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This thread is devoted to those lines in BBM where multiple meanings could be assigned.
To start this thread, I call your attention to 3 instances.
The first 2 have been touched upon in a number of previous threads.
The last one just occurred to me yesterday.
The first case involved Ennis's 'threat' to Jack in the last meeting: 'All them things I don't know will get you killed if I come to know them, and I ain't jokin'
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bioscop.cz%2F_web%2F_filmy%2Fb_zkrocena_hora%2Ffotografie%2F065_zkrocena_hora.jpg&hash=a88860dc89499ccc9d512c15937e4ac8b4646bcd)
Some people in previous threads have argued that there is a double meaning here. It is as if Ennis is saying that Jack would be killed by 'all them things' that Ennis did not know. Indeed, Jack was killed most likely in connection with something like this.
The second case involves Jack's retort: 'So I hope you know that if you don't never know the rest'. This line is the subject of an entire thread, and I leave it to the reader to check this thread out and see the multiple meanings assigned to this line.
The third one occured to me yesterday. In the scene where Jack is crying after being 'rejected' by Ennis after the divorce, you hear music from the award-winning song 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' I have always interpreted this as a commentary that tells us that the love between Ennis and Jack will never die -- in spite of everything. But yesterday, I have come to realize that it could also be interpreted as a commentary of Jack's love never growing old -- simply because Jack himself will die young in his love.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fun-decided.com%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbbm1140.jpg&hash=fa675e17bba08d56bd01b1dedb1b88d9a3577f27)
Please feel free to add any other lines that may be interpreted in multiple ways...
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"The third one occured to me yesterday. In the scene where Jack is crying after being 'rejected' by Ennis after the divorce, you hear music from the award-winning song 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' I have always interpreted this as a commentary that tells us that the love between Ennis and Jack will never die -- in spite of everything. But yesterday, I have come to realize that it could also be interpreted as a commentary of Jack's love never growing old -- simply because Jack himself will die young in his love."
:\'( No words.
Good thread.
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Thanks edgar
I know you will appreciate the correspondence between this and Houseman:
The Lads in their hundreds to Ludlow come in for the fair,
There’s men from the barn and the forge and the mill and the fold,
The lads for the girls and the lads for the liquor are there,
And there with the rest are the lads that will never be old.
There’s chaps from the town and the field and the till and the cart,
And many to count are the stalwart, and many the brave,
And many the handsome of face and the handsome of heart,
And few that will carry their looks or their truth to the grave.
I wish one could know them, I wish there were tokens to tell
The fortunate fellows that now you can never discern;
And then one could talk with them friendly and wish them farewell
And watch them depart on the way that they will not return.
But now you may stare as you like and there’s nothing to scan;
And brushing your elbow unguessed-at and not to be told
They carry back bright to the coiner the mintage of man,
The lads that will die in their glory and never be old.
Indeed, a love that will never be old.
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The line that has double meaning for me is what the bartender said after Jack had just been rejected by Jimbo the rodeo clown. He says "You ever try calf roping?" I think he was needling Jack. In other words "You can't rope a man, try roping a calf." I didn't like Jimbo, and I think that bartender was being just plain MEAN! He HAD to have heard the exchange that had just taken place between Jack and Jimbo. :X
Donna
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The line that has double meaning for me is what the bartender said after Jack had just been rejected by Jimbo the rodeo clown. He says "You ever try calf roping?" I think he was needling Jack. In other words "You can't rope a man, try roping a calf." I didn't like Jimbo, and I think that bartender was being just plain MEAN! He HAD to have heard the exchange that had just taken place between Jack and Jimbo. :X
Donna
How interesting. Thanks Donna.
Yes, that scene was a bit difficult for me to watch. He was really humiliated in this scene, and he was most certainly in danger.
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tpe, regarding a love that will never grow old. I noticed this myself after first buying the soundtrack and listening to the song properly. I still wonder the true meaning of the words, i guess its just one of those things that is meant to be ambiguous, and you draw your own conclusions from it, perhaps it could depend on what feelings you want to feel on hearing it. I have found it far too upsetting to dwell on the second meaning (although it does creep in fromn time to time :\'(). I tell myself it must be a celebration of their love, like you say, a love that will never die, otherwise i'd probably go fully crazy instead of being only halfway there ^*()
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the song that Jack and Lurren dance too..(looked it up and found the words) It talks about being in love..and how Jack and Lurreen are supposed to be in love and all..but maybe its talking about Ennis and Jacks love for each other..and it speaks about thier relationship..being lonely, being in love, is going to work, we will be there for each other..when at first glance it would be seem that Jack and Lurreen are in love and all..but I am thinking the song represents Jack's and Ennis love for each other..
Mary McBride Lyrics (http://www.stlyrics.com/b/brokebackmountain.htm)
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one else, can’t you see?
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
No one else, can’t you see?
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
I know sometimes you felt so lonely
I know you felt so sad and blue
But this time, you know I’m the only
Love for you that’s coming through
With everything I say and do
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
I know sometimes you felt so lonely
I know you felt so sad and blue
But this time, you know I’m the only
Love for you that’s coming through
With everything I say and do
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
No one, no one.
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the song that Jack and Lurren dance too..(looked it up and found the words) It talks about being in love..and how Jack and Lurreen are supposed to be in love and all..but maybe its talking about Ennis and Jacks love for each other..and it speaks about thier relationship..being lonely, being in love, is going to work, we will be there for each other..when at first glance it would be seem that Jack and Lurreen are in love and all..but I am thinking the song represents Jack's and Ennis love for each other..
Sunflower79, i am in full agreement with your comments. The way Jack looks off into the distance when he is dancing with Lureen, IMO at that moment he isn't there with Lureen. All his thoughts are with Ennis, holding Lureen but unable to connect with her in the way he wanted to with his TRUE love. Thank you so much for posting the lyrics, it is a definite double meaning. The song tries to make us think it is related to Jack and Lureen, but of course we know better ;)
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tpe, regarding a love that will never grow old. I noticed this myself after first buying the soundtrack and listening to the song properly. I still wonder the true meaning of the words, i guess its just one of those things that is meant to be ambiguous, and you draw your own conclusions from it, perhaps it could depend on what feelings you want to feel on hearing it. I have found it far too upsetting to dwell on the second meaning (although it does creep in fromn time to time :\'(). I tell myself it must be a celebration of their love, like you say, a love that will never die, otherwise i'd probably go fully crazy instead of being only halfway there ^*()
Thanks aimi15. Yes, I would prefer the first meaning -- that their love will forever stay young. But that song also gives a strong sense of irony to the scene when he is crying on his way to Mexico. If we juxtapose this with the double meaning of a life of love cut short, it becomes a double sarcasm too painful to bear.
The fact that Jack never fully lived a life of love with anybody gives his short life and immediacy that I am sure Ennis appreciated in the end. Jack never grew old in the peace and security of that love he craved for. It was his fate to be cut down in his prime. But even as he died too soon, I believe he still had within him that same love inebriated with the spirit of his youth, his unflagging idealism. In this sense, his life and death are both memorials to the beauty and power of both interpretations.
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tpe, regarding a love that will never grow old. I noticed this myself after first buying the soundtrack and listening to the song properly. I still wonder the true meaning of the words, i guess its just one of those things that is meant to be ambiguous, and you draw your own conclusions from it, perhaps it could depend on what feelings you want to feel on hearing it. I have found it far too upsetting to dwell on the second meaning (although it does creep in fromn time to time :\'(). I tell myself it must be a celebration of their love, like you say, a love that will never die, otherwise i'd probably go fully crazy instead of being only halfway there ^*()
Thanks aimi15. Yes, I would prefer the first meaning -- that their love will forever stay young. But that song also gives a strong sense of irony to the scene when he is crying on his way to Mexico. If we juxtapose this with the double meaning of a life of love cut short, it becomes a double sarcasm too painful to bear.
The fact that Jack never fully lived a life of love with anybody gives his short life and immediacy that I am sure Ennis appreciated in the end. Jack never grew old in the peace and security of that love he craved for. It was his fate to be cut down in his prime. But even as he died too soon, I believe he still had within him that same love inebriated with the spirit of his youth, his unflagging idealism. In this sense, his life and death are both memorials to the beauty and power of both interpretations.
That's done it... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(. Beautifully expressed though :\'(
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the song that Jack and Lurren dance too..(looked it up and found the words) It talks about being in love..and how Jack and Lurreen are supposed to be in love and all..but maybe its talking about Ennis and Jacks love for each other..and it speaks about thier relationship..being lonely, being in love, is going to work, we will be there for each other..when at first glance it would be seem that Jack and Lurreen are in love and all..but I am thinking the song represents Jack's and Ennis love for each other..
Mary McBride Lyrics (http://www.stlyrics.com/b/brokebackmountain.htm)
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one else, can’t you see?
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
No one else, can’t you see?
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
I know sometimes you felt so lonely
I know you felt so sad and blue
But this time, you know I’m the only
Love for you that’s coming through
With everything I say and do
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
I know sometimes you felt so lonely
I know you felt so sad and blue
But this time, you know I’m the only
Love for you that’s coming through
With everything I say and do
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
No one, no one.
Superb!!!! There is so much double meaning of this nature in the scenes when only music is playing, no?
The dance scene where we hear "Nobody Loves You Like Me". It is Ennis that Jack is actually longing for in this scene!!!
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pleasedancewithme.com%2FClipArtBrokebackMountainHathawayGyllenhaal.gif&hash=7af14ed7113f5c71aa2d74bc4f6d7371e7c5eb27)
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tpe, regarding a love that will never grow old. I noticed this myself after first buying the soundtrack and listening to the song properly. I still wonder the true meaning of the words, i guess its just one of those things that is meant to be ambiguous, and you draw your own conclusions from it, perhaps it could depend on what feelings you want to feel on hearing it. I have found it far too upsetting to dwell on the second meaning (although it does creep in fromn time to time :\'(). I tell myself it must be a celebration of their love, like you say, a love that will never die, otherwise i'd probably go fully crazy instead of being only halfway there ^*()
Thanks aimi15. Yes, I would prefer the first meaning -- that their love will forever stay young. But that song also gives a strong sense of irony to the scene when he is crying on his way to Mexico. If we juxtapose this with the double meaning of a life of love cut short, it becomes a double sarcasm too painful to bear.
The fact that Jack never fully lived a life of love with anybody gives his short life and immediacy that I am sure Ennis appreciated in the end. Jack never grew old in the peace and security of that love he craved for. It was his fate to be cut down in his prime. But even as he died too soon, I believe he still had within him that same love inebriated with the spirit of his youth, his unflagging idealism. In this sense, his life and death are both memorials to the beauty and power of both interpretations.
That's done it... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(. Beautifully expressed though :\'(
aimi15, don't make me cry too! :(
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When i heard the song in the divorce scene it was really heartbreaking i mean Jack was really destroyed Ennis just rejected him and that song was reminding him that their love would be the same always and would never grow old. I'm one those who believe their love was a bond that was stronger than any other bond that the human being have know about.
But yes :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( all the songs in the movie show a feeling or reafirm their relationship i can tell you when they selected them they were expecting them to cause this exact feeling in all of us.
but well
The third one occured to me yesterday. In the scene where Jack is crying after being 'rejected' by Ennis after the divorce, you hear music from the award-winning song 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' I have always interpreted this as a commentary that tells us that the love between Ennis and Jack will never die -- in spite of everything. But yesterday, I have come to realize that it could also be interpreted as a commentary of Jack's love never growing old -- simply because Jack himself will die young in his love.
their love never grow old not even for ennis after jack death :\'( :\'( :\'(
another line was their conversation about the pentecost in wich jack tell him "When folks like you and me would go straight to hell" and he answered "speak for yourself you may be a sinner but i ain't got the oppurnity" i think that with this line Ennis told Jack that he was virgin
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another line was their conversation about the pentecost in wich jack tell him "When folks like you and me would go straight to hell" and he answered "speak for yourself you may be a sinner but i ain't got the oppurnity" i think that with this line Ennis told Jack that he was virgin
I was just going to post about this one - but I got a slightly different meaning out of it, Carlos. I saw it as Ennis flirting with Jack - and of course we all know that he got the opportunity (to be a sinner) a few hours later.....
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When i heard the song in the divorce scene it was really heartbreaking i mean Jack was really destroyed Ennis just rejected him and that song was reminding him that their love would be the same always and would never grow old. I'm one those who believe their love was a bond that was stronger than any other bond that the human being have know about.
that scene gets me every time too..its so sad, and heartbreaking..their love did last through time..Jack started out being so exicted and happy and then he got his hopes dashed..that scene always makes me sad :( :( :\'( :\'(
The dance scene where we hear "Nobody Loves You Like Me". It is Ennis that Jack is actually longing for in this scene!!!
I agree..Jack is defenly wanting Ennis..thanks for finding the pic :)
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another line was their conversation about the pentecost in wich jack tell him "When folks like you and me would go straight to hell" and he answered "speak for yourself you may be a sinner but i ain't got the oppurnity" i think that with this line Ennis told Jack that he was virgin
Carlos_H82, this is pretty good. Of course! This certainly is so full of double meanings. Quite flirtatious on one level, but it certainly goes deeper -- encapsulating about an underlying truth, as well as an awakening as far as love is concerned.
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another line was their conversation about the pentecost in wich jack tell him "When folks like you and me would go straight to hell" and he answered "speak for yourself you may be a sinner but i ain't got the oppurnity" i think that with this line Ennis told Jack that he was virgin
I was just going to post about this one - but I got a slightly different meaning out of it, Carlos. I saw it as Ennis flirting with Jack - and of course we all know that he got the opportunity (to be a sinner) a few hours later.....
NoReins, we sensed the same flirtatious undertone here. Thanks for affirming this.
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When i heard the song in the divorce scene it was really heartbreaking i mean Jack was really destroyed Ennis just rejected him and that song was reminding him that their love would be the same always and would never grow old. I'm one those who believe their love was a bond that was stronger than any other bond that the human being have know about.
that scene gets me every time too..its so sad, and heartbreaking..their love did last through time..Jack started out being so exicted and happy and then he got his hopes dashed..that scene always makes me sad :( :( :\'( :\'(
The dance scene where we hear "Nobody Loves You Like Me". It is Ennis that Jack is actually longing for in this scene!!!
I agree..Jack is defenly wanting Ennis..thanks for finding the pic :)
Sunflower79, do you also sense double mwanings in the songs that accompany the Ennis scenses -- especially the ones with Cassie?
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Linda Ronstadt Lyrics
Song: It's So Easy Lyrics Linda Ronstadt
"It's so easy to fall in love
It's so easy to fall in love
People tell me love's for fools
Here I go breaking all the rules"
Yeah, it is interesting,..about falling in love..and yes Cassie did fall in love with him, and at the same time Ennis really didn't love her..good point about the songs with Cassie and Ennis..Cassie in love and hopefull, and Ennis in love with Jack
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Linda Ronstadt Lyrics
Song: It's So Easy Lyrics Linda Ronstadt
"It's so easy to fall in love
It's so easy to fall in love
People tell me love's for fools
Here I go breaking all the rules"
Yeah, it is interesting,..about falling in love..and yes Cassie did fall in love with him, and at the same time Ennis really didn't love her..good point about the songs with Cassie and Ennis..Cassie in love and hopefull, and Ennis in love with Jack
So ironic. And so sad.
Songs say a lot in BBM. They add subtle commentary, and add remarkable depth by pointing the way to multiple meanings and interpretations.
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Maybe this is all wrong, but I wonder about Jack's line, "Doubt there's a filly can throw me". He's so confident of his own abilities at that point ( and hence, to me, so young), then later he's "thrown" by his love for Ennis. He's also, of course, thrown by the bulls - as if Jack is never going to get to any kind of stability, as indeed he doesn't.
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another line was their conversation about the pentecost in wich jack tell him "When folks like you and me would go straight to hell" and he answered "speak for yourself you may be a sinner but i ain't got the oppurnity" i think that with this line Ennis told Jack that he was virgin
I was just going to post about this one - but I got a slightly different meaning out of it, Carlos. I saw it as Ennis flirting with Jack - and of course we all know that he got the opportunity (to be a sinner) a few hours later.....
yup i know they were flirting also ;)
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Maybe this is all wrong, but I wonder about Jack's line, "Doubt there's a filly can throw me". He's so confident of his own abilities at that point ( and hence, to me, so young), then later he's "thrown" by his love for Ennis. He's also, of course, thrown by the bulls - as if Jack is never going to get to any kind of stability, as indeed he doesn't.
Well, there is that strange look on Ennis's face immediately after the boast from Jack. Makes me wonder if it is, in fact, what you had just stated...
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the song that Jack and Lurren dance too..(looked it up and found the words) It talks about being in love..and how Jack and Lurreen are supposed to be in love and all..but maybe its talking about Ennis and Jacks love for each other..and it speaks about thier relationship..being lonely, being in love, is going to work, we will be there for each other..when at first glance it would be seem that Jack and Lurreen are in love and all..but I am thinking the song represents Jack's and Ennis love for each other..
Mary McBride Lyrics (http://www.stlyrics.com/b/brokebackmountain.htm)
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one else, can’t you see?
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
No one else, can’t you see?
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
I know sometimes you felt so lonely
I know you felt so sad and blue
But this time, you know I’m the only
Love for you that’s coming through
With everything I say and do
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
I know sometimes you felt so lonely
I know you felt so sad and blue
But this time, you know I’m the only
Love for you that’s coming through
With everything I say and do
No one’s gonna love you like me
No one, no one.
No one, no one.
Jack was definitely thinking of Ennis, but I think the lyrics do apply to Lureen and Jack too. No-one's gonna love Ennis like Jack, and viceversa, but the reality is that Ennis isn't there, as far as Jack kmows, he's lost him forever. So he's got a choice of either pining for Ennis, whilst having to resort to chatting up (and being humilliated by) the likes of Jimbo :X, or maybe taking a chance on Lureen, who clearly adores him from the off, her dad's loaded, and she's "the only love that's coming through" for Jack at that time.Like another song says, "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with". Just my take on it :)
(OT: that scene is shot so cleverly, just before the pic that tpe posted, it looks like they're about to kiss (Lureen is silently screaming at him to kiss her!)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Fjldance1.jpg&hash=2bf0b60518dd3e3d05020c630755c015d4d7b51c)
then you see the back of Lureen's head, and then when you expect to see them kissing, instead you see that heartbreaking shot of Jack that tpe posted, wishing to God it was Ennis he was holding, and trying to accept it never would be :\'( That was one of the moments that really got me from the first time I watched :\'(
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Reading every post makes my heart ache. I don't think there will ever be one that fills the love of Ennis and Jack. Thanks for your thoughts.
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Jack was definitely thinking of Ennis, but I think the lyrics do apply to Lureen and Jack too. No-one's gonna love Ennis like Jack, and viceversa, but the reality is that Ennis isn't there, as far as Jack kmows, he's lost him forever. So he's got a choice of either pining for Ennis, whilst having to resort to chatting up (and being humilliated by) the likes of Jimbo :X, or maybe taking a chance on Lureen, who clearly adores him from the off, her dad's loaded, and she's "the only love that's coming through" for Jack at that time.Like another song says, "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with". Just my take on it :)
(OT: that scene is shot so cleverly, just before the pic that tpe posted, it looks like they're about to kiss (Lureen is silently screaming at him to kiss her!)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Fjldance1.jpg&hash=2bf0b60518dd3e3d05020c630755c015d4d7b51c)
then you see the back of Lureen's head, and then when you expect to see them kissing, instead you see that heartbreaking shot of Jack that tpe posted, wishing to God it was Ennis he was holding, and trying to accept it never would be :\'( That was one of the moments that really got me from the first time I watched :\'(
I most certainly agree about this also applying to Lureeen and Jack. It is what makes such double meanings so poigniant. We see two realities at play. They are completely separate, and yet they coalesce by the magic and complexity of the human sensibility to see more than what is seemingly there.
As Ethan has said, it makes our hearts ache.
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
thanks!!!!! at last someone thinks like me!!! you know it is the best way to say i love you without the proper words!!!
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tpe, regarding a love that will never grow old. I noticed this myself after first buying the soundtrack and listening to the song properly. I still wonder the true meaning of the words, i guess its just one of those things that is meant to be ambiguous, and you draw your own conclusions from it, perhaps it could depend on what feelings you want to feel on hearing it. I have found it far too upsetting to dwell on the second meaning (although it does creep in fromn time to time :\'(). I tell myself it must be a celebration of their love, like you say, a love that will never die, otherwise i'd probably go fully crazy instead of being only halfway there ^*()
Thanks aimi15. Yes, I would prefer the first meaning -- that their love will forever stay young. But that song also gives a strong sense of irony to the scene when he is crying on his way to Mexico. If we juxtapose this with the double meaning of a life of love cut short, it becomes a double sarcasm too painful to bear.
The fact that Jack never fully lived a life of love with anybody gives his short life and immediacy that I am sure Ennis appreciated in the end. Jack never grew old in the peace and security of that love he craved for. It was his fate to be cut down in his prime. But even as he died too soon, I believe he still had within him that same love inebriated with the spirit of his youth, his unflagging idealism. In this sense, his life and death are both memorials to the beauty and power of both interpretations.
:\'(
Beautiful insights everyone!
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This is a great thread! What about Jack's line at the end about "the rancher's wife." He pretends to be talking about a woman (presumably LaShawn), but he's really talking about Randall. I think Jack is lying to Ennis here about the gender of the person 1) to spare Ennis' feelings and 2) to keep up the charade of them really being interested in women.
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
No doubt at all, cham.
And in a similar vein, Ennis's "Ain't no reins on this one" is, to me, his way of telling Jack that what he feels is stronger than anything he's ever felt before - in other words, "Jack, I love you"
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
Ditto
o/c he ment- %)... what else could it be??
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Great thread! Really like the new interpretations for A Love That Will Never Grow Old and No One's Gonna Love You Like Me. I was always impressed with how perfectly the songs match the storyline.
Getting back on topic -- Here's something else -- When Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins, we hear the Lord's Prayer, starting with:
"...Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."
Always seemed odd that this scene starts with these words (and not, say, with their wedding vows).
I wonder if, as he was praying, Ennis might have had a particular "temptation" and "evil" in mind. Somebody name a Jack...?
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Great thread! Really like the new interpretations for A Love That Will Never Grow Old and No One's Gonna Love You Like Me. I was always impressed with how perfectly the songs match the storyline.
Getting back on topic -- Here's something else -- When Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins, we hear the Lord's Prayer, starting with:
"...Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."
Always seemed odd that this scene starts with these words (and not, say, with their wedding vows).
I wonder if, as he was praying, Ennis might have had a particular "temptation" and "evil" in mind. Somebody name a Jack...?
Yeah, I think you're right. It always strikes me that this scene follows directly from Ennis collapsing in the alley, punching the wall in frustration/anger/sorrow at leaving Jack. Starting with these lines makes the two scenes flow together perfectly - in both, Ennis is thinking of Jack.
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
thanks!!!!! at last someone thinks like me!!! you know it is the best way to say i love you without the proper words!!!
Yes, this is a wonderful example. Thanks Pierre. That was beautiful.
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When Jack's moaning about having to sleep up with the sheep, and he ends his rant by saying "Aguirre's got no right making us do something against the rules". I actually think Jack is just talking about the sheep thing, but the look on Ennis's face suggests he's thinking something different, he sort of frowns, and then looks kind of pensive.I'm not sure if he's thinking that Jack doesn't seem the type to give a toss about the rules,or maybe he's already thinking of them doing stuff against the rules that has nothing to do with sheep? :-\\ ;)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Frules.jpg&hash=9f2c98169863da528a196e8526a5b2145913456d)
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This is a great thread! What about Jack's line at the end about "the rancher's wife." He is pretends to be talking about a woman (presumably LaShawn), but he's really talking about Randall. I think Jack is lying to Ennis here about the gender of the person 1) to spare Ennis' feelings and 2) to keep up the charade of them really being interested in women.
I do think this is a good and much more subtle example. I guess it's because one is never 'entirely' sure whether he is telling a lie to hide a truth or telling the truth in the guise of a coded language that he knew Ennis would understand.
Quite subtle. Thanks stacp.
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Great thread! Really like the new interpretations for A Love That Will Never Grow Old and No One's Gonna Love You Like Me. I was always impressed with how perfectly the songs match the storyline.
Getting back on topic -- Here's something else -- When Ennis and Alma's wedding scene begins, we hear the Lord's Prayer, starting with:
"...Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..."
Always seemed odd that this scene starts with these words (and not, say, with their wedding vows).
I wonder if, as he was praying, Ennis might have had a particular "temptation" and "evil" in mind. Somebody name a Jack...?
Yeah, I think you're right. It always strikes me that this scene follows directly from Ennis collapsing in the alley, punching the wall in frustration/anger/sorrow at leaving Jack. Starting with these lines makes the two scenes flow together perfectly - in both, Ennis is thinking of Jack.
Yes, outwardly, it looks like part of the wedding service, but inwardly, it is a commentary on Ennis's inner turmoil.
Thanks justlikethisalways and NoReins.
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
No doubt at all, cham.
And in a similar vein, Ennis's "Ain't no reins on this one" is, to me, his way of telling Jack that what he feels is stronger than anything he's ever felt before - in other words, "Jack, I love you"
I totally agree. Also, when Ennis says "this thing," right before the "no reins" line, I think "this thing" he is talking about is Ennis' way of saying it's love between them.
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When Jack's moaning about having to sleep up with the sheep, and he ends his rant by saying "Aguirre's got no right making us do something against the rules". I actually think Jack is just talking about the sheep thing, but the look on Ennis's face suggests he's thinking something different, he sort of frowns, and then looks kind of pensive.I'm not sure if he's thinking that Jack doesn't seem the type to give a toss about the rules,or maybe he's already thinking of them doing stuff against the rules that has nothing to do with sheep? :-\\ ;)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh167%2Fgunner-girl%2Frules.jpg&hash=9f2c98169863da528a196e8526a5b2145913456d)
This is interesting, CrimsonSky. You know, I had always thought that Jack's line loaded with a double meaning. On one level, he is genuinely distressed that he has to spend a sleepless night alone with sheep. On another level, I think it is a ruse to get him and Ennis together in the camp at night. Remember the later line 'That ain't the point...'?
I do agree about Ennis's look. I think both of them use and understood a kind of subtle coded language all throughout the movie (as I had cited above).
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This is interesting, CrimsonSky. You know, I had always thought that Jack's line loaded with a double meaning. On one level, he is genuinely distressed that he has to spend a sleepless night alone with sheep. On another level, I think it is a ruse to get him and Ennis together in the camp at night. Remember the later line 'That ain't the point...'?
I do agree about Ennis's look. I think both of them use and understood a kind of subtle coded language all throughout the movie (as I had cited above).
OMG, yeah, it's so obvious now you've pointed it out, I can't believe I never thought of that :-[ Thanks tpe :)
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The third one occured to me yesterday. In the scene where Jack is crying after being 'rejected' by Ennis after the divorce, you hear music from the award-winning song 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' I have always interpreted this as a commentary that tells us that the love between Ennis and Jack will never die -- in spite of everything. But yesterday, I have come to realize that it could also be interpreted as a commentary of Jack's love never growing old -- simply because Jack himself will die young in his love.
I was discussing with a friend about the meaning of 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' yesterday.
In her opinion, as Jack says, "There ain't never enough time, never enough... ". Never enough time to grow bored with each other, to take each other for granted. Each meeting is a sweet and wonderful experience that many of us can no longer find with our soulmates because even on get-aways we are burdoned with real life. Real history, reality in general.
Don't know actually. Not a optimistic way to see love (and I personally don't agree), but another possible interpretation of those words
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This is interesting, CrimsonSky. You know, I had always thought that Jack's line loaded with a double meaning. On one level, he is genuinely distressed that he has to spend a sleepless night alone with sheep. On another level, I think it is a ruse to get him and Ennis together in the camp at night. Remember the later line 'That ain't the point...'?
I do agree about Ennis's look. I think both of them use and understood a kind of subtle coded language all throughout the movie (as I had cited above).
OMG, yeah, it's so obvious now you've pointed it out, I can't believe I never thought of that :-[ Thanks tpe :)
We should thank you CrimsonSky for pointing out this particular scene. I think the related scenes on BBM are so full of double meaning...
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I was discussing with a friend about the meaning of 'A Love That Will Never Grow Old' yesterday.
In her opinion, as Jack says, "There ain't never enough time, never enough... ". Never enough time to grow bored with each other, to take each other for granted. Each meeting is a sweet and wonderful experience that many of us can no longer find with our soulmates because even on get-aways we are burdoned with real life. Real history, reality in general.
Don't know actually. Not a optimistic way to see love (and I personally don't agree), but another possible interpretation of those words
"There ain't never enough time, never enough... ", Also interesting, frances, because I thought this also implied a premonition from Jack -- a hint in the screenplay, if you will -- that he will NOT have enough time. I think your interpretation here gives it at least a TRIPLE meaning. I think it is one of those lines so loaded with a lot of nuances and subtle hints...
Thank you.
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It's interesting that the movie uses the "Jack, I swear..." as the end and doesn't go on to to Ennis dreaming about Jack and the revealing line "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.
It does really leave the ending open and more mysterious
Jack, I swear... I won't forget you? I always loved you? I won't make the same mistake again? Anything Else?
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It's interesting that the movie uses the "Jack, I swear..." as the end and doesn't go on to to Ennis dreaming about Jack and the revealing line "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can’t fix it you’ve got to stand it.
It does really leave the ending open and more mysterious
Jack, I swear... I won't forget you? I always loved you? I won't make the same mistake again? Anything Else?
Jack, I swear connotes a universe of meaning, IMO. But I suspect that of all the possible meanings, 'I love you' is the most eloquent. If you append the word 'forever', it strings together in one phrase the entire world that is BBM: Ennis, Jack, love, and time/memory.
It is an interpretation most worthy of Proust.
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When i heard the song in the divorce scene it was really heartbreaking i mean Jack was really destroyed Ennis just rejected him and that song was reminding him that their love would be the same always and would never grow old. I'm one those who believe their love was a bond that was stronger than any other bond that the human being have know about.
that scene gets me every time too..its so sad, and heartbreaking..their love did last through time..Jack started out being so exicted and happy and then he got his hopes dashed..that scene always makes me sad :( :( :\'( :\'(
The dance scene where we hear "Nobody Loves You Like Me". It is Ennis that Jack is actually longing for in this scene!!!
I agree..Jack is defenly wanting Ennis..thanks for finding the pic :)
Sunflower79, do you also sense double mwanings in the songs that accompany the Ennis scenses -- especially the ones with Cassie?
When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:
"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."
No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to. That's my take, at least.
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When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:
"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."
No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to. That's my take, at least.
The songs are used so beautifully as commentary in this film. Such beautiful articulation without benefit of dialog.
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Ennis: "I was just sending a prayer of thanks"
Jack: "For what?"
Ennis: "for you forgettin' to bring that harmonica. I'm enjoyin' the peace and quiet"
Yeah! Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe? :-[ :-\\ :\'(
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Yeah! Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe? :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Agreed 200% Thanks, chameau
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Ennis: "I was just sending a prayer of thanks"
Jack: "For what?"
Ennis: "for you forgettin' to bring that harmonica. I'm enjoyin' the peace and quiet"
Yeah! Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe? :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Absolutely - if only Jack had kept his mouth shut there, Ennis might have said something a lot more profound.
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I have always loved the scene, too, when Jack is waiting for Ennis to come back after he runs into the bear. He's clearly worried but when Ennis comes back he tries to hide it, saying, "Where in the hell you been? I've been up with the sheep all day, and I get down here, hungry as hell, and find nothing but beans." Then he sees Ennis's face and uses almost exactly the same words to express shock and concern: "What in the hell happened, Ennis?" I.e., I was really worried about you . . . . I'm glad you're OK . . . . Can I help? Sighhh.
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Yeah! Right... Ennis was sending a prayer of thanks to be reunited with Jack... I love you Jack maybe? :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Agreed 200% Thanks, chameau
I double the percentage.
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I have always loved the scene, too, when Jack is waiting for Ennis to come back after he runs into the bear. He's clearly worried but when Ennis comes back he tries to hide it, saying, "Where in the hell you been? I've been up with the sheep all day, and I get down here, hungry as hell, and find nothing but beans." Then he sees Ennis's face and uses almost exactly the same words to express shock and concern: "What in the hell happened, Ennis?" I.e., I was really worried about you . . . . I'm glad you're OK . . . . Can I help? Sighhh.
Indeed. Jake's acting here is much too subtle to consider as a literal translation of the screenplay directives. This is Jack's way of hiding his concern for Ennis, the same way Ennis hides his emotions for Jack is other scenes. But the worry and concern in Jake's interpretation can only be gleaned from the way his eyes evoke worry and relief while his words seemingly bespeak anger. Very subtle articulation...
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I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash. Give it to you when we get to Signal
It is not only an offer for a loan but also a way not to lose contact with Ennis
Giving him a loan means the loan would have to be repaid - so they'd have to stay in touch for that.
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I can spare you a loan, bud, if you're short on cash. Give it to you when we get to Signal
It is not only an offer for a loan but also a way not to lose contact with Ennis
Giving him a loan means the loan would have to be repaid - so they'd have to stay in touch for that.
I don't need your money...
Translation: What I need is you, Jack...
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I don't need your money...
"I need you, but I don't want to show you"
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I don't need your money...
"I need you, but I don't want to show you"
Indeed.
I'm not in the poorhouse... SH*T
Translation: 'I'm not in love...right? Wrong!'
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Great lines tpe & Frances! :)
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"Besides that s.o.b. is cutting us out of a whole month's pay. It ain't right." I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere but Ennis really means he's cheating us out of a month to be together. I'm not prepared for this.
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"Besides that s.o.b. is cutting us out of a whole month's pay. It ain't right." I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere but Ennis really means he's cheating us out of a month to be together. I'm not prepared for this.
Yep, I agree. Actually I agree with everything I've read here so far. It's one of the great things about the film: there are so many ways to interpret so many scenes - and they don't contradict each other! Great thread!
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Well,in the scene in the Jack's parents house
When Ennis suggest to take the ashes up to BBM,then he looks at Jack's mother with the "begging" expression
and she looks at Mr.Twist ,like to ask for permission, but then the "stud duck" starts the speech
staring at Ennis with an angry expression :X :X then he spits in the cup...
yiek!!
We all know what he is thinking!! :X :X :s) :s)
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I adore the scenes with Jack's mother,her gently asking Ennis-"Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?"
and later - "You are welcome to go up in his room if you want." -finally- "You come back and see us again"
You can feel thats she loved her son so much, and knew that Ennis was the men that Jack loved...
so she wanted to embrace him and give him that love back .... %)
(sorry for my English-I want to say so much more but its to hard to me..) :-\\ ???
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I adore the scenes with Jack's mother,her gently asking Ennis-"Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?"
and later - "You are welcome to go up in his room if you want." -finally- "You come back and see us again"
You can feel thats she loved her son so much, and knew that Ennis was the men that Jack loved...
so she wanted to embrace him and give him that love back .... %)
(sorry for my English-I want to say so much more but its to hard to me..) :-\\ ???
Agree with you 100% hpv. And your English is perfect too :)
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I adore the scenes with Jack's mother,her gently asking Ennis-"Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?"
and later - "You are welcome to go up in his room if you want." -finally- "You come back and see us again"
You can feel thats she loved her son so much, and knew that Ennis was the men that Jack loved...
so she wanted to embrace him and give him that love back .... %)
(sorry for my English-I want to say so much more but its to hard to me..) :-\\ ???
Agree with you 100% hpv. And your English is perfect too :)
:t)
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"Besides that s.o.b. is cutting us out of a whole month's pay. It ain't right." I'm sure this has been mentioned elsewhere but Ennis really means he's cheating us out of a month to be together. I'm not prepared for this.
Exquisite.
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
You know, tpe, I do think that's exactly what Jack's mum was saying there. I will never be shaken from my belief that she knew about the shirts and, at least on some level, understood what they stood for. When Ennis visits and tells them he's known Jack a long time, since Brokeback, she knows that the other shirt is his...and she understands from his emotions that what Jack felt was reciprocated. She tells Ennis to go up to Jack's room so that he'll find the shirts and know for certain that while Jack may have talked of someone else (as his father says he did), it was Ennis - and only Ennis - that he loved.
:\'(
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You know, tpe, I do think that's exactly what Jack's mum was saying there. I will never be shaken from my belief that she knew about the shirts and, at least on some level, understood what they stood for. When Ennis visits and tells them he's known Jack a long time, since Brokeback, she knows that the other shirt is his...and she understands from his emotions that what Jack felt was reciprocated. She tells Ennis to go up to Jack's room so that he'll find the shirts and know for certain that while Jack may have talked of someone else (as his father says he did), it was Ennis - and only Ennis - that he loved.
:\'(
Thanks NoReins. I do believe she knew. And I believe she loved Ennis then -- like a son.
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I believe she did too. And I also always thought she knew.
Slightly OT, but there's a wonderful interview with Roberta Maxwell (in the cast section or whatever also has soundtrack, I think) and she speaks so beautifully about Jack's mom. She really GOT her character. This movie is perfect because each piece of it (from casting to soundtrack to cinematography) is perfect. Sorry, just had to say it.
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I believe she did too. And I also always thought she knew.
Slightly OT, but there's a wonderful interview with Roberta Maxwell (in the cast section or whatever also has soundtrack, I think) and she speaks so beautifully about Jack's mom. She really GOT her character. This movie is perfect because each piece of it (from casting to soundtrack to cinematography) is perfect. Sorry, just had to say it.
Yes FlwrChild . I think there is a separate thread just on jack's mom. And the interview is also posted somewhere, I believe. Thanks for bringing up the interview. She is amazing. You can see the many levels of meaning without her even uttering a word. :)
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
So true! :\'(
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
So true! :\'(
Don't cry LuvJackNasty, because there's more:
You come see us again.
Translation: 'You come see HIM here whenever you can.'
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
So true! :\'(
Don't cry LuvJackNasty, because there's more:
You come see us again.
Translation: 'You come see HIM here whenever you can.'
I never thought about it that way before. Beautiful.
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Great idea for a thread, tpe - since we know there is so much more to BBM then what it shows on the surface. :cr) I've learned so much already from these great posts!
There's one line from Ennis that has always left me aching for him without really knowing why; looking at it from your "double meaning" perspective has helped shed some light on why it bothered me so.
That last scene in the trailer with Junior, when she tells him "Daddy, you need more furniture", Ennis replies simply "you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'". Junior might take it at face value, that he's referring to material things, but really I think he's saying "without Jack, I ain't got nothing special, nothin' that's just for me, only for me, so what do I care about the bits and pieces around me now??".
And looking at it from the other side it would be true, too, If Ennis were really saying. "when I had Jack, I had everything I needed, HE was everything I needed, that sweet life he wanted would have felt good with that man by my side; don't have the will to do more than just get by without him to share this life with me."
Let be, let be ...
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Great idea for a thread, tpe - since we know there is so much more to BBM then what it shows on the surface. :cr) I've learned so much already from these great posts!
There's one line from Ennis that has always left me aching for him without really knowing why; looking at it from your "double meaning" perspective has helped shed some light on why it bothered me so.
That last scene in the trailer with Junior, when she tells him "Daddy, you need more furniture", Ennis replies simply "you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'". Junior might take it at face value, that he's referring to material things, but really I think he's saying "without Jack, I ain't got nothing special, nothin' that's just for me, only for me, so what do I care about the bits and pieces around me now??".
And looking at it from the other side it would be true, too, If Ennis were really saying. "when I had Jack, I had everything I needed, HE was everything I needed, that sweet life he wanted would have felt good with that man by my side; don't have the will to do more than just get by without him to share this life with me."
Let be, let be ...
I weep.
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
So true! :\'(
Don't cry LuvJackNasty, because there's more:
You come see us again.
Translation: 'You come see HIM here whenever you can.'
You have to twist the knife don't you? ;)
Beautiful interpretation.
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Great idea for a thread, tpe - since we know there is so much more to BBM then what it shows on the surface. :cr) I've learned so much already from these great posts!
There's one line from Ennis that has always left me aching for him without really knowing why; looking at it from your "double meaning" perspective has helped shed some light on why it bothered me so.
That last scene in the trailer with Junior, when she tells him "Daddy, you need more furniture", Ennis replies simply "you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'". Junior might take it at face value, that he's referring to material things, but really I think he's saying "without Jack, I ain't got nothing special, nothin' that's just for me, only for me, so what do I care about the bits and pieces around me now??".
And looking at it from the other side it would be true, too, If Ennis were really saying. "when I had Jack, I had everything I needed, HE was everything I needed, that sweet life he wanted would have felt good with that man by my side; don't have the will to do more than just get by without him to share this life with me."
Let be, let be ...
Another beautiful interpretation! :\'(
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Too many devastating double-meanings...
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The line that has double meaning for me is what the bartender said after Jack had just been rejected by Jimbo the rodeo clown. He says "You ever try calf roping?" I think he was needling Jack. In other words "You can't rope a man, try roping a calf." I didn't like Jimbo, and I think that bartender was being just plain MEAN! He HAD to have heard the exchange that had just taken place between Jack and Jimbo. :X
Donna
Wow, Donna, that's one I never got. We probably all agree that every single thing in the movie is intentional, but I haven't yet exhausted my study of "every single thing in the movie." But this is a good one. I did feel that was a painful scene but couldn't quite put my finger on it. First stupid Jimbo, then the bartender, then Jack just up and walks out like pissed. Anyway, that is excellent: the bartender says that about calf roping because Jack struck out with roping a guy?
You know what, though, is that guys always buy other guys drinks, don't they? Especially in a culture such as that, where guys totally hang out together and drink and all that. So why would Jack's offering to buy Jimbo a drink be seen as anything untoward? Or is it supposed to be apparent that people can tell Jack's "that way"? Or, do I not know the straight-guy rules? Wait a minute, Jimbo says, "If I let every [whatever he called Jack] buy me a drink, I'd be an alcoholic."
Well, I'm talkin' myself 'round in a circle. ^*() Later.
kathy
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The line that has double meaning for me is what the bartender said after Jack had just been rejected by Jimbo the rodeo clown. He says "You ever try calf roping?" I think he was needling Jack. In other words "You can't rope a man, try roping a calf." I didn't like Jimbo, and I think that bartender was being just plain MEAN! He HAD to have heard the exchange that had just taken place between Jack and Jimbo. :X
Donna
Wow, Donna, that's one I never got. We probably all agree that every single thing in the movie is intentional, but I haven't yet exhausted my study of "every single thing in the movie." But this is a good one. I did feel that was a painful scene but couldn't quite put my finger on it. First stupid Jimbo, then the bartender, then Jack just up and walks out like pissed. Anyway, that is excellent: the bartender says that about calf roping because Jack struck out with roping a guy?
You know what, though, is that guys always buy other guys drinks, don't they? Especially in a culture such as that, where guys totally hang out together and drink and all that. So why would Jack's offering to buy Jimbo a drink be seen as anything untoward? Or is it supposed to be apparent that people can tell Jack's "that way"? Or, do I not know the straight-guy rules? Wait a minute, Jimbo says, "If I let every [whatever he called Jack] buy me a drink, I'd be an alcoholic."
Well, I'm talkin' myself 'round in a circle. ^*() Later.
kathy
Hello Kathy. I think it was Jack's look, and not necessarily the offer of a free drink, that disturbed the clown.
The clown'r parting words and look have double meaning:
Save your money for your next entry fee, cowboy.
When he said this and when he looked at Jack and the bartender before he left, it was if the clown was saying: 'I know what you are and what you want, and I'm not giving it...' or 'You can't buy me.'
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This is a great thread! What about Jack's line at the end about "the rancher's wife." He pretends to be talking about a woman (presumably LaShawn), but he's really talking about Randall. I think Jack is lying to Ennis here about the gender of the person 1) to spare Ennis' feelings and 2) to keep up the charade of them really being interested in women.
At last...someone thinks like me as well!!! I absolutely agree on this one....
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Great idea for a thread, tpe - since we know there is so much more to BBM then what it shows on the surface. :cr) I've learned so much already from these great posts!
There's one line from Ennis that has always left me aching for him without really knowing why; looking at it from your "double meaning" perspective has helped shed some light on why it bothered me so.
That last scene in the trailer with Junior, when she tells him "Daddy, you need more furniture", Ennis replies simply "you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'". Junior might take it at face value, that he's referring to material things, but really I think he's saying "without Jack, I ain't got nothing special, nothin' that's just for me, only for me, so what do I care about the bits and pieces around me now??".
And looking at it from the other side it would be true, too, If Ennis were really saying. "when I had Jack, I had everything I needed, HE was everything I needed, that sweet life he wanted would have felt good with that man by my side; don't have the will to do more than just get by without him to share this life with me."
Let be, let be ...
OMG i'm going to cry!
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The line that has double meaning for me is what the bartender said after Jack had just been rejected by Jimbo the rodeo clown. He says "You ever try calf roping?" I think he was needling Jack. In other words "You can't rope a man, try roping a calf." I didn't like Jimbo, and I think that bartender was being just plain MEAN! He HAD to have heard the exchange that had just taken place between Jack and Jimbo. :X
Donna
At first I didn't what the pupose was of this bartender's line:
Here's how I see it now:
Jack hits on the rodeo clown and gets reject in front of the bartender.
Jack and the bartender SEE the rodeo clown go to the pool table to his other rodeo freinds where it looks like the rodeo clown tells them about Jack's pick up attempt.
The bartender says: 'You ever tried calf-roping?" IMPLYING THAT JACK MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER A RODEO EVENT WHERE HE WONT BE AROUND THAT RODEO CLOWN OR FREINDS BECAUSE THEY DONT TAKE TO KINDLY TO HOMOSEXUALS AND PERHAPS THE CLOWN AND HIS FREINDS MIGHT LET THE BULL GORE JACK. (clowns are not needed for calf-roping;)
of course Jack is humilated by the rodeo clown and see's him with his buddies.
Jack takes off in a hurry.....
So I am not sure if "you ever considered calf-ropin' is a double meaning, but rather more vague than anything else.
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The line that has double meaning for me is what the bartender said after Jack had just been rejected by Jimbo the rodeo clown. He says "You ever try calf roping?" I think he was needling Jack. In other words "You can't rope a man, try roping a calf." I didn't like Jimbo, and I think that bartender was being just plain MEAN! He HAD to have heard the exchange that had just taken place between Jack and Jimbo. :X
Donna
At first I didn't what the pupose was of this bartender's line:
Here's how I see it now:
Jack hits on the rodeo clown and gets reject in front of the bartender.
Jack and the bartender SEE the rodeo clown go to the pool table to his other rodeo freinds where it looks like the rodeo clown tells them about Jack's pick up attempt.
The bartender says: 'You ever tried calf-roping?" IMPLYING THAT JACK MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER A RODEO EVENT WHERE HE WONT BE AROUND THAT RODEO CLOWN OR FREINDS BECAUSE THEY DONT TAKE TO KINDLY TO HOMOSEXUALS AND PERHAPS THE CLOWN AND HIS FREINDS MIGHT LET THE BULL GORE JACK. (clowns are not needed for calf-roping;)
of course Jack is humilated by the rodeo clown and see's him with his buddies.
Jack takes off in a hurry.....
So I am not sure if "you ever considered calf-ropin' is a double meaning, but rather more vague than anything else.
Interesting interpretation! Another triple meaning!
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Alma Junior to Cassie "Maybe he's not the marrying kind"
- I warn you. He'll break you hearth
- Really don't know what he wants to do. He's a closed book to me.
- I hope him not to marry you. I'd be jealous
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Alma Junior to Cassie "Maybe he's not the marrying kind"
- I warn you. He'll break you hearth
- Really don't know what he wants to do. He's a closed book to me.
- I hope him not to marry you. I'd be jealous
Good one Frances, I'll go with the second interpretation
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Jack: ''Tell you what… truth is, sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it… '' :-[ :-\\ :\'(
Ennis I love you?
No doubt at all, cham.
And in a similar vein, Ennis's "Ain't no reins on this one" is, to me, his way of telling Jack that what he feels is stronger than anything he's ever felt before - in other words, "Jack, I love you"
I totally agree. Also, when Ennis says "this thing," right before the "no reins" line, I think "this thing" he is talking about is Ennis' way of saying it's love between them.
Oh, yes, I so agree. "Miss you," "this thing," "no reins" -- the closest they each came to saying I love you. How sad...but not really -- as long as they understood each other's language, knew what they were really saying, knew they were talking about love. Oh my heart...
kathy
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Great lines tpe & Frances! :)
I second that, tpe and frances. The "spare you a loan," the "I don't need your money," etc. This is really great, seeing the depth of the meanings in all this dialogue. And in their looks, too, as mentioned.
kathy
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You know, tpe, I do think that's exactly what Jack's mum was saying there. I will never be shaken from my belief that she knew about the shirts and, at least on some level, understood what they stood for. When Ennis visits and tells them he's known Jack a long time, since Brokeback, she knows that the other shirt is his...and she understands from his emotions that what Jack felt was reciprocated. She tells Ennis to go up to Jack's room so that he'll find the shirts and know for certain that while Jack may have talked of someone else (as his father says he did), it was Ennis - and only Ennis - that he loved.
:\'(
Thanks NoReins. I do believe she knew. And I believe she loved Ennis then -- like a son.
Me, too. All the moments of Ennis with Jack's mother are so wonderful. Either she knew about Ennis from Jack, or figured it out when he came, she certainly knew it that whole scene, that here was the man her son loved (oh I'm going to cry).
When she says, "You come back and see us," it feels to me more like, "You come back and see me and Jack." Certainly "us" doesn't mean her and horrible old Mr. T.
kathy
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I believe she did too. And I also always thought she knew.
Slightly OT, but there's a wonderful interview with Roberta Maxwell (in the cast section or whatever also has soundtrack, I think) and she speaks so beautifully about Jack's mom. She really GOT her character. This movie is perfect because each piece of it (from casting to soundtrack to cinematography) is perfect. Sorry, just had to say it.
Yes FlwrChild . I think there is a separate thread just on jack's mom. And the interview is also posted somewhere, I believe. Thanks for bringing up the interview. She is amazing. You can see the many levels of meaning without her even uttering a word. :)
Indeed. The looks and actions between Ennis and Jack's mom speak volumes!
kathy
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Great idea for a thread, tpe - since we know there is so much more to BBM then what it shows on the surface. :cr) I've learned so much already from these great posts!
There's one line from Ennis that has always left me aching for him without really knowing why; looking at it from your "double meaning" perspective has helped shed some light on why it bothered me so.
That last scene in the trailer with Junior, when she tells him "Daddy, you need more furniture", Ennis replies simply "you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'". Junior might take it at face value, that he's referring to material things, but really I think he's saying "without Jack, I ain't got nothing special, nothin' that's just for me, only for me, so what do I care about the bits and pieces around me now??".
And looking at it from the other side it would be true, too, If Ennis were really saying. "when I had Jack, I had everything I needed, HE was everything I needed, that sweet life he wanted would have felt good with that man by my side; don't have the will to do more than just get by without him to share this life with me."
Let be, let be ...
This is absolutely beautiful, what you said. I more or less took it at face value, Ennis's comment here to Junior. But I certainly see what he really meant, as you said. Beautiful and so sad.
kathy
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Okay, I'm a terrible brokie -- but I can't quite figure where "Let be, let be" is. Do tell, please.
kathy
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Okay, I'm a terrible brokie -- but I can't quite figure where "Let be, let be" is. Do tell, please.
kathy
Kathy,
This is a quote from the original short story. It refers to the flashback scene where Ennis comes up behind Jack and sings to him while Jack leans against Ennis by the fire. Annie Proulx wrote of Jack's memory:
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
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I was thinking of a line in the SS. Ennis is looking for a postcard of BBM and the store owner says he can get him a hundred and Ennis says "Ones enough"- I have enough love and regret in me over Jack. Jack was the one love of my life and now my Brokeback Mountain.
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I was thinking of a line in the SS. Ennis is looking for a postcard of BBM and the store owner says he can get him a hundred and Ennis says "Ones enough"- I have enough love and regret in me over Jack. Jack was the one love of my life and now my Brokeback Mountain.
One's enough.
This is enough to break your heart.
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When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:
"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."
