in that last encounter. Though AP said nothing had changed, that doesn't preclude the possibility that he could change in the future. I absolutely believe in my heart that both would have been there in November had Jack lived. Who knows what course their lives might have taken in later years? This is the missed opportunity we mourn, as well as all the ones that went before, because this is the one that still held promise. Sigh.

[babytammy7]

This is an amazing thread!! Thank you so much Tony and Barb for your last posts; they are absolutely beautiful!!

[manhattangirl]

There is really no right or wrong but seeing things differently, no harm no foul. But please tell me If I'm misunderstanding.

If Jack at that moment of the dozy embrace, realized and understood Ennis and accepted it, his disappointment, and the wanting of a life with Ennis the following years would have never occurred, than he would have been happy going to Brokeback, with the  understanding that this was all that could be, and so settled for it.

Jack was one not to internalized anything, he wasn't Ennis.  You can see what he feels, how he feels.  You saw the hope and love in his face at 19, and I do believe this where he fell in love with Ennis, this moment was significant for Jack, he remembered year later, the sexless moment of connection, "the dozy embrace", and the resignation, disappointment, and acceptance of what is at 39, the "final confrontation".    This is the painful part of the story, we don't like to look at it or deal with it, because this where Jack's story, his story ends, remembering what was, and what could have been, a "real good life".   

Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him,  but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road.  Now that's a painful irony.

Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant. 

I'm beginning to understand why AP had to end the story this way. 

[FlwrChild]

I totally agree with that manhattangirl.

My take on the dozy embrace, and the discussion with Tony about his take on Jack's feelings at the different times in his life, was about his reflection on the dozy embrace all those years later, not what he was feeling or realizing at the actual time of the dozy embrace.  I think Jack may have realized that Ennis wasn't ready to accept loving a man at that moment, but he probably thought it would come with time. After all, he asked him to make a life together four years after that. His understanding of the extent of Ennis's limitations in that respect came after the final confrontation, when he was remembering, and longing for, that perfect moment. 'Maybe they'd never got much farther than that. Let be. Let be.' Which I don't think of as giving up on the entire relationship, but as giving up on the idea that Ennis would ever be able to give more than he has to date. This, to me, is the source of his disappointment.

I liked what you said here:

"Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him,  but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road.  Now that's a painful irony."

This, as it happens, is exactly why I love Jack. And you couldn't have said it any better.

And yes, I can't think of any other way she could have ended it. Thomas once said something like:

Jack couldn't live without Ennis.

Jack couldn't be with Ennis.

Therefore, Jack couldn't live.

Close, but not quite. I'm sure he'll correct it for me when he comes in next.

[lancecowboy]

Tony, FlwrChild, tpe, ManhattanGirl, I am so glad to come back to this thread, and find your beautiful consensus. You all have explained the love of Jack for Ennis so clearly to me. Thank you. Just as Ennis internalized the label people put on him by projecting I ain't queer, in equal intensity, Jack embraced and internalized the love they shared on Brokeback Mountain, and made their relationship his life work. His work was completed when Ennis found those shirts and were transformed, letting go of the label and embracing their love.  Thank you all.

[...]
I guess is how we see it.  Jack was faithful, and always true, his love for Ennis was real, not a dream, we had proof  of how deeply he felt, how he saw the love as we find out later.  What his fear was realizing that his "unfaithfulness" to Ennis would be his life, and was his reality.
 
The dozy embrace for me is when Jack first realized he was in love with Ennis, and in remembering that moment of realiazation Jack understood that was as close he ever be to his lover, and accepted it.  Maybe that why his story ended there at that moment of understanding.
[...]

It is an act of surrender, IMO.  He acknowledgers Ennis fears -- i.e., Ennis's inability to even look at his face during the embrace.  But he is willing to forgo even this.  "Let be, let be."  I think that was his final answer to the question of fear.  He was willing to accept it, and live with it.

[...]
  What I saw, in the Dozy Embrace, on Jack's side, was exhaustion, resignation, and sadness, without rejecting the love.  He felt he could never get Ennis to understand he needed full companionship.  That scene fades into the Dreamy Gaze, watching Ennis driving off with the horses, and the Dreamy Gaze has the same elements of the Dozy Embrace plus---understanding of Ennis, and an amazing sweetness and tenderness which is where I feel he internalized the love, maybe even  separated it from his sexual needs, and.......gave up.  Not the love. The hope of getting Ennis to ever change.  Then we see the Dreamy Gaze jump to the Bitter Stare, as Ennis is leaving, again, ending that last meeting.

