Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Tony on Nov 05, 2007, 08:00 PM
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Will start off this theme by pointing out that, whatever our personal opinions about the sexuality of Ennis and Jack, both of them defined
themselves as straight. Rightly or wrongfully, that's how they saw themselves. And there's something weird about straight guys-they can
have sex with each other as long as there's no love, and they can love each other as long as there's no...sex.
Straight guys have always had sex with each other, whether in prison, or as drunken teen-agers experimenting. Am not saying it's something
constantly going on, but, and I know this can be threatening to women and to gays, straight guys do have a history of fooling around. With no
love. Similarly, straight guys can love another male (although this differs from country to country) and never consider sex.
Ennis and Jack had both, on Brokeback Mountain. FNIT had just....sex. They could have flipped it off as doggy-dog stuff. But it went to
the second round....SNIT, with lovemaking....KISSING!!!! They mixed the two and broke the code. And they knew it.
What I am moving towards, then, is a breach between the SS and the film. The SS is, according to the author, about repressed homosexuality.
Am so over that, with reference to the film, because there, I really believe we see them comfortable, or comfortable enough, with their doings,
so long as no one else knew about it. And for me, that means they entered into the mainstream of all great love stories, with the trauma there
being, always, who loved the most.
And so to that eternal theme, fear of giving oneself, when not loved in return. The fight on the mountain occurred after Ennis became withdrawn
and moody, while Jack was so very casual about them splitting up. That fight may well have been rage as neither would admit openly to love.
Neither knew enough. Jack didn't see Ennis retching with grief and rage. And Ennis didn't know he was so loved, his very shirt had been stolen
as a treasure.
Am sorry for the long introduction, but that is where I would like to go, if anyone is willing. Past fear of being gay and more to fear of love.
Whether you are loved back. Anything would be fair game, but it might be interesting to go over again, where they communicated love and
where they failed to do so. Have suggested before, that Ennis never fully understood he was loved until he found the shirts. Why?
If this goes anywhere, I hope it goes to---missed signals, wrong timing, and, of course, to the fear of love, itself, as too great a risk.
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Well my interpretation of the whole "I'm not queer" "me neither" exchange was that Ennis didn't want to admit it and that Jack just went along with it, thus his response- the first denial in a long line to come. I don't think that Jack was playing on that last day on the mountain- Well not playing in the fun sense- he was trying to lighten the mood. I think Ennis took it harder initially because he knew beyind any doubt that that was it for the two of them- he was going to marry Alma. I think Jack held out hope that after the summer they had just spent together would have changed Ennis's mind. I'm sure he wasn't happy about coming off the mountain early.
Now onto the shirts-I think Ennis knew he was loved or at the very least that Jack cared a great deal for him just by the simple fact of the distance Jack drove to have those few meetings a year, the fact that Jack was the one who found him after 4 years and though we weren't privy to every meeting I'm sure it's safe to say that they had great times. I think Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until the shirts- something he took and kept for 20 years. The fact that Jack needed something tangible of Ennis is powerful in itself. And look when he finds them- I'm not really talking about Jack being gone here- they had that big fight, Mexico had been brought out into the open and Old Man Twist had just told Ennis that Jack was going to bring another man to Lightning Flat- doubts, hurt and confusion must've been strong in Ennis. But that was all erased when he saw that no matter what was said and what was done (by both of them over the years) there were those shirts. Jack didn't discard them- no matter what, Ennis was in his heart. I think Ennis knew Jack loved him and deep down that he loved Jack but it wasn't until the shirts and Jack being gone that he was able to admit it to himself- "this thing" was love.
And later when he's talking to Junior about the wedding the wording of his question always sticks out at me- "This Kurt fella- he loves you?" My question would have been- "Do you love him?" But at any rate Ennis sees that his daughter, at the same age he was when he fell in love with Jack, knows she is loved, she can name it. I think there is a double layer of sadness there- that Junior can say it out loud for the world to hear when he couldn't (meaning society wouldn't allow it) and also that he was too afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made a difference. But I have no doubt that Jack knew that Ennis loved him.
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Fear of Love. Right on Tony, very important throughout BBM. My view of this may be a bit different. I feel when Ennis finds the shirts, yes he discovers the depth of the love Jack had for him. But more importantly, Ennis has an epiphany of sorts and discovers the true depth of the love he had for Jack. He has been unable to see this or accept this part of himself until this discovery. He now sees who he is, what he is, and I feel, acknowledges this. Thus he is able to take the shirts and carry the shirts downstairs in front of the Twists and in the light of day "ask" to take his lovers shirt, something no “fishin’ buddy” would do. He is no longer afraid of this love, his love for Jack. “The love that dare not speak its name.” My view.
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Well said, LJN and jackster. I think you really got to the heart of it.
First, as to whether they both saw themselves as straight:
I agree that Jack most likely said "Me neither" more to reassure Ennis than because he really thought of himself as straight, which is also supported by his behavior thoughout the years. Ennis, I think, desperately wanted to think that he was straight, but had fears that he wasn't, as is evidenced by some of his remarks about people "knowing" just by looking at him.
And I think part of what made them comfortable up on Brokeback was a sense of total isolation from the world, that nobody knew about them and they were in a place almost out of time and separate from the rest of the world.
I absolutely agree that this enters the mainstream of all great love stories. Regardless of sexual orientation. Love is love, and being denied it is tragic under any circumstances. I think in regard to fear of love, though, that orientation is very important here (not even orientation itself but the perception of it). Because I think the root of Ennis's fear of acknowledging love for Jack was specifically because he was a man, and Ennis couldn't bring himself to know, consciously, that he loved a man. That was their main obstacle. The mixed signals, bad timing, other responsibilites, etc. were all born of that issue.
And yes, I think that finding the shirts showed Ennis not only that he was loved, but how much he was loved, how steadfastly, and how long. That, coupled with the shock of the loss of Jack, knowing that he would never see him again, helped unlock his acknowledgment of his own love for Jack in return.
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Am kinda embarrassed the topic introduction was so long, and yet the two replies got past all that garbage and into the territory am trying for.
LJN, I know it may be quoting you out of context, but: "....he was afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made
a difference." I have been hoping for some movement past fear of being gay (the standard formula) to fear that wrecks any great love, fear of
not being loved back to the extreme level of the Immortal Beloved (and that is how I will always see their two loves, as The Great Love most of
us never know). It was some time before I began to see Ennis, going to sit, alone, on that hill, as a tragic turning point-he was admitting his
love the only way he knew how but rage flowed, the fight, when Jack unwittingly sent the wrong signal, making light of their leaving. You're
right, Jack was already in love, and doing the best he could--but he sent the wrong message. He provoked rage, and later, retching, by what
seemed a cavalier attitude. So we have Ennis crippled by fears, maybe justified, despite all of Jack's later trips, but, LJN, wasn't JACK crippled
by some fears of his own? On that mountain? Didn't he fear rejection, despite Ennis' brooding? Jack was hiding a lot. Am saying they were
BOTH afraid, not of gay issues, but of the unexpected depth of their love. Jack hid it, when he hid the shirt.
Jackster, that list of scenes you did, and their meaning, on another thread, was IMO a triumph for this forum. Get people challenged, and that's
when the really definitive work gets done. Am hoping to borrow some of the content and much of the sense of an outline, that particular
technique, in looking to develop the fear of love, missed opportunities, and wrong signals sent. As far as the epiphany of the shirts, had never
once considered it was a double whammy and that, as you have said, Ennis finally saw how much he himself had loved Jack. But it was just that.
And yet, on this topic, Fear of Love, it became safe to love, only when....it was no longer a viable threat to losing one's own self.
Am not doing very well. Am trying to explore how things went wrong because the love was so great, it was threatening, especially with so
many mixed messages between the two. Two heavy hitters have weighed in (and you both are) and done well, and am still trying to get
the topic better defined. Anywhere anyone goes with this is fine, but somehow I need, myself, to get past a generality--that they feared the
greatness of their love more than any mere social repression issues--to the specific scenes and words that fostered doubt or failed to
reassure and thereby kept the fear of love---ongoing, until too late.
Both replies got past my lack of clarity and am grateful for that. Tony.
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I will have to come back here and post later. What I've read so far is very interesting and reigniting some PBS feelings. Keep posting people. O0 :\'(
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Oops, FlowerChild, you were posting as I was typing. I see your point, that orientation was an issue and I can see the theory that it was
THE issue that paralyzed Ennis. But some part of me still says Ennis had chucked that out the door when he went to the tent the second night,
for love. He feared being seen as gay, or being gay, but IMO his love was too great for that to be the source of paralysis. He'd gotten past
a helluva lot when he came to kissing and loving on Jack. No repression there. No self-denial.
So have looked elsewhere. If Ennis had come to some terms with the relationship, and he had, then that would leave, then, the other fear that
his love was not returned at the same level. In "Limerance and Love", by Dr. Dorothy Gray, the issue of who loves whom more is central to
the development of love problems. Might have the title backwards-can't remember. And in the great love stories, all of them, doubt is what
causes paralysis. Even "The Sound of Music". "West Side Story". "Romeo and Juliet."
I know you have seen the fear of being seen as gay as central, but, FlowerChild, go with me a little further if you can, that what applies
to those great love stories must to some degree be equally present here. Fear of Love, itself.
is at the core of all problems. Fear of love comes from doubt in its being returned, at fear of losing one's own identity.
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Thank you, Tony, for asking a really good question, yet again. And :t) LJN for your clear-sighted observation of Ennis and Jack. Discovering the two shirts for Ennis was monumental to Ennis for two reasons, IMO. You pointed out the one reason, that Ennis did not realize how much he was loved by Jack until that moment, and how faithful was Jack's love for him. I think the second reason why discovering the two shirts made a change in Ennis was the fact that he understood that Jack's Ma KNEW, and ACCEPTED them. For the first time in his life, Ennis felt accepted by someone who is not Jack, who has no reason to accept him. The combination of the two emotions, of being loved, and of being accepted, broke down the walls that kept him isolated for so long. Finally, Ennis understood that he was WORTHY of love and acceptance. All those years when he was hiding behind that fortress, he thought he was unworthy of being loved, of being accepted, as Adam Sutton pointed out in his book, and in his interview, that he hated himself for the feelings that society taught us were wrong. When he found those shirts, he realized, he FELT the love that Jack had preserved even after death, that Jack's Ma gave him as a gift out of love for her son, and he finally believed in his heart, that he was worthy, that he was good enough to be loved, to be accepted. He stood a little taller coming down those stairs. He walked a little lighter across that kitchen floor with the shirts cradled in his arm. Ennis was a new man with confidence, self-acceptance, self-respect, compared to the man who knelt in front of Jack saying, "You are the reason I'm like this, I am nothing, I am no where."
Ennis didn't think anyone, not even Jack could seriously love him, except for fun, until Cassie told him that love is not just about fun. Then finding the shirts was the evidence that convinced him, not mentally, but emotionally.
He asked Alma Jr because he wanted to make sure his daughter will not marry without love as he did, but that she would have someone who loves her, as he did. And looking out the window, when she replied that "Kurt loves me" Ennis was thinking "Jack loved me" and regretting all those times when he didn't get to say it. There was no question that he would go to her wedding. By that time, Ennis was living Brokeback Mountain, without regrets.
Thanks Tony, LJN. I love this topic.
Well my interpretation of the whole "I'm not queer" "me neither" exchange was that Ennis didn't want to admit it and that Jack just went along with it, thus his response- the first denial in a long line to come. I don't think that Jack was playing on that last day on the mountain- Well not playing in the fun sense- he was trying to lighten the mood. I think Ennis took it harder initially because he knew beyind any doubt that that was it for the two of them- he was going to marry Alma. I think Jack held out hope that after the summer they had just spent together would have changed Ennis's mind. I'm sure he wasn't happy about coming off the mountain early.
Now onto the shirts-I think Ennis knew he was loved or at the very least that Jack cared a great deal for him just by the simple fact of the distance Jack drove to have those few meetings a year, the fact that Jack was the one who found him after 4 years and though we weren't privy to every meeting I'm sure it's safe to say that they had great times. I think Ennis didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until the shirts- something he took and kept for 20 years. The fact that Jack needed something tangible of Ennis is powerful in itself. And look when he finds them- I'm not really talking about Jack being gone here- they had that big fight, Mexico had been brought out into the open and Old Man Twist had just told Ennis that Jack was going to bring another man to Lightning Flat- doubts, hurt and confusion must've been strong in Ennis. But that was all erased when he saw that no matter what was said and what was done (by both of them over the years) there were those shirts. Jack didn't discard them- no matter what, Ennis was in his heart. I think Ennis knew Jack loved him and deep down that he loved Jack but it wasn't until the shirts and Jack being gone that he was able to admit it to himself- "this thing" was love.
And later when he's talking to Junior about the wedding the wording of his question always sticks out at me- "This Kurt fella- he loves you?" My question would have been- "Do you love him?" But at any rate Ennis sees that his daughter, at the same age he was when he fell in love with Jack, knows she is loved, she can name it. I think there is a double layer of sadness there- that Junior can say it out loud for the world to hear when he couldn't (meaning society wouldn't allow it) and also that he was too afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made a difference. But I have no doubt that Jack knew that Ennis loved him.
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Am kinda embarrassed the topic introduction was so long, and yet the two replies got past all that garbage and into the territory am trying for.
LJN, I know it may be quoting you out of context, but: "....he was afraid or crippled by fears to be able to admit it when it could have made
a difference." I have been hoping for some movement past fear of being gay (the standard formula) to fear that wrecks any great love, fear of
not being loved back to the extreme level of the Immortal Beloved (and that is how I will always see their two loves, as The Great Love most of
us never know). It was some time before I began to see Ennis, going to sit, alone, on that hill, as a tragic turning point-he was admitting his
love the only way he knew how but rage flowed, the fight, when Jack unwittingly sent the wrong signal, making light of their leaving. You're
right, Jack was already in love, and doing the best he could--but he sent the wrong message. He provoked rage, and later, retching, by what
seemed a cavalier attitude. So we have Ennis crippled by fears, maybe justified, despite all of Jack's later trips, but, LJN, wasn't JACK crippled
by some fears of his own? On that mountain? Didn't he fear rejection, despite Ennis' brooding? Jack was hiding a lot. Am saying they were
BOTH afraid, not of gay issues, but of the unexpected depth of their love. Jack hid it, when he hid the shirt.
Well IMO the retching was not from Jack's "cavlier" attitude but rather that Ennis just walked away from someone he loved and he knew at that point he'd never see Jack again- it was a physcial reaction to the loss.
Jack was absolutely crippled by fears of his own- I don't think that Jack had a problem with who he was or the fact that he loved a man. I think his fear was more deeply rooted in losing Ennis, thus going along with the "short leash" for years. I think his abusive upbringing had a lot to do with that as well. Both had learned some pretty harsh lessons as boys at the hands of their fathers. I know that's not what you're looking for here but it did shape their view of the world/relationships.
I don't see Jack as afraid of his love, necessarily. When he goes back to Aguirre the next summer after being basically outed by Aguirre, he still asks for Ennis before he leaves. I think Jack was more ready to admit, at least to himself, that he loved Ennis. I hate to use the expression "walking on eggshells" because that sounds too extreme for this but I can't think of anything else right now, but once they reunited Jack had to be careful as to how far he pushed in terms of his wants or obtaining that life with Ennis- too much could have pushed Ennis away- it was a balancing act of sorts. I don't see Jack as afraid of his love but rather afraid of losing that love and I think if he even attempted to verbalize it as love to Ennis it would have scared him off.
I'm not too sure about Ennis- I flip flop on him at times. I don't know if it was fear so much as not being able to accept it. He surely wanted it as evidenced by him quitting jobs and even when he sets up the fishing buddy lie the day he recieves that postcard from Jack- he was setting things in motion in terms of the cover up for Alma. I think he was at war with himself inside, not being able to deny his feelings for Jack- at least to himself but at the same time feeling the stress from that. (not sure if stress is the right word so I hope that came across okay).
Now as for some miscommunications:
When they are standing by Jack's truck after they came down from the mountain Jack says "I might be back, if the army don't get me" And he gets a "see ya around". To be fair it's not the most direct statement in the world, but he's definitely putting out the possibility that he could get drafted and Ennis may never see him again and he got a nonchalant goodbye as if the summer meant nothing.
The divorce debacle: Now in the movie it was a postcard and in the SS it was a phone call. The postcard I could see him misinterpretting and did a lot of thinking on how in the world he misunderstood the phone call. The nearest I could figure is that Ennis may have just said "Me and Alma got divorced" and not much else or if he elaborated any further Jack didn't hear because he heard divorce and his mind went right to "he's telling me it's time to be together" I don't think that would be too far fetched considering that either way (postcard or call) Ennis was doing something completely out of the norm and that had to mean something- at least to Jack.
as The Great Love most of us never know - Well said
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I absolutely agree that this enters the mainstream of all great love stories. Regardless of sexual orientation. Love is love, and being denied it is tragic under any circumstances. I think in regard to fear of love, though, that orientation is very important here (not even orientation itself but the perception of it). Because I think the root of Ennis's fear of acknowledging love for Jack was specifically because he was a man, and Ennis couldn't bring himself to know, consciously, that he loved a man. That was their main obstacle. The mixed signals, bad timing, other responsibilites, etc. were all born of that issue.
And yes, I think that finding the shirts showed Ennis not only that he was loved, but how much he was loved, how steadfastly, and how long. That, coupled with the shock of the loss of Jack, knowing that he would never see him again, helped unlock his acknowledgment of his own love for Jack in return.
Sorry, FlwrChild, I respect your insights, but in this case, I have to disagree. I think the mixed signals, bad timing, and all that, are directly the result of their inability to communicate their feelings, not just their feelings for each other, but all feelings. Men, and especially cowboys, are not known for their emotional communication. The conversations between them about their feelings are remarkable simply for the fact that there was conversation at all. It shows how much love they had for each other - more than could be held back by social conventions.
I agree with you however, that Ennis could not bring himself to name the feelings he had for Jack, was love, or that Jack loved him, at least, not until Cassie told him so. ^f^ :ghug:
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Fear of Love. Right on Tony, very important throughout BBM. My view of this may be a bit different. I feel when Ennis finds the shirts, yes he discovers the depth of the love Jack had for him. But more importantly, Ennis has an epiphany of sorts and discovers the true depth of the love he had for Jack. He has been unable to see this or accept this part of himself until this discovery. He now sees who he is, what he is, and I feel, acknowledges this. Thus he is able to take the shirts and carry the shirts downstairs in front of the Twists and in the light of day "ask" to take his lovers shirt, something no “fishin’ buddy” would do. He is no longer afraid of this love, his love for Jack. “The love that dare not speak its name.” My view.
Very well said. O0
I always see him taking those shirts as symbolic of him taking Jack home to live with him-bringing Jack to where he always wanted to be. And I've always believed that Mama T knew exactly who Ennis was- the rightful owner of one of those shirts and that she sent him up there. She doesn't even bat an eye when he comes downstairs, just grabs a bag and puts them in there for Ennis to take. A huge step for Ennis here not to mention just being there in the first place.
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Wow, more good responses. O0 You've started a great discussion here, Tony. And I will agree with you somewhat, while sticking to my guns a bit as well. :)
"I know you have seen the fear of being seen as gay as central, but, FlowerChild, go with me a little further if you can, that what applies to those great love stories must to some degree be equally present here. Fear of Love, itself."
I don't think that Ennis had gotten past the issue of loving another man. I agree that in SNIT, there was no repression, no self denial. But it was within a bubble, within the safety of the mountain and the illusion of the “one shot thing”. It was Ennis who was unable to envision a life for them outside of that setting, and who chose to marry Alma, not because he was uncertain of Jack’s feelings for him, but because he believed he had no other choice. As the years went by, they may well have each harbored fears about how much their love was returned, but I think that the hurdle they couldn’t get over, which was perhaps the foundation for the fears that you present, was nevertheless Ennis’s inability to move out of the comfort zone of his “If you can’t fix it, ya gotta stand it” beliefs and the belief that what stood in their way couldn’t be fixed.
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LJN, you said you don't think that's what I was looking for, in part of your post. It's EXACTLY what am looking for. New territory, and
you found it, in bringing up the abuse both suffered at the hands of their fathers. We WANT to love our parents. When they are abusive, that
can be a factor in producing....fear of love. The loved one can hurt you.
Lance, your focus, and Jackster's, on the acceptance by Jack's Mom, is also new territory. With all the new insights, this movie just gets
more and more meaningful, always past what we saw before.
Saw another warning while I was typing, but will post anyway, as am going to bed.
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lc, just saw your latest post. I didn't mean to imply that, save for the issue of loving another man, Ennis, or even Jack for that matter, would somehow have been articulate and eloquent in expressing their feelings for each other. But I do think that it is the initial stumbling block, and therefore impacts the rest of their communication patterns throughout their relationship.
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LJN, you said you don't think that's what I was looking for, in part of your post. It's EXACTLY what am looking for. New territory, and
you found it, in bringing up the abuse both suffered at the hands of their fathers. We WANT to love our parents. When they are abusive, that
can be a factor in producing....fear of love. The loved one can hurt you.
Lance, your focus, and Jackster's, on the acceptance by Jack's Mom, is also new territory. With all the new insights, this movie just gets
more and more meaningful, always past what we saw before.
Saw another warning while I was typing, but will post anyway, as am going to bed.
Yup. Great art has many layers, and a thousand little details that reveal themselves only with closer and repeated careful inspection. You always ask such great questions, Tony, and take us deeper into new territory. Thank you, trailblazer! :c) :t)
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lc, just saw your latest post. I didn't mean to imply that, save for the issue of loving another man, Ennis, or even Jack for that matter, would somehow have been articulate and eloquent in expressing their feelings for each other. But I do think that it is the initial stumbling block, and therefore impacts the rest of their communication patterns throughout their relationship.
