Topic: Randall

[tpe]

And the fact that this was the excuse he and Ennis had used - fishin' buddies. OK for two men to go off and fish and drink - very macho! Though Lureen wasn't impressed - she complained about Jack's going so far to fish and also said disapprovingly that he drank a lot. I wonder whether she's have though Randall preferable to Ennis on the grounds that he was more educated and more closely linked with managing - if there had to be someone  male in Jack's life would Randall be more socially acceptable?

Yes, it m,ust hjave been perfect for Jack.  Surely, Lureen would have found Randall more acceptable than Jack going all the way up to see Ennis.  But I do wonder whether at this point Lureen and Jack had ceased to care what the other one was doing -- well, maybe NOT Jack, as he would still probably try to keep face for the sake of their son.  Still, Randall was the easier choice...

[tpe]

We coud'nt help but see who was doing all the talking CSC ! I, like  you never really looked at what else  was conspiring between Randall and Jack the first few times watching this scene . LaShawn was so distracting and had my full attention!  to her acting credit  I guess. There was contarst there with LaShawn's endless chatter and the quiet "eye dance" going on between these two. Randall and Jack were doing some serious eye-contact. When Jack asked LaShawn to dance they were "fixed" on each other. Randall just seemed like a nice guy in a bad marriage just like Jack. I woud have loved to hear some of their converstions,at their meetings but unfortunately that was not to be.

I share the same sentiment.  LaShawn was so distracting that is bordered on pure genius!  It took multiple viewings for me to appreciate all the underlying things that were happening in those scenes.

When Jack was dancing with LaShawn, I was half-imagining that he was looking over her shoulder -- back to the table where Randalll was no boubt looking at him?  I don't think Jack did this, but I always get the feeling when I see that scene in my last few viewings.  Perhaps I should look at it more carefully agin to see why I get this feeling.

 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I have to agree with your comments tpe.  The acting was magnificent and VERY realistic. 
When I watch this scene I'm thinking that Jack's silence was an indication that he knew EXACTLY what Randall meant by "do a little fishin', drink a little whiskey, ya know?"  It reminded me of similar situations in my past.

Yes, Jack knew what Randal meant.  Was he surprised, or was he expecting this all along?  It is a perfect example of coded language, no?

Definitely.  A lot of us have had similar situations.  I was so interesting to see this on screen in such a realistic depiction.

[aintfoolin]

I guess it could be called caution in a way. Just sticking a toe into the water?  In case Randall had read Jack's intentions wrong then there's an out. With Jack and Ennis ,Jack did not give Ennis an "out"....( Ennis  did'nt want one anyway ) once he made up his mind .  Unlike Randall there was no verbal coded messages unless it's silence.  , but Randall became a serious threat to Ennis. More serious than he realized until Twist Sr. alluded to Randall "the ranch neighbor" and Ennis simply put  2and 2 together.  The term"the ranch neighbor" stood out for him because of he and Jack's recent converation about the ranch neighbor's wfe.

You speak fondly of your personal experience with Your "Randall" CSC, but that's the thing about this movie, it shows how it can really happen.

[ragtimecowboy]

Randall had his gaydar on and picked up on Jack's despair, not to mention those limpid pools of blue he kept gazing into which could weaken anyone on down. Jack was too crazy in love with Ennis to actually break it off. To quote part of Cher's line from the movie Moonstruck  Jack"loved him awful". Randall found a tall and hansome drink of water to quench passions thirst with.

[monicita]

I suppose your right.

I don't think there is really a wrong here.  Sure, Jack was more sex-driven.  But we can all relate to that.  We feel the same pain and the need for release.

Thanks aintfoolin for bringing this up.

I only just found this thread and have been reading it avidly! Thanks for all the interesting posts, folks....