No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to. That's my take, at least.
dalemidex, thank you for posting the words to this song. I hadn't heard this before and was planning on looking up the lyrics, knowing as you've all demonstrated how well the music in BBM is tied into each scene. Loved your take on this one! :)
There is another music moment that strikes me as being a foreshadowing of what is to come. The song "I don't want to say good-bye" is playing in the scene where Jack is dancing with Lashawn. When that ends we go to the conversation between Randall and Jack as they're waiting for the ladies at the end of the evening.
I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not. Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.
This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him?? He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.
My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! :-\\
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Okay, I'm a terrible brokie -- but I can't quite figure where "Let be, let be" is. Do tell, please.
kathy
Kathy,
This is a quote from the original short story. It refers to the flashback scene where Ennis comes up behind Jack and sings to him while Jack leans against Ennis by the fire. Annie Proulx wrote of Jack's memory:
"Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."
Thank you very much. I am a bad brokie -- I obviously need a refresher course on the story! Sounds like a wonderful thing to do this weekend...
kathy
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I was thinking of a line in the SS. Ennis is looking for a postcard of BBM and the store owner says he can get him a hundred and Ennis says "Ones enough"- I have enough love and regret in me over Jack. Jack was the one love of my life and now my Brokeback Mountain.
This is really a good one, LJN. I love reading everyone's interpretations.
kathy
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When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:
"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."
No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to. That's my take, at least.
dalemidex, thank you for posting the words to this song. I hadn't heard this before and was planning on looking up the lyrics, knowing as you've all demonstrated how well the music in BBM is tied into each scene. Loved your take on this one! :)
There is another music moment that strikes me as being a foreshadowing of what is to come. The song "I don't want to say good-bye" is playing in the scene where Jack is dancing with Lashawn. When that ends we go to the conversation between Randall and Jack as they're waiting for the ladies at the end of the evening.
I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not. Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.
This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him?? He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.
My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! :-\\
Excellent! This is breaking my heart. This is about my favorite song from the soundtrack; and your perspective on it with these scenes makes it even more touching.
kathy
kathy
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When Cassie and Ennis dance after the Cassie / Alma Jr scene in the bar, the song is Melissa:
"Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin fun,
But back home he'll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm..."
No matter who else there might be, Ennis will always only love Jack, and that's who he'll always ulitimately come back to. That's my take, at least.
dalemidex, thank you for posting the words to this song. I hadn't heard this before and was planning on looking up the lyrics, knowing as you've all demonstrated how well the music in BBM is tied into each scene. Loved your take on this one! :)
There is another music moment that strikes me as being a foreshadowing of what is to come. The song "I don't want to say good-bye" is playing in the scene where Jack is dancing with Lashawn. When that ends we go to the conversation between Randall and Jack as they're waiting for the ladies at the end of the evening.
I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not. Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.
This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him?? He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.
My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! :-\\
Great interpretation! This song always makes me so sad.
"Just like the light of the morning
After the darkness has gone
The shadow of my love is falling
On a place where the sun always shines
Don’t you know that’s where our hearts both belong?"
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Thanks all.
To see the songs provide commentary to their love: it shows how much this film is a complete work of art.
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Absolutely! 'A Love that Will Never Grow Old' is another perfect description of them and their love.
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I've always believed that part of the distress I read in Jack's face when he realizes that Randall is propositioning him is that he knows taking up with Randall will mean a step away from Ennis that his other trysts did not. Entering into a potentially ongoing affair with a peer is a far cry from a one night stand or a quick trip to Mexico.
This Teddy Tompson song to me is Jack's plea that he not be put into a position where he will have to decide to retreat from his dreams of Ennis, even a little. Ennis is all Jack wants, but by now he's come to know that the sweet life he wants with Ennis is not likely to happen; can he say no to a chance at comfort from another man like himself, when the opportunity is handed to him?? He doesn't WANT to say good-bye, but he doesn't want to be lonely all the time, either.
My take on this song and scene ... for what it's worth! :-\\
Oh what a great observation. I've watched this so many times but it never quite sunk in. Jack's face is not so much "am I being propositioned here?" but is instead more about what it would mean to pursue something with Randall more than just a hookup. That is indeed what is face is saying.
Thank you very much for sharing that!
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Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise! :P )
Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"
He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I? No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down." I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.
And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too. Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for. :-\\
Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. ???
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He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I? No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down." I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.
Same here
I do think he feels bad about hurting Cassie. He truly seems saddened by the situation with her. But, of course the primary issue is always the Jack subtext.
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Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise! :P )
Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"
He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I? No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down." I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.
And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too. Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for. :-\\
Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. ???
I tihnk these are remarkably beautiful and insightful...thank you!
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Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise! :P )
Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"
He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I? No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down." I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.
And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too. Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for. :-\\
Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. ???
Mississauga: I love what you said about Lureen, your interpretation of her meaning when she tells Ennis that BBM was Jack's favorite place. I've never really felt unkindly toward Lureen, but here's one question: when she told Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat and see Jack's parents, was that a cruelty, setting him up to be put down by the awful father? She much have known he was awful. Or was that innocent on her part, like she actually thought he might be able to take Jack's ashes to BBM?
kathy
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She'd presumably never met Jack's family so perhaps she didn't know what his father was like - I wondered once if now that Jack was dead she suddenly felt some sort of twinge of sympathy and hoped Jack's ashes would end up where he'd wanted them and that the family would let him take them. I've never felt unkidly about her either - just think she was the wrong woman married to the wrong man for the wrong reasons, and as Ennis said of Alma, "This ain't her fault".
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Mississauga: I love what you said about Lureen, your interpretation of her meaning when she tells Ennis that BBM was Jack's favorite place. I've never really felt unkindly toward Lureen, but here's one question: when she told Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat and see Jack's parents, was that a cruelty, setting him up to be put down by the awful father? She much have known he was awful. Or was that innocent on her part, like she actually thought he might be able to take Jack's ashes to BBM?
kathy
Good question, Kathy - :-\\
I certainly never thought of that as being done out of cruelty. I always thought that line was an acknowledgement on Lureen's part, meaning that Ennis had as much right to visit Jack's family and be involved in putting Jack to rest as Lureen herself did.
Plus ... I wonder how much interaction she would have had with Jack's folks?? Jack might not have shared as much with her in that regard, especially if he was trying to fit into the Newsome family. Talk about a contrast, how Lureen and Jack were raised, huh?? Maybe her suggestion that Ennis go to Lighting Flat was also her way of bowing out of Jack's life gracefully - admitting that she never held the truest part of him ever.
Well, now you got me thinkin' ... and yes ... it hurts! lol Nothing is ever simple in BBM, is it?? ;)
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And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
Well said, MissRed. You're right that Lureen didn't have to tell Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favourite place, especially given what she's just realised the significance of the place, as well as how long Jack's heart had belonged to someone else. That she does offer the information shows that she clearly cared a lot for Jack, despite the coldness of her tone, and she knows that he would have wanted Ennis to know how important he was to Jack.
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Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little garl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.
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She'd presumably never met Jack's family so perhaps she didn't know what his father was like - I wondered once if now that Jack was dead she suddenly felt some sort of twinge of sympathy and hoped Jack's ashes would end up where he'd wanted them and that the family would let him take them. I've never felt unkidly about her either - just think she was the wrong woman married to the wrong man for the wrong reasons, and as Ennis said of Alma, "This ain't her fault".
I guess I'd thought before that she was a cold person ... but from what you've all been sharing here, she definitely deserves our sympathy as much as Alma. True words, welshwitch - this wasn't the fault of either woman. :(
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And when I think a bit more, also doing a typical Jack boast - she'd have to be the prettiest gal, just like he was a great bull-rider, etc, except of course that he wasn't - wonder whether Ennis would have been thinking straight enough to have picked up the ambiguity here?
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Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little girl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.
I always kind of take this exchange, including the subsequent lines:
Jack: (hearing crying) Oh, you got a kid?
Ennis: Yeah two girls. Alma Jr & Jenny
Jack: I got a boy.
Ennis: Yeah?
Jack: Eight months old. Smiles a lot
..as Jack assuring Ennis that he is indeed normal and not a queer. I married a pretty girl and we have a kid, so it's okay, I'm like you are.
Why do I think this? I don't know for sure. It's not the dialog itself. The lines, when you think about them, are natural conversation between two friends who lost touch for a few years. Maybe it's the way Ennis reacts to them. Especially how he says "yeah?" when Jack says he has a son.
I dunno. I can't be sure that Jack intended it to come off this way...maybe he did. But I do think that...purposeful or happenstance...the exchange where Jack tells Ennis he is married with a son is reassuring to Ennis. Moments earlier he couldn't control himself but to hug and passionately kiss this other man, but, well this other man Jack clearly wasn't any different than Ennis. Ennis wasn't mixed up with some queer, but rather some other normal guy just like he was.
Intentional or not, if he's trying to convince anyone he's a normal guy, I'd think it is Ennis. They don't know that Alma saw them.
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.. snip ..
Jack assuring Ennis that he is indeed normal and not a queer. I married a pretty girl and we have a kid, so it's okay, I'm like you are.
Why do I think this? I don't know for sure. It's not the dialog itself. The lines, when you think about them, are natural conversation between two friends who lost touch for a few years. Maybe it's the way Ennis reacts to them. Especially how he says "yeah?" when Jack says he has a son.
I dunno. I can't be sure that Jack intended it to come off this way...maybe he did. But I do think that...purposeful or happenstance...the exchange where Jack tells Ennis he is married with a son is reassuring to Ennis. Moments earlier he couldn't control himself but to hug and passionately kiss this other man, but, well this other man Jack clearly wasn't any different than Ennis. Ennis wasn't mixed up with some queer, but rather some other normal guy just like he was.
Intentional or not, if he's trying to convince anyone he's a normal guy, I'd think it is Ennis. They don't know that Alma saw them.
Great interpretation of those lines, dalemidex ... I would never have thought of it that way! Thanks for sharing, it does make a lot of sense, given Ennis's view of himself. :)
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Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little garl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.
You're right -- I feel sure this is the case. "See? We're just two normal men with wives and kids and all," meanwhile trying to hide their raging arousal, even the floorboards trembling from the power of it.
kathy
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Don't know if this is exactly a double meaning, but I wonder whether when Jack tells Ennis and Alma, "I married the prettiest little girl in Childress, Texas" he was not just conveying information but trying ( much too late as she's seen the kiss) to give Alma the impression that he wasn't gay but just a settled married man, an old friend of Ennis's, "I ain't queer" kind of message.
I always kind of take this exchange, including the subsequent lines:
Jack: (hearing crying) Oh, you got a kid?
Ennis: Yeah two girls. Alma Jr & Jenny
Jack: I got a boy.
Ennis: Yeah?
Jack: Eight months old. Smiles a lot
..as Jack assuring Ennis that he is indeed normal and not a queer. I married a pretty girl and we have a kid, so it's okay, I'm like you are.
Why do I think this? I don't know for sure. It's not the dialog itself. The lines, when you think about them, are natural conversation between two friends who lost touch for a few years. Maybe it's the way Ennis reacts to them. Especially how he says "yeah?" when Jack says he has a son.
I dunno. I can't be sure that Jack intended it to come off this way...maybe he did. But I do think that...purposeful or happenstance...the exchange where Jack tells Ennis he is married with a son is reassuring to Ennis. Moments earlier he couldn't control himself but to hug and passionately kiss this other man, but, well this other man Jack clearly wasn't any different than Ennis. Ennis wasn't mixed up with some queer, but rather some other normal guy just like he was.
Intentional or not, if he's trying to convince anyone he's a normal guy, I'd think it is Ennis. They don't know that Alma saw them.
Good point! I really hadn't thought about Jack wanting to convince Ennis that he was a "regular guy" when the said this (the passion they just experienced notwithstanding). They have had absolutely no contact for four years except "I'm coming through..." and "You bet," and Ennis might think that Jack is indeed really some kind of queer by now, so this is said by Jack as much to Ennis as to Alma since, as you said, they don't know that she saw them kissing.
God, there is so much in this to watch and listen to and contemplate...
kathy
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Thank you all. There is so much to ponder here in the latest posts. Seiing some of these, I wished I could have shared them in the BBM discussion group I attended last Friday.
There seems to be no end to richness of meaning here. So many layers. So many lights.
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Watching BBM again this weekend a couple of other lines hit me as meaning more than they seemed to on the surface (gee, big surprise! :P )
Coffee shop scene; Ennis to Cassie: "I was probably no fun, anyways, was I?"
He really struggles to get these words out, and now I can see this meaning also "I didn't give you everything you should have expected and deserved from me, did I? No more than I did for Jack. I let you both down." I think here he's apologizing to Jack as well as to Cassie.
And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
I'm feeling more kindly toward Lureen, after this ... I think she did love Jack, and was maybe sad for him, too. Her growing brittleness protected her, certainly, but didn't have to mean she was hostile toward Jack about what he couldn't give her since his heart was already spoken for. :-\\
Might be way off the mark with these as I was in a particularly mellow mood that day .. ???
Wow great post Miss-red!
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I second the motion that Lureen was being kind to Ennis by volunteering more info than needed. Also when she said he drank a lot--it's not necessarily good information, but it does let Ennis know a little bit more about Jack.
Also, I certainly think Jack is very self-conscious about the fact that people tend to think he's gay. (Rodeo clown, tire-iron guys, Aguirre, Randal, maybe LD Newhouse...) Certainly mentioning a wife and kids would be a way for Jack to try to squelch any suspicions Alma has. (He doesn't know that Alma saw, but he might sense that she's troubled, and he might feel like he's got stubble burn on his face, that he might have saliva on his lips, that his shirt might not be tucked in straight, that his hat might be on crooked, that his legs are shaking, that his heart is pounding, that his jeans....well, never mind.) ^-^
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I second the motion that Lureen was being kind to Ennis by volunteering more info than needed. Also when she said he drank a lot--it's not necessarily good information, but it does let Ennis know a little bit more about Jack.
Also, I certainly think Jack is very self-conscious about the fact that people tend to think he's gay. (Rodeo clown, tire-iron guys, Aguirre, Randal, maybe LD Newhouse...) Certainly mentioning a wife and kids would be a way for Jack to try to squelch any suspicions Alma has. (He doesn't know that Alma saw, but he might sense that she's troubled, and he might feel like he's got stubble burn on his face, that he might have saliva on his lips, that his shirt might not be tucked in straight, that his hat might be on crooked, that his legs are shaking, that his heart is pounding, that his jeans....well, never mind.) ^-^
LOL, that last. Yep -- it's so hot in here!
kathy
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I second the motion that Lureen was being kind to Ennis by volunteering more info than needed. Also when she said he drank a lot--it's not necessarily good information, but it does let Ennis know a little bit more about Jack.
Also, I certainly think Jack is very self-conscious about the fact that people tend to think he's gay. (Rodeo clown, tire-iron guys, Aguirre, Randal, maybe LD Newhouse...) Certainly mentioning a wife and kids would be a way for Jack to try to squelch any suspicions Alma has. (He doesn't know that Alma saw, but he might sense that she's troubled, and he might feel like he's got stubble burn on his face, that he might have saliva on his lips, that his shirt might not be tucked in straight, that his hat might be on crooked, that his legs are shaking, that his heart is pounding, that his jeans....well, never mind.) ^-^
Yeah, I always thought there might be something that made their attraction to each other fairly obvious to Alma, even if she hadn't seen them kissing ;)
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Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?
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Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?
Yes, this is interesting. I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.
hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen). And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...
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Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?
Yes, this is interesting. I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.
hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen). And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...
I know exactly what you mean tpe, I think Lureen's approach to men is very similar to Jack's, they know what they want and go all out to get it, in fact they'd be ideally suited if it wasn't for Jack being gay.
When Jack meets Lureen, he's still pining for Ennis, reduced to seeking casual sex with other men(with all the danger that entails), and he's skint,and then Lureen comes along and offers him a way out of all that, so I think he just goes with the flow and decides it's gotta be worth a try.
His "fast or slow" comment I think shows that he knows deep down that Lureen's not right for him,he's the one who breaks off the kiss, and for the most part, he looks terrified (the phrase "rabbit caught in the headlights" always springs to my mind when I watch that scene), and he's not really sure what to do, he's certainly not the confident, assured lover he is with Ennis in FNIT or SNIT. but he's willing to let Lureen try and show him the way, so to speak.
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I know exactly what you mean tpe, I think Lureen's approach to men is very similar to Jack's, they know what they want and go all out to get it, in fact they'd be ideally suited if it wasn't for Jack being gay.
When Jack meets Lureen, he's still pining for Ennis, reduced to seeking casual sex with other men(with all the danger that entails), and he's skint,and then Lureen comes along and offers him a way out of all that, so I think he just goes with the flow and decides it's gotta be worth a try.
His "fast or slow" comment I think shows that he knows deep down that Lureen's not right for him,he's the one who breaks off the kiss, and for the most part, he looks terrified (the phrase "rabbit caught in the headlights" always springs to my mind when I watch that scene), and he's not really sure what to do, he's certainly not the confident, assured lover he is with Ennis in FNIT or SNIT. but he's willing to let Lureen try and show him the way, so to speak.
This is beautifully said. Thanks CrimsonSky. Lureen and Jack are indeed a match. "rabbit caught in the headlights" -- this is so exquisite. It is so spot on. The enigmatic "fast or slow" lends itself to your interpretation about his confidence in relation to the love scenes with Ennis.
Thank you.
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In fact he is underneath her, as he is under Ennis in the FNIT, and I wonder if he's not sure what to do next? He knows the direction he's going in, and it's not hers. I even wondered once if he had any doubts about whether he could do it with a woman - in the ss Ennis says that's no problem for him but I'm not so sure about Jack. In fact I went off on a tack about his trying to manage until Lureen got pregnant then as soon as he could hi-tailing it back to try to find Ennis, like a kid running for his mother.
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I know exactly what you mean tpe, I think Lureen's approach to men is very similar to Jack's, they know what they want and go all out to get it, in fact they'd be ideally suited if it wasn't for Jack being gay.
When Jack meets Lureen, he's still pining for Ennis, reduced to seeking casual sex with other men(with all the danger that entails), and he's skint,and then Lureen comes along and offers him a way out of all that, so I think he just goes with the flow and decides it's gotta be worth a try.
His "fast or slow" comment I think shows that he knows deep down that Lureen's not right for him,he's the one who breaks off the kiss, and for the most part, he looks terrified (the phrase "rabbit caught in the headlights" always springs to my mind when I watch that scene), and he's not really sure what to do, he's certainly not the confident, assured lover he is with Ennis in FNIT or SNIT. but he's willing to let Lureen try and show him the way, so to speak.
This is beautifully said. Thanks CrimsonSky. Lureen and Jack are indeed a match. "rabbit caught in the headlights" -- this is so exquisite. It is so spot on. The enigmatic "fast or slow" lends itself to your interpretation about his confidence in relation to the love scenes with Ennis.
Thank you.
Thanks tpe :) I have to admit, the scenes where Jack and Lureen meet and get together are probably my favourite non Ennis and Jack scenes :)
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Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?
Yes, this is interesting. I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.
hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen). And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...
Yes -- Jack just was his usual gorgeous self and with not too much effort lured her in and let her take the reins. Kind of an overt role-reversal, and it seems it suited them both at the time.
kathy
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Different section, but when Jack says to Lureen, "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're going in", I wonder what his motives are. Overtly he's encouraging her because she's made it pretty obvious what she wants and he doesn;t want her to feel she's gone too far, but I wonder if he's both relieved to have someone whom he can get hold of (sorry!) without too much persuasion and someone whose financial status he's checked up on; as alma Jr later says to Cassie, "You're good enough" - the direction she's going in is the one that's safest for him, but it's not going to be one he follows for any length of time before going back to find Ennis. I don;t thonk Jack ever has any doubts about his own preferences, so id this just another example of Jack's shading the truth?
Yes, this is interesting. I had thought about it also, but not t a level that you now give here.
hathaway has said that the role of Lureeen was very difficult for her because in reality, she was not brash and forward as to getting what he wanted (certainly the case with Lureen). And yet, your comment makes me think if this is a case of the prey actually stalking the predator, if you know what I mean...
Yes -- Jack just was his usual gorgeous self and with not too much effort lured her in and let her take the reins. Kind of an overt role-reversal, and it seems it suited them both at the time.
kathy
Indeed kathy, it is as much a role reversal as a double meaning. Wonderful insight. Layers and contrasts....
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Don't know if it's the right place to post it.
Anyway....
"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Ennis makes a joke.
But Jack's reaction is pensive, serious, compassionate, because he knows that there's too much truth in what Ennis says.
Ennis himself accompanies his words with an half smile but then with a long, direct serious look.
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Don't know if it's the right place to post it.
Anyway....
"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Ennis makes a joke.
But Jack's reaction is pensive, serious, compassionate, because he knows that there's too much truth in what Ennis says.
Ennis himself accompanies his words with an half smile but then with a long, direct serious look.
"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Translation: It is you that makes me speak...
Thank you, frances.
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Don't know if it's the right place to post it.
Anyway....
"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Ennis makes a joke.
But Jack's reaction is pensive, serious, compassionate, because he knows that there's too much truth in what Ennis says.
Ennis himself accompanies his words with an half smile but then with a long, direct serious look.
"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Translation: It is you that makes me speak...
Thank you, frances.
Well,that's of course is the time when Ennis is drawn to Jack for real,like he find at last his soulmate ,
someone that he pours out his heart to,because we all know how lonely he was before he meets Jack
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You know, I was thinking this morning about have few lines are actually spoken in this film! With the expection of a few choice scenes there aren't lots of examples of verbal exposition. Really, the dialogue is so sparse it kind of stuns you when you think about how much we have fleshed out the story in our heads with all the subtext. Guess all these double meanings have served their purpose! :)
On that note ... I remembered the line Cassie says to Junior "you don't say much, but you get your point across". In general terms, that line could speak for the whole film, I think.
Specific to Cassie, though, it brings to mind the fact that Ennis also doesn't say much, but I'm thinking he's NOT getting his point across so well, or Cassie wouldn't have to ask Junior if Ennis would ever see fit to settle down again. She has to go to the daughter of the man she's been seeing and sleeping with for some while now to get a handle on his intentions. She's also acknowledging that she appreciates a straight forward response that she can understand.
This line really shows Cassie's frustration at how hard Ennis is to read, IMO.
Not surprising, considering the mixed signals his body and heart had to be throwing off, I guess.
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"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Translation: It is you that makes me speak...
Thank you, frances.
Well,that's of course is the time when Ennis is drawn to Jack for real,like he find at last his soulmate ,
someone that he pours out his heart to,because we all know how lonely he was before he meets Jack
That's beautiful, your saying this scene is the time Ennis has realized and acknowledges that here is one special friend... (And it's the first time Jack says "Friend," too.) For Ennis to tell someone about his life -- he's probably darn near never done that before. And not only that, but his telling Jack "That's the most I spoke in a year" and the quirk of a smile on his face -- that is one loaded moment, full of growing camaraderie but more -- fraught with sexual potential. Then, the looks that gorgeous Jack gives Ennis throughout that whole interchange are some of the sexiest come-on looks I've ever seen excuse me...
kathy
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"Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year"
Translation: It is you that makes me speak...
Thank you, frances.
Well,that's of course is the time when Ennis is drawn to Jack for real,like he find at last his soulmate ,
someone that he pours out his heart to,because we all know how lonely he was before he meets Jack
That's beautiful, your saying this scene is the time Ennis has realized and acknowledges that here is one special friend... (And it's the first time Jack says "Friend," too.) For Ennis to tell someone about his life -- he's probably darn near never done that before. And not only that, but his telling Jack "That's the most I spoke in a year" and the quirk of a smile on his face -- that is one loaded moment, full of growing camaraderie but more -- fraught with sexual potential. Then, the looks that gorgeous Jack gives Ennis throughout that whole interchange are some of the sexiest come-on looks I've ever seen excuse me...
kathy
Wow..Thar's exactly my opinion, as I said in another thread great minds think alike... O0 <^(
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You know, I was thinking this morning about have few lines are actually spoken in this film! With the expection of a few choice scenes there aren't lots of examples of verbal exposition. Really, the dialogue is so sparse it kind of stuns you when you think about how much we have fleshed out the story in our heads with all the subtext. Guess all these double meanings have served their purpose! :)
On that note ... I remembered the line Cassie says to Junior "you don't say much, but you get your point across". In general terms, that line could speak for the whole film, I think.
Specific to Cassie, though, it brings to mind the fact that Ennis also doesn't say much, but I'm thinking he's NOT getting his point across so well, or Cassie wouldn't have to ask Junior if Ennis would ever see fit to settle down again. She has to go to the daughter of the man she's been seeing and sleeping with for some while now to get a handle on his intentions. She's also acknowledging that she appreciates a straight forward response that she can understand.
This line really shows Cassie's frustration at how hard Ennis is to read, IMO.
Not surprising, considering the mixed signals his body and heart had to be throwing off, I guess.
Yes, didn't Alma Jr. so resemble her father at that moment when she talks to Cassie? There is something wonderfully double-edged in everything she says (and looks!) in that scene.
Very spare, but very rich in meaning.
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Yes, I always wonder about "Maybe Daddy's not the marrying kind". Does Alma Jr have some sort of inkling what went wrong in her father's marriage? Is she trying to hint to Cassie about something she herself isn't sure of? If so, she might, had Cassie taken the hint, have saved her a lot of heartbreak.
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Yes, I always wonder about "Maybe Daddy's not the marrying kind". Does Alma Jr have some sort of inkling what went wrong in her father's marriage? Is she trying to hint to Cassie about something she herself isn't sure of? If so, she might, had Cassie taken the hint, have saved her a lot of heartbreak.
Hello welshwitch. Patriot1 started a thread a while back about Cassie and her dealings with Alma Jr. and Ennis. You will find this point discussed very similar to what you suggested. This was precisely my feeling. I think you are quite correct here...
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Yes, I always wonder about "Maybe Daddy's not the marrying kind". Does Alma Jr have some sort of inkling what went wrong in her father's marriage? Is she trying to hint to Cassie about something she herself isn't sure of? If so, she might, had Cassie taken the hint, have saved her a lot of heartbreak.
Hello welshwitch. Patriot1 started a thread a while back about Cassie and her dealings with Alma Jr. and Ennis. You will find this point discussed very similar to what you suggested. This was precisely my feeling. I think you are quite correct here...
Me too.
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Another one.
"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
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Another one.
"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
This is the truth. That is why it breaks my heart.
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Another one.
"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
This is the truth. That is why it breaks my heart.
Yes, something just shoots through me every time I hear him say it. It's so quiet, so simple and so powerful.
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How terrible to for Ennis to remember this as the last thing Jack says to him.
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Another one.
"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
omg :\'(
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Another one.
"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
What's a day without BBM tears? :\'( Beautiful Frances.
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In the Opening Scene ,
This scene is striking in its lack of dialog as the two main characters first meet and assess each other in a silent sequence of western male posturing.
The peace and quiet that has flowed from the film's beginning is now loudly disrupted by a passing train.
First we have the tranquility and pastoral mood of the mountain,than all that follows interupting their love
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"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
I agree with this...
I've always felt that Jack was saying, I love you Ennis, but he was also a little angry because no matter how mad he is at Ennis it still breaks his heart to see him hurting... he is talking about "quiting" Ennis but Ennis' tears break down all his resolve and make him feel Ennis' pain as much as his own... something he maybe didn't want to do at that point, given all they had just said to each other.
Maybe in a way his "Damn you, Ennis" could also be interpreted as Jack saying, "If you would just admit you love me maybe neither of us would be hurting right now" or "maybe it's because of me that you are like this, but it's your fault we are both lonely and miserable."
Just my thoughts...
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I supppose "Damn you" is also a compressed expression of extreme frustration, as one sometimes says "Damn it all" at the beginning of the staing of a point one wants to emphasise.
As far as the train is concerned, it's always been the great symbol of American industrialisation/mechanisation/progress - this one is the antithesis of the pastoral world in which Ennis spends much of his life, but from which Jack moves away - he makes his living selling machines, after all.
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In the Opening Scene ,
This scene is striking in its lack of dialog as the two main characters first meet and assess each other in a silent sequence of western male posturing.
The peace and quiet that has flowed from the film's beginning is now loudly disrupted by a passing train.
First we have the tranquility and pastoral mood of the mountain,than all that follows interupting their love
Of course, I think even their silent looks have double meanings here: partly cautious and challenging, and also partly affirming. How many times have we encountered such looks before?
Thanks!
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"Damn you Ennis."
Everything Jack says and does, even in anger, (especially in anger) springs from the fact that he
loves Ennis above all others, above everything else in his life.
Damn you Ennis = I love you Ennis. You're breaking my heart
I agree with this...
I've always felt that Jack was saying, I love you Ennis, but he was also a little angry because no matter how mad he is at Ennis it still breaks his heart to see him hurting... he is talking about "quiting" Ennis but Ennis' tears break down all his resolve and make him feel Ennis' pain as much as his own... something he maybe didn't want to do at that point, given all they had just said to each other.
Maybe in a way his "Damn you, Ennis" could also be interpreted as Jack saying, "If you would just admit you love me maybe neither of us would be hurting right now" or "maybe it's because of me that you are like this, but it's your fault we are both lonely and miserable."
Just my thoughts...
I do think Jack always knew that Ennis loved him. But I know what you mean here: Jack wanted the life to go with that love. I also felt that when he damns Ennis, he damns himself, for being so much in love that it hurts.
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As far as the train is concerned, it's always been the great symbol of American industrialisation/mechanisation/progress - this one is the antithesis of the pastoral world in which Ennis spends much of his life, but from which Jack moves away - he makes his living selling machines, after all.
This is the first thing we contrast with the pastoral world of the Mountain: the world of Signal and the plains. The image of the freight train is of course one of the most powerful symbols of small town USA. Their Main Steets always lie in proximity to the train routes -- an affirmation that the railways are the lifeblood of the communities. How striking does all this contrast with the silence and isolation of the Mountain.
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In a sense, too, the train is a connection with the rest of the world, that world in which so much is happening that they don't know about and never seem aware of later. The mountain is a place that's not connected with, if you like, the lower world - in the ss they look down "suspended above ordinary affairs" - here the train passes Ennis by and Jack drives in the opposite direction. In a way that symbolises them; Ennis cut off and isolated, Jack at odds with the wordl around, as he's often at odds with authority and convention.
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Whew -- the last number of posts are just beautiful, the interpretation of these scenes. It's almost too much for me at the moment, too much to contemplate so deeply. Maybe I'm just hungry -- almost lunchtime. :P But just to say I really appreciate these astute observations articulately expressed. Thank you all.
kathy
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The train at the beginning had a different meaning to me...
I notice how Ennis is standing by Aguirres' trailer and the train comes by. The loud train with it's barreling clacking noises always startles me and I take this to mean that Ennis too is about to be given a loud awakening, so to speak. Then the train rushes by, breaking up the picture of Ennis against the trailer, it is almost like we are getting snapshots of the old Ennis because in the next shot we see the train making it's exit, right while Jack enters the scene in his loud unapologetic cranky truck. I don't think it's an accident that as the train in leaving, Jack arrives to shake up Ennis' old life.
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The train at the beginning had a different meaning to me...
I notice how Ennis is standing by Aguirres' trailer and the train comes by. The loud train with it's barreling clacking noises always startles me and I take this to mean that Ennis too is about to be given a loud awakening too, so to speak. Then the train rushes by, breaking up the picture of Ennis against the trailer, it is almost like we are getting snapshots of the old Ennis because as we see the next shot shows the train making it's exit, we see and hear Jack in his loud unapologetic cranky truck. I don't think it's an accident that as the train in leaving, Jack arrives to shake up Ennis' old life.
Interesting perspective. To me it's similar but just a little different. Ennis is unaffected by the noisy clamor of the train passing. Life passing him by in some measures and leaving him standing there. When Jack came, however, it's in the quiet, waiting silence that Jack begins to have an effect on him.
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The train at the beginning had a different meaning to me...
I notice how Ennis is standing by Aguirres' trailer and the train comes by. The loud train with it's barreling clacking noises always startles me and I take this to mean that Ennis too is about to be given a loud awakening too, so to speak. Then the train rushes by, breaking up the picture of Ennis against the trailer, it is almost like we are getting snapshots of the old Ennis because as we see the next shot shows the train making it's exit, we see and hear Jack in his loud unapologetic cranky truck. I don't think it's an accident that as the train in leaving, Jack arrives to shake up Ennis' old life.
Interesting perspective. To me it's similar but just a little different. Ennis is unaffected by the noisy clamor of the train passing. Life passing him by in some measures and leaving him standing there. When Jack came, however, it's in the quiet, waiting silence that Jack begins to have an effect on him.
I just love all these perspectives! I think I'm feel the most resonance with your words, dalemidex. And probably, we might see the same scenes later on when our own lives are a slightly different color or focus, and see the scene in another way... That's what's so rich about this movie -- like a prism of interpretations.
kathy
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Thanks, Kathy. Learning how the movie has different meanings to different people broadens my own appreciation for it. As you said, so much depends on your own place and point in life.
You know, Ennis' action in that scene reminds me of something from my background. I grew up on a dairy farm and absolutely love cows. If you've ever driven by them in a pasture, you'll notice they don't pay a bit of attention. Our farm was adjacent to train tracks and the cows were equally oblivious as they came and went. But walk toward a cow and they definitley notice, reacting cautiously, skeptically, turning away.
Thinking about it, there are a lot of qualities in Ennis I love in cows. Somewhat docile and seeminly unaffected. Wary and skeptical. A bit rough but surprisingly gentle when they let you in, even if they seem a little awkward and tentative. Hmmm. Perhaps another reason why, in spite of finding Jack irresistible, it is Ennis my thoughts are drawn to.
Thanks for indulging me on this!
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Sorry for getting so off topic here......
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So many different thoughts as what the passing train means ...I'm really perplexed!!
It's so mind blowing,to read all those interpretations of everyone :t)
<^( <^(
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So many different thoughts as what the passing train means ...I'm really perplexed!!
It's so mind blowing,to read all those interpretations of everyone :t)
<^( <^(
Yes, it is amazing how one movie can bring forth so many different meanings.
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So many different thoughts as what the passing train means ...I'm really perplexed!!
It's so mind blowing,to read all those interpretations of everyone :t)
<^( <^(
Yes, it is amazing how one movie can bring forth so many different meanings.
I'm continually amazed also...
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So many different thoughts as what the passing train means ...I'm really perplexed!!
It's so mind blowing,to read all those interpretations of everyone :t)
<^( <^(
Yes, it is amazing how one movie can bring forth so many different meanings.
Yes it is amazing and I love reading all of the different interpretations. :)
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So many different thoughts as what the passing train means ...I'm really perplexed!!
It's so mind blowing,to read all those interpretations of everyone :t)
<^( <^(
Yes, it is amazing how one movie can bring forth so many different meanings.
Yes it is amazing and I love reading all of the different interpretations. :)
I agree, these are wonderful interpretations!
If I may add yet another interpretation -- albeit a rather simple-minded one:
I saw the train as a metaphor for Ennis:
A train cannot choose its own path.
It must stay on rails laid down by others.
And to leave those rails means sure disaster.
Also, to operate safely, trains must be separated by long distances.
So a train is a "loner" of sorts.
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Thanks, Kathy. Learning how the movie has different meanings to different people broadens my own appreciation for it. As you said, so much depends on your own place and point in life.
You know, Ennis' action in that scene reminds me of something from my background. I grew up on a dairy farm and absolutely love cows. If you've ever driven by them in a pasture, you'll notice they don't pay a bit of attention. Our farm was adjacent to train tracks and the cows were equally oblivious as they came and went. But walk toward a cow and they definitley notice, reacting cautiously, skeptically, turning away.
Thinking about it, there are a lot of qualities in Ennis I love in cows. Somewhat docile and seeminly unaffected. Wary and skeptical. A bit rough but surprisingly gentle when they let you in, even if they seem a little awkward and tentative. Hmmm. Perhaps another reason why, in spite of finding Jack irresistible, it is Ennis my thoughts are drawn to.
Thanks for indulging me on this!
That's beautiful, your words about Ennis. I love the cow analogy! All the ways you said, and especially in that first scene, his actions are just as you describe -- cautious and turning away (but then he peeks), while Jack's strutting like a peacock. What a pair! <^(
And perhaps I'm drawn to Ennis for his depth. Jack is right out there on the surface (and your "irresistable" is the perfect word for him); but Ennis, you have to look a little deeper. I guess I relate to that. Or maybe it's as simple as, the person who isn't all out there on the surface is a bit more of a challenge, for people who like that kind of challenge -- must see what's inside there...
kathy
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I agree, these are wonderful interpretations!
If I may add yet another interpretation -- albeit a rather simple-minded one:
I saw the train as a metaphor for Ennis:
A train cannot choose its own path.
It must stay on rails laid down by others.
And to leave those rails means sure disaster.
Also, to operate safely, trains must be separated by long distances.
So a train is a "loner" of sorts.
Lovely -- very poetic...
kathy
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I don't know if this exactly goes here, or if it's more like a "symbolism" thing, but the train -- I am also always startled by the noise right then in that scene -- reminds me of this:
Ennis in bed with Alma, when he flips her over and gives out a big loud grunt (loud in the context of a dark and quiet bedroom) / and wham! the scene immediately goes to the really loud rodeo scene and Jack going out of the chute. That always startles me also. That rough act in the bed shocks us awake and then the rodeo really shocks us awake even more.
kathy
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I don't know if this exactly goes here, or if it's more like a "symbolism" thing, but the train -- I am also always startled by the noise right then in that scene -- reminds me of this:
Ennis in bed with Alma, when he flips her over and gives out a big loud grunt (loud in the context of a dark and quiet bedroom) / and wham! the scene immediately goes to the really loud rodeo scene and Jack going out of the chute. That always startles me also. That rough act in the bed shocks us awake and then the rodeo really shocks us awake even more.
kathy
[/size]
Those scenes startle me too.
Here's another one -- the thunderclap during the hailstorm on BBM. I feel as if Mother Nature herself is warning the boys of trouble ahead. (Right before this, Jack has a bad feeling about Aguirre and his binoculars.) Ka-BOOM!
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I don't know if this exactly goes here, or if it's more like a "symbolism" thing, but the train -- I am also always startled by the noise right then in that scene -- reminds me of this:
Ennis in bed with Alma, when he flips her over and gives out a big loud grunt (loud in the context of a dark and quiet bedroom) / and wham! the scene immediately goes to the really loud rodeo scene and Jack going out of the chute. That always startles me also. That rough act in the bed shocks us awake and then the rodeo really shocks us awake even more.
kathy
[/size]
Those scenes startle me too.
Here's another one -- the thunderclap during the hailstorm on BBM. I feel as if Mother Nature herself is warning the boys of trouble ahead. (Right before this, Jack has a bad feeling about Aguirre and his binoculars.) Ka-BOOM!
Beautiful observation. Thank you.
To me that rodeo scene has a double meaning. It shows Jack trying to ride out the yearning in his heart. He fails.
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I don't know if this exactly goes here, or if it's more like a "symbolism" thing, but the train -- I am also always startled by the noise right then in that scene -- reminds me of this:
Ennis in bed with Alma, when he flips her over and gives out a big loud grunt (loud in the context of a dark and quiet bedroom) / and wham! the scene immediately goes to the really loud rodeo scene and Jack going out of the chute. That always startles me also. That rough act in the bed shocks us awake and then the rodeo really shocks us awake even more.
kathy
I know exactly what you mean, it made me jump when I first watched it! I said something similar on another thread, it's so well done the way the Ennis and Alma scene suddenly cuts to the Jack scene. The image of Jack on the bull is a very powerful and sexual one, and it fits perfectly to show what Ennis is thinking about when he's with Alma.
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[/size]
Those scenes startle me too.
Here's another one -- the thunderclap during the hailstorm on BBM. I feel as if Mother Nature herself is warning the boys of trouble ahead. (Right before this, Jack has a bad feeling about Aguirre and his binoculars.) Ka-BOOM!
Wow -- I hadn't taken note of this -- I'll have to watch. Is it right before the hailstorm or what?
kathy
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Beautiful observation. Thank you.
To me that rodeo scene has a double meaning. It shows Jack trying to ride out the yearning in his heart. He fails.
Oh god, that's a good one. Sometimes these things have to be pointed out to me, but then I get it. The fact that he loses this first time we see him rodeoing (and then the painful scene in the bar with Jimbo or whoever he heck he is who I don't like). Or it could be he can't hold on to Ennis, or to his feelings for Ennis, and falls off... But then, he holds on for the 8 seconds when Lureen's watching, so he snags her instead.
kathy
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I don't know if this exactly goes here, or if it's more like a "symbolism" thing, but the train -- I am also always startled by the noise right then in that scene -- reminds me of this:
Ennis in bed with Alma, when he flips her over and gives out a big loud grunt (loud in the context of a dark and quiet bedroom) / and wham! the scene immediately goes to the really loud rodeo scene and Jack going out of the chute. That always startles me also. That rough act in the bed shocks us awake and then the rodeo really shocks us awake even more.
kathy
I know exactly what you mean, it made me jump when I first watched it! I said something similar on another thread, it's so well done the way the Ennis and Alma scene suddenly cuts to the Jack scene. The image of Jack on the bull is a very powerful and sexual one, and it fits perfectly to show what Ennis is thinking about when he's with Alma.
Yes indeed, a very visceral connection there between Ennis and Jack, and both very sexual or sexual-ish scenes...
kathy
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Wow -- I hadn't taken note of this -- I'll have to watch. Is it right before the hailstorm or what?
kathy
Yes, it's at 35:33 of the movie, at the very beginning of the storm scene, before the hail actually starts to fall. Made me jump out of my seat in the theater.
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Beautiful observation. Thank you.
To me that rodeo scene has a double meaning. It shows Jack trying to ride out the yearning in his heart. He fails.
Oh god, that's a good one. Sometimes these things have to be pointed out to me, but then I get it. The fact that he loses this first time we see him rodeoing (and then the painful scene in the bar with Jimbo or whoever he heck he is who I don't like). Or it could be he can't hold on to Ennis, or to his feelings for Ennis, and falls off... But then, he holds on for the 8 seconds when Lureen's watching, so he snags her instead.
kathy
I do love the double meaning in their names. I find the names so apt, and both actors were so good in the portrayal.
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Following this fascinating discussion on trains (so symbolic!), sounds and the double meaning of the rodeo scenes (tpe, wonderful connection!) I was reminded of how also certain words or phrases have been doubled or used repeatedly.
We see "cowboy" used a lot: a term of endearment between Jack and Ennis, as a come on by Lureen to Jack, a brush off by the rodeo clown to Jack.
Of course, the boys are always calling each other "friend" or "bud".
What strikes me as spooky though, I will admit, is the line "so, here I am".
We first hear those words from Aguirre's lips, when he rides up to tell Jack about his Uncle being sick. "Your ma wanted me to tell you ... So, here I am". He's looking up the mountain with his binoculars, and Jack turns his gaze up there, too, seeing what he see; Ennis riding among the herd of sheep, unaware that he's being watched. Ennis is in blissful ignorance of how there can indeed be prying eyes even in the sanctuary of their mountain, so is able to continue their relationship through the rest of the summer, without the fear of exposure inhibiting him.
Then later, in the dreaded divorce misunderstanding Jack says to Ennis "Got your postcard your divorce had come through ... So, here I am". He even says it with same kind of rhythm that Aguirre used. A few seconds later and he realizes his mistake, as Ennis is stumbling over his excuses and looking off toward the distance. Jack follows his gaze, too, and this time sees that truck passing by and understands that Ennis is fearing being seen with him. Ennis doesn't KNOW if he's being watched, but he is fearful that this is the case, and his suspicions are enough to further fuel his withdrawal and set new bruises on their relationship. Bruises that will have heartbreaking consequences later on.
There is also the phrase "Tell you what ... ". Jack may have picked this up from his father. He uses it that last camping trip .. "Tell you what ... truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it".
Then of course, John Twist uses it with his last words spoken to Ennis after Jack has died, "Tell you what ... we got a family plot, and he's goin' in it".
Both times, "Tell you what .. " is followed by things that Ennis would probably have preferred not to hear, because each pronouncement is a blow to his heart, I think, though in very different ways.
Hearing it from Jack, it's confirmation of the depth of Jack's feelings, the hurt he's been enduring all these years, what Ennis knew he was doing to him but couldn't - or wouldn't - change. Here, finally, put into simple words and sent out into the night air, can't be denied, can't be ignored, though Ennis surely does try.
Nor can he ignore after John Twist's words at the end that Jack isn't going to have his wishes answered in death either, and Ennis has no power to change that. Except, as we believe, through the guardianship of the shirts that represent their history and their love.
I may be reaching on these, but as we've come to realize ... there is little in BBM that isn't there for a reason .... :-\\
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Following this fascinating discussion on trains (so symbolic!), sounds and the double meaning of the rodeo scenes (tpe, wonderful connection!) I was reminded of how also certain words or phrases have been doubled or used repeatedly.
We see "cowboy" used a lot: a term of endearment between Jack and Ennis, as a come on by Lureen to Jack, a brush off by the rodeo clown to Jack.
Of course, the boys are always calling each other "friend" or "bud".
What strikes me as spooky though, I will admit, is the line "so, here I am".
We first hear those words from Aguirre's lips, when he rides up to tell Jack about his Uncle being sick. "Your ma wanted me to tell you ... So, here I am". He's looking up the mountain with his binoculars, and Jack turns his gaze up there, too, seeing what he see; Ennis riding among the herd of sheep, unaware that he's being watched. Ennis is in blissful ignorance of how there can indeed be prying eyes even in the sanctuary of their mountain, so is able to continue their relationship through the rest of the summer, without the fear of exposure inhibiting him.
Then later, in the dreaded divorce misunderstanding Jack says to Ennis "Got your postcard your divorce had come through ... So, here I am". He even says it with same kind of rhythm that Aguirre used. A few seconds later and he realizes his mistake, as Ennis is stumbling over his excuses and looking off toward the distance. Jack follows his gaze, too, and this time sees that truck passing by and understands that Ennis is fearing being seen with him. Ennis doesn't KNOW if he's being watched, but he is fearful that this is the case, and his suspicions are enough to further fuel his withdrawal and set new bruises on their relationship. Bruises that will have heartbreaking consequences later on.
There is also the phrase "Tell you what ... ". Jack may have picked this up from his father. He uses it that last camping trip .. "Tell you what ... truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it".
Then of course, John Twist uses it with his last words spoken to Ennis after Jack has died, "Tell you what ... we got a family plot, and he's goin' in it".
Both times, "Tell you what .. " is followed by things that Ennis would probably have preferred not to hear, because each pronouncement is a blow to his heart, I think, though in very different ways.
Hearing it from Jack, it's confirmation of the depth of Jack's feelings, the hurt he's been enduring all these years, what Ennis knew he was doing to him but couldn't - or wouldn't - change. Here, finally, put into simple words and sent out into the night air, can't be denied, can't be ignored, though Ennis surely does try.
Nor can he ignore after John Twist's words at the end that Jack isn't going to have his wishes answered in death either, and Ennis has no power to change that. Except, as we believe, through the guardianship of the shirts that represent their history and their love.
I may be reaching on these, but as we've come to realize ... there is little in BBM that isn't there for a reason .... :-\\
This is truly beyond words. I am almost at a loss for words to respond to this.
"so, here I am".
"Tell you what ... "
And the most poigniant of all:
"it's alright"
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This is truly beyond words. I am almost at a loss for words to respond to this.
"so, here I am".
"Tell you what ... "
And the most poigniant of all:
"it's alright"
Oh, now I have tears ... :\'(
I couldn't touch that one without breaking down, I swear .... thank you, tpe!
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This is truly beyond words. I am almost at a loss for words to respond to this.
"so, here I am".
"Tell you what ... "
And the most poigniant of all:
"it's alright"
Oh, now I have tears ... :\'(
I couldn't touch that one without breaking down, I swear .... thank you, tpe!
MississaugaRed , as you pointed out, it is terrible to discover the multiple meanings in these short phrases. Who cannot help being moved by the cruelty of fate.
So many meanings for so few words. The sadness underlying all this is sometimes too much to bear.
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You guys just blow me away! Thank you for those beautiful insights.
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Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?
I wish I knew how to quit you.
Translation: I don't know how to quit you.
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Don't know if it's been discussed on this thread. But you're absolutely right, tpe. I know some people think of this as Jack's Declaration that he will quit Ennis but I disagree. Even the catch in his voice reveals so much in that statement. And I think directly ties to some of his other 'confessions' for lack of a better word. "It could be like this.....", "Sometimes I miss you so much....", and especially "I wish I knew how to quit you" show a complete vulnerability, a momentary completely open look into Jack's heart. His entire being is about Ennis and I would argue he said "I love you" in so many ways over the years. Ennis just couldn't/wouldn't hear it, but I think that's what it means nevertheless.
Just my two cents.
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Don't know if it's been discussed on this thread. But you're absolutely right, tpe. I know some people think of this as Jack's Declaration that he will quit Ennis but I disagree. Even the catch in his voice reveals so much in that statement. And I think directly ties to some of his other 'confessions' for lack of a better word. "It could be like this.....", "Sometimes I miss you so much....", and especially "I wish I knew how to quit you" show a complete vulnerability, a momentary completely open look into Jack's heart. His entire being is about Ennis and I would argue he said "I love you" in so many ways over the years. Ennis just couldn't/wouldn't hear it, but I think that's what it means nevertheless.
Just my two cents.
I know that Ang Lee toyed with the idea of showing Jack and Randall together -- so as to indicate that Jack was perhaps getting over Ennis. I am glad that Ang Lee cut out those scenes with Jack, Randall, and the mechanics. It is more faithful to the story to leave some ambiguity. Even though Jack's father said that there were plans to bring Randall back with him, that still leaves room for uncertainly.
To have seen Jack with Randal would have killed me. But perhaps this is the most tragic possibility of them all -- the death of Jack's love for Ennis.
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And tpe, that's simply a possibility I'm not willing to fathom. Because I also believe that even if Jack Was involved with Randall, it couldn't touch his love for Ennis. He might have felt he couldn't reach out and touch it (much like Ennis at the end of the movie), but his love for Ennis would, I believe, always have lived protected in his heart.
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And tpe, that's simply a possibility I'm not willing to fathom. Because I also believe that even if Jack Was involved with Randall, it couldn't touch his love for Ennis. He might have felt he couldn't reach out and touch it (much like Ennis at the end of the movie), but his love for Ennis would, I believe, always have lived protected in his heart.
I feel the same way. But for a moment, I consider the unbearable.
It is the greatest and most tragic double meaning that we hold on to here: that Jack will always love Ennis even as he moves on to someone else.
Jake Gyllenhaal's interpretation rings in my ears. But I cannot fathom it. I do not want to fathom it. It kills me.
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And it would kill me too, so I simply choose to cling to my own interpretation and remain oh so grateful that this story leaves so much to each of us to decide for ourselves.
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IMO and I have stated this numerous times- Jack would have dropped anyone and anything to be with Ennis. I will not believe that Jack could ever stop loving Ennis. Ennis was too much a part of his soul and too deeply rooted in his heart. If Jack knew how to quit Ennis his life would be "easier" in that he wouldn't have that feeling alive for brief periods of time and then having to go back to reality. Jack could never stop loving Ennis. You're correct- I don't know how to quit you.
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Yep, that's my story too, and I'm stickin to it!
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Yep, that's my story too, and I'm stickin to it!
I like your story(ies), FlwrChld, LJN & tpe - and will stick with that, also! O0 ^f^
He may have wanted to quit the pain loving Ennis brought him, but he still went back to hold Ennis when he broke down, after all was said and done that day.
Jack was no quitter.
Randall was filler.
Amen. #)
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Thanks everyone.
Thank God for double meanings.
"I wish I knew how to quite you." => "I can't quit you because I love you so much."
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Thanks everyone.
Thank God for double meanings.
"I wish I knew how to quite you." => "I can't quit you because I love you so much."
Sorry for coming in late to this poignant discusstion. Since the thread is about double meanings, I wanted to point out one little detail: the word "quit" in Jack's speech comes from Ennis's earlier line, "Used to be I'd quit the jobs....can't quit this one." (quoting from memory there; apologies to AP, DO, and LM.)
Those words tell something about Ennis's history with the relationship. With the same word, he's able to tell how much he has in fact given to the relationship and what his limits are.
So no surprise that Jack uses the word in the same way. As tpe points out, Jack cannot quit Ennis. His statement contains two degrees of separtaion from the impossible statement, "I quit you."
1. I wish
2. I knew
So he "wishes" for something--you don't wish for something you have; he doesn't even "know how" to quit Ennis--and knowing how to do something is a long way from finding the strength to do it.