I think we agree in principle, FlwrChild. I mean, Ennis didn't realize (accept) he was in love with Jack until Cassie walked out the door. The dumbfounded look on his face said it all. "What's love got to do with it?" It was just two guys having fun together doing cowboy stuff. "Girls don't fall in love with fun." and neither do boys. That's when he sent off the postcard, hoping to see Jack again. Even then, he still said November was the earliest he could meet. Guys just can't show that they give a damn, especially to another guy. Ennis simply didn't have a handle on his feelings, as he said, there ain't no reins on this one.
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LJN, you said you don't think that's what I was looking for, in part of your post. It's EXACTLY what am looking for. New territory, and
you found it, in bringing up the abuse both suffered at the hands of their fathers. We WANT to love our parents. When they are abusive, that
can be a factor in producing....fear of love. The loved one can hurt you.
Lance, your focus, and Jackster's, on the acceptance by Jack's Mom, is also new territory. With all the new insights, this movie just gets
more and more meaningful, always past what we saw before.
Saw another warning while I was typing, but will post anyway, as am going to bed.
I've said some of this in other threads before concerning Jack and his upbringing. He grew up with fear and the poor thing was probably terrorized by his father. >:( So let's look at three of the men who had a big role in Jack's life: His father, his father in law and Ennis. LD and John Twist can be pretty much lumped together in that neither felt Jack was worth anything and had no qualms about showing it. but to do a timeline of sorts:
Jack grows up at the hands of an abusive father. Learns fear and more than likely has little self worth.
Jack meets Ennis who is not mean to him, he has a real friend as well as a lover. Jack can be Jack and is accepted by Ennis.
LD enters the picture and to use the scene of Bobby's birth- Jack did his "work", produced the "Newsome Heir" and is basically still treated like a piece of crap. That right there is what made him seek out Ennis again- the one person he knew loved him- he knew he didn't belong there and didn't want to be there. It was a hope and a prayer sending that postcard and both were answered.
The abuse as a child made Jack cling to his dream of being with Ennis and he was willing to make concessions in settling for part of the dream and not totally forcing the issue- the fear of pushing Ennis away. This was the one thing that Jack did right, the one thing he was good at- loving Ennis. Despite not being able to obtain that sweet life, Ennis gave him a sense of worth.
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Jack grows up at the hands of an abusive father. Learns fear and more than likely has little self worth.
Jack meets Ennis who is not mean to him, he has a real friend as well as a lover. Jack can be Jack and is accepted by Ennis.
LD enters the picture and to use the scene of Bobby's birth- Jack did his "work", produced the "Newsome Heir" and is basically still treated like a piece of crap. That right there is what made him seek out Ennis again- the one person he knew loved him- he knew he didn't belong there and didn't want to be there. It was a hope and a prayer sending that postcard and both were answered.
The abuse as a child made Jack cling to his dream of being with Ennis and he was willing to make concessions in settling for part of the dream and not totally forcing the issue- the fear of pushing Ennis away. This was the one thing that Jack did right, the one thing he was good at- loving Ennis. Despite not being able to obtain that sweet life, Ennis gave him a sense of worth.
Thank you LJN, you are always insightful when it comes to Jack because, I think, your love for him gives you special understanding. I saw his reaction, too, in the hospital scene, but did not understand why it drove him to Ennis, except vaguely that he longed for the companionship, the sense of acceptance with a real friend, without ridicule. Your words are beautiful explaining why Jack loved Ennis so much, and why he put up with so much to have Ennis. I love the sentence above in purple, about the postcard. <^(
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Am up later than I thought I would be, so wanted to cover something before I forget.
LJN, when I used the word "cavalier" with reference to Jack, I meant seemingly cavalier, because that's what it probably looked like to Ennis,
who was off brooding on the hill so very sad, and here comes Jack to play a prank with the lasso. We know he was already deeply in love
with Ennis, so maybe it was that dreamy optimism that may have allowed him to look for another day, and just get past that one.
But it was a catastrophically wrong signal and IMO, provoked the bloody fight.
Then, to your post about Ennis not being mean to him as compared to his dad and father-in-law. That can be expanded pretty savagely---
as it would seem most guys were down on him. Add in Aguirre, the rodeo clown, the customer who called him a piss-ant, as he drove the
tractor outside the store. I've got something ugly to say about that. Some guys (no difference, straight or gay), try to prove how tough they
are by being cold-blooded, and all they prove is that they are dead inside. Jack wasn't just lively, he had a life-force, and so would have been
troubled, all along by these kind of creeps. And so, yeah, you're right-Ennis wasn't mean to him, treated him as an equal, and disagreed with
some care taken, when he did disagree.
But he did hide his love, or, at least, the depth of it. He showed enough love on that mountain to break through the stone walls around
Ennis Del Mar, but he hid the shirt. And Ennis never saw him crying, on his way to Mexico. It's still more than mixed signals---I believe there
is that element of fearing love, or the Great Love, which could always prove to be unsafe, could always lead to rejection.
Thanks for bringing up something that makes me understand Jack better---with all his love of life, he was always pushed off by others and
so, he saw Ennis, who really loved him, as pushing him off, too, by not going for all of his plans.
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. . . . So let's look at three of the men who had a big role in Jack's life: His father, his father in law and Ennis. . . .
This notion (and the rest of your post) is a great idea LJN. Haven't seen this exact idea pop-up anywhere else. %&) Might be worth it's own thread. And as Tony said, don't forget Aguirre and all the other pissants. To a lot of insecure men the only way to feel bigger is to try and make other men look smaller (the stud-duck method of personal achievment!).
I really like your idea that Ennis is the first M.A.N. that respects Jack. Ennis's unpretentious, solid masculinity is key here to this significance. When this MAN decides on his own free will to then love Jack (SNIT) Jack's heart must just melt away!
No wonder he was hooked for 20 years!! ;)
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Fear of Love 2 .... SNIT.
How about SNIT Tony? Is Ennis fearful of what he may discover about himself inside that tent? Here’s this big, strong man, scared of what he may learn if he goes into that tent. But in he goes.
And Jack shows him that (to quote a well worn phrase) “The only thing he has to fear is, FEAR itself.” Ennis discovers love here, Jack’s love, and discovers that Jack isn't afraid to show it. "It's alright, it's alright" And then, Jack discovers Ennis’s love (it wasn’t just a one night thing).
Fear of LOVE seems critical in this scene too, huh?
And, I think FC is right, it's the fear of HOMOSEXUAL love that makes this fear so terrifying to Ennis.
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I think both ss and film agreed in the one essential point: that no matter what they said or claimed to be, they were in love with each other and accept it as a matter of fact when they were alone together. The problem was in the acknowledgement of their love beyond BBM and beyond the two of them. Jack was moving in this direction, not caring too much what the consequences of a life lived openly. Ennis could bring a part of himself to accept his love for another man, but the problem arose when he had to acknowledge this before the wider world. Very close to the root of this fear of exposure is Ennis's own inner homophobia. For although this homophobia was not enough to keep Ennis from loving Jack, it inevitably became the impediment that kept Ennis from agreeing to a life together with Jack.
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This notion (and the rest of your post) is a great idea LJN. Haven't seen this exact idea pop-up anywhere else. %&) Might be worth it's own thread. And as Tony said, don't forget Aguirre and all the other pissants. To a lot of insecure men the only way to feel bigger is to try and make other men look smaller (the stud-duck method of personal achievment!).
I really like your idea that Ennis is the first M.A.N. that respects Jack. Ennis's unpretentious, solid masculinity is key here to this significance. When this MAN decides on his own free will to then love Jack (SNIT) Jack's heart must just melt away!
No wonder he was hooked for 20 years!! ;)
I agree wholeheartedly, jackster. LJN really got Jack. I might add that Ennis was also hooked for 20 years for a similar reason. Jack is the first man, to reach out and touched him, and probably touched his heart and soul in ways that no one else ever had, not even Alma...Jack may not be perfect, but to Ennis, Jack brought meaning to the dull duty-bound existence of his. Ennis made everything fun, and interesting. That's why Ennis always has a smile on his face when Jack is around, and always frowning and looked miserable when he is not around. Ennis put this down as best buddies, but when Cassie put a finger on it and referred to it indirectly as love, Ennis was dumbfounded.
It's not so much fear of love...in the case of Ennis, it was simply so alien to him that he didn't recognize it, didn't know what to do with it.
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I think both ss and film agreed in the one essential point: that no matter what they said or claimed to be, they were in love with each other and accept it as a matter of fact when they were alone together. The problem was in the acknowledgement of their love beyond BBM and beyond the two of them. Jack was moving in this direction, not caring too much what the consequences of a life lived openly. Ennis could bring a part of himself to accept his love for another man, but the problem arose when he had to acknowledge this before the wider world. Very close to the root of this fear of exposure is Ennis's own inner homophobia. For although this homophobia was not enough to keep Ennis from loving Jack, it inevitably became the impediment that kept Ennis from agreeing to a life together with Jack.
I think you got Ennis exactly right. His childhood trauma was so ingrain that his own homophobia was second nature. His love for Jack was strong enough to overcome it, as long as it didn't interfere with daily life. For that, he needed the support of loving people like Jack's Ma. I think that's why at the end of the story, Ennis was ready to accept whatever comes, as long as he had memories of Jack and Brokeback Mountain. As long as he was dealing with people who love him, like his daughter and Jack's Ma. Otherwise, it just the laconic cowboy existence of business as usual, and no emotional interaction. As in a round-up, on a ranch, or with the old man, where a simple "yes, sir" will suffice.
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I think you got Ennis exactly right. His childhood trauma was so ingrain that his own homophobia was second nature. His love for Jack was strong enough to overcome it, as long as it didn't interfere with daily life. For that, he needed the support of loving people like Jack's Ma. I think that's why at the end of the story, Ennis was ready to accept whatever comes, as long as he had memories of Jack and Brokeback Mountain. As long as he was dealing with people who love him, like his daughter and Jack's Ma. Otherwise, it just the laconic cowboy existence of business as usual, and no emotional interaction. As in a round-up, on a ranch, or with the old man, where a simple "yes, sir" will suffice.
Thanks Lance. Ennis is so complex in this regard, no? I really wonder whether things would have been different had his mother survived the accident? Would have had less fear of loving someone more openly?
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Thanks Lance. Ennis is so complex in this regard, no? I really wonder whether things would have been different had his mother survived the accident? Would have had less fear of loving someone more openly?
I love Ennis' complexity, and seeming simplicity. You are assuming that his mother would be the similar to Jack's Ma. Also, Ennis' attachment seem strongest with his dad, his idol. It's the lack of masculine love in Ennis' life that made Jack's love so bright for Ennis. And vice versa.
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I love Ennis' complexity, and seeming simplicity. You are assuming that his mother would be the similar to Jack's Ma. Also, Ennis' attachment seem strongest with his dad, his idol. It's the lack of masculine love in Ennis' life that made Jack's love so bright for Ennis. And vice versa.
Alas, it was Ennis's dad who might also have been close to the root of Ennis's fears -- the Earl and Rich incident, I mean.
Ennis's complexity and simplicity -- seemingly conflicting forces that come to rest in Ennis. To be sure, he had both in abundance.
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"Two guys living together, no way. We could get together, out in the middle of nowhere", Ennis's declaration of how this would go. Let's face it, as far as Ennis was concern he wasn't getting off that mountain. Jack went along, just like he went along with "I not queer". All the rules so nicely established, boundaries set.
And now the hard part, the loving of each other, and the baggage each brought with them. And both did bring a lot of luggage into this relationship.
Jack's rejection and abuse by his father, Ennis slow lost of his family, his inability to be open with his own feelings, and let alone with others, and above all to think your father is capable of a murder, and to know the reason your father killed, could be a reason your own father might kill you if ever knew your secret.
Together they were able to shed some of that baggage and love each other. Alone together, with the misplace notion no one knew of their relationship, which was myths because, there was some that did know, (Alma, and Aguirre did know). The problem was they had to between themselves what is it to call it, this "thing". And how to live and deal with it, while loving each other so desperately.
my thoughts.
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"Two guys living together, no way. We could get together, out in the middle of nowhere", Ennis's declaration of how this would go. Let's face it, as far as Ennis was concern he wasn't getting off that mountain. Jack went along, just like he went along with "I not queer". All the rules so nicely established, boundaries set.
And now the hard part, the loving of each other, and the baggage each brought with them. And both did bring a lot of luggage into this relationship.
Jack's rejection and abuse by his father, Ennis slow lost of his family, his inability to be open with his own feelings, and let alone with others, and above all to think your father is capable of a murder, and to know the reason your father killed, could be a reason your own father might kill you if ever knew your secret.
Together they were able to shed some of that baggage and love each other. Alone together, with the misplace notion no one knew of their relationship, which was myths because, there was some that did know, (Alma, and Aguirre did know). The problem was they had to between themselves what is it to call it, this "thing". And how to live and deal with it, while loving each other so desperately.
my thoughts.
manhattangirl, I think I echo waht you say here in my latest post in another thread: that they loved each other in spite of themselves and what they were before meeting each other. I do think you are right when you say that the love was perhaps great enough that they were able to shed some of their baggage because of that love. At the very least, they were not afraid to love each other, and to acknowledge it between the 2 of them.
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That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.
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That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.
This is for me, is exactly what kept Jack on that short leash. Jack excited Ennis, and scared the hell out of him. But unlike the others in Ennis's life, he couldn't let Jack go.
my thoughts.
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And the winner is...."Crash"... Remember that awful night? When BBM wuz robbed? Both films spoke to a theme of thinking that is
unjust. But where is "Crash" now? Is there a forum? Are there "Crashies"?
BBM is going to endure because it has more than the theme of the SS-homophobic culture, self-repression, etc. BBM, the film, IMO,
went past the SS, and became a more universal love story.
FlowerChild, and most everybody else, I do need to concede that Ennis not coming to terms with his feelings for another man is central
to the tragedy, but, having done that, am trying to point out that not only is there more, the problems of ANY love (fear of love, itself),
but that that more makes the difference between Crash and BBM.
It will always be there, the issue of Ennis struggling to come to terms with same-sex love--that's critical to the story line and the
character development. But there's more, and that's what am trying to explore----the elements that make the love story universal and
enduring. It's difficult territory but it's there.
Welshwitch???? I haven't heard Bakhtin's name used in over 20 years! Am so out of it, that the last I'd heard was that Russian Lit. people
were wondering if he even existed, or was a committee of scholars. Am embarrassed that I never kept up with what they found after the
fall of the Soviet Union. But you have it right there, the element of the carnivalesque, as an approach to the two lovers and their differences.
Tpe and Jackster have been a great shock, with their handle on scholarly stuff. Et tu, Welshwitch? I THINK I need to be careful around
here, never knowing when I might get clobbered with more advanced Brokie stuff than I was prepared for.
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But he did hide his love, or, at least, the depth of it. He showed enough love on that mountain to break through the stone walls around
Ennis Del Mar, but he hid the shirt. And Ennis never saw him crying, on his way to Mexico. It's still more than mixed signals---I believe there
is that element of fearing love, or the Great Love, which could always prove to be unsafe, could always lead to rejection.
Thanks for bringing up something that makes me understand Jack better---with all his love of life, he was always pushed off by others and
so, he saw Ennis, who really loved him, as pushing him off, too, by not going for all of his plans.
Tony, I'm assuming when you say he hid the shirt you mean up on BBM, not that it was hidden in his closet. I don't think of that as hiding his love but rather as an act of love in that he needed something tangible. As I said earlier I think that he held out hope that Ennis may have changed his mind about marrying Alma until they actually parted ways but somewhere deep down inside he knew that that would be it for them thus taking the shirt. I don't think he could have said "Hey Ennis can I take something of yours to keep with me to remember you by?" Any mention of that would have defined "this thing" and also the fear of rejection comes into play.
Now The divorce scene was a big misunderstanding- I've already elaborated on how I think Jack misunderstood Ennis's call/card. When Jack arrives he is greated with a hug and then introduced to the girls-clearly a signal that Ennis is glad to see him and the introduction probably confirmed for Jack that this was going to be it- they'd be together. It's not until Jack says he has to ask around Riverton that Ennis's whole demeanor shifts and it was there that there was NO misunderstanding for Jack that it was Ennis and his fears that were the stumbling block- not Alma, not the kids. Yes, Ennis doesn't see him cry because he got into the truck with the weight of this knowledge and left. I don't know if he held it in out of pride or if the tears didn't come until the initial shock of that knowledge actually hit him full force.
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This notion (and the rest of your post) is a great idea LJN. Haven't seen this exact idea pop-up anywhere else. %&) Might be worth it's own thread. And as Tony said, don't forget Aguirre and all the other pissants. To a lot of insecure men the only way to feel bigger is to try and make other men look smaller (the stud-duck method of personal achievment!).
I really like your idea that Ennis is the first M.A.N. that respects Jack. Ennis's unpretentious, solid masculinity is key here to this significance. When this MAN decides on his own free will to then love Jack (SNIT) Jack's heart must just melt away!
No wonder he was hooked for 20 years!! ;)
I think we could start a thread on that- it could be interesting examining the other men in relation to the boys. And maybe even how J/E's own insecurities manifested themselves. I'll let you start it if you want since I always seem to have trouble wording the start of a topic just right.
I like what you said about the SNIT- such an emotional, beautiful and powerful scene.
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I think both ss and film agreed in the one essential point: that no matter what they said or claimed to be, they were in love with each other and accept it as a matter of fact when they were alone together. The problem was in the acknowledgement of their love beyond BBM and beyond the two of them. Jack was moving in this direction, not caring too much what the consequences of a life lived openly. Ennis could bring a part of himself to accept his love for another man, but the problem arose when he had to acknowledge this before the wider world. Very close to the root of this fear of exposure is Ennis's own inner homophobia. For although this homophobia was not enough to keep Ennis from loving Jack, it inevitably became the impediment that kept Ennis from agreeing to a life together with Jack.
Exactly, Thomas. I know the topic is to try and break away from society and and the fear of being found out but those are very huge factors, if you take them away then there is not much to stop them fromliving freely and openly. IMO, society is another character in this story- the pink elephant in the room if you will. Both the movie and SS state that Earl and Rich were "tough, old birds" so to me that shows that no matter how tough you are you can still fall victim to hatred and I think that adds yet another layer to Ennis's fears- he's shown as tough and can kick someone's butt but being tough isn't a guarantee that he can combat that. I have no idea if that thought made sense- I can't get it out of my mind in a clear manner. ::)
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That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.
Well said WW :)
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That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.
Yes!!! WW, you are so right! I agree 100% :clap: Ennis = control and Jack = spontaneity. That's the word I was looking for. And with Jack, Ennis can be spontaneous. In fact, he gets so spontaneous that he has no control. When Aquirre was up the mountain looking for them, he witnessed Ennis grabbing Jack from behind, ripping his shirt off, and rough housing on the ground. That's spontaneous. The dozy embrace, that's spontaneous. Jumping down the stairs two by two, the passionate reunion kiss...even Jack the ever spontaneous was shocked and surprised by it.
And in the real world, no body has total control. Acknowledging his relationship with Jack would put Ennis even further behind in the control scorecard.
It is only in the final scenes, after Jack's death, when Ennis had to face his lack of control, when he finally acknowledged that all the control in the world was mere illusionary, and only Jack's love for him was real, for twenty years. Only Jack's Ma unconditional acceptance of him, of them, was real. Only Alma Jr's loving financee, their happiness were real.
Thanks, WW, you put this into perspective for me.
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Exactly, Thomas. I know the topic is to try and break away from society and and the fear of being found out but those are very huge factors, if you take them away then there is not much to stop them fromliving freely and openly. IMO, society is another character in this story- the pink elephant in the room if you will. Both the movie and SS state that Earl and Rich were "tough, old birds" so to me that shows that no matter how tough you are you can still fall victim to hatred and I think that adds yet another layer to Ennis's fears- he's shown as tough and can kick someone's butt but being tough isn't a guarantee that he can combat that. I have no idea if that thought made sense- I can't get it out of my mind in a clear manner. ::)
Yes, you make perfect sense, LJN, the pink elephant indeed! Society is the central character, along with Ennis and Jack! I love it. :clap:
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Yes!!! WW, you are so right! I agree 100% :clap: Ennis = control and Jack = spontaneity. That's the word I was looking for. And with Jack, Ennis can be spontaneous. In fact, he gets so spontaneous that he has no control. When Aquirre was up the mountain looking for them, he witnessed Ennis grabbing Jack from behind, ripping his shirt off, and rough housing on the ground. That's spontaneous. The dozy embrace, that's spontaneous. Jumping down the stairs two by two, the passionate reunion kiss...even Jack the ever spontaneous was shocked and surprised by it.
And in the real world, no body has total control. Acknowledging his relationship with Jack would put Ennis even further behind in the control scorecard.
It is only in the final scenes, after Jack's death, when Ennis had to face his lack of control, when he finally acknowledged that all the control in the world was mere illusionary, and only Jack's love for him was real, for twenty years. Only Jack's Ma unconditional acceptance of him, of them, was real. Only Alma Jr's loving financee, their happiness were real.
Thanks, WW, you put this into perspective for me.
The more I've read these post the more questions I have. Didn't Ennis have that sense or the trace of carnivalesque? Enough to know to limit it? Is that the control your talking about? I see Ennis feasting when he's with Jack, feasting on Jack's body, his emotions, his love, then the fasting begins. Which might be pretty confusing for Jack.
Am I misunderstanding this? HELP!!