There are several ´posts throughout the thread dealing with Jack's "being a slut" or "highly sexed". I must say I am a bit astonished by these comments. Why should we think that somebody is "abnormal" (i.e. "a slut") because he wants sex, love, tenderness? Because he gets them from more than one person? For the first time in my life, I am in a monogamous relationship and it feels good, though it scares me sometimes, I'm not used to monogamy - but I would never dare qualify somebody as a slut for wanting what Jack wanted and needed (and what I used to get from more than one person at a time). I think he wanted sex AND love. He needed it, he needed to live with somebody, not just "a couple of high altitude fucks", as he says himself.
Love is  mostly not that simple: There is not only one person, for ever, and nothing else. And there are many different kinds of love. Why shouldn't he have loved Randall? Why should we begrudge him any kind of love that he could get? There wasn't too much of it in his life, definitely.
What do you think, where does  the wish come from to have Jack love and be loved only by Ennis? Is it a kind of immaturity, wanting to believe in the simple, fairytale version of life? I think Ang Lee was very much aware of the complexities of real life and he wanted to integrate that into the movie. In my opinion, he got it right! Jack never stopped loving Ennis, but he decided he needed something else. To me that is a sign of his  growing maturity, but also of his desperation. My heart aches, when I think of him...

monicita


 

[aintfoolin]

 As I stated in another thread , There is no blame to be placed on Jack or Ennis in this story. Jack was human and reacted in a human way. He was IN love with Ennis which brings with it something a little deeper than just sex. Anybody can love anybody or anything, but to be IN love is something different to me. When your in love IMO you dont;t want your  mate with anyone else OR see yourself with anyone else either , no matter who came along. I feel Jack was in a battle, tempted by another man while going through difficult and trying times with Ennis. If  he was'nt in love Randall's tempting offer would'nt bother him as much as it did. Randall could have offered Jack anything he  wanted. Tall, Handsome,educated, with a personable charm, he would have been easy to love  BUT he was'nt who Jack wanted to biuld a life with.  He was IN love with Ennis Del Mar , did'nt need anyone else if he had  gotten Ennis to commit fully . and he was'nt looking for anyone else seriously either. He'd  already found his soulmate.  Ennis is the one who had Jack's heart, he is the one who Jack really wanted to have that sweet life with and no one else . Yep , a man with Jack's looks probably would not have problems finding  sex. I see no evidence of Randall leaving his marriage at the time so I assumed "do a little fishin" meant sex.( and sex is good)  but Jack had experienced something a little deeper and that's a deep life changing love. Randall ,as nice as he was along with Lureen were substitutes for what Jack really craved. I just wished  he had SOMEONE he could trust and confide in. Some one would'nt judge them. As always MHO.

[tpe]

I only just found this thread and have been reading it avidly! Thanks for all the interesting posts, folks....

There are several ´posts throughout the thread dealing with Jack's "being a slut" or "highly sexed". I must say I am a bit astonished by these comments. Why should we think that somebody is "abnormal" (i.e. "a slut") because he wants sex, love, tenderness? Because he gets them from more than one person? For the first time in my life, I am in a monogamous relationship and it feels good, though it scares me sometimes, I'm not used to monogamy - but I would never dare qualify somebody as a slut for wanting what Jack wanted and needed (and what I used to get from more than one person at a time). I think he wanted sex AND love. He needed it, he needed to live with somebody, not just "a couple of high altitude f***s", as he says himself.
Love is  mostly not that simple: There is not only one person, for ever, and nothing else. And there are many different kinds of love. Why shouldn't he have loved Randall? Why should we begrudge him any kind of love that he could get? There wasn't too much of it in his life, definitely.
What do you think, where does  the wish come from to have Jack love and be loved only by Ennis? Is it a kind of immaturity, wanting to believe in the simple, fairytale version of life? I think Ang Lee was very much aware of the complexities of real life and he wanted to integrate that into the movie. In my opinion, he got it right! Jack never stopped loving Ennis, but he decided he needed something else. To me that is a sign of his  growing maturity, but also of his desperation. My heart aches, when I think of him...

monicita

What you say is indeed true.  Do any of us ever forget our former lovers?  I also suspect that deep down, there is a part of us that continues to love them.  I know I do, no matter how bitter the parting.

I believe that it is part of human nature to have multiple loves -- sometimes, it is just a matter of which one is deeper, or which one is the strongest.  But this fact does not negate the ability to love others in a unique and special way. 

Although Jack loved Ennis body and soul, I must concede the personal belief that he had probably grown to love Randall for what he was.  True, he was not Ennis, but the Heart in search of love abhors a vacuum.  Jack was vulnerable.  He needed to live a life of love, without the constraints that he had struggled over for nearly 20 years.  And I think this is why Jack appreciated Randall.  He was probably willing to give Jack's dream a try.  For just this, Randall deserves our sympathy.