However, the word knew also indicates that it's Jack's head that is interested in "quitting" Ennis. In his head, he thinks it would be better to move on; he'll never have the "sweet life" he craves. Ennis can't even increase the frequency of their meetings to more than "a couple of high-altitude" fffishing encounters "once or twice a year." His head wants to quit Ennis and find someone more emotionally and especially logistically and physically (as in physical presence) available to him.
But his heart cannot, will not, shall not quit Ennis. His heart does not even know how to quit Ennis.
So both partners use the word quit both to communicate their commitment to the relationship and their frustration with it.
Sorry for LaShawning there a bit.
:c)
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That was PERFECT LaShawning, edgar!
And beautiful and deeply connected, as always. An already powerful scene has so much more meaning than I could ever have imagined ... Thank you! ^f^
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Perhaps the phrase summarizes the impossibility of the relationship in Jack's heart: he cannot live without it (Ennis's love), but he cannot live without it (a shared life).
He cannot live without either one. It is a foregone conclusion that Jack will not live.
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Thanks, MissRed.
tpe, there you go again. :\'(
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Perhaps the pharse summarizes the impossibility of the relationship in Jack's heart: he cannot live without it (Ennis's love), but he cannot live without it (a shared life).
He cannot live without either one. It is a foregone conclusion that Jack will not live.
Cuts to the quick, tpe ...
It may well have been a foregone conclusion, in the subtext that you've so lovingly summed up, ... but I didn't know that the first time through, and it almost killed ME! Now, all it takes is the discussion of his fate .... :\'(
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Once again all I can say is WOW!
edgar/tpe/MissRed: just heartbreakingly beautiful! Thanks.
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I wish I knew how to quit you.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkuvablogi.com%2Fnayta%2Fprev%2Fimg62845.jpg&hash=7dcf02b626e5cde64ee31cf509eac2f9ad846f03)
I attempt from Love's sickness to fly in vain,
Since I am myself my own fever and pain.
No more now, fond heart, with pride no more swell,
Thou canst not raise forces enough to rebel.
I attempt from Love's sickness to fly in vain,
Since I am myself my own fever and pain.
For Love has more power and less mercy than fate,
To make us seek ruin and love those that hate.
I attempt from Love's sickness to fly in vain,
Since I am myself my own fever and pain.
(Dryden)
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I bow to you, tpe. Always the right words....
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tpe, I add my admiration to FlwrChld's.
Your mind seems rich with beautiful words, to always find the right ones .. and share them with us ... thank you! ^f^
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It's all in "Wuthering Heights" - when asked if she loves Heathcliff, Cathy replies, "My love for Linton[the man she's going to marry] is like the foliage in the woods. Time will change it. ...My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath, a source of little visible delight but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff - he's always, always in my mind - not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
That's Jack's love for Ennis, the eternal rock - Randall is just a transient plant on its surface.
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It's all in "Wuthering Heights" - when asked if she loves Heathcliff, Cathy replies, "My love for Linton[the man she's going to marry] is like the foliage in the woods. Time will change it. ...My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath, a source of little visible delight but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff - he's always, always in my mind - not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
That's Jack's love for Ennis, the eternal rock - Randall is just a transient plant on its surface.
I pray it is not the adamantine rock in 'Melmoth the Wanderer'.
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It's all in "Wuthering Heights" - when asked if she loves Heathcliff, Cathy replies, "My love for Linton[the man she's going to marry] is like the foliage in the woods. Time will change it. ...My love for Heathcliff resembles the eternal rocks beneath, a source of little visible delight but necessary. Nelly, I am Heathcliff - he's always, always in my mind - not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
That's Jack's love for Ennis, the eternal rock - Randall is just a transient plant on its surface.
What a inspiring parallel l
:t)
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Perhaps the phrase summarizes the impossibility of the relationship in Jack's heart: he cannot live without it (Ennis's love), but he cannot live without it (a shared life).
He cannot live without either one. It is a foregone conclusion that Jack will not live.
:\'( Beautifully put as usual.
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as we believe, through the guardianship of the shirts that represent their history and their love.
I may be reaching on these, but as we've come to realize ... there is little in BBM that isn't there for a reason .... :-\\
I think you are so right, not reaching. I think everyone involved in BBM -- the writers, Ang Lee, Heath and Jake, Gustavo, Rodrigo (? - cinematographer), all are of a very poetic inclination. Poetry where every syllable and pause matters -- spare, nothing extraneous. Saying the most with the fewest words. I am sure everything came together in that way, the most essential images (and actions, and words) to express the widest and deepest meanings.
kathy
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I know that Ang Lee toyed with the idea of showing Jack and Randall together -- so as to indicate that Jack was perhaps getting over Ennis. I am glad that Ang Lee cut out those scenes with Jack, Randall, and the mechanics. It is more faithful to the story to leave some ambiguity. Even though Jack's father said that there were plans to bring Randall back with him, that still leaves room for uncertainly.
To have seen Jack with Randal would have killed me. But perhaps this is the most tragic possibility of them all -- the death of Jack's love for Ennis.
Oh shit, I can hardly even read that last phrase. No, please...
kathy
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Thanks everyone.
Thank God for double meanings.
"I wish I knew how to quite you." => "I can't quit you because I love you so much."
Sorry for coming in late to this poignant discusstion. Since the thread is about double meanings, I wanted to point out one little detail: the word "quit" in Jack's speech comes from Ennis's earlier line, "Used to be I'd quit the jobs....can't quit this one." (quoting from memory there; apologies to AP, DO, and LM.)
Those words tell something about Ennis's history with the relationship. With the same word, he's able to tell how much he has in fact given to the relationship and what his limits are.
So no surprise that Jack uses the word in the same way. As tpe points out, Jack cannot quit Ennis. His statement contains two degrees of separtaion from the impossible statement, "I quit you."
1. I wish
2. I knew
So he "wishes" for something--you don't wish for something you have; he doesn't even "know how" to quit Ennis--and knowing how to do something is a long way from finding the strength to do it.
However, the word knew also indicates that it's Jack's head that is interested in "quitting" Ennis. In his head, he thinks it would be better to move on; he'll never have the "sweet life" he craves. Ennis can't even increase the frequency of their meetings to more than "a couple of high-altitude" fffishing encounters "once or twice a year." His head wants to quit Ennis and find someone more emotionally and especially logistically and physically (as in physical presence) available to him.
But his heart cannot, will not, shall not quit Ennis. His heart does not even know how to quit Ennis.
So both partners use the word quit both to communicate their commitment to the relationship and their frustration with it.
Sorry for LaShawning there a bit.
:c)
Your words are beautiful, and help us really GET what is happening there with their words...then I LOL about LaShawning! I'm all serious and contemplating...then you trip me up with that. There must be some psychological term for that.
kathy
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His head wants to quit Ennis and find someone more emotionally and especially logistically and physically (as in physical presence) available to him.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fun-decided.com%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbbm1445.jpg&hash=f58eec1efd0e6e9792e965b8e15259c0f348fe4b)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fun-decided.com%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbbm1446.jpg&hash=6f8a080a98595aea6fb92883c879e1a10b7b80c7)
But his heart cannot, will not, shall not quit Ennis. His heart does not even know how to quit Ennis.
.......raising his hands and approaching Ennis before the hug........
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi77.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj66%2Ffranny19%2Flake.jpg&hash=efa8dd58621f4dc7da1436ebedc993339b888e0a)
Thank you Edgar for your LaShawning
Thank you all. Beautiful posts
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Thank you Edgar for your LaShawning
Thank you all. Beautiful posts.
And thank you for the illustrations. :)
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fun-decided.com%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbbm1445.jpg&hash=f58eec1efd0e6e9792e965b8e15259c0f348fe4b)
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fun-decided.com%2Fgallery%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2Fbbm1446.jpg&hash=6f8a080a98595aea6fb92883c879e1a10b7b80c7)
With each poisoned phrase,
With every lash of your venomous tongue,
You dissemble.
Beloved, you cannot hide
The fulcrum of your Heart.
Seek not to deny
With each silent look
The tender meaning
That informs every word
That comes
From the mouth
of your Love
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Thomas ... those images and those words, together .... :\'( Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.
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Thomas ... those images and those words, together .... :\'( Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.
MississaugaRed, it just dawned on me via these pix that even their looks have so many levels of meaning.
Jake hates Ennis so much in this pix -- but his hate is driven by the hopelessness of his love ofr Ennis. He is clutching at straws. His anger is a dagger straight to his heart. In desperation for his love, he wounds himself with every painful phrase.
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Thomas ... those images and those words, together .... :'( Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.
MississaugaRed, it just dawned on me via these pix that even their looks have so many levels of meaning.
Jake hates Ennis so much in this pix -- but his hate is driven by the hopelessness of his love ofr Ennis. He is clutching at straws. His anger is a dagger straight to his heart. In desperation for his love, he wounds himself with every painful phrase.
Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins .. :(.
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body. It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )
Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom. And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them. His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.
The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?
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Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins .. :(.
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body. It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )
Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom. And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them. His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.
The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?
Yes, MississaugaRed. And as cired earlier, this whole scene is so full of double meanings -- in both things said and those things left unsaid. It is tunning. It takes a while to figure out what is the meaning of it all. On the surface, it is a lovers' quarrel, but not that deep down, we realize that is is a running and compact summary of their relationship. It is the start of the coda, fittingly enough. It is Jack's "validiction." Through pain, anger, and suffering, you see his love for Ennis. Whether it dies here or not -- it does not matter. What matters is that we see his love's pain.
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Thomas ... those images and those words, together .... :'( Jack Twist ... so many beautiful contradictions in his complexity.
MississaugaRed, it just dawned on me via these pix that even their looks have so many levels of meaning.
Jake hates Ennis so much in this pix -- but his hate is driven by the hopelessness of his love ofr Ennis. He is clutching at straws. His anger is a dagger straight to his heart. In desperation for his love, he wounds himself with every painful phrase.
Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins .. :(.
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body. It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )
Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom. And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them. His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.
The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?
Beautifully put! There was a screencap I found and seeing the look on Jack's face, I said "mean Jack". He's so hurt and angry- at himself, at Ennis, at the world. The toll that that love has taken on both of them. :(
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Beautifully put! There was a screencap I found and seeing the look on Jack's face, I said "mean Jack". He's so hurt and angry- at himself, at Ennis, at the world. The toll that that love has taken on both of them. :(
LJN, we know you understand and love Jack in all his variations. <^(
I guess a great love will demand a high price ... as you say, the toll taken on both ... :(
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Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins .. :(.
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body. It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )
Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom. And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them. His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.
The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?
Oh yes, miss, you said it beautifully -- about our viewing of this intense scene (bracing ourselves in this twister); and then...you're breaking my heart...Ennis not able to remain standing and Jack there to break his fall. JHC, I am again stunned just reading and thinking about it. No surprise at all this movie so intensely affects us. (And I think of how the intensity, even though "acting," would have had to affect Heath and Jake...and besides that, I just want to thank them again and again for giving life to these characters and giving them to us.
kathy
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Oh, yes,Thomas, viewing these still images you can indeed see the strain his body is under from the force of his emotional distress, his self-inflicted wounds; the corded muscles in his neck, the distended veins .. :(.
When watching this scene run through from start to finish I'm always left with the impression of feeling physically the emotions thrown off by both men, but especially running off Jack's body. It feels as if I'm bracing myself to stand upright in the face of a tornado ...( also called a "twister", appropriately ... )
Ennis, finally, is not able to remain standing in this maelstrom. And still, Jack is there to break his fall, no matter what had just passed between them. His love hadn't changed regardless of the words they'd let fly.
The power of this one scene and every single word, exhalation of breath, gesture ... it's stunning, isn't it?
Oh yes, miss, you said it beautifully -- about our viewing of this intense scene (bracing ourselves in this twister); and then...you're breaking my heart...Ennis not able to remain standing and Jack there to break his fall. JHC, I am again stunned just reading and thinking about it. No surprise at all this movie so intensely affects us. (And I think of how the intensity, even though "acting," would have had to affect Heath and Jake...and besides that, I just want to thank them again and again for giving life to these characters and giving them to us.
kathy
ditto!
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As usual I must thank you all here for bringing new meaning to life
<^( <^(
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Thanks everybody.
On to another scene rich in double meanings: the "apple pie" scene between Cassie and Ennis. There is so much implied underneath every phrase exchanged by these two...
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Cassie's first question is "Where you been?" Where has Ennis been? Hiding away from the possibilities that present themselves, perhaps, and from becoming too deeply involved in any relationship with a woman ( or even anyone?) because he knows there was and will only ever be Jack. He's killing time, till November in a way; is there even the remotest chance that he's been thinking about himslef and Jack, and has cut himslef off from Cassie because he's starting to know himself? In a way I hope not - it would be the bitterest of ironies if he started to thoink finally of committing to Jack just at the point where Jack dies.
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Cassie's first question is "Where you been?" Where has Ennis been? Hiding away from the possibilities that present themselves, perhaps, and from becoming too deeply involved in any relationship with a woman ( or even anyone?) because he knows there was and will only ever be Jack. He's killing time, till November in a way; is there even the remotest chance that he's been thinking about himslef and Jack, and has cut himslef off from Cassie because he's starting to know himself? In a way I hope not - it would be the bitterest of ironies if he started to thoink finally of committing to Jack just at the point where Jack dies.
I love the ambiguity of the phrase "Here and there."
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He's spent his whole life " here" - Riverton - and " there" - with Jack. He's also never entirely known where he wants " here" to be; he evidently doesn't enjoy his working/married life but when he's with Jack can't be there wholeheartedly - when he was talking about making the movie Jake said something about turning up and being present; at the time it struck me that Ennis was never totally present wherever he was.
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Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?
I wish I knew how to quit you.
Translation: I don't know how to quit you.
I will never stop loving you...
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Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?
I wish I knew how to quit you.
Translation: I don't know how to quit you.
I will never stop loving you...
Yes, your take is more forceful. Thank you. :)
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Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?
I wish I knew how to quit you.
Translation: I don't know how to quit you.
I will never stop loving you...
Yes, your take is more forceful. Thank you. :)
Very beautiful...
kathy
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Running through this thread again brings many :\'( ...
Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?
I wish I knew how to quit you.
Translation: I don't know how to quit you.
I will never stop loving you...
And he never does .... :\'(
Another line from early on - "You gonna do this again next summer?" - maybe Jack's way of asking "Am I going to see you again?" or "Do you WANT to see me again?"
With Ennis responding by saying "maybe not" in answer to the prosaic; and perhaps hurting Jack's heart a little at the implied response to the subtext of his question??
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I'm sure of it MissRed. :(
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.
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I'm sure of it MissRed. :(
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.
Yes, FlwrChld, that's our Jack ... always giving Ennis a second (or one-hundred-and-second) chance to accept what Jack is offering him.
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It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.
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It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.
Agreed on all counts!
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Running through this thread again brings many :\'( ...
Has the double meaning of this phrase been discussed here?
I wish I knew how to quit you.
Translation: I don't know how to quit you.
I will never stop loving you...
And he never does .... :\'(
Another line from early on - "You gonna do this again next summer?" - maybe Jack's way of asking "Am I going to see you again?" or "Do you WANT to see me again?"
With Ennis responding by saying "maybe not" in answer to the prosaic; and perhaps hurting Jack's heart a little at the implied response to the subtext of his question??
MississaugaRed, I do think you are right here. I felt Jack was clutching on straws at this point. He would have probably been happy if he just found some excuse to hook up in the near future...
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I'm sure of it MissRed. :(
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.
I might be back, if the army don't get me.
Meaning: I will be back if it's just up to me.
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It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.
NoReins, you read my mind here. Jack was telling Ennis his own intention of coming back, and hopes Ennis will be able to see him again.
"please want me - 'cos I want you" This way of saying it is beautiful.
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It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.
NoReins, you read my mind here. Jack was telling Ennis his own intention of coming back, and hopes Ennis will be able to see him again.
"please want me - 'cos I want you" This way of saying it is beautiful.
Yes, beautiful! ^f^
And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice. He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before. Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.
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[And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice. He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before. Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.
Equally beautiful, and true, IMO. He didn't lose hope that Ennis would want them to meet again...
I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
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[And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice. He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before. Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.
Equally beautiful, and true, IMO. He didn't lose hope that Ennis would want them to meet again...
I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
Oh I think Ennis definitely hoped he'd see Jack again but I also think that he felt that if he didn't it was his own fault - the full line being "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you was sore from that punch". He thinks that he's driven Jack away because of the punch thrown out of frustration and devastation at having to leave the mountain early....maybe that's even the answer to the question about why Ennis didn't try to contact Jack?
Sorry, way off topic there....sometimes my mind just wanders off without me ???
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[And later, when he returns next summer and asks Aguirre "Hey, Ennis Del Mar ain't been around, has he?", you still hear the hope in his voice. He really hadn't given up believing that Ennis had wanted him enough to come looking for him there, even if Ennis hadn't held out any promises to Jack the year before. Even before the reunion, Jack was already the one keeping their love alive with his hope and his fatih.
Equally beautiful, and true, IMO. He didn't lose hope that Ennis would want them to meet again...
I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
Too passive, unfortunately.
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I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad. :( Thank you!
It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack. Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance. That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.
When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack. I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not. Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I am devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".
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I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad. :( Thank you!
It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack. Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance. That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.
When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack. I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not. Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I have devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".
Beautiful MissRed!
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Oh I think Ennis definitely hoped he'd see Jack again but I also think that he felt that if he didn't it was his own fault - the full line being "didn't think I'd hear from you again, figured you was sore from that punch". He thinks that he's driven Jack away because of the punch thrown out of frustration and devastation at having to leave the mountain early....maybe that's even the answer to the question about why Ennis didn't try to contact Jack?
Sorry, way off topic there....sometimes my mind just wanders off without me ???
Fast or slow, we like the direction your mind wanders .. ;)
Guess there's double meaning in their actions too, 'cause I like what you're saying about the punch; at the time he just wanted to drive Jack away from him in the "there and then" because of his pain being so raw, doubt if he considered until later that maybe he'd driven him away for good, then he would have worried at the thought like he chewed his fingers. And I like your connection to the "sore from that punch" line, and why maybe Ennis had feared rejection if he tried contacting Jack. Everyone else in Ennis's life had life him, after all, likely he figured that punch was reason enough for Jack to be done with him, too ... :-\\
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That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad. :( Thank you!
It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack. Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance. That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.
When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack. I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not. Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I have devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".
I suspect that John Twist sort of understood. Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was. That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant. "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him. It is almost an avowal of love.
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I suspect that John Twist sort of understood. Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was. That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant. "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him. It is almost an avowal of love.
Definitely an avowal of love, tpe, in our search for double meanings. :)
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I suspect that John Twist sort of understood. Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was. That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant. "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him. It is almost an avowal of love.
Definitely an avowal of love, tpe, in our search for double meanings. :)
Yep, no almost about it. :)
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And one of the times when Ennis, who's no good at talking about feelings, does try to - shows how much Jack meant to him.
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And one of the times when Ennis, who's no good at talking about feelings, does try to - shows how much Jack meant to him.
And sorry to be OT for a moment, but the fact that Ennis didn't know about the shirts makes his journey to Lightning Flat all the more impressive. He took it upon himself to contact Lureen, and armed with her information, go to see Jack's parents and open up the discussion about Jack's remains. The only (?) time he took a non-passive approach and put himself out there. Poor boy. So glad he found the shirts...
Sorry, back to the discussion...
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And one of the times when Ennis, who's no good at talking about feelings, does try to - shows how much Jack meant to him.
And sorry to be OT for a moment, but the fact that Ennis didn't know about the shirts makes his journey to Lightning Flat all the more impressive. He took it upon himself to contact Lureen, and armed with her information, go to see Jack's parents and open up the discussion about Jack's remains. The only (?) time he took a non-passive approach and put himself out there. Poor boy. So glad he found the shirts...
Sorry, back to the discussion...
Not OT, either, FlwrChld, and so true. <^( The shirts have at the very least a double meaning to us all .... a treasure taken and a gift given.
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"A treasure taken and a gift given."
Beautiful MissRed. :)
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I suspect that John Twist sort of understood. Hard to say, but I feel that he did know who Ennis was. That makes Ennis's avowal and John Twist's reaction all the more poigniant. "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel" -- It is almost an avowal to Jack's parents of how much their son meant to him. It is almost an avowal of love.
Definitely an avowal of love, tpe, in our search for double meanings. :)
Yep, no almost about it. :)
I can live with this correction. :)
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Running through this thread again brings many :\'( ...
Another line from early on - "You gonna do this again next summer?" - maybe Jack's way of asking "Am I going to see you again?" or "Do you WANT to see me again?"
With Ennis responding by saying "maybe not" in answer to the prosaic; and perhaps hurting Jack's heart a little at the implied response to the subtext of his question??
Breaking my heart. "Do you want to see me again?" "Maybe not..." Oh I'm going to :\'(
kathy
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I'm sure of it MissRed. :(
And the expression on Jack's face when he says "...or I might be back." That boy was always willing to put himself out on the line.
I know -- that expression is so beautiful, so expressive. Just a lift of the brows that could say so much -- hope, and a little bit of pleading too. And Ennis walks off...
kathy
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It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.
You are so right! You guys and gals are breaking my heart right now. I'm in a very emotional BBM mood today for some reason...
Masterful from both Jake and Heath -- Heath's poor Ennis doesn't know how to leave, either.
kathy
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I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad. :( Thank you!
It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack. Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance. That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.
When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack. I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not. Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I am devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".
Oh woman, you're torturing me with Ennis and Jack pain. You said it beautifully, Ennis's finally awakening from the passivity.
And the words Ennis is really saying to Jack's father... Devastating...yet finally Ennis is really admitting his love.
kathy
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I do think that, in his own troubled way, Ennis never gave up hope of seeing Jack again -- "thought I'd never see you again" during the motel scene did indicate that there was a passive hope in Ennis's heart for Jack.
That's a perfect way to describe Ennis, tpe, and his whole walk through life. Beautiful and sad. :( Thank you!
It seems to me, now that you say that, that Ennis was mainly passive throughout most of his life, but particularly in his relationship with Jack. Then at the end first Jack's infidelities and later his death seem to drive Ennis to take a more agressive stance. That last time they are together, you can feel that Ennis is fighting FOR their relationship as much as he's fighting WITH Jack; and by calling Lureen, going to Lighting Flat, taking the shirts, he's actively clawing back what he can of the life and love the two of them had together.
When he says to Jack's father "I feel really bad about Jack. I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel", Ennis really IS telling Jack's father the depth of his pain, whether Mr. Twist understood it or not. Those words seem to mean "I loved your son and I am devastated beyond hope of breath that he's gone and left me alone to grieve; but you wouldn't understand those words if I spoke them, so I won't".
Beautifully said! :\'(
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It's the hope in Jack's voice when he says "I might be back" that really gets to me. I think he's really saying "if you want me, you know where I'll be" but the lift in his voice also implies "please want me - 'cos I want you"
4 little words and a slight change in tone - and we can read a whole declaration of love into it. Masterful acting from Jake.
You guys are killing me tonight. :\'( Beautiful No Reins.
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When you think about it, Ennis left the door a tiny bit open too. "See you around, i guess" ( or "huh") isn't exactly committed, but it might imply that he thought they might meet again. Jack has some idea where ennis is going to be - he's said he's going to marry Alma and get a job on a ranch - given Ennis's character, Jack might guess tht he'd stick to an area he already knew and where alma belonged.
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I think you're right WW - Ennis did leave the door open. If he was totally sure that it was a one shot thing and was over now that they'd left the safety of the mountain then he would have just said goodbye. He had no intention of going back to Brokeback that next summer, but he still said he would see Jack round - how did he think he would see him, if not by keeping in touch in some way? I guess he just assumed that Jack would take the lead in getting in touch, just as he did in everything else....and he really must have pretty much given up by the time he finally did get the card from Jack (blaming himself too)
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I think you're right WW - Ennis did leave the door open. If he was totally sure that it was a one shot thing and was over now that they'd left the safety of the mountain then he would have just said goodbye. He had no intention of going back to Brokeback that next summer, but he still said he would see Jack round - how did he think he would see him, if not by keeping in touch in some way? I guess he just assumed that Jack would take the lead in getting in touch, just as he did in everything else....and he really must have pretty much given up by the time he finally did get the card from Jack (blaming himself too)
Or maybe that statement was the period on the sentence. Something to say that would end the conversation on a friendly note, never meant literally.
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Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.
I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.
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Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.
I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.
Patriot1 and welshwitch, I think you're so right on both counts!
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Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.
I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.
You hit the nail on the head. Neither feels able to just come out (pun intended) and say "I don't want to leave you, this means too much to walk away from it". If only one of them could have said the words....
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Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.
I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.
You hit the nail on the head. Neither feels able to just come out (pun intended) and say "I don't want to leave you, this means too much to walk away from it". If only one of them could have said the words....
Yes, NoReins .. :(
Which is why, even though on the surface "I might be back" and "see you around" could be just pleasantries, in the vein of "double meanings" they served for the words neither were prepared to speak. "I want to see you again" and "I hope to see you again". The iceberg theory of BBM. :)
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Unexpectedly for me, I was trying to be optimistic, but I guess you're right, Patriot 1 - it was just one of those phrases, like "We must do lunch sometime," which isn't meant to be taken literally.
I have a feeling, though, that this conversation is so awkward because neither of them is saying what he's thinking, because neither knows how to, and so both give the impression of being less involved than they are.
So true, WW!
I also think of how some people have said it seems Jack doesn't care or doesn't show emotion in that parting scene, but I certainly think I see what he's feeling, big time. It's just impossible for both of them to express at that point and in that place. Which reminds me of the previous part of the "leaving early" scene, how Jack seemed to not be too concerned about having to bring down the sheep; but I think he wasn't aware at that moment that it would mean he might not see Ennis again. Ennis is very aware of it, and thus his painful way of dealing with it.
I wish they'd shown that shot of Jack and Ennis next to each other in the truck going down the mountain, when Ennis closes his eyes in pain over having to leave...
kathy
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Yes, NoReins .. :(
Which is why, even though on the surface "I might be back" and "see you around" could be just pleasantries, in the vein of "double meanings" they served for the words neither were prepared to speak. "I want to see you again" and "I hope to see you again". The iceberg theory of BBM. :)
Whoops -- I just posted and kind of forgot this was "Double Meanings" thread. Thanks for bringing it back on topic. And your two double-meaning phrases are exactly right.
kathy
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Whoops -- I just posted and kind of forgot this was "Double Meanings" thread. Thanks for bringing it back on topic. And your two double-meaning phrases are exactly right.
kathy
Don't sweat it, kathy! These discussions get pretty fluid, you go where the thoughts take you; the occasional detour keeps it interesting and rich! And there is always a way to make the discussion tie in to the thread ;) ... it's all of a piece, anyway. You thoughts on the subject help flesh out the whole meaning below that "see you around" scene, so thank you!
You bring up the start of their leaving taking, when they're tearing down the camp, getting ready to bring the sheep down. Ennis's "that SOB is doing us out of a months pay" would seem to be just an excuse to cover his upset, really meaning "we're supposed to still have a month together up here, I'm not ready to go".
If it matters, I agree with what you said earlier about Jack then, that maybe the reason he seemed less upset than Ennis was that he was counting on being able to continue seeing Ennis once they were off the mountain; Ennis wasn't able to visualize a him-and-Jack scenario anywhere but in the privacy of Brokeback.
And Jack had already had time to process the fact that they were leaving early, could formulate plans in his head of how he could be with Ennis again. Ennis we see getting the message thrown at him cold, he hasn't had time to prepare in private. :-\\ Just supeculating. Sometimes their expression and actions have double meanings, too. :)
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There's also the rest of the exchange, when Jack offers tolend Ennis money ( surely partly at least a ploy to keep them in touch?) and Ennis turns him down flat. Evidently his pride is hurt but also he may suspect that Jack is better off/patroizing him and/or not like the feeling that he'll be under an obligation and will have to pay back money (? in person - I can't imagine him having much to do with banks) and explain why. It's as though he wants a clean break here, no loose ends, and the way he says goodbye by the truck may reinforce this.
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Welchwitch, you do get the impression that Ennis is running away ... be it from Jack or his own feelings. :(
I would think too it would be Ennis's pride that made him get ticked at Jack for offering a loan ; it would have impuned his manhood (so to speak) to have Jack think Ennis wasn't capable of supporting himself. That's not the imagine of him that he wants Jack to carry.
(not to mention Ennis is probably thinking "huh? Loan??? That's not the point! Point is, we should both be in this camp ... another d*am month! ;) )
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not to mention Ennis is probably thinking "huh? Loan??? That's not the point! Point is, we should both be in this camp ... another d*am month! ;)
Yeah, I don't think it had an awful lot to do with money at all. The month's pay meant very little - what upset Ennis was being cut out of a month of intimacy and love (even though neither would admit it that's what it was) with Jack.
You know, I think sometimes Jack was better at understanding Ennis when he said nothing than he was when words were spoken. He misses the point completely here, but he seems to read between the lines when Ennis strokes his arm in reply to "old Brokeback got us good" and when he sighs as he says "ain't no reins on this one".
Or maybe I'm reading too much into this :s) ^*()
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Or maybe I'm reading too much into this :s) ^*()
Again I must respond with ... "HUH?? That ain't the point! The point is, we're here to read too much into this ... " ;D
I'm inclined to agree with you somewhat on what you just said, too, NoReins. While Jack is quite good at talking, he seems so attuned to Ennis's body language, maybe listening with his ears throws him off. Especially when Ennis's words and body seem to be saying two different things ... :s) Double meanings / opposite meanings ... no wonder we read so much into everything ... :-\\
Ain't no reins on this one ... (oh, wait ... there you are ... :) )
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Kida always say that about studying Eng Lit - "Oh, that's not there, you're just reading things into it." But if you can see it, and substantiate what you say, then it's there for you.This movie speaks to us in different ways at different times and says different things too. Part of the reason is the script/ss, but part is just because so little is said, and many of the actions/movements are very small-scale, so they repay detailed examination. It's clear that almost everything in NBBM was carefully considered - it reminds me of one of those incredibly detailed miniature paintings in a Book of Hours.
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Kida always say that about studying Eng Lit - "Oh, that's not there, you're just reading things into it." But if you can see it, and substantiate what you say, then it's there for you.This movie speaks to us in different ways at different times and says different things too. Part of the reason is the script/ss, but part is just because so little is said, and many of the actions/movements are very small-scale, so they repay detailed examination. It's clear that almost everything in NBBM was carefully considered - it reminds me of one of those incredibly detailed miniature paintings in a Book of Hours.
Thank you, welshwitch!!! :cr)
You've summed up perfectly! There are none so blind as those who will not see. ;)
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You know, welshwitch, sometimes reading you guys is like listening to music for me.
And that's true of all the threads .
And MissRed, I love this! After all, there wouldn't be a forum in the first place if we didn't have a need to keep on reading more...
Again I must respond with ... "HUH?? That ain't the point! The point is, we're here to read too much into this ... " ;D
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Whoops -- I just posted and kind of forgot this was "Double Meanings" thread. Thanks for bringing it back on topic. And your two double-meaning phrases are exactly right.
kathy
Don't sweat it, kathy! These discussions get pretty fluid, you go where the thoughts take you; the occasional detour keeps it interesting and rich! And there is always a way to make the discussion tie in to the thread ;) ... it's all of a piece, anyway. You thoughts on the subject help flesh out the whole meaning below that "see you around" scene, so thank you!
You bring up the start of their leaving taking, when they're tearing down the camp, getting ready to bring the sheep down. Ennis's "that SOB is doing us out of a months pay" would seem to be just an excuse to cover his upset, really meaning "we're supposed to still have a month together up here, I'm not ready to go".
If it matters, I agree with what you said earlier about Jack then, that maybe the reason he seemed less upset than Ennis was that he was counting on being able to continue seeing Ennis once they were off the mountain; Ennis wasn't able to visualize a him-and-Jack scenario panywhere but in the rivacy of Brokeback.
And Jack had already had time to process the fact that they were leaving early, could formulate plans in his head of how he could be with Ennis again. Ennis we see getting the message thrown at him cold, he hasn't had time to prepare in private. :-\\ Just supeculating. Sometimes their expression and actions have double meanings, too. :)
This is the first time I thought of it this way. You're right, I think. Jack did think they would keep in touch. He felt this relationship was meaningful to both of them and they would remain friends, whereas Ennis, could only see his immediate planned future marrying Alma, etc. This is a new wrinkle to me and helps explain why Jack was not more upset at having to leave BBM early. Thanks for the insight! lamusica
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Kida always say that about studying Eng Lit - "Oh, that's not there, you're just reading things into it." But if you can see it, and substantiate what you say, then it's there for you.This movie speaks to us in different ways at different times and says different things too. Part of the reason is the script/ss, but part is just because so little is said, and many of the actions/movements are very small-scale, so they repay detailed examination. It's clear that almost everything in NBBM was carefully considered - it reminds me of one of those incredibly detailed miniature paintings in a Book of Hours.
I remember having that argument, but in reverse, with a Lit teacher, who wouldn't accept anyone having their own view, we were supposed to stick with the "official" interpretation all the time, I was like "how can you say what someone thinks, or feels, is wrong?" :X Sorry that's ot, but it still makes me mad, even though it was about twenty years ago ::) :X
Anyway, back ot, the "spare you a loan..." conversation, did Jack realise before he said it that it wasn't the money Ennis was upset about? Of course, it was a way of keeping contact with him,so if Ennis accepted, mission accomplished, but also if Jack realised why Ennis was really so upset,he might have seen it as an opening to discuss it, and work out what they were going to do.Rather than saying "I know it's not the money you're bothered about", cause Ennis would never have admitted that, he comes up with an immediate solution to the money problem, so Ennis doesn't have that to hide his feelings behind. Of course, Ennis being Ennis, that doesn't work either, and he goes off to be alone. It reminds me of the aftermath of FNIT, Ennis all moody in the morning and Jack being all caring and trying to do something nice "see you for supper", getting it thrown back in his face, but then still making the effort to go and make things right(the "one shot" conversation/the rope scene) :\'(
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Good interpretation CrimsonSky. I like it!
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Kida always say that about studying Eng Lit - "Oh, that's not there, you're just reading things into it." But if you can see it, and substantiate what you say, then it's there for you.This movie speaks to us in different ways at different times and says different things too. Part of the reason is the script/ss, but part is just because so little is said, and many of the actions/movements are very small-scale, so they repay detailed examination. It's clear that almost everything in NBBM was carefully considered - it reminds me of one of those incredibly detailed miniature paintings in a Book of Hours.
I remember having that argument, but in reverse, with a Lit teacher, who wouldn't accept anyone having their own view, we were supposed to stick with the "official" interpretation all the time, I was like "how can you say what someone thinks, or feels, is wrong?" :X Sorry that's ot, but it still makes me mad, even though it was about twenty years ago ::) :X
Not so OOT. I do think every author knows to a certain extent that after releasing a work out to the world, the work itself gets a life on its own. If they are against this, then circumstances normally conquer their scruples.
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And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
Well said, MissRed. You're right that Lureen didn't have to tell Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favourite place, especially given what she's just realised the significance of the place, as well as how long Jack's heart had belonged to someone else. That she does offer the information shows that she clearly cared a lot for Jack, despite the coldness of her tone, and she knows that he would have wanted Ennis to know how important he was to Jack.
MissRed and NoReins - I really like your interpretaion of Lureen's words.
In terms of double meanings, I think Lureen's next two llines also have double meanings. She said them a bit sarcastically: " He said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot."
I thought he meant to get drunk, Translation: I didn't know he meant it was his favorite place because of you (Ennis).
He drank a lot, Translation: He was unhappy when he wasn't with you.
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It definitely lets us, as well as Ennis, know the toll it was taking on Jack. I like your thoughts jesseanne!
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Yes, thank you, Jesseanne! ^f^
Jack had done a good job of hiding the depths of his unhappiness from Ennis up until that last confrontation. Lureen's words likely added some more weight to the guilt he was already carrying. :(
After the divorce misunderstanding, Jack merely says "yeah, alright. Then I'll see you in a month then", which Ennis could let himself interpret as conceding to the status quo. But we saw the resolve and hurt as he drove away, so the words were more like "You go on believing that this doesn't make a difference to what we could have together, but it makes a difference to me, damn you. So maybe I'll change the rules from my side of the fence!".
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MissRed - :\'( :\'(
Our poor Jack kept a lot inside so Ennis wouldn't have to see it (d*mn you Ennis).
Like when Ennis said "Sounds like high class entertainment.." and Jack said "For what it's worth." Which to me means: "I'd chuck it all in a heartbeat if you'd just give me the say-so. What good is all of that if I can't be with you?" Just IMO.
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Jack had done a good job of hiding the depths of his unhappiness from Ennis up until that last confrontation. Lureen's words likely added some more weight to the guilt he was already carrying. :(
MissRed - you are so right
In thinking about Ennis' and Jack's last camping trip, I think I see another double meaning as Jack tries to hide his unhappiness from Ennis.
When Ennis asks Jack about his marriage, "What about you and Lureen?"
Jack gives Ennis a sideways glance and responds, " Lureen is good at making hard deals in the farm machinery business, but as far as our marriage goes, we could do it over the phone." and later Jack tells Ennis the REAL truth, "Tell you what, the truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."
My observation was that Jack was the one who pushed Lureen away (not making eye contact with her when he spoke to her, facing away from her when they were at the dance with LaShawn and Randall) and he was trying to make it seem like she was the reason the marriage wasn't working out. But, my translation of that line (Lureen is good at making hard deals) would stil be: I don't want Lureen, I want you, Ennis.
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Our poor Jack kept a lot inside so Ennis wouldn't have to see it (d*mn you Ennis).
Like when Ennis said "Sounds like high class entertainment.." and Jack said "For what it's worth." Which to me means: "I'd chuck it all in a heartbeat if you'd just give me the say-so. What good is all of that if I can't be with you?" Just IMO.
I'd second your opinion on that one, FlwrChld. :( Jack's expresses unhappiness, but mis-directs as to the source. :(
My observation was that Jack was the one who pushed Lureen away (not making eye contact with her when he spoke to her, facing away from her when they were at the dance with LaShawn and Randall) and he was trying to make it seem like she was the reason the marriage wasn't working out. But, my translation of that line (Lureen is good at making hard deals) would stil be: I don't want Lureen, I want you, Ennis.
Good observations, Jesseanne. :( Jack must have found it harder and harder to respond to any of Lureen's overtures as the years passed. "I don't know, never gave it any thought" = "I don't know, never give you much thought". It's no wonder she turned hard and bitter towards the end. Even if he didn't come out and say the words, you have to think Lureen suspected that Jack wasn't happy being with her. What a sad way to try to survive in a marriage. And sadder still that all that was a result of Jack trying to survive being apart from Ennis.
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MissRed and NoReins - I really like your interpretaion of Lureen's words.
In terms of double meanings, I think Lureen's next two llines also have double meanings. She said them a bit sarcastically: " He said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot."
I thought he meant to get drunk, Translation: I didn't know he meant it was his favorite place because of you (Ennis).
He drank a lot, Translation: He was unhappy when he wasn't with you.
I do not think this is a good translation because she did not know how much he drank when he was with Ennis.
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It seems to me that Jack drank a lot because he wasn't happy, and Lureen, though she evidently knew h drank, had no means of knowing why. I think the " he drank a lot" was simply an observation of the truth as she had observed it.
there's also the fact that they drank quite a lot while up on the mountain - to relax, because they were cold, whatever - and Jack is seen in bars both with Jimbo and withLureen - again, understandable as part of the social life associated with the rodeo but nevertheless Jack is seen in association with alcohol more than Ennis is.When he comes into camp and enis isn't there ( after the bear incident) his first reaction is to sit down and have a drink.It's just an escape mechanism for him and one he evidently needs more as time goes on because he's unhappy when he's away from Ennis - but there's no way Lureen could know this.
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In terms of double meanings, I think Lureen's next two llines also have double meanings. She said them a bit sarcastically: " He said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot."
I thought he meant to get drunk, Translation: I didn't know he meant it was his favorite place because of you (Ennis).
He drank a lot, Translation: He was unhappy when he wasn't with you.
Yes, thank you, Jesseanne! ^f^
Jack had done a good job of hiding the depths of his unhappiness from Ennis up until that last confrontation. Lureen's words likely added some more weight to the guilt he was already carrying. :(
After the divorce misunderstanding, Jack merely says "yeah, alright. Then I'll see you in a month then", which Ennis could let himself interpret as conceding to the status quo. But we saw the resolve and hurt as he drove away, so the words were more like "You go on believing that this doesn't make a difference to what we could have together, but it makes a difference to me, damn you. So maybe I'll change the rules from my side of the fence!".
MissRed - :\'( :\'(
Our poor Jack kept a lot inside so Ennis wouldn't have to see it (d*mn you Ennis).
Like when Ennis said "Sounds like high class entertainment.." and Jack said "For what it's worth." Which to me means: "I'd chuck it all in a heartbeat if you'd just give me the say-so. What good is all of that if I can't be with you?" Just IMO.
:\'( I love the interpretations!
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:\'( I love the interpretations!
I second. :)
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And later on, that painful phone call to Lureen; Lureen finally learns the significance of Brokeback Mountain and it's connection to Jack's fishing buddy all these years. She absorbs that for a second, and then tells Ennis "Well, he said it was his favorite place." She didn't have to volunteer that. To me, this is a gift that Lureen is giving Ennis, really saying "YOU were his favorite place; what you shared with Jack meant more to him than anything else in his life and he as much as told me so. It's right that you should know this, what you were to him".
Well said, MissRed. You're right that Lureen didn't have to tell Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favourite place, especially given what she's just realised the significance of the place, as well as how long Jack's heart had belonged to someone else. That she does offer the information shows that she clearly cared a lot for Jack, despite the coldness of her tone, and she knows that he would have wanted Ennis to know how important he was to Jack.
MissRed and NoReins - I really like your interpretaion of Lureen's words.
In terms of double meanings, I think Lureen's next two llines also have double meanings. She said them a bit sarcastically: " He said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot."
I thought he meant to get drunk, Translation: I didn't know he meant it was his favorite place because of you (Ennis).
He drank a lot, Translation: He was unhappy when he wasn't with you.
When Ennis told Lureen Brokeback Mountain was a place where Jack and Ennis herd some sheep back in the days, Lureen comes with the "well, he said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot." line.
If you put it in that perspective, imo she is saying: well, he loved going up there with you (he said it was his favourite place), I thought it was just a sexual graving for him (i thought to get drunk, he drank alot (meaning he had many sexual escapades), but I guess he really loved you. (because of his ashes he wanted to be scatered there)
I love the way how that comes back in the last line from lureen, 'meet his parrents, and see to it if his wishes are caried out. About the ashes i mean'
(forgive my if the lines are not exact quoted...)
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not (if so forgive me) and I always seem to have trouble articulating the thought in my mind. Lately when I've been watching the confrontation scene Jack saying "What in the hell happened to August?" keeps sticking out at me. I think it's safe to assume that August was when their love up on BBM was in full force before it was sadly stripped away from them all too soon. Now 20 years later when they are worn down from "their separate and diffcult lives" that comment seems almost wistful- like "how did we go from that to this?" instead of him asking why they couldn't meet in August. I hope that made sense :)
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Makes sense to me. And I hadn't really thought about it but you're right. Aguirre made them come down early when they should have had August on the mountain. Now Ennis tells him they can't meet in August. When Jack says "What in the Hell happened to August?", it's like he's saying "What in the Hell happened to our chance? What in the Hell happened to our chance to be together?"
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Yes! That's what i was trying to say ;D
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That's a beautiful example of double meaning. Okay then, what was Ennis's reply? Something like, "work is what happened." Work meaning "real life." Real life is what happened to their symbolic "August" and to this particular next trip they're trying to plan.
kathy
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Well said, MissRed. You're right that Lureen didn't have to tell Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favourite place, especially given what she's just realised the significance of the place, as well as how long Jack's heart had belonged to someone else. That she does offer the information shows that she clearly cared a lot for Jack, despite the coldness of her tone, and she knows that he would have wanted Ennis to know how important he was to Jack.
MissRed and NoReins - I really like your interpretation of Lureen's words.
In terms of double meanings, I think Lureen's next two lines also have double meanings. She said them a bit sarcastically: " He said it was his favorite place. I thought he meant to get drunk. He drank a lot."
I thought he meant to get drunk, Translation: I didn't know he meant it was his favorite place because of you (Ennis).
He drank a lot, Translation: He was unhappy when he wasn't with you.
I knew she was being a decent person but I really didn't like her (great acting Miss Hathaway) so much that I wouldn't let her be good. And you've convinced me of the error of my ways. I had caught on to the "I thought he meant to get drunk" being related to something like "But now I know it was you that made it so attractive to him," but not much else. Thanks. Great work.
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not (if so forgive me) and I always seem to have trouble articulating the thought in my mind. Lately when I've been watching the confrontation scene Jack saying "What in the hell happened to August?" keeps sticking out at me. I think it's safe to assume that August was when their love up on BBM was in full force before it was sadly stripped away from them all too soon. Now 20 years later when they are worn down from "their separate and diffcult lives" that comment seems almost wistful- like "how did we go from that to this?" instead of him asking why they couldn't meet in August. I hope that made sense :)
Like FlwrChild, this made sense. I too had a sense that it was a subtle indictment of how things have become more and more unsatisfactory over the years...
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That's a beautiful example of double meaning. Okay then, what was Ennis's reply? Something like, "work is what happened." Work meaning "real life." Real life is what happened to their symbolic "August" and to this particular next trip they're trying to plan.
kathy
And could it have meant: "our time/opportunity has passed"?
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It could indeed tpe.
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It could indeed tpe.
Too sad to contemplate! :(
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And could it have meant: "our time/opportunity has passed"?
God that is so sad. :\'( Great double meanings Kathy and Thomas.
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God that is so sad. :\'( Great double meanings Kathy and Thomas.
Sorry LJN. It's PBS all over again...
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"Whither is fled the visionary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"
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"Whither is fled the visionary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?
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I am thinking of the first postcard Jack sent. It said it's "long over due" leading me to believe that Jack thought about Ennis very often in those 4 years apart. Almost as if Jack , no matter what or who he got involved with, Including Lureen, he was going to see Ennis Del Mar again when all was said and done. Then Ennis responds with "You Bet" thats all. Maybe Ennis is saying Jack , you are betting I'm still in love with you? That Jack was just taking a chance after 4 years that Ennis had never forgot him. It is both discreet but to the point. As Jack "bet" , he was right. His confession in the hotel room the he did'nt know they were gonna "get into this again "was an obvious lie as he admitted to Ennis. That reunion kiss from Ennis told Jack he "bet" right as he soon found out.! My thoughts
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I am thinking of the first postcard Jack sent. It said it's "long over due" leading me to believe that Jack thought about Ennis very often in those 4 years apart . . . . . . Maybe Ennis is saying Jack, you are betting I'm still in love with you? . . .
Ain’t- I think your right about the “long over due” – a coy way Jack had of letting Ennis know that he’d wished he’d written earlier (because he’d been thinking about him all that time) without getting sentimental (i.e. queer).
Don't know where your located, but the “You Bet” reply is a common usage by common folks from the Allegany’s thru the Rockies. It’s an emphatic agreement on a sure thing, so it’s a bit harder for me to read any “betting” or wager meaning into this. Poor Ennis, being so “vocabulary disadvantaged” probably couldn’t think of anything better to express his eagerness. ;) Just MHO.
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“ . . . am pretty good with a can opener though”
Is Jack able to open the “can” that is Ennis? Emotions, fears, loves, all bottled up, sealed inside waiting to get out if only the right person with the right opener would come along and set it free. It’s not Alma, it’s not Cassie, was Jack able to use his professed skill to open up Ennis? Or did he just make a mess of it as he did with the can a beans?
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Oh, I like that jackster. O0
And it may have turned out a bit messy, but I bet it was still worth the trouble because it fed their souls in a way nothing else could.
What a great movie. What a great thread. ^f^
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Ditto FC O0 I like that interpretation Jackster- never thought of it that way. :)
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Ditto FC O0 I like that interpretation Jackster- never thought of it that way. :)
Me, too, jackster -- that's a good one. Perfectly apt to Jack getting Ennis to open up. Of course, being Jack, he says he's good at it (like he says ain't no mare's gonna throw him) but then we see his clumsiness. He's a brave man, though -- not afraid to try even though his clumsiness might be seen (shooting, all of it) and he just keeps on keeping on, powered by love and dreams. (He sure wasn't clumsy either FNIT or SNIT, though.)
Okay, then there is this, following up on the clumsy use of can opener scene:
Ennis: "Want some of this hot water?" Jack: "It's all yours."
I'm not that good at this -- someone else have a go at that one?
kathy
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I don't know if goes to the topic:
But remember when Ennis was thrown from the horse, and lost the provisions. When Jack wanted to take care of the "food situation", he wanted to shoot one of the sheep, but Ennis was dead set against it. "I"ll stick with beans". Jack said, "I won't" in defiant tone.
Ennis didn't want to do anything against rules, he felt they couldn't change it so they had stand it, He was afraid of getting caught by Aguirre. Jack wasn't standing for it, he was willing to take the chance, they didn't have to eat just beans.
Isn't this what was going on in their relationship?
Sorry if this was already bought up.
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"I"ll stick with beans". - "I won't"
Isn't this what was going on in their relationship?
I've always considered these two lines, only six words, to be a metaphor for the entire relationship from start to finish.
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As "no more beans" can be seen as Jack's way of saying that he doesn't intend sticking to the rules any more - is this the point where he decides to go for it with Ennis?
My favorite quotation, "See you in the morning"., also has deeper meanings IMO. This is Ennis's way of saying that he'll be there when Jack comes, as in fact in future he always is, that there is a tomorrow.
And it's what lovers say - when you part and want to make sure that it's only temporary.The irony in the movie, of course, is that after this Jack doesn't see Ennis again.
It's also a reminder, given where it's placed, that we should make the most of today, because tomorrow is something we can never make rely on, whatever promises we make. Carpe diem again.
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Wow. You guys are killing me.
And I completely agree with the 'no more beans' interpretations.
And welshwitch, what you said is why I always get this sense of desperation when Ennis says "See you in the morning." If only we knew which moments in life we really need to seize while they're happening.
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"There's never ever enough time. Never Enough."
I don't know why but I always see this as a precurser to Jack's demise.
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"I doubt there's a philly that can throw me" Could Jack be admitting gayness? Philly , in my neck of the woods it's a female horse, but could be reference to a woman too. In any case he was wrong. He got thrown by both the mare and Lureen.
FNIT:, Ennis- " What are you doin"? ---I like the direction your goin ! Obvioulsy he KNOWS what Jack is doing! Comon Ennis , you can't fool Mother Nature son. What's with the mock stuggle? LOL
Jack and the color blue... Blue eyes, blue shirts, blue tent, blue parka, steals Ennis's blue and white shirt? blue jeans, blue trucks What up here?Is he saying Ennis likes him in blue? Ennis even drives a blue and white truck!What the hell....?
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"I doubt there's a philly that can throw me" Could Jack be admitting gayness?
Don't know about coming out here, maybe. Always thought this was just more JFT bravado, like bein' "pretty good with a can opener" (not!). But the SS horse descriptions and choices are interesting, Jack picks a "bay mare" and Ennis "a big chestnut" which I've assumed is a gelding. Curious connection and association with the boys, Jack picks a female, Ennis takes an emasculated male, hmmm . . . I don't know enough about horses or the horse world to know if this is significant in any real way.
Ennis- " What are you doin"? . . . What's with the mock stuggle? LOL
Well, you know, Ennis thinks he's a straight boy, so he's gotta put up some sort 'a struggle. 'Course it don't last long . . . ;)
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Jackster, why do I feel I have to whisper all of a sudden? ;D ....I find your comments about the horses very interesting indeed ! Any significance? It says alot about both of them and I'd say but there maybe children present. And as for Ennis's *mock stuggle, ? Well we Know he shoots straight anyway. Poor boy did'nt realize which side his bread was butterd on. Jack was just tryin to help him out a little.You understand I'm sure. lol
Don't know if this has been said, but what about Signal, Wy. It's where Jack and Ennis met. Maybe they both thought of this place often because of what it represents.A signal of hope and love.
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Jack was just tryin to help him out a little. You understand . . .
You bet!
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"I doubt there's a philly that can throw me" Could Jack be admitting gayness? Philly , in my neck of the woods it's a female horse, but could be reference to a woman too. In any case he was wrong. He got thrown by both the mare and Lureen.