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Great thread,Tony¡ :t) (¡Muy bien¡)And nice posts also¡I´m afraid everything has been said on them,but here it is my opinion:
Fear of love:I think Ennis had lots of love to give and be given,but this need of love was united to loss sensation;first his parents died,after that his daughter,firstly,and after his brother, who left him to live their life...,even this sensation of loss connected with love could appear in Earl and Ritch´s story before young Ennis eyes.So he developed a kind of inability to show his feelings because he was afraid of loose,afraid of being alone after having loved. :-\\
Fear of being queer:In my opinion,both Ennis and Jack was a rootless young men,so when the first found someone who could play the alternative role of friend,companion,confidant,and even a "father of his same age" who gave him comprehension,affection,some advices,trust,etc.,the possibility that this situation became anything deeper was notable-including,at the end,sexual attraction and relationship-.The Earl and Ritch´s ghosts appeared soon after FNIT in Ennis mind(one more time,the duality love-loss),united with the fear in any man of loose his virility,that the environment in which both of them had raised only could increase...For Jack,I think it was not fear,but the need of hiding something that was deep inside him;his tendences and the progressive atraction-love? he was already feeling for Ennis;"I´m not queer"-"Me either",because confessing that he was not so innocent in gay issues has been a too hard revelation for Ennis sensibility,hard enough to end their incipient relationship. (t) However,I think even in Jack´s case, the magnitude of what he began to feel surpassed him, and therefore,scared him;he had had former relationships when he met Ennis,sure,but any other like this,he knew,and he was fighting all his short life against another fear: the one of loosing his greatest love. ???
The problem after all this for me is not only a question of fear in Ennis mind,but a question of communication,or a lack of it.Someone has told that their respective reactions when they were going to lef BBM was a question of bad communication, and I agree totally.Ennis thought Jack was laughing at him by lassoing him-do you say it so?- and got angry, and, on the other hand,wasn´t able to speak seriously with him.For not speaking about the farewell scene near the truck,speaking about their future projects,as if nothing has happenned,deplorable¡.As deplorable is spend 20 years of their life not being able to open to themselves firstly,and to each other after; for fear,for not being able to overcome a enviroment tradition and for lack of communication before all.
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The more I've read these post the more questions I have. Didn't Ennis have that sense or the trace of carnivalesque? Enough to know to limit it? Is that the control your talking about? I see Ennis feasting when he's with Jack, feasting on Jack's body, his emotions, his love, then the fasting begins. Which might be pretty confusing for Jack.
Am I misunderstanding this? HELP!!
Hi, manhattangirl, I am thinking of the conversation they had, when Ennis first loosened up, and spoke more words than in two weeks, then he smiled that gorgeous grin and said was more than he spoke in a year. I think this is revealing because at that moment, their feelings for each other begin to blossom. Jack finding Ennis can be spontaneous, respond to his lead, and Ennis finding Jack can be trusted not to hurt his feelings, not to ridicule when he says something wrong.
The control I spoke of is Ennis' tendency to be perfect in what he does, no matter what it is, no matter how small. Even putting up a tent, it has to be just right. He is that perfect cowboy, the one that Jack wasn't. Jack was the perfect rodeo cowboy, with flair and excitement, the one that Ennis wasn't. Together they were the perfect cowboy couple, fun and responsible...that was the Brokeback Mountain experience, IMO.
I don't think there was fasting, to use your analogy. After all, the reunion kiss, the high altitude #$%@s, they must be pretty filling and satisfying for Jack to keep coming back for more. It's more like a steady diet of delicious beans, when Jack wants more. Ennis was content with feeling the excitement that Jack brings to the relationship. Jack wants more, the sweet life, more time, more recognition...whatever it was that Jack wanted, it was more than Ennis could give at that time. Jack waited twenty years and was ready to give up when Ennis, transformed from the broken heart he suffered at the last meeting, healed by Cassie's example, attempted to start something. Jack's Ma acceptance was the final force that push Ennis to a new level which Jack would have been proud to see, and to be able to finally live that sweet life together.
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That there were no reins on their feelings is perhaps what frightens Ennis as well as the idea of what might happen to them if they lived together. Ennis likes to be in control; BBM is a sfe environment where he feels he doesn't need to be, but once off it he's back in what he sees as the real world, where real men don't express their feelings except under very special circumstances, eg on the honeymoon or with their children when they're small. Enni spends so long trying to control his relationship with Jack the one with Alma, even the one with Cassie, who (I think) also frightens him by trying to get him to loosen up.
In Bakhtin's term. Ennis has no trace of the carnivalesque;he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness. Jack isn't, and that's what both attracts him and frightens him.
That's an interesting way to put it WW. "...he is afraid of abandonment, spontaneity, emotional openness" -- this resonates with me.
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Exactly, Thomas. I know the topic is to try and break away from society and and the fear of being found out but those are very huge factors, if you take them away then there is not much to stop them fromliving freely and openly. IMO, society is another character in this story- the pink elephant in the room if you will. Both the movie and SS state that Earl and Rich were "tough, old birds" so to me that shows that no matter how tough you are you can still fall victim to hatred and I think that adds yet another layer to Ennis's fears- he's shown as tough and can kick someone's butt but being tough isn't a guarantee that he can combat that. I have no idea if that thought made sense- I can't get it out of my mind in a clear manner. ::)
Yes, a disapproving society looms large as a charcter in BBM. It is embodies in various characters seen throughout the movie -- and with enough variation so as not to make it look stereotypical.
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Hi, manhattangirl, I am thinking of the conversation they had, when Ennis first loosened up, and spoke more words than in two weeks, then he smiled that gorgeous grin and said was more than he spoke in a year. I think this is revealing because at that moment, their feelings for each other begin to blossom. Jack finding Ennis can be spontaneous, respond to his lead, and Ennis finding Jack can be trusted not to hurt his feelings, not to ridicule when he says something wrong.
The control I spoke of is Ennis' tendency to be perfect in what he does, no matter what it is, no matter how small. Even putting up a tent, it has to be just right. He is that perfect cowboy, the one that Jack wasn't. Jack was the perfect rodeo cowboy, with flair and excitement, the one that Ennis wasn't. Together they were the perfect cowboy couple, fun and responsible...that was the Brokeback Mountain experience, IMO.
I don't think there was fasting, to use your analogy. After all, the reunion kiss, the high altitude #$%@s, they must be pretty filling and satisfying for Jack to keep coming back for more. It's more like a steady diet of delicious beans, when Jack wants more. Ennis was content with feeling the excitement that Jack brings to the relationship. Jack wants more, the sweet life, more time, more recognition...whatever it was that Jack wanted, it was more than Ennis could give at that time. Jack waited twenty years and was ready to give up when Ennis, transformed from the broken heart he suffered at the last meeting, healed by Cassie's example, attempted to start something. Jack's Ma acceptance was the final force that push Ennis to a new level which Jack would have been proud to see, and to be able to finally live that sweet life together.
For me, Ennis was fasting after the feast, the couple of high altitude f@#ks was a strain on Jack, but for Ennis those were feast days. I agree with all of what you said, but Ennis for whatever reason lived in the wilderness of world that he wasn't part of, and wasn't ready to leave, fear of his real needs, fear of abandoment, whatever, he emotionally, and spiritually fasted, until the time he could again be with Jack, and that was the only time he was alive.
I don't know if I'm making sense.
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Manhattengirl, you really didn't need any help---the concept of feast and famine, or maybe feast and fasting, holds up very well. You are
very well organized.
I was not, in introducing this topic. Generally, somebody starts a thread, and then drops back to being a contributor, the moderators then
keeping things on track. I know where I went wrong and would like to cover that, while I can (my computer keeps crashing).
There are majority and minority opinions amongst the Brokies, on key issues. For example, whether Ennis was straight and fell off the
cliff from loneliness. The majority refer back to the SS to support repressed gay, and I have said there's considerable support for the film
breaking with the SS. In trolling around in old threads, have found at least 2 moderators who once supported the minority opinion, but, I guess
from a sense of discretion, have let that be. In another forum, I believe they are still battling this out.
Similarly, there is a tension between those who are most happy keeping strictly to the very real and certainly central theme of homophobia
in society and lingering in Ennis's mind-set, and those who want to go further to a more universal theme of the troubles of any great love
story, which just happens, in this case, to be gay issues. Any love story has issues. But are the issues the end of the story or really the
stage on which a larger, more universal and enduring experience is played out? Unfortunately, seeing these heart-breaking issues as a staging
ground, gives unnecessary offense to those who are focused there, and only there.
That was where I made my mistake. I brought those two areas into the wretchedly disorganized introduction. And didn't have to.
The topic of Fear of Love can stand on its own, and ALSO, can accomodate the majority and minority opinions. Am so very grateful that
the early contributors went past that mistake, caught the correct football, and ran with it.
As far as the fight on Brokeback Mountain being part of the topic title, there I meant that struggle as symbolic of the struggles later to
come as the two lovers wrestled, for decades, with their love for each other.
Having cleaned up the introduction, hopefully, anyone who wants to develop some of these beautiful posts that have been made, should
know---they are really going past previous threads and also, have to say, putting me in open PBS, which had avoided admitting before.
Again, before my computer goes wonky on me a few more times, thanks for going past the disorganized first post. FlowerChild's posts
got me to understand, the topic can cover both approaches----they were afraid of their love and I think that also includes Jack, although
to a lesser degree than Ennis, by far.
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Tony-You do it. Your ideas are thought provoking, and believe me when you post I always have to read it. You have two great ideas, now take us there, take us to a place where you want us to be, and discuss things we may not have even thought aboutl.
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Didn't like my last post-too complicated-so am going to fool around, a little, with what is either a defect in the story-line or something else
going on.
Myprivatejack points out the complete breakdown in communication as they break camp and then fight, and then finally part ways with
small talk. That, on the surface, is inconsistent with the collapse of sexual barriers and the progression to intense lovemaking. After all,
something should have been communicated with all that going on. The possibility that they were in denial and bubbling off the activity, and then
ignoring it the rest of the time doesn't hold up as they were frequent fliers and the schedule was during days and nights. They knew they
were lovers, which means--no denials. So why the meltdown when they break camp?
It really seems to be that they saw a stopping of the clock, a time-less period when all rules were suspended. The clock starting up again
only when breaking camp to come down off the mountain. A cheaper way to put this would be the phrase-what happens in Vegas stays in
Vegas. If am going from too complex in the previous post to too simplistic here, can't help that. Either the story-line is flawed or, both
had signalled an agreement to that formula, to allow the rules to collapse. It is, after all, easier to go for a one night stand than to make a
life-time commitment. It was upside down from the start because inherent in accepting collapse of the rules was the formula that it was
only temporary doings. But they had each fallen in love and had not communicated THAT by the time of breaking camp.
Also, although in love, they were unfamiliar with love, and so very possibly not sure what they were dealing with. Most great love stories
relate confusion over the meaning of unfamiliar feelings (West Side Story, for example).
So, however simplistic this is, Jack was right, later, when he said-there was never enough time. When the idyllic dream world on the mountain
was fractured by the early breaking camp, there wasn't enough time, when the clock started ticking again, to sort things out.
Which leads me to wonder if they both had an internal clock that said there was still enough time up there to break the original formula, and
they were putting that off as they believed they still had a month to go. That they would have confronted the issue of love better if
Aguirre hadn't yanked them off the mountain.
Myprivatejack, I think they would have communicated better if Aguirre hadn't jumped the clock. There might well have been a chance our
two radical puppies would have worked out something better than those formal, meaningless words said as they parted. As it was, they
really didn't even trade addresses.
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Tony,
The fear of Love, the fear of love not returned, fear of abandonment, degrees of the love, all of these things we all can identify with. I think, (I may be wrong) you want to go beyond the fear of coming out, their love is out so let's move on. Now they have to wrestle with idea of the love. Am I wrong?
You brought up Jonathan and David, and love stumbled upon, wasn't that how it was with Jack and Ennis. Jonathan hid David to protect him, protect from Saul. Ennis hides Jack on Brokeback to protect him, Ennis will always live with memory of his father . Jonathan makes David swear because he loved him as he love his own soul. "Jack I swear". David didn't understand the anger of Saul, the fear of "two guys living together, no way", I don't think Jack wanted to understand that one.
In the final confrontation "I not queer" wasn't discuss, but the fear of love and the loss of love was.
my thoughts.
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For me, Ennis was fasting after the feast, the couple of high altitude f@#ks was a strain on Jack, but for Ennis those were feast days. I agree with all of what you said, but Ennis for whatever reason lived in the wilderness of world that he wasn't part of, and wasn't ready to leave, fear of his real needs, fear of abandoment, whatever, he emotionally, and spiritually fasted, until the time he could again be with Jack, and that was the only time he was alive.
I don't know if I'm making sense.
Absolutely. I see what you mean, and I agree with you. Ennis feasted on Jack and fasted when he was alone. How the man can stand it speaks loudly for the strength of his character, and his stoicism. It is also why Ennis broke down when Jack complained that he had no idea how bad it gets. The man knows very well how bad it gets, and he suffers with it everyday. As you said, he only comes alive when he is with Jack. I see him in the bar scene before Cassie joined him, sitting there, staring at the empty beer bottles. Why doesn't Ennis simply get up and move to Texas, as Jack suggested? Some of you say he was afraid of being exposed, some of you say he was afraid of love, of being rejected, of losing Jack... I say it was simply inertia and Ennis' tendency to take the conservative route. He wasn't a risk taker. When Alma told him about the job at the power plant, he automatically turned it down without a second thought. That's when Alma finally decided to divorce him, and initiated, IMO, that horrible bedroom scene..."I can have 'em if you can support 'em." It was a mean way to get a husband to divorce you. She never forgave him for lying all those years. I don't blame her, but it was still mean.
Anyway, I ramble OT... ~)
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Tony – You’re off into interesting territory here no doubt. I gotta “go to the video tape here” (i.e. text) - the SS really doesn’t talk about “love” much up on Brokeback. That all really comes later; even the Dozy Embrace is actually a remembrance of an event that was “solidified in his memory” 20 years later, not necessarily as it actually happened up on the mountain. It may have been mostly imagined by Jack, huh? (Whut? It didn't happen? ^^)) The only real sex on Brokeback after “no instruction manual needed” is laid out like this:
Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top grade headache, and Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it, both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddam word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one shot thing. Nobody's business but ours." There were only the two of them on the mountain, flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
I’m sure no love expert but ”not saying a goddam word” doesn’t sound like a lot of lovin’ was going on, more like a lot mutual self-gratification. These are 19 y.o. boys after all, love is not a big idea but sex sure is. The movie of course does go there; SNIT has LOVE written all over it. So yes, I think your absolutely right, there’s a crack in the structures here, the SS never goes to love (and the recognition of love) until later (years later), the movie goes to love up on Brokeback but then pulls back with the seeming inability to communicate much simpler emotions during the camp breakup. Of course this is requirement if they are going to have the fight, which sheds the blood. (Communion? uh, oh I’m not going there).
I’ve always chalked this up to differences required due to the medium, the tempos they follow, the literacy they require. Real intersting discusson, not sure this has added much. ???
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Hi, Manhattengirl---yes and no. Yes, I think it's needed to go past the single fear of coming out, but, no, not at the expense of
undermining that central problem. It should be possible to look at the problems of any love, applying to our Ennis and Jack, without taking
away from the obvious dilemma of same-sex issues. Fear of gay love, then, and also, finally moving to fear of love, universally understood,
fear of that love, too.
The development of the analogy to Jonathon and David was unexpected. Had forgotten the details. Maybe there's some underlying theme
in the human psyche of a lover protecting the beloved from the rage of a parent.
Lance, the sense you have of Ennis being conservative and unable to change much---inertia--is very true, and he says he knows this about
himself when he says he has trouble, what was it?---getting around a coffee pot? I forget. But if true, this lessens the force of the charges
against him that he was paralyzed over gay issues, and only that. No, he was having troubles with changes of any kind, all his life.
Jackster, yeah, the difference is there, between the SS and the film. Nothing can ever be taken away from Annie by acknowledging this.
Have always thought of it that she gave birth to Ennis and Jack, but they developed further, on their own.
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[...] Lance, the sense you have of Ennis being conservative and unable to change much---inertia--is very true, and he says he knows this about
himself when he says he has trouble, what was it?---getting around a coffee pot? I forget. But if true, this lessens the force of the charges
against him that he was paralyzed over gay issues, and only that. No, he was having troubles with changes of any kind, all his life.
[...]
"Mexico? Hell...you know me. 'Bout all the travelin' I ever done is goin' aroung the coffee pot, lookin' for the handle."
"I doubt there's nothing' we can do. I'm stuck with what I got here. Makin' a livin's about all I got time for now."
"If you can't fix it, Jack,... you gotta stand it."
I recall Manhattangirl suggested that Ennis had fear of abandonment and commitment issues from the loss of his family all through childhood. I think perhaps this loss also contributes to a sense of helplessness in his ability to change the world. He feels that he is powerless, poor and alone, to do anything about what's outside of his sphere of influence, which is on the ranch, doing cowboy stuff, and from all appearances, he is great at it. Within his own little world, especially with Jack in it, Ennis is king of the world. Outside of it, he gets smacked, each and every time. It probably made him fear change, fear making change. It took Alma a lot of seduction to get him to move to Riverton, and guess what, she fell for the assistant manager. Would she divorce him so readily if she doesn't have a beau in the wing? Ennis must have thought that. It's not just inertia, it's the whole loneliness issue again. Him against the world, except when Jack is with him. And especially when they are in Brokeback Mountain, then the world consists of only the two of them. Him and Jack livin' together, like two tough old birds? If death and destruction don't scare him, the whole world comin' down on him would. The pink elephant, to quote LJN from another thread, is real and scary to Ennis. Like it or not, that's just him. Jack loved Ennis, in spite of it, and put up with all the crap that it entails...like driving fourteen hours each way, two three times a year, like the cold fricking weather, like the ...never enough time. Okay, no pBS...
Thanks, Tony, for asking great questions. I'd never expand on this if you didn't bring it up. I just love this movie soooo much. It's rich with everything meaningful. And it's wonderful to be able to share it, discuss it, savor it, with you all.
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LJN, you already did it (causing PBS) with that new (at least, to me) reading of Jack as bullied or trashed by little men with no soul. If you
don't feel it's long enough for a new thread, could you develop it here? As in going a little further and getting feedback? It is on topic because
fear of love can go anywhere you want to develop it.
I tried to come up with wording for a new thread on this and I'm really bad at that so I gave up. ::) But to carry along the other men theme, let's look at Ennis's father. We all know about the horror he showed Ennis at nine years old but let's look at this from the SS when Ennis and Jack are at the Motel Siesta. Ennis is talking about how KE used to beat him up and this is an excerpt from that:
"Dad says, you got a take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he gets the message. Nothin like hurting somebody to make him hear good..... The lesson was, don't say nothin and get it over with quick."
So what is that lesson? Hurt or be hurt? To me it seems as if his father basically taught him that you solve things with your fists. And based on other comments in the SS that him bringing Ennis to see Earl's body wasn't the only time his homophobia was instilled in Ennis- the remarks that were mentioned and when Ennis says to Jack "If he was alive and was to poke his head in that door right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron." He had that hatred instilled in him a lot it seems- to believe that your own father would kill you. But on the flip side it does speak volumes as to how much Ennis loved Jack- it was stronger than any of those "lessons" he was taught in that he was unable to fight it. But, the fear is what held him back from having a complete life with Jack.
There is a thread about Rich in here and until that member brought it out it had never occurred to me that Rich was a very tragic figure here too. I only focused on Earl and that always stuck with me in that Ennis was afraid of becoming Earl or having Jack end up like Earl and in the end Ennis ended up being Rich- the last one left standing. A fate worse than death, perhaps?
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Tony, your "wonky ideas" are welcome here-we all have our own ideas, impressions and feelings concerning this film/story and that's what makes for good discussion and those things are as unique as we are. I don't agree with everything that was ever said here and I'm sure not everyone has agreed with anything I've come up with over the past 18+ months- that's the nature of the beast so to speak but I've found on this forum that there isn't "member bashing"- we keep it respectful. For me these discussions have made me see things I never would have found on my own and have really enhanced the whole experience. For me to take the homophobic society out of the equation is hard because I see that as a major hinderance to them. I'm not sure I can "think outside the box" concerning that, but that's me.
Another member and i had discussed the circumcised and uncircumcised aspect that AP wrote about- knowing that she doesn't waste words we felt it was significant but really couldn't come up with anything other than it just showed a difference between the two. Nothing too dramatic in breaking it down as you can see but I'd love to hear thoughts on that. I'd love to discuss the other men in the story too, I just can't word the start of the topic the right way.
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Thanks, LJN---no one has been unkind to me here. Even when I clearly went way off topic, and had to reform myself. But I meant to
say various recent posts reminded me of a time, very painful, when I provoked extreme reactions just being myself. And there are three Brokies
that I have offended, unwittingly, and this go round, it was me in the wrong, not them. Cyberspace prevents really seeing a person means
no harm. Those 3 just avoid me, because I did not adapt my words correctly. But they have not been cruel. Just silent. Can't blame them.
Did not express myself well, yet again. When I said take the homophobic out of the equation, I meant temporarily, to see what was left over.
Of course it's understood that is central. But then, is there anything past that and I saw the climate of guys, without reference to gay issues,
having problems with Jack being lively and, maybe even needy, and so I think if Jack had never slept with another man, the climate still
could have killed him, for he was spontaneous and full of life and that was threatening. The guy who called him a piss-ant was part of a
climate that frowned on being lively. I really believe the rodeo clown just thought he was being too friendly- a nerd. Jack was being battered
as a person from that climate, and then further destroyed by a homophobic climate affecting Ennis's choices. No, LJN, taking the homophobic
out of the equation permanently was never meant, and is clearly wrong. But do it briefly, and you might see the other hurts.