  So, for me, that is when Jack internalized the love, as his ideal, but moved to the practical reality of finding a day-to-day companion. For me, there is no way this was when he finally knew of his love.  He knew of his love all along.  This was where he had to admit it wasn't
working out. Big difference there.
  As I said, I've learned it might not be a matter of who's got it right, but more like, what did each of us see, and so each version is equally valid. But that's what I saw.  Dozy Embrace-exhaustion. Dreamy Gaze-I will love you forever. Bitter Stare-I've got to find a companion other than Ennis, even if it is loveless.
  Many might agree on this.  Few would agree with me that Ennis would change.  He was exhausted, too.  A few more melt-downs, and I believe he would have found his way home---to living with Jack.
[...]

Tony, I meant to comment on your other post about this point. I thought what you said here was absolutely beautiful:

The Dozy Embrace very much had Jack going into a dream world, a sleepy enchantment, so different from all the liveliness we had seen in him before.  I want to believe that that was when he internalized the love for Ennis, made it forever sacred, and yet, against the apparent impossibility of its ever being fulfilled, separated it from real life, which allowed him to look elsewhere.
  Another way of saying this is that, in that scene, in those moments, Jack found the only solution available, the emergence of two worlds, one where he carried within an enchanted, immortal love, that wasn't realizable, and the other world, where he was practical and looked for a day-to-day partner.  In that sense, he was never unfaithful.
  Can I get away with this, as a solution?  Please let me.   That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him.  The Dozy Embrace would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something.  A change of some kind.  Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way, we can always know he stayed true.

And yes, you can get away with that as a solution. It's a wonderful way of looking at it, and equally as credible as any theory I've seen. So I hope it won't sound contradictory for me to say that, like your feelings about MG's post, I recognize this possibility but still can't embrace it for myself. I always go back to that "Let be. Let be." from the short story as a way to tell himself 'Don't dwell on what you can't have. Hang onto what you can. It's still the love of your life and it's still what you'll always need, whatever you can have of it.' He is saddened, yes, and resigned, probably in a way that he never was before, to the limitations of their relationship. But in the end, I just don't believe that while either of them was living, Jack would look for another mate to make a life with. "I wish I knew how to quit you." An acknowledgment that he can't. The remembrance of the dozy embrace. Recognition of the course his heart set 20 years ago, which he'll follow for the rest of his life.

[...]

[...]
If Jack at that moment of the dozy embrace, realized and understood Ennis and accepted it, his disappointment, and the wanting of a life with Ennis the following years would have never occurred, than he would have been happy going to Brokeback, with the  understanding that this was all that could be, and so settled for it.

Jack was one not to internalized anything, he wasn't Ennis.  You can see what he feels, how he feels.  You saw the hope and love in his face at 19, and I do believe this where he fell in love with Ennis, this moment was significant for Jack, he remembered year later, the sexless moment of connection, "the dozy embrace", and the resignation, disappointment, and acceptance of what is at 39, the "final confrontation".    This is the painful part of the story, we don't like to look at it or deal with it, because this where Jack's story, his story ends, remembering what was, and what could have been, a "real good life".   

Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him,  but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road.  Now that's a painful irony.

Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant. 
[...]

[babytammy7]

Thomas once said something like:

Jack couldn't live without Ennis.

Jack couldn't be with Ennis.

Therefore, Jack couldn't live.

Close, but not quite. I'm sure he'll correct it for me when he comes in next.

Wow Barb......That's so true and so so so sad.... :\'(  :\'(  :\'( It's the most correct definition of Jack's life I ever read...... That's amazing!!

Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him,  but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road.  Now that's a painful irony.

Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant. 

I'm beginning to understand why AP had to end the story this way. 

Love your post MG!!! I really love Jack for what he was, so human, so in love. And yes that's a painful irony as I said once in the Ironic BBM thread. But maybe that was how it had to be, living on a road looking for love, and dying on that same road when you have found at last love, 'cause though we see Jack so bitter and sad I know he really found love and also he was happy with that love most of the time, in fact I think that in a strange but powerful way he was happy with Ennis love till the day of his death. I know that maybe this makes no sense for you but for me all that Jack had in his life was Ennis love and 'cause of that and in spite of the disappointment I know that if he had a second change in his life and could come back to that summer of 63 he would do everything again.

[tpe]

***
Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant. 

I'm beginning to understand why AP had to end the story this way. 

I do feel that Jack was the active agent that counterbalanced Ennis's fears.  In a way, he counterbalanced his own fears about the relationship, by trying to be patient not only with Ennis, but also with himself (as I think the Dozy Embrace remembrance illustrates).  That was a heavy load to carry, on all counts.  I do agree that it was through that love that Ennis found himself at the very last.