In both cases, they got lucky. ;)
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“ . . . am pretty good with a can opener though”
Is Jack able to open the “can” that is Ennis? Emotions, fears, loves, all bottled up, sealed inside waiting to get out if only the right person with the right opener would come along and set it free. It’s not Alma, it’s not Cassie, was Jack able to use his professed skill to open up Ennis? Or did he just make a mess of it as he did with the can a beans?
I echo the other in saying thanks, jackster. Indeed, I had not thought of it this way... Really excellent.
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Okay, then there is this, following up on the clumsy use of can opener scene:
Ennis: "Want some of this hot water?" Jack: "It's all yours."
I'm not that good at this -- someone else have a go at that one?
kathy
kathy, I had the same thought, actually. Especially the way Jack said it: "It's all yours." I don't know if this was intentional, but it did strike me as a double-edged exchange...
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I don't know if goes to the topic:
But remember when Ennis was thrown from the horse, and lost the provisions. When Jack wanted to take care of the "food situation", he wanted to shoot one of the sheep, but Ennis was dead set against it. "I"ll stick with beans". Jack said, "I won't" in defiant tone.
Ennis didn't want to do anything against rules, he felt they couldn't change it so they had stand it, He was afraid of getting caught by Aguirre. Jack wasn't standing for it, he was willing to take the chance, they didn't have to eat just beans.
Isn't this what was going on in their relationship?
Sorry if this was already bought up.
manhattangirl, this is certainly not out of topic. In fact, I do think someone also touched on this in a very similar way, so you are not the only one who read a double meaning in this exchange. Not so sure if it was posted in this thread, so it is good that you bring it up here...
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I've always considered these two lines, only six words, to be a metaphor for the entire relationship from start to finish.
Exactly!
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"There's never ever enough time. Never Enough."
I don't know why but I always see this as a precurser to Jack's demise.
...in the sense that he probably had a feeling that he did not have that much time.
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"I doubt there's a philly that can throw me" Could Jack be admitting gayness? Philly , in my neck of the woods it's a female horse, but could be reference to a woman too. In any case he was wrong. He got thrown by both the mare and Lureen.
I never thought of it this way, but I did get a feeling that there was an underlying meaning here. I interpreted it as Jack saying that he always got what he wanted through persistence.
FNIT:, Ennis- " What are you doin"? ---I like the direction your goin ! Obvioulsy he KNOWS what Jack is doing! Comon Ennis , you can't fool Mother Nature son. What's with the mock stuggle? LOL
He certainly did know, and it was appropriate that Jack gave him no answer.
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You could take the "filly" remark as proleptic irony too - there wasn't a woman that could throw Jack, but there was a man, though he didn't realise it.
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You could take the "filly" remark as proleptic irony too - there wasn't a woman that could throw Jack, but there was a man, though he didn't realise it.
(t)
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Jackster, why do I feel I have to whisper all of a sudden? ;D ....I find your comments about the horses very interesting indeed ! Any significance? It says alot about both of them and I'd say but there maybe children present. And as for Ennis's *mock stuggle, ? Well we Know he shoots straight anyway. Poor boy did'nt realize which side his bread was butterd on. Jack was just tryin to help him out a little.You understand I'm sure. lol
Don't know if this has been said, but what about Signal, Wy. It's where Jack and Ennis met. Maybe they both thought of this place often because of what it represents.A signal of hope and love.
Jackster's horse analogies quite interesting, yes.
As for Signal, aintfoolin, there is also "signal" in the sense of "gaydar."
kathy
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You could take the "filly" remark as proleptic irony too - there wasn't a woman that could throw Jack, but there was a man, though he didn't realise it.
Aha -- this hasn't been pointed out in just this way. This is so true.
kathy
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"Signal" as an adjective also means distinguished or conspicuous. Doesn't seem to apply to the place as we see it in the movie!
The line that makes me smile as a sort of double entendre is Jack's "You goin' to do this again next summer?" I know he means working on Brokeback, but it also seems to suggest spending time with Ennis doing things other than herding sheep. Then ennis says that he's getting married, and that makes me think there's a hidden sense of this being his declaration that he's going back to being "normal", not "queer". In other words to me this exchange is another version of the summer's being a one-shot thing to Ennis.
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The line that makes me smile as a sort of double entendre is Jack's "You goin' to do this again next summer?" I know he means working on Brokeback, but it also seems to suggest spending time with Ennis doing things other than herding sheep. Then ennis says that he's getting married, and that makes me think there's a hidden sense of this being his declaration that he's going back to being "normal", not "queer". In other words to me this exchange is another version of the summer's being a one-shot thing to Ennis.
Well said, WW. Even Jack's look when he asked this questions bespeaks an implied (and understood) meaning!
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Well said, WW. Even Jack's look when he asked this questions bespeaks an implied (and understood) meaning!
yeah
ennis can't accept his love for jack...only at the end he'll understand his mistakes. On my opinion he says he'll marry Alma because he doesn't want to live like a queer and he gives up happiness with Jack. But he repents...I swear...
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The line that makes me smile as a double entendre is Jack's "You goin' to do this again next summer?" . . . . Then Ennis says that he's getting married, and . . . there's a hidden sense of this being his declaration that he's going back to being "normal", not "queer". To me this exchange is another version of the summer's being a one-shot thing to Ennis.
Exactly. To me this heartbreaking exchange is also another entirely different, but every bit as effective, version of stating their emotional desires and fears as the "I'll stick with beans . . . . I won't" exchange at the beginning of the summer. The way Annie has subtly twisted and reversed the roles here, Jack now wanting to do the same again, Ennis now (says) wants the change, it's an amazing bit of writers craftsmanship.
Then, of course, as it was Ennis who shot the elk to feed their stomachs, it becomes Jack's turn to write the postcard to feed their hearts. Gee whiz, is she GOOD!!
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yeah
ennis can't accept his love for jack...only at the end he'll understand his mistakes. On my opinion he says he'll marry Alma because he doesn't want to live like a queer and he gives up happiness with Jack. But he repents...I swear...
OT: fairy, how curious that you mention here what I just posted in the thread about when they knew they were in love...
I agree with you.
"You goin' to do this again next summer?" is also an admission of weakness: Jack exposed himself to the possibility of rejection. That was why he had that look when he said it. Essentially he was at a moment of vulnerability, and Ennis read this underlying/hidden meaning.
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One of the lines I think no-one has mentioned is that quick comment when Jack is shown letting Bobby drive that tractor ( or whatever it is - some big machine that I wouldn't know what to do with, anyway). Bobby has his hands on the whel and Jack is sitting behind him and says, "It's all yours, bobby. It's all yours." Of course he's saying that he's letting Bobby drive the thing ( in circles!) but to me he's also saying that the Newsome farm machinery business is all Bobby's too, or will be when he's grown up, and tthat Jack has no intention of sticking with it. I think he's already hoping that he's going to end up far away from Childress and with Ennis not Lureen - at this point he's still optimistic that things will change.
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I never really thought about it that way, welshwitch. I like it. O0
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Excellent WW- I never thought of that :)
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One of the lines I think no-one has mentioned is that quick comment when Jack is shown letting Bobby drive that tractor ( or whatever it is - some big machine that I wouldn't know what to do with, anyway). Bobby has his hands on the whel and Jack is sitting behind him and says, "It's all yours, bobby. It's all yours." Of course he's saying that he's letting Bobby drive the thing ( in circles!) but to me he's also saying that the Newsome farm machinery business is all Bobby's too, or will be when he's grown up, and tthat Jack has no intention of sticking with it. I think he's already hoping that he's going to end up far away from Childress and with Ennis not Lureen - at this point he's still optimistic that things will change.
So true. It is both a statement of fact and a prophecy.
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"Anything interesting up there in heaven?"
Jack asks Ennis at the reunion campfire.
Do you suppose Ennis ever reflects on this question years later, after Jack was dead, and he was sitting around a campfire all by himself, thinking of what was up there in heaven?
(Even though Jack had thought he (and Ennis) was gonna' be "marched off to hell" ???)
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One of the lines I think no-one has mentioned is that quick comment when Jack is shown letting Bobby drive that tractor ( or whatever it is - some big machine that I wouldn't know what to do with, anyway). Bobby has his hands on the whel and Jack is sitting behind him and says, "It's all yours, bobby. It's all yours." Of course he's saying that he's letting Bobby drive the thing ( in circles!) but to me he's also saying that the Newsome farm machinery business is all Bobby's too, or will be when he's grown up, and tthat Jack has no intention of sticking with it. I think he's already hoping that he's going to end up far away from Childress and with Ennis not Lureen - at this point he's still optimistic that things will change.
Never thought of that either, but that's so true!
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"Anything interesting up there in heaven?"
Jack asks Ennis at the reunion campfire.
Do you suppose Ennis ever reflects on this question years later, after Jack was dead, and he was sitting around a campfire all by himself, thinking of what was up there in heaven?
(Even though Jack had thought he (and Ennis) was gonna' be "marched off to hell" ???)
Its kind of ironic that it was Jack that ask this, but it was him who'll know the answer first. I guess poor Jack got his answer and poor Ennis will have to wait for the answer. It seems that Ennis have to spend the rest of his days in a hell like situation with out Jack.
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I don't know if this been mentioned already, or is my though going anywhere with this, but...
Ain't no reins on this one
Ennis saying to Jack, that he (Ennis) can't control his feelings, even if he wanted to, and Jack just has to be patient, and not try to fix it, and just stand it?
I dunno.. just my 2 cents..
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Another..
"It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this"
Could Ennis be blameing Jack for his "gayness" ?
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hpv, I second NoReins's comment. AS FlwrChild said, it is wonderful to see how many levels of meaning we can bring out in the various scenes.
Perhaps a stretch, but:
"You are welcome to go up in his room if you want."
Translation: "Go see how much he loved you."
:\'( :\'(
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Ok, I'm not gonna dig too deep here, but I was wondering.
I know many seem to get (some of) the humor in these scene, but how much? The people I've asked before don't seem to be on the same wavelength as me here:
When Jack's on his back, playing his harmonica, and Ennis is 'fixing' the tent he says to Jack, "I thought you said that mare couldn't throw you", Jack replies,
"I guess she got lucky"
We all seem to enjoy the joke when Ennis says, "Yea well if I got lucky that harmonica woulda broken too"
I think it's a good pun. Maybe leading the idea of getting lucky with Jack, but Ennis likes to mock the sound of the harmonica, sure, and it was his way of saying 'shut up' lol, but does anyone find that he also suggests he'd have been lucky if the harmonica had 'broke in two', suggesting it'd be nice if there were two harmonicas so Ennis could play one as well, but that it'd ultimately be better if the sumbitch just busted, end of story? And also maybe a hint that Jack was broken himself and needed fixing? ;D
I've probably butchered the idea, but everytime I watch that scene I pick up a dynamic of wit(s).
What do you guys think? Do you see it the same; do you think I'm looney; do you hear part or all of these jokes/puns; do you hear different ones?
I'd like to know. Go on, I'm a man, I can take it! ;D :i
:c)
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That's good one, Justin. And maybe Ennis wanted the harmonica broken, so he could only hear Jack's sweet voice?
:)
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One of the lines I think no-one has mentioned is that quick comment when Jack is shown letting Bobby drive that tractor ( or whatever it is - some big machine that I wouldn't know what to do with, anyway). Bobby has his hands on the whel and Jack is sitting behind him and says, "It's all yours, bobby. It's all yours." Of course he's saying that he's letting Bobby drive the thing ( in circles!) but to me he's also saying that the Newsome farm machinery business is all Bobby's too, or will be when he's grown up, and tthat Jack has no intention of sticking with it. I think he's already hoping that he's going to end up far away from Childress and with Ennis not Lureen - at this point he's still optimistic that things will change.
Nice post, ww. ^f^
I also like to think it's his (maybe subconscious) way of instilling in his son the idea of free love, taking control of his (love) life and not being falsely directed; Jack shows him how to take the wheel, introduces freedom nonetheless.
Having been separated from my father figure really early on, perhaps I'm overlooking, but given my status I tend to think not.
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That's good one, Justin. And maybe Ennis wanted the harmonica broken, so he could only hear Jack's sweet voice?
:)
^f^ I couldn't disagree even if I wanted to. :cr)
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Jack's harmonica playing was off. Their relationship was a little off key too. But just like his musical talent he never gave up trying to get it right, He finally got the misic right, but he did'nt fare so well or *get lucky* when Ennis threw him by not committing to live with him.
Besides , I think Ennis loved Jack's harmonica playing. His teasing was just Ennis's way of being warm and fuzzy with Jack though he'd never admit it.
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Jack's harmonica playing was off. Their relationship was a little off key too. But just like his musical talent he never gave up trying to get it right, He finally got the misic right, but he did'nt fare so well or *get lucky* when Ennis threw him by not committing to live with him.
Besides , I think Ennis loved Jack's harmonica playing. His teasing was just Ennis's way of being warm and fuzzy with Jack though he'd never admit it.
O0
I simply won't bitch that I'm easily amused. ;D
I remember when I first saw this scene, being a bit caught off guard at Ennis saying something layered and witty. The combination of Ennis' punched out words and his wit in this scene was a subtle and brilliant work of art done by Ang I'd figured.
Love it. <^(
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"Anything interesting up there in heaven?"
Jack asks Ennis at the reunion campfire.
Do you suppose Ennis ever reflects on this question years later, after Jack was dead, and he was sitting around a campfire all by himself, thinking of what was up there in heaven?
(Even though Jack had thought he (and Ennis) was gonna' be "marched off to hell" ???)
Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!
Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."
Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?
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Another..
"It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this"
Could Ennis be blameing Jack for his "gayness" ?
There could indeed be multiple meanings to this statement, no? For one, he could be blaming Jack for his financial condition and his lack of anything stable in the later years. ON a deeper note, he is blaming Jack for his inner state -- and possibly his "gayness".
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Ok, I'm not gonna dig too deep here, but I was wondering.
I know many seem to get (some of) the humor in these scene, but how much? The people I've asked before don't seem to be on the same wavelength as me here:
When Jack's on his back, playing his harmonica, and Ennis is 'fixing' the tent he says to Jack, "I thought you said that mare couldn't throw you", Jack replies,
"I guess she got lucky"
We all seem to enjoy the joke when Ennis says, "Yea well if I got lucky that harmonica woulda broken too"
I think it's a good pun. Maybe leading the idea of getting lucky with Jack, but Ennis likes to mock the sound of the harmonica, sure, and it was his way of saying 'shut up' lol, but does anyone find that he also suggests he'd have been lucky if the harmonica had 'broke in two', suggesting it'd be nice if there were two harmonicas so Ennis could play one as well, but that it'd ultimately be better if the sumbitch just busted, end of story? And also maybe a hint that Jack was broken himself and needed fixing? ;D
I've probably butchered the idea, but everytime I watch that scene I pick up a dynamic of wit(s).
What do you guys think? Do you see it the same; do you think I'm looney; do you hear part or all of these jokes/puns; do you hear different ones?
I'd like to know. Go on, I'm a man, I can take it! ;D :i
:c)
I like the ideas here. :) One can't help thinking of the two of them here, especially since the name "Twist" is supposed to represent Jack trying not to get thrown off his mount...
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Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!
Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."
Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?
This is plausible, Jack using the past tense *could've* , but I've alwats tended to think Jack was speaking in terms of all the wasted years where thet could have been living the sweet life together as he dreamed they would after the reunion scene when he fiirst suggested it.
Jack was feeling the dream was lost because of it. My take.
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This is plausible, Jack using the past tense *could've* , but I've alwats tended to think Jack was speaking in terms of all the wasted years where thet could have been living the sweet life together as he dreamed they would after the reunion scene when he fiirst suggested it.
Jack was feeling the dream was lost because of it. My take.
Yes, I think that he must have been primarily referring to the wasted years. But it also somehow suggested for me a sense of an impending end.
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Ok, I'm not gonna dig too deep here, but I was wondering.
I know many seem to get (some of) the humor in these scene, but how much? The people I've asked before don't seem to be on the same wavelength as me here:
When Jack's on his back, playing his harmonica, and Ennis is 'fixing' the tent he says to Jack, "I thought you said that mare couldn't throw you", Jack replies,
"I guess she got lucky"
We all seem to enjoy the joke when Ennis says, "Yea well if I got lucky that harmonica woulda broken too"
I think it's a good pun. Maybe leading the idea of getting lucky with Jack, but Ennis likes to mock the sound of the harmonica, sure, and it was his way of saying 'shut up' lol, but does anyone find that he also suggests he'd have been lucky if the harmonica had 'broke in two', suggesting it'd be nice if there were two harmonicas so Ennis could play one as well, but that it'd ultimately be better if the sumbitch just busted, end of story? And also maybe a hint that Jack was broken himself and needed fixing? ;D
I've probably butchered the idea, but everytime I watch that scene I pick up a dynamic of wit(s).
What do you guys think? Do you see it the same; do you think I'm looney; do you hear part or all of these jokes/puns; do you hear different ones?
I'd like to know. Go on, I'm a man, I can take it! ;D :i
:c)
I think it was more in the *deadpan* way that he said it that made me laugh. ( Even Jack laughed) . I feel it was just a tease just like later, when Ennis says " you'll scare them sheep off again if you don;t quiet down" Again it's his voice. That deep mid-western drawl and yes the way he almost punches the words out. It's as though his words come out of the blue and ya don't expect him to be so witty,givin his overall quiet , bashful manner.
It's Ennis being light. Does it several times in the film. When he relates to Jack what his dad thought of "rodeo cowboys" Jack gives him that look and gives the " the hell they are" . Ennis just looks at Jack and says" well" and that's all, suggesting that Jack was a f_ck-up too. Jack then goes into his little "rodeo ride" making Ennis's face light up like a Christmas tree for the first time in the film. I love it too.
The horses and mules even looked startled and curious when Jack fell. What a charming goofball Jack is Now that's funny.
-
Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!
Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."
Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?
"I ain't queer"
Similar to how that split-open sheep that lay like violent art in front of a somehow emotional Ennis that first Summer foreshadowed the fate of this homosexual relationship, "We coulda had a good life together" confirms.
All those years having fallen against him had rendered Jack this premonition, if not the wrecked equivelent of a threatening rejection from Ennis -- his blurred profile, hard spit to the ground and his back the violent art this time. Jack could no longer fool himself into believing Ennis could change. Ennis was Brokeback Mountain, as was Jack. This is what he came to know as he burst out, ".. and what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! ..": The mountain had taken a sheep, but this time it would take a real man. Jack was sur'nuf about as well off as knowing he would die tomorrow, seeing his love deteriorate now. Feeling that dozy embrace bleed to death as Ennis' truck stirred dust around the bend.
On horseback that Summer, staring down at something tragic, at something he couldn't understand, Ennis found an open bloody pair of shirts. Middle aged, watching Ennis walk away, Jack sees something awful, almost like a reflection on Ennis' back; the mountain had their love.
One gem, one lesson is that you don't f*** with mother nature; and, Ennis, you don't suppress it. Remember that.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F002ezfr3&hash=04ab83375bc777fdaabf37c562c2fb54275effd5)
:\'(
-
I think it was more in the *deadpan* way that he said it that made me laugh. ( Even Jack laughed) . I feel it was just a tease just like later, when Ennis says " you'll scare them sheep off again if you don;t quiet down" Again it's his voice. That deep mid-western drawl and yes the way he almost punches the words out. It's as though his words come out of the blue and ya don't expect him to be so witty,givin his overall quiet , bashful manner.
It's Ennis being light. Does it several times in the film. When he relates to Jack what his dad thought of "rodeo cowboys" Jack gives him that look and gives the " the hell they are" . Ennis just looks at Jack and says" well" and that's all, suggesting that Jack was a f_ck-up too. Jack then goes into his little "rodeo ride" making Ennis's face light up like a Christmas tree for the first time in the film. I love it too.
The horses and mules even looked startled and curious when Jack fell. What a charming goofball Jack is Now that's funny.
Yep, simple enough, charming. That's our Ennis. But Ang leaves a lot to the imagination, and mine certainly is a vulture in that its instinct is to take advantage. ;D
$)
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There could indeed be multiple meanings to this statement, no? For one, he could be blaming Jack for his financial condition and his lack of anything stable in the later years. ON a deeper note, he is blaming Jack for his inner state -- and possibly his "gayness".
I read so much into this line. Ennis is so lost by this part in the movie and he needs someone to blame it on. Jack is that person.
He's divorced and living alone in that little trailer. He can't bring himself to love another woman no matter how much or
how little he tried with Cassie. You know he wants to be with Jack but can't because of what his father did to him so many years ago.
If Jack hadn't died i think he would have been content on a couple of "high alltitude f*cks once or twice a year" for the rest of his life.
so sad :( :(
This line and when Jack say's out by the fire "sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it" are the two lines
where i can't control my crying no matter how many times i've seen it. :\'(
-
O0
I simply won't bitch that I'm easily amused. ;D
I remember when I first saw this scene, being a bit caught off guard at Ennis saying something layered and witty. The combination of Ennis' punched out words and his wit in this scene was a subtle and brilliant work of art done by Ang I'd figured.
Love it. <^(
Do you think Ennis ever said " you'll scare the sheep off again, if you don't quiet down" while they were ....well you know..? That look they gave each other after Ennis said this maybe telling!... as if Jack has heard it before? Or am imagining too much? ;) :) ;)
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Do you think Ennis ever said " you'll scare the sheep off again, if you don't quiet down" while they were ....well you know..? That look they gave each other after Ennis said this maybe telling!... as if Jack has heard it before? Or am imagining too much? ;) :) ;)
Oh man, I like this one aintfoolin'. O0
Here I always thought them sheep got scared by the lightin' and thunder storm that night. Your sayin' maybe it was the noises coming from the tent? So when Jack says "You'll get pitched off your mount in a storm like this" he's not talkin' about no horse?
%&) How'd I miss that one?
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Oh man, I like this one aintfoolin'. O0
Here I always thought them sheep got scared by the lightin' and thunder storm that night. Your sayin' maybe it was the noises coming from the tent? So when Jack says "You'll get pitched off your mount in a storm like this" he's not talkin' about no horse?
%&) How'd I miss that one?
:8
Nice.
-
"I ain't queer"
Similar to how that split-open sheep that lay like violent art in front of a somehow emotional Ennis that first Summer foreshadowed the fate of this homosexual relationship, "We coulda had a good life together" confirms.
All those years having fallen against him had rendered Jack this premonition, if not the wrecked equivelent of a threatening rejection from Ennis -- his blurred profile, hard spit to the ground and his back the violent art this time. Jack could no longer fool himself into believing Ennis could change. Ennis was Brokeback Mountain, as was Jack. This is what he came to know as he burst out, ".. and what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! ..": The mountain had taken a sheep, but this time it would take a real man. Jack was sur'nuf about as well off as knowing he would die tomorrow, seeing his love deteriorate now. Feeling that dozy embrace bleed to death as Ennis' truck stirred dust around the bend.
On horseback that Summer, staring down at something tragic, at something he couldn't understand, Ennis found an open bloody pair of shirts. Middle aged, watching Ennis walk away, Jack sees something awful, almost like a reflection on Ennis' back; the mountain had their love.
One gem, one lesson is that you don't f*** with mother nature; and, Ennis, you don't suppress it. Remember that.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F002ezfr3&hash=04ab83375bc777fdaabf37c562c2fb54275effd5)
:\'(
The remains of the sheep is an image that does embody multiple meanings, as discussed in the thread dealing with this scene.
Perhaps Ennis heeded the premonition -- but alas, in the wrong way! :(
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I read so much into this line. Ennis is so lost by this part in the movie and he needs someone to blame it on. Jack is that person.
He's divorced and living alone in that little trailer. He can't bring himself to love another woman no matter how much or
how little he tried with Cassie. You know he wants to be with Jack but can't because of what his father did to him so many years ago.
If Jack hadn't died i think he would have been content on a couple of "high alltitude f*cks once or twice a year" for the rest of his life.
so sad :( :(
This line and when Jack say's out by the fire "sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it" are the two lines
where i can't control my crying no matter how many times i've seen it. :\'(
Thanks maggie, for sharing this. Yes, these two lines always bring tears to my eyes. They are so simple and straightforward on one level -- but we understand all too well the hidden meanings in each one!
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The remains of the sheep is an image that does embody multiple meanings, as discussed in the thread dealing with this scene.
Perhaps Ennis heeded the premonition -- but alas, in the wrong way! :(
Wrong I would say, sure. :s)
The usual way, yes.
Ennis responds to devastation in a very prominent, stifled manner, no?
I think if Earl had ever been swallowed, overcome, he was then brilliantly displayed in that sheep's crimson open-gut stage.
Stage fright/Ennis - day/night.
I've been intrigued by the similarities in these Ennis lines, checkpoints around the mountain so to speak:
Ennis: This is a one shot thing we got goin' here.
***
Jack, pulling a sheep by its hine legs: f*** Aguire!
Ennis: f*** Aguire? ... we gotta stick this out, Jack.
***
Ennis: .. if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it! :-\\
Jack: .. for how long? ???
Ennis: As long as we can ride it.
***
Jack: What are we gonna do now? :-\\
Ennis: I doubt there's nothin' we can do. ???
***
Now, these aren't necessarily double meanings but they filter out like pebbles of fool's gold in my mind, especially once we see Ennis collapse in Jack's embrace: I can't stand this anymore, Jack, ahh! :\'(
I think Ennis was wiser than he'd thought himself, saying what he had. But it was so impossible for him to hear anything other than the wicked chimes of the once Earl. And now Ennis hears chimes again, the rhythm, the melody of Jack, a man with whom he'd found love without condition, blowing over the grass of the great open plain. Something that will never die as long as the winds still blow. This must be hauntingly beautiful music in his ears.
And replacing Earl, replacing the lame, still-framed sheep, this one here is his.
And always will be.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F002gd57y&hash=b6abbb7242e3569c277b376b5e8566ec66b3485d)
:\'(
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Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!
Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."
Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?
Oh God :\'( - that scene is so hard to take as it is
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"I ain't queer"
Similar to how that split-open sheep that lay like violent art in front of a somehow emotional Ennis that first Summer foreshadowed the fate of this homosexual relationship, "We coulda had a good life together" confirms.
All those years having fallen against him had rendered Jack this premonition, if not the wrecked equivelent of a threatening rejection from Ennis -- his blurred profile, hard spit to the ground and his back the violent art this time. Jack could no longer fool himself into believing Ennis could change. Ennis was Brokeback Mountain, as was Jack. This is what he came to know as he burst out, ".. and what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! ..": The mountain had taken a sheep, but this time it would take a real man. Jack was sur'nuf about as well off as knowing he would die tomorrow, seeing his love deteriorate now. Feeling that dozy embrace bleed to death as Ennis' truck stirred dust around the bend.
On horseback that Summer, staring down at something tragic, at something he couldn't understand, Ennis found an open bloody pair of shirts. Middle aged, watching Ennis walk away, Jack sees something awful, almost like a reflection on Ennis' back; the mountain had their love.
One gem, one lesson is that you don't f*** with mother nature; and, Ennis, you don't suppress it. Remember that.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F002ezfr3&hash=04ab83375bc777fdaabf37c562c2fb54275effd5)
:\'(
OMG This is so sad and beautiful :\'(
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Oh man, I like this one aintfoolin'. O0
Here I always thought them sheep got scared by the lightin' and thunder storm that night. Your sayin' maybe it was the noises coming from the tent? So when Jack says "You'll get pitched off your mount in a storm like this" he's not talkin' about no horse?
%&) How'd I miss that one?
;D oh I needed that after the last few posts I read- I love them aintfoolin and Jackster O0
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Jack's harmonica playing was off. Their relationship was a little off key too. But just like his musical talent he never gave up trying to get it right, He finally got the misic right, but he did'nt fare so well or *get lucky* when Ennis threw him by not committing to live with him.
Besides , I think Ennis loved Jack's harmonica playing. His teasing was just Ennis's way of being warm and fuzzy with Jack though he'd never admit it.
Exactly, aintfoolin -- the word "threw" is significant here. And the whole thing of Jack being off-key (to Ennis's old ways of thinking anyway). Off-key, even "twisted," you could say.
As for Ennis razzing Jack about his harmonica playing, I also see it as like an endearment, when he does that. The best way he knows of at that time to be "warm and fuzzy" with Jack.
kathy
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O0
I simply won't bitch that I'm easily amused. ;D
I remember when I first saw this scene, being a bit caught off guard at Ennis saying something layered and witty. The combination of Ennis' punched out words and his wit in this scene was a subtle and brilliant work of art done by Ang I'd figured.
Love it. <^(
Yes, and to show them starting to get more comfortable with each other. Or, more accurately, to show Ennis getting more comfortable.
kathy
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Hell would be Heaven with the two of them there!
Another one that just occured to me: "We could have had a good life together..."
Somehow, I feel here a premonition that life would soon be over -- for Jack, I mean. Did he somehow sense that this was the last time?
Maybe not so specifically, but certainly at that point in his life, in our lives, we come to think there might be less ahead of us than behind us. That statement does seem to indicate that Jack had given up on his dream with Ennis by that point...but then, when Ennis broke down, and he throws up his hands and gives in, once again, it would seem he is willing to not throw away the dream just yet.
kathy
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I think it was more in the *deadpan* way that he said it that made me laugh. ( Even Jack laughed) . I feel it was just a tease just like later, when Ennis says " you'll scare them sheep off again if you don;t quiet down" Again it's his voice. That deep mid-western drawl and yes the way he almost punches the words out. It's as though his words come out of the blue and ya don't expect him to be so witty,givin his overall quiet , bashful manner.
It's Ennis being light. Does it several times in the film. When he relates to Jack what his dad thought of "rodeo cowboys" Jack gives him that look and gives the " the hell they are" . Ennis just looks at Jack and says" well" and that's all, suggesting that Jack was a f_ck-up too. Jack then goes into his little "rodeo ride" making Ennis's face light up like a Christmas tree for the first time in the film. I love it too.
The horses and mules even looked startled and curious when Jack fell. What a charming goofball Jack is Now that's funny.
Oh yes -- Ennis's moments of lightness and dry wit are so charming! Especially the one you mention. He knows he'll get a rise out of Jack by saying that. His way of encouraging Jack to be Jack for him, to amuse them both.
kathy
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Do you think Ennis ever said " you'll scare the sheep off again, if you don't quiet down" while they were ....well you know..? That look they gave each other after Ennis said this maybe telling!... as if Jack has heard it before? Or am imagining too much? ;) :) ;)
Oh god I love this! Never thought of it. No, you are not imagining too much!
That look between them (though we just see Ennis's face) I have always felt is distinctly flirtatious, or sharing some erotic connection, something like that. I love the idea that Jack is noisy in the tent (or wherever). Probably scared the sh*t out of Ennis the first time. I mean, not FNIT, but first time Jack came nice and long let's say...
kathy
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My imagination just went totally wild just now! OMG, the pictures going thru my mind ........
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Oh god I love this! Never thought of it. No, you are not imagining too much!
That look between them (though we just see Ennis's face) I have always felt is distinctly flirtatious, or sharing some erotic connection, something like that. I love the idea that Jack is noisy in the tent (or wherever). Probably scared the sh*t out of Ennis the first time. I mean, not FNIT, but first time Jack came nice and long let's say...
kathy
Oh Lord. Just to imagine that, makes me (t)
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Oh yes. Jack 'arrrrrriiiiiiving' anywhere always makes me (^) (t) ^-^ >:D :i *^) <^( (:) $)
^f^
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Maybe not so specifically, but certainly at that point in his life, in our lives, we come to think there might be less ahead of us than behind us. That statement does seem to indicate that Jack had given up on his dream with Ennis by that point...but then, when Ennis broke down, and he throws up his hands and gives in, once again, it would seem he is willing to not throw away the dream just yet.
kathy
This certainly makes sense. Thank you, kathy.
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I think Ennis was wiser than he'd thought himself, saying what he had. But it was so impossible for him to hear anything other than the wicked chimes of the once Earl. And now Ennis hears chimes again, the rhythm, the melody of Jack, a man with whom he'd found love without condition, blowing over the grass of the great open plain. Something that will never die as long as the winds still blow. This must be hauntingly beautiful music in his ears.
And replacing Earl, replacing the lame, still-framed sheep, this one here is his.
And always will be.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F002gd57y&hash=b6abbb7242e3569c277b376b5e8566ec66b3485d)
:\'(
Jack f*ckin Twist, he's got it all figured out...
At least this would also seem to be an underhanded admission from Ennis that Jack did have things figured out. Perhaps Ennis resented the fact that he could never pull away from the spectre of Earl. But perhaps he understood what Jack was offering as an alternative...
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Jack f*ckin Twist, he's got it all figured out...
At least this would also seem to be an underhanded admission from Ennis that Jack did have things figured out. Perhaps Ennis resented the fact that he could never pull away from the spectre of Earl. But perhaps he understood what Jack was offering as an alternative...
I honestly think so. I tend to believe most of his frustration does come from the dissolving of Earl's image by the presence of Jack. Ennis had been solidified in such an old, crippling image, that he must've found it difficult to trust leaving him now without consequence. I think there was fear in anything to do with the animation of his past. And fear, like about every other emotion, was something Ennis struggled to project - namely due to the dimness of never seeing them as options.
This said, Jack's love was driving him crazy but necessarily away from 9.
They make a brilliant couple, IMO.
^f^
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I honestly think so. I tend to believe most of his frustration does come from the dissolving of Earl's image by the presence of Jack. Ennis had been solidified in such an old, crippling image, that he must've found it difficult to trust leaving him now without consequence. I think there was fear in anything to do with the animation of his past. And fear, like about every other emotion, was something Ennis struggled to project - namely due to the dimness of never seeing them as options.
This said, Jack's love was driving him crazy but necessarily away from 9.
They make a brilliant couple, IMO.
^f^
He did indeed try to project his fears onto Jack. Witness the scene where Ennis asks Jack if he gets the fealing that people "know". Again, Ennis's questions have a double meaning -- he is asking Jack if he sometimes feels uncomfortable with who he is.
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He did indeed try to project his fears onto Jack. Witness the scene where Ennis asks Jack if he gets the fealing that people "know". Again, Ennis's questions have a double meaning -- he is asking Jack if he sometimes feels uncomfortable with who he is.
Yes. It is also something how Jake nonverbally answers with the shrugged gesture. And how he suggests Ennis should move away, maybe to Texas, I feel is his way of counteracting the question. Jack, always driven towards the bigger picture, was (sub)conciously always towing Ennis from his past by selfless and selfish means, IMO.
I think he was significantly becoming intolerant of such homophobia especially right there on Brokeback, their supposed sanctuary.
And as Jack turns and walks away, trying to ignore the rest, Ennis: Jack fu**in' Twist, got it all figured out..
Like you mentioned, I think his resentment starts to boil just as Jack's had begun to. I think these two were so identical in that they needed each other, specifically - Only, their fears were of different manifestations but incubated under the same star.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F000s4ex8&hash=99baa1fffe7a508b59cbfb6803e0d718d0ffbefa)
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Yes. It is also something how Jake nonverbally answers with the shrugged gesture. And how he suggests Ennis should move away, maybe to Texas, I feel is his way of counteracting the question. Jack, always driven towards the bigger picture, was (sub)conciously always towing Ennis from his past by selfless and selfish means, IMO.
I think he was significantly becoming intolerant of such homophobia especially right there on Brokeback, their supposed sanctuary.
And as Jack turns and walks away, trying to ignore the rest, Ennis: Jack f***in' Twist, got it all figured out..
Like you mentioned, I think his resentment starts to boil just as Jack's had begun to. I think these two were so identical in that they needed each other, specifically - Only, their fears were of different manifestations but incubated under the same star.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.livejournal.com%2Ffa_sharp%2Fpic%2F000s4ex8&hash=99baa1fffe7a508b59cbfb6803e0d718d0ffbefa)
Maybe you should get outa there...
One possible translation: Come with me. I take you as you are.
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Maybe you should get outa there...
One possible translation: Come with me. I take you as you are.
Most definitely! <^(
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" well try this one" ----Jack's POV. his summary of the relationship"
and I'll say it just once"--- You have your reasons but liisten up really good Ennis , I'm not going to repeat this and this is final. I have something to say and have been wanting to say it for a long time......I need you more than 3 or 4 times a year. I can't stand this roller-coaster ride no more . Thinkin bout quittin ya, but I can't. I never felt you wanted it as much as I did., now it's too late!
Jack has such a passion for their love. I greatly admire him for it.
Ennis: " Go ahead" -----explain yourself, explain Mexico.
"All them things I dont't know will get you killed if I come to know them", and I aint foolin."
---If I find out you've been bed-hopping and cheating around on me all this time, , I may get violent with ya. The thought of you with someone else.... %( %( %( I'm very jealous.,Your mine Jack ...only mine.
Also means Ennis saying: I love you and care for you so much and I'm afraid if your too careless, and I'm not there to protect you , you might get hurt or killed. I'm scared so please don't put me in the position of having to live without you like Earl and Rich. I've been faithful to you and I expect you to be too. It's safer for us that way. My takes.
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Also means Ennis saying: I love you and care for you so much and I'm afraid if your too careless, and I'm not there to protect you , you might get hurt or killed. I'm scared so please don't put me in the position of having to live without you like Earl and Rich. I've been faithful to you and I expect you to be too. It's safer for us that way. My takes.
These are nice points.
Too bad their ideas of being faithful were so hollowed by the empty relationships they had with the women in their lives, and with society. I understand Ennis' intentions to protect Jack, but without Ennis' graduation from his past, this notion is merely just that - a lost cause. Not that either had control of it. It's just that every single thing that happened between them was for a reason. Brokeback had it's reasons and, to be felt, they went down like tent spikes.
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Right. Their concepts of faithfulness to their wives is very different from the way they thought of each other.
I think their was so much more of an emotional bond there between the two of them. A solid connection. Wives or other women in their lives would never pose a direct threat to what they had after Ennis's divorce. They both compartmentalized both relatioships on this matter. IMO Niether was going to break up the relationship, to get seriously * involved* with a woman. Lureen and Cassie, Alma ( and possibly LaShawn..( I shudder to think..) were evidence of that. they all served a purpose in their lives, but to be in a consistent loving relationship with them? No, they reserved this for themselves though they suffered within it too in a different way.
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I think Ennis having discovered Jack's trip to Mexico before his death was a chance for Ennis to foresee a loss. It's unfortunate the first clues weren't as bloody direct as the shirts were bound to be.
On staying alive: Ennis had a fear disillusioning that which would keep Jack safe. In such the disillusion of fear, Ennis had possibly overlooked Jack's 'trip' for some insecure foregound to the past, rather than the only resource Jack knew from which to draw the essence of Ennis, this one and only thing that they'd come to utilize as means of expressing the unspoken love.
Although Ennis knew these sorts of things could lead to death anywhere else, he couldn't trust shacking up with Jack due to fear having pinpointed him from all directions; hearing the 'threat' of Jack with another man certainly rang loud in Ennis' ears, IMO - probaby with several notes. But reflexes had him in survival mode for his reasons, and the delivery of Jack's plea here was a little gawd damn less than satisfactory.
I think "I love you" had been reshashed so many times that Mother Nature herself was becoming insecure. :-\\
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For me there is a doble meaning in the scene where Ennis find the two shirts in Jacks closet, and in the scene where he opens his own closet with his own and Jacks shirts hanging on the door.
In Denmark we have an expression saying when a homosexual (gay and lesbian)is accepting his own sexuality and starting to show the society and family that he is a gay, "he is coming out of the closet".
In the scene where Ennis find Jack shirt its still in Jacks closet with Jacks shirt around his own, but Jacks closet is a sort of open closet. Thats showing me that Jack has accepted his own sexuality and startet to open toward society, but not quiet open since he would be in to much danger still.
In the scene in Ennis home where Ennis opens his closet door, we see the to shirts again, now with his own shirt around Jacks and with a pic of BBM next to the shirt.
Thats showing me that now Ennis has started to accept his own sexuality,his love and starting to open up to society(we see the world in a window next to the closet), not all yet since the shirts are still in the closet, but Jack is on his way.And that he accepted and understood what happened on BBM.He has opened his door and is starting to come out his closet.
Also first time when we see the to shirts with Ennis shirt inside Jacks tells me that Jack had Ennis in his heart all those years what ever happended between them and with Randall, it was Ennis Jack wanted and not Randall.
Now Jacks shirt is inside Ennis shirt and heart for the rest of Ennis life.
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" well try this one" ----Jack's POV. his summary of the relationship"
and I'll say it just once"--- You have your reasons but liisten up really good Ennis , I'm not going to repeat this and this is final. I have something to say and have been wanting to say it for a long time......I need you more than 3 or 4 times a year. I can't stand this roller-coaster ride no more . Thinkin bout quittin ya, but I can't. I never felt you wanted it as much as I did., now it's too late!
Jack has such a passion for their love. I greatly admire him for it.
Ennis: " Go ahead" -----explain yourself, explain Mexico.
"All them things I dont't know will get you killed if I come to know them", and I aint foolin."
---If I find out you've been bed-hopping and cheating around on me all this time, , I may get violent with ya. The thought of you with someone else.... %( %( %( I'm very jealous.,Your mine Jack ...only mine.
Also means Ennis saying: I love you and care for you so much and I'm afraid if your too careless, and I'm not there to protect you , you might get hurt or killed. I'm scared so please don't put me in the position of having to live without you like Earl and Rich. I've been faithful to you and I expect you to be too. It's safer for us that way. My takes.
It is interesting to note that in another older thread, a similar dual interpretation to this scene was also proposed. That the words "...would get you killed if I come to know them" could also mean that Jack would get himself killed for not being discreet.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned (if so, sorry). I watched it a few nights ago and "We ought to go to Mexico" stood out at me. When Jack says "We ought to go to Mexico" he's just saying we ought to go where it's okay for us to be together. It happens down there and there aren't men with tire irons waiting to hunt you down and kill you. Or at least that's how I saw it this particular viewing.
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I wonder about that too. Jack's brings up Mexico because he's doesn't to go to Brokeback in November when its' cold, but does he also bring it up because it's safer, and they could be more open? but then this leaves the door open for Ennis and the "Boy like you" comment, he wasn't entirely ignorant of what went on down there.
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Ennis wouldn't go to Mexico, because he already has a stereotype of what went on there. That's where gay men go and he isn't gay. "Mexico" has only one meaning for Ennis. He never moves far from his comfort zone, and that's the west, small towns, ranches, mountains. He isn't even interested in going to Texas - look at his reaction when Jack mentions it. I have a sort of feeling that Texas, or the his idea of it, is too big altogether for Ennis, whose horizons are so limited.
When he talks about walking round the coffee-pot looking for the handle, he's joking, but actually describing himself quite well - going round in circles getting nowhere, sticking with the familiar, doing only what he knows he can do.
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Totally agree with WW, Jack even bringing up Mexico where its warmer than Brokeback in November, showed us Ennis sure knew what went on in Mexico, and more than sun and warm temps.
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Can't for the life of me see why Jack let Ennis get away with this coffee pot handle excuse. Jack had to be frusrated at Ennis's paranoia in Riverton, Wy. He could never live in peace with Ennis there. But they had 49 other states ( and Mexico )to choose from. Ennis need'nt be limited to Riverton. Jack suggesing Texas was too obvious IMO, it gave Ennis too many reasons to refuse. What if Jack had suggested Denver? What would be Ennis's excuse then? What better time to stop playing with the coffee pot and move some where else with a more open-minded population?
J
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I don't know if this has been mentioned (if so, sorry). I watched it a few nights ago and "We ought to go to Mexico" stood out at me. When Jack says "We ought to go to Mexico" he's just saying we ought to go where it's okay for us to be together. It happens down there and there aren't men with tire irons waiting to hunt you down and kill you. Or at least that's how I saw it this particular viewing.
I initially thought it was rather odd that Jack would bring up the cold at this point -- it seemed that he was initially using this as a way of masking his disappointment at not being able to meet in the summer. But I had wondered whether there was a double meaning behind this, and I think you are right LJN, in pointing out the above message underneath the discussion on Mexico.
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When he talks about walking round the coffee-pot looking for the handle, he's joking, but actually describing himself quite well - going round in circles getting nowhere, sticking with the familiar, doing only what he knows he can do.
This too is a double meaning. And quite true, I should add.
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Can't for the life of me see why Jack let Ennis get away with this coffee pot handle excuse. Jack had to be frusrated at Ennis's paranoia in Riverton, Wy. He could never live in peace with Ennis there. But they had 49 other states ( and Mexico )to choose from. Ennis need'nt be limited to Riverton. Jack suggesing Texas was too obvious IMO, it gave Ennis too many reasons to refuse. What if Jack had suggested Denver? What would be Ennis's excuse then? What better time to stop playing with the coffee pot and move some where else with a more open-minded population?
J
Very good point, aintfoolin. The excuse is actually very typical of Ennis -- we glimpse the same thing during the conversation about getting a new job with the power company. I guess the underlying message here is that he didn't want to change -- didn't want to make any more concessions beyond meeting upm in the mountains every so often.
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Your right Tpe, The man did not deal well with change. Perhaps a fear of the unknown was at the core. What Jack was asking were not baby steps for Ennis , but huge leaps that proved too scary to get past for him. Although I feel at times that he was not properly challenged.
It occured to me while watching the scene in which The shirts and postcard are hanging inside Ennis's closet door and he straightens/buttons Jack's collar and does the same with the postcard. Perhaps this is tied in with him with " tent don't look right" and he straightens that too. Jack says " leave it be , I anit goin nowhere" Ennis maybe thinking that Jack has never really gone anywhere except his closet. Even though Jack is not there physically alive, his spirit remains alive and well in Ennis's closet, and that's real enough for Ennis.
Jack was'nt about strict order and total perfection... Ennis was. Probably would tell Ennis to let the postcard be . So what if it's crooked, big deal "it aint goin nowhere" :*( :*(. :c) He was too cool and Ennis knew it.
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It occured to me while watching the scene in which The shirts and postcard are hanging inside Ennis's closet door and he straightens/buttons Jack's collar and does the same with the postcard. Perhaps this is tied in with him with " tent don't look right" and he straightens that too. Jack says " leave it be , I anit goin nowhere" Ennis maybe thinking that Jack has never really gone anywhere except his closet. Even though Jack is not there physically alive, his spirit remains alive and well in Ennis's closet, and that's real enough for Ennis.
Jack was'nt about strict order and total perfection... Ennis was. Probably would tell Ennis to let the postcard be . So what if it's crooked, big deal "it aint goin nowhere" :*( :*(. :c) He was too cool and Ennis knew it.
How interesting! I must admit that it somehow seems to resonate with Ennis's fussiness over the tent -- the shirts have to look right! :\'(
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Great observation aintfoolin'. Ennis fussing making things just so for Jack :\'(
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These posts are wonderful! About Jack bringing up Mexico (I always saw it as Jack hoping maybe Ennis would think he meant Mexico as where's it's warm, but he also meant where they could be more free) and about Ennis's fussiness over making things all in order and straight.
This continues to intrigue me, finding new things all the time.
kathy
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An additional detail on Ennis's fussiness in the last scene: he adjusts the postcard to make it look right. Again, he just wanted everything to be as they should.
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. . . Ennis's . . . just wanted everything to be as they should.
Ennis’s need to have things right – may be OT here, but I wonder how much of this need stems from having lost his parents, the things a child holds most dear, at a young age? Did he grow up having the feeling that if THEY had just been more careful, had paid more attention, that they would not have died in an accident of their own cause? How much does this color his whole life and his view personal risk? e.g. – a life with Jack.
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Ennis’s need to have things right – may be OT here, but I wonder how much of this need stems from having lost his parents, the things a child holds most dear, at a young age? Did he grow up having the feeling that if THEY had just been more careful, had paid more attention, that they would not have died in an accident of their own cause? How much does this color his whole life and his view of personal risk? e.g. – a life with Jack.
So true. Undoubtedly he held on tight to what little he had, since he had had so little in his earlier years after parents were gone. But somehow this didn't translate to holding on to Jack. Too unknown and too risky.
kathy
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These posts are wonderful! About Jack bringing up Mexico (I always saw it as Jack hoping maybe Ennis would think he meant Mexico as where's it's warm, but he also meant where they could be more free) and about Ennis's fussiness over making things all in order and straight.
This continues to intrigue me, finding new things all the time.
kathy
I feel this too. Texas was warm, so is Mexico. Jack saw Mexico as a place where they could be more free in a more relaxed envirement. Jack no doubt had rodeo injuries ie..( he got out while he could still walk) and the warm weather perhaps helped this.
Sleeping on the ground in cold, damp mountain air in Wy. could not have been comfortable as he got older.
Jackster, your right.
Ennis's meticulous nature no doubt had to do with experiencing accidental death of parents but also the death of Earl at a very young age. These two incidents I feel did color his view of personal risks Caused him not to tempt fate if you will, with Jack or his work ethic while married to Alma. Once he found a sure thing, he did'nt venture much from it. Through the years , his style of dress spoke volumes about this . ( blue and white shirts were his favs as we saw several of them in his closets , boots and jeans and he wore them well) ...but,This could be a good or bad personality trait , Good in its stability, bad in its stubborness when others close to him suffer because of it. Perhaps a balance was in order here.as it was on BBM. There, it had it's advantages Having Jack's meals ready on time, worked (and played) well with Jack as a co-worker and partnership, fixing the tent etc.., providing for Jack's needs ,and dessires. and with Alma, preparing for marrage by earning money that summer for a place to live, but had disadvantages when Ennis did'nt adjust to the important real changes and challenges in his life.
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Ennis’s need to have things right – may be OT here, but I wonder how much of this need stems from having lost his parents, the things a child holds most dear, at a young age? Did he grow up having the feeling that if THEY had just been more careful, had paid more attention, that they would not have died in an accident of their own cause? How much does this color his whole life and his view personal risk? e.g. – a life with Jack.
We can extract a double meaning in support of this from Ennis's own reply to Jack at the beginning of their time together: "They run themselves off". I think Ennis did grow up feeling somthing like what you say here.
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These posts are wonderful! About Jack bringing up Mexico (I always saw it as Jack hoping maybe Ennis would think he meant Mexico as where's it's warm, but he also meant where they could be more free) and about Ennis's fussiness over making things all in order and straight.
This continues to intrigue me, finding new things all the time.
kathy
Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!
I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight', what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them. There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.
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Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!
I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight', what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them. There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.
liketheyallknow, welcome to the forum. And no, you certainly didn't mess up. I had also read a possible significance of the parents missing a curve, but you say it here beautifully!
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Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!
I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight', what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them. There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.
Welcome, welcome, LTAK. This is fascinating, about Ennis wanting to be "straight," yet going straight is what killed his parents! Intense. This film has so many layers.
Probably this is more in the symbolism thread (sorry, can't direct you there) but fits well in what we've been talking about here.
I look forward to seeing you in more of these discussion threads, and everywhere else.
kathy
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Well, in a sense, there is both symbol and double meaning in what liketheyallknow had said. As I said, I somehow had a similar vague feeling in the back of my mind about this...
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Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!
I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight', what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them. There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.
#$# Beautiful post, liketheyallknow. :) This is an excellent example of the symbolism and double meanings that layer all of BBM, thank you!
Welcome, welcome, LTAK. This is fascinating, about Ennis wanting to be "straight," yet going straight is what killed his parents! Intense. kathy
Makes for another fascinating discussion.
I guess Jack was Ennis' curve in the road; he was only able to handle the turn for so long before he couldn't hold traction anymore.
Would you consider Ennis to be Jack's curve in the road as well? What direction would his life had gone, if he hadn't given his heart away permanently to a repressed and stubborn ranch hand in '63? I think we might agree, regardless, that Jack was more than willing to take that curve just as it was, if Ennis hadn't fought him on it.
The tragedy is that in the end Jack is the one who died when they couldn't navigate the turns together.
All these months later I'm still learning new things from ej member's discussions. ^f^ No wonder BBM stays alive in our hearts and minds.
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Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."
No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.
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Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."
No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.
Another alternative double meaning: "What should I do to get you, Ennis del Mar?" We of course know that there was nothing she could do.
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Welcome, welcome, LTAK. This is fascinating, about Ennis wanting to be "straight," yet going straight is what killed his parents! Intense. This film has so many layers.
Probably this is more in the symbolism thread (sorry, can't direct you there) but fits well in what we've been talking about here.