As for the uncircumcised father meaning anything, am glad someone else agrees it's an odd thing for our non-wordy Annie to do. So I finally
looked her up on the internet (am, in fact, slow) and I believe, now, anything is fair game. Why? Because she is not a gifted local prodigy
from out west. She was East Coast, with advanced degrees. And her assumption of the western slang and mood is an advanced technique
that began in Russia in the 19th century called skaz. Not imitating the Russians, necessarily, it also showed up here, with Mark Twain.
So with our beloved and respected lady, it's about time to quit supposing she hasn't been influenced by and fully familiar with literary
theories or that she cannot weave in some very deep stuff almost accidentally, for the lady cannot shed her education nor her ability to think.
But as to the uncircumcised father, depends on how much symbolism can be found in her other works. If very little, then she was being
careful to make the scene more realistic and therefore more traumatic as he pissed on his son. Poor Jack. She was showing him as a
victim of males from the very start.
Manhattengirl, I've looked up Jonathon and David and the oaths sworn at different times. All I can be sure of is the love itself, shown in
this quote from David's lament (Sam. II, 1-26):
"Your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of woman."
Well, anybody want to wander around in how isolated Ennis and Jack were from other males, how they had brutal fathers, and how this
led them developing differently, but still with fear of love? Same-sex love, or any kind of love? Even why didn't they develop further
with their wives? Will, myself, get back to LJN's theme of bullying (not her words-mine) when there's a way to develop it.
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Did not express myself well, yet again. When I said take the homophobic out of the equation, I meant temporarily, to see what was left over.
Of course it's understood that is central. But then, is there anything past that and I saw the climate of guys, without reference to gay issues,
having problems with Jack being lively and, maybe even needy, and so I think if Jack had never slept with another man, the climate still
could have killed him, for he was spontaneous and full of life and that was threatening. The guy who called him a piss-ant was part of a
climate that frowned on being lively. I really believe the rodeo clown just thought he was being too friendly- a nerd. Jack was being battered
as a person from that climate, and then further destroyed by a homophobic climate affecting Ennis's choices. No, LJN, taking the homophobic
out of the equation permanently was never meant, and is clearly wrong. But do it briefly, and you might see the other hurts.
As for the uncircumcised father meaning anything, am glad someone else agrees it's an odd thing for our non-wordy Annie to do.....But as to the uncircumcised father, depends on how much symbolism can be found in her other works. If very little, then she was being
careful to make the scene more realistic and therefore more traumatic as he pissed on his son. Poor Jack. She was showing him as a
victim of males from the very start.
Tony, You were clear in your wording to explore the issue of love itself and all that comes with it, as well as other themes that come into play. I was just saying that for me it's hard to separate the two- it's a me thing. :) But I will try to look at it with new eyes.
I went back to the SS to that awful scene with young Jack and his father and this idea may seem out there but here goes anyway: "I seen they cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand." I still think it just shows the difference between Jack and his father but I'm also thinking the line I quoted may be important too. Is it possible that the reference to livestock made Jack feel like he was "owned"? That he was marked much like a piece of property as opposed to a child? I know that may seem like a stretch but I do have a curiousity about that piece of the SS.
I will try to come up with more thoughts on Jack and the other men in the story/movie. :)
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LJN---I think the quote itself is a bullseye hit, but am of a different mind as to what it means. You suggest maybe being owned or branded,
and that could well be so. But what jumped off the screen at me was the first part: "I seen they cut me different..." The shrinks say we guys
identify our very selves with our--equipment. However else the sentence goes, those words, to me, suggest Jack felt he was made differently
from other men. Certainly from his father. Cut differently=made differently. And so could never fit in with the world his father represented. It's
a stretch, to use only the first half of the sentence, but that was my immediate reaction.
It fits in well with always being the outsider and always being rejected. Until Ennis. There his life-force, his liveliness, was a medicine to a
young man also always left out. I know the killing of Earl affected him, but have always felt the casual discarding of him by his brother affected
him greatly. For if what's left of your family don't want you--you ain't got nothing, you are nobody, long before you complain that it's because
of Jack at their last time together.
Two very discardable males, then. One feeling that he was "cut differently" and maybe that could explain to a child why he felt unwanted.
The other seeing Earl dead-for loving, gay love, sure, but for loving (he admired them--please, everybody, remember how he admired them-
"they waz tough, old birds..") and then discarded, for no good reason that holds up, by his only remaining kin, none of whom wanted him.
Long before they met, the isolation of each had set in. Ennis was stoic and accepting. Jack was---a dreamer, and would not accept this
coldness around them. That was what caused Ennis to love him. What he saw in Ennis was as you have pointed out, the first male to accept
him for himself. Wow, was the stage set well when they met outside Aguirre's trailer.
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Long before they met, the isolation of each had set in. Ennis was stoic and accepting. Jack was---a dreamer, and would not accept this
coldness around them. That was what caused Ennis to love him. What he saw in Ennis was as you have pointed out, the first male to accept
him for himself. Wow, was the stage set well when they met outside Aguirre's trailer.
Tony was this a cloak of acceptance each offered the other? Take me the rest of the way.
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No, Manhattengirl, you are already there. The cloak of acceptance they offered each other is the top of the mountain, and, in that
direction, there is no further heighth. Unless, of course, you want to jump up in the air, briefly, to rejoice in how life found for them at
least some healing, from their respective hurts.
Am, myself, a little troubled by my own looking into the SS and Annie Proulx. Each of the contributors in these types of threads has a
stable and productive perspective. Jackster, for example, with his casual organization of the scenes. LJN, varying from thoughtful, to
touching a raw PBS nerve, by her empathy for Jack. You, yourself, vary, but usually end up with a one sentence conclusion, often very
empathetic, that covers all the previous territory.
But, yesterday, when I looked up Annie on the internet, I found too much. The territory of literary criticism is often pompous, frequently
gibberish, but absolutely necessary for a full appreciation of an author's style and content. Had some training in that area, and left it with
fear and loathing. Am certain Annie knows the literary theories and also that, like any author, would love to smack some of the theorists
up a side of the head. So, I have had a hangover, from confronting that, yesterday, and wondering if it is productive.
You have more or less settled the issue I've been troubled by. Your sentence covers that particular territory, and I really believe it
is the best rendering, there.
By the way, what's troubling me is her style. She did a lot of screenplay work for the movie, in advance, before there was a plan fora film.
And that's because she creates her work WITH camera shots and scenes, even angles of those camera shots. Which means to me she
had this much in her mind, visually. And that's bugging me.
Thanks for your use of the phrase "cloak of acceptance"---it covers much of the previous posts and gets rid of my hangover from yesterday's
wonderings.
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*o) We're not - it was all hype and passed without incident.
I think the Western ethos, and the character of Ennis which is a product of it, goes back to the Stoic tradition of the ancient world.
Jack is the Dionysian, if you like......though I think Ennis not really Apollonian!
Like most Brits, I ignore the French and their philosophies. :) In fact we have an apposite expression - "I spit me of" in this case "JP Sartre and all his works."
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Hi-Welshwitch--glad it was all hype. And yes, Jack is Dionysian, a real life force, especially after a few drinks.
Anyway, am having some "issues" with this thread.
1) looked back, and found its origin in Manhattengirl's thread-"Should Ennis take some of the blame?" In some early replies,
there were some references to fear of love, in general, rather than gay love, and even from contributors here who have had
troubles, now, separating the two. I think this was already on the minds of some, but vaguely.....
2) have discovered that the same day I began wretchedly long posts was the same day the heat came on (electric) and got a
sinus infection and relentless fever. Saw, on MG's thread, a missing post. Was wondering if it's possible to delete a couple
of my posts? That way, anybody coming in late would have a smoother flow.
3) we may have passed up developing some good directions. Jackster's careful post, mostly probing the difference between SS
and fillm in development of love comes to mind. Flowerchild's sense of a bubble of isolation on the mountain. And one am
working on, society as the third character (from LJN).
A lot of good stuff, and I hope this thread can be salvaged. Meanwhile, will take me two aspirins, and call meself in the morning, or whatever.
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Hmmmm.....this post, if not read correctly, could get me into the doggie house. Probably will. Am pursuing society as the 3rd character in BBM.
We are comfortable with seeing that society only in terms of being homophobic, but I would say that society feared ratifying the humanity of
others and further, (here goes trouble), we are ourselves, can be as guilty as them.
They didn't see their coldness because they only saw glimpses, whereas we were given, in the film, the extended focus. Think about it...
Aguirre. The villain. Yet he didn't rush in with a tire iron, after seeing their sexual horseplay. Nor did he tell it all over the town. As much as
disapproving of the sex, he was angry at....the lack of attention to their jobs. A few harsh words (to which he was prone), and he dropped it.
The rodeo clown. Unlike some others, I instinctively see in those scenes, contempt for Jack for being friendly---too quick. Heck, that clown
coulda BEEN gay, and the reaction would have been the same, for gay bars contain a million such brush-offs (assuming, of course, it wasn't
dreamy Jake/Jack). We are afraid of people who come on too strong.
The guy who called Jack a piss-ant. Maybe we don't use those terms, but please don't tell me you have never once in your life had a
bad reaction to someone.
Ennis being dumped by his family, as inconvenient. May God help us all, we dump people during our lives. We do.
To get your attention-the attention of a community that seeks more tolerance....US, as the 3rd character in other's lives.....
You all know about Matthew Shepherd. Did you know the only mass slaughter of gays happened....here in Norfolk, in the early 1970's?
A gunman opened fire in a bar downtown, killing 9-12 gays. It was news, briefly, but forgotten. Why? The gays were black, they were
transvestites (of whom the local gay community didn't feel comfortable defending) and even the transvestite community didn't rally because
the victims were old, not snazzy and good-looking, etc. Earl and Rich--here in Norfolk. It was also hushed up because the gunman tracked
to the Norfolk Police. He was their mascot, their pet. And, no one pursued the factor of rage in the police as bars had just been legalized,
and there were no more....pay offs for protection from the vice squad (which I personally witnessed). Nobody, even gays..cared.
How about Senator Larry Craig? Trashed by the GOP, his friends. But also abandoned by the gay community for his falseness. Who lost?
We did. The arrest was illegal. Tapping a foot on the floor? Get real. He was left to rot, because...we don't like him.
In BBM, we had the advantage of seeing what those around Jack and Ennis didn't see....the full love story. And THAT separated us from
that society there, homophobic, yes, but also afraid to look closer and love and ratify and accept, unless at a scheduled pace. But we still
have, in us all, a coldness, at times, which is necessary to get on with life. We can't wallow in everybody elses troubles, and we are no
longer sweet, little children--we must defend, as did the rodeo clown, against those who don't fit our formula.
The challenge of BBM, then, may well be to reduce the fear of love, that exists in all of us, not just in a homophobic area, but where
we can reasonably do so, in all areas of life. We'll never get there 100%--we're human. But in looking at society as the 3rd character in
BBM, we do well to lighten up a little, and remember, we are the 3rd character in so many other lives. I don't think the rodeo clown was
homophobic or hateful. At this risk of everybody's wrath---we have all been that clown at one time or another. Tony.
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LJN---I think the quote itself is a bullseye hit, but am of a different mind as to what it means. You suggest maybe being owned or branded,
and that could well be so. But what jumped off the screen at me was the first part: "I seen they cut me different..." The shrinks say we guys
identify our very selves with our--equipment. However else the sentence goes, those words, to me, suggest Jack felt he was made differently
from other men. Certainly from his father. Cut differently=made differently. And so could never fit in with the world his father represented. It's
a stretch, to use only the first half of the sentence, but that was my immediate reaction.
It fits in well with always being the outsider and always being rejected. Until Ennis. There his life-force, his liveliness, was a medicine to a
young man also always left out. I know the killing of Earl affected him, but have always felt the casual discarding of him by his brother affected
him greatly. For if what's left of your family don't want you--you ain't got nothing, you are nobody, long before you complain that it's because
of Jack at their last time together.
Two very discardable males, then. One feeling that he was "cut differently" and maybe that could explain to a child why he felt unwanted.
The other seeing Earl dead-for loving, gay love, sure, but for loving (he admired them--please, everybody, remember how he admired them-
"they waz tough, old birds..") and then discarded, for no good reason that holds up, by his only remaining kin, none of whom wanted him.
Long before they met, the isolation of each had set in. Ennis was stoic and accepting. Jack was---a dreamer, and would not accept this
coldness around them. That was what caused Ennis to love him. What he saw in Ennis was as you have pointed out, the first male to accept
him for himself. Wow, was the stage set well when they met outside Aguirre's trailer.
Very well said- all of it. :)
I do think the circumcision aspect was just to show how Jack was "different".
They were both the outsiders looking in so to speak and that's what helped bond them together. Perhaps maybe the first positive male influence either had in their young lives. I do see Jack as the dreamer but also as nurturing which is what Ennis more than likely needed even if he wasn't aware of it himself. Then you have Ennis who responded to Jack and all of his silliness but that goes right back to Ennis accepting him as he was. One of my favorite scenes is when Ennis finally opens up and starts talking- the smile on Jack's face at breaking down those walls and having this man open up to him just makes me happy. I always giggle there when Ennis says "Hell thats more words than I spoke in a year" and then just keeps on chatting and then teasing Jack about the rodeo'ing- it's just a great moment between the two of them.
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Hmmmm.....this post, if not read correctly, could get me into the doggie house. Probably will. Am pursuing society as the 3rd character in BBM.
We are comfortable with seeing that society only in terms of being homophobic, but I would say that society feared ratifying the humanity of
others and further, (here goes trouble), we are ourselves, can be as guilty as them.
They didn't see their coldness because they only saw glimpses, whereas we were given, in the film, the extended focus. Think about it...
Aguirre. The villain. Yet he didn't rush in with a tire iron, after seeing their sexual horseplay. Nor did he tell it all over the town. As much as
disapproving of the sex, he was angry at....the lack of attention to their jobs. A few harsh words (to which he was prone), and he dropped it.
The rodeo clown. Unlike some others, I instinctively see in those scenes, contempt for Jack for being friendly---too quick. Heck, that clown
coulda BEEN gay, and the reaction would have been the same, for gay bars contain a million such brush-offs (assuming, of course, it wasn't
dreamy Jake/Jack). We are afraid of people who come on too strong.
The guy who called Jack a piss-ant. Maybe we don't use those terms, but please don't tell me you have never once in your life had a
bad reaction to someone.
Ennis being dumped by his family, as inconvenient. May God help us all, we dump people during our lives. We do.
In BBM, we had the advantage of seeing what those around Jack and Ennis didn't see....the full love story. And THAT separated us from
that society there, homophobic, yes, but also afraid to look closer and love and ratify and accept, unless at a scheduled pace. But we still
have, in us all, a coldness, at times, which is necessary to get on with life. We can't wallow in everybody elses troubles, and we are no
longer sweet, little children--we must defend, as did the rodeo clown, against those who don't fit our formula.
The challenge of BBM, then, may well be to reduce the fear of love, that exists in all of us, not just in a homophobic area, but where
we can reasonably do so, in all areas of life. We'll never get there 100%--we're human. But in looking at society as the 3rd character in
BBM, we do well to lighten up a little, and remember, we are the 3rd character in so many other lives. I don't think the rodeo clown was
homophobic or hateful. At this risk of everybody's wrath---we have all been that clown at one time or another. Tony.
No wrath coming from this way. We are all human and not without our faults and I think you are right- we've been that third character at one point or another- I know I have.
I think you are pretty much spot on with Aguirre- he was a businessman. I do wonder if that had anything to do with calling them down early from the mountain or if the storm was legit. He didn't want to hire Jack for a third summer and I don't know if that had anything to do with the count not being what he'd hoped for or if it was his disdain for what Jack and Ennis were doing he said "Ain't got no work for you" and then after Jack asked for Ennis he made the other comments. I tend to think it was a mix but more from a business stand point as opposed to homophobia.
I was worried with the rodeo clown when he was pointing back after Jack offered to buy him the beer and made eyes at him. Again I'm not sure if it was homophobic because he surely could have gathered up a bunch of good ole boys and handled "business" if that were the case.
You know in typing this out I'm starting to wonder if we were meant to see that at least from Jack's perspective, no one had tire irons at the ready- there were two cases right there where Jack was pretty much outed and yet no one came after him. Maybe that adds another layer to his thinking that it would be okay to ranch up- that people might suspect but not everyone is ready to kill. I know he takes Ennis's fears to heart but he has managed to get further than the coffee pot and is exposed to a little more.
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this is going back to something said ealier in the thread, about the isolation of Jack and Ennis on BBM. Some time back i was oursuing an idea about the American creation of small closed worlds meant to encapsulate the sort of Utopia that the new country had promised. The National/State parks systems are obvious examples, representing as they do the green bosom of the New World as Gatsby's sailors may have seen it. Then there are the historical reproductions like Williamsburg, Plymouth Plantation and Sturbridge representing the mythical settler past and beyond those city parks and the whole idea od rus in urb, appropriate to an agrarian democracy, then theme parks,places where the world is kept out ( eg by the berm around Disneyworld) so that what's inside is pure pleasure, then the expositions ( like the Centennial and Colombian expositions) representing the possibilities of the US in terms of what it could invent/produce. then the latest ( to my mind debased) manifestation in shopping malls, of a world of abundance.
BBM seems to me just another example of that - when you admit that the dream of the New World as the city on the hill, the great beacon to humanity, isn't realisable, so you try to recreate fragments of it by isolating different aspects in which people can forget all the rest that's outside. But of course outside doesn't go away and in the end you are forced back into it, and a realisation that the dream is just that. You can of course go back to Bryce Canyon or Six Flags or one of the Gallerias, but the second time is never the same, often slightly disappointing in a way that's not easy to define - maybe because after being outside you can see the limitations of the original and the disconnect where the two worlds join, or the contrast between the ideal and the reality. To me that's what Jack and Ennis found when they ( symbolically and literally) came down from the mountain.
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this is going back to something said ealier in the thread, about the isolation of Jack and Ennis on BBM. Some time back i was oursuing an idea about the American creation of small closed worlds meant to encapsulate the sort of Utopia that the new country had promised. The National/State parks systems are obvious examples, representing as they do the green bosom of the New World as Gatsby's sailors may have seen it. Then there are the historical reproductions like Williamsburg, Plymouth Plantation and Sturbridge representing the mythical settler past and beyond those city parks and the whole idea od rus in urb, appropriate to an agrarian democracy, then theme parks,places where the world is kept out ( eg by the berm around Disneyworld) so that what's inside is pure pleasure, then the expositions ( like the Centennial and Colombian expositions) representing the possibilities of the US in terms of what it could invent/produce. then the latest ( to my mind debased) manifestation in shopping malls, of a world of abundance.
BBM seems to me just another example of that - when you admit that the dream of the New World as the city on the hill, the great beacon to humanity, isn't realisable, so you try to recreate fragments of it by isolating different aspects in which people can forget all the rest that's outside. But of course outside doesn't go away and in the end you are forced back into it, and a realisation that the dream is just that. You can of course go back to Bryce Canyon or Six Flags or one of the Gallerias, but the second time is never the same, often slightly disappointing in a way that's not easy to define - maybe because after being outside you can see the limitations of the original and the disconnect where the two worlds join, or the contrast between the ideal and the reality. To me that's what Jack and Ennis found when they ( symbolically and literally) came down from the mountain.
I think this very much mirrors what Ang Lee said in NYC: about BBM being a kind of Eden for both of them, and where the absence or near absence of the fear to love is akin to innocence and a state of grace.
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Hi, LJN! Those scenes with the rodeo clown are another example of subtlety that can cause us to see what we want to see. Chameau
has a picture of Jack staring directly at Ennis' crotch, in a tech support thread. The picture is great fun, but could also be Exhibit A that Jack
was overtly seductive. However, in real life, women and men size each other up and, if filmed, with a freeze-frame, could make anybody look
overly interested. Saw this on t.v., so, it's not from me.
As for that being part of a movie, rather than real life, I think if Jake wanted to convey that, he would have. Looks to me from that, and
other scenes picked out as crotch watching, that Jake took the choice of being natural in his eye-movements, as they were identical to what
I have noticed, after seeing that t.v. show about human behavior. In fact, as Jake takes a swig of whiskey before dancing a jig, the once-over
is male-challenging rather than male-interested. Jake's acting replicated natural behavior, and I think it was a deliberate choice.
The rodeo clown scenes, I've always felt, from a LOT of experience in taverns, showed a brush-off of someone too needy for friendship,
who is coming on too strong. I saw guys doing that all the time in straight bars, and then, yeah, a very slight put-down of the other guy,
as if he were gay. Just like that scene. Male politics and behavior control.
The concept of Jack regularly cruising, just isn't there, for me. Randall cruised HIM, and Jack only gradually caught on to the implications,
sittting outside the Moose Lodge.
Welshwitch, you are right about those bubbles in the U.S., idealized locations. Flowerchild went there, as far as a bubble on the mountain,
and you saw that, too. When Ang Lee called the mountain their Eden, tpe caught that and beat me to the punch. That's got to be accepted,
now, I would think, as the artist/interpreter, the director, finally gave us something to go with.
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This discussion has been very interesting all along, but it's this bubble concept that intrigues me. Is this something American only? I tend to think it is a part of the human condition. We all are looking for our own personal nirvana, and particularly looking to share it with someone special to us. People tend to travel far and wide looking for that isolated spot; rich people purchase islands to live on. or penthouses in the middle of busy cities which raise them above the masses in their own private aeriea.
I agree that that was the role of the mountain. Where else could Jack and Ennis have met in such isolation and amid such beauty?
And they never went back. They certainly could have returned to BBM, but never did. It had fulfilled its purpose -- that of being the catalyst that brought them together. From that point on, they could only go forward -- never backwards in time. Whatever was ahead of them had to be faced in its own time. That meant in society, hostile or uncaring, brutal or accepting.