[tpe]

I totally agree with that manhattangirl.

My take on the dozy embrace, and the discussion with Tony about his take on Jack's feelings at the different times in his life, was about his reflection on the dozy embrace all those years later, not what he was feeling or realizing at the actual time of the dozy embrace.  I think Jack may have realized that Ennis wasn't ready to accept loving a man at that moment, but he probably thought it would come with time. After all, he asked him to make a life together four years after that. His understanding of the extent of Ennis's limitations in that respect came after the final confrontation, when he was remembering, and longing for, that perfect moment. 'Maybe they'd never got much farther than that. Let be. Let be.' Which I don't think of as giving up on the entire relationship, but as giving up on the idea that Ennis would ever be able to give more than he has to date. This, to me, is the source of his disappointment.

***

I certainly think he was not giving up on his love for Ennis, even if he had to grapple with Ennis's fears and concede that Ennis could not go the distance as that point, as you have noted.

Jack didn't seem to be daunted by Ennis's fears, and he certainly didn't rtry to show his own.  A little bit of the latter peeps out in the last confrontation, but I do think that the remembrance of the Dozy Embrance is an affirmation of love over fear.  The remembrance, in a way, saves him from the final disappointment.

 

[Tony]

    Manhattangirl, that really was so very true---Jack was the force in this relationship, so much so that I now see the scene of the train
suddenly racing in front of Ennis, in front of Aguirre's trailor, as the prelude to....Jack.  Unexpected, a powerful force, that had the original
Ennis fading in and then out, overwhelming the Ennis that was.
   Jack was a life force confronting a person who had, essentially, given up, because if we look at that early Ennis, he had some kind of
resignation that life wasn't going to be much for him.  His mention of the upcoming marriage to Alma was unenthusiastic.  He probably loved
her, but felt she would never really know or understand him.  In fact, that Ennis never expected anybody to bother, to look for an inner soul,
and that was already a settled issue--nobody saw much to him, not even himself.
   But there came Jack, roaring in like the train, but with warm energy---a clunky pick-up, a persistent intent to be a friend, and one helluva
personality.  And it was Jack that renewed the affair 4 years later, and Jack who stayed on the road, commuting.  We ought to remember,
though, that Ennis made many adjustments to his work schedule and compromises of other kinds, and took risks, as best he could.
  Back to the Dozy Embrace---it seemed to me that life-force was drained, and so, in earlier posts, I spoke of the progression of scenes and
events from there that reflected Jack felt he had reached the end, not of his love, but of any hopes for things getting better.  I still believe
that, but also added, later, that that could not hold up.  In other words, the life-force was visibly exhausted, but would regenerate, given
time.  He would have shown up, that next trip. Might not have been planning to--but he would have.  For no matter how much exhaustion he
felt, the love itself would always return the original energy.  That's a roundabout projection, but, for me, it fits the opposing tensions and
how they would have worked out.
  You are right, MG, his was the driving force.  I would only add, the love itself rose above each of their traits and became the force more
powerful than Jack's life energy and Ennis' slowness.  That was the ultimate force, past Jack's personality, and it would have won out, if
only there had been more time, for that driving force was in both of them.

[FlwrChild]

Wow, you all continue to blow me away.

tpe:

Jack didn't seem to be daunted by Ennis's fears, and he certainly didn't rtry to show his own.  A little bit of the latter peeps out in the last confrontation, but I do think that the remembrance of the Dozy Embrance is an affirmation of love over fear.  The remembrance, in a way, saves him from the final disappointment.

Tony:

I would only add, the love itself rose above each of their traits and became the force more powerful than Jack's life energy and Ennis' slowness.  That was the ultimate force, past Jack's personality, and it would have won out, if only there had been more time, for that driving force was in both of them.


Beautiful, fellas. Sigh. You really nailed the essence of Jack and Ennis.

And Tony, I really liked your train analogies.

[manhattangirl]

Like what Flowerchild said "WOW",  so many beautiful posts, from all of you.  One thing I realize is that you can't separate Jack from Ennis.  They are bonded forever together.  To understand one, you must try to understand the other.  Separately one was a pissant salesman, the other a just a random ranchhands, nameless one of many going from ranch to ranch looking for a job, this was their lives.  But together the possibilities endless, the love almost indescribable,  each fighting a fear that shackled them both.   Beautiful and so very painful.

Again I learn so much from all of you.