I look forward to seeing you in more of these discussion threads, and everywhere else.
kathy
Thanks for the welcome Kathy ! This film sure makes you think on several levels simultaneously. Look forward to discussing more.
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#$# Beautiful post, liketheyallknow. :) This is an excellent example of the symbolism and double meanings that layer all of BBM, thank you!
Makes for another fascinating discussion.
I guess Jack was Ennis' curve in the road; he was only able to handle the turn for so long before he couldn't hold traction anymore.
Would you consider Ennis to be Jack's curve in the road as well? What direction would his life had gone, if he hadn't given his heart away permanently to a repressed and stubborn ranch hand in '63? I think we might agree, regardless, that Jack was more than willing to take that curve just as it was, if Ennis hadn't fought him on it.
The tragedy is that in the end Jack is the one who died when they couldn't navigate the turns together.
All these months later I'm still learning new things from ej member's discussions. ^f^ No wonder BBM stays alive in our hearts and minds.
Good question, MississaugaRed. I think Jack did not have a pre-planned stereotypical future in mind, as Ennis did. (Although another point is that Ennis had not consciously thought his future through - he was just following in-grained tradition). So Jack was better able to take life's events, and people, as he found them rather than seeing them as interfering with a pre-determined vision of his future. He was therefore better equipped for dealing with curves in the road - less likely to be surprised than Ennis, and more likely to grasp opportunities. Put another way, unlike Ennis, I don't think Jack had a straight path planned from which to be deflected in terms of direction. Perhaps his only plan was to find love, in whatever form. Ennis had not consciously hoped for an intimate relationship with another man, Jack probably had. Was Ennis the curve in Jacks road? Ennis is a sudden and profound event that Jack had not expected, but probably had hoped for. So perhaps it was just the intensity of his feelings for Ennis that threw Jack, and the fact that he'd found deep love so young.
All in my opinion!
you say: The tragedy is that in the end Jack is the one who died when they couldn't navigate the turns together.
How true and how sad. If Ennis could have broadened his field of view, even a little, they might have made it.
So sad.
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Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."
No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.
Yes Jack had him, Cassie clearly never would (Alma jnr knew this judging by her facial expression in the bar when Ennis and Cassie where dancing). Other meanings (maybe not all double meanings): Cassie didn't get Ennis in lots of ways - she made assumptions about Ennis, she never really knew him, she never understood him (only one person did). 'I don't get you' says a lot about Cassie and the culture they lived in. A pretty and lively young woman - she must have thought she could attract any man. Perhaps Cassie was also saying, she 'didn't get herself '- why hadn't her charms worked? 'I don't get you' = her idea of normal rules doesn't seem to be working here.
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Cassie--"I don't get you Ennis Del Mar."
No she did'nt *get him* , Jack already had him.
Excellent. Exactly so.
kathy
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Yes Jack had him, Cassie clearly never would (Alma jnr knew this judging by her facial expression in the bar when Ennis and Cassie where dancing). Other meanings (maybe not all double meanings): Cassie didn't get Ennis in lots of ways - she made assumptions about Ennis, she never really knew him, she never understood him (only one person did). 'I don't get you' says a lot about Cassie and the culture they lived in. A pretty and lively young woman - she must have thought she could attract any man. Perhaps Cassie was also saying, she 'didn't get herself '- why hadn't her charms worked? 'I don't get you' = her idea of normal rules doesn't seem to be working here.
Cassie unbeknown to her was not dealing with your average hetero cowboy here. Ennis had secrets. The way he dumped her was not flattering, but he accomplished what he set out to do, effectively putting her off the scent. He was never interested in long-term goals with her, but could'nt tell her why. In any case she got the message.
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Yes aintfoolin, Ennis's relationship with Cassie was a sham, a lie, but she told him a truth ' Girls don't fall in love with fun'. What double and deeper meanings are there to this line? Ennis was left thinking hard about what Cassie said. Was he finally beginnng to realises that he, Ennis, and the way he lived his life, had an impact on other people? - both Jack as he was sitting there eating his apple pie, and Cassie who he'd also upset. Did a light come in Ennis's head when she said that line? What did he think she meant? Sadly it was already too late for him to put any new-found self awareness to good use in his relationship with Jack.
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Ennis had an honest, unspoiled ,and gentle response to her agressiveness. ( a footrub?) Any other man would be flatterd to have this beauty approach them in this way. She had to coax him to stay , coax him to the dancefloor, and later found that Ennis did'nt talk much. But she could work with this. Cassie was the one , as with Jack who had to coax Ennis out of his shell.
During this courtship I think Ennis let Cassie lead. She fell in love with him eventually. "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is in response to Ennis saying " I probably was'nt no fun anyway" Ennis himself really was'nt having much fun with her .
She was not his kind of fun, Jack was. Like Jack, she had gotten past the fun stage. She was seriously in love with him and was looking at long-term possiblities with him., But Ennis never had any intentions of getting any closer to her than he already had. Been there, done that, and did'nt want it again. How could he ever explain to Cassie that he wanted a man instead of her. This relationship was doomed from the start,imo just like his other experience with a woman after meeting Jack,...Alma. He gave up a marriage and a potential marriage to these women, but continued to see Jack. That's very telling. MO
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Ennis had an honest, unspoiled ,and gentle response to her agressiveness. ( a footrub?) Any other man would be flatterd to have this beauty approach them in this way. She had to coax him to stay , coax him to the dancefloor, and later found that Ennis did'nt talk much. But she could work with this. Cassie was the one , as with Jack who had to coax Ennis out of his shell.
During this courtship I think Ennis let Cassie lead. She fell in love with him eventually. "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is in response to Ennis saying " I probably was'nt no fun anyway" Ennis himself really was'nt having much fun with her .
She was not his kind of fun, Jack was. Like Jack, she had gotten past the fun stage. She was seriously in love with him and was looking at long-term possiblities with him., But Ennis never had any intentions of getting any closer to her than he already had. Been there, done that, and did'nt want it again. How could he ever explain to Cassie that he wanted a man instead of her. This relationship was doomed from the start,imo just like his other experience with a woman after meeting Jack,...Alma. He gave up a marriage and a potential marriage to these women, but continued to see Jack. That's very telling. MO
Oh, I totally agree with you. Great post.
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Ennis had an honest, unspoiled ,and gentle response to her agressiveness. ( a footrub?) Any other man would be flatterd to have this beauty approach them in this way. She had to coax him to stay , coax him to the dancefloor, and later found that Ennis did'nt talk much. But she could work with this. Cassie was the one , as with Jack who had to coax Ennis out of his shell.
I like this viewpoint - Ennis was a really nice guy the way he responded, plus I'd never thought of Cassie as aggressive, more persistant, but I suppose her approach to Ennis was straight for the kill, compared to Jack's patient understanding approach.
During this courtship I think Ennis let Cassie lead. She fell in love with him eventually. "Girls don't fall in love with fun" is in response to Ennis saying " I probably was'nt no fun anyway" Ennis himself really was'nt having much fun with her .
She was not his kind of fun, Jack was. Like Jack, she had gotten past the fun stage. She was seriously in love with him and was looking at long-term possiblities with him.,
Thanks for shining some light on this aintfoolin. So Ennis was thinking he had to be fun for Cassie (too much effort) not so much effort being with Jack - could be himself - kind of.
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"Was probably no fun anyway, was I?" is on the surface just Ennis describing himself - not a very sociable guy, not the life and soul of the party, not frivolous. It's Alma who suggests taking Jack out - the thought never crosses Ennis's mind. It's Alma who wonders why Jack didn;t come in for a coffee, alma who wants to go to the church social, Cassie who wants to dance.....So to me it also says that he considers that women have to be amused, entertained, are in some ways less serious than men. It never occurs to him that Jack doesn't care whether or not he's fun to be with, because it's not an issue. Speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship, IMO.
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"Was probably no fun anyway, was I?" is on the surface just Ennis describing himself - not a very sociable guy, not the life and soul of the party, not frivolous. It's Alma who suggests taking Jack out - the thought never crosses Ennis's mind. It's Alma who wonders why Jack didn;t come in for a coffee, alma who wants to go to the church social, Cassie who wants to dance.....So to me it also says that he considers that women have to be amused, entertained, are in some ways less serious than men. It never occurs to him that Jack doesn't care whether or not he's fun to be with, because it's not an issue. Speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship, IMO.
I do think that the second meaning what what got Cassie to reply "Girls don't fall in love with fun." Thanks WW. That was good.
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"Was probably no fun anyway, was I?" is on the surface just Ennis describing himself - not a very sociable guy, not the life and soul of the party, not frivolous. It's Alma who suggests taking Jack out - the thought never crosses Ennis's mind. It's Alma who wonders why Jack didn;t come in for a coffee, alma who wants to go to the church social, Cassie who wants to dance.....So to me it also says that he considers that women have to be amused, entertained, are in some ways less serious than men. It never occurs to him that Jack doesn't care whether or not he's fun to be with, because it's not an issue. Speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship, IMO.
The irony is, Ennis could be fun - with Jack, especially in the early days. Those lovely touches on BB - the harmonica quips, and after the reunion by the campfire. ENnis doesn't see him himself as fun in the conventional way perhaps. How little we know ourselves. One of the saddest messages from the film is the suppression of Ennis's warm, soft side.
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One scene has irked me and may have a double meaning but I have not been able to figure it out yet and that is when Aguirre shows up unexpectedly after spying on Jack and Ennis the morning after SNIT. Jack seems very suspicious of Aguirre when he says " aint much I can do about it up here", . ( regarding his sick uncle) Aguirre says " Aint much you can do about it down there either" , Unless you can cure pnuemonia" then they both stare at Ennis. Does anyone have a clue here about what Aguirre is really saying ? I get the feeling of some hidden meaning. Maybe it has something to do with seeing Jack and Ennis outside, in the cold, but obviously heating things up ;)?
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One scene has irked me and may have a double meaning but I have not been able to figure it out yet and that is when Aguirre shows up unexpectedly after spying on Jack and Ennis the morning after SNIT. Jack seems very suspicious of Aguirre when he says " aint much I can do about it up here", . ( regarding his sick uncle) Aguirre says " Aint much you can do about it down there either" , Unless you can cure pnuemonia" then they both stare at Ennis. Does anyone have a clue here about what Aguirre is really saying ? I get the feeling of some hidden meaning. Maybe it has something to do with seeing Jack and Ennis outside, in the cold, but obviously heating things up ;)?
When Aguirre pulls out those big old binoculars, That was a classic "Gotcha" moment, Jack must have thought "Oh sh@t he saw us". Jack must have known that he and Ennis got caught out there.
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I have initially been puzzled also about this scene. I think manhattangirl and I share the same feeling that when Aguirre looks up to where Ennis was with his binoculars, he was also informing Jack that he had been watching them. I had wondered though whether his comments held any additional meaning...
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On the surface at least the comment about not being able to do anything about it seems to be just Aguirre telling Jack how powerless ( and by implication worthless) he is.
But to me the "ain't much you can do about it" also sums up a great truth about the relationship between J and E. There really isn't anything they can do about it.
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On the surface at least the comment about not being able to do anything about it seems to be just Aguirre telling Jack how powerless ( and by implication worthless) he is.
But to me the "ain't much you can do about it" also sums up a great truth about the relationship between J and E. There really isn't anything they can do about it.
That make sense.
They are being watched up in the mountain and they are being watched again down there.
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Thanks guys, WW Tpe and MG, once again I am enlightened by your thoughts here, it's just something that has puzzled me every time I watched the film.
What about this one:
Ennis at Thanksgiving: grabs Alma's arm and says " You don't know nothin about it Alma" Oh but she did know something about it, Ennis just wished she did'nt. He was gonna " make her eat the f-ckin floor" He was not trying to hear what he knew she knew. What ticked Ennis off the most? that she knew? or that she was calling Jack "nasty names? I love protective , jealous, Ennis. ;)
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On the surface at least the comment about not being able to do anything about it seems to be just Aguirre telling Jack how powerless ( and by implication worthless) he is.
But to me the "ain't much you can do about it" also sums up a great truth about the relationship between J and E. There really isn't anything they can do about it.
Yes, exactly, Aguirre wanted to put Jack in his place, and say "you are in the hollow of my hand."
And I like your double meaning on the phrase "ain't much you can do about it": it is quite true.
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Thanks guys, WW Tpe and MG, once again I am enlightened by your thoughts here, it's just something that has puzzled me every time I watched the film.
What about this one:
Ennis at Thanksgiving: grabs Alma's arm and says " You don't know nothin about it Alma" Oh but she did know something about it, Ennis just wished she did'nt. He was gonna " make her eat the f-ckin floor" He was not trying to hear what he knew she knew. What ticked Ennis off the most? that she knew? or that she was calling Jack "nasty names? I love protective , jealous, Ennis. ;)
I had always assumed that by saying " You don't know nothin about it Alma", Ennis was saying 2 things: (1) that she didn't know and understand the bond between him and Jack, and (2) Ennis was telling Alma to back off and stay within the unspoken boundaries that have defined their relationship ever since the reunion scene. Ennis knew that Alma knew -- he was too careless. But he had always assumed that Alma would keep quiet, because it suited both their interests. Revealing such a thing to the rest of society would certainly be bad for them both as well as for the children. They would be tainted, so to speak. That Alma threatened to violate this must have surprised and angered Ennis. But even with this, I am sure that Ennis felt deeply hurt by Alma's hostility to Jack. What Ennis said pretty much tells Alma that there was a part of Ennis she never understood and never reached -- and that part was solely Jack's.
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It's also maybe Ennis clinging deperately to what he wants to believe - that Alma has no idea of the nature of his relationship with
Jack. As long as it's not spoken about, not acknowledged by anyone, when Jack isn't there he can deny even to himself that he's "queer". but if Alma, who knows him as well as anyone apart from Jack, puts it into words, the unsayable will have been said and will be out in the open. I don't think he'd be afraid of her telling Monroe or anyone else - the stigma would affect her too - I think he's much more afraid of the idea of hearing the words that describe his realtionship with Jack being said aloud.
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I have initially been puzzled also about this scene. I think manhattangirl and I share the same feeling that when Aguirre looks up to where Ennis was with his binoculars, he was also informing Jack that he had been watching them. I had wondered though whether his comments held any additional meaning...
Yes this seems to explain alot and perhaps to expand on it , during the later scene Jack says " Aguirre came back, says to" bring em down" . Well he was referring to the sheep, but could also be taken as Aguirre bringing whatever was happening up there beween the 2 dueces was going to be "brought down" too. " the snow barely stuck an hour Ennis said. I wonder if there was really a worse storm coming at all or was it Aguirre feeling he had to end this early because of what he saw. It sure brought Ennis down, taking out his emotions about it on Jack.
Forever would have been too soon as far as Ennis was concerned. The worse storm was brewing within him being cut off unexpectedly from his Jack like this. This scared Ennis more than any snow or lightening could , trying to prolong the whole thing by taking off to sit alone on the hill. Finally Jack sees him, lassos him saying " Time to get going cowboy" This finality seemed to push Ennis over the edge imo. He had to leave the mountain ? &*& After this experience? %(He was'nt ready to give Jack up yet. MO.
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It's also maybe Ennis clinging deperately to what he wants to believe - that Alma has no idea of the nature of his relationship with
Jack. As long as it's not spoken about, not acknowledged by anyone, when Jack isn't there he can deny even to himself that he's "queer". but if Alma, who knows him as well as anyone apart from Jack, puts it into words, the unsayable will have been said and will be out in the open. I don't think he'd be afraid of her telling Monroe or anyone else - the stigma would affect her too - I think he's much more afraid of the idea of hearing the words that describe his realtionship with Jack being said aloud.
I think this is also very probable. He didn't want it verbalized -- he must have felt it more this way. There was no denying it when it is said by a third party.
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Yes this seems to explain alot and perhaps to expand on it , during the later scene Jack says " Aguirre came back, says to" bring em down" . Well he was referring to the sheep, but could also be taken as Aguirre bringing whatever was happening up there beween the 2 dueces was going to be "brought down" too. " the snow barely stuck an hour Ennis said. I wonder if there was really a worse storm coming at all or was it Aguirre feeling he had to end this early because of what he saw. It sure brought Ennis down, taking out his emotions about it on Jack.
Forever would have been too soon as far as Ennis was concerned. The worse storm was brewing within him being cut off unexpectedly from his Jack like this. This scared Ennis more than any snow or lightening could , trying to prolong the whole thing by taking off to sit alone on the hill. Finally Jack sees him, lassos him saying " Time to get going cowboy" This finality seemed to push Ennis over the edge imo. He had to leave the mountain ? &*& After this experience? %(He was'nt ready to give Jack up yet. MO.
I admit that I had never thought of it this way, although it did enter my mind many times that part of the reason why Aguirre was cutting their time in BBM short was to put an end to the dalliance that he thought interfered with their doing the job well.
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I jsut mentioned this double meaning in another htread, and I am not sure if this had already been mention (I don't think it has been mentioned before).
When Jack asks Ennis if he was doing this again next summer, I think coded in the question was the more importatnt question to Jack: do you want to see me again. It would seem by Ennis's anser that the response to the pertinent question was "No".
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Yes, Jack is clearly implying that if Ennis was going to be there, he would, or could, be there too. As soon as Ennis mentions marrying Alma - why shoud that prevent his going back to work on the mountain if he hadn't found permanent employment? - Jack clearly reads that as saying that he wants to close off this chapter in his life.He does try, by saying that he'll be back if the army doesn't get him, to tell Ennis where he'll be next year. Ennis's response, "See you around" seems to me the equivalent of "We must do lunch sometime" or "I'll give you a call" ie a polite but meaningless form of words. This is why, IMO, Jack doesn't offer him a lift and drives off in tears.
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WW and tpe,
I had always, from the first time I saw the film, interpreted Jack's question this way:"Will/can we see each other again?" The fleetingly brief, pleading look he give Ennis, followed by the lowering of his head, suggests he is crushed by Ennis's apparent brushoff. WW I think you're right on target with your take on this, although I had never made the connection with his dejection being the reason he doesn't offer Ennis a ride.
Very interesting... :s)
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proulxfan, this is beautifully said, and so sad. That look, the lowering of his head. He was bravely trying to ask Ennis if they could continue this...and then was so crushed.
kathy
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Great posts. I always took that as Jack feeling Ennis out without directly asking him as well. That little eyebrow raise and then a little later the change of espression when he says "I might be back....". It never occured to me that was why Jack didn't offer him a ride though.
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I got on a train once and let it pull out of the station - a few hundred yards down the line I knew I'd done the wrong thing, but it was too late to go back. As I'd got on I'd been in too much turmoil to think clearly; that's the state I think Jack's in as he drives away. I chose one course of action, as Jack does " and that has made all the difference".
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These are all wonderful posts indeed ,if I may offer my two cents, Jack did give Ennis a clue saying that he was going to LF with his folks to help out during the winter. interpreted to me as "I'm not going to leave Wyoming right away. If you want to "see me around", I won't be that far. Perhaps Jack felt Ennis needed a little time and space, had hope that Ennis would change his mind and show up on the doorstep of his LF home after all. But you are all correct in saying that Jack was crushed, devastasted, and the tears were already forming. Jack loved Ennis so much that he left every ave open for Ennis to change his mind.
There were long pauses where Ennis stared at Jack having that hurt in Jack's eyes seared into his conciousness. If only Jack had returned a few minutes later, he would have seen how Ennis really felt about them parting. In regards to why he did'nt offer him a ride? Perhaps Jack was so caught up in the moment that he simply forgot. Maybe later on down the road he slaps his forehead %&)and says "Sh-t, I did'nt even offer him a ride! Its possible.
On another note:... I am reluctant to say this but in this scene while Ennis is kneeling and crying at the wall, look up at the clouds. Am I crazy or do I really see an eye? or two eyes looking down on Ennis? They are formed in the cloud cover.. I promise to see a shrink if no one else sees this. Am I nuts or is this more genius from Ang Lee?.....I think I need a drink. Check it out and let me know.Please.
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I got on a train once and let it pull out of the station - a few hundred yards down the line I knew I'd done the wrong thing, but it was too late to go back. As I'd got on I'd been in too much turmoil to think clearly; that's the state I think Jack's in as he drives away. I chose one course of action, as Jack does " and that has made all the difference".
That is so right, WW. (And I really feel your story...) We have to remember E and J -- and everyone -- are not always in full control of their faculties. Definitely not these young men in this very unsettling situation -- how to part after what they'd just had. You were "in too much turmoil to think clearly" and I would certainly say it was the same with both Ennis and Jack.
kathy
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On another note:... I am reluctant to say this but in this scene while Ennis is kneeling and crying at the wall, look up at the clouds. Am I crazy or do I really see an eye? or two eyes looking down on Ennis? They are formed in the cloud cover.. I promise to see a shrink if no one else sees this. Am I nuts or is this more genius from Ang Lee?.....I think I need a drink. Check it out and let me know.Please.
Hmm I never noticed that but I will check it out. :) I love finding new things.
I agree- Jack gave several clues- going up to see his daddy, I might be back but Ennis just said "see ya around then" so I can see why offering him a ride was not at the forefront of his mind.
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WW and tpe,
I had always, from the first time I saw the film, interpreted Jack's question this way:"Will/can we see each other again?" The fleetingly brief, pleading look he give Ennis, followed by the lowering of his head, suggests he is crushed by Ennis's apparent brushoff. WW I think you're right on target with your take on this, although I had never made the connection with his dejection being the reason he doesn't offer Ennis a ride.
Very interesting... :s)
Thanks proulxfan. It must have been this way, because Jack must have remembered what Ennis told him: that he was marrying Alma that November. So Ennis must have understood whay Jack was asking the question anew.
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Hmm I never noticed that but I will check it out. :) I love finding new things.
I agree- Jack gave several clues- going up to see his daddy, I might be back but Ennis just said "see ya around then" so I can see why offering him a ride was not at the forefront of his mind.
LJN, thanks for getting back to me on this. I'm glad you saw what I meant. I will now happily put away my check, reserved for treatment. ;D On the other hand , with what RL is throwing at me lately, maybe I'll keep it handily nearby! :iThe one on the left appears to be Ennis's, the one on the right definitly Jack's. It's so weird aint it? :t)
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Hi my first post so hope I don't mess it up!
I'm fascinated by the subtle extra dimensions in the film provided by double meanings and symbolism . Not sure whether it is a double meaning or symbolism (I believe there is a thread for this - where is it?) therefore OT, but it struck me when reading the posts about Ennis's tendency to want everything 'straight', what about the fate of his parents, who missed one curve in the road in 43 miles - they kept going straight when there was a change in direction needed and look what happened to them. There is surely a symbolic message here? Pity Ennis couldn't see it.
I really like your post. You said it very beautifully. I haven't heard of this one yet, but it definately seem like it symbolizes those who can not change. It's like you have to adapt changes and if you can't, you'll die off.
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I was in bed last night trying to fall asleep and I heard Jack in my head " Why is it we're alway out in the firggin' cold?" So I started to think that maybe that could mean Why aren't we accepted? Why do we have to hide who we are? Why are we always on the outside looking in?
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I was in bed last night trying to fall asleep and I heard Jack in my head " Why is it we're alway out in the firggin' cold?" So I started to think that maybe that could mean Why aren't we accepted? Why do we have to hide who we are? Why are we always on the outside looking in?
Yes, and Jack wants to be is some where warm.
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I was in bed last night trying to fall asleep and I heard Jack in my head " Why is it we're alway out in the firggin' cold?" So I started to think that maybe that could mean Why aren't we accepted? Why do we have to hide who we are? Why are we always on the outside looking in?
Excellent, LJN! I also had a sense that there was something odd about why Jack lapsed into this topic at that moment in the movie. I had a feeling that there must have been some significance to it, and I somehow feel at home with what you say here.
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"Left out in the cold" means excluded by the majority, doesn't it? As they think they would be if they were known to be what they are.
And warmth symbolises home, hearth, family, comfort, acceptance - all the things they never find together.
Their love for each other is surely " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" of their separations, but it has to stretch a long way.
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"Left out in the cold" means excluded by the majority, doesn't it? As they think they would be if they were known to be what they are.
And warmth symbolises home, hearth, family, comfort, acceptance - all the things they never find together.
Their love for each other is surely " something to hold against the heart during the long cold" of their separations, but it has to stretch a long way.
You say it very well here WW. They were without a hearth. An allusion to the loss of Jack's dream, perhaps?
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I think Jack was saying ' Why are we always out in the middle of nowhere in the mountains where it's cold" It goes to his state of mind where both stood in the relationship. He had moved on * warmer climates* and Ennis was still stuck on the cold mountain. Inclusion is what Jack wanted, but he wanted Ennis with him in a more inclusive enviroment. A more relaxing place. Sadly they never found that * warm place* together, in the relationship or in the context of local. In either case, Ennis refused to budge. My thought.
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Indeed, these are all very wonderful posts.
Back in Seattle gathering as we were watching BBM on big projected wall, I noticed for the first time the brand of the tractor which Jack was doing a demo. It is "Versatile." It is not BBM lines but I thought it was interesting.
The word "versatile" is widely used among gay. I don't know if it is just a coincidence. :s)
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Indeed, these are all very wonderful posts.
Back in Seattle gathering as we were watching BBM on big projected wall, I noticed for the first time the brand of the tractor which Jack was doing a demo. It is "Versatile." It is not BBM lines but I thought it was interesting.
The word "versatile" is widely used among gay. I don't know if it is just a coincidence. :s)
Thanks Ethan. I had wondered about this myself. I do have a sense that it was intentional -- it certainly brought to my mind a double meaning.
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" That's not the point, We both oughta be in this camp"
I'm lonely up there at night with the sheep, your lonely down here with the camp," " Aguirre's rules are a load of crap." " We should tend the sheep and the camp TOGETHER."
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That's how I always took that line aintfoolin. Jack just wanted some more time with Ennis.
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That's how I always took that line aintfoolin. Jack just wanted some more time with Ennis.
Same here. That was exactly how I read it...
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I suppose this is the suitable thread for what I mean, or if this has been said before for someone else,if so, ~):Specially during their stage in BBM,Ennis is wearing light brown or white clothings mainly,while Jack wears on his part clothings in blue,as the case of the shirts.It´s as if the first was with his feet on the ground and the second more volatile,with a free spirit like the wind;maybe Ennis was from some Zodiac sign of Earth and Jack surely of Air,such as Capricorn and Aquarius.Also speaking about clothes,in the reunion secene Jack is wearing a red shirt;red is the colour of passion and love.But it can also symbolise temptation, as he meant to Ennis in order to cheat his wife in a religious or moral sense.
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I suppose this is the suitable thread for what I mean, or if this has been said before for someone else,if so, ~):Specially during their stage in BBM,Ennis is wearing light brown or white clothings mainly,while Jack wears on his part clothings in blue,as the case of the shirts.It´s as if the first was with his feet on the ground and the second more volatile,with a free spirit like the wind;maybe Ennis was from some Zodiac sign of Earth and Jack surely of Air,such as Capricorn and Aquarius.Also speaking about clothes,in the reunion secene Jack is wearing a red shirt;red is the colour of passion and love.But it can also symbolise temptation, as he meant to Ennis in order to cheat his wife in a religious or moral sense.
Good that you broght this us, myprivatejack. In fact, I think there is an old thread devoted to this particular topic, although this certainly belongs to this thread for double meanings.
I also felt that the lighter colors used for Ennis denoted a sort of innocence or lack of experience, whereas Jack's dark robes seem to bring out the mystery and shadowy elements in the character.
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I agree with you in that Ennis´white or light colour shirts can mean innocence or lack of experience,the same than lines for me symbolises a lineal,straight (in mental sense,I mean...)character.What I don´t see so clear is that dark colours in Jack´s clothes mean a misterious and shadowy character;precisely,the only thing "double",in the meaning of dark ,in him is that he lived a "double life" as straight husband and gay lover.But I think his character and way of being has less tricks than Ennis´s has ,because he expresses all his sensations and emotions in a less subtle way,he´s more open and lively and,for me,this excludes to be shadowy.I don´t know if I´ve understood it well,sorry if not...
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I agree with you in that Ennis´white or light colour shirts can mean innocence or lack of experience,the same than lines for me symbolises a lineal,straight (in mental sense,I mean...)character.What I don´t see so clear is that dark colours in Jack´s clothes mean a misterious and shadowy character;precisely,the only thing "double",in the meaning of dark ,in him is that he lived a "double life" as straight husband and gay lover.But I think his character and way of being has less tricks than Ennis´s has ,because he expresses all his sensations and emotions in a less subtle way,he´s more open and lively and,for me,this excludes to be shadowy.I don´t know if I´ve understood it well,sorry if not...
For some reason, the colors seem to evoke day and night, and night, with all its soft, veiled connotations, can thereby be extended to Jack's character. Perhaps I am reading too much here. But I do feel that Jack was the more romantic, of the two. And the dreamer, to be sure. For is it at night that we usually dream?
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Their clothing did indeed were reflections of their personalities. When I first saw Jack and the way he dressed I thought : now here's a guy who knows what looks good on him. Cocky, proud, boastful , confient and sure of himself. Wore his rodeo belt buckle with pride , showing it off to Ennis etc. Not afraid to take a chance either.
Ennis , on the other hand , boasted a subtle earthiness in mostly browns and light blues. muted, *quiet* colors that did'nt draw much attention to himself. Like Ennis himself. MO.
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Their clothing did indeed were reflections of their personalities. When I first saw Jack and the way he dressed I thought : now here's a guy who knows what looks good on him. Cocky, proud, boastful , confient and sure of himself. Wore his rodeo belt buckle with pride , showing it off to Ennis etc. Not afraid to take a chance either.
Ennis , on the other hand , boasted a subtle earthiness in mostly browns and light blues. muted, *quiet* colors that did'nt draw much attention to himself. Like Ennis himself. MO.
Well said,aintfoolin¡This is what I meant in my former post.But,you don´t say anything about the symbolism of Jack´s red shirt in reunion scene;for me it means clearly the passion,the love,but,perhaps also the temptation,the devil-side? >:D
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The red shirt, ah yes the symbol of passion and fire. That was Jack in the reunion scenes *redling his way back into Ennis's heart after 4 long years. Dressed for the ocassion, and intending to get noticed , he came back to reclaim what was his. To get back with Ennis. Fortunatly, Ennis had a little fire going on himself. At that point , all clothing became obsolete in my opinion. ;D ;) Red sybolizes passion and power, Jack had both that day. MO.
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Ennis' pale and mixed colors clothing indicate roots: he olny knew one kind of life, the ranch life, and also he only knew Wyoming and his quiet life (living with a wife or living alone and working, nothing else). That kind of colors indicate introspection and lack to adapting himself to changes and also fears and need to go unnoticed.
Jack's solid colors clothing indicate capacity to adapting himself to changes (first BBM, then Ennis, then Texas, then Lureen, then the "once in a while".....).He was like a chameleon, he believed in everything he did, and the strong colors of his clothing showing his cheerful, open and changeable character.
My sweet MPJ NASTY, I also noticed the symbolism of Jack's red shirt. SS tell us that Ennis wore his best shirt to see Jack in the reunion scene, so probably Jack did the same: he wanted to be nice for Ennis. But is so meaningful the image Alma saw through her window: A nice man in red shirt leaning on a red truck; was it like a provocation? Like a challenge? Red color means love, passion and, as you said, temptation, but for a lot of ancestralt cultures it have always meant prohibition: something red is something forbidden!!! And if you consider BBM as their Heaven on Earth, their love as the forbidden apple, and Aguirre as the God's angel who threw them out from paradise, you clearly can see their reunion like something forbidden, and because of that Jack was also "something forbidden" to Ennis, and for Alma Jack in red was like something diabolical or wicked who was going to destroy her marriage.
So for me Jack in red is a very powerful image meaning love and of course passion, but also a clear warning: If you catch something forbidden you know what you'll get.........,punishment, pain?
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I agree with both of you,aintfoolin and my dear Babytammy;on reunion´s day Jack was as the "forbidden fruit" to Ennis,the temptation that forces him to "sin",being unfaithful to his wife.Seeing as a symbolism,however,isn´t it a little moralist?.The same than the dead lamb that Ennis finds on the mountain after the FNIT;his duty was to watch the sheeps,avoiding that wolf could attack them.Of course,he wasn´t there,because he was "working" in a nicer job(ehem¡)and then,fail to this duty.Is it a warning to tell that if you leave your work to fall in carnal sins,you will have a punishment?
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I think Ennis saw it that way -- that he was being punished for falling into sin with Jack. This only adds to Ennis's guilt and paranoia that crops up later on. He sort of sees the dead sheep as the hand of God.
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It's also disobedience ( the sin of Eve) in that he's defied Aguirre's orders and not stayed up on the mountain to guard the sheep against predators. Which is what Aguirre implies happened the year before - he looks meaningfully at Jack at that point. So what was Jack doing the year before rather than shooting coyotes?
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I think Ennis saw it that way -- that he was being punished for falling into sin with Jack. This only adds to Ennis's guilt and paranoia that crops up later on. He sort of sees the dead sheep as the hand of God.
Completely agree,lamusica.In such an homophobic and fundamentalist environment he was raised in,is easy to see daily events as a God punishment signal.But I wonder if this was Ang Lee´s intention by including these scenes in the movie...
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Their clothing did indeed were reflections of their personalities. When I first saw Jack and the way he dressed I thought : now here's a guy who knows what looks good on him. Cocky, proud, boastful , confient and sure of himself. Wore his rodeo belt buckle with pride , showing it off to Ennis etc. Not afraid to take a chance either.
Ennis , on the other hand , boasted a subtle earthiness in mostly browns and light blues. muted, *quiet* colors that did'nt draw much attention to himself. Like Ennis himself. MO.
Wonderful evocation here, aintfoolin. I agree especially with your comments on Ennis -- the muted tones and earth colors. It certainly FELT and LOOKED Ennis...
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My sweet MPJ NASTY, I also noticed the symbolism of Jack's red shirt. SS tell us that Ennis wore his best shirt to see Jack in the reunion scene, so probably Jack did the same: he wanted to be nice for Ennis. But is so meaningful the image Alma saw through her window: A nice man in red shirt leaning on a red truck; was it like a provocation? Like a challenge? Red color means love, passion and, as you said, temptation, but for a lot of ancestralt cultures it have always meant prohibition: something red is something forbidden!!! And if you consider BBM as their Heaven on Earth, their love as the forbidden apple, and Aguirre as the God's angel who threw them out from paradise, you clearly can see their reunion like something forbidden, and because of that Jack was also "something forbidden" to Ennis, and for Alma Jack in red was like something diabolical or wicked who was going to destroy her marriage.
So for me Jack in red is a very powerful image meaning love and of course passion, but also a clear warning: If you catch something forbidden you know what you'll get.........,punishment, pain?
Well said, babytammy7. I had mentioned in some earlier post that this image of Jack is what I call Jack as the "flaming heart." There is passion and fire in this image, so appropriate to the reunion scene, when he seeks out Ennis... But I also love your comment about the "forbidden". SOmehow, I feel that it makes perfect sense.
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Well said, babytammy7. I had mentioned in some earlier post that this image of Jack is what I call Jack as the "flaming heart." There is passion and fire in this image, so appropriate to the reunion scene, when he seeks out Ennis... But I also love your comment about the "forbidden". SOmehow, I feel that it makes perfect sense.
Thank you so much Thomas. I also feel that it makes sense ^f^
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It's also the color of blood ( not in a morbid sense,) but the essence of life itself. The heart is also associated with being red. Perhaps you could say that Jack's red shirt symbolized life itself in Ennis's heart. And yes red is also asscoiated with the devil himself. Bringer of doom and destruction.. I suppose this was Alma's take on Jack' presence.
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Yes, red is blood´s colour,in the sense of giving life.Jack was giving life to Ennis with his presence after 4 years,¿no?.He was like fire in Ennis´heart, and again we see red...Also it´s the colour of what is forbidden and what is dangerous in a moral sense;doubtless,their relationship was seen so in Alma´s and their social environment case.
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It's also the color of blood ( not in a morbid sense,) but the essence of life itself. The heart is also associated with being red. Perhaps you could say that Jack's red shirt symbolized life itself in Ennis's heart. And yes red is also asscoiated with the devil himself. Bringer of doom and destruction.. I suppose this was Alma's take on Jack' presence.
Yes, it does signify the life force, and it does signify the victim of the sacrifice, the holocaust, one may say.
And it is interesting that you bring up the image of the tempter, most especially in that scene. Quite apt.
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"Anything interesting up there in heaven?"
Jack asks Ennis at the reunion campfire.
Do you suppose Ennis ever reflects on this question years later, after Jack was dead, and he was sitting around a campfire all by himself, thinking of what was up there in heaven?
(Even though Jack had thought he (and Ennis) was gonna' be "marched off to hell" ???)
Late jumping in here....
This reminds me of the literary tradition that lovers get turned into stars or constellations after death....
In _Romeo and Juliet_, after the wedding, Romeo immediately goes to see his friends and unexpectedly walks into a fight, during which Juliet's cousin kills Romeo's friend; Romeo angrily kills Juliet's cousin, thereby setting in motion the unavoidable tragedy....
Juliet, completely unaware of these tragic events, is daydreaming about the wedding night to come.... She invokes the well-known romantic idea, saying "When he shall die, take him and cut him up in little stars, and he will make the face of heaven so fine that all the world will fall in love with night . . ."
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Lovely observation, edgar! I hadn't connected those dots.....
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Late jumping in here....
This reminds me of the literary tradition that lovers get turned into stars or constellations after death....
You read my mind here, Edgar. Castor and Pollux indeed came to mind...
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Coming back to our heroes clothing,I read somewhere that Ennis had a kind of pathetic look,wearing always some tight shirts,as from a minor size... ??? Bearing in mind that Jack´s shirts seem rather larger,more at ease,can´t this be a metaphore of their position in life?. Ennis seems more constraint,more pressed,less at ease with clothings...and with his own feelings and kind of living,and Jack don´t.
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The way Ennis's shirt tail was coming out his pants was like he was still nine years old.
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The way Ennis's shirt tail was coming out his pants was like he was still nine years old.
Two bits of info may be of interest here: 1. The SS describes the Ennis that Aguirre sees as - "jeans torn, button gaping shirt" no doubt a worn-out shirt from his youth (couldn't afford a new one), 2. Cowboy shirts of the era (60s) were actually designed to fit tighter, be more body hugging, than shirts today. IMO they sure looked good on Heaths "muscular and supple body".
O0 O0 O0
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Two bits of info may be of interest here: 1. The SS describes the Ennis that Aguirre sees as - "jeans torn, button gaping shirt" no doubt a worn-out shirt from his youth (couldn't afford a new one), 2. Cowboy shirts of the era (60s) were actually designed to fit tighter, be more body hugging, than shirts today. IMO they sure looked good on Heaths "muscular and supple body".
O0 O0 O0
:*( What he said.
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Coming back to our heroes clothing,I read somewhere that Ennis had a kind of pathetic look,wearing always some tight shirts,as from a minor size... ??? Bearing in mind that Jack´s shirts seem rather larger,more at ease,can´t this be a metaphore of their position in life?. Ennis seems more constraint,more pressed,less at ease with clothings...and with his own feelings and kind of living,and Jack don´t.
Ennis's clothes were certainly more ill-fitting. And the symbolism of this is quite interesting. Yes, I can think of a number of double meanings for this one!
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:t) I agree with you,Jackster,because you know more about cowboys than me... O0 But,if it´s so,why Jack seems to be so at ease,even with his clothings that look always not so tight as Ennis´?.
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:t) I agree with you,Jackster,because you know more about cowboys than me... O0 But,if it´s so,why Jack seems to be so at ease,even with his clothings that look always not so tight as Ennis´?.
Well,I´ve finished by quoting myself;it´s like speaking with oneself...Poor me¡ :i Speaking seriously,I would like to know if this question of Ennis clothings could be a symbolism of his close,rather "narrow" way of seeing life.The same than,as someone said,the way both of them were standing in front of Aguirre in his trailer;Jack in the middle,sure of himself,while Ennis put as far as he could from both men as he leaned on the wall,shy and closed.Or the way they went to the tavern,with Jack in front,guiding,and Ennis behind,lowing head and eyes,letting be guided,much more unsure than his companion.I always thought that it could me a metaphor of their sexual relationships,but also,could these scenes be a way of showing their respective way of standing before life?.
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I agree with you,Jackster, because you know more about cowboys than me... But, if it´s so, why does Jack seems to be so at ease, even with his clothings that look always not so tight as Ennis´?.
MPJ: Without getting way OT here – I feel that Jack’s clothes were generally much more style conscious than Ennis – start to finish. Reflecting in part his more secure financial position, even when young. Ennis’s outfits (especially early on, but later also) really reflected his poor economic status, his tan Carhartt work coat for instance is much more utilitarian than Jack’s fancy green wool coat with the wool collar. The only thing Ennis had that I see that was at all expensive was his hat. This generally was often seen as the signal of a man’s character in that time and place, dating back to an era before people had cars (or trucks) that set them apart. All Ennis owned was in that little brown bag, everything. The way he carefully flicked out his cigarette while waiting outside the trailer, saving the second half to smoke later in the bar, really indicates how desperate he was financially. When was the last time you saw that? The idea I believe was to illustrate that Ennis couldn’t afford to buy new clothes when his old clothes became ill fitting as he grew into manhood.
The other symbolisms you mention are IMO just as you say, all indicators of Ennis’s general demeanor and regard for himself. Jack, of course had been there in Aguirre’s office before, the year earlier, and being the cocky Jack that he was, he was strutting his stuff and showing off - for Ennis’s benefit no doubt. ;)
PS – Not sure I know a lot more about cowboys, - but I am eager to learn.
O0 O0 O0
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I don't know if this one has been mentioned.
Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"
I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.
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I never thought about it that way. It must have been a bitter pill for Jack to swallow, without even the illusion that Ennis was 'stuck with what he had', instead of choosing not to be with him.
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I don't know if this one has been mentioned.
Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"
I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.
Great observation LJN of Jack’s viewpoint. A curious sort of bookend here (maybe) –
After the reunion in ’67, in the motel room when Jack tells Ennis he couldn’t get here fast enough, then asks Ennis “What about you?” – Ennis could only reply:
“Me? . . ah . . . I dunno”.
Then, sixteen years later, in this scene by the lake, in response to Jacks question Ennis tells him about “puttin’ the blocks to good lookin’ little gal over in Riverton” . . . then goes on to utter a disgusted:
“ah, . . . I dunno”.
He’s still has never figured it out in sixteen years! He’s still as confused or unwilling to accept himself and his feelings for Jack as he was in ’67. He can’t fix it, so he’s just standing it – barely.
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Excellent bookends! I never picked up on that. And in reading your post, Jackster, this line from the SS popped into my head "...and maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be." I think he's barely standing it, as you said- he has his breakdown after Jack lets loose on him the next morning.
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Well,I´ve finished by quoting myself;it´s like speaking with oneself...Poor me¡ :i Speaking seriously,I would like to know if this question of Ennis clothings could be a symbolism of his close,rather "narrow" way of seeing life.The same than,as someone said,the way both of them were standing in front of Aguirre in his trailer;Jack in the middle,sure of himself,while Ennis put as far as he could from both men as he leaned on the wall,shy and closed.Or the way they went to the tavern,with Jack in front,guiding,and Ennis behind,lowing head and eyes,letting be guided,much more unsure than his companion.I always thought that it could me a metaphor of their sexual relationships,but also,could these scenes be a way of showing their respective way of standing before life?.
I tend to think of the color symbolism here in terms of innocence and naivite. I guess one can see an aspect of "narrowness" here, although it may also signify an openness borne out of inexperience, no?
There is something child-like in Ennis, especially in those early scenes.
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I don't know if this one has been mentioned.
Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"
I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.
Interesting point here, LJN! It makes sense to me.
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Great observation LJN of Jack’s viewpoint. A curious sort of bookend here (maybe) –
After the reunion in ’67, in the motel room when Jack tells Ennis he couldn’t get here fast enough, then asks Ennis “What about you?” – Ennis could only reply:
“Me? . . ah . . . I dunno”.
Then, sixteen years later, in this scene by the lake, in response to Jacks question Ennis tells him about “puttin’ the blocks to good lookin’ little gal over in Riverton” . . . then goes on to utter a disgusted:
“ah, . . . I dunno”.
He’s still has never figured it out in sixteen years! He’s still as confused or unwilling to accept himself and his feelings for Jack as he was in ’67. He can’t fix it, so he’s just standing it – barely.
I had not noticed this jackster. Wonderful observation! I find it intriguing in so many levels -- it certainly embodies a sense of internal stagnation that settled on them and refused to be moved. A wonderful way of expressing the lack of movement during the intervening years...
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I think I've always seen Ennis as stasis - he's so reluctant to move in physical or emotional space. He feels some kind of invisible force-field around him which he's afraid to touch in case it harms him, so he pulls himself into the little space where he's safe and cuts himslef off from possibilities, whether good or bad. Jack, on the other hand, is mobile, physically and emotionally - he also seems to me to have the attributes of a shape-shifter. He's open to whatever life offers, too, and is less concerned with protecting himself than Ennis is - fatally, as it turns out.
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Good one, WW. So together, they could have made a psychologically healthy whole, had they been able to be together and mesh their lives. But they didn't have that chance to create a whole, due to Ennis's inertia.
kathy
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Great observations here!! Now I know why I try to avoid these threads: they keep me up all night!
I don't know if this one has been mentioned.
Jack: "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?"
I see that as Jack asking Ennis why he no longer needs the "smokescreen" but yet still won't be with him. The marriage was the original "excuse" and it's been years since the divorce and nothing's changed in their relationship in terms of moving forward.
I hadn't quite thought of it in this way. How that must gradually have eaten at Jack during the 6 or so years since Ennis's divorce! Then Jackster's bookend "I dunno...", and topped off with Ennis's resonating silence after Jack's revelation of "Sometimes I miss you so much...". No wonder Jack went off on Ennis when he told him that their August trip was cancelled! It was just one blow too many, impossible to bear quietly.
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Good one, WW. So together, they could have made a psychologically healthy whole, had they been able to be together and mesh their lives. But they didn't have that chance to create a whole, due to Ennis's inertia.
kathy
Thanks WW and kathy. I agree with the symbolism, and the congruence of one with the other when taken together. But yes, from such complements rise conflicts, although these still add to the innder life and dynamic of the whole.
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Great observations here!! Now I know why I try to avoid these threads: they keep me up all night!
I hadn't quite thought of it in this way. How that must gradually have eaten at Jack during the 6 or so years since Ennis's divorce! Then Jackster's bookend "I dunno...", and topped off with Ennis's resonating silence after Jack's revelation of "Sometimes I miss you so much...". No wonder Jack went off on Ennis when he told him that their August trip was cancelled! It was just one blow too many, impossible to bear quietly.
My thoughts exactly, proulxfan. I thought LJN's comment quite rich in added significances.
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2. Cowboy shirts of the era (60s) were actually designed to fit tighter, be more body hugging, than shirts today.
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff104%2FvcdrtPH%2F__Wheatcroft81Avedon-2.jpg&hash=6853964ca39a5bebcf52e2cc9fe892232a90c0c9)Actual cowboy. Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm
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Hello, Dal, and welcome to the forum. What a fascinating pic - strange to see how in some ways a real cowboy looks like one's mental image and in others not. Waterns often glamorize cowboy clothes in a way that seems unrealistic to me - Ennis and Jack looked much like this pic as far as clothes are concerned but I often wonder if their use of the word "cowboy" is partly motivated by a desire to tap intoi a glamorous image rather than the rather mundane realities of traditional cowboy life.
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Your right WW. Hollywood has glamorized the "cowboy" image to tailor made clothing this and that, but this picture amazes me. I could see Ennis wearing this. In fact I think I DID see Ennis wearing this. This is Not your typical "Rhinestone cowboy". :c) :*(
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I could see Ennis wearing this. In fact I think I DID see Ennis wearing this. This is Not your typical "Rhinestone cowboy". :c) :*(
Thanks for the welcome welshwitch! Yeah, this guy's the real thing, in a clean shirt I guess. What is also interesting is the change brought about by 20 years of outdoor work in Montana (he lived there) and maybe too much to drink and smoke. Here is the same cowboy 15 years later:
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff104%2FvcdrtPH%2F--WYORancher.jpg&hash=3ef5fa7dc9c311812800bb96f17c8409b597c113)
"Ennis stayed as lean as a clothes-pole, stepped around in worn boots, jeans and shirts summer and winter, added a canvas coat in cold weather. A benign growth appeared on his eyelid and gave it a drooping appearance, a broken nose healed crooked."
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Welcome to the forum,Dal¡ #$# .It´s interesting to see as Hollywood has ,indeed,made a nice cowboy figure,almost as for being in a fashion parade ;D ,what don´t make less credible neither the story nor our boys... %( But it´s sure this guy didn´t wear so clean as them¡
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(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi46.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff104%2FvcdrtPH%2F__Wheatcroft81Avedon-2.jpg&hash=6853964ca39a5bebcf52e2cc9fe892232a90c0c9)Actual cowboy. Mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm-mmm
Great pix Dal, that's Ennis's brother ain't it?. :) A bit O.T. here, but since we’re talkin’ cowboy clothes and gear. An interesting site to visit is William Matthews site. He’s the American watercolorist who did the illustrations for the First Printing of Annie’s book Close Range (containing Brokeback Mountain). I can’t post a link but it’s easy enough to find. Lots of great watercolors of “real” Ennis’s and Jack’s, romanticized just enough IMHO. They look just like what you would imagine from Annie’s description of them in the SS.
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Great pix Dal, that's Ennis's brother ain't it?. :) A bit O.T. here, but since we’re talkin’ cowboy clothes and gear. An interesting site to visit is William Matthews site. He’s the American watercolorist who did the illustrations for the First Printing of Annie’s book Close Range (containing Brokeback Mountain). I can’t post a link but it’s easy enough to find. Lots of great watercolors of “real” Ennis’s and Jack’s, romanticized just enough IMHO. They look just like what you would imagine from Annie’s description of them in the SS.
Yeah Jackster, this could very well pass for K.E., Ennis's brother, amazing isn't it? Thanks Dal for these pics.
I am struck by the fact that Jack, living in Texas, and having all the parkas, jackets and heavy coats. Why would one buy these living so close to the equator where it's more hot than cold? I suppose he bought them with Wyoming in mind, namely his visits to Ennis. I would not describe Jack's style of dress overly flamboyant after he married Lureen , but he did spice it up more than Ennis frome the red and purple shirts he owned to the jacket he wore in the divorce scene. Being a Texas business man at this point, I'd say he added a little "spicey flavor" to his mix of outfits.
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Yeah Jackster, this could very well pass for K.E., Ennis's brother, amazing isn't it? Thanks Dal for these pics.
I am struck by the fact that Jack, living in Texas, and having all the parkas, jackets and heavy coats. Why would one buy these living so close to the equator where it's more hot than cold? I suppose he bought them with Wyoming in mind, namely his visits to Ennis. I would not describe Jack's style of dress overly flamboyant after he married Lureen , but he did spice it up more than Ennis frome the red and purple shirts he owned to the jacket he wore in the divorce scene. Being a Texas business man at this point, I'd say he added a little "spicey flavor" to his mix of outfits.
Welocm Dal! :)
aintfoolin, I agree that Jack wasn't exactly flamboyant, but I had always associated his style as an extension of his outgoing personailty, as well as a hint of that "mystery" I associate with him.
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Somebody has spoken about the meaning of the train that suddenly "cuts" Ennis figure in the beginning of the movie,while He's waiting for Aguirre.He says it means that he could have taken a train-the train of the changes his life was going to overcome-,but somehow he leaves it pass.And that its image covers Ennis figure because it's like a deep and sudden cut in his life up to that moment.Any comment about the meaning of that train and about the way of showing it?.
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Somebody has spoken about the meaning of the train that suddenly "cuts" Ennis figure in the beginning of the movie,while He's waiting for Aguirre.He says it means that he could have taken a train-the train of the changes his life was going to overcome-,but somehow he leaves it pass.And that its image covers Ennis figure because it's like a deep and sudden cut in his life up to that moment.Any comment about the meaning of that train and about the way of showing it?.
Beautiful, MPJ. Simply beautiful.
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The shots of the train in the opening scene are also a kind of foreshadowing of the technique used later on for the passage of years: brief "snapshots" of both men's lives both separately and together -- e.g., Ennis' quarrel with Alma over her leaving for work early, Jack driving the "Versatile" (ah!) farm machinery with Bobby, the brief glimpses of their wilderness meetings. The way the train passing is shot, we get brief 'snapshot' views of Ennis as well.