To get back to the fight: I have always thought of that fight as the time when both men totally realized they had taken a step into a situation from which they could not extract themselves. Even if they were never to see one another again, they knew they were joined in that moment in that place. Ennis, as usual, to me, could not accept what he had done -- been intimate with a man. He knew he had done it, maybe he didn't regret it completely, but he knew it had changed him and he wasn't sure he welcomed that change. Jack never understood this. He didn't know what had hit him -- what in the hell had gotten into Ennis? He had been playing; Ennis turned mean.
Back at the truck when they were parting, Jack still didn't know why Ennis had hit him, and he really didn't let that change anything as far as his feelings for Ennis. He wanted to repeat their experiences of the summer. Ennis, of course, figured this was a one shot thing. Ennis still had not come to grips with what had happened to him and its permanence in his life -- that didn't come until he was walking away from Jack and broke down in the shed. Well, as usualy, just my opinion.
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And a very well-reasoned one at that. Thanks, Lamusica. About the bubble issue, yes it is everywhere, but I do see Welshwitch's point, that
this has been developed much more heavily, in the U.S. As far as this relating to Ang Lee's Eden remarks, well, tpe developed them further, and
you yourself saw exactly what both meant-a reference to an isolated place of beauty, a heaven, and, as tpe said a place of innocence, of knowing
no behavior as sin.
The fight on the mountain, however, I will always see as Ennis' rage against wrong signals sent by Jack.
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Welshwitch, you are right about those bubbles in the U.S., idealized locations. Flowerchild went there, as far as a bubble on the mountain,
and you saw that, too. When Ang Lee called the mountain their Eden, tpe caught that and beat me to the punch. That's got to be accepted,
now, I would think, as the artist/interpreter, the director, finally gave us something to go with.
One of the reasons why I so much love the beautiful scenes up in BBM is the gradual whittling away of their fears and inhibitions towards each other. As I looked at it, Ang Lee seemed to suggest that the two of them were in some primeval age of innocence. That their sexual and emotional awakening constituted the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and Aguirre (a jealous god?) spying on their games of love brought about their immediate expulsion from Paradise, from which they would never return.
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This discussion has been very interesting all along, but it's this bubble concept that intrigues me. Is this something American only? I tend to think it is a part of the human condition. We all are looking for our own personal nirvana, and particularly looking to share it with someone special to us. People tend to travel far and wide looking for that isolated spot; rich people purchase islands to live on. or penthouses in the middle of busy cities which raise them above the masses in their own private aeriea.
I agree that that was the role of the mountain. Where else could Jack and Ennis have met in such isolation and amid such beauty?
And they never went back. They certainly could have returned to BBM, but never did. It had fulfilled its purpose -- that of being the catalyst that brought them together. From that point on, they could only go forward -- never backwards in time. Whatever was ahead of them had to be faced in its own time. That meant in society, hostile or uncaring, brutal or accepting.
***
This is certainly common with Americans here in the US. For some reason, I have always thought that this is because most people here cling to some idealized notion of independence, wherein the fear of "other people" is embedded deep within.
To live and to love the way they see fit always seems tro be connected with some imagined Utopia in the American phsyche. Perhaps the vastness of the land has something to do with it. The Whitmanesque/Thoreauesque desire to live apart from a "corrupting" society -- to "go back to nature", I suppose, is much easily imagined if one can get lost in some vastness.
I feel that this is what Ennis and Jack embodied in BBM. They had somehow found themselves by being lost in the vastness of what surrounded them. There was nothing to fear but themselves. And perhaps it is upon their discovery that they also realized that one cannot go back before the loss of innocence.
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This is certainly common with Americans here in the US. For some reason, I have always thought that this is because most people here cling to some idealized notion of independence, wherein the fear of "other people" is embedded deep within.
To live and to love the way they see fit always seems tro be connected with some imagined Utopia in the American phsyche. Perhaps the vastness of the land has something to do with it. The Whitmanesque/Thoreauesque desire to live apart from a "corrupting" society -- to "go back to nature", I suppose, is much easily imagined if one can get lost in some vastness.
I feel that this is what Ennis and Jack embodied in BBM. They had somehow found themselves by being lost in the vastness of what surrounded them. There was nothing to fear but themselves. And perhaps it is upon their discovery that they also realized that one cannot go back before the loss of innocence.
To be isolated from the rest of the world, to have create a world all your own that no one can touch, enter, invade, can also can be prison, no matter how beautiful it is, vast, or wide. And to be on Brokeback even after it's done its job, and brought them together, the inability to get beyond that was now impossible for each, but more so for Jack than for Ennis.
Jack tried but couldn't if Ennis was not able or willing to do so. In the final confrontation, when Jack said to Ennis "all we got is Brokeback Mountain, f#@king all, everything is built on that", was it fear in his voice when said that or acceptance of the fact Ennis wasn't going anywhere.
Jack knew long before Ennis even realized what they had, and what it meant, the fact that Brokeback bound them forever, and so he wanted his ashes scattered there, he knew it was the one place in all the world that Ennis would return to. But like all of Jack's plans, nothing came of it.
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The idea of the isolated paradise, the other Eden, does back to the original settlers, who saw what they were starting as differentr, new, a shining example to the old world. a city on a hill, a beacon - all that. It was reinforced at the time of independence, I think, and sonce that there's been an increasing sense that many of the promises haven't been realised and the dream is unachievable. Some of the reactions to this have been through trying to create tiny bits of the former glory - hence the desire to restore part of
the Appalachian wilderness along the Skyline Drive, even by removing what's growing there but isn't native and replacing it by the originals, to create an impression of an untouched area - something the same is true of the national parks, which are managed (some would say over-managed) partly to look as though they are untouched. (That all relates to the unspoiled natural world - things like shopping malls relate to the theme of abundance and theme parks to the idea of happiness and enjoyment.) It's interesting that BBM draws so heavily on the locations and colors of what appears to be unspoilt nature and the old agrarian past.
In the relationship of Jack and Ennis ( and this is part of the dissention before leaving the mountain) it also draws on the notion of the independent individual; Ennis I think always sees hmself in this way, which is why he can't accept loans or hel, until near the end where he allows Jack to hold him - I sometimes see that as an acknowledgement that in real life the individual can't isolate himself and live a fulfilled life.
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To be isolated from the rest of the world, to have create a world all your own that no one can touch, enter, invade, can also can be prison, no matter how beautiful it is, vast, or wide. And to be on Brokeback even after it's done its job, and brought them together, the inability to get beyond that was now impossible for each, but more so for Jack than for Ennis.
Jack tried but couldn't if Ennis was not able or willing to do so. In the final confrontation, when Jack said to Ennis "all we got is Brokeback Mountain, f#@king all, everything is built on that", was it fear in his voice when said that or acceptance of the fact Ennis wasn't going anywhere.
Jack knew long before Ennis even realized what they had, and what it meant, the fact that Brokeback bound them forever, and so he wanted his ashes scattered there, he knew it was the one place in all the world that Ennis would return to. But like all of Jack's plans, nothing came of it.
Very beautiful point, MG. I would only hasten to add that in Jack's comment during the confrontation scene, he was trying to say that they carried BBM inside of them, as much as BBM held them captive even after the summer of 63. It was what made their love flower, and it was also the source of that fear to love that inevitably broke them.
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The idea of the isolated paradise, the other Eden, does back to the original settlers, who saw what they were starting as differentr, new, a shining example to the old world. a city on a hill, a beacon - all that. It was reinforced at the time of independence, I think, and sonce that there's been an increasing sense that many of the promises haven't been realised and the dream is unachievable. Some of the reactions to this have been through trying to create tiny bits of the former glory - hence the desire to restore part of
the Appalachian wilderness along the Skyline Drive, even by removing what's growing there but isn't native and replacing it by the originals, to create an impression of an untouched area - something the same is true of the national parks, which are managed (some would say over-managed) partly to look as though they are untouched. (That all relates to the unspoiled natural world - things like shopping malls relate to the theme of abundance and theme parks to the idea of happiness and enjoyment.) It's interesting that BBM draws so heavily on the locations and colors of what appears to be unspoilt nature and the old agrarian past.
In the relationship of Jack and Ennis ( and this is part of the dissention before leaving the mountain) it also draws on the notion of the independent individual; Ennis I think always sees hmself in this way, which is why he can't accept loans or hel, until near the end where he allows Jack to hold him - I sometimes see that as an acknowledgement that in real life the individual can't isolate himself and live a fulfilled life.
Yes, in spite of the fear to live and love the way they saw fit, they couldn't stop loving each other. I think their need for each other surpassed the fear, even if the fear left them stunted. Et in Arcadia ego (in the Waugh sense), no?
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Well, finally overcame Fear of the SS, and went through it carefully, rather than casually. And will pass along what I saw.
Annie uses the technique of detail-realism to lure the reader into the story, including smells and sights. Very focused. The film went the
other way, with broad vistas and use of sound. But her realism, an ash-tray, the scent of urine, diapers, etc., does not cover the issue
mentioned here about circumcision. She went too long on that and so some theme or other was meant, and not just realistic detail.
And the film and SS are dead opposites, in presenting the love itself. The film front-loads the love, with idyllic scenery, SNIT, and more
healing of each other on the mountain. A really careful reading of the SS shows Annie, using the device of flashback, casually shocking the
reader with a sexual affair, some emotions, and then, at the end, dropping back for a hefty punch in the gut with the unexpected development
of a fuller, deeper look at the power of the love, which hadn't been really central, before.
But the film. even front-loading, still had enough in reserve, from Annie, (the shirts), to manage its own final punch.
A re-reading of the Dozy Embrace can really support the theme here. She describes it as non-sexual, and Ennis glad he wasn't facing Jack
more from fear of admitting Jack was his only real love, rather than some same-gender issue. And there are a few lines towards the end
really supporting the fear of love itself more than any mere gay issue.
The final line of Welshwitch's post was a combination of practical observation and raw beauty. Won't use it to support my theme. Her statement
stands on its own and shouldn't be borrowed.
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Manhattengirl--hey, dere. Jack realizing Ennis wasn't going anywhere---yeah, that's what shows up in that transformation scene, where
we see Jack's face dreamy with love, and then, later, switching to harshness, resentment, as he sees Ennis leaving for what turns out to be
the last time.
Dunno if it had to be that way. Myself, I don't see Ennis as permanently paralyzed. Maybe another confrontation, maybe life events---
growing older....we should never automatically rule out that Ennis, had Jack lived, could not have found a way to be more to Jack. He changed
when he went to the tent, SNIT, he changed when he agreed to a long-running affair, so, it's not an absolute that he could not change
yet again. Somehow. Once Jack applied full pressure, Ennis never really had the chance to respond, in his own way, gradually.
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Manhattengirl--hey, dere. Jack realizing Ennis wasn't going anywhere---yeah, that's what shows up in that transformation scene, where
we see Jack's face dreamy with love, and then, later, switching to harshness, resentment, as he sees Ennis leaving for what turns out to be
the last time.
Dunno if it had to be that way. Myself, I don't see Ennis as permanently paralyzed. Maybe another confrontation, maybe life events---
growing older....we should never automatically rule out that Ennis, had Jack lived, could not have found a way to be more to Jack. He changed
when he went to the tent, SNIT, he changed when he agreed to a long-running affair, so, it's not an absolute that he could not change
yet again. Somehow. Once Jack applied full pressure, Ennis never really had the chance to respond, in his own way, gradually.
Tony you're absolutely right on that point. My problem has always been with this story, was it a gradual change in Ennis or control of Jack, Jack stirred that deepest part of him. At every level of this relationship, Ennis lead, Jack followed. From the FNIT to the Reunion, especially the reunion, Jack would have been grateful for a handshake and a slap on the back to see his friend, but when Ennis kissed him, that set the stage for all that followed. Jack had no choice, so the bitterness in Jack as Ennis was steadfast in his position, for me this is understandable.
In the ss, when I read it, I can't help but think that Ennis stands back and watches the transformation of Jack, but doesn't necessarily attributed to him. This love he had for Jack was like a some separate entity, like the love for Jack was a third person in the relationship, we see it, but he just doesn't get it, until Jack's death when Ennis and his love merges.
Does any one understand?
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Well, finally overcame Fear of the SS, and went through it carefully, rather than casually. And will pass along what I saw.
Annie uses the technique of detail-realism to lure the reader into the story, including smells and sights. Very focused. The film went the
other way, with broad vistas and use of sound. But her realism, an ash-tray, the scent of urine, diapers, etc., does not cover the issue
mentioned here about circumcision. She went too long on that and so some theme or other was meant, and not just realistic detail.
And the film and SS are dead opposites, in presenting the love itself. The film front-loads the love, with idyllic scenery, SNIT, and more
healing of each other on the mountain. A really careful reading of the SS shows Annie, using the device of flashback, casually shocking the
reader with a sexual affair, some emotions, and then, at the end, dropping back for a hefty punch in the gut with the unexpected development
of a fuller, deeper look at the power of the love, which hadn't been really central, before.
But the film. even front-loading, still had enough in reserve, from Annie, (the shirts), to manage its own final punch.
A re-reading of the Dozy Embrace can really support the theme here. She describes it as non-sexual, and Ennis glad he wasn't facing Jack
more from fear of admitting Jack was his only real love, rather than some same-gender issue. And there are a few lines towards the end
really supporting the fear of love itself more than any mere gay issue.
The final line of Welshwitch's post was a combination of practical observation and raw beauty. Won't use it to support my theme. Her statement
stands on its own and shouldn't be borrowed.
I think one felt the fear of love more in the film than in the ss, no? In the story, the love was almost matter-of-fact. I certainly agree with you about the differences between the two.
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Tony you're absolutely right on that point. My problem has always been with this story, was it a gradual change in Ennis or control of Jack, Jack stirred that deepest part of him. At every level of this relationship, Ennis lead, Jack followed. From the FNIT to the Reunion, especially the reunion, Jack would have been grateful for a handshake and a slap on the back to see his friend, but when Ennis kissed him, that set the stage for all that followed. Jack had no choice, so the bitterness in Jack as Ennis was steadfast in his position, for me this is understandable.
In the ss, when I read it, I can't help but think that Ennis stands back and watches the transformation of Jack, but doesn't necessarily attributed to him. This love he had for Jack was like a some separate entity, like the love for Jack was a third person in the relationship, we see it, but he just doesn't get it, until Jack's death when Ennis and his love merges.
Does any one understand?
I think I do. It certainly ties with part of what I said in the above post: that Ennis "stands back", as you say it. You do feel that up until the last, it felt like some separate organism, and that it was rather more of "disinterest" than fear of love. Is this correct?
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Very beautiful topic ;) :ghug: :f) :c)
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Manhattengirl, your mention of the reunion scene grabbed my attention, and am beginning to think its contents have not been fairly
explored. It doesn't fit the standard theory of Ennis as repressed and unable to change. In fact, the scene shows ENNIS breaking EVERY
rule of caution and grabbing Jack, almost publicly, and kissing him, in town, not on the mountain. Jack responds almost with anger, and gives
a look like---you finally admit it?---and shoves him back to kiss just as hard and admit his own love. Look at the brief reaction on Jack's face.
So---Ennis can't change? Ennis is repressed, completely? I think we have seen Ennis hijacked to fit convenient theories sympathetic to
the need for real change in a homophobic culture. His character is not so cardboard--there is more to him. He should not be used to fulfill
agendas, however decent and good those agendas are.
By the way, in the SS, his reference to "this thing" that comes over them and could get them killed, turns out not to be the sex. He was
referring to the reunion scene, explicitly, as an example of where they could lose control of their emotions in public. It's there, in the SS.
Tpe, yeah, like you, I see Ennis carrying his love separately, having internalized it. Again, in the SS, there is support that in the Dozy Embrace,
he was glad he wasn't facing Jack, because he was afraid of the inside treasured love in direct contact with the physically present beloved.
After studying things more closely, lately, am embarrassed at some of my previous posts, and yet, am more certain than ever of a few of
my conclusions. I hope the minority opinions so many of us have are never lost. I see there are a lot of guests that visit this forum, and
I hope they never feel uneasy at joining formally, because all issues are settled and their views would be ignored. It isn't so....but I do hope
the tolerance for minority opinions never erodes.
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Hi, Audrey Twist---was typing my post the same time you were. Thanks for saying hello. There's some disorganization to this thread
owing to the clumsy start I made, but the others have salvaged it. Hope your opinion stays the same, and maybe you'll add to the others, as
there's plenty of leeway for any observations.
Manhattengirl-more clumsiness from me. The last post I made went off on Ennis' being used for agendas. You've always kept an open mind
and yet always said what you had to say. Wasn't referring to you. It was your post that reminded me of that scene, and off I went.
Sorry to all. Am in a snit (uncapitalized), as Heath is doing his next film mostly in Vancouver and that means.....Lance gets ALL the good
luck. Not fair!!!! But, uh....we all better be nice to him if we're going to get any details. I will start. Lance, you are the perfect Brokie,
radiating charm, good looks, and intelligence, etc., etc., etc. And do you have an, uh----telephoto lens for your camera?
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Subtle, Tony, very subtle.
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Doesn't hurt to try.
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[...]
Sorry to all. Am in a snit (uncapitalized), as Heath is doing his next film mostly in Vancouver and that means.....Lance gets ALL the good
luck. Not fair!!!! But, uh....we all better be nice to him if we're going to get any details. I will start. Lance, you are the perfect Brokie,
radiating charm, good looks, and intelligence, etc., etc., etc. And do you have an, uh----telephoto lens for your camera?
:8 :8 :8 You are such a charmer, Tony. Jack fr@#$ing Twist has nothing on YOU!
No, I don't have telephoto lenses but if you are buying me a pair, I'd appreciate it and promise to put them to good use. O0 :8 :8
No, seriously, I am totally against paparazzi not even friendly fans. Celebrities are people, too, and they deserve their privacy to do their best work.
I am happy and content with my DVD of Heath in the role that I love best of all - Ennis Del Mar. When I get a chance to meet him in person, like those truly lucky few who met Ang Lee in NYC, I will be content with an autograph of the DVD and book. Well, a couple photos with my favorite sexiest cowboy wouldn't hurt either. :*( :c)
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Manhattengirl, your mention of the reunion scene grabbed my attention, and am beginning to think its contents have not been fairly
explored. It doesn't fit the standard theory of Ennis as repressed and unable to change. In fact, the scene shows ENNIS breaking EVERY
rule of caution and grabbing Jack, almost publicly, and kissing him, in town, not on the mountain. Jack responds almost with anger, and gives
a look like---you finally admit it?---and shoves him back to kiss just as hard and admit his own love. Look at the brief reaction on Jack's face.So---Ennis can't change? Ennis is repressed, completely? I think we have seen Ennis hijacked to fit convenient theories sympathetic to
the need for real change in a homophobic culture. His character is not so cardboard--there is more to him. He should not be used to fulfill
agendas, however decent and good those agendas are.
By the way, in the SS, his reference to "this thing" that comes over them and could get them killed, turns out not to be the sex. He was
referring to the reunion scene, explicitly, as an example of where they could lose control of their emotions in public. It's there, in the SS.
Tpe, yeah, like you, I see Ennis carrying his love separately, having internalized it. Again, in the SS, there is support that in the Dozy Embrace,
he was glad he wasn't facing Jack, because he was afraid of the inside treasured love in direct contact with the physically present beloved.
After studying things more closely, lately, am embarrassed at some of my previous posts, and yet, am more certain than ever of a few of
my conclusions. I hope the minority opinions so many of us have are never lost. I see there are a lot of guests that visit this forum, and
I hope they never feel uneasy at joining formally, because all issues are settled and their views would be ignored. It isn't so....but I do hope
the tolerance for minority opinions never erodes.
Ennis, Jack, and the "thing". Tony, you wrote so beautifully of how these two men came to be who they are, now what made that "thing" possible between them? The "thing" for me wasn't sex but more about the love, or am I wrong. Ennis was fill with that the "thing" when his had Jack in his arms again, Jack who lived for the "thing" returned again and again all those years.
"When that thing comes over us again, at the wrong place, the wrong time, we're dead". How terrible it is to be in fear of giving a look, a touch, a smile to your lover, and think it could cause your death. Or was it the love itself?
What was that fight on Brokeback then? And what was the fear? Tony, help me to understand.
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Hi, back from lurking in a corner, but was catching up on this great thread and I'm totally riveted to all the very well thought out interesting posts for sure. Wow, great topic Tony. I'm amazed that after all this time , this film classic brings forth such passion from my fellow Brokies. I'm learning so much here.
I feel it was to Ennis, also a question of : How much of himself was he willing to forego, to give up for this "thing" so wonderful and new to him. Yet consumed so much of inner self. And I don't feel it was anything Jack did in particular that prompted Ennis to be down on his knees, physically sick and crying ,...other than introduce Ennis to a part of himself that both frightened him yet somehow fit and completed him as a person.
I also don't believe that the realization of what had happened hit him out of blue like a bolt of lightening either. From the moment Jack informed him that the party on BBM was over, and tyhat Aguirre was pulling the plug, Reality smacks Ennis in the face, hard. He has found finally a necesseary freedom on BB, and now it's being snatched away like a starving man's plate of food., and for no good reason that he could see. He starts to prepare himself for the inevidible. It's so upsetting, he can't even bring himself to help Jack dismantle the camp, too final for the moment.
Jack, as usaul tries to be the strong one for Ennis's sake, but he is also very disappointed in the abrupt ending to thier little "Eden" Ennis turns cold and angry towards Jack when Jack offers him the loan. Jack knows damn well it's not a matter of the money.. that Ennis's anger is targeted at Aguirre's decision to pull the plug upsetting the routine that both he and Ennis had come to love. Ennis disappears up onto the hill to contemplate the end of his life with the one he loved and get on with his promised nupituals to Alma. Quite a switch, since I feel he now knows Jack, and life with him, better than he knows his future wife in many ways!!