[babytammy7]

Like what Flowerchild said "WOW",  so many beautiful posts, from all of you.  One thing I realize is that you can't separate Jack from Ennis.  They are bonded forever together.  To understand one, you must try to understand the other.  Separately one was a pissant salesman, the other a just a random ranchhands, nameless one of many going from ranch to ranch looking for a job, this was their lives.  But together the possibilities endless, the love almost indescribable,  each fighting a fear that shackled them both.   Beautiful and so very painful.

Again I learn so much from all of you.

So beautiful post MG!!! That describes perfectly what BBM is and means: and endless, indescribable love.

[tpe]

It is strange to realize that even though fighting their own fears shackled them and kept them apart, it was also by these fears that they recognized their need for each other.  So many fears do accompany love, no?  It is not paradoxical to say that one cannot love without fear.  If one loves without some fear (of rejection, of misunderstanding, etc.), then one can argue that the love is dead.

 

[babytammy7]

It is strange to realize that even though fighting their own fears shackled them and kept them apart, it was also by these fears that they recognized their need for each other.  So many fears do accompany love, no?  It is not paradoxical to say that one cannot love without fear.  If one loves without some fear (of rejection, of misunderstanding, etc.), then one can argue that the love is dead.
 

So well said Thomas!!! Beautiful!!!

[Tony]

   In another section (SS vs. Screenplay), they've revived a couple of threads I had never seen, including one-"Open Spaces" where there is an
effort to understand the last line in the SS, "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing
could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
   The many takes on that line belong in that thread, but there may be some relevance here, with tpe's saying above that fear of misunderstanding
(I've condensed his sentence) is part of the love process and without that, and other fears, love is dead. Hope I got that right. What he said
is a key point in Dr. Grey's book on Romantic Love---fears and doubts are essential to the energy force of romantic love before it settles down
to family love.  Romantic love is a dance between two lovers, forward and backward, never really reaching stasis, or complete acceptance and
belief.
  Annie deliberately left that line open for the reader to fill in, but would say, here, one possibility is that the open space was between what he knew
(finally) that the love was as strong as his and returned, and what he tried to believe, that maybe it could have worked out after all.
That's one take, and, of course, the varied opinions on that line, going back and forth, belong on that thread, not here.
  Tpe's reference to doubt made me think of that.  If in any way true, the final fear for Ennis was that maybe---it could have worked out,
compromises made, and many more years together.  Not fear of love, but fear the love might just have been strong enough to carry them
through.  This is, for me, an awful reading of that line, for it is the most painful of all.  But Annie left it open, and so it could be that terrible.

[manhattangirl]

It is strange to realize that even though fighting their own fears shackled them and kept them apart, it was also by these fears that they recognized their need for each other.  So many fears do accompany love, no?  It is not paradoxical to say that one cannot love without fear.  If one loves without some fear (of rejection, of misunderstanding, etc.), then one can argue that the love is dead.

 

What so interesting is the type of fear each had.  Ennis fear of expressing that love he could lose, Jack fear of not expressing that love he loses.  The fear is there for both, but what so painful is that the fear runs oppoisite of each other.   That torque of emotion and reason, no answers nothing changed. 

 

[tpe]

What so interesting is the type of fear each had.  Ennis fear of expressing that love he could lose, Jack fear of not expressing that love he loses.  The fear is there for both, but what so painful is that the fear runs oppoisite of each other.   That torque of emotion and reason, no answers nothing changed. 

Their fears did seem to run counter with each other, and if I understand you correctly, it is not just the fears per se, but the inherent conflict of the opposing tendencies that aggravated the pain. 

You are so right to bring up the image of the torque -- the image is indeed appropriate when we see the opposing fears in terms of motion and counter-motion.  The result of the opposing tendecies is stasis.  From all that pain, no true movement is produced.

[manhattangirl]

Their fears did seem to run counter with each other, and if I understand you correctly, it is not just the fears per se, but the inherent conflict of the opposing tendencies that aggravated the pain. 

You are so right to bring up the image of the torque -- the image is indeed appropriate when we see the opposing fears in terms of motion and counter-motion.  The result of the opposing tendecies is stasis.  From all that pain, no true movement is produced.

.

You understand what I'm trying say.   

[tpe]

.

You understand what I'm trying say.   

Thanks MG.  I do love the torque image. 

I somehow felt that when Jack embraced Ennis close to the end of the confrontation scene, it looked as if they were grappling with each other. 

[orangetruck]

want to post this here as well, as it seems befitting..