[tpe]

As I stated in another thread , There is no blame to be placed on Jack or Ennis in this story. Jack was human and reacted in a human way. He was IN love with Ennis which brings with it something a little deeper than just sex. Anybody can love anybody or anything, but to be IN love is something different to me. When your in love IMO you dont;t want your  mate with anyone else OR see yourself with anyone else either , no matter who came along. I feel Jack was in a battle, tempted by another man while going through difficult and trying times with Ennis. If  he was'nt in love Randall's tempting offer would'nt bother him as much as it did. Randall could have offered Jack anything he  wanted. Tall, Handsome,educated, with a personable charm, he would have been easy to love  BUT he was'nt who Jack wanted to biuld a life with.  He was IN love with Ennis Del Mar , did'nt need anyone else if he had  gotten Ennis to commit fully . and he was'nt looking for anyone else seriously either. He'd  already found his soulmate.  Ennis is the one who had Jack's heart, he is the one who Jack really wanted to have that sweet life with and no one else . Yep , a man with Jack's looks probably would not have problems finding  sex. I see no evidence of Randall leaving his marriage at the time so I assumed "do a little fishin" meant sex.( and sex is good)  but Jack had experienced something a little deeper and that's a deep life changing love. Randall ,as nice as he was along with Lureen were substitutes for what Jack really craved. I just wished  he had SOMEONE he could trust and confide in. Some one would'nt judge them. As always MHO.

Wonderfully said, aintfoolin.

Sometimes, I think it sad that is real life, many people accept second best, and frequently for very valid, understandable reasons.  I sometimes console myself with the thought that sometimes, second best flowers into something much greater. 

I sometimes wonder whether this was Jack's hope.  In life, I sense that sometimes, our greatest love is the greatest impossibility -- and the greatest love can be the source of the greatest pain.  The greatest love is frequently never meant to be.

This is what they mean by star-crossed, I guess.  People live it ever day.  They suffer for it even as we speak.

Life and love sometimes separate  -- this is I think what a lot of people mean when they say that life moves on.  For Jack and Ennis, perhaps it was an impossibility while both of them lived.  It is ironic that it was Jack's death that finally breached Ennis's Heart.  Sometimes, a love has to die in order for it to live forever.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Although Jack loved Ennis body and soul, I must concede the personal belief that he had probably grown to love Randall for what he was.  True, he was not Ennis, but the Heart in search of love abhors a vacuum.  Jack was vulnerable.  He needed to live a life of love, without the constraints that he had struggled over for nearly 20 years.  And I think this is why Jack appreciated Randall.  He was probably willing to give Jack's dream a try.  For just this, Randall deserves our sympathy.

He certainly has mine.  Randall is quite a catch in anyone's eyes.  He was just up against something that was probably bigger than he was.

[Gabester2006]

Newbie here - just saw BBM one week ago -it has such a powerful grip on me. Just mirroring other sentiments on the Jack & Randall relationship - I think Jack settled although Ennis was certainly his first choice and true love.

This brings up a question though  - please forgive me if already discussed elsewhere - what made Randall so comfortable in his proposition to Jack the night both couples met up at the dance? In some way did Jack's reputation precede him? Seems very risky to me on Randall's part. Just wondering what you all think of this. IMO in that scene, Jack seems perhaps a bit offended in those initial seconds after being asked by Randall to "go fishing" at the cabin.

Also, did Jack's 'settling' contribute to his ultimate demise? (for those who believe he was murdered) i.e. perhaps not as discrete with Randall; getting drunk (Lureen's comment: "he drank a lot"); somehow, a slow self-death?

[welshwitch]

I thought it came rather out of the blue and was a risky thing for randall to do if he had no previous inkling of Jack's secret, which made me think that there m,ay have been godssip about Jack before this. I thought the whole thing was becoming harder for jack to handle and in the end he didn;t care if he gave it all away or not, specially after that last scene with Ennis. I don;t think he's have killed himslef but one do thongs one knew might bring about one's death and not care.