He tries to harden his heart and stay quiet about it, , but it turns to anger instead, especially when Jack, all knowing, figuring misery needs no company, goes to him and tries to allieviate some the disappointment but innocently delivers the final blow to a seething Ennis. ( "It's time to get going cowboy"). Ennis was not trying to hear this, did'nt want his misery expressed out loud, his punch, symbolic of that and all that lay ahead for him and all he was leaving behind, or has to attempt to leave it behind.
Jack had him heart and soul. without Jack , love is all strange again. At this point, he realizes his father was all wrong. That homosexuals were not monsters and not fit to live amongst "normal " societyfolks. Jack was his "Earl" and he was sweet, kind, and loving among his many attributes.
The way Earl felt for Rich and v/v was happening to him with Jack on BBM. An isolated, perfect stage set for them to establish their love. Befitting of the natural progress that was allowed to take place. I think it's came down partly as a matter of control. or loss of it for Ennis ,
I feel he enventually came to terms with the feelings he had for Jack, his undeniable need for him overcame any denial in that sense, but it seems to me to come from way back, Back when homophobic fear. through actions and words indoctrinated into his mental shaping and molding. Therefore we must look at these two men as indiviuals first, their make ups and what contributed to them being the way they are in personality.
Both had harsh, strict upbrings, Ennis loosing his parents at such a young age., and Jack coming up on isolated LF with an unloving, abusive father. When they got together, they brought with them, all the baggage of past life experiences. Jack, headstrong and sensitive, there, below the surface , his own fear., ( fear of rejection) folded his cards when the stakes got too high for Ennis, before his game was finished, only to try at winning again and again. He no doubt returned from trips, ( The divorce scene) frustrated and hurt, but always returned, ready to lay his heart on the line again.
Once in the game the Fear of Love turned them every which way but loose. Fear of rejection, shame and miscommnication ruled their love. More like little or no communication really. Jack never verbally heard " I love you" from Ennis, only felt and assummed it. and Ennis never heard it from Jack either. The "why" and "why not" of this matter is another thread, but Jack eventually went from "when do I show up to WHY should I show up" , Randall and Mexico standing in for what he really needed. Finally with no more chips in front of him, all he's left with is a wing and a prayer with alot of hope on the side.
In the meantime Ennis is having major problems even getting Totally in the game itself. He is a wounded soul, part of him feeling his love for Jack is wrong, the other part never feeling anything so right. I don't feel they had a fear of love, but a fear of expressing it fully and freely once they came down from the mountain. The shirt Jack stole was symbolic of every milestone they crossed up on Brokeback. Ennis , not having many, this one he wearing every time Ennis took a major step forward to learning to love Jack.
I wonder sometimes as the years went by and Jack visited LF, did he go to the shirts in remembrance of happier times, or did he find it too painful to look at them hanging there instead of the real thing (Ennis) standing there with him. I agree with Jackster in his post above who said in so many words that when Ennis found the shirts ,the light bilb came on in his head finally and he had to say, " Damn I really loved you Jack" Death could no longer be proud, Jack had the last say after all and Ennis damn well knew it then.
I find it sappy, but I like to believe had Jack lived and had an established sweet life with Ennis by some miracle, that Jack would, after many years would show Ennis the shirts, say on their 50th anniversay year or another special occasion, ie: birthday etc... just as he had saved them, his "embracing" Ennis, for better and for worse. THIS would have surprised Ennis in a sweet ,thoughtful way, Jack's way, and melted Ennis heart like nobody's business, but that's a fanfic..lol Sorry, long post, but this thread being worthy of the passion...well I plead guilty. My 2 cents ..or 10 cents, whatever. :t) Thanks.
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Ennis, Jack, and the "thing". Tony, you wrote so beautifully of how these two men came to be who they are, now what made that "thing" possible between them? The "thing" for me wasn't sex but more about the love, or am I wrong. Ennis was fill with that the "thing" when his had Jack in his arms again, Jack who lived for the "thing" returned again and again all those years.
"When that thing comes over us again, at the wrong place, the wrong time, we're dead". How terrible it is to be in fear of giving a look, a touch, a smile to your lover, and think it could cause your death. Or was it the love itself?
What was that fight on Brokeback then? And what was the fear? Tony, help me to understand.
Is it fear of love, or is it fear of SHOWING love?
The question reminds me the haunting simple lines from the trailer...
It was a friendship that became a secret.
There are lies we have to tell.
There are truths we can't deny.
When faced with these haunting lines in his future,
Ennis chose to hide behind his fortress,
Jack wants to pursue his sweet life.
I was Ennis...
To have courage is not to have no fear...
Courage is to have fear, but live life anyway...
Thanks for all the wonderful insights in this topic, Tony, MG, tpe, ... everyone :ghug:<^( :^^)
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I feel it was not a fear of love, but a fear of committment of love. Ennis was not one to change much about his routines or mindsets and Jack was asking that he change both. I think he not only hadn't the courage or inclination to defy society and co-habitate with Jack.
Jack was'nt talking about "playing house" in which case, a whole series of challenges and changes had to take place first, physically, mentally, and socially. Ennis would face some major changes that he nor Jack were ready for. Ennis is a very private "loner" type, at his basic core.
He figures that Jack, being Jack could not live in isolation as he is very comfortable living. Eventually Jack would want friends, aquaintances etc... and that involves people knowing the nature of their relationship!
This is just one of Ennis fears, let alone him mentally picturing him and Jack always living with the fear of a posse coming to hang them both from the nearest tree on the plains. To him Jack's dream is a nightmare to Ennis. He just wasn't ready for it and would'nt be any time soon. Again, don't feel thay feared love itself, but every thing that a dare to society would entail. Ennis is convinced that one or the other would "slip up" and they'd be killed or seriously injured.
Whispers and rumours, questions and social ties would force the issues .... BUT... having said that, in the end, Ennis without a doubt had to answer an important question of himself. Had he had it to do all over again, knowing if had he been with Jack would he still be alive? Was all the fears worth loosing Jack over?
If, and it's a huge if, someone could get him to talk, and present him with the question Jack alive ? or fear of the tireiron? , knowing what he knows now if it meant having Jack back, alive and well,,, ? forget about it. all the above thinking would be for nil.
I think he he would tell them a good sawed off shot gun and a couple mean doberman guard dogs might do the trick. Every one has a right to self-defense in America. Even "queers." , and from what I saw Ennis aint a bad shot. Blame it on 1963 rural politics and homophobes in that time....and now. Sadly,he'd learned a lesson a little too late....MHO.
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These last posts have been so powerful, am having great difficulty in my reactions to them. They are going to the core of this great love story
each, in different ways.
The theme here has been an effort to go past the basic challenges in the love between Ennis and Jack (a homophobic mind-set) to the
larger, more universal challenges in any great love, one of which is the fear of love, itself, regardless of underlying issues. And in all great loves,
that fear is most often---are you loved as much, in return? That is the tension in all historic loves throughout the ages. Yet in going there,
that seems to diminish the stage on which the love is played out. And that shouldn't be so. Who gives a damn about the bloody, evil feuds
and hates on which are built the loves in Romeo and Juliet, and West Side Story? They fade against the love itself. And yet, we do not want
to give ground on the stage here, homophobia, because it is alive, threatening. Have tried to say, we don't have to give ground on the one,
to explore the other.
Manhattengirl, I really, really believe, in BBM, that universal theme is there. I can't answer your question, but can point to the haunting
challenge of surrendering yourself to the beloved, and the fear of losing your identity---who you are. And point out again, that Annie has
the Dozy Embrace non-sexual, and a conflict between Ennis' internalized ideal of his love for Jack, and the reality of Jack himself, whom he
could not face, but must cling to, non-sexually, from behind. Two loves- the ideal, inside, and the real, in his arms.
Then there are Aintfoolin's posts. It seems to me that all of her posts on other threads were a gradual organization of a full and complete
accounting, finally rendered....here. Other than a lady I ran into in another forum, I consider Aintfoolin the main expert on Ennis and her
last 2 posts were rich with understanding. She doesn't see the fear of love, the universal theme, as I do, but has her own territory, fear of
ACCEPTING love. And, Manhattengirl, please forgive me, but in AF's posts lay many answers to your question. As usual, amidst all the
expert stuff, she throws in the value of a shotgun and a few guard dogs to settle all of it. Can't argue with that.
Again, am having trouble with these posts and may not fully get my mind in gear, for they are past what I have seen before.
Much love--Tony.
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To be isolated from the rest of the world, to have create a world all your own that no one can touch, enter, invade, can also can be prison, no matter how beautiful it is, vast, or wide. And to be on Brokeback even after it's done its job, and brought them together, the inability to get beyond that was now impossible for each, but more so for Jack than for Ennis.
Jack tried but couldn't if Ennis was not able or willing to do so. In the final confrontation, when Jack said to Ennis "all we got is Brokeback Mountain, f#@king all, everything is built on that", was it fear in his voice when said that or acceptance of the fact Ennis wasn't going anywhere.
Jack knew long before Ennis even realized what they had, and what it meant, the fact that Brokeback bound them forever, and so he wanted his ashes scattered there, he knew it was the one place in all the world that Ennis would return to. But like all of Jack's plans, nothing came of it.
So beautiful post MG!!! :\'( And very hearbreaking and nice topic dear Tony!!!
I can not write here 'cause my english :-\\ but I've read the whole thread and I'm stunned!!! This is amazing!!
Deep and very touching posts!!! I agree 100% with all of you!!
Tpe, Lance, Tony, MG, AF, WW, Lamusica, Ali, CSC, LJN, Jackster.....THANK OF ALL YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR BEAUTIFUL THOUGHTS!!! YOU'RE AMAZING!!! ^f^ ^f^ ^f^
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These last posts have been so powerful, am having great difficulty in my reactions to them. They are going to the core of this great love story
each, in different ways.
The theme here has been an effort to go past the basic challenges in the love between Ennis and Jack (a homophobic mind-set) to the
larger, more universal challenges in any great love, one of which is the fear of love, itself, regardless of underlying issues. And in all great loves,
that fear is most often---are you loved as much, in return? That is the tension in all historic loves throughout the ages. Yet in going there,
that seems to diminish the stage on which the love is played out. And that shouldn't be so. Who gives a damn about the bloody, evil feuds
and hates on which are built the loves in Romeo and Juliet, and West Side Story? They fade against the love itself. And yet, we do not want
to give ground on the stage here, homophobia, because it is alive, threatening. Have tried to say, we don't have to give ground on the one,
to explore the other.
Manhattengirl, I really, really believe, in BBM, that universal theme is there. I can't answer your question, but can point to the haunting
challenge of surrendering yourself to the beloved, and the fear of losing your identity---who you are. And point out again, that Annie has
the Dozy Embrace non-sexual, and a conflict between Ennis' internalized ideal of his love for Jack, and the reality of Jack himself, whom he
could not face, but must cling to, non-sexually, from behind. Two loves- the ideal, inside, and the real, in his arms. Then there are Aintfoolin's posts. It seems to me that all of her posts on other threads were a gradual organization of a full and complete
accounting, finally rendered....here. Other than a lady I ran into in another forum, I consider Aintfoolin the main expert on Ennis and her
last 2 posts were rich with understanding. She doesn't see the fear of love, the universal theme, as I do, but has her own territory, fear of
ACCEPTING love. And, Manhattengirl, please forgive me, but in AF's posts lay many answers to your question. As usual, amidst all the
expert stuff, she throws in the value of a shotgun and a few guard dogs to settle all of it. Can't argue with that.
Again, am having trouble with these posts and may not fully get my mind in gear, for they are past what I have seen before.
Much love--Tony.
Tony, you can make me really nuts sometimes, you answered my question. I've always wanted to know what you think, I know my questions can be simplistic, but your ideas and thoughts are so interesting to me.
Just like what you wrote in the above, let me know what you think. How you feel. Like you wrote about the dozy embrace, even though this was Jack's pov, not Ennis's, when he said "let be, let be", do you think Jack himself understood Ennis, and what he was going through. For me, I've always thought Jack knew Ennis better than Ennis knew himself. Because all those years Jack tried to convince Ennis what they had was real, while Ennis holding back, never was sure, but could never walk away from what they had, it was what he lived for.
As for the dozy embrace, this was Jack's moment true. Who's to say what Ennis was feeling. Ennis hummed a lullaby his mother sang to him, rocked him gently. I've thought it as a sign of the one unconditional moment of love Ennis showed to Jack. Ennis was really who he was, and what he wanted to be with Jack. All the love that may have escaped him all his life he had at that moment. It was an unprovoked action of love Ennis showed Jack. So it's there, the love.
I don't know if this make sense.
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Manhattengirl, not to worry, I drive myself nuts, too.
Anyhoo....I may have another way of expressing the start of this thread. IF everyone concedes that the love of the two men for each
other is co-equal to the love between a man and a woman........then many of the BASIC issues of love, any love, must be there in BBM.
Homophobia is central to the story and can never be whittled out of it, and everyone is right to continue an emphasis there. But unless
WE are homophobic, then we must be able to tackle some of the other generic issues that would occur with Ennis and Jack and fear of
love is one of them. If we proclaim equality, then we must follow up, by looking at their love also with reference to universal themes.
We can do both here, without undermining either. They may even be intertwined.
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Tony, you can make me really nuts sometimes, you answered my question. I've always wanted to know what you think, I know my questions can be simplistic, but your ideas and thoughts are so interesting to me.
Just like what you wrote in the above, let me know what you think. How you feel. Like you wrote about the dozy embrace, even though this was Jack's pov, not Ennis's, when he said "let be, let be", do you think Jack himself understood Ennis, and what he was going through. For me, I've always thought Jack knew Ennis better than Ennis knew himself. Because all those years Jack tried to convince Ennis what they had was real, while Ennis holding back, never was sure, but could never walk away from what they had, it was what he lived for.
As for the dozy embrace, this was Jack's moment true. Who's to say what Ennis was feeling. Ennis hummed a lullaby his mother sang to him, rocked him gently. I've thought it as a sign of the one unconditional moment of love Ennis showed to Jack. Ennis was really who he was, and what he wanted to be with Jack. All the love that may have escaped him all his life he had at that moment. It was an unprovoked action of love Ennis showed Jack. So it's there, the love.
I don't know if this make sense.
MG,
I think it makes perfect sense. The dozy embrace was seen from Jack's pov in flashback, But I feel it goes to the heart of how Jack knows Ennis can say so much with so little.
He indeed understands Ennis this much. Jack knows this is not the same Ennis he met at Aguirre's trailer that day in Signal. He knows it's an "evolved" Ennis, an enlightened Ennis. something has changed him. It belies the past, and defines the present, and in Jack's mind perhaps the future at that moment.
The unspoken mutual understanding between just the two of them that the love was there.True it was non-sexual in it's nature , but it's an unprovoked expression of pure love for Jack. Jack's knows this, and "lets it be" No words are needed here, just to bask in the glory of that moment was enough. the lullaby going to the "comfort zone factor" of Ennis's love for Jack. Jack is "comforting " to Ennis and v/v so much so that the lullaby puts their love up on the same "level "of pure devotion his mother had for him and v/v. I feel it's what Ennis was trying "equate" to Jack.
Put in proper perspective, Jack was at that moment, feeling the love, in contrast to the present situation he was in during the confrontation scene. I see no better example of what goes to Tony's "Fear of Love concept and "Do you love me enough?" than the confrontation scene. Jack is asking : Where is THAT dozy embrace Ennis that I know and love so well?
Alot of water has flowed under that bridge and the love is now in danger of being washed away with it. Jack now sees that Ennis has compartmentalized the reality of Brokeback to the the reality of real life aside from it. He sees them merged as one on a continuous journey, Ennis sees it as two seperate realities and has different coping mechanisms for both Therein lies the problem I see Jack simply trying to figure where he now fits into Ennis's world at this point.
It's Jack's all or nothing , sh-t or get off the pot attitude, vs Ennis's , confusing If, ands, or buts imo. I don't feel Ennis was totally playing Jack, but I don't think he was being totally honest either, I feel Ennis was trying to learn how to accept this much unconditional love from Jack and still maintain a sense of who he is or how he sees himself and if he accepts it fully he is afraid of what he may have to give up in return. It' SO deep. Thanks.
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Sorry MG, Iscrewed up somewhere and my post is with your quote. Please forgive thanks.
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Manhattengirl, not to worry, I drive myself nuts, too.
Anyhoo....I may have another way of expressing the start of this thread. IF everyone concedes that the love of the two men for each
other is co-equal to the love between a man and a woman........then many of the BASIC issues of love, any love, must be there in BBM.
Homophobia is central to the story and can never be whittled out of it, and everyone is right to continue an emphasis there. But unless
WE are homophobic, then we must be able to tackle some of the other generic issues that would occur with Ennis and Jack and fear of
love is one of them. If we proclaim equality, then we must follow up, by looking at their love also with reference to universal themes.
We can do both here, without undermining either. They may even be intertwined.
Tony-I feel less afraid of writing what I see, what I feel. Thanks.
Aintfoolin-thanks, you've pull it together for me. I've learned so much from your posts, like with Tony, you've always have me thinking at another level, (and pulling me back from the edge), thanks again.
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Will start this post by saying, the first person to have PBS was Ennis Del Mar, and that occurred in the SS.
Recently, read the SS critically, rather than casually, and you always have to be careful, there. We have to try to re-create the first
time. where we don't know the story or the ending. But if you do that, as best as you can, you see what Annie does---to Ennis and, of
course, to the reader. As far as her intentions, it is annoying to any author, but their work does stand separate from them, once finished,
and contains their subconscious ideas mingled with their original plan. The final text, then, is independent of the author.
Borrowing from Jackster, then, would like to give this outline of the SS, and how it is relevant here:
Stage one- Annie starts off with her usual theme of what it was really like, in the West, the poverty and the drabness of life set
against the raw beauty of nature. The two lead characters are of interest only as amiable losers with no future.
Stage two- Having gained the reader's interest by her style and some insight into two guys named Ennis and Jack, she shows empathy
for males and their development of friendship--also an interesting theme, and she could have left the story there.
Stage three- With little warning, she suddenly has them tumble into sex and that alters the nature of the SS, leaving the reader
somewhat shaken by the sudden transition and her casual development of the sex, with no judgment either way, right
or wrong.
Stage four-Although she has developed a sexual affair and friendship, she leaves intense love pretty much to the side, leaving the
reader mired in the ongoing development of, basically, an atypical relationship, of interest at that level.
Stage five-She delivers the knock-out punch at the end, transcending the mundane, even, by then, ordinary affair with--issues, and
by means of flashback scenes, and the device of the shirts moves to the unexpected- an immortal love story.
This may try the patience of anyone reading this, as it may seem as if nothing new is shown here, but, in fact, Annie gave no real warning,
to an original reader, that she was going to go past a powerful affair into the greatest love a human being could know. We've lost that because
we know the ending, and have also seen the film. But that was her quantum leap, at the end. Curiously, it would seem she hit both the
reader AND her surviving character, for she leaves him in something past PBS, frequently in a fevered state and overwhelmed with HIS own
love story.
What's relevant here is that she did give clues, earlier on, and we missed them, so it should be easier to understand how Ennis and Jack
did not do well with the clues they were given of the depth of the other's love. We want to bat them on the head and get them to communicate
better, but if you deconstruct the SS, the reader does not fully understand, until the end.
Finally, no one knew death was coming, and so there was no sense of urgency for Ennis and Jack to get things right--things were limping
along, there would always be the next fishing trip....there was time.
Jack was the first to see time running out, and he challenged Ennis, finally. I will always believe Ennis took the challenge seriously, and
would gradually have given in.
Simplistic post, but it goes to my point that neither knew the full intensity of the others love, and could never be sure, absolutely sure, that
they were loved as deeply in return. And that is a universal theme, fear of love, exposing yourself to danger from the beloved, and loss of
control of your way of life, whatever that is, when you finally commit.
When it was over, it was too late, and Annie left Ennis in fevered dreams, soaked with urine and sweat, the first victim of PBS, which I
will now be bold enough to define as---an enduring shock that we have it in us to love a great love, not a temporary convenience, but one
that is immortal.
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"Hippies, squids, homos, whores--HIT THE DOOR!" If Brokies can handle the intensity of FNIT then I think you can handle the cheerful,
raunchy way the waitress at our neighborhood tavern, gave out last call, closing time. And I would like to go back to those days to give an
example where fear of love was well justified and the risk inherent in investing in love could be extreme. (Squid, is a local term for sailors).
There were two taverns down the street from the Norfolk Naval Base that became legendary for raucous fun, wild doings, and integration
of gays and straights. I was, myself, a part of that, because the historic confrontation came when that lead waitress came over to tell one
of the gals sitting with me, she was barred---for being openly gay. I said-she goes---I go. Am not much of anything now, but in those days,
I was extemely popular---the owner of the bar backed down, and gay became..OK.
The explosions began. Gay women showed up, and the lonely sailors poured in to be around women...any women (we have 40,000 extra
males in Norfolk). The rednecks/hippies were tolerant already. The straight women were generally...sluts, and found liberation in the wildness
of that gals gay female friends showing up. Anita Bryant became the bete noire and it was---integrated heaven-85% straight, 15% gay, and
sparks flew. Anyone who said anything against gay got cold-shouldered or even tossed out the door.
Same at the tavern next door, but there unravelled a tragedy that still haunts me. Luke and Gary (names changed). Luke, a tall, lanky
lieutenant and his sidekick, Gary, the most virile male I had ever seen, muscular, brooding, quiet. They were inseparable and there every night,
shooting pool. Their wives there, too. Gary's wife a hot, sexy creature; Luke's wife a quiet lady, dark circles under her eyes, always trying
to be happy, but she only felt safe with me. And yet---I didn't get it. The friendship was illegal (fraternization of an officer and seaman), but
nothing seemed astray.