This one is hard for me to swallow, too. But Jack and Ennis always were poor at speaking of love; Jack's bold remark "what we got now is brokeback mountain!" is the confession of a man who is dying without Ennis, that he cannot have what Ennis had given him, this Brokeback Mountain, this love. He could finally acknowledge that love is what had binded them together forever, but he still hadn't utilized the L section of Webster's dictionary.
     It's also heartbreaking for me to know that Ennis couldn't hold back his tears then. On absorbing Jack's desperate language of love, Ennis' guard of both himself and Jack had become vulnerable; then the stab of Jack suggesting that the only love they both had could be taken away, with "I wish I knew how to quit you" going straight into his back. I think that's why he had to cry as he fumbled to respond - Jack cracked his shell, and the then why don't you and ... just let me be, huh! were a frightened little Ennis, a kid who'd been lead to Earl.
     Every second of the final confrontation is an eerie parallel to what Ennis was never "allowed" to have, and to know of a father who (un)consciously grounded his child from "Brokeback Mountain" is arguably more disgusting than dead Earl himself. 

The more I watch Jack and Ennis fight in that scene, the easier I am on Ennis. I am fairly irresponsible in some aspects but relate to Ennis' busted but ever so human morale. It shows not just his tough exterior but also an inner strength, and he wraps it around Jack so silently (i.e. dozy embrace..) throughout their snowy mountaintop affair; it's no wonder Jack may realize what they have up there is love.

[Matt Nasty]

im not sure the fight was caused by a fear of love i think the possible main reason was ennis' frustration at his time with jack being cut short especially since i dont beleive ennis ever thought he would see jack after they came down from broke back it was " a one shot deal" i bekeive this is the reason the fought rather then a fear of the love.

[orangetruck]

im not sure the fight was caused by a fear of love i think the possible main reason was ennis' frustration at his time with jack being cut short especially since i dont beleive ennis ever thought he would see jack after they came down from broke back it was " a one shot deal" i bekeive this is the reason the fought rather then a fear of the love.

Buddy, Brokeback is a testament to love, and the film is about overcoming that fear or not. I'm going to have to disagree with you, not so much specifically though, as generally speaking towards the majority of disagreements or fights between Ennis and Jack. One knew that the extension of that "thing" was possible, the other didn't. And, as they both needed each other, these opposing personas caused quakes between them, both on the mountain and further down the road..
I get what you're saying though, don't get me wrong.

[Matt Nasty]

Buddy, Brokeback is a testament to love, and the film is about overcoming that fear or not. I'm going to have to disagree with you, not so much specifically though, as generally speaking towards the majority of disagreements or fights between Ennis and Jack. One knew that the extension of that "thing" was possible, the other didn't. And, as they both needed each other, these opposing personas caused quakes between them, both on the mountain and further down the road..
I get what you're saying though, don't get me wrong.

yer dont get me wrong i know the reason i mentioned above was just what i felt was a partilal cause of the fight, but yes i do think ennis also had a fear of their love at first because he didnt want to be "queer" and then because he was affraid of what society would do if they knew he was.

[tpe]

Thanks orangetruck and zankou. 

Personally, I do associate Ennis's breakdown in the final confrontation with the Fear of Love.  For some reason, I also think that he intentionally, if not unconsciously, sought ways to limit the meetings with Jack -- not because he found any pleasure in all this, mind you.  I just felt that Ennis over the years had become more paranoid and more fearful about being found out.  Not that we can balme him or say that his fears were groundless.  As I mentioned in the past, Jack's death may have reinforced this notion to a certain extent...

[Matt Nasty]

Thanks orangetruck and zankou. 

Personally, I do associate Ennis's breakdown in the final confrontation with the Fear of Love.  For some reason, I also think that he intentionally, if not unconsciously, sought ways to limit the meetings with Jack -- not because he found any pleasure in all this, mind you.  I just felt that Ennis over the years had become more paranoid and more fearful about being found out.  Not that we can balme him or say that his fears were groundless.  As I mentioned in the past, Jack's death may have reinforced this notion to a certain extent...

hmmm good point but as i mentioned once in the having a ranch together thread, if ennis had chosen to be with jack maybe jack wouldnt have been so careless to get caught so... i guess well never know

[tpe]

hmmm good point but as i mentioned once in the having a ranch together thread, if ennis had chosen to be with jack maybe jack wouldnt have been so careless to get caught so... i guess well never know

Perhaps.  Jack would have been contented...

[Matt Nasty]

Perhaps.  Jack would have been contented...

but then i suppos it could have also just gotten ennis killed aswell we never really know  i jsut have to keep a decent amount of faith that in the after life the same mistakes wont need to be made.