[welshwitch]

Forgot to say welcome to the forum. How lovely to have seen the movie for the first time only a week ago and nice that you were moved as so many of us have been.

[Gabester2006]

Thank you so much - I've been trying to catch up as fast as possible to the discussions. I was reading and posting over on BetterMost but the forum has been down..then I happened to read about this forum. I'm incredibly intrigued by the story and it's powerful effect. I realize some questions have already been discussed so please bear with me as I learn.

Forgot to say welcome to the forum. How lovely to have seen the movie for the first time only a week ago and nice that you were moved as so many of us have been.

[Gabester2006]

My thoughts are in alignment with yours - possibly some pre-knowledge (or rumor) on Randall's part in taking the liberty to be so bold with Jack; and yes, a sort of self-sabotage on Jack's part, whether conscious or unconscious.

I thought it came rather out of the blue and was a risky thing for randall to do if he had no previous inkling of Jack's secret, which made me think that there m,ay have been godssip about Jack before this. I thought the whole thing was becoming harder for jack to handle and in the end he didn;t care if he gave it all away or not, specially after that last scene with Ennis. I don;t think he's have killed himslef but one do thongs one knew might bring about one's death and not care.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

My thoughts are in alignment with yours - possibly some pre-knowledge (or rumor) on Randall's part in taking the liberty to be so bold with Jack; and yes, a sort of self-sabotage on Jack's part, whether conscious or unconscious.

From watching the movie I got the impression Jack and Lureen picked up Randall and LaShawn because they were having vehicle trouble.  I saw nothing to indicate Randall had any prior knowledge of Jack.  I'm left to believe this was a case of Randall and Jack's "Gaydar" being accurate.  Having met my own BBM person on a ship full of "supposedly heterosexual" men, I can see how Randall and Jack just happen to zero in on each other.

[Gabester2006]

You're right  - what an excellent detail that I overlooked - and which gives more credibility to the "gaydar" theory. I still think it was risky and bold for Randall to 'test the waters' with Jack, who in the proposition scene looked like he wanted to be a million miles from there.

From watching the movie I got the impression Jack and Lureen picked up Randall and LaShawn because they were having vehicle trouble.  I saw nothing to indicate Randall had any prior knowledge of Jack.  I'm left to believe this was a case of Randall and Jack's "Gaydar" being accurate.  Having met my own BBM person on a ship full of "supposedly heterosexual" men, I can see how Randall and Jack just happen to zero in on each other.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

You're right  - what an excellent detail that I overlooked - and which gives more credibility to the "gaydar" theory. I still think it was risky and bold for Randall to 'test the waters' with Jack, who in the proposition scene looked like he wanted to be a million miles from there.

You're right...it was risky.  Back then most "safe" places for one male to proposition another were either bars or bath houses.  There must have been something about Jack that gave Randall the green light.  Sometimes it's nothing more than eye contact.  Jack certainly looked to be miles away.  My guess is that his mind was with Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

True, I did not see any sign that Jack did'nt keep his secrets well. If there was gossip, seems to me Lureen, being in the social status that she was would have heard about it and Oh boy... No,  I think Jack's secret was well kept in Texas during this time Ennis, living in Wy. helped to keep it that way. I beleive it was the eye contact between these two that led to them connecting in an affair. Jack could speak volumes with his eyes alone and anyone could see that Jack and Lureen's marriage was strained. To me this is another scene that left me  filling in the blanks. Obviously Lureen and LaShawn are in the ladies room powdwering their noses but who suggested they go and wait outside and have a smoke.? seems to me this person could be seen as the agressor. Sensing a few moments alone, I suspect it was Randall since he made the first "move". I loved he question Jack proposed to Randall about women powdering their noses before going to bed and Randall's "dont't know" reply.    It's apparent that Jack preferred" shy type" secretive men. Randall had alot of Ennis's qualities IMO.  No doubt a convenient personality trait. It's amazing that we see 3 MARRIED men who preferred men and "fishing"  over their wives.  