Until the fight between Luke and Gary. I missed that, was up at my bar the next night and everybody said it was huge trouble. Gary was
on crutches in this bar, off to himself and everybody told me of the fight. Which didn't make sense. Gary could have broken Luke in two,
yet he held his punches and Luke beat the crap out of him.
Gary never liked me and I had thought it was because I was rumored to be....metro-sexual. Still, he came to me and asked would I go with
him next door to see Luke, so he could talk to him. Did, and it was awful. Luke brushed him off. Gary asked me to drive him home to Navy
housing, and I did.
Got there, and he sat in the car and broke down in convulsive sobs---"I...loved him...." It had been a ship affair. 6 months at sea, those
things could happen, on the sly. Gary was overwhelmed by Luke's rank, treating him as a human being, being his tribal male friend--he
worshipped Luke. Who used him for companionship of the regular male type, and also for.....eventually, sexual relief. Gary was so in love
with Luke, it was routine, giving his friend head. Hell, wasn't queer---they both had wives. It was friendship. Right?
Like Jack Twist- Gary wanted... more. Might of been being held. Maybe kissing. I don't know. All I know is in the car that night, Gary
said he could only tell me, because I was a...queer. I asked him couldn't he--find another guy? "I ain't QUEER! I Loved Luke--that's why
I did it for him, on the ship.."
Never saw him again. He had loved Luke so much, he had let Luke win the fight, and it was brutal. Saw Luke. Went to his nice suburban
home, saw his two kids, and got one of the puppies from their dog's litter. No mention of Gary.
Fear of love can be justified. Those two had an affair for five years and their friendship, itself was considered an innocent male love,
much respected in the two bars. But one was discardable, when he wanted more. To the point then, with Ennis and Jack, and all the love
shown between them, there probably always was some measure of fearing to reveal just how much you loved, for it may be threatening
to the other partner, and you may lose them by your very needs. Push came to shove, and Luke ended it with Gary, in a brutal fight.
I believe Ennis and Jack could survive any fight, but I still see in them the fear of loving too much and the fear of not being loved as much
in return. Gary and Luke were real. And Gary disintegrated, in my car that night, knowing that he had taken the risk, and wasn't loved
as he had thought. All Luke wanted was a close friend, and a safe relief-giver, on long cruises. and for that, Gary risked his sanity, his
sense of being a man, and his very identity. Fear of love, sometimes, is with just cause.
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***
Fear of love can be justified. Those two had an affair for five years and their friendship, itself was considered an innocent male love,
much respected in the two bars. But one was discardable, when he wanted more. To the point then, with Ennis and Jack, and all the love
shown between them, there probably always was some measure of fearing to reveal just how much you loved, for it may be threatening
to the other partner, and you may lose them by your very needs. Push came to shove, and Luke ended it with Gary, in a brutal fight.
I believe Ennis and Jack could survive any fight, but I still see in them the fear of loving too much and the fear of not being loved as much
in return. Gary and Luke were real. And Gary disintegrated, in my car that night, knowing that he had taken the risk, and wasn't loved
as he had thought. All Luke wanted was a close friend, and a safe relief-giver, on long cruises. and for that, Gary risked his sanity, his
sense of being a man, and his very identity. Fear of love, sometimes, is with just cause.
Rejection or fear of rejection is one of the most common reasons why people fear to love. I guess this is why the rejection scene after the divorce really hits home with a lot of us.
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I've just been reading this thread, and what a wonderful discussion is going on here. It seems to be not about Ennis and Jack but about the universal roadblocks so many of us encounter in our search for love. Good job friends, keep up the discussion. O0
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Thanks, Tony. I wonder how many different Brokeback Mountain stories are out there.
Different variations, different ending, but the same central tragic theme. Love that is constant, but denied. Gary is Ennis, not Jack. He loved only one man. He couldn't love any other. He was also Jack, to be brave and honest. Your stories always break me into tears. I will never feel well again until this story leaves my mind. :( I hope Gary found peace else where, with another man, with his wife and family. It is better to love without passion, than to lose everything for the sake of passion alone without love. I think that is why so many bisexual men married and have family, even though they know their passionate love is with another man. You always bring the question right to heart, Tony. Fear of love... indeed.
[...]
Got there, and he sat in the car and broke down in convulsive sobs---"I...loved him...." It had been a ship affair. 6 months at sea, those
things could happen, on the sly. Gary was overwhelmed by Luke's rank, treating him as a human being, being his tribal male friend--he
worshipped Luke. Who used him for companionship of the regular male type, and also for.....eventually, sexual relief. Gary was so in love
with Luke, it was routine, giving his friend head. Hell, wasn't queer---they both had wives. It was friendship. Right?
Like Jack Twist- Gary wanted... more. Might of been being held. Maybe kissing. I don't know. All I know is in the car that night, Gary
said he could only tell me, because I was a...queer. I asked him couldn't he--find another guy? "I ain't QUEER! I Loved Luke--that's why
I did it for him, on the ship.."
Never saw him again. He had loved Luke so much, he had let Luke win the fight, and it was brutal. Saw Luke. Went to his nice suburban
home, saw his two kids, and got one of the puppies from their dog's litter. No mention of Gary.
Fear of love can be justified. Those two had an affair for five years and their friendship, itself was considered an innocent male love,
much respected in the two bars. But one was discardable, when he wanted more. To the point then, with Ennis and Jack, and all the love
shown between them, there probably always was some measure of fearing to reveal just how much you loved, for it may be threatening
to the other partner, and you may lose them by your very needs. Push came to shove, and Luke ended it with Gary, in a brutal fight.
I believe Ennis and Jack could survive any fight, but I still see in them the fear of loving too much and the fear of not being loved as much
in return. Gary and Luke were real. And Gary disintegrated, in my car that night, knowing that he had taken the risk, and wasn't loved
as he had thought. All Luke wanted was a close friend, and a safe relief-giver, on long cruises. and for that, Gary risked his sanity, his
sense of being a man, and his very identity. Fear of love, sometimes, is with just cause.
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Thanks, Tony. I wonder how many different Brokeback Mountain stories are out there.
Different variations, different ending, but the same central tragic theme. Love that is constant, but denied. Gary is Ennis, not Jack. He loved only one man. He couldn't love any other. He was also Jack, to be brave and honest. Your stories always break me into tears. I will never feel well again until this story leaves my mind. :( I hope Gary found peace else where, with another man, with his wife and family. It is better to love without passion, than to lose everything for the sake of passion alone without love. I think that is why so many bisexual men married and have family, even though they know their passionate love is with another man. You always bring the question right to heart, Tony. Fear of love... indeed.
Lancecowboy2007, as an older man I have come to understand that many men, bi-sex men, take a road that in their later years they look back on with regret. Society, conditioning, their own personal fears deny them what they really struggle for in life. As a gay man, in the past I have made light of them, but now I understand what they have had to deal with all their lives. Times change and their conditions may change (ie divorce or lose of their mate) and at last they are able to let go and release their real nature. What a relief that must be for them even if it is in the autumn of their years. I applaud any personwho continues to struggle to understand and come to terms with their nature. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, forgive me.
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Gary and Luke, the seaman and the lieutenant, power and how it plays out in situations. Gary was a victim of it. Luke had a the cards, Gary was left short, played, then played out. It's brutal, but this happens all the time. Gary couldn't see past his love, to see how vunderable he really was. Luke, no matter how close they were didn't see him as peer, equal, and that was Gary mistake.
Ennis and Jack was equal in status, no pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. That was not the case with Gary and Luke. Luke had the power and used it. Gary couldn't get past his love to see it, so the tragedy of love. Like aintfoolin said it was the commitment of love, (aintfoolin, I hope I'm correct), stood between Ennis and Jack, that's the difference.
I hope I'm making sense.
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Lancecowboy2007, as an older man I have come to understand that many men, bi-sex men, take a road that in their later years they look back on with regret. Society, conditioning, their own personal fears deny them what they really struggle for in life. As a gay man, in the past I have made light of them, but now I understand what they have had to deal with all their lives. Times change and their conditions may change (ie divorce or lose of their mate) and at last they are able to let go and release their real nature. What a relief that must be for them even if it is in the autumn of their years. I applaud any personwho continues to struggle to understand and come to terms with their nature. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, forgive me.
BBBoy, as a not much younger man, I understand the road many took, still take, finding acceptance and comfort in a marriage out of love without passion. As you or someone said else where, there are many Alma's in America, witnessing their Ennis in Jack's embrace. Talk shows have had their fair share on the subject. Each couple's story is unique and I never thought to judge them in anyway. Each person has a different motivation, reasons, to do according to his or her circumstances at the time. What you said makes perfect sense. It is the people, who condemn others whom they never met and judge others so quickly whom they never understood; those people don't make sense to me.
Gary and Luke still haunts me hours after reading the story. The military has a special place in my heart and I have known so many in similar circumstances. There is no right or wrong here. The services put unusual stress on people's psyche, and whatever they do, they are the ones who must live with the consequences, as Gary took the risk, and suffered the result. Luke also had to live with the choices he made. Fear of love...Fear of showing love...Fear of living with or without love...
I say fear not...live simply...and love as often and as much as possible,
expecting nothing in return...that's Ennis' way, at the end.
Jack suffered so much because he gave so much and expected much in return.
From the little that Ennis could give him at the beginning, Jack wanted more.
After his transformation at the Thanksgiving dinner, he DEMANDED more.
I don't condemn Jack, but I also would not have gone down the same road.
Love is not demanding. Demands are not loving.
Love is accepting, as is...without qualification, without reservation.
Conditional love have strings that are better cut, sooner the better.
Sorry, ot...Gary and Luke put me in a funny mood. Thanks, Tony, they are almost as real as Ennis and Jack now. :\'( They will probably haunt me forever. I wish I knew how to quit you.
:ghug: :^^) :c)
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I've just been reading this thread, and what a wonderful discussion is going on here. It seems to be not about Ennis and Jack but about the universal roadblocks so many of us encounter in our search for love. Good job friends, keep up the discussion. O0
I guess the discussion oscillates between Ennis and Jack and the more universal concern you refer to. :)
Ennis's fears and Jack's attempt to understand and master it finds a ready reflection in mny of us, via their own unique experiences.
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Gary and Luke, the seaman and the lieutenant, power and how it plays out in situations. Gary was a victim of it. Luke had a the cards, Gary was left short, played, then played out. It's brutal, but this happens all the time. Gary couldn't see past his love, to see how vunderable he really was. Luke, no matter how close they were didn't see him as peer, equal, and that was Gary mistake.
Ennis and Jack was equal in status, no pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. That was not the case with Gary and Luke. Luke had the power and used it. Gary couldn't get past his love to see it, so the tragedy of love. Like aintfoolin said it was the commitment of love, (aintfoolin, I hope I'm correct), stood between Ennis and Jack, that's the difference.
I hope I'm making sense.
Good point, manhattangirl.
Although there may have also been some power play between Ennis and Jack over they years (on who gets to decide/dictate the terms), I do agree that there is a difference. As you and aintfoolin have pointed out, it was more a question of commitment in the case of Ennis and Jack.
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Lance, the story was real, and you show a good heart for seeing past words on a screen, to the real tragedy. Some details left out-
Luke's wife knew (like Alma) and she suffered greatly, for she was a very sweet woman. Luke was tall and friendly-never saw him showing up
so cold-blooded. Gary looked like a virile drill instructor and his break-down in my car, crutches and all, was very intense. Thanks for caring.
BBBoy-you too showed great humanity in feeling for those you once could not understand. And, of course, tpe is right-we do wobble here
between specifics and generalities, but it is OK, I think, if we don't wobble too far. It does always come back to Ennis and Jack.
Manhattengirl, now am a little worried. I did see the power play in the rank differences in that story, but I kept the story short as possible,
by leaving out that Luke and Gary did complement each other's personality. Luke, friendly and confident, Gary, quiet, not well-educated,
insecure, and hostile to other males, as if potential challengers to a fight.
But were there power-plays between Ennis and Jack? Am scared of that. Don't want to go there. If there were, I'd like to think they
were just stubborn standing of your ground and not anything more.
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There is an old Jewish saying-you saved my life---I can never forgive you. Deep and rich in meaning, and so I wonder if I can say to Lance
and to others here---damn you, just---damn you...for loving and being able to love. But isn't that...why we are here? In this forum? A love story?
I have used personal stories to make concrete the generalities of the challenges to us of BBM. And to understand Ennis and Jack better.
There is one more, and I tell it at some risk, for am prone to being wordy and maybe not getting the point across. It goes to fear of love.
As a grad student at U.Va., I often loathed that place, for its elitism. One status symbol was having thousands of dollars of jewelry stolen
from your dorm room, which would show...how casually you flopped around your wealth. And, the Queen, of course, had stopped in, at times,
to eat with the students, on the way to her horse farm in Kentucky. Even old school arranged marriages- one family offered me a summer at
their estate to move towards an arranged marriage with their gangly daughter-they approved of my family background. Snobbishness and wealth
to an extreme. Side by side with the poverty of the hillbillies surrounding Charlottesville.
The first I noticed something was strange was a gut feeling of something in the woods behind my little apt. in a subdivided mansion, Wertland
Manor. And then, first contact, of sorts. An unkempt but sweetly good-looking lad that was following me as I went along Main Street. He would
hide, when I looked back. Too goofy. Turned out, he was the local mystery. The poor black people who lived in cottages next to the Manor
said he was from the deep woods, afraid of men, lived off of garbage and selling discarded furniture. How old? Maybe 15 to 19 y.o. Dunno.
What caused his fear of males I do not know- a rancid abusive father? All I know is that he studied me and felt I was safe and liked my
girlfriend, Laurie. And he would sleep, tying himself up in the trees, away from animals, so that he would not fall down. I left out food for him,
but he would only eat if very hungry--other times, it was ignored, as if to preserve his pride that he didn't need me.
The tragedy hit at the very worst time. The university had allowed me to commute from Norfolk as my parents were ill, and then suddenly
dying, and I HAD to go home. And he had fallen out of a tree and lacerated his leg to the bone and would go near no one- a wounded animal.
The black folk were themselves very poor but their lives were centered on this tragedy. Help was nearby- the U.Va. medical center, but how
to get him there? He feared all males. From Norfolk, I begged Laurie to take the time and the risk and see if his love for me would transfer
to her. It did, and she eventually got him medical care. He knew her to be safe. For months, he had seen her with me, from the woods.
Fear of love. Laurie and the black folks said- he had loved me, I guess because he saw my habits and am non-threatening. Good God, what
had been DONE to that poor soul? But he feared to take the risk and settled for staying nearby someone he felt would not hurt him.
But would I have hurt him? Would I have failed to understand his life without any school, or family? Would he have bored me, eventually?
Too needy? Maybe a life-long commitment, for he had no one.
These extremes ARE in BBM. Earl and Rich, for Ennis. Jack having his father beat him and piss on him. The cruelty of being discardable males,
basically unneeded in society. LuvJackNasty spoke of how males trashed Jack, all the way to the end. And I have to say, as we try to
understand what happened in BBM and also why there was fear of commitment in Ennis and fear of the greatness of their love, in each,
we must understand, this is not fiction....it is all around us.
BBBoy, I may have been wrong to toss in another story, but I do feel BBM is about love and is intertwined with the real world, and we can
never do right by this love story unless it changes us to look for Ennis and Jack......nearby.
I've run out of steam, on long posts of my past. But it is relevant, in understanding what went wrong and what went right, with our beloved
heroes, to look closer at the world, as those two that we haved loved so much and grieved over may be closer than we think. Maybe in the
woods behind an apartment, maybe down the street, maybe even at the workplace. They might be, as I said.....nearby.
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Lance, the story was real, and you show a good heart for seeing past words on a screen, to the real tragedy. Some details left out-
Luke's wife knew (like Alma) and she suffered greatly, for she was a very sweet woman. Luke was tall and friendly-never saw him showing up
so cold-blooded. Gary looked like a virile drill instructor and his break-down in my car, crutches and all, was very intense. Thanks for caring.
BBBoy-you too showed great humanity in feeling for those you once could not understand. And, of course, tpe is right-we do wobble here
between specifics and generalities, but it is OK, I think, if we don't wobble too far. It does always come back to Ennis and Jack.
Manhattengirl, now am a little worried. I did see the power play in the rank differences in that story, but I kept the story short as possible,
by leaving out that Luke and Gary did complement each other's personality. Luke, friendly and confident, Gary, quiet, not well-educated,
insecure, and hostile to other males, as if potential challengers to a fight.
But were there power-plays between Ennis and Jack? Am scared of that. Don't want to go there. If there were, I'd like to think they
were just stubborn standing of your ground and not anything more.
Wasn't there a little attempt at that between Jack and Ennis, just a little? After the terms of the relationship was set by Ennis, there were no room for negotiation, were there?
I know we don't want to think of that, but how often have we read here in this forum that Jack should have taken a stronger hand against Ennis, and his rules of engagement. But Jack for his own reasons didn't and followed Ennis's lead.
just a thought.
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Manhattengirl, my two memories from the past, combined with your questions makes me wonder if we haven't asked too much of Ennis
and Jack. Because of the romantic sweep of the film, and the focus on a great love, aren't we forgetting that, even within the story and the
film, the artists kept reminding us they had the ordinary pressures of life on them. Ennis bringing the kids to the store. And challenging Jack
to understand the burden of child support. And Jack complaining of real life discomforts and problems-the food on Brokeback Mt., and later,
how tired he was, as he grew older, of cold weather.
We want romantic, we want life extricated from the story line, and they wouldn't give us that, stubbornly keeping to day-to-day, real life
troubles and distractions. Opposites are true in real life. In the above story of Luke and Gary, there were the realities of one finally crossing
the line into romantic love, from friendship love, and Luke wasn't going to give up his career, nice home, and wife. And the story of the poor
hillbilly lad- he wasn't going to give up his pride and admit he needed me, even though the poor black ladies said he would sit, month after
month, waiting for me to come home, and then go running into the woods. The realities of love are obstructed by our everyday life and our
fears. Maybe we should factor that in more, de-glamorize BBM, and respect that they gave us the real conflicts or ordinary life clashing with
the parallel reality of great love. Does THAT make any sense? Am afraid of this whole general area. Somebody help me out, if you feel
up to it.
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"...yet he was suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream.", So Ennis had to close up shop, maybe move in with his married daughter, look for another job, how real could life be for a middle aged man, having to start over.
This what's greets us in the very beginning of the story, life. But what is it that brought Ennis joy, the memory of someone he'd loved. I may be wrong but it sound to me like love extricated from life is the premise, as if it was prisoner or something that imprisoned us, now that would be a tragedy.
If I'm wrong my apologies, but I can't help but feel this.
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You can look at it that way: love extricated from life.
But for some people, a dream is more real than life itself, no?
I think the language of dreams has a syntax partly made up of things that will never be. But there is also a part of this syntax that creates a beautiful language for things that have passed but are deeply remembered.
In the end, we can say that the fear of love has been lifted, to be replaced by a dream of love. It was a love that Ennis truly and really had -- although he fully realized it all too late.
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Manhattengirl, my two memories from the past, combined with your questions makes me wonder if we haven't asked too much of Ennis
and Jack. Because of the romantic sweep of the film, and the focus on a great love, aren't we forgetting that, even within the story and the
film, the artists kept reminding us they had the ordinary pressures of life on them. Ennis bringing the kids to the store. And challenging Jack
to understand the burden of child support. And Jack complaining of real life discomforts and problems-the food on Brokeback Mt., and later,
how tired he was, as he grew older, of cold weather.
We want romantic, we want life extricated from the story line, and they wouldn't give us that, stubbornly keeping to day-to-day, real life
troubles and distractions. Opposites are true in real life. In the above story of Luke and Gary, there were the realities of one finally crossing
the line into romantic love, from friendship love, and Luke wasn't going to give up his career, nice home, and wife. And the story of the poor
hillbilly lad- he wasn't going to give up his pride and admit he needed me, even though the poor black ladies said he would sit, month after
month, waiting for me to come home, and then go running into the woods. The realities of love are obstructed by our everyday life and our
fears. Maybe we should factor that in more, de-glamorize BBM, and respect that they gave us the real conflicts or ordinary life clashing with
the parallel reality of great love. Does THAT make any sense? Am afraid of this whole general area. Somebody help me out, if you feel
up to it.
I was responding to what Tony written. I'm wondering if I understood him. Why do you think this such a fearful emotion. And is this, (I know I going to get hammered on this), a "guy thing", then if true, when does the fear stop, and you do love with an open heart, without the fear.
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Manhattengirl, tpe was responding to your reference to Ennis' dreams, and it was an answer I needed, thinking over your post, for I read it
the same way he did. In fact, the last sentence he wrote pretty much sums up the story of BBM from the angle of fear of love.
But you referred back, then, to my earlier post, and this one is a real snagglepuss, for I must not have made any sense. Was trying to say,
as we do examine fear of love, fear of accepting love, fear of taking risks, in BBM, we should not go too extreme in judging either of our boys,
for they had the same daily junk in their lives that we do, and the movie and the SS show that there. De-glamorizing BBM means, when looking
at their choices, factor out our need for endless romance, factor in the raw troubles of life. Enough to give them more understanding. They
didn't know they were in a movie, is my way of putting it.
As far as when fear of love is conquered and you open up your heart, no, that's not a guy thing. It's the one area where both genders suffer
equally, in emotions. Guys hide hurts more, but the hurt is there all the same.
By the way-this is driving me nuts--there's a song, usually on R&B radio, goes.."..open your heart, and love, again..." Female, black vocalist,
but every time I'd sing it to black friends, they'd recoil in horror. The refrain is all I can remember, and they were always annoyed at my effort
at R&B. Any help would help.