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Marge Innavera, I do see what you mean. There is a certain choppiness in the transitions all throughout -- sometimes, we are not so sure how much time had elapsed in between. And glimpsing Ennis through the voids of the passing train, we get a visual equivalent. Time seems to stand still for him, but it never does.
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I've always seen the intermittent view of Ennis as seen through the wheels of the passing train as a metaphor for the 20 year relationship of Ennis & Jack, i.e. - There; Gone; There; Gone; There; Gone; etc. Just MHO. But I can now see these other views as well.
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I've always seen the intermittent view of Ennis as seen through the wheels of the passing train as a metaphor for the 20 year relationship of Ennis & Jack, i.e. - There; Gone; There; Gone; There; Gone; etc. Just MHO. But I can now see these other views as well.
Truthfully, I had thought about the train scene before, but have never thought of it this way until now. Thanks friends for brining this up. It's a wonderful metaphor, IMO.
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The train is also a powwerful symbol - it represents the coming of industrialisation and the opening up of the West, as in "Westward the Course of Empire Takes its Way". It suggests to me that J and E are to some extent out of their time, in a world and way of life that's passing, while the future is also passing them by.
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Fantastically well said. These are some great insights. Thanks everyone. :c)
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The train is also a powwerful symbol - it represents the coming of industrialisation and the opening up of the West, as in "Westward the Course of Empire Takes its Way". It suggests to me that J and E are to some extent out of their time, in a world and way of life that's passing, while the future is also passing them by.
Wonderful.
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Wonderful.
Some the very best posts on the forum are in this thread imo. I'm always learning new lessons in the film. Thanks everyone.
Dont't know if any one has said this but,I feel the very title of the film speaks volumes. Brokeback is a mountain, has a very solid foundation. such as their love, but there are rocky surfaces, and stomy weather, some dangerous and scarey places here even predators dwell.
As was their love. It was a mountain hard to climb. , Intimidating in it's strength,their love reached highs and lows. But the mountain is also beautiful. it's scenery wide open and free. It's what Ennis and Jack :f)found on Brokeback. At times, this was their love too.
I feel a mountain is a fitting symbol of their journey of love. So high you can't get over it, so big you can't get arround it. Jack felt leaving Brokeback Mt. was an end of a beginning, Jack was serious about his dreams with Ennis, all he needed was Ennis himself. . Ennis felt it as the beginning to an end. He knew he could not deny accepting Jack's love , givin so freely, yet he felt undeserving of it. Jack has the nearly impossible task of making Ennis feel differently. That's a hard mountain to climb, and for him it was.
Did they ever conquer this mountain? I feel Jack reached the top and looked over, Ennis joined him only after Jack's death in the closet scene, when he found the shirts. , Ennis's moment of love lost and found. Too bad they could'nt reach the top together.
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Thanks aintfoolin!
I certainly felt that the mountain was a symbol of something that was double-edged, as you implied. Even the name itself -- broke back -- speaks of some kind of tribulation, no? At least this is the impression I get. Perhaps it implies Love's labors...
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Reading every post makes my heart ache. I don't think there will ever be one that fills the love of Ennis and Jack. Thanks for your thoughts.
%) %) %) ENNIS AND JACK :\'( :\'( :\'(
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Besides being such a rugged mountain, Broke Back Mountain was ponderous, which to me, always meant, too heavy to lift or to carry. That's why I think it was chosen by Annie as the name of the place where Ennis and Jack fell into their relationship. They found love, but neither of them were to find it easy to carry the weight of that love through their lives. No matter where they were, or whom they were with, the weight of BBM and what that signified always oppressed them. By that, I mean their love, while wonderful and deep and powerful, also sat heavily upon them, thus making them always aware that being apart, they were not able to live their love outwardly, fully, together. I think it's the perfect name for that mountain, and the mountain is the perfect symbol for a love that so completely dominated the two men. Again kudos to Annie.
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Great posts aintfoolin' and Lamusica! :\'(
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Besides being such a rugged mountain, Broke Back Mountain was ponderous, which to me, always meant, too heavy to lift or to carry. That's why I think it was chosen by Annie as the name of the place where Ennis and Jack fell into their relationship. They found love, but neither of them were to find it easy to carry the weight of that love through their lives. No matter where they were, or whom they were with, the weight of BBM and what that signified always oppressed them. By that, I mean their love, while wonderful and deep and powerful, also sat heavily upon them, thus making them always aware that being apart, they were not able to live their love outwardly, fully, together. I think it's the perfect name for that mountain, and the mountain is the perfect symbol for a love that so completely dominated the two men. Again judos to Annie.
The moutain always seemed to loom large between them as much as it kept them together, I suppose.
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This is true. The mountain was always between them. Wether they were at the peak, (The Dozy Embrace) or in the valley, ( the divorce scene) ,The passion of love was shown. Even in the end, when Jack acknowledged that it was the mountain that stood between them , it was all they had to build on. Their love was an immovable, stubborn force, but as Jack said "Brokeback got us good" , implying that even if they wanted to, they could'nt quit each other. No one else was really gonna do with these two. MO.
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This is true. The mountain was always between them. Wether they were at the peak, (The Dozy Embrace) or in the valley, ( the divorce scene) ,The passion of love was shown. Even in the end, when Jack acknowledged that it was the mountain that stood between them , it was all they had to build on. Their love was an immovable, stubborn force, but as Jack said "Brokeback got us good" , implying that even if they wanted to, they could'nt quit each other. No one else was really gonna do with these two. MO.
Absolutely lovely.
:cr)
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The mountain is truly a metaphor for their relationship, no? The highs and the lows. The adamantine quality. The immobility. That which lasts forever, even as things change and die.
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But in the end didn't Jack surrendered to the mountain, and recognizing what an important part it play in realationship with Ennis, and that in the end it was his favorite place, and wanted his ashes there. Jack knew even then it was him, Ennis and the mountain. Even though his greatest fear was that it was all they would have, that later it was all he wanted.
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I think in the end, he resigned himself to the fact that this was what he will only have -- but also, this was what he will always have.
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I think in the end, he resigned himself to the fact that this was what he will only have -- but also, this was what he will always have.
Beautiful, tpe (t)
About the Brokeback Mountain being their love : it also makes me remember the words of Jack's father. He didn't want Jack (his ashes) to go there.
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Jack's father did alot for his own selfish reasons. Denied Jack a father's love and friendship. This has always irked me badly towards Mr. Twist. After Jack finally escapes his tyranny and abuse, making something of his life, the likes of the old man steps in the way of Jack's last wishes. To be scatterd over Brokeback mountain. It's where he found the most acceptance and happiness.
I see the only thing double meaning here is the standards he applied to himself with an implication that he was somewhat justified in how he treated Jack. like he was a bastion of sweetness and light for Jack, Yeah right.. Put his failure as a father in more favor by putting himself above Ennis's audacity to love his son. His gay son. He was just wrong, so does'nt really matter what he wanted in the end. while I'm going long I would just say that Jack turned out to be a sensitive, kind, and nurturing person, very giving of himself despite his father. .blessed with a insight of fate itself imo
. He was able to tap into Ennis's conflicted soul Like preserving the shirts, and displaying them the way he did. he believed. Chose a postcard with mountains, reminding Ennis and preserving the love. He writes it's "long overdue, another "clue to Ennis. These two elements of the postcard says : Mountains+"long overdue"= remember Brokeback. and only Ennis would know they meant something special.... little "vintageJack" things like this reasurred Ennis that he still loved and cared.
Alma was partially right when she guessed Jack was some one Ennis "cowboyed with" and Brokeback was not a pretend place , but a real place, complete with bluebirds singing and a whiskey...oops :) ;) ;) ;) (almost) a whiskey spring. Both had good times up there. It was their "favorite place". <^( #) <^( #) #) My thoughts.
I wish all of you and yours a very Happy Peaceful Holiday and a great new year.!! :t)
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I ALSO WISH YOU A VERY HAPPY CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS AND A BETTER NEW YEAR,AINTFOOLIN¡ :cr)
A double meaning,or something similar,to me appears in the confrontation scene when they left BBM.An scene where they passed from a game-when Jack puts his lasso around Ennis,as a way to make the moment a bit lighter...-to a fight.As a mix,in this case,of relief of the nerves that the situation provokes in them,a rage for leaving each other and perhaps in Ennis case,disgust for what has passed in BBM and what he must deal with in the real world they're going to face soon.
For me this changing situation to pass from playing to fighting could mean their own passing from the paradise on Earth that BBM to the real world,this one that could easily "fight" with them,beat them morally and socially speaking.A change that produced itself as quickly as they passed to one situation to the other during their last physical contact in BBM.I don't know if all this makes sense... ???
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The train is also a powwerful symbol - it represents the coming of industrialisation and the opening up of the West, as in "Westward the Course of Empire Takes its Way". It suggests to me that J and E are to some extent out of their time, in a world and way of life that's passing, while the future is also passing them by.
One more comment on the train thingy:
Most historians of the old West (US) consider the end of the frontier era to be the finishing of the railroad line across the continent. The coming-of-age of the railroads meant not only increased urbanization but, on another level, the shrinking of possibilities and the freedom that the frontier symbolized. (Sometimes appropriately and sometimes not...)
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About the Brokeback Mountain being their love : it also makes me remember the words of Jack's father. He didn't want Jack (his ashes) to go there.
I somehow felt that John Twist's refusal also had a hideen meaning -- that he was not willing to acknowledge his son's source happiness -- as if he resented him having even that one source of consolation.
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Jack's father did alot for his own selfish reasons. Denied Jack a father's love and friendship. This has always irked me badly towards Mr. Twist. After Jack finally escapes his tyranny and abuse, making something of his life, the likes of the old man steps in the way of Jack's last wishes. To be scatterd over Brokeback mountain. It's where he found the most acceptance and happiness.
I see the only thing double meaning here is the standards he applied to himself with an implication that he was somewhat justified in how he treated Jack. like he was a bastion of sweetness and light for Jack, Yeah right.. Put his failure as a father in more favor by putting himself above Ennis's audacity to love his son. His gay son. He was just wrong, so does'nt really matter what he wanted in the end. while I'm going long I would just say that Jack turned out to be a sensitive, kind, and nurturing person, very giving of himself despite his father. .blessed with a insight of fate itself imo
. He was able to tap into Ennis's conflicted soul Like preserving the shirts, and displaying them the way he did. he believed. Chose a postcard with mountains, reminding Ennis and preserving the love. He writes it's "long overdue, another "clue to Ennis. These two elements of the postcard says : Mountains+"long overdue"= remember Brokeback. and only Ennis would know they meant something special.... little "vintageJack" things like this reasurred Ennis that he still loved and cared.
Alma was partially right when she guessed Jack was some one Ennis "cowboyed with" and Brokeback was not a pretend place , but a real place, complete with bluebirds singing and a whiskey...oops :) ;) ;) ;) (almost) a whiskey spring. Both had good times up there. It was their "favorite place". <^( #) <^( #) #) My thoughts.
I wish all of you and yours a very Happy Peaceful Holiday and a great new year.!! :t)
aintfoolin, I had not yet read your post when I wrote my previous post. You elucidate it here better than I did, to be sure. Yes, I felt that John Twist's behavior was full of double meanings -- that for everything he spoke about or touched during this scene with Ennis on LF had someting hidden underneath. And although some members do disagree with this, I do feel that he was able to tap into Ennis's psyche in a way that could only have been accomplished by someone who understood the true meaning of Ennis's visit, and was resolute in not granting him anything for his troubles.
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. He was able to tap into Ennis's conflicted soul Like preserving the shirts, and displaying them the way he did. he believed. Chose a postcard with mountains, reminding Ennis and preserving the love. He writes it's "long overdue, another "clue to Ennis. These two elements of the postcard says : Mountains+"long overdue"= remember Brokeback. and only Ennis would know they meant something special.... little "vintageJack" things like this reasurred Ennis that he still loved and cared.
Your whole post was beautiful but this part made me cry. :\'( And I agree Jack grew up into the man he was despite his father.
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We´ve spoken largely before about the meaning of colours as a reflex of both characters,and,even,in significative scenes as the reunion´s.But,have you realised that Ennis only wears blue clothes when he´s away from Jack?:In the farewell scene with Cassie,in Thanksgiving Day,in the scene of the firewoks...What do you mean that means?.
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We´ve spoken largely before about the meaning of colours as a reflex of both characters,and,even,in significative scenes as the reunion´s.But,have you realised that Ennis only wears blue clothes when he´s away from Jack?:In the farewell scene with Cassie,in Thanksgiving Day,in the scene of the firewoks...What do you mean that means?.
Interesting also. Could it mean that he remembers Jack this way -- during the dry spells when they are apart?
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aintfoolin, I had not yet read your post when I wrote my previous post. You elucidate it here better than I did, to be sure. Yes, I felt that John Twist's behavior was full of double meanings -- that for everything he spoke about or touched during this scene with Ennis on LF had someting hidden underneath. And although some members do disagree with this, I do feel that he was able to tap into Ennis's psyche in a way that could only have been accomplished by someone who understood the true meaning of Ennis's visit, and was resolute in not granting him anything for his troubles.
Yes Tpe, I agree. Sorry so long getting back but yes Mr. Twist was full of double meanings and contradictions during Ennis's visit. His own guilt was probably diminished somewhat after Jack's death, so he thought, but along comes Ennis, someone who loved and cared for Jack despite his failure as a father. Obviously he felt Ennis had no right being there but there he was. Despite his efforts to humiliate Ennis (mentioning Randall and so forth...), Ennis was there on Jack's behalf to carrying out his last wishes.
Mr. Twist tried to turn it into a test of wills. His hatred for what Ennis's presence there meant, against the love Jack had for this man and v/v despite that hatred..They were two men who Jack felt had failed him in different ways. The one who sought a peaceful redemption was redeemed. The other continued to drown in self-righteous anger. Ennis did'nt get the answers he wanted regarding the ashes, but Jack had went one better. the shirts, a monument wrapped up in a testament of undying love for him. thru Jack, he and Ennis had the last word in the end imo.
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I do think John Twist EXPECTED Ennis to fight him on this -- John Twisted seemed to have been somewhat disapoointed, since he felt the need to reiterate that the ashes stay in LF close to the end of the visit. It was as if he resented the connection made between Ennis and Mrs. Twist, and wanted to remind Ennis that he had lost what he would have values the most -- i.e., Jack's ashes -- in spite of Ennis getting the shirts...
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Coming back to the colours topic,I wonder if seeing Ennis wearing lighter colours,specially blue,means a way to have Jack with him.I mean,if it's a way to remember him,and mainly still,TO BE Jack when he's away.We all know that Ennis is little keen on fantasies and almost unfeasible projects- a Jack's characteristic-and that this is reflected in his clothings,always in clear and related with Earth colours.Well then,if Ennis wears a Jack's colour-like blue-expressing a lively,dreamer,rebel way of being,we can find that Ennis only allow himself some kind of fantasies-it´s to say,an approach to Jack's personality-when he's alone,when nobody sees him or listen to him,neither Jack,of course.In these moments,he can allow himself to dream in the "sweet life together",and also wishing it and thinking Jack was right in defying society's rules.But coming back to reality-in his case,crashing against reality-he must behave himself according to these rules and keep on being "Ennis,the stubborn realistic".It's a kind of adopting the lover's way of being because,at the end,both of them was different sides of the same coin.I don't know, as always,if I'm explaining myself well and this makes sense...
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Coming back to the colours topic,I wonder if seeing Ennis wearing lighter colours,specially blue,means a way to have Jack with him.I mean,if it's a way to remember him,and mainly still,TO BE Jack when he's away.We all know that Ennis is little keen on fantasies and almost unfeasible projects- a Jack's characteristic-and that this is reflected in his clothings,always in clear and related with Earth colours.Well then,if Ennis wears a Jack's colour-like blue-expressing a lively,dreamer,rebel way of being,we can find that Ennis only allow himself some kind of fantasies-it´s to say,an approach to Jack's personality-when he's alone,when nobody sees him or listen to him,neither Jack,of course.In these moments,he can allow himself to dream in the "sweet life together",and also wishing it and thinking Jack was right in defying society's rules.But coming back to reality-in his case,crashing against reality-he must behave himself according to these rules and keep on being "Ennis,the stubborn realistic".It's a kind of adopting the lover's way of being because,at the end,both of them was different sides of the same coin.I don't know, as always,if I'm explaining myself well and this makes sense...
MPJ, This is so interesting that you point this out. Ennis's wearing of blue may very well be his way of "channeling" Jack if you will, when they are apart. Perhaps it is a code that keeps Jack with him at all times. He even ended up with a blue and white truck in the end. Perhaps it is his way of mostly identifying Jack in that blue shirt when he first laid eyes on him. It's possible that Jack's clothes stood out for Ennis as a reminder of him in perhaps a sub-concious way. We KNOW Jack loved blue. A blue tent?,insistance on finding the the blue parka etc....certainly Ennis could lose himself in fantasys about Jack and "live" them out whenever Jack was away. I don't doubt it.
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MPJ, This is so interesting that you point this out. Ennis's wearing of blue may very well be his way of "channeling" Jack if you will, when they are apart. Perhaps it is a code that keeps Jack with him at all times. He even ended up with a blue and white truck in the end. Perhaps it is his way of mostly identifying Jack in that blue shirt when he first laid eyes on him. It's possible that Jack's clothes stood out for Ennis as a reminder of him in perhaps a sub-concious way. We KNOW Jack loved blue. A blue tent?,insistance on finding the the blue parka etc....certainly Ennis could lose himself in fantasys about Jack and "live" them out whenever Jack was away. I don't doubt it.
Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin. Yes, this is how I understood this when I first saw the topic about colors posted here.
I love the word "channeling". It captures the idea quite beautifully.
I don't know whether we are reading too much here, but I certainly feel that the rarker colors, the blues and the purples, somehow point back to Jack. Which is why I think this idea resonates with me, as it clearly did with both of you.
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At the end of the "Dozy embrace scene",we see Jack looking at Ennis who is running away from him in his horse;and immediately,it's joined with the image of a older Jack-the last image of him we see- looking also how Ennis is going in his truck.We don´t see Ennis image,but only his horses in a kind of cage.Can we suppose that this mean the freedom they enjoyed at BBM-the horse running-and the second the all kind of social pressures and personal denials that they must suffer at that point of their relationship-the horses in a cage,like prisoners;two horses,like both of them?.
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At the end of the "Dozy embrace scene",we see Jack looking at Ennis who is running away from him in his horse;and immediately,it's joined with the image of a older Jack-the last image of him we see- looking also how Ennis is going in his truck.We don´t see Ennis image,but only his horses in a kind of cage.Can we suppose that this mean the freedom they enjoyed at BBM-the horse running-and the second the all kind of social pressures and personal denials that they must suffer at that point of their relationship-the horses in a cage,like prisoners;two horses,like both of them?.
Very interesting, MPJ. The image of the caged horses was somehow at the back of my mind, and so your post didn't seem to surprise me at all. Thanks. Perhaps I can elaborate on this after further thought...
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Coming back to the possible symbolism of the two different ways of Jack seeing Ennis leaving;from the confrontation scene onwards,all we can see between both of them are comparisons;we compare the embrace after Jack's tragical speech and Ennis not less tragical reaction with the dozy embrace.A dispairing embrace,really hopeless,between a man who had lived by hopes-Jack-and in these moments he saw how they're dissapearing,the same than perhaps his love-if not,the possibility of living it fully-;and another man who had never lived for and by hopes because he never hope anything from himself really.
We compare Jack's reaction at the point of giving up and perhaps,cut the relationship with Ennis after so many years of denials and renouncements ;and who reacted with tenderness,however,when he saw how his partner broke down and seemed to lose all control over his emotions and have his shield cracked.We compare this with young Jack's reaction ,completely given to the man he loved,who,by his side,gave him the same love proofs than his mother gave him when he was a child-as they're the two persons he loved him and he loved the most in his life...-;but always taking control of the situation,with his shield well put around him and knowing inside him that when summer was over,their relationship would be also over.I've already spoken about the different Jack's glances when he saw Ennis leaving,but for me the difference lies in that after the dozy embrace,Ennis is running free from his lover,knowing he'll come back by night to be with him again,strong and happy in his horse as their new love then.The Ennis the older,sad and tired Jack watched leaving is running from his lover with a pain inside,not being free from the environment,from the society and from HIMSELF;neither he nor Jack-specially this one-knew really when they are going to see themselves again,even if they're really going to met again-we know after that they NEVER met again for unlucky reasons-.Their love is also sad and tired and they didn't feel free,so there's not a quick horse,but two quiet horses caged into an old truck...Comparisons and symbolisms that go together,IMO,if it makes sense.
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Coming back to the possible symbolism of the two different ways of Jack seeing Ennis leaving;from the confrontation scene onwards,all we can see between both of them are comparisons;we compare the embrace after Jack's tragical speech and Ennis not less tragical reaction with the dozy embrace.A dispairing embrace,really hopeless,between a man who had lived by hopes-Jack-and in these moments he saw how they're dissapearing,the same than perhaps his love-if not,the possibility of living it fully-;and another man who had never lived for and by hopes because he never hope anything from himself really.
We compare Jack's reaction at the point of giving up and perhaps,cut the relationship with Ennis after so many years of denials and renouncements ;and who reacted with tenderness,however,when he saw how his partner broke down and seemed to lose all control over his emotions and have his shield cracked.We compare this with young Jack's reaction ,completely given to the man he loved,who,by his side,gave him the same love proofs than his mother gave him when he was a child-as they're the two persons he loved him and he loved the most in his life...-;but always taking control of the situation,with his shield well put around him and knowing inside him that when summer was over,their relationship would be also over.I've already spoken about the different Jack's glances when he saw Ennis leaving,but for me the difference lies in that after the dozy embrace,Ennis is running free from his lover,knowing he'll come back by night to be with him again,strong and happy in his horse as their new love then.The Ennis the older,sad and tired Jack watched leaving is running from his lover with a pain inside,not being free from the environment,from the society and from HIMSELF;neither he nor Jack-specially this one-knew really when they are going to see themselves again,even if they're really going to met again-we know after that they NEVER met again for unlucky reasons-.Their love is also sad and tired and they didn't feel free,so there's not a quick horse,but two quiet horses caged into an old truck...Comparisons and symbolisms that go together,IMO,if it makes sense.
Beautiful, MPJ.
I do think that the final embrace was one of quiet desperation, as Thoreau would have called it. The contrast with the Dozy embrace is stunning. It was a magnificent juxtaposition, and -- for me -- the highlight of the entire emotional struggle between them.
I do think that the juxtaposition was very deliberate. It certainly was not especially implied in the ss, so I credit the movie for this entirely. For me, it was inescapable that we are drawn to see symbolism in the contrasting embraces. Such a comparison hits you in the gut.
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Beautiful, MPJ.
I do think that the final embrace was one of quiet desperation, as Thoreau would have called it. The contrast with the Dozy embrace is stunning. It was a magnificent juxtaposition, and -- for me -- the highlight of the entire emotional struggle between them.
I do think that the juxtaposition was very deliberate. It certainly was not especially implied in the ss, so I credit the movie for this entirely. For me, it was inescapable that we are drawn to see symbolism in the contrasting embraces. Such a comparison hits you in the gut.
Thanks,Thomas. :) Yes,I also think that the juxtaposition of two such different scenes was deliberate;by them,we can see the progressive journey to a point of no-return in their relationship, in that their inner struggle between their feelings and the answer each one of them were giving ,had to explode.The difference between all the hopes,illusions and freedom feeling they had in their private paradise up in BBM-reflected in glances,embraces ,faces and general behaviour-and the end of a project of living hold by Jack-and secretly by Ennis-during so many years...Hence,for me it's a clear symbolism in the last image of Ennis Jack sees,both in dozy embrace scene and the confrontation one: free,strong and full with love,hopes and illusions,running in a quick horse first; caged in an old truck that runs slowly,as their emotions are caged into their fears,aged and hopeless,in the last scene.
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Thanks,Thomas. :) Yes,I also think that the juxtaposition of two such different scenes was deliberate;by them,we can see the progressive journey to a point of no-return in their relationship, in that their inner struggle between their feelings and the answer each one of them were giving ,had to explode.The difference between all the hopes,illusions and freedom feeling they had in their private paradise up in BBM-reflected in glances,embraces ,faces and general behaviour-and the end of a project of living hold by Jack-and secretly by Ennis-during so many years...Hence,for me it's a clear symbolism in the last image of Ennis Jack sees,both in dozy embrace scene and the confrontation one: free,strong and full with love,hopes and illusions,running in a quick horse first; caged in an old truck that runs slowly,as their emotions are caged into their fears,aged and hopeless,in the last scene.
Yes, we should not forget that this juxtaposition is seen through Jacjk's eyes. The symbolism must have been deeply personal for him. And yest, it must be a comfort to us that the short story implies that perhaps nothing had really changed between the Dozy Embrace and that final desperate huddle. I know that some of us would see this lack of change as a terrible loss, but think of what had been maintained for almost 20 years. I think Jack's dream of love is condensed in that beautiful though imperfect Dozy embrace. The fact that he remembers it after nearly 20 years at the time of desperation and see that nothing had changed that much should console us in that the dream has remained largely intact, even if all hope had passed.
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Yes, we should not forget that this juxtaposition is seen through Jacjk's eyes. The symbolism must have been deeply personal for him. And yest, it must be a comfort to us that the short story implies that perhaps nothing had really changed between the Dozy Embrace and that final desperate huddle. I know that some of us would see this lack of change as a terrible loss, but think of what had been maintained for almost 20 years. I think Jack's dream of love is condensed in that beautiful though imperfect Dozy embrace. The fact that he remembers it after nearly 20 years at the time of desperation and see that nothing had changed that much should console us in that the dream has remained largely intact, even if all hope had passed.
If I've understood well enough what you mean,I must say I don't see it in the same way than you.I mean,we see through Jack eyes how their relationship has changed from one plenty of illusions and hopes to another that has no possibility of recovering them,no way.For me the fact that he remembers the Dozy embrace reveals precisely that everything has changed much more than he can stand;it's the comparison between happy times and despaired,hopeless times he was living in that moment.Perhaps the dream remained intact in his mind and soul-perhaps also in Ennis´but in a much unconscious way-because sometimes a dream is the only thing we can hold on to when reality is too hard.And this hard reality of their relationship doesn't console me too much as a spectator of a progressive destruction of a hope,of a dream,although not of a love...
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Interesting discussion tpe & mpj. Heavy symbolism here no matter how you see it with these embraces. It occured to me in reading your posts about the two embraces of how they exactly mirror the shirts. Coincidence?
Dozy Embrace: Ennis embraces Jack.
Final Embrace: Jack embraces Ennis.
Shirts in Jack's closet: Jack's embraces Ennis's
Shirts in Ennis's closet: Ennis's embraces Jack's.
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If I've understood well enough what you mean,I must say I don't see it in the same way than you.I mean,we see through Jack eyes how their relationship has changed from one plenty of illusions and hopes to another that has no possibility of recovering them,no way.For me the fact that he remembers the Dozy embrace reveals precisely that everything has changed much more than he can stand;it's the comparison between happy times and despaired,hopeless times he was living in that moment.Perhaps the dream remained intact in his mind and soul-perhaps also in Ennis´but in a much unconscious way-because sometimes a dream is the only thing we can hold on to when reality is too hard.And this hard reality of their relationship doesn't console me too much as a spectator of a progressive destruction of a hope,of a dream,although not of a love...
Interesting MPJ. I understand what you say here and cannot argue that it is unlikely. I must admit that I did feel the same way about this early on, and I believe many critics and commentators do agree with you. But I just felt after a while that the remembrance of the Dozy Embrace acted as a sort of comfort to Jack at that dark hour when all was lost -- reminding him that although they have not gone very far beyond what they had achieved in BBM, the love they shared -- imperfect though it may be -- remained intact.
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Interesting discussion tpe & mpj. Heavy symbolism here no matter how you see it with these embraces. It occured to me in reading your posts about the two embraces of how they exactly mirror the shirts. Coincidence?
Dozy Embrace: Ennis embraces Jack.
Final Embrace: Jack embraces Ennis.
Shirts in Jack's closet: Jack's embraces Ennis's
Shirts in Ennis's closet: Ennis's embraces Jack's.
I agree with these dichotomies, jackster. But I like the way you juxtapose the first pair with the final pair. I do think that the sense of give and take in the 2 scenes you refer to are deliberate, as if to remind us that their lives served as mirrors of the other. There is so much mirroring used in the film -- probably much more so than in the original ss. It is surely a poetic device that served the film version very beautifully.
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. . . There is so much mirroring used in the film -- probably much more so than in the original ss. It is surely a poetic device that served the film version very beautifully.
Yes, I've thought that the movies' use of that mirroring techniques was in large part due to Ang and his "eastern" or Oriental background. I'm not sure there's much rationality to my thinking here, :s) but it seems that way to me. The whole yin/yang way of looking at the world.
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Yes, I've thought that the movies' use of that mirroring techniques was in large part due to Ang and his "eastern" or Oriental background. I'm not sure there's much rationality to my thinking here, :s) but it seems that way to me. The whole yin/yang way of looking at the world.
Exactly. It is a very Buddhist thing -- what is called "The Great Mirror", which implies both dynamics, transcience, duality, and illusion, as well as enlightenment and awakening.
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Yes, I've thought that the movies' use of that mirroring techniques was in large part due to Ang and his "eastern" or Oriental background. I'm not sure there's much rationality to my thinking here, :s) but it seems that way to me. The whole yin/yang way of looking at the world.
Beautiful examples,Jackster.In the end,it's what both of them are for each other and in their respective way of seeing and living life; yin/yang.Different but complementaries.
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Another double meaning that it's more an scene of observation,happens when Jack is complaining about the kind of job he must do in the mountain.When he ends by saying that Aguirre has no right to make them do something against the law,we see an Ennis close shoot; he seems worried about what Jack is saying in that very moment,looking at the space as if he's thinking about it for a second.
I've always wondered why they show him in this way then,and if maybe what he's thinking about is his regret of be making something illegal.But I'm not referring only to Aguirre's orders; maybe he's already fighting against his own illegal "something"?.I mean,he's already feeling something strange inside him for Jack,something "against the rules and the law";the kind of law his father had showed him how hard could be with these who dared to break it...Could it be so?. :)
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Another double meaning that it's more an scene of observation,happens when Jack is complaining about the kind of job he must do in the mountain.When he ends by saying that Aguirre has no right to make them do something against the law,we see an Ennis close shoot; he seems worried about what Jack is saying in that very moment,looking at the space as if he's thinking about it for a second.
I've always wondered why they show him in this way then,and if maybe what he's thinking about is his regret of be making something illegal.But I'm not referring only to Aguirre's orders; maybe he's already fighting against his own illegal "something"?.I mean,he's already feeling something strange inside him for Jack,something "against the rules and the law";the kind of law his father had showed him how hard could be with these who dared to break it...Could it be so?. :)
Swooping in this thread real fast here. I have to say I agree that it's possible. I liked the mixed emotion reaction Ennis had in this scene. And then he was ever willing to trade duties with Jack, and I noticed it was very auto-pilot of him. I think while he was thinking of those deeper 'laws', he was then systematically speaking in accord to how the stoic inside him would:
I'd be happy to switch with you = him brushing off the feelings he'd been developing for Jack by not reading into anything but the practical laws at hand of getting the boring job done.
Had he questioned Jack further I think he would have become a world less comfortable, and apt to offend Jack...
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I agree with you, MPJ, and I love orangetruck's overlay to what you said: that Ennis was perhaps thinking about "deeper laws" that were about to be broken.
Perhaps the offer of switching with Jack was also a tacit way of esposing his increasing affection for Jack, no? And Jacvk's knowing smile as he rode off told me that Jack tacitly understood.
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I agree with you, MPJ, and I love orangetruck's overlay to what you said: that Ennis was perhaps thinking about "deeper laws" that were about to be broken.
Perhaps the offer of switching with Jack was also a tacit way of esposing his increasing affection for Jack, no? And Jacvk's knowing smile as he rode off told me that Jack tacitly understood.
Of course,offering himself to switch roles with Jack was due to his increasing affection for him;the same than ordering soup,the killing of the elk for not keep on eating beans...Ennis knew fairly way that all these facts weren´t only a mere way of helping themselves and show friendship for someone you get on well with...I think that for this reason he was thoughtful by hearing this words "...against the law" because he knew he was breaking social rules only for feeling this for his fellow.More than the illegal tasks Aguirre ordered them to do,fairly more...What I don't know is if this Jack's smile shows that he knew this inner struggle,or only that he realised Ennis was feeling a progressive approchment to him only in a friendly way.
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Of course,offering himself to switch roles with Jack was due to his increasing affection for him;the same than ordering soup,the killing of the elk for not keep on eating beans...Ennis knew fairly way that all these facts weren´t only a mere way of helping themselves and show friendship for someone you get on well with...I think that for this reason he was thoughtful by hearing this words "...against the law" because he knew he was breaking social rules only for feeling this for his fellow.More than the illegal tasks Aguirre ordered them to do,fairly more...What I don't know is if this Jack's smile shows that he knew this inner struggle,or only that he realised Ennis was feeling a progressive approchment to him only in a friendly way.
I think it was the latter. I don't know whether at this point, Jack knew about the depth of Ennis's inner struggles...
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I think it was the latter. I don't know whether at this point, Jack knew about the depth of Ennis's inner struggles...
Or perhaps he smiled because he thought he was in the right way to obtain a greater closeness with Ennis;as a matter of fact,all his reactions and behaviours went in this direction from the very moment he met him because it was also the very moment he liked him.
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I agree with you, MPJ, and I love orangetruck's overlay to what you said: that Ennis was perhaps thinking about "deeper laws" that were about to be broken.
Perhaps the offer of switching with Jack was also a tacit way of esposing his increasing affection for Jack, no? And Jacvk's knowing smile as he rode off told me that Jack tacitly understood.
Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?
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Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?
I just wanna say that your words are totaly beautiful and I believe in everthing you said. ^f^
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Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?
I hope you Brokies don't mind that I post this link to a previous editing project here. Given the content/title of the video I thought it would be suitable to the concept of these recent messages. I think the percussion is incredible and says something:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef6Y_i_gzZM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef6Y_i_gzZM)
:f)
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Double meanings? How bout the reunion scene's " Jack F-kin Twist"....self explainatory imo.
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Double meanings? How bout the reunion scene's " Jack F-kin Twist"....self explainatory imo.
Well,I can't speak here because I don't know the complete meaning of the word "f@#$ng" applied to a person.I guess it's not the same than when we apply it in Spanish. ??? Here we could say someone is mocky,bad,intelligent but in the most evil meaning...the same that "jodido"-the equivalent-means also"to be in very bad state".Here Ennis could mean implicitly that Jack has been mean or bad because he had make him suffering with his absence.
The correspondent verb to this adjective has another meaning,however,in rapport with what both of them wanted to do as soon as they saw each other. ^-^
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It's a very interesting word, but at that point, I don't think Ennis thought Jack had a mean or evil bone in his body. American slang has givin many meanings to it also. here it could be a noun, verb, adverb, and adjective. In this case, i was thinking more along the lines of your last sentence . "Jack F-ckin Twist" could be a name, title or simply a description. A group of words that expresses a complete thought. A complete sentence from Ennis, in just one way he sees Jack?
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Or perhaps he smiled because he thought he was in the right way to obtain a greater closeness with Ennis;as a matter of fact,all his reactions and behaviours went in this direction from the very moment he met him because it was also the very moment he liked him.
Yes, perhaps even that smile had a double meaning -- that Jack was pleased that he no longer had to go up to the sheep, and that Jack was pleased that everything was going as "planned"...
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Tpe, mpj, I really enjoy where you're going with this. It's difficult for me not to figure both aspects of friendship and something deeper; I keep getting the stubborn image of the mountain that insists both feelings are married.
I've always loved yin/yang's symbolism, and here I like to think of it being partially caged inside them (especially Ennis) and the rest being the outside world. Friendship must have been the limit that Ennis saw to which he could ever allow regarding "yang" (outside). Inside was another story. But one doesn't exist without the other; one man didn't exist without the other - hence Ennis feeling absolutely empty at the end. This said, from the moment they met I think their communication was through clangs and bangs of exterior armor, and what was inside them both were incoherent, repetitive steel drums beating, banging in a mezmerizing magnetic pull towards that huge phenomenal reckoner known as the Mountain.
They felt the complimentary (if not only) love radiating from each other, words only obstacles..?
Thanks orangetruck. The complementarity between Ennis and Jack do seem to shadow the host of double meanings we have discussed in this film, no?
As for the "inside" and "outside" dichotomy, I would venture to observe that these also are open to a double meaning interpretation. For example, you seem to indicate that the "outside" can be interpreted in terms of the outside world, or the "other" (in this case, Jack, I would assume.)
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It's a very interesting word, but at that point, I don't think Ennis thought Jack had a mean or evil bone in his body. American slang has givin many meanings to it also. here it could be a noun, verb, adverb, and adjective. In this case, i was thinking more along the lines of your last sentence . "Jack F-ckin Twist" could be a name, title or simply a description. A group of words that expresses a complete thought. A complete sentence from Ennis, in just one way he sees Jack?
I had thought that the term was used specifically as a mark of affection. But perhaps I simply missed the obvious...
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Thanks orangetruck. The complementarity between Ennis and Jack do seem to shadow the host of double meanings we have discussed in this film, no?
As for the "inside" and "outside" dichotomy, I would venture to observe that these also are open to a double meaning interpretation. For example, you seem to indicate that the "outside" can be interpreted in terms of the outside world, or the "other" (in this case, Jack, I would assume.)
Ye'sir! :c)
Very complimentary indeed. Ennis/Jack - Yin/Yang.
Earlier on I had mostly seen Jack as the Yin to Ennis, very much what he needed, but saw Ennis as an object for Jack to crave; underneath this pretentious idea I had of them did sit the full Y/Y idea, however. It's just that it was very easily foreshadowed by Ennis' darkened need to both be introduced and then given love. Perhaps Jack had too much to figure out to realize he needed Ennis the way he was. Had he given up trying to 'fix' the problem, though, he may have been minimized to seeing the outright symbol - to seeing black and white. And that is where I find the catch 22. In my mind both boys clearly needed steering from the black and white they'd grown up in..
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Ye'sir! :c)
Very complimentary indeed. Ennis/Jack - Yin/Yang.
Earlier on I had mostly seen Jack as the Yin to Ennis, very much what he needed, but saw Ennis as an object for Jack to crave; underneath this pretentious idea I had of them did sit the full Y/Y idea, however. It's just that it was very easily foreshadowed by Ennis' darkened need to both be introduced and then given love. Perhaps Jack had too much to figure out to realize he needed Ennis the way he was. Had he given up trying to 'fix' the problem, though, he may have been minimized to seeing the outright symbol - to seeing black and white. And that is where I find the catch 22. In my mind both boys clearly needed steering from the black and white they'd grown up in..
Well, IMO, your idea was certainly mirrored in so many details in the film. And yes, the choice of colors (dark for Jack, light for Ennis) did seem to support the yin/yang analogy.
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I suppose you've already spoken about this scene and its meaning before,but I'm going to "resuscitate" the subject if something new can be said...:The dead sheep.It can have the initial meaning of a kind of moral,something like this:- Look what happens when you leave your duties to succumb to carnal wishes . But it results a too simple and "little bourgeois" point of view that I can't believe Ang Lee was willing to remark... %(
It could be also a way of reflecting the loss of the innocence and the virginity-blood works better in woman's case to reflect this,however...-.Also,as the sheep is ripped,that Ennis is seeing himself in this way; as showing his innest feelings and way of being,even before himself,he has nothing to hide even if he tries...And,the same than the sheep is being "given to sacrifice" somehow,Ennis was given to the sacrifice of his fears and his innocence;while the animal was being eaten physically by the coyote,he was being "devoured",both physically and emotionally speaking,by love-and please,let erotic questions aside... ;D -.
It has also been said that maybe it could be a-far-warning of Jack's death; their relationship begins with something of their environment that becomes dead-the sheep-and ends with Jack becoming dead by something of their environment too.What's your opinion?
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I suppose you've already spoken about this scene and its meaning before,but I'm going to "resuscitate" the subject if something new can be said...:The dead sheep.It can have the initial meaning of a kind of moral,something like this:- Look what happens when you leave your duties to succumb to carnal wishes . But it results a too simple and "little bourgeois" point of view that I can't believe Ang Lee was willing to remark... %(
It could be also a way of reflecting the loss of the innocence and the virginity-blood works better in woman's case to reflect this,however...-.Also,as the sheep is ripped,that Ennis is seeing himself in this way; as showing his innest feelings and way of being,even before himself,he has nothing to hide even if he tries...And,the same than the sheep is being "given to sacrifice" somehow,Ennis was given to the sacrifice of his fears and his innocence;while the animal was being eaten physically by the coyote,he was being "devoured",both physically and emotionally speaking,by love-and please,let erotic questions aside... ;D -.
It has also been said that maybe it could be a-far-warning of Jack's death; their relationship begins with something of their environment that becomes dead-the sheep-and ends with Jack becoming dead by something of their environment too.What's your opinion?
Thanks you so much MPJ. You know, this is one of my favorite symbolic scenes in the movie, and feel that this is one of the direct classical allusions in the film. I find rich meaning in this "dead sheep" scene, and what you say here only adds greater dimension to how I see it.
I believe there is an entire thread devoted to this scene, it's meaning, and symbolism. Have you read it? If you can't find it, I will be happy to search it for you...
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Thanks you so much MPJ. You know, this is one of my favorite symbolic scenes in the movie, and feel that this is one of the direct classical allusions in the film. I find rich meaning in this "dead sheep" scene, and what you say here only adds greater dimension to how I see it.
I believe there is an entire thread devoted to this scene, it's meaning, and symbolism. Have you read it? If you can't find it, I will be happy to search it for you...
Thank you Thomas; I´ll look for it and,if I don´t find it,I´ll be very grateful to your help. :)
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Thanks you so much MPJ. You know, this is one of my favorite symbolic scenes in the movie, and feel that this is one of the direct classical allusions in the film. I find rich meaning in this "dead sheep" scene, and what you say here only adds greater dimension to how I see it.
I believe there is an entire thread devoted to this scene, it's meaning, and symbolism. Have you read it? If you can't find it, I will be happy to search it for you...
Indeed, mpj and tpe, I have felt the same about this double meaning. It's full of insight and feeling:
One little image and one brief expression can say so much. And here, it does, and unravels over the whole story. It's like that sheep's blood is spread thin over all (mis)communications between Jack and Ennis, etc.
Ennis put a ghostly hand in that open sheep and fingerpainted his love for Jack over 20 years, like prepubescent graffiti. His love making would always be so animalistic and fearful and the most passionate thing in his life, I think; it's because that sheep was not only foreshadowing that 20 year love affair. It was also Ennis' intersection of Heaven and Hell, of Brokeback and Earl. From here on out he is a young man madly in love, attracted to what he both needed and couldn't stand despite of his claiming to have to.
Four years later, holding the post card, you see under his fingernails the dark, dried crimson (did he ever wash his hands of the sheep -- of Jack?). Another handful of years later, holding the "Deceased" postcard, you see his dirty thumbnail again as it presses lightly into an item of his love.
The feelings and insights MPJ notes, of Ennis at the sheep go a long way. Ennis did feel his love rip open, and he also saw the guts were missing. It reminds me of the alley seen when he's 'puking up his guts'; however, nothing comes out. Instead, Jack had taken everything from Ennis including the insides that now belonged to their relationship. - - heart, soul, *cough*... gag reflex.
Ennis sitting from afar in that field of grass, seeing Jack was his open heart, and his reaction to it: Having to let Jack go that summer, the punch, the blood. Every meeting with Jack was his brilliant picture of love and bloody consequence.
Among the purposes of the sheep, the one thing Ennis forgot to do was carry Jack away from death. In the end when Jack had died, he carried his shirt.
Like the 'puppy' that stood howling for the open sheep, Ennis could have stood by Jack.
I'll stand by you, Jack
But then if Ennis stopped running from his fears, this probably wouldn't be the epic story it is.
It's befitting of Ennis to accept the fate that was ripped open before him, that had been thrown into a ditch 10 years earlier in his life. He and his patterns. %(
Sorry I'm on my way to work and strayed off there. In other words though, I'm with you both that this topic is very, very intriguing. ???
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Indeed, mpj and tpe, I have felt the same about this double meaning. It's full of insight and feeling:
One little image and one brief expression can say so much. And here, it does, and unravels over the whole story. It's like that sheep's blood is spread thin over all (mis)communications between Jack and Ennis, etc.
Ennis put a ghostly hand in that open sheep and fingerpainted his love for Jack over 20 years, like prepubescent graffiti. His love making would always be so animalistic and fearful and the most passionate thing in his life, I think; it's because that sheep was not only foreshadowing that 20 year love affair. It was also Ennis' intersection of Heaven and Hell, of Brokeback and Earl. From here on out he is a young man madly in love, attracted to what he both needed and couldn't stand despite of his claiming to have to.
Four years later, holding the post card, you see under his fingernails the dark, dried crimson (did he ever wash his hands of the sheep -- of Jack?). Another handful of years later, holding the "Deceased" postcard, you see his dirty thumbnail again as it presses lightly into an item of his love.
The feelings and insights MPJ notes, of Ennis at the sheep go a long way. Ennis did feel his love rip open, and he also saw the guts were missing. It reminds me of the alley seen when he's 'puking up his guts'; however, nothing comes out. Instead, Jack had taken everything from Ennis including the insides that now belonged to their relationship. - - heart, soul, *cough*... gag reflex.
Ennis sitting from afar in that field of grass, seeing Jack was his open heart, and his reaction to it: Having to let Jack go that summer, the punch, the blood. Every meeting with Jack was his brilliant picture of love and bloody consequence.
Among the purposes of the sheep, the one thing Ennis forgot to do was carry Jack away from death. In the end when Jack had died, he carried his shirt.
Like the 'puppy' that stood howling for the open sheep, Ennis could have stood by Jack.
I'll stand by you, Jack
But then if Ennis stopped running from his fears, this probably wouldn't be the epic story it is.
It's befitting of Ennis to accept the fate that was ripped open before him, that had been thrown into a ditch 10 years earlier in his life. He and his patterns. %(
Sorry I'm on my way to work and strayed off there. In other words though, I'm with you both that this topic is very, very intriguing. ???
Wow. I love the fingerpainting image you call up, orangetruck. It is very visceral. For some reason, if also calls to mind the blood-sprinkling command in Exodus.
And you bring a good point that it was a point of intersection for Ennis. I did feel that it was strategically placed immediately after the FNIT for good reason. It signalled that a crossing point has been reached for Ennis. The sheep is both prophetic and revealing of Ennis's current state of mind.
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Justin,very interesting the parallelism between the puppy stand for the open sheep and Ennis,who must have stood by Jack...I see it in another way,similar however: the same than he must have stand near the sheep to avoid them dangers of their environment, must he have stand by Jack,in order to protect him against their own environmental dangers?.The coyote that put a hint of tragedy after their first night together in BBM,can symbolise also the other "human coyotes" who put an end to their paradise after BBM?.I agree,Thomas,in that the dead sheep can be prophetical in that something has changed inside Ennis,but he's somehow united to his world,that can be a menace against them also.And perhaps of Jack's own death.
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Thanks MPJ. I do believe that it did prefigure Jack's death, although at the moment, it did reflect a change within Ennis, and prefigured a gut-wrenching inner conflict.
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TPE...I just started this thread earlier today, and am tearing up thinking about what you said about Jack's mom. "You're welcome to go up there if you want" -meaning, you'll see how much Jack loved you. It never hit me before today. I feel I got gut punched. :\'( I love Jack's mom, and am sure she would've given Ennis the ashes if it had been up to her.
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TPE...I just started this thread earlier today, and am tearing up thinking about what you said about Jack's mom. " you're welcome to go up there if you want" b]-meaning, you'll see how much Jack loved you. It never hit me before today :\'
Hello atalley. Your reminding me of that old post also affects me right now. But I do think that it the mother seemed to have encouraged him to go up there -- all alone! I do feel that she had known all along what he would find up there, and her nod and quiet knowing smile when he comes down bringing the shirts -- that tell sit all for me.
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Hello atalley. Your reminding me of that old post also affects me right now. But I do think that it the mother seemed to have encouraged him to go up there -- all alone! I do feel that she had known all along what he would find up there, and her nod and quiet knowing smile when he comes down bringing the shirts -- that tell sit all for me.
Totally agree!!!
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Totally agree!!!
Agreed, here come the emotions. I feel the girth of her expression in my throat which is like the hallway her voice echoes in. Then it's Ennis' steps up the stairs that keep a steady acidic pounding in my chest. It's just too much to capture all of the quiet sentiment in the thought of Ma Twist telling him he's welcome to go on up there. Her eyes and nod; right there it is.
I'm really with you on this Thomas, Tammy and atalley. As Ennis is about to get hit with how much he misses Jack and he had missed Ennis, we miss it/him/them. It's hard to swallow..
:ghug:
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Hello atalley. Your reminding me of that old post also affects me right now. But I do think that it the mother seemed to have encouraged him to go up there -- all alone! I do feel that she had known all along what he would find up there, and her nod and quiet knowing smile when he comes down bringing the shirts -- that tell sit all for me.
Oh yes, this is so beautiful and telling. Mom sending Ennis up there, but also, as you said, her "knowing look" when he comes down with the shirts. (Interesting, too, that he had no question about taking them.) I just love this development, that Ennis and Jack's mom met. A very meaningful experience for both of them. And I would love to think that they did indeed see each other again.
kathy
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Thanks Tammy, OT, and kathy. I did find it intriguing that the mother pauses a bit before she puts the shirts in the paper bag -- did any of you also seem to notice this?
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Thanks Tammy, OT, and kathy. I did find it intriguing that the mother pauses a bit before she puts the shirts in the paper bag -- did any of you also seem to notice this?
Yeah, most of this pause I saw in her eyes. Something about them not allowing her stifled words to go unheard. If I were to pull out of that trance, I would say the pause there would be many emotional things not excluding to rather hold Ennis' hand or embrace him..
Not mentioning the contents of the bag or the ideas she perhaps was instilling into him with her body language and those eyes..
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Or perhaps she also feared that a slight mention of the shirts would get John Twist going and make him refuse Ennis even this...
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Or perhaps she also feared that a slight mention of the shirts would get John Twist going and make him refuse Ennis even this...
Yeah I think so.
I like to think what Ma Twist delivered in the second of paused stare, Ennis swallowed with that soft tuck of his lip. Anything outside of their shared field of vision, their shared and crying perspective of love and having lost Jack, was fair game to Mr. Twist. The whole house seemed to wheep inside his captivity. I remember his eyes, they looked spooky as if they were made of glass and were always about to break when he would blink. Best not to make him even wince. That old bastard.
That Jack held onto him so to speak, and looked up to him at all as a father is inspired, imo. There is also the faint tick of love here, not to mention Jack's definition of it upstairs; it's a study of the many kinds of love though, and ultimately that it is a force of nature.
I know this isn't exactly a double meaning, but I want to mention something cinematic that I picked up on consciously earlier. I had always been moved by it, but didn't recognize how:
After the reunion kiss and the cliff jump, under the moon Ennis has mentioned Earl. Jack rests the back of his hand on Ennis' face. In the next shot, we see the back of Ennis' head and hat and Jack's profile. And there is the view of the flowing river whiskey spring between them. The water is flowing from Jack to Ennis as Jack leans in to nudge Ennis with his hand. And it just struck me as symbolic. And maybe it's been brought up before, I don't know. But the love is a force of nature energy seems to be pouring from Brokeback and echoing simultaneously through Jack's actions towards Ennis. And of course this echoes and echoes echoes echoes ...
over time.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foxoniensis-art.com%2Fcaps%2Fbrokeback%2Fbrokeback_611.jpg&hash=fcc89d520d313f1180f0e02d7e221b8a7095bd8d)
Until it freezes in a postcard in a closet, where it becomes Ennis' turn to radiate this love freely.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foxoniensis-art.com%2Fcaps%2Fbrokeback%2Fbrokeback_974.jpg&hash=f9cec7d9b163ae6879a11a16e3a9f9da05ebaaba)
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OMG, that's just beautiful! :\'(
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OMG, that's just beautiful! :\'(
:ghug:
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Very lovely, roangetruck. Perhaps the final nudge on the BBM postcard does carry a double meaning, as you suggest here.