[monicita]

Aintfoolin, I wouldn't say Randall's proposition outside on the bench was the first move. In my eyes, the first move comes from Jack, when he asks LaShawn to dance, looking at Randall all the while. I always felt that this was an incredibly clear signal, even a dangerous one. Especially as he goes on looking at Randall (I think I would faint if he looked at me like that) and asks: "You don't mind, do you". If that isn't a complete come on, I don't know what would be. Randall would have had to be made of stone or 150% hetero not to have realised that Jack was interested. Or am I the only one to feel that both Jacks look and his words are double entendres?

monicita

[tpe]

Newbie here - just saw BBM one week ago -it has such a powerful grip on me. Just mirroring other sentiments on the Jack & Randall relationship - I think Jack settled although Ennis was certainly his first choice and true love.

This brings up a question though  - please forgive me if already discussed elsewhere - what made Randall so comfortable in his proposition to Jack the night both couples met up at the dance? In some way did Jack's reputation precede him? Seems very risky to me on Randall's part. Just wondering what you all think of this. IMO in that scene, Jack seems perhaps a bit offended in those initial seconds after being asked by Randall to "go fishing" at the cabin.

Also, did Jack's 'settling' contribute to his ultimate demise? (for those who believe he was murdered) i.e. perhaps not as discrete with Randall; getting drunk (Lureen's comment: "he drank a lot"); somehow, a slow self-death?

Welcome, Gabester2006. 

I do think Randall's proposition was vague enough that it could be construed as devoid of any double meaning if necessary.   In the past, this was a skill that every gay person had to master, if he wanted to make connections in places where such behavior could have been regarded as criminal.  So I don't think Randall knew about Jack before this -- I guess both of them sensed each other, in amanner that people sometimes refer to as gaydar.

And I do think that Jack became less careful.  Perhpas 20 years of hiding and delay pushed him to the brink.  I do think that this contributed to his demise.

[tpe]

Aintfoolin, I wouldn't say Randall's proposition outside on the bench was the first move. In my eyes, the first move comes from Jack, when he asks LaShawn to dance, looking at Randall all the while. I always felt that this was an incredibly clear signal, even a dangerous one. Especially as he goes on looking at Randall (I think I would faint if he looked at me like that) and asks: "You don't mind, do you". If that isn't a complete come on, I don't know what would be. Randall would have had to be made of stone or 150% hetero not to have realised that Jack was interested. Or am I the only one to feel that both Jacks look and his words are double entendres?

monicita

It is interesting to think about who made the first signs.  It would seem that at the table, Randall was looking at Jack with such intense interest (that smile!) that it would have been difficult for Jack not to have noticed.  Nonetheless, I agree that the invitation to a dance and the subsequent glances would seem to represent a more active signal coming from Jack...
 

[aintfoolin]

Wow, I never thought of it that way Moni, Maybe THIS was Jack's coded message to Randal? But then why did Jack look like that when Randall took he bait?.....Ennis?

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Wow, I never thought of it that way Moni, Maybe THIS was Jack's coded message to Randal? But then why did Jack look like that when Randall took he bait?.....Ennis?

Ennis!

[aintfoolin]

I knew it!

[monicita]

Definitely, he was thinking of Ennis. One of Jake's finest acting moments, IMHO.

monicita

[LuvJackNasty]

I never thought of it that way Monicita (Jack making the first move)

Now as for Jack's look when they are outside on the bench- For a long time I thought Jack was thinking about Ennis with the mention of fishing etc, either missing him or maybe even guilt but the more I saw it (and I posted something like this many months ago) the more I think it wasn't Ennis he was thinking about- well not specifically-  I've started to see it as shock or maybe surprise- "here’s a guy who is actually approaching ME; I don’t have to go looking for it, he’s making himself available to me.”  I think that was empowering to Jack and I think that was important to him to feel that he was worth it considering that his father and LD treat him like crap on the bottom of their shoe and Ennis is always refusing that sweet life.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Interesting angle LJN.  It never occurred to me that Jack may have been a little surprised by Randall's proposition.  I assumed Jack had done this subtle dance before.  However it is reasonable to conclude that Randlall may have been the first guy to proposition him outside of the usual settings of back then.

[LuvJackNasty]

I guess I'm just assuming that the other men were not local ( I don't know if I'm explaining that right-lol) and they had just met and here's Randall asking him to go away for a weekend not just a one night stand type of deal- it was to spend some time together.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I guess that would have caught him by surprise.