There is another scene where I suspect that a double menaing could be overlaid: the scene in the closet, when Ennis takes the shirts in his arms. Wasn't there a moment in that scene where he raises one of the arms of the shirt and brings it close to his face? Could there be some symbol here? What was Ennis's motivation for doing this? I had thought that it was a stylized embrace...
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Very lovely, roangetruck. Perhaps the final nudge on the BBM postcard does carry a double meaning, as you suggest here.
There is another scene where I suspect that a double menaing could be overlaid: the scene in the closet, when Ennis takes the shirts in his arms. Wasn't there a moment in that scene where he raises one of the arms of the shirt and brings it close to his face? Could there be some symbol here? What was Ennis's motivation for doing this? I had thought that it was a stylized embrace...
Being as the shirts are a symbol of their love,a kind of substitute of the dead lover that is embracing and protecting Ennis forever by being above his own shirt; maybe he sees in it the way to tell Jack all what he hadn't told before,with words-the inaudible "I love you"-and with gestures-a need to feel,even in his wish,his touch,his warmth,in himself.
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Being as the shirts are a symbol of their love,a kind of substitute of the dead lover that is embracing and protecting Ennis forever by being above his own shirt; maybe he sees in it the way to tell Jack all what he hadn't told before,with words-the inaudible "I love you"-and with gestures-a need to feel,even in his wish,his touch,his warmth,in himself.
Thank you so much for saying this so beautifully MPJ. I am so on the verge of tears re-living this scene. So shockingly devastating it brings me to tears. I also thank Heath Ledger for bringing this expression of loss of love to us. My God, He deserved the Oscar for this scene alone . :\'(
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Thank you so much for saying this so beautifully MPJ. I am so on the verge of tears re-living this scene. So shockingly devastating it brings me to tears. I also thank Heath Ledger for bringing this expression of loss of love to us. My God, He deserved the Oscar for this scene alone . :\'(
:t) to you,Aintfoolin...Of course,he deserved the Oscar to bring Ennis inner struggle to us and making us understand.And for being so great in this painful scene.Only political reasons and a bad understood moral sense avoided him to win,what's unfair,but that's life¡
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:t) to you,Aintfoolin...Of course,he deserved the Oscar to bring Ennis inner struggle to us and making us understand.And for being so great in this painful scene.Only political reasons and a bad understood moral sense avoided him to win,what's unfair,but that's life¡
Yes I think, even if only subconsciously, Ennis was fully 'receiving' the love that Jack had preserved in the shirts, right there in the closet scene in Jack's old bedroom. Strange thing calling it old in the name of their love, and in the fact that he kept that room the way it was during his younger years. The essense of him and Jack was in those shirts and, as if they were both on the mountain in the dozy embrace, Ennis' reflex is to take Jack in his arms. For he was certainly there, Ennis was determined to smell a trace of him. There just couldn't be any other possibility. 'Least not one that Ennis could bear.
Everytime I see him slowly walk out of that house and towards the truck, I feel that he's not accepted it yet and that he's nearly paralyzed with the anticipation of a better answer than death. Perhaps it would fall from that courageous white and blue sky covering that ghostly white house. I get a lot of feeling from the way he almost staggers back to the truck which we only see the back window and truckbed of. And the reflection of that sky in that window. There's a backwards motion starting here, and then he travels back to his place, going down the other way on a road similar to the beginning of the story. This part always makes me think: He has reached the end of his journey to love and is leaving with the suvenirs that will ensure he's a changed man but more importantly, a man who can communicate with an open heart -- no longer a stoic.
Like with his natural tendency to bring the sleeve near and hold onto the shirts and inhale them like a runt that's drawn to the heartbeat of the mother cat; only it's got a paradoxal affect when the heart that's kept you alive is absent.
I do believe his inhaling what wasn't there is his actually putting Jack's heart into his. And we can get a display of this metaphor when we see that he's put Jack's shirt inside his own later on before he shuts the closet door to let the wind outside the window blow freely over what's grown long and wild.
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Yes I think, even if only subconsciously, Ennis was fully 'receiving' the love that Jack had preserved in the shirts, right there in the closet scene in Jack's old bedroom. Strange thing calling it old in the name of their love, and in the fact that he kept that room the way it was during his younger years. The essense of him and Jack was in those shirts and, as if they were both on the mountain in the dozy embrace, Ennis' reflex is to take Jack in his arms. For he was certainly there, Ennis was determined to smell a trace of him. There just couldn't be any other possibility. 'Least not one that Ennis could bear.
Everytime I see him slowly walk out of that house and towards the truck, I feel that he's not accepted it yet and that he's nearly paralyzed with the anticipation of a better answer than death. Perhaps it would fall from that courageous white and blue sky covering that ghostly white house. I get a lot of feeling from the way he almost staggers back to the truck which we only see the back window and truckbed of. And the reflection of that sky in that window. There's a backwards motion starting here, and then he travels back to his place, going down the other way on a road similar to the beginning of the story. This part always makes me think: He has reached the end of his journey to love and is leaving with the suvenirs that will ensure he's a changed man but more importantly, a man who can communicate with an open heart -- no longer a stoic.
Like with his natural tendency to bring the sleeve near and hold onto the shirts and inhale them like a runt that's drawn to the heartbeat of the mother cat; only it's got a paradoxal affect when the heart that's kept you alive is absent.
I do believe his inhaling what wasn't there is his actually putting Jack's heart into his. And we can get a display of this metaphor when we see that he's put Jack's shirt inside his own later on before he shuts the closet door to let the wind outside the window blow freely over what's grown long and wild.
I just have to reply to this excellent post OT. God ,the picture you paint is so raw. A loss so fresh ,and the total realization of what he knew before Jack's death and after finding those shirts. The sheer finality of death and the loss catapulted him headlong into the , presence of Jack. The moment when his very thought processes of the way he thought about his role in the relationship with Jack all came together.. What he wants most of all ,is for Jack to be there with him to take joy in his discovery. Their love changed him. Who else is there to share it with? or is more deserving of him to share it with? Jack was gone, ..or was he?
You say it so well when you speak to the natural instinct of Ennis to smell Jack, and to embrace him right there in that closet without the fear as you refer to the DE. . , the need to make it right again by connecting in some way real to him. Suddenly , reality hits him square in the chest. . This was an awakening imo. His whole life flashed before his eyes in those few moments .. He's finally gotten to the point where he knows where it did'nt matter who was right ,and who was wrong. The question of *who am I ? , really* has been answered in the most profound way and he only knows one thing, His precious lil darlin , sweet Jack had been stolen away like a thief in the night taking his heart and soul with him. A twist of fate. There was indeed "never enough time" never enough". If only he could have it all back for just a few seconds, long enough to tell Jack he loves him too and to stay forever.. For once to fix it for jack and himself., instead of standing it. That philoshphy went out the window when he knows that now there nothing left to fix anymore. Jack was saying he loved and needed Ennis all along , but he just refused to see it then. It took Jack's sad fate to open his heart to the rest of his life.
The shirts may be symbolic for Ennis of a forgivness from Jack and a forgivness of himself. The way he displayed the shirts in HIS closet has him embracing all that he and Jack have and will always have. Jack tells him thru these shirts that he no longer has anything to fear. " it's alright". In the end, still protecting Ennis. He swears from his now open heart ,that he will honor what Jack tried so diligently to show him. Jack left him his spirit of their love to have and hold, Ennis's response? to reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life.
Thank you OT for inspiration. :ghug: :c)
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I just have to reply to this excellent post OT. God ,the picture you paint is so raw. A loss so fresh ,and the total realization of what he knew before Jack's death and after finding those shirts. The sheer finality of death and the loss catapulted him headlong into the , presence of Jack. The moment when his very thought processes of the way he thought about his role in the relationship with Jack all came together.. What he wants most of all ,is for Jack to be there with him to take joy in his discovery. Their love changed him. Who else is there to share it with? or is more deserving of him to share it with? Jack was gone, ..or was he?
You say it so well when you speak to the natural instinct of Ennis to smell Jack, and to embrace him right there in that closet without the fear as you refer to the DE. . , the need to make it right again by connecting in some way real to him. Suddenly , reality hits him square in the chest. . This was an awakening imo. His whole life flashed before his eyes in those few moments .. He's finally gotten to the point where he knows where it did'nt matter who was right ,and who was wrong. The question of *who am I ? , really* has been answered in the most profound way and he only knows one thing, His precious lil darlin , sweet Jack had been stolen away like a thief in the night taking his heart and soul with him. A twist of fate. There was indeed "never enough time" never enough". If only he could have it all back for just a few seconds, long enough to tell Jack he loves him too and to stay forever.. For once to fix it for jack and himself., instead of standing it. That philoshphy went out the window when he knows that now there nothing left to fix anymore. Jack was saying he loved and needed Ennis all along , but he just refused to see it then. It took Jack's sad fate to open his heart to the rest of his life.
The shirts may be symbolic for Ennis of a forgivness from Jack and a forgivness of himself. The way he displayed the shirts in HIS closet has him embracing all that he and Jack have and will always have. Jack tells him thru these shirts that he no longer has anything to fear. " it's alright". In the end, still protecting Ennis. He swears from his now open heart ,that he will honor what Jack tried so diligently to show him. Jack left him his spirit of their love to have and hold, Ennis's response? to reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life.
Thank you OT for inspiration. :ghug: :c)
Thanks, AF. Your statement here is what really makes the shirts hard to swallow, both beautiful and depressing.
It's alright, now that you can stop hiding. The day that you stop running is the day that you arrive.
"Ennis' response? To reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life"
That hits me so hard: we think of the 20 year span when they would visit and visit each other to share a love that would never grow old, that would never reside anywhere really but between themselves and on the mountain. Now, as a last resort, and final destination (I can't STAND saying that and shouldn't have ^*) ) he has to share it with a quiet Jack. And despite his (playful) mockings of Jack's harmonica and sometimes boisterous love and ideas, Jack's voice still echoes in his ears. And he misses this voice which gave/gives him life.
I agree, he must yearn so achingly for even the thinnest slice of time which is so ruthless, to hold him and tell him what he has realized after losing the only person he fully loved:
Friend, I love you. :\'(
Likewise, thank you, AF :ghug:
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You say it so well when you speak to the natural instinct of Ennis to smell Jack, and to embrace him right there in that closet without the fear as you refer to the DE. . , the need to make it right again by connecting in some way real to him. Suddenly , reality hits him square in the chest. . This was an awakening imo. His whole life flashed before his eyes in those few moments .. He's finally gotten to the point where he knows where it did'nt matter who was right ,and who was wrong. The question of *who am I ? , really* has been answered in the most profound way and he only knows one thing, His precious lil darlin , sweet Jack had been stolen away like a thief in the night taking his heart and soul with him. A twist of fate. There was indeed "never enough time" never enough". If only he could have it all back for just a few seconds, long enough to tell Jack he loves him too and to stay forever.. For once to fix it for jack and himself., instead of standing it. That philoshphy went out the window when he knows that now there nothing left to fix anymore. Jack was saying he loved and needed Ennis all along , but he just refused to see it then. It took Jack's sad fate to open his heart to the rest of his life.
The shirts may be symbolic for Ennis of a forgivness from Jack and a forgivness of himself. The way he displayed the shirts in HIS closet has him embracing all that he and Jack have and will always have. Jack tells him thru these shirts that he no longer has anything to fear. " it's alright". In the end, still protecting Ennis. He swears from his now open heart ,that he will honor what Jack tried so diligently to show him. Jack left him his spirit of their love to have and hold, Ennis's response? to reverse the shirts, mirroring Jack's love for him.. I think Ennis visited and re-visited that closet very often to share milestones in his life.
That hits me so hard: we think of the 20 year span when they would visit and visit each other to share a love that would never grow old, that would never reside anywhere really but between themselves and on the mountain. Now, as a last resort, and final destination (I can't STAND saying that and shouldn't have ^*) ) he has to share it with a quiet Jack. And despite his (playful) mockings of Jack's harmonica and sometimes boisterous love and ideas, Jack's voice still echoes in his ears. And he misses this voice which gave/gives him life.
I agree, he must yearn so achingly for even the thinnest slice of time which is so ruthless, to hold him and tell him what he has realized after losing the only person he fully loved:
Friend, I love you. :\'(
I'm speechless here. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( Crying my eyes out.
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I did find it intriguing that the mother pauses a bit before she puts the shirts in the paper bag -- did any of you also seem to notice this?
I know y'all have moved on from this moment, but I just discovered this thread, and this scene always made my mind go into overdrive. I think the interaction between Ennis and Jack's mother both verbally and mainly through their silent looks, has so many hidden meanings. The pause before she puts the shirts in the bag brought up many different interpretations every time I saw this scene.
Two ideas that always come back to mind with that pause is 1, maybe she thought she understood that Ennis was taking a piece of Jack with him in way of the shirt because he couldn't have his ashes, but then as she is putting them in the bag, maybe she notices that there are 2 shirts, and realizes that there is a story behind these shirts, and wishes to know the story, her son's story, but the pause is the sad realization that she knows she can never ask; she can never truly know her son.
The 2nd, is quit simple. Maybe that pause while holding Jack's shirt before placing it in the bag is just her own quiet moment with all that is left of the Jack she loved. It's her own version of Ennis smelling the shirts and saying his goodbye to Jack, yet getting in one last scent of him. Sadly, she doesn't even get the simple luxury of having this moment alone. She can only stand there having this devastating moment quietly to herself, trying not to let her cold husband see her emotions. Hiding her emotions seemed to be something she had to do her whole life, just like Jack did. I think there is a sadness in her when Ennis silently confirms this one connection with her son, yet she needs to Cherish this connection all the same; it's all she has left.
P.S. OrangeT, the connection between the river/force of nature is unbelievable, thank you. It gave me chills.
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I know y'all have moved on from this moment, but I just discovered this thread, and this scene always made my mind go into overdrive. I think the interaction between Ennis and Jack's mother both verbally and mainly through their silent looks, has so many hidden meanings. The pause before she puts the shirts in the bag brought up many different interpretations every time I saw this scene.
Two ideas that always come back to mind with that pause is 1, maybe she thought she understood that Ennis was taking a piece of Jack with him in way of the shirt because he couldn't have his ashes, but then as she is putting them in the bag, maybe she notices that there are 2 shirts, and realizes that there is a story behind these shirts, and wishes to know the story, her son's story, but the pause is the sad realization that she knows she can never ask; she can never truly know her son.
The 2nd, is quit simple. Maybe that pause while holding Jack's shirt before placing it in the bag is just her own quiet moment with all that is left of the Jack she loved. It's her own version of Ennis smelling the shirts and saying his goodbye to Jack, yet getting in one last scent of him. Sadly, she doesn't even get the simple luxury of having this moment alone. She can only stand there having this devastating moment quietly to herself, trying not to let her cold husband see her emotions. Hiding her emotions seemed to be something she had to do her whole life, just like Jack did. I think there is a sadness in her when Ennis silently confirms this one connection with her son, yet she needs to Cherish this connection all the same; it's all she has left.
P.S. OrangeT, the connection between the river/force of nature is unbelievable, thank you. It gave me chills.
No problem. ^f^
And thank you for this post. I like how you brought out the feelings of Ma Twist regarding the similarities between her and Ennis and his connection with her son. She really must not have found it simple to hand those shirts over and see him (and Jack) off. :\'(
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Yes I think, even if only subconsciously, Ennis was fully 'receiving' the love that Jack had preserved in the shirts, right there in the closet scene in Jack's old bedroom. Strange thing calling it old in the name of their love, and in the fact that he kept that room the way it was during his younger years. The essense of him and Jack was in those shirts and, as if they were both on the mountain in the dozy embrace, Ennis' reflex is to take Jack in his arms. For he was certainly there, Ennis was determined to smell a trace of him. There just couldn't be any other possibility. 'Least not one that Ennis could bear.
Everytime I see him slowly walk out of that house and towards the truck, I feel that he's not accepted it yet and that he's nearly paralyzed with the anticipation of a better answer than death. Perhaps it would fall from that courageous white and blue sky covering that ghostly white house. I get a lot of feeling from the way he almost staggers back to the truck which we only see the back window and truckbed of. And the reflection of that sky in that window. There's a backwards motion starting here, and then he travels back to his place, going down the other way on a road similar to the beginning of the story. This part always makes me think: He has reached the end of his journey to love and is leaving with the suvenirs that will ensure he's a changed man but more importantly, a man who can communicate with an open heart -- no longer a stoic.
Like with his natural tendency to bring the sleeve near and hold onto the shirts and inhale them like a runt that's drawn to the heartbeat of the mother cat; only it's got a paradoxal affect when the heart that's kept you alive is absent.
I do believe his inhaling what wasn't there is his actually putting Jack's heart into his. And we can get a display of this metaphor when we see that he's put Jack's shirt inside his own later on before he shuts the closet door to let the wind outside the window blow freely over what's grown long and wild.
Wow.
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Being as the shirts are a symbol of their love,a kind of substitute of the dead lover that is embracing and protecting Ennis forever by being above his own shirt; maybe he sees in it the way to tell Jack all what he hadn't told before,with words-the inaudible "I love you"-and with gestures-a need to feel,even in his wish,his touch,his warmth,in himself.
I think that in that scene, the blue shirt literally becomes Jack.
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I'm speechless here. :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'( Crying my eyes out.
Same here. Thanks AF and orangetruck.
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I know y'all have moved on from this moment, but I just discovered this thread, and this scene always made my mind go into overdrive. I think the interaction between Ennis and Jack's mother both verbally and mainly through their silent looks, has so many hidden meanings. The pause before she puts the shirts in the bag brought up many different interpretations every time I saw this scene.
Two ideas that always come back to mind with that pause is 1, maybe she thought she understood that Ennis was taking a piece of Jack with him in way of the shirt because he couldn't have his ashes, but then as she is putting them in the bag, maybe she notices that there are 2 shirts, and realizes that there is a story behind these shirts, and wishes to know the story, her son's story, but the pause is the sad realization that she knows she can never ask; she can never truly know her son.
The 2nd, is quit simple. Maybe that pause while holding Jack's shirt before placing it in the bag is just her own quiet moment with all that is left of the Jack she loved. It's her own version of Ennis smelling the shirts and saying his goodbye to Jack, yet getting in one last scent of him. Sadly, she doesn't even get the simple luxury of having this moment alone. She can only stand there having this devastating moment quietly to herself, trying not to let her cold husband see her emotions. Hiding her emotions seemed to be something she had to do her whole life, just like Jack did. I think there is a sadness in her when Ennis silently confirms this one connection with her son, yet she needs to Cherish this connection all the same; it's all she has left.
P.S. OrangeT, the connection between the river/force of nature is unbelievable, thank you. It gave me chills.
Oh jessicat, I think you cam very close to one of the things I have long considered here: that the pasue expressed a little reluctance from Mrs. Twist to part with the shirts, perhaps because she knew their significance. But perhaps she realized that the shirts truly belonged to Ennis, in spite of how she felt...
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Oh jessicat, I think you cam very close to one of the things I have long considered here: that the pasue expressed a little reluctance from Mrs. Twist to part with the shirts, perhaps because she knew their significance. But perhaps she realized that the shirts truly belonged to Ennis, in spite of how she felt...
:) Yes Thomas, because she knew their signifificance to Jack. When we loose someone, the things that meant a lot to them, become so much more important to us then the things that we personally cared about "before".
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Oh jessicat, I think you cam very close to one of the things I have long considered here: that the pasue expressed a little reluctance from Mrs. Twist to part with the shirts, perhaps because she knew their significance. But perhaps she realized that the shirts truly belonged to Ennis, in spite of how she felt...
I can definitely see this.. Good point. Just very hard to wrap a finger around. Ennis making a 'new friend' or having someone that understands or to talk with just loves to mock my idea of that ultimate relationship known as Ennis and Jack; the inability to bring that back. :\'(
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I can definitely see this.. Good point. Just very hard to wrap a finger around. Ennis making a 'new friend' or having someone that understands or to talk with just loves to mock my idea of that ultimate relationship known as Ennis and Jack; the inability to bring that back. :\'(
I agree OrangeT, I don't think Ennis could ever find someone with such a connection as he had with Jack, for many reasons, 2 of which are the ideas that we never truly love again as much as our first love, and also it's hard to compete with the ability to love we have as teenagers when we are still capable of the fantasy of perfection is others. But I also just believe that they were soulmates, if there is such a thing.
But I think that was were the kindness from Jack's mother came from, I think she felt a true happiness that her son had felt such a connection with someone, even with it's problems; I don't believe she ever had that herself. I really felt like she wanted to talk to Ennis more. When he is leaving and she asks him to visit them again, I really felt she meant this. I really feel that, had Jack's dad not had been home at the time of Ennis' visit, this scene could have been so different.
I really wonder if she would have pressed Ennis to find out more about her own son. When she asks him to come back some time, I always imagined him coming back after the eventual death of Jack's father, and Ennis taking Jack's, then elder, mother home with him to care for her; as Jack would have done.
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I agree OrangeT, I don't think Ennis could ever find someone with such a connection as he had with Jack, for many reasons, 2 of which are the ideas that we never truly love again as much as our first love, and also it's hard to compete with the ability to love we have as teenagers when we are still capable of the fantasy of perfection is others. But I also just believe that they were soulmates, if there is such a thing.
But I think that was were the kindness from Jack's mother came from, I think she felt a true happiness that her son had felt such a connection with someone, even with it's problems; I don't believe she ever had that herself. I really felt like she wanted to talk to Ennis more. When he is leaving and she asks him to visit them again, I really felt she meant this. I really feel that, had Jack's dad not had been home at the time of Ennis' visit, this scene could have been so different.
I really wonder if she would have pressed Ennis to find out more about her own son. When she asks him to come back some time, I always imagined him coming back after the eventual death of Jack's father, and Ennis taking Jack's, then elder, mother home with him to care for her; as Jack would have done.
Wonderful post! I feel she meant for him to return too. There was a grateful , understanding, honesty in her and Ennis's eyes that a pact between them had been made. They will meet again sometime soon and talk of the one they both loved so dearly. Though Ennis did'nt have Jack there to talk to as a friend anymore, he had Jack's mom, truly the next best thing to having him back. They both had knowledge of him each of them needed to hear. Until that moment, I imagine some form of correspondence such as letters, post cards, etc. between them.
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I agree OrangeT, I don't think Ennis could ever find someone with such a connection as he had with Jack, for many reasons, 2 of which are the ideas that we never truly love again as much as our first love, and also it's hard to compete with the ability to love we have as teenagers when we are still capable of the fantasy of perfection is others. But I also just believe that they were soulmates, if there is such a thing.
But I think that was were the kindness from Jack's mother came from, I think she felt a true happiness that her son had felt such a connection with someone, even with it's problems; I don't believe she ever had that herself. I really felt like she wanted to talk to Ennis more. When he is leaving and she asks him to visit them again, I really felt she meant this. I really feel that, had Jack's dad not had been home at the time of Ennis' visit, this scene could have been so different.
I really wonder if she would have pressed Ennis to find out more about her own son. When she asks him to come back some time, I always imagined him coming back after the eventual death of Jack's father, and Ennis taking Jack's, then elder, mother home with him to care for her; as Jack would have done.
Oh beautiful. I agree. And everything she said and didn't say with her eyes made me feel a lot and left me hanging by some limbs. I'll bet the texture of the shirts being passed on burnt like Hell.
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Excuse me again if this subject has been already treated before,but,as the one of the dead sheep,it's good to "resuscitate"it...It's about the movie's poster,that has been very often compared with the one from "Titanic",as a symbol of a tragic love story;an impossible relationship that can't evelope itself for social reasons-different social classes in the late,same sex in the former...-.
I think that fairly more than this can be seen on it;the position of both protagonists,each of them looking at the contrary side.Could it mean that both of them must pretend they didn't know each other,to hide their love before society? And also,that they have always gone in different directions about the way of developing their relationship?.Different ways of seeing and living the feelings they had for each other...
And also the fact that Ennis is in first plane,almost covering Jack;could it mean that Ennis has always feel like protecting him,from social rules and misunderstanding? Or,simply,Jack appears as a kind of Ennis "protector angel",since he looks like something unreal,or from the other world,as revealing he's going to die?.Or Ennis figure has more importance because,somehow,his role is also more important,because all the story plot is around him and his denials?.Or,also,it's a mere way of reflecting that Ennis is,psychically and perhaps,most of the time,physically,on top-he's covering Jack-?.
I don't know if all this makes sense or,I repeat,it has been said formerly,but I'd be interested in your opinions. :t)
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Great post MPJ! I had never looked at the poster quite like that before. I think all of the scenarios fit very well into that. They both were certainly strong but Ennis was more dominating (maybe not the right word) in that he set down the "rules". It could be that they were intertwined- an extension of the other.
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I like your interpretations also, MJP. I always thought of it as rather yin/yang, but that would apply more if viewed from another angle. But the way it is, with Ennis in front, lends it other meanings.
kathy
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Excuse me again if this subject has been already treated before,but,as the one of the dead sheep,it's good to "resuscitate"it...It's about the movie's poster,that has been very often compared with the one from "Titanic",as a symbol of a tragic love story;an impossible relationship that can't evelope itself for social reasons-different social classes in the late,same sex in the former...-.
I think that fairly more than this can be seen on it;the position of both protagonists,each of them looking at the contrary side.Could it mean that both of them must pretend they didn't know each other,to hide their love before society? And also,that they have always gone in different directions about the way of developing their relationship?.Different ways of seeing and living the feelings they had for each other...
And also the fact that Ennis is in first plane,almost covering Jack;could it mean that Ennis has always feel like protecting him,from social rules and misunderstanding? Or,simply,Jack appears as a kind of Ennis "protector angel",since he looks like something unreal,or from the other world,as revealing he's going to die?.Or Ennis figure has more importance because,somehow,his role is also more important,because all the story plot is around him and his denials?.Or,also,it's a mere way of reflecting that Ennis is,psychically and perhaps,most of the time,physically,on top-he's covering Jack-?.
I don't know if all this makes sense or,I repeat,it has been said formerly,but I'd be interested in your opinions. :t)
I did have a feeling that their not facing each other in the poster did signify something like what you said.
One thing that did occur to me in the past: Ennis is seen entirely in profile whereas we see Jack in three-quarters view. We get the sense that Jack faced the world a bit more head-on than Ennis. But we see nonetheless that both of them are looking down, and NOT at the viewer. It is as if they are not ready to meet the gaze of the world TOGETHER.
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I did have a feeling that their not facing each other in the poster did signify something like what you said.
One thing that did occur to me in the past: Ennis is seen entirely in profile whereas we see Jack in three-quarters view. We get the sense that Jack faced the world a bit more head-on than Ennis. But we see nonetheless that both of them are looking down, and NOT at the viewer. It is as if they are not ready to meet the gaze of the world TOGETHER.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theage.com.au%2Fffximage%2F2006%2F01%2F23%2FBrokeback_051213015328053_wideweb__300x298.jpg&hash=29f06cf13ca2314933da74ae9feea8d8834135d9)
Yes,as if they were hiding from the world's gaze,as if-as I told before-they were pretending they're not walking in the same way...And of course,as you say in this case,as if they weren't ready to expose themselves to this gaze together,reveling their true relationship.
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Great posts guys! I love all of these thoughts about the poster. After all of this time and there is still more to figure out! :clap:
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Yes,as if they were hiding from the world's gaze,as if-as I told before-they were pretending they're not walking in the same way...And of course,as you say in this case,as if they weren't ready to expose themselves to this gaze together,reveling their true relationship.
Exactly. In the eyes, we usually glimpse the truth.
Thanks also, LJN.
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What draws my attention the most about this poster is Jack's position;it looks like a little unnatural,because you can't see his shoulders or part of his body,being behind Ennis as he's...As I said in my first post,he seems to be an unreal being,kind of out of this world,as if he was protecting Ennis even once dead...The truth is that they aren't in equal position and conditions in this poster,no?;for example,in "Titanic" one,Leonardo DiCaprio is behind Kate Wislet and we can't see his body,yes.But he's somehow embracing her,protecting her,in a more natural posture,more "carnal",to say it in some way...Jack,on the contrary,is only behind Ennis,but without physical contact with him,as only being close to him.Is it a kind of showing thatJack will always be with Ennis in a spiritual,affective way?.
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What draws my attention the most about this poster is Jack's position;it looks like a little unnatural,because you can't see his shoulders or part of his body,being behind Ennis as he's...As I said in my first post,he seems to be an unreal being,kind of out of this world,as if he was protecting Ennis even once dead...The truth is that they aren't in equal position and conditions in this poster,no?;for example,in "Titanic" one,Leonardo DiCaprio is behind Kate Wislet and we can't see his body,yes.But he's somehow embracing her,protecting her,in a more natural posture,more "carnal",to say it in some way...Jack,on the contrary,is only behind Ennis,but without physical contact with him,as only being close to him.Is it a kind of showing thatJack will always be with Ennis in a spiritual,affective way?.
Yes, there is a hint of alienation in the BBM poster, and I agree with your last statement. It seems that Jack is apart but nonetheless "hovering" just behind Ennis. He does almost look disembodied, no?
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You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.
Any thoughts?
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You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.
Any thoughts?
I like where you're going with this, jess. I see what you're saying. On the other side of the token, I see: Jack having the optimism, the drive and faith to carry their love/relationship along, feels its value and is able to bear the depth and risk of falling.. possibly forever or until death. Whichever may come first. There's a frustrating weight attached to Jack. Ennis might be able to smirk because while he isn't happy with the circumstances or with how hindered the love affair 'had' to be, fear of falling for another man makes his options very simple; to simply work, get married.. later support kids, and always act straight was a layer bound to burn (by losing a secret love?) in order for him to find himself, the self with a free will. Hence the naive, almost carefree smirk and wince in his eye in the poster. Jack on the other hand knew his heart and the love that was necessary.
When it comes down to it I like to think the responsibility of the finite, material world (save matters of his two kids which are of course important) is much lighter than, and even laughable in comparison to, that of staying true to one's own heart. Ennis can be seen brushing off things trivial, whereas Jack may be looking down at his heart and the unity aching to manifest between it and his friends'.
I believe they were meant to fit together and grow in order to move forward - - both miracle and tradegy being both time and place.
Depressing really, having such a brilliant reminder of this love story in the instance of a simple poster, yeah?
:-\\
:ghug:
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You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.
Any thoughts?
OMG Jess, I always wondered about that!! Ennis seems to be so at peace here...Maybe because he at the very end found what love means and what he and Jack had was love? I don't know...because that half smirk looks like a sad one, and he's looking at the floor too...
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Yes Orange, I love how much speculation and emotions can rise from a simple poster...but then, it's not really simple, is it :)
I thought that too Tammy, that maybe Ennis is suppossed to be at peace at the end.
What I find interesting though, is the fact that they are young in the poster, so he wouldn't have found his peace yet.
I started thinking, just now looking at it again, that maybe the shot is suppossed to take place before they met. Like Jack is sad and miserable because he already senses that he desires something forbidden, while Ennis is under the false pretence that all is well...he's got a possible job oportunity, he's engaged to Alma, he thinks he's happy...
Maybe the poster sort of hints that these emotions are felt by them now, but they are about to meet each other on this mountain, and realize what they believed to be their fate before, might not be it at all.
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Yes Orange, I love how much speculation and emotions can rise from a simple poster...but then, it's not really simple, is it :)
I thought that too Tammy, that maybe Ennis is suppossed to be at peace at the end.
What I find interesting though, is the fact that they are young in the poster, so he wouldn't have found his peace yet.
I started thinking, just now looking at it again, that maybe the shot is suppossed to take place before they met. Like Jack is sad and miserable because he already senses that he desires something forbidden, while Ennis is under the false pretence that all is well...he's got a possible job oportunity, he's engaged to Alma, he thinks he's happy...
Maybe the poster sort of hints that these emotions are felt by them now, but they are about to meet each other on this mountain, and realize what they believed to be their fate before, might not be it at all.
:)
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You know what always gets me about the poster...the way that Jack seems so sad and frustrated, while Ennis almost seems to be smirking, like the start of a smile. Like Jack is doomed, but Ennis will eventually be alright. Or that he is at peace with their situation, which isn't true. I wonder why he looks so peaceful and hopeful, when the character never was, he thought their situation was hopeless, it was Jack that was forever hopeful.
Any thoughts?
Very interesting, Jess. I admit that I had not thought about it this way. For some reason, I have read sadness in both their faces -- and an enforced need to keep apart. Perhaps this is more reflective of myself and that the poster allows one to read it depending on one's state of mind? There is indeed what can be seen to be a formative smile on Ennis, although I had not seen it that way until you said it here...
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I never used to like this poster. Neither Ennis nor Jack looks like himself. They look like city boys masquerading as cowboys, all cleaned up, shaven perfectly, matching jackets. But, as time has gone by, I look at it as more of a piece of art. The way they are looking downwards, but Ennis to the left and Jack to the right, immediately gives the impression of the yin/yang, the good/evil, the male/female. To me, when I look at it closely now, it brings to mind all the dichotomies in the story, all the confusion (personality, sexual confusion, women vs men). So, it has become symbolic to me, rather than a true representation of the two characters. So now I see some sort of beauty in it, and, with Heath's passing, it will forever be a picture of his youth.
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I love all the perspectives on this poster. Lamusica, I always saw it as a yin/yang thing also; and I saw it as a "publicity" thing, not really the characters per se. Which leads me to wonder, did they pose for this, together like this, or did they edit Jack into the picture? As they edited the mountain backdrop into it. If they did pose for it, I sure would like to see the rejects in the series.
kathy
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Interesting discussion on the poster and all the perspectives make sense. I remember reading somewhere about the design of the BBM poster and just googled
"When it came time to design the poster for the film, [co-president of Focus Features and frequent Lee collaborator James] Schamus didn't research posters of famous Westerns for ideas. He looked at the posters of the 50 most romantic movies ever made. "If you look at our poster," he says, "you can see traces of our inspiration, 'Titanic'."
Other than the inspiration from Titanic, the eyes caught my attention. They are closed to opposite direction. Eyes are window of the soul. Their closed eyes have their fate sealed.
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The graphic quality of this image has always been stunning to me. Yes, lamusica it’s a bit of an A&F version of cowboys, but this is the 21st century so I can forgive. I’m just guessing, but in this era of techno-graphics I would imagine that the entire image is composed from various stills and shots, certainly not posed as shown. The artists had a field day playing with the sunlight and the way it sensuously plays on the hat brims (the way they intertwine), jacket seams, and even Jack’s lips.
I’m using a more complete version to show the entire scene here.
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I see the pose for both boys as sort of an “Aw, shucks, ma’am” pose, sort of a Gary Cooper pose, masculine, but in a shy, unassuming manner. Not the John Wayne, guns blazing western bravado.
The mountains (of course there had to be mountains) mirrored almost perfectly in the still waters, to me reflect the reverse image of their secret lives. One real, one just imaginary, but which one is which? Behind them lay the billowing clouds, symbolizing the tremendous, volcanic energy of their relationship
I see in the slight smirk of Ennis as more of a grim determination, “We gotta stick this thing out Jack” teeth clenched, whereas to me Jack looks sadly brokenhearted that his dream of "A Sweet Life” is never realized.
I think the graphic artists here did a great job. JMHO.
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Thank you for researching, jackster! Of course the "Titanic" thing is the most obvious. But I also like and agree with your "aw shucks" type of cowboy attitude, as opposed to John Wayne type.
This is a stunning version of it, that you posted. The clouds are actually quite threatening, like thunderheads -- big storm's a-coming. Force of nature. And the reflection of mountains in water, beautiful certainly, but mirror images generally tend toward a kind of confusion. Also, mirror-images could be a symbol of same-sex relationships.
kathy
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Thanks everyone. I find the comment about the reflection very interesting.
I don't know whether I have said this before, but we see Ennis in full profile -- with no possibility of his eyes meeting the gave of the viewer if they were open. Jack's is a bit more towards the viewer; he could potentially meet our gaze if his eyes opened and if his head wasn't bowed down.
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Thanks everyone. I find the comment about the reflection very interesting.
I don't know whether I have said this before, but we see Ennis in full profile -- with no possibility of his eyes meeting the gave of the viewer if they were open. Jack's is a bit more towards the viewer; he could potentially meet our gaze if his eyes opened and if his head wasn't bowed down.
Could this mean that Ennis spend all his life hiddening himself from the other's gaze,trying also to hide his feelings?And that Jack was more able to open his eyes-his feelings and expose them to the society's opinion?.
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Could this mean that Ennis spend all his life hiddening himself from the other's gaze,trying also to hide his feelings?And that Jack was more able to open his eyes-his feelings and expose them to the society's opinion?.
Yes, they say that a person who cannot meet one's gaze is hiding something from the viewer AND himself/herself. It could be seen as an involuntary way of not showing one's feelings -- because they do show in the eyes. Equating eyes with our own feelings is quite valid, IMO.
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Yes, they say that a person who cannot meet one's gaze is hiding something from the viewer AND himself/herself. It could be seen as an involuntary way of not showing one's feelings -- because they do show in the eyes. Equating eyes with our own feelings is quite valid, IMO.
So. so true. an example being the divorce scene for sure. After Jack says "see ya month then" Ennis cannot look at Jack as he sends him away, he just stares at the ground. So much guilt, so much shame. He knows Jack is hurt....and he's causing it.
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re Jack: 'Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" to me, has always been his saying 'I love you' to Ennis in his own way. It was said with such an underlying fervor and feeling, I never felt it could be given any other interpretation. And did you see the look in his eyes in that scene...perhaps a
little pain also? :\'( :\'(
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So. so true. an example being the divorce scene for sure. After Jack says "see ya month then" Ennis cannot look at Jack as he sends him away, he just stares at the ground. So much guilt, so much shame. He knows Jack is hurt....and he's causing it.
And the same goes for the reunion scene, when jack meets Alma. You can read Alma's distress in her eyes -- and Jack takes one fixed look and just had to look down/away. We can read too much in his eyes at that moment.
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re Jack: 'Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" to me, has always been his saying 'I love you' to Ennis in his own way. It was said with such an underlying fervor and feeling, I never felt it could be given any other interpretation. And did you see the look in his eyes in that scene...perhaps a
little pain also? :\'( :\'(
Yes! As mentioned in another thread, this scene is the closest he ever got to verbally saying "I love you."
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And the same goes for the reunion scene, when jack meets Alma. You can read Alma's distress in her eyes -- and Jack takes one fixed look and just had to look down/away. We can read too much in his eyes at that moment.
Exactly, Thomas, after staring Alma for a brief moment he just looks down, then Ennis, then away and down...He knows his face and eyes are saying it all to Alma...
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Gotta say this is one of my favourite threads. It's really interesting (like all the other threads in this forum).
This has nothing to do with it, though - So just ignore this. ;)
I just really want to say THANK YOU to all of you for sharing your thoughts. I never get tired of watching this movie, and all of the genius stuff you talk about in here just makes it even more amazing.
And it teaches me so much more than just about the movie - I don't really know how to describe it...
Just... Please keep sharing your thoughts, dreams and wonders.
I've never read anything like what is in here. It makes me laugh and (seriously) cry!! I'm stunned... <^(
STUNNED...
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Gotta say this is one of my favourite threads. It's really interesting (like all the other threads in this forum).
I've never read anything like what is in here. It makes me laugh and (seriously) cry!! I'm stunned... <^(
STUNNED...
Yes, though many threads have meaning to us all, there is something special about this one....
It's so wonderful to see all the different interpretations of a line or moment, and see what exactly someone else got from it...did they see it that way because that's really how they felt it meant to Jack and Ennis, or did they interprete it that way because it connects to a moment in one's own life?! :)
And the same goes for the reunion scene, when jack meets Alma. You can read Alma's distress in her eyes -- and Jack takes one fixed look and just had to look down/away. We can read too much in his eyes at that moment.
Yes Thomas, Jack's guilt is so evident in this scene, and what I find most interesting is really all they've done by that point(since Alma has been Ennis' wife) is the kiss that took place only seconds earlier....His guilt is from the feelings he's held on to for the past 4 years...and the knowing(after that kiss) what's going to happen next. Though it was likely too soon for Jack to really have given it a lot of thought, I'm sure he had been thinking about it the whole trip up...thinking about what would happen next if Ennis did seem to still care for him...and I don't just mean a sexual romp in a cheap motel room, I mean the fact that Jack wanted a permanent life with Ennis...I think some of his guilt in that Alma scene also comes from the fact that he knows he's looking at a woman who loves the same man he loves...and as much as it's going to hurt her(exactly how he's been hurting) ...that knowledge isn't going to stop him from trying to get Ennis to leave her for himself.
It's guilt because in the end, the one Jack really connects and has the most in common with...is actually Alma. I think it hurts him a bit to hurt her...because he is her in a way. I think that has a lot to do with how bitter he becomes after Ennis still refuses to be with him after the divorce...like he could almost understand Ennis choosing not to hurt Alma and his daughters...but if they're hurting anyway....???
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Exactly, Thomas, after staring Alma for a brief moment he just looks down, then Ennis, then away and down...He knows his face and eyes are saying it all to Alma...
You could tell that he was uncomfortable, even though he didn't have the knowledge that Alma did in fact see them kissing. Perhaps he had read everything from her eyes...
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Gotta say this is one of my favourite threads. It's really interesting (like all the other threads in this forum).
This has nothing to do with it, though - So just ignore this. ;)
I just really want to say THANK YOU to all of you for sharing your thoughts. I never get tired of watching this movie, and all of the genius stuff you talk about in here just makes it even more amazing.
And it teaches me so much more than just about the movie - I don't really know how to describe it...
Just... Please keep sharing your thoughts, dreams and wonders.
I've never read anything like what is in here. It makes me laugh and (seriously) cry!! I'm stunned... <^(
STUNNED...
Thanks, Brokeback adoration. And later, you may find other double meanings to share with us here. I don't think we've exhausted all possible double meanings in the movie and the story...
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Yes Thomas, Jack's guilt is so evident in this scene, and what I find most interesting is really all they've done by that point(since Alma has been Ennis' wife) is the kiss that took place only seconds earlier....His guilt is from the feelings he's held on to for the past 4 years...and the knowing(after that kiss) what's going to happen next. Though it was likely too soon for Jack to really have given it a lot of thought, I'm sure he had been thinking about it the whole trip up...thinking about what would happen next if Ennis did seem to still care for him...and I don't just mean a sexual romp in a cheap motel room, I mean the fact that Jack wanted a permanent life with Ennis...I think some of his guilt in that Alma scene also comes from the fact that he knows he's looking at a woman who loves the same man he loves...and as much as it's going to hurt her(exactly how he's been hurting) ...that knowledge isn't going to stop him from trying to get Ennis to leave her for himself.
It's guilt because in the end, the one Jack really connects and has the most in common with...is actually Alma. I think it hurts him a bit to hurt her...because he is her in a way. I think that has a lot to do with how bitter he becomes after Ennis still refuses to be with him after the divorce...like he could almost understand Ennis choosing not to hurt Alma and his daughters...but if they're hurting anyway....???
Exactly! I don;t think it was all out of the blue -- that Jack would propose a sweet life to Ennis there and then. Jack had probably dreamed of it during the intervening years. And I do agree that all of this showed in his eyes when he met Alma -- all the guilt and the desires and the plans he had been thinking about all those 4 years without Ennis.
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It's guilt because in the end, the one Jack really connects and has the most in common with...is actually Alma. I think it hurts him a bit to hurt her...because he is her in a way. I think that has a lot to do with how bitter he becomes after Ennis still refuses to be with him after the divorce...like he could almost understand Ennis choosing not to hurt Alma and his daughters...but if they're hurting anyway....???
You are so right, Jess. ^f^
Alma and Jack was so similar in the end. They both loved Ennis and fight for his love, but neither of them got what they wanted, to live happily with Ennis. How ironic.
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You are so right, Jess. ^f^
Alma and Jack was so similar in the end. They both loved Ennis and fight for his love, but neither of them got what they wanted, to live happily with Ennis. How ironic.
If you see it well,the movie is full with ironies; it's ironic that Ennis only came to terms with his feelings after having loose the object of this love;it's ironic that he spent all his life protecting themselves against something that happenned at the end in spite of this;it's ironic even that the character who remained lonely but alive has been played but someone who has passed away in real life...Existence itself is ironic,no?. :-\\
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From the short story.
Just hit upon me the other day, I’ve read it about a dozen times never saw it until then. Thinkin’ about the heat in their relationship, the fire and the burning desire. Annie’s vivid description of (what would be) their last meeting . . .
“Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close . . . "I used a want a boy for a kid," said Ennis, undoing buttons . . .
. . . a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt.”
Whew! Made me think about what can happen when two fellas get together and have a good time. How hot stuff can come sprayin’ out, flying all over the place. Hot points of fire - for sure.
“One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings . . .”
As Jack said, “Whooee, Yeah!”
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From the short story.
Just hit upon me the other day, I’ve read it about a dozen times never saw it until then. Thinkin’ about the heat in their relationship, the fire and the burning desire. Annie’s vivid description of (what would be) their last meeting . . .
“Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close . . . "I used a want a boy for a kid," said Ennis, undoing buttons . . .
. . . a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt.”
Whew! Made me think about what can happen when two fellas get together and have a good time. How hot stuff can come sprayin’ out, flying all over the place. Hot points of fire - for sure.
“One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings . . .”
As Jack said, “Whooee, Yeah!”
:)
We also see this fire-and-passion connection in SNIT, where we see their coupling by the light of the campfire...
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:)
We also see this fire-and-passion connection in SNIT, where we see their coupling by the light of the campfire...
Yes,fire is in the middle of them,like a way of coupling them and inspiring more fire-desire-in them.As we see water running in the middle of them also-as Justin said in its moment-in the scene when Ennis tells Earl and Rich's story; as an energy-desire,but also in this case tenderness-running from one to the other.
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Yes,fire is in the middle of them,like a way of coupling them and inspiring more fire-desire-in them.As we see water running in the middle of them also-as Justin said in its moment-in the scene when Ennis tells Earl and Rich's story; as an energy-desire,but also in this case tenderness-running from one to the other.
Yes, I do think the fires are symbolically central to many of the pivotal scenes in BBM. Certainly, in the night before the final confrontation, we see them by the ligfht of the fire, hopelessly trying to hide how they truly feel -- and they failed.
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So. so true. an example being the divorce scene for sure. After Jack says "see ya month then" Ennis cannot look at Jack as he sends him away, he just stares at the ground. So much guilt, so much shame. He knows Jack is hurt....and he's causing it.
well said...in that scene Ennis exactly does not know what to say....he is filled with so much pain to let go of jack but his fears and other thoughts stop him to be with jack ..so he wants to let go,,,but parting ways with jack in that scene is so hard for him...so he is not able to look at him properly and Jack is staring at Ennis hoping that he would say that he feels the same way or that they can meet up soon...
Then when Jack drives the car and sees Ennis going the other way he literally feels the distance increasing between them...The distance of the road corresponds to the distance that gets between them :\'(
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We have talked about the sheep subject formerly;but now I'd like to comment something I was talking about with another Brokie few time ago.She said that sheep means here the society,in which Ennis and Jack are immerse by mixing with them in the mountain; sometimes,they follow the sheep,as a way of following also society's rules,but sometimes,sheep are guided by them,as a way of trying to "tame" society in favour of their relationship and feelings-as a way to make society understand how they were and,obviously,accept it-.And that,when one of these sheep doesn't follow society's rules,it's sacrificed as a punishment;the dead sheep is found by Ennis,the one of them who was more willing to accept its rules and to follow them.A kind of warning to him of what can happen when a sheep follows its own way without being with the herd.What's your opinion?.
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I love that MPJ! Beautifully stated. Personally I like to stay away from the herd- just because they may be large numberwise, doesn't mean they are 'right'. :P And then there are the paint brands that wore off maybe suggesting that no one wears a sign and/or that one shouldn't be defined by labels- we all belong here. I think the mixing of the sheep fits into that as well.
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I like both of those interpretations. I'd never thought of them before. Thanks gals. ^f^
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We have talked about the sheep subject formerly;but now I'd like to comment something I was talking about with another Brokie few time ago.She said that sheep means here the society,in which Ennis and Jack are immerse by mixing with them in the mountain; sometimes,they follow the sheep,as a way of following also society's rules,but sometimes,sheep are guided by them,as a way of trying to "tame" society in favour of their relationship and feelings-as a way to make society understand how they were and,obviously,accept it-.And that,when one of these sheep doesn't follow society's rules,it's sacrificed as a punishment;the dead sheep is found by Ennis,the one of them who was more willing to accept its rules and to follow them.A kind of warning to him of what can happen when a sheep follows its own way without being with the herd.What's your opinion?.
I love that MPJ! Beautifully stated. Personally I like to stay away from the herd- just because they may be large numberwise, doesn't mean they are 'right'. :P And then there are the paint brands that wore off maybe suggesting that no one wears a sign and/or that one shouldn't be defined by labels- we all belong here. I think the mixing of the sheep fits into that as well.
Love the interpretations. :)
I know that some people have seen the one that died as a proto-figure of Jack. This view is consistent with the above interpretation. And one can certainly read a lot of significance in the "branding" of the herd...
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I love that MPJ! Beautifully stated. Personally I like to stay away from the herd- just because they may be large numberwise, doesn't mean they are 'right'. :P And then there are the paint brands that wore off maybe suggesting that no one wears a sign and/or that one shouldn't be defined by labels- we all belong here. I think the mixing of the sheep fits into that as well.
Thank you,Michelle ¡ I have never thought about the symbolism of the paint brands that wore off,but I find it really interesting.Yes,maybe that persons like Ennis and Jack,who are away from the herd,are really like any other and that the labels-or the paint brands-only serve to make stupid and unfair differences between equals.
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Love the interpretations. :)
I know that some people have seen the one that died as a proto-figure of Jack. This view is consistent with the above interpretation. And one can certainly read a lot of significance in the "branding" of the herd..
Yes,somebody has spoken about the possibility of a symbolism of Jack's future death.Or it can be only a warning for who runs away from society's rules,precisely right after having sinned?.
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We have talked about the sheep subject formerly;but now I'd like to comment something I was talking about with another Brokie few time ago.She said that sheep means here the society,in which Ennis and Jack are immerse by mixing with them in the mountain; sometimes,they follow the sheep,as a way of following also society's rules,but sometimes,sheep are guided by them,as a way of trying to "tame" society in favour of their relationship and feelings-as a way to make society understand how they were and,obviously,accept it-.And that,when one of these sheep doesn't follow society's rules,it's sacrificed as a punishment;the dead sheep is found by Ennis,the one of them who was more willing to accept its rules and to follow them.A kind of warning to him of what can happen when a sheep follows its own way without being with the herd.What's your opinion?.
Very good points MPJ.
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Yes,somebody has spoken about the possibility of a symbolism of Jack's future death.Or it can be only a warning for who runs away from society's rules,precisely right after having sinned?.
Could be both! :) Whether or not the dead sheep was a symbol of Jack, it certainly prefigured what was to come. Our mind goes back to this image the moment Ennis imagines the manner in which Jack dies...
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Very good points MPJ.
Thank you,Anita,but not all of them are mine... :^^)
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Could be both! :) Whether or not the dead sheep was a symbol of Jack, it certainly prefigured what was to come. Our mind goes back to this image the moment Ennis imagines the manner in which Jack dies...
And somehow can increase Ennis guilt's feeling,specially years after...
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And somehow can increase Ennis guilt's feeling,specially years after...
Certainly, he probably felt that Jack was taking risks -- an perhaps blamed himself for not trying enough to keep him out of it?
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Looking at the picture of the scene when Ennis meets the Basque to command what they need,I see that there's a bridge behind them.This bridge is like a wall,something that separates two parts of a river,or of a path.It could be also,then,like the border that separates two worlds;Ennis and Jack's world and all the rest's,as if the bridge was this invisible path that leds them to the real life.What's your opinion about?.
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Looking at the picture of the scene when Ennis meets the Basque to command what they need,I see that there's a bridge behind them.This bridge is like a wall,something that separates two parts of a river,or of a path.It could be also,then,like the border that separates two worlds;Ennis and Jack's world and all the rest's,as if the bridge was this invisible path that leds them to the real life.What's your opinion about?.
Very intriguing suggestion, MPJ! I always look at that bridge and wonder whether there is any significance to it. I've always found it interesting that THAT scene was shot with the bridge as as backdrop in order to suggest something.
I would tend to agree with you. The suggestion is that this is the conact-point with the outside world, and the isolation and distance of one world from the other is symbolized in part by the flimsy nature of the bridge, would you agree?
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Very intriguing suggestion, MPJ! I always look at that bridge and wonder whether there is any significance to it. I've always found it interesting that THAT scene was shot with the bridge as as backdrop in order to suggest something.
I would tend to agree with you. The suggestion is that this is the conact-point with the outside world, and the isolation and distance of one world from the other is symbolized in part by the flimsy nature of the bridge, would you agree?
Yes,I'd agree,of course¡.Moreover,we see that the bridge is introduced not as a way to contact two worlds,but as a way to separate them.I mean,it's like a barrier that differentiates and almost isolates Ennis and Jack's world to all the rest,as you say;it's like a way of showing that both of them didn't get on well together...does this make sense?.
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Yes,I'd agree,of course¡.Moreover,we see that the bridge is introduced not as a way to contact two worlds,but as a way to separate them.I mean,it's like a barrier that differentiates and almost isolates Ennis and Jack's world to all the rest,as you say;it's like a way of showing that both of them didn't get on well together...does this make sense?.
Interesting distuinction -- because we always think of a bridge as connecting two points. But the flimsiness here suggests more of separataion or the divide, as you suggest. It runs counter to the standard image of "bridging the gap" or "crossing the divide."
There is an intrinsic fear and some degree of risk crossing a flimsy bridge...
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Interesting distuinction -- because we always think of a bridge as connecting two points. But the flimsiness here suggests more of separataion or the divide, as you suggest. It runs counter to the standard image of "bridging the gap" or "crossing the divide."
There is an intrinsic fear and some degree of risk crossing a flimsy bridge...
Yes,as we see here that bridge as a barrier more than a connection between two points,from the perspective it has been filmed.As regards to the risk of crossing a bridge,I think it could be,because there was a certain danger in the "real" world for Ennis and Jack as they crossed that bridge and let their part,their world...As a matter of fact,their crossing would mean the end of their freedom and,to a certain extent,their love living as they used to...
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I somehow got the impression that it was Ennis who crossed the bridge to meet with the Chilean, and not the other way around. It suggests that the latter expected Ennis to meet him on his ground. Or then again, it suggests an Ennis who wants to keep the BBM side inviolate -- free from interlopers... I hope that this is not too much of a stretch.
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I somehow got the impression that it was Ennis who crossed the bridge to meet with the Chilean, and not the other way around. It suggests that the latter expected Ennis to meet him on his ground. Or then again, it suggests an Ennis who wants to keep the BBM side inviolate -- free from interlopers... I hope that this is not too much of a stretch.
Yes,I also have this impression ¡ It'd suggest,as you say,that Ennis wanted their world free from "the other side" inferences; but also,could it mean that it was Ennis who wanted somehow to be inside this other world?...It's to say,the real one,the "normal" one?...As we see that Ennis is who has more difficulties in accepting their relationship and,consequently,who wants to be accepted as a "real2 man for society...
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Yes,I also have this impression ¡ It'd suggest,as you say,that Ennis wanted their world free from "the other side" inferences; but also,could it mean that it was Ennis who wanted somehow to be inside this other world?...It's to say,the real one,the "normal" one?...As we see that Ennis is who has more difficulties in accepting their relationship and,consequently,who wants to be accepted as a "real2 man for society...
Ennis was someone who truly straddled 2 worlds, and was uncomfortable in both of them. He certainly hankered for acceptance and integration in the "real" world, and yet knew deep in his heart that THAT was not to be.
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Ennis was someone who truly straddled 2 worlds, and was uncomfortable in both of them. He certainly hankered for acceptance and integration in the "real" world, and yet knew deep in his heart that THAT was not to be.
Yes,exactly ¡ He was never fully comfortable in either both sides of the bridge;but the real and greater non-acceptance he had was about himself...
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Yes,exactly ¡ He was never fully comfortable in either both sides of the bridge;but the real and greater non-acceptance he had was about himself...
The deleted scene where we see Jack squatting in the middle of a log bridge -- I wonder if that has a similar connotation?
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The deleted scene where we see Jack squatting in the middle of a log bridge -- I wonder if that has a similar connotation?
Yes,good point,Tomas¡ :clap: Jack is in the middle of a log bridge that is over the river,with the water passing-the lost opportunities,maybe?-,meanwhile he can be in the middle of crossing paths,without knowing which side get...Can he be thinking about which world-or side-was his?.
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Yes,good point,Tomas¡ :clap: Jack is in the middle of a log bridge that is over the river,with the water passing-the lost opportunities,maybe?-,meanwhile he can be in the middle of crossing paths,without knowing which side get...Can he be thinking about which world-or side-was his?.
I had assumed that he was thinking then about Ennis -- but I had wondered if the setting of the log bridge had any significance. It seems to lend itself to a deeper interpretation, no? Yes, one can see it in terms of being "caught" in the middle of things, as the waters pass under him...
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I tend to believe that the fact that Jack while standing alone on the log bridge or Ennis talking with the shepperd under the bridge means that both of them had the feeling that they didn't belong completely to any of the two worlds:theirs in the mountain and the real world that was going to "welcome" when they went down from Brokeback.That,specially in Ennis case,they didn't feel at ease in any of the worlds; the BBM one because they knew it was going to be only an "impasse" of happiness before coming back to their daily duties and routine.And the real world because,obviously,they knew for sure that they weren't going to be the same in it,nor this same world was going to understand and let their love grow in a natural way.For this reason,these both horizontal bridges are like a gap they felt unable to pass without letting a great part of them in the path...
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I tend to believe that the fact that Jack while standing alone on the log bridge or Ennis talking with the shepperd under the bridge means that both of them had the feeling that they didn't belong completely to any of the two worlds:theirs in the mountain and the real world that was going to "welcome" when they went down from Brokeback.That,specially in Ennis case,they didn't feel at ease in any of the worlds; the BBM one because they knew it was going to be only an "impasse" of happiness before coming back to their daily duties and routine.And the real world because,obviously,they knew for sure that they weren't going to be the same in it,nor this same world was going to understand and let their love grow in a natural way.For this reason,these both horizontal bridges are like a gap they felt unable to pass without letting a great part of them in the path...
Very interesting connection, MPJ. It also occurs to me that the STREAM that the bridge crosses in each instance is also a potent symbol -- not only of separation, but also of the passing time. We see a stream in many key scenes in the movie -- especially in the later scenes as they grow older. The sound of the stream is clearly heard in the scene of the first reunion up in the mountains. It is also prominent in the scene where Ennis and Jack argue and fight while washing dishes.
Of course, camping near a stream is expected. But I also sense a double meaning in the symbol of flowing waters in each successively later scene. It is significant that we see no such scene in the end. This is hardly surprising, as Ennis probably never goes camping up the mountains by himself after Jack's death. But it also seems to indicate to me that time had run out for the two of them.
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Very interesting connection, MPJ. It also occurs to me that the STREAM that the bridge crosses in each instance is also a potent symbol -- not only of separation, but also of the passing time. We see a stream in many key scenes in the movie -- especially in the later scenes as they grow older. The sound of the stream is clearly heard in the scene of the first reunion up in the mountains. It is also prominent in the scene where Ennis and Jack argue and fight while washing dishes.
Of course, camping near a stream is expected. But I also sense a double meaning in the symbol of flowing waters in each successively later scene. It is significant that we see no such scene in the end. This is hardly surprising, as Ennis probably never goes camping up the mountains by himself after Jack's death. But it also seems to indicate to me that time had run out for the two of them.
Yes,you're right;we can see water,but also fire in several of the scenes,specially between the both of them.Of course,as you say,is expected camping near a stream, the same that lighting a bonfire in the campside;but in this case,could it be like a representation of their own and different way of being?.Water and fire,the same than air and earth,means the elements that represents the way of react and behave of human beings; some are opponents,some other are complementaires,like ying and yang.like Ennis and Jack themselves...
Someone said once in the forum that(specially in the scene when Ennis tells Jack his traumatic childhood experience) that water runs from one to the other; and I'd add that this also happens in this scene when they argue near the river for Jack's wishes of a "sweet life together".It's like a strength,like something that joins them but at the same time,is able to separate them,like water can carry whatever you throw on it and separates it from you,does this make sense?.
And it's very interesting also what you say about water in their last encounters; I had never thought in that lack of water after Jack's death could perfectly mean that time had run out for the two of them...Thank you again for making me think it over¡.Yes,water doesn't run because time is over too,no?,there's already no future for them.Talking about time and water,haven't you noticed that,the younger they are,the quicker water seems to flow?And that,when they are older,they usually are into the water,as if they let themselves be carried for water,it's to say,for society's rules?.And that,in their last confrontation,water remains strangely quiet,like a premonition that their relationship is going nowhere,so nowhere that soon it would be over?.Wow,too many questions and too boring,I know,but it seems astonishing for me¡.
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The most boring Brokie in the forum attacks again¡ ;D No,talking about time and water,I have thought too that some persons had said as a BBM fault,that they spent too much time talking about their adventures in the mountain,detailing too much their daily duties and routines during a great part of the movie.And that,on the contrary,after their separation,time flies like an arrow,in such a way that sometimes we don't realise that four or five years have passed,what takes a little of rhythm away.It's to say,that three months in BBM when they're 19 lasts almost the same than 20 years of their lives...
I think that this could be also a double meaning,or at least,something that Ang Lee had looked for in a premeditated way; after their second night together,when we realise they have fallen in love,their time in BBM finishes quickly,as a way of telling us that happiness time is too short.And the same we could say about the rest of their years together;the older they are,the quicker their time together flies.Time never is quicker than when people are old,and on the contrary, so in Ennis and Jack case,maybe it's a way of showing that their happiness was as short as their opportunities of being together.I don't know if I have been able to express myself well enough... :-\\
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Yes,you're right;we can see water,but also fire in several of the scenes,specially between the both of them.Of course,as you say,is expected camping near a stream, the same that lighting a bonfire in the campside;but in this case,could it be like a representation of their own and different way of being?.Water and fire,the same than air and earth,means the elements that represents the way of react and behave of human beings; some are opponents,some other are complementaires,like ying and yang.like Ennis and Jack themselves...
Someone said once in the forum that(specially in the scene when Ennis tells Jack his traumatic childhood experience) that water runs from one to the other; and I'd add that this also happens in this scene when they argue near the river for Jack's wishes of a "sweet life together".It's like a strength,like something that joins them but at the same time,is able to separate them,like water can carry whatever you throw on it and separates it from you,does this make sense?.
And it's very interesting also what you say about water in their last encounters; I had never thought in that lack of water after Jack's death could perfectly mean that time had run out for the two of them...Thank you again for making me think it over¡.Yes,water doesn't run because time is over too,no?,there's already no future for them.Talking about time and water,haven't you noticed that,the younger they are,the quicker water seems to flow?And that,when they are older,they usually are into the water,as if they let themselves be carried for water,it's to say,for society's rules?.And that,in their last confrontation,water remains strangely quiet,like a premonition that their relationship is going nowhere,so nowhere that soon it would be over?.Wow,too many questions and too boring,I know,but it seems astonishing for me¡.
Well, since you brought up the image of campfires, I have always thought that 3 such scenes are somehow related:
- The campfire scene whenEnnis comes back from the bear incident.
- The campfire scene during the first reunion.
- The camfire scene before the Last Confrontation.
I think the placement of these scenes -- in the beginning, middle, and late periods of their relationship, are somehow linked. I think of all sorts of meanings relating the 3 scenes. They just don't establish critical junctures, IMO. I somehow think that the fire somehow signifies their love, and that the coldness in the last scene indicates a terminal point in the relationship...
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The most boring Brokie in the forum attacks again¡ ;D No,talking about time and water,I have thought too that some persons had said as a BBM fault,that they spent too much time talking about their adventures in the mountain,detailing too much their daily duties and routines during a great part of the movie.And that,on the contrary,after their separation,time flies like an arrow,in such a way that sometimes we don't realise that four or five years have passed,what takes a little of rhythm away.It's to say,that three months in BBM when they're 19 lasts almost the same than 20 years of their lives...
I think that this could be also a double meaning,or at least,something that Ang Lee had looked for in a premeditated way; after their second night together,when we realise they have fallen in love,their time in BBM finishes quickly,as a way of telling us that happiness time is too short.And the same we could say about the rest of their years together;the older they are,the quicker their time together flies.Time never is quicker than when people are old,and on the contrary, so in Ennis and Jack case,maybe it's a way of showing that their happiness was as short as their opportunities of being together.I don't know if I have been able to express myself well enough... :-\\
I sensed the same thing. The fleeting nature of happiness is a resounding theme, IMO. It connects this discussion to the one about Buddhism, I think. Have you had a chance to read all the posts in that thread? Very heavy at times, but quite beatiful, IMO.
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Very good points that I've never thought of before, MPJ... :t)
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Coming back to the role of the four elements in some scenes,and seeing that I talked about the water that runs from one to the other...;in SNIT there's fire between them when they kiss and in the scene Ennis talks about his traumatic experience in childhood,water.The first example doesn't need any explanations,and as regards to the second,it could be a way to show the empathy that Jack feels about Ennis by seeing he's so hurt and shocked by this tragic memory.
Also a way to show that their relationship is alive-water is a sign of life-and that love flows from one another in the zenith of their happinness and youth.It's similar to what we said in some posts over this one,about how the younger they are,the quicker water runs;they are then the most similar too to their times in BBM,so water is like a strength that passes from Jack to Ennis,and viceversa.What's your opinion?
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Coming back to the role of the four elements in some scenes,and seeing that I talked about the water that runs from one to the other...;in SNIT there's fire between them when they kiss and in the scene Ennis talks about his traumatic experience in childhood,water.The first example doesn't need any explanations,and as regards to the second,it could be a way to show the empathy that Jack feels about Ennis by seeing he's so hurt and shocked by this tragic memory.
Also a way to show that their relationship is alive-water is a sign of life-and that love flows from one another in the zenith of their happinness and youth.It's similar to what we said in some posts over this one,about how the younger they are,the quicker water runs;they are then the most similar too to their times in BBM,so water is like a strength that passes from Jack to Ennis,and viceversa.What's your opinion?
We also get a feel of thr various stages in their relationship through images of fire and water. We see them weary and wary as they cross a stream later in life. We see them by a weakening fire in the scene right before the Last Confrontation.
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We also get a feel of thr various stages in their relationship through images of fire and water. We see them weary and wary as they cross a stream later in life. We see them by a weakening fire in the scene right before the Last Confrontation.
That's right¡ Thank you,Thomas¡ ^f^ It's the same than we talked about the quiet water in the end of their relationship,do you remember?...Fire(maybe their passion?)is weakening just before something that will mark an after and a before in this relationship.I think is quite moving and sage the way Ang uses the elements to illustrate their story...
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That's right¡ Thank you,Thomas¡ ^f^ It's the same than we talked about the quiet water in the end of their relationship,do you remember?...Fire(maybe their passion?)is weakening just before something that will mark an after and a before in this relationship.I think is quite moving and sage the way Ang uses the elements to illustrate their story...
I do think that the use of such images was deliberate, and seems to make a connection between what is elemental in both the natural world and human nature.
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I think the poster for the movie shows a lot of symbolism, and I like how it intentionally resembles the Titanic poster. Notice how Jack and Ennis are analagous to Rose and Jack from Titanic. Ennis is in the same position as Rose, because Rose, like him, was the closed-up and trapped one, always pretending to be something she wasn't to please others. Jack Dawson is like Jack Twist because he's the one that freed Rose, just like Jack frees Ennis, they brought out in their love the real person hidden behind that wall. So the double meaning in the poster I would say is it's resemblance to Titanic, and it's the looking away with downcast eyes, the feeling of sadness because the lovers are forced apart by external circumstances.
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I think the poster for the movie shows a lot of symbolism, and I like how it intentionally resembles the Titanic poster. Notice how Jack and Ennis are analagous to Rose and Jack from Titanic. Ennis is in the same position as Rose, because Rose, like him, was the closed-up and trapped one, always pretending to be something she wasn't to please others. Jack Dawson is like Jack Twist because he's the one that freed Rose, just like Jack frees Ennis, they brought out in their love the real person hidden behind that wall. So the double meaning in the poster I would say is it's resemblance to Titanic, and it's the looking away with downcast eyes, the feeling of sadness because the lovers are forced apart by external circumstances.
Yes, the BBM poster was indeed modeled after the one for Titanic. Though it is an image rather than a line from the ss/movie, it does try to bring up the image of timeless love by direct association...
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I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.
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I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.
Yes,you're right;and I have sometimes have this feeling too...IMO Ennis,insecure as he was,felt always that their love was something always to recover,to heal,to maintain and to grow,like an never-ending context-to call it in some way...-.He was never sure of this love because he was never sure of deserving it;even if I have always thought too that the fact that Jack had leave him would have been a kind of relief for him somehow.
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Beautifully said Athena. :)
MPJ, I agree with you both that Ennis probably never thought he deserved Jack's love. He just didn't see himself as special enough to warrant that kind of lifelong devotion. But even though Jack leaving him might give him relief in one way (not having to deal with that side of himself and juggle two worlds at one time) or even two (not having to try to live up to that love), it would have crushed him at the same time. Once they'd fallen for each other, their fates were inexorably tied to each other. As much as their situation pained them both, one of them losing the other would have been the ultimate devastation. As Ennis found out only too well. :-\\
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I think the poster for the movie shows a lot of symbolism, and I like how it intentionally resembles the Titanic poster. Notice how Jack and Ennis are analagous to Rose and Jack from Titanic. Ennis is in the same position as Rose, because Rose, like him, was the closed-up and trapped one, always pretending to be something she wasn't to please others. Jack Dawson is like Jack Twist because he's the one that freed Rose, just like Jack frees Ennis, they brought out in their love the real person hidden behind that wall. So the double meaning in the poster I would say is it's resemblance to Titanic, and it's the looking away with downcast eyes, the feeling of sadness because the lovers are forced apart by external circumstances.
Wow, I just found the recent additions to this thread, and it's amazing. That's a really good parallel to draw between the two movies. I never really liked Titanic for some reason, perhaps because I never connected with Rose (for obvious reasons) nor Jack Dawson, either. Although I admired his talents and tenacity, there was never the resonance that I had with Ennis. Your pointing the similarities between the two set of lovers made sense. I will have to watch Titanic again with fresh eyes. :t)
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I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.
I think you are right. I suspect that is a common feeling among those who have low self-esteem from a childhood of neglect and missing out on being loved. Ennis was definitely unaware of the love that Cassie had for him, until in the diner, then it dawned on him that he was loved, he was worthy of love, and that he was unaware of being loved. That's the turning point, in my opinion, when he felt lighter, and happier, sending off the post card to Jack (notice the uncharacteristic wordiness of it), and even on that sunny day, light stepping into the post office to retrieve his mail. It was the roller-coaster ride of feeling loved, and losing love, so close together that made it so painful, and what Heath so masterfully portrayed.
The culmination of Ennis' discovery that he was worthy of love was, of course, his discovery of the two shirts, the confirmation that for twenty years, he had been loved and never really knew it, this thing with no reins, that he only felt, but could not articulate.
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Beautifully said Athena. :)
MPJ, I agree with you both that Ennis probably never thought he deserved Jack's love. He just didn't see himself as special enough to warrant that kind of lifelong devotion. But even though Jack leaving him might give him relief in one way (not having to deal with that side of himself and juggle two worlds at one time) or even two (not having to try to live up to that love), it would have crushed him at the same time. Once they'd fallen for each other, their fates were inexorably tied to each other. As much as their situation pained them both, one of them losing the other would have been the ultimate devastation. As Ennis found out only too well. :-\\
Yes, I don't believe that Ennis would have felt any relief if Jack left him. He would be completely devastated and would crumble. Ennis spoke out of frustration just like Jack did when he told him he wished he could quit him. Neither one really meant those things, what they meant is something entirely different. Ennis had quit jobs and scheduled his life to be around Jack, because Jack was all that mattered to him. That definitely showed that he could never imagine his life without Jack. And all that time, he was only living for those few weeks a year. The rest of the time, he just had the memories of the previous times and the anticipation of the next ones, as well as his thoughts of what he felt for Jack and what Jack felt for him. At the end of that last trip, they looked back and realized how much pain and sadness they had in their lives being apart for all that time, only feeling alive a few times a year. I feel that Ennis sometimes thought he was not worthy of Jack's love, or how could anyone love him like that, and why. It was something he never thought could happen to him, but in the summer of 1963 it did, and once true love begins it is eternal. He had found something wonderful, but had to be miserable because of his fear. He kept his relationship with Jack a secret because that was the safe way. And in the end, he had to live the rest of his life without Jack.
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"Ennis spoke out of frustration just like Jack did when he told him he wished he could quit him. Neither one really meant those things, what they meant is something entirely different."
Agreed.
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I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.
Oh wow. Thsi makes perfect sense to me...
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I've always felt that when Ennis responds to Jack on the last trip after Jack told him out of frustration "I wish I could quit you", I always felt that Ennis saying while starting to cry "Well why don't you then? Why don't you let me be?" I always felt that what he's really saying there is "Jack, why do you love me this much? What is there about me that's so special that you go through all this for me?" I think Ennis asked himself sometimes what Jack saw in him, because he had never thought that anyone could truly love him like that.
Now you've gone & done it.... :_( :_( :_( :_(
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Sometimes we have talked about both of them clothings color;they usually wear in earth and air colors,as a reflect of their respective personalities(it's to say,brown and white in Ennis,blue and black in Jack). And also about how these colors in clothings change in Ennis case,almost always when Jack is not by his side (for example,in the conversation with Cassie scene)..Only there's an scene where he wears also in blue when Jack is with him; in the scene of the argument by the river.And even we could say that he's more "in Jack's style"then,because he tries to show his innest fears and thoughts before his lover,maybe for the first and last time.So,is he nearest to Jack then,not only in a physical,but also moral sense of the word?.
There's also an scene where colors meaning plays an important role in the story;the one in Twists home.Everything is in blue or grey,from the house itself to the walls,specially in Jack's room.Mrs.Twist wears a blue jacket and a grey apron,her eyes are blue,but warm and compassionate in comparison with Old Man Twist icy blue eyes;even Ennis wears again in grey and blue,maybe because now Jack is not by the side,this time forever.
In painting,they say that blue is sorrow color and even teachers advice to put a blue shade before painting the rest of the colors if we want to represent sorrow and loss.I think in these last and terribly painful BBM scenes,these feelings are all over the environment,so Ang Lee didn't choose these colors without thinking on their meaning.
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Interesting comment about the role and symbolism of colors in the scene in LF. Even in the scene outside the house, the greens are muted by what seems like the colors of fall or early spring -- more browns, light straw colors: the color of dead things. Set againt the drab color of the house and the blue of the sky, the overall effect is mournful...
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And interesting comment too yours about the color of earth in this scene;really,they're the ones from fall,the season when everything prepares for winter,for the death of nature somehow.It's as if the land that had seen Jack be born,wanted to tell him goodbye with its most mournful and sad shades...And at the same time,it's like the triomph of who have their foot on earth over these ones who believe that something can be changed,like Jack did,don't you think so?.
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And interesting comment too yours about the color of earth in this scene;really,they're the ones from fall,the season when everything prepares for winter,for the death of nature somehow.It's as if the land that had seen Jack be born,wanted to tell him goodbye with its most mournful and sad shades...And at the same time,it's like the triomph of who have their foot on earth over these ones who believe that something can be changed,like Jack did,don't you think so?.
I think the who sequence of scenes in LF are some of the saddest and most intense scenes in the entire movie, and not just because of the action, but everything that surrounds it: the colors, the music, the austerity in both props and emotions. If there is a mental picture of sadness and mourning, it would be these scenes.
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This may have been mentioned already but to me the most profound double meaning occurs when Ennis gets back to camp late having encountered the bear and he and Jack discuss the meagre food supply now left.
Ennis is content to "stick with beans" just like he sticks with denying and hiding his true feelings.
Jack on the other hand says "Well, I won't" . I won't make do with second best and deny myself what I really want, whether it be mutton over beans or a real gay relationship over a pretend straight one.
As it happens the food problem is solved in another way when Ennis shoots an elk.
These two scenes advance their friendship to the point where in a similar way maybe a relationship is possible.
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This may have been mentioned already but to me the most profound double meaning occurs when Ennis gets back to camp late having encountered the bear and he and Jack discuss the meagre food supply now left.
Ennis is content to "stick with beans" just like he sticks with denying and hiding his true feelings.
Jack on the other hand says "Well, I won't" . I won't make do with second best and deny myself what I really want, whether it be mutton over beans or a real gay relationship over a pretend straight one.
As it happens the food problem is solved in another way when Ennis shoots an elk.
These two scenes advance their friendship to the point where in a similar way maybe a relationship is possible.
perarduaadastra, your take on the "stick with beans" is spot on. That is how I see it too. Thanks for sharing it.
They did end up not killing sheep but an elk. I do like the compromise.
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perarduaadastra, your take on the "stick with beans" is spot on. That is how I see it too. Thanks for sharing it.
They did end up not killing sheep but an elk. I do like the compromise.
I second. Thanks perarduaadastra. I think that this indeed encapsulates a lot of what it truly good and truly difficult in their relationship: Jack sort of pushing Ennis out of complacency, and Ennis going outside his comfort zone for the sake of Jack.
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This may have been mentioned already but to me the most profound double meaning occurs when Ennis gets back to camp late having encountered the bear and he and Jack discuss the meagre food supply now left.
Ennis is content to "stick with beans" just like he sticks with denying and hiding his true feelings.
Jack on the other hand says "Well, I won't" . I won't make do with second best and deny myself what I really want, whether it be mutton over beans or a real gay relationship over a pretend straight one.
As it happens the food problem is solved in another way when Ennis shoots an elk.
These two scenes advance their friendship to the point where in a similar way maybe a relationship is possible.
I second. Thanks perarduaadastra. I think that this indeed encapsulates a lot of what it truly good and truly difficult in their relationship: Jack sort of pushing Ennis out of complacency, and Ennis going outside his comfort zone for the sake of Jack.
Thank you for your post,perarduaadastra,and welcome,by the way ¡ :) I think this scene is rather important,first because it shows what you say; that Jack doesn't conform with what life gives to him,no matter if it's the kind of food they have to eat or the kind of relationship they are going to have.Jack is a person who hope for more in his life,and fights to get it; on the other hand,Ennis is always the conformist,who accepts all what the situation is able to offer him,without a word against it.In sum,it's a good resume of how both of them are and how their relationship is going to be according to each of them reactions and behaviours,IMO.
And second,because I have always seen,as Ethan says,a kind of implicit compromise ,because it's the scene where we can see for sure that their friendship is arriving to another point little by little;we see it in Jack's face and gestures,in Ennis reaction when their fingers touch,and,of course,in Ennis accepting in shouting the elk because "it's what Jack wishes".And,joining it with the first point,we see also that is always Jack who takes the initiative somehow and how Ennis leaves his comformism before this -so wished-pushing by Jack.
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Thank you for your post,perarduaadastra,and welcome,by the way ¡ :) I think this scene is rather important,first because it shows what you say; that Jack doesn't conform with what life gives to him,no matter if it's the kind of food they have to eat or the kind of relationship they are going to have.Jack is a person who hope for more in his life,and fights to get it; on the other hand,Ennis is always the conformist,who accepts all what the situation is able to offer him,without a word against it.In sum,it's a good resume of how both of them are and how their relationship is going to be according to each of them reactions and behaviours,IMO.
And second,because I have always seen,as Ethan says,a kind of implicit compromise ,because it's the scene where we can see for sure that their friendship is arriving to another point little by little;we see it in Jack's face and gestures,in Ennis reaction when their fingers touch,and,of course,in Ennis accepting in shouting the elk because "it's what Jack wishes".And,joining it with the first point,we see also that is always Jack who takes the initiative somehow and how Ennis leaves his comformism before this -so wished-pushing by Jack.
MPJ, well said. Thanks. I love your explanation of how their relationship evolves. I even adore when Ennis stepped up to shoot the elk after being tired of Jack's dumba** missing. ;D
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Thanks for your thoughts, nice to share ideas. I enjoy reading the forum posts but, with no disrespect, have found some of the arguments for double meanings suggested here to be very tenuous.
The" beans, mutton,or elk " scenes however to me form a pivotal point in the film, no doubt about it.
Things can be sorted out, a compromise can work, we can be friends, let's go for it.
If the film were a symphony this would be a key change and start of the development section.
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I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.
Here's the link. Enjoy!
https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68 (https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68)
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Thanks for your thoughts, nice to share ideas. I enjoy reading the forum posts but, with no disrespect, have found some of the arguments for double meanings suggested here to be very tenuous.
No disrespect at all. Glad you enjoy reading them and feel free to share your views on some of those you thought to be very tenuous. After all, this is a discussion forum of BBM. :c)
I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.
Here's the link. Enjoy!
https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68 (https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68)
loreen, thanks for passing the link. Do you know who did the narration? Can you please provide credits if any? Thanks!
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Hey, Ethan!
Glad you like it. Well, the member who posted this link said that it's foreverinawe's presentation. ??? That's all I know. :c)
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Thank you for your post,perarduaadastra,and welcome,by the way ¡ :) I think this scene is rather important,first because it shows what you say; that Jack doesn't conform with what life gives to him,no matter if it's the kind of food they have to eat or the kind of relationship they are going to have.Jack is a person who hope for more in his life,and fights to get it; on the other hand,Ennis is always the conformist,who accepts all what the situation is able to offer him,without a word against it.In sum,it's a good resume of how both of them are and how their relationship is going to be according to each of them reactions and behaviours,IMO.
And second,because I have always seen,as Ethan says,a kind of implicit compromise ,because it's the scene where we can see for sure that their friendship is arriving to another point little by little;we see it in Jack's face and gestures,in Ennis reaction when their fingers touch,and,of course,in Ennis accepting in shouting the elk because "it's what Jack wishes".And,joining it with the first point,we see also that is always Jack who takes the initiative somehow and how Ennis leaves his comformism before this -so wished-pushing by Jack.
In a sense, one can easily mistake Ennis's attitude as being a push-over. He certainly wasn't. He was a push-over for Jack -- except for that one last thing that he withheld out of fear...
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Thanks for your thoughts, nice to share ideas. I enjoy reading the forum posts but, with no disrespect, have found some of the arguments for double meanings suggested here to be very tenuous.
The" beans, mutton,or elk " scenes however to me form a pivotal point in the film, no doubt about it.
Things can be sorted out, a compromise can work, we can be friends, let's go for it.
If the film were a symphony this would be a key change and start of the development section.
Very nice metaphor. :)
Indeed, some suggestions may strike us as a bit tenuous, but I guess that's part of what makes this interesting -- sort of getting blindsided by something we never really considered and examining why we didn't or choose not to...
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I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.
Here's the link. Enjoy!
https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68 (https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68)
Thanks loreen. :) I'll have to see this after work!
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I found this link in DC forum and watched the presentation. It is stunning and striking!!! It lasts cca 17 minutes, but it's more than worthy watching. Although it's very very sad, I especially liked the explanation of the last shot, the field through the trailer window.
Here's the link. Enjoy!
https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68 (https://rcpt.yousendit.com/773708072/33646053501c7c41011ab28a1aa39c68)
I'm so sorry for the third time,but I cannot watch this link... :_(
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MPJ, well said. Thanks. I love your explanation of how their relationship evolves. I even adore when Ennis stepped up to shoot the elk after being tired of Jack's dumba** missing. ;D
Thanks to you ¡ Yes,I also adore how "forced" is Ennis to do things such as shooting the elk,for pleasing Jack...I think he loved to be tired ¡ ;)
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I'm so sorry for the third time,but I cannot watch this link... :_(
Oh, but it shouldn't be the problem. You have to download it. It takes 7 minutes for downloading and it is really special thing to see!!! Please, try again! ^f^
OMG, I tried now and it really said it's error.
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Some persons has said that the fact that Jack is totally naked while washing the clothings after FNIT is a kind of purification for his "sins".Because,they declare,he could be washing them with his clothings,maybe with roll up trousers for not dunk them,but there was no need to be naked...So,they suppose it's a purification of his whole body and soul because somehow he felt also kind of guilty for what had happenned the night before.What's your opinion?.
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Hmm, I never saw it that way. :s) First, I think when you only have a couple changes of clothes it's natural to wash them all at the same time and therefore do it naked. Especially when you know there's no one around for miles.
And second, I don't think there was ever anything in either the short story or the movie to indicate that Jack felt guilty about FNIT. I think his "See you for supper" was guardedly hopeful and his posture on the hill during the "I'm not queer" conversation was tentative and careful. I always believed that he said "Me neither" either because he truly didn't think of them as queer or not queer or anything in between but simply as 'them' in their own unique situation, or because he knew that was what Ennis needed to hear, regardless of what Jack himself might have thought on that subject.
It doesn't mean those other people are wrong though. This is just the way that I see it. ^f^
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Some persons has said that the fact that Jack is totally naked while washing the clothings after FNIT is a kind of purification for his "sins".Because,they declare,he could be washing them with his clothings,maybe with roll up trousers for not dunk them,but there was no need to be naked...So,they suppose it's a purification of his whole body and soul because somehow he felt also kind of guilty for what had happenned the night before.What's your opinion?.
Interesting. I interpret it more like this: at this point, he has "exposed" himself to Ennis, and become vulnerable -- naked, in the metaphorical sense...
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Interesting. I interpret it more like this: at this point, he has "exposed" himself to Ennis, and become vulnerable -- naked, in the metaphorical sense...
He has exposed himself both in body and soul,specially in soul;now,Ennis knows what and how he feels for him,so it's a way of showing all his weaknesses.However,he also knows at that point Ennis',who has also showed himself in his innest feelings...
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I know that Ang Lee toyed with the idea of showing Jack and Randall together -- so as to indicate that Jack was perhaps getting over Ennis. I am glad that Ang Lee cut out those scenes with Jack, Randall, and the mechanics. It is more faithful to the story to leave some ambiguity. Even though Jack's father said that there were plans to bring Randall back with him, that still leaves room for uncertainly.
To have seen Jack with Randal would have killed me. But perhaps this is the most tragic possibility of them all -- the death of Jack's love for Ennis.
:( ..... Reading this thread I just stumbled across THIS .... that's how I see it, too. OT of the "double meanings" but THIS point has always been and certainly will always be the most tragic one for me ... even more than Jacks death itself. There will always be the aspect (unlikely but it can't be denied IMO) that Jacks love for Ennis died (we all don't want to believe that, of course :_( :_( :_( ). Now that Ennis knows about Jacks plans to move to Lightning Flat with Randall, he can't be sure whether Jake would have dropped their next meeting - IMO. He (and we) will never know ... and that's what makes the whole story indescribably painful. If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it :_(
Sorry for being OT again but I couldn't hold back after reading tpes comment. It always strikes when I read about this point :_(
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He has exposed himself both in body and soul,specially in soul;now,Ennis knows what and how he feels for him,so it's a way of showing all his weaknesses.However,he also knows at that point Ennis',who has also showed himself in his innest feelings...
I guess one can also read some meaning into the washing and beating of clothes...
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I am sorry, BBS if the comment raised some uncomfortable/unpleasant possibilities in your mind. And yes, the uncertainty in the last meeting hangs on Ennis's head like the proverbial sword, with the sharp, cutting edge of memory.
:( ..... Reading this thread I just stumbled across THIS .... that's how I see it, too. OT of the "double meanings" but THIS point has always been and certainly will always be the most tragic one for me ... even more than Jacks death itself. There will always be the aspect (unlikely but it can't be denied IMO) that Jacks love for Ennis died (we all don't want to believe that, of course :_( :_( :_( ). Now that Ennis knows about Jacks plans to move to Lightning Flat with Randall, he can't be sure whether Jake would have dropped their next meeting - IMO. He (and we) will never know ... and that's what makes the whole story indescribably painful. If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it :_(
Sorry for being OT again but I couldn't hold back after reading tpes comment. It always strikes when I read about this point :_(
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I am sorry, BBS if the comment raised some uncomfortable/unpleasant possibilities in your mind. And yes, the uncertainty in the last meeting hangs on Ennis's head like the proverbial sword, with the sharp, cutting edge of memory.
:( .. oh yes...
....but no, tpe :), it was not your comment that raised that uncomfortable possibility in my mind (Or did I get you wrong here - in that case I apologize;-) - It was one of my first thoughts after watching the film and I said in in one of my first posts here in the forum.... I was just reminded of this sad point. And I add: If we consider the possibility of Jacks love that ended we would indeed have a double meaning - Jacks physical death and the "death" of his love for Ennis ... -- but %(, I/we don't want to follow up this thought any further, don't we ;) :_( ????
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Anyhow,this is a thought we won't ever know for sure,maybe luckily...However,I'd add that a part of Jack had died before his physical death and,maybe,the beginning of the end of his love for Ennis.(in this case,we could join it with the thread about Jack's self destructive tendences).It was October or November,when earth prepares for winter and everything seems to die,when Jack felt more lonely before his death; a mere coincidence?... :_(
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:( .. oh yes...
....but no, tpe :), it was not your comment that raised that uncomfortable possibility in my mind (Or did I get you wrong here - in that case I apologize;-) - It was one of my first thoughts after watching the film and I said in in one of my first posts here in the forum.... I was just reminded of this sad point. And I add: If we consider the possibility of Jacks love that ended we would indeed have a double meaning - Jacks physical death and the "death" of his love for Ennis ... -- but %(, I/we don't want to follow up this thought any further, don't we ;) :_( ????
Certainly, there is more than one way to die! And death goes beyond the physical.
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Many times we have talked about the meaning of colors in BBM; concretely,about how Ennis colors are similar to Earth ones and Jack's similar to air's.As a reflect of their way of being,contrasted but complementary,as ying and yang.Well then,an Spanish Brokie has said that in the last confrontation scene,Jack's shirt is also blue,but in a rather darker shade; as symbolising that his playful,funny and full of life way of being had been vanishing and only remained the bitterness in him.What's your opinion about this?.
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Many times we have talked about the meaning of colors in BBM; concretely,about how Ennis colors are similar to Earth ones and Jack's similar to air's.As a reflect of their way of being,contrasted but complementary,as ying and yang.Well then,an Spanish Brokie has said that in the last confrontation scene,Jack's shirt is also blue,but in a rather darker shade; as symbolising that his playful,funny and full of life way of being had been vanishing and only remained the bitterness in him.What's your opinion about this?.
I haven`t noticed a darker color of blue shirts. Color of clothes Ennis and Jack really showing their character.Ennis is a quiet, shy and realistic, Jack's emotional, restless and playful spirit ... The opposition is led to their relationship. Ennis with his white hat and beige clothes, and Jack with black hat and clothes of blue and green color (which looks beautiful <^() clearly show their character and attitude to what they are and what they feel. Although I do not believe that the darker color of the clothes Jack shows his emotions, I think this is just the camera ... I will watch this scene again ... "s;"
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For me, the colors evoke the contrasts between night and day, and between earth and sky. Also, it shows Ennis grounded in the earth, while Jack's dreams are the stuff of air. For Jack, especially, the colors conjure the night -- the realm of dreams.
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Another point I'm almost sure has been treated here is the symbolism of the open window in Ennis trailer at the movie's last moments.I know somebody has said that it probably mean Ennis opening to the world outside,one of the things he could swear to Jack's memory in these infamous and enigmatic words.Others believe all the contrary precisely;that he was going to live inside his little world,with his memories and nothing or almost nothing more while the real life is outside his trailer.But,have you realised that the landscape we can see through that window is completely different from Brokeback or the other mountains they went fishing?Does this mean a change in Ennis behaviour and consequent way of living his life?.What's your opinion?.
As regards to this point,my Brokie coworker says that it's an open window to hope,because it's the only object that remains before us once Ennis has disappeared of the screen,as if someone wants us to put our attention in it.A hope and an attention that for him could mean that Jack could appear in this path that leads to Ennis trailer,leaving the end open to the viewer's point of view-as so many things in the movie-.I think it's to have too much imagination %&) ,but it's true that some of the great points of the movie remain open to our perception,so why not this one too?.Anything to say about that?.Thanks.
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I think nobody has said anything about this,or maybe is anything I have imagined?...When our boys are coming down from the mountain,we see them very silent over their horses;Ennis is wearing a new shirt that we haven't seen before and we won't see anymore after that and,according to what I can remember,so is Jack.Can this suggest that they are going to live a new life far from BBM,reflected in some new clothes they didn't wear in the mountain?.I don't know if this makes sense...
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I think your metaphor makes sense: there was no turning back to the paradise of the mountains. "As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall " says the SS and the screenplay adds "..more emotion stirring in him than he can handle".
Though Jack did wear that shirt, at least once, before while Aguirre was visiting the mountains about Jack's uncle.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pCx2hkxV4hjl_5E4z4StTGgae4UjO8w_FD0-18CLT3PsC_k3aZFkBtNsVkKprR-EUyol5sHfv1dV_QljY66EzRNLG9csO2nkK%2FShirt_I.jpg&hash=3adf5f9d887696c17dcbf285ee205b6d116717ef)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p5qaP3r3R_DlUnT7rLrSEObzzh2RuxKh4AMGQw1Zrg89xmA4RCx6JQsVyHQ3kT5C8aJkSuYgUYTcoazue9BNJmg%2FShirt_II.jpg&hash=f57223550cc7da292b185a16b9e6a6158c6f80be)
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Or am I 'colourblind' here? :*(
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I'm with rdx here. It was a "new" shirt on Ennis and definitely can point out the new life he was about to enter.(That's a great parallel, MPJ!!!) But Jack had the same shirt as before. He obviously wants to continue with the same life style... ::)
This scene is so sad... so very sad. When the most beautiful time in someone's life is over!!! :_( :_( :_(
:m}
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I think nobody has said anything about this,or maybe is anything I have imagined?...When our boys are coming down from the mountain,we see them very silent over their horses;Ennis is wearing a new shirt that we haven't seen before and we won't see anymore after that and,according to what I can remember,so is Jack.Can this suggest that they are going to live a new life far from BBM,reflected in some new clothes they didn't wear in the mountain?.I don't know if this makes sense...
Wow..never thought that before and I certainly agree with your metaphor.
I'm with rdx here. It was a "new" shirt on Ennis and definitely can point out the new life he was about to enter.(That's a great parallel, MPJ!!!) But Jack had the same shirt as before. He obviously wants to continue with the same life style... ::)
This scene is so sad... so very sad. When the most beautiful time in someone's life is over!!! :_( :_( :_(
:m}
Jack had the same shirt and Ennis's old shirt as your take on continuing the same style. Sad indeed.
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Wow..never thought that before and I certainly agree with your metaphor.
Jack had the same shirt and Ennis's old shirt as your take on continuing the same style. Sad indeed.
O0 Excellent observation! Maybe the most powerful.
Hmm... in BBM there are so many many little things like this one, a metaphors, a parallels, double meanings... and I wonder if these are done deliberately by it's author(s), or it is just a feature of a master-piece- When so many tiny pieces fall just into the right places and everything matches perfectly without author's deliberate intervention? My guess is that no author can think of all these, but they create things so ingeniously, that finally we have a master piece that we can talk about for years and never got tired. There's always something new and amazing in it. :)
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I think your metaphor makes sense: there was no turning back to the paradise of the mountains. "As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall " says the SS and the screenplay adds "..more emotion stirring in him than he can handle".
Though Jack did wear that shirt, at least once, before while Aguirre was visiting the mountains about Jack's uncle.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkcanig.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pCx2hkxV4hjl_5E4z4StTGgae4UjO8w_FD0-18CLT3PsC_k3aZFkBtNsVkKprR-EUyol5sHfv1dV_QljY66EzRNLG9csO2nkK%2FShirt_I.jpg&hash=3adf5f9d887696c17dcbf285ee205b6d116717ef)(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.blu.livefilestore.com%2Fy1p5qaP3r3R_DlUnT7rLrSEObzzh2RuxKh4AMGQw1Zrg89xmA4RCx6JQsVyHQ3kT5C8aJkSuYgUYTcoazue9BNJmg%2FShirt_II.jpg&hash=f57223550cc7da292b185a16b9e6a6158c6f80be)
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Or am I 'colourblind' here? :*(
%( No,rdx,you're not "colourblind" here and me neither.I only said that according to what I remembered,Jack was wearing a new shirt,but it's clear enough that I remembered bad.So,it's a matter of bad memory,not of bad view ¡. ;D
I'm with rdx here. It was a "new" shirt on Ennis and definitely can point out the new life he was about to enter.(That's a great parallel, MPJ!!!) But Jack had the same shirt as before. He obviously wants to continue with the same life style... ::)
This scene is so sad... so very sad. When the most beautiful time in someone's life is over!!! :_( :_( :_(
:m}
I agree completely with the shade you add to the subject here,Loreen ¡.And :t) for your words too ¡.Yes,Ennis wears a new shirt but not Jack...It can be the translation into clothings and images of what we see in the lasso's scene,when Jack is happier than Ennis because he believes they are going to see each other down the mountain,while the second one knows for sure this isn't going to happen...Jack wants to continue with the same life style,so the same shirt.Ennis won't continue it,so he changes his clothings,that,moreover,has a darker brown than his shirt up to that moment...Maybe this means that he comes back to be with his feet on the ground?Since brown colours mean Earth and the attachment to this Ennis has,while Jack has blue,that means the air... :s)
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O0 Excellent observation! Maybe the most powerful.
Hmm... in BBM there are so many many little things like this one, a metaphors, a parallels, double meanings... and I wonder if these are done deliberately by it's author(s), or it is just a feature of a master-piece- When so many tiny pieces fall just into the right places and everything matches perfectly without author's deliberate intervention? My guess is that no author can think of all these, but they create things so ingeniously, that finally we have a master piece that we can talk about for years and never got tired. There's always something new and amazing in it. :)
:clap: :clap: :clap: I agree totally and deeply ¡.As any masterpiece,there're as many interpretations and shades as viewers.
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I hate to be the down-to-earth and practical one in this discussion, but if it is a "new" shirt that Ennis is wearing, how did he get hold of it?
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Yes, it's a wonderful metaphor MPJ pointed out here and I can very well understand ... If it were up to me I would also like to see Jacks old shirt/Ennis new one in exactly this meaning !!! BUT nevertheless this discussion confuses me a bit :s)
Tell me if I'm wrong but - IMO Ennis COULD ONLY wear another/new shirt when they were leaving the mountain!! His shirt, bloody from the fight, was taken and hidden by Jack. The central theme that runs through the story ....! We as the viewers can't know this in that moment but we get to know it when Ennis says he is missing his shirt in the farewell scene :_(
I don't think that two guys would drag a lot of clothes for changing up on a mountain ;D so Ennis would probably also wear his used shirt even for the last day but now he HAD to take a new one out of his baggage ... right now I don't know whether or how often Ennis changed shirts before that scene ... but for me his wearing of a new shirt here should only give an OBVIOUS hint for the fact that Jack had taken his shirt ...
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?? :s)
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Yes, it's a wonderful metaphor MPJ pointed out here and I can very well understand ... If it were up to me I would also like to see Jacks old shirt/Ennis new one in exactly this meaning !!! BUT nevertheless this discussion confuses me a bit :s)
Tell me if I'm wrong but - IMO Ennis COULD ONLY wear another/new shirt when they were leaving the mountain!! His shirt, bloody from the fight, was taken and hidden by Jack. The central theme that runs through the story ....! We as the viewers can't know this in that moment but we get to know it when Ennis says he is missing his shirt in the farewell scene :_(
I don't think that two guys would drag a lot of clothes for changing up on a mountain ;D so Ennis would probably also wear his used shirt even for the last day but now he HAD to take a new one out of his baggage ... right now I don't know whether or how often Ennis changed shirts before that scene ... but for me his wearing of a new shirt here should only give an OBVIOUS hint for the fact that Jack had taken his shirt ...
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?? :s)
At one scene we saw Jack washing shirt, but as I remember it was Ennis's... so they were definitely changing shirts before too. It is impossible to have only one shirt while working on the mountain. So surely they changed shirts before, and surely it was Jack who caused Ennis to wear another one while going down, but this time it all had a different meaning.
The fight on the mountain was a clear sign that Ennis is not for continuance of their "thing". If not for the fight, both of them would've wore the same shirts as before. But they didn't. Ennis's rage and "message" he gave to Jack showed on them - Ennis was wearing the darker shirt (which is again so brilliant idea of MPJ), a new one for the new life he decided to chose. Jack was wearing his own, which indicated that he felt comfortable in his skin (I guess). But ( as Ethan also brilliantly noticed) Jack also took Ennis's, he took Ennis the way he was on the mountain, and he wanted that same Ennis, he wanted to hug him forever. And he did! :_( :_( :_(
Huh... yeah... I guess that it was a wrong tree! ;D At least IMHO. ;)
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I hate to be the down-to-earth and practical one in this discussion, but if it is a "new" shirt that Ennis is wearing, how did he get hold of it?
Well, the quotes mean that it wasn't really new, but not seen before. Maybe he wore it, but we didn't see it, so for us is new, but in fact it was "new". ;D
:i
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I agree completely with the shade you add to the subject here,Loreen ¡.And :t) for your words too ¡.Yes,Ennis wears a new shirt but not Jack...It can be the translation into clothings and images of what we see in the lasso's scene,when Jack is happier than Ennis because he believes they are going to see each other down the mountain,while the second one knows for sure this isn't going to happen...Jack wants to continue with the same life style,so the same shirt.Ennis won't continue it,so he changes his clothings,that,moreover,has a darker brown than his shirt up to that moment...Maybe this means that he comes back to be with his feet on the ground?Since brown colours mean Earth and the attachment to this Ennis has,while Jack has blue,that means the air... :s)
O0 O0 O0
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I'm sorry, but Ennis's "new" shirt is not such, we can see it before and after FNIT, Ennis wearing it: white with squares brown / reds. We they remember Jack was washing the Ennis' shirt white with blue squares.
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I'm sorry, but Ennis's "new" shirt is not such, we can see it before and after FNIT, Ennis wearing it: white with squares brown / reds. We they remember Jack was washing the Ennis' shirt white with blue squares.
Gosh,my nice teory on the ground ¡ %&) (t) I haven't seen it after so much time and so many views of the movie ¡... :i But I keep on having it because if someone as myop as me hasn't seen that shirt before is because Ennis is wearing his jacket over it.But when they coming down from the mountain(it's to say,when they will need to make face to reality...) is the first and only time we see Ennis wearing it without anything else over (maybe is the time when he will have to show himself the way he must be,according to his way of thinking, before society in a whole,not before another boy in the mountain's loneliness?).As a matter of fact,this shirt is rather darker than the former one,more "earthly" that is the way Ennis is feeling now;during their time on BBM,he had that shirt hidden because he was giving a more meaningful place to the atraction he felt more and more towards Jack.Maybe it's a coincidence,but it's fairly nice,isn't it?...
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Huh... yeah... I guess that it was a wrong tree! ;D At least IMHO. ;)
;D
You are right, and .... I noticed that wrong tree ;) shortly after I posted. Generally speaking, it was too stupid
to hint Brokies on the background of the shirt scene %&) %&) !!!!
Sorry that I've talked nonsense ...maybe I should only post when I'm rested {b}
And I feel sorry for MPJ's theory thrown overboard, at least in parts ;) It's a nice idea, though !!!
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Gosh,my nice teory on the ground ¡ %&) (t) I haven't seen it after so much time and so many views of the movie ¡...
I'm so sorry, MPJ, I don't want to be a nuisance. :-\\ Ennis even wears this shirt at the scene with the basque, the bear and when he returns with Jack waiting without knowing what has happened
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;D
You are right, and .... I noticed that wrong tree ;) shortly after I posted. Generally speaking, it was too stupid
to hint Brokies on the background of the shirt scene %&) %&) !!!!
Sorry that I've talked nonsense ...maybe I should only post when I'm rested {b}
And I feel sorry for MPJ's theory thrown overboard, at least in parts ;) It's a nice idea, though !!!
You're not talking nonsenses; everybody is giving his or her opinion here or,at least,they see or wanted to see how things happen between our boys. :) On the other hand,if you have barked up the wrong tree,I have barked up all a jungle ¡ ;D
I'm so sorry, MPJ, I don't want to be a nuisance. :-\\ Ennis even wears this shirt at the scene with the basque, the bear and when he returns with Jack waiting without knowing what has happened
Oh,please,don't worry about this ¡ It's me who should have seen better how Ennis was wearing in these scenes...but between you and me,I will be able to survive ¡ ;)