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Personally, I have arrived at a fear of Brokeback Mountain, the movie itself, and I think for me this is one expression of the current topic, the fear of love, though it may more logically belong to a separate topic. I've watched the movie dozens of times. I lost count long ago. A few months back I found that I could not watch it again. The mere thought opened an abyss of dread in me, a horror beyond my emotional capacity to deal with. It turns out that every time I've watched the movie, it took a little more from me than it gave, and ultimately the "trade deficit" was intolerable.
The subject of the movie, it's physical setting, even many of its incidents, were too close to my own experience for me to view it rationally or objectively, as any serious work of art deserves. In the end, it seemed to be preaching a negative sermon reminiscent of Poe's Raven. How many more times do I really need to hear the raven say "Nevermore?" Of course I can read that poem quite safely, since I don't suffer the way Poe did. At any rate, there's enough distance between us. I don't have effective defenses against BBM, however. It gets to me.
Maybe I can watch it again sometime. I hope so.
Manolo
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Personally, I have arrived at a fear of Brokeback Mountain, the movie itself, and I think for me this is one expression of the current topic, the fear of love, though it may more logically belong to a separate topic. I've watched the movie dozens of times. I lost count long ago. A few months back I found that I could not watch it again. The mere thought opened an abyss of dread in me, a horror beyond my emotional capacity to deal with. It turns out that every time I've watched the movie, it took a little more from me than it gave, and ultimately the "trade deficit" was intolerable.
The subject of the movie, it's physical setting, even many of its incidents, were too close to my own experience for me to view it rationally or objectively, as any serious work of art deserves. In the end, it seemed to be preaching a negative sermon reminiscent of Poe's Raven. How many more times do I really need to hear the raven say "Nevermore?" Of course I can read that poem quite safely, since I don't suffer the way Poe did. At any rate, there's enough distance between us. I don't have effective defenses against BBM, however. It gets to me.
Maybe I can watch it again sometime. I hope so.
Manolo
I would sugget you watch it with like minded people and hold them very close. Perhaps it will help you turn around the "nevermore" and find the "well maybe". We all have th capcity to find that kind of love. We just have to make ourselves vulnerable to it. O0
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Dear manolo---thank-you for your speaking to fear of the movie itself, and for your blunt assessment, "a negative sermon".
There was some similarity between BBM and that moody and evil development in French philosophy-existentialism. Big word for a sad belief,
that there was no God, nor meaning to life, and mankind's fate was to suffer on, nobly. And the decadence of that philosophy did paralyze
thinking people, paving the way for wars in Europe, the Holocaust, and everything since. Even Ennis' statement-if you can't fix it, you just
gotta stand it-is, in one way-defeatist, and energy sapping. The other direction, of course, is "The Sound of Music", where there is resistance
to a wave of evil and the mood is light and cheery and, wheee, you can fix anything, even the nazis, if only you believe.
I do see your sensitivity to the moody enobling of loss. My own hope is that the film does not promote despair, but rather, savages us
with hurts so that the layers of indifference can be peeled off our tough hides and we can believe in love, again.
You also did say that it hit too close to home, meaning, perhaps, your own painful experiences. That, sir, would be different. In any case,
I, for one, understood you, have wondered along the same lines, but have preferred to see where BBM can heal. Meanwhile, don't watch the
movie, then, but please be sure, you are always welcome here. You sound like a very good man. Tony.
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I would sugget you watch it with like minded people and hold them very close. Perhaps it will help you turn around the "nevermore" and find the "well maybe". We all have th capcity to find that kind of love. We just have to make ourselves vulnerable to it. O0
Excellent advice. Manolo, I feel the same way as you do, and can't watch the movie straight by myself.
It's interesting that manolo brings up the "nevermore" element in the movie -- the pain of love lost. As I had said in an early email, the dynamic in the movie shifts from a fear of love to the regret of finally losing it. I think if you take this as a rather simplistic moral tale, it would not do justice to the subtlety and richness of the story. It is really about the persistence of the love that binds people, in spite of the intrinsic fragility/tenuousness of it, rather than the fear and the loss of love.
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Excellent advice. Manolo, I feel the same way as you do, and can't watch the movie straight by myself.
It's interesting that manolo brings up the "nevermore" element in the movie -- the pain of love lost. As I had said in an early email, the dynamic in the movie shifts from a fear of love to the regret of finally losing it. I think if you take this as a rather simplistic moral tale, it would not do justice to the subtlety and richness of the story. It is really about the persistence of the love that binds people, in spite of the intrinsic fragility/tenuousness of it, rather than the fear and the loss of love.
This is profound, tpe.
Love, the tenderest of emotions, is also the strongest and toughest emotion between Ennis and Jack.
In spite of their fear of showing love, in spite of their fear of losing love,
they persevered for twenty years loving each other.
Brokeback Mountain to me is about:
devoted love (Ennis's love for Jack and Jack alone, Jack's Ma's acceptance),
committed love (Ennis and Jack for each other), as well as,
love lost (Ennis lost Jack),
love denied (Earl and Rich, Ennis and Jack, denied by society),
love unrequited (Jack desire for more not returned by Ennis, Cassie's love for Ennis, Alma and Lureen's love for Ennis and Jack), and
love regretted (Ennis not showing more love to Jack when he was alive).
I haven't watched the movie for a couple weeks now, and just watching the trailer the other day puts me in tears again. I also feel what you mean, the power of this movie over me. It is enough that I catch glimpses of it from the reflections of it here in this forum. Like the Sun, Brokeback Mountain can be too overpowering to look at directly. I am with nervous anticipation to the time when I can watch it on the big screen with fellow Brokies in a meet.
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Lance, the story was real, and you show a good heart for seeing past words on a screen, to the real tragedy. Some details left out-
Luke's wife knew (like Alma) and she suffered greatly, for she was a very sweet woman. Luke was tall and friendly-never saw him showing up
so cold-blooded. Gary looked like a virile drill instructor and his break-down in my car, crutches and all, was very intense. Thanks for caring.
BBBoy-you too showed great humanity in feeling for those you once could not understand. And, of course, tpe is right-we do wobble here
between specifics and generalities, but it is OK, I think, if we don't wobble too far. It does always come back to Ennis and Jack.
Manhattengirl, now am a little worried. I did see the power play in the rank differences in that story, but I kept the story short as possible,
by leaving out that Luke and Gary did complement each other's personality. Luke, friendly and confident, Gary, quiet, not well-educated,
insecure, and hostile to other males, as if potential challengers to a fight.
But were there power-plays between Ennis and Jack? Am scared of that. Don't want to go there. If there were, I'd like to think they
were just stubborn standing of your ground and not anything more.
Tony, this is a wonderful thread you started, and your long posts are full of treasures. Please continue. I enjoy reading them even though I seldom respond in this thread, preferring to read and learn from the erudite expositions from you, MG, tpe, et al.
I am compelled to respond in this case because the specific topic resonates with me on some levels. In my humble opinion, role-playing and power struggle are natural elements in any relationship. One person naturally on occasion dominates the relationship by virtue of rank, wealth, talents, abilities, looks, social status, etc. However, everyone is good at something, and it is what makes love complements so wonderful. When one person always dominates (as in the case of Luke and Gary) then the relationship becomes unhealthy, because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Ennis complements Jack and Jack complements Ennis, in the same way that Luke and Gary complemented each other. Unfortunately for Gary (and Luke, too, in the long run) their relationship was more heavily weighted, in that Luke had all the power, and Gary had little to do, except as Ennis did, by withholding his commitment and sexual liaisons. Women understood this for many centuries. No sex before marriage, before dowries, etc. Gary gave in, due to circumstances, and lost completely. Ennis held on for as long as he could, and when Jack grew increasingly dominant, he broke.
True love demands that we give up our own tendency for whatever role, and take on the role that best completes the relationship. Luke did not love Gary, or he would not have been so brutal. Brutality is the antithesis of love. Tough love is about being tough within, to stand firm on principles and not give in, not yielding to unreasonable demands. Tough love is not about being brutal on the person you love.
Ennis understood tough love, in his own traumatized way, not giving in to Jack, and his own longing, yearning desire for the sweet life, thinking (however incorrectly) that to yield to Jack was to go down the path of Earl and Rich. But in the end, he was not as tough in that final meeting scene, because he was fighting a losing battle with his own heart on both sides.
Jack loved Ennis for twenty years, and yielded to his fears for as long, but living in the city and mixing in a more worldly crowd, he knew the world has changed, and their sweet life was within grasp. He was trying tough love with Ennis, to push him beyond the limits of his fears. In the end, he loved Ennis so much, he would let it go, and not break Ennis further. To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love.
Role playing and power struggles are natural in relationships, but not conducive to true love relationships. IMO. I feel for Gary as much as I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that. This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. I hope Gary found fulfillment, too.
:ghug: <^( :^^) :c) ^f^
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(I wrote the following before the last two or threes messages appeared in this topic. I know there's a slightly sarcastic or ironic tone to what I'm saying, but I require some humor to be able to think about BBM at all. I'm a little vulnerable right now. I'm trying to be amusing, not offensive.)
The tragedy of BBM isn't exactly what it seems. For instance, it isn't that Jack and Ennis miss out on the bliss of permanent cohabitation. I won't even try to imagine how that would have turned out, but many years ago Jack Benny did a hilarious takeoff on Tarzan and Jane a few years into their marriage, with Benny playing Tarzan and Carol Burnett playing Jane. Keeping the tree house neat and swept would be hard enough without chimps and other forest animals forever underfoot. And imagine having to clean and cook whatever game Tarzan provided to eat. No, that kind of success is the cruelest possible outcome of true love. In traditional stories, true love is always star-crossed. True lovers never really get together except perhaps posthumously when vines from their graves intertwine. In BBM, that function is served by the Levi jacket and worn western shirt forever joined on a hanger in the closet.
The tragedy isn't even homophobia or Jack's death.
It's hard to define what the tragedy is, but damn it's heartbreaking. Maybe it's the pain of love itself, something irreducibly mysterious. I can't define it, but I can say that when a connection like that is established between two men, and if something goes wrong and the connection gets broken or interrupted, it will cause suffering like no other.
Manolo
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This is profound, tpe.
Love, the tenderest of emotions, is also the strongest and toughest emotion between Ennis and Jack.
In spite of their fear of showing love, in spite of their fear of losing love,
they persevered for twenty years loving each other.
Brokeback Mountain to me is about:
devoted love (Ennis's love for Jack and Jack alone, Jack's Ma's acceptance),
committed love (Ennis and Jack for each other), as well as,
love lost (Ennis lost Jack),
love denied (Earl and Rich, Ennis and Jack, denied by society),
love unrequited (Jack desire for more not returned by Ennis, Cassie's love for Ennis, Alma and Lureen's love for Ennis and Jack), and
love regretted (Ennis not showing more love to Jack when he was alive).
I haven't watched the movie for a couple weeks now, and just watching the trailer the other day puts me in tears again. I also feel what you mean, the power of this movie over me. It is enough that I catch glimpses of it from the reflections of it here in this forum. Like the Sun, Brokeback Mountain can be too overpowering to look at directly. I am with nervous anticipation to the time when I can watch it on the big screen with fellow Brokies in a meet.
Yes, love is tender, and yet it has an edge that can cut -- and cut deep. I think much of the fear of love is fear of being cut, so to speak. The same with us, the viewers: our own fears are projected, and we therefore find it difficult to watch certain scenes. Ennis overcame a bit of the fear with the help of someone else (Jack). So too, our trepidation can be assuaged by watching this with fellow brokies. :)
I have not watched the movie since the brokie gathering in Maryland. Most likely, I will get to watch it again during the next one, wherever/whenever it is.
Thanks manolo.
And thanks lance. :)
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I've caught this thread a bit too late, there are so many posts and so long and deep...It'll take me some time to read them, but congratulations to you all..I think it's one of the most interesting threads in this forum ^f^
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Dear manolo---your two posts were of great interest to me and I hope I am not being overly-familiar in my reaction to them.
You spoke, first, of the deadly abyss, to be found in Poe's poem-the Raven's smirking conclusion to a real love, lost. Then, with some
humor, you brought up a comedy skit showing the absurdity of a romantic love lingering into old age (who cleans up the monkey poop?).
You seem to be drifting into a sense that real love must be between two people at the peak of their attractiveness and life-force and that
even then, there is a mysterious, haunting pain, which might be better cut short.
And you've also mentioned, ever so slightly, some pain in your life right now. Here is where I may give offense, by being too forward.
Manolo, get away from these thoughts, where they are combining into a life-outlook, and as quickly as possible. Your sense of humor is
an armor that can let you examine them independently (and, by the way, they would, separately, provide some real progress in this thread),
but, linked together, I think they could steal from you your right to quietly, at your own pace, look over love, again.
At the risk of making myself a fool (a risk I often take), I am saying that you appear to be....a gentleman, and one who is wondering
what everything comes to, in your own thoughtful way. Take care---independent thoughts can combine to do grave harm to your better
self--good humor and abiding respect for love. BBBoy's words were the best, in his reply. But I am a little cranky and do often fear that,
unless challenged, a mood, an outlook, can be thieving from what is due for us-----healing. My deepest apology if I have mis-spoken. Tony.
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Your comments are welcome, Tony, and I see nothing offensive about them. I think I have allowed myself to be shut into a rather cynical view of love. Maybe the biggest challenge of all is keeping free of such self-imposed limits. For some reason I and many others seem to prefer our suffering to the possibilities of healing. Such an attitude seems to be what keeps the jukebox playing, considering how much popular music celebrates the pain of love.
When I first saw BBM, I got a big lift from it. I felt that it validated and seconded much of my emotional life, promoting a more positive attitude toward it. Later, it fed into my negativity. You are quite right to see that negativity and counter it. No matter how painful and negative some of my experiences have been, there's no good reason for me to be negative myself, and I wouldn't want to calcify emotionally that way.
I'm trying to remember why BBM made me so positive at first and so negative later on. Are both tendencies present in the film, or just in the viewer?
Manolo
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Hi-manolo----kinda think both tendencies are in the film and the viewer, but intertwined like a helix. Maybe, together, they produce
emotional catharsis (dammit-gotta stop using these $20 words! Need some nickel words.). Unravelled, we got trouble. At some point, you
may have gotten catharted out (new word, sorry).
Some might find it sinister, the way the film uses sound, color tones, tempo, to draw you in for a knock-out punch. It alternates between
being a mood film, which can be dark, and a message film, which can uplift, if you see the message as the enduring power of love.
There are a lot of threads that show the good, the way these two healed each other and, pimping my own first thread, (Ennis & Jack,
Change and Redemption), how they gave meaning to each others lives. This forum is loaded with threads that explore the vibrant life they
had and what they gave to each other, to the good.
"How Green Was My Valley" is the only other work that had me to weeping, and that one ended terribly, too---but it was also a celebration
of life and the unexpected richness of beauty, found in a Welsh coal-mining town. Maybe great art must reflect the bad and the good, as
anything else is a cartoon. Anyway-thanks for taking no offense, for I spoke from good will. Tony.
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(I wrote the following before the last two or threes messages appeared in this topic. I know there's a slightly sarcastic or ironic tone to what I'm saying, but I require some humor to be able to think about BBM at all. I'm a little vulnerable right now. I'm trying to be amusing, not offensive.)
The tragedy of BBM isn't exactly what it seems. For instance, it isn't that Jack and Ennis miss out on the bliss of permanent cohabitation. I won't even try to imagine how that would have turned out, but many years ago Jack Benny did a hilarious takeoff on Tarzan and Jane a few years into their marriage, with Benny playing Tarzan and Carol Burnett playing Jane. Keeping the tree house neat and swept would be hard enough without chimps and other forest animals forever underfoot. And imagine having to clean and cook whatever game Tarzan provided to eat. No, that kind of success is the cruelest possible outcome of true love. In traditional stories, true love is always star-crossed. True lovers never really get together except perhaps posthumously when vines from their graves intertwine. In BBM, that function is served by the Levi jacket and worn western shirt forever joined on a hanger in the closet.
The tragedy isn't even homophobia or Jack's death.
It's hard to define what the tragedy is, but damn it's heartbreaking. Maybe it's the pain of love itself, something irreducibly mysterious. I can't define it, but I can say that when a connection like that is established between two men, and if something goes wrong and the connection gets broken or interrupted, it will cause suffering like no other.
Manolo
Hi, Manolo, no worries, your post is well-written, and not offensive at all. I feel the same about love confronted with daily chores. It is one thing to love and enjoy the honeymoon, but quite another to care for the kids, and little things, like laundry and vacuuming. We won't even get into the bathroom scene. Your light humor also helps to lift the PBS around here. Most important of all, I welcome a fellow Carol Burnett fan! #$# I grew up watching her shows, and love everyone. I miss her self-deprecating humor, her insight into human relationships. I wonder what she has to say about Brokeback Mountain. I can imagine her brand of humor showing up in FNIT or the last meeting scene.
Love is grand when it is smooth as silk.
Love can cut when it is rough and uneven.
To love is to take risk, so love carefully.
To love is to hope for the best, so dream grand dreams.
To love is to be vulnerable, so trust with open eyes.
To love is to hold your lover's heart in your hands, so tread gently.
I have love and lost, as many here and everywhere.
Is it better to have love and lost, then never to have loved at all?
It is a question that only a person who has loved and lost can answer,
and only for the self, not others, because every love is different, every person is different.
Thanks, Manolo, for shedding some humor into the mix.
I always get too serious and too depressing in my long posts. ^f^ :c) :cr)
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Yes, love is tender, and yet it has an edge that can cut -- and cut deep. I think much of the fear of love is fear of being cut, so to speak. The same with us, the viewers: our own fears are projected, and we therefore find it difficult to watch certain scenes. Ennis overcame a bit of the fear with the help of someone else (Jack). So too, our trepidation can be assuaged by watching this with fellow brokies. :)
I have not watched the movie since the brokie gathering in Maryland. Most likely, I will get to watch it again during the next one, wherever/whenever it is.
Thanks manolo.
And thanks lance. :)
Hi, tpe, there is no fury worst than a woman's scorn. Love and hate are mere opposite sides of the same coin. As someone wise said, and I can't remember who: to be loved is to have your lover's heart in your hands. Love can cut; our beloved can crush our heart with careless ease, with witty cutting remarks, with thoughtless actions or inactions. To love is to be vulnerable. And nothing cuts deeper than a cut on naked flesh. For those who have loved and lost, love unrequited, love denied, the cut is deep and fresh, and fear of love is but fear to risk being cut again. The deeper the wound, the greater the fear.
Cutting, crushing, careless thoughtless people, cruel and uncaring...these are the tragedies of the world, not the lovers who risk their hearts, the people who reach out with hope and dreams, even overcoming tremendous odds, overwhelming fears.
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Hi, Manolo, no worries, your post is well-written, and not offensive at all. I feel the same about love confronted with daily chores. It is one thing to love and enjoy the honeymoon, but quite another to care for the kids, and little things, like laundry and vacuuming. We won't even get into the bathroom scene. Your light humor also helps to lift the PBS around here. Most important of all, I welcome a fellow Carol Burnett fan! #$# I grew up watching her shows, and love everyone. I miss her self-deprecating humor, her insight into human relationships. I wonder what she has to say about Brokeback Mountain. I can imagine her brand of humor showing up in FNIT or the last meeting scene.
Love is grand when it is smooth as silk.
Love can cut when it is rough and uneven.
To love is to take risk, so love carefully.
To love is to hope for the best, so dream grand dreams.
To love is to be vulnerable, so trust with open eyes.
To love is to hold your lover's heart in your hands, so tread gently.
I have love and lost, as many here and everywhere.
Is it better to have love and lost, then never to have loved at all?
It is a question that only a person who has loved and lost can answer,
and only for the self, not others, because every love is different, every person is different.
Thanks, Manolo, for shedding some humor into the mix.
I always get too serious and too depressing in my long posts. ^f^ :c) :cr)
Now see, you guys had to go there. I can't help but smile when I remember her in the "Gone with the Wind" skit, and the drapery rods still in her dress. How would the interpet BBM, Harvey Korman as Ennis, and Tim Conway as Jack, and Carol as Alma when she see them kissing in the Reunion scene just imagine the look on her face. Now you see, I can't get this imagine out my head. Thanks a lot.
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Now see, you guys had to go there. I can't help but smile when I remember her in the "Gone with the Wind" skit, and the drapery rods still in her dress. How would the interpet BBM, Harvey Korman as Ennis, and Tim Conway as Jack, and Carol as Alma when she see them kissing in the Reunion scene just imagine the look on her face. Now you see, I can't get this imagine out my head. Thanks a lot.
:8 :8 :8 (t) (t) (t) :8 :8 :8
ROFLMAO :8 :8 :8
MG thanks for spreading the image...I love Harvey and Tim, and Carol as Alma!!! :8 :8 :8 That's just priceless...Thanks a million. We must do this skit when we meet. IT IS A HOWL! I can imagine the reunion embrace....innnn sloooow mooootion, :8 :8 :8
Sorry if I got carried away, but you caught me off guard at 3 AM in the morning, and I am a real Carol Burnett fan. Love her to bits. :ghug: I can't tell you how good it feels to just laugh so hard just now.... :t)
:ghug: <^( <^( <^( :c) ^f^ :^^)
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Love and loss, laughter and tears, presence and absence, dark and light, yin and yang; if these are entwined as the two sides of a helix, then the helix most of us think of is DNA. And each elemnt on one side is joined to its complementary one by a rung - so it's in the nature of existence, and deeply encoded in our cells, that to every positive there's a negative, and accepting this is part of learning to live.
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These latest posts have gotten me thinking, which, in my case, can be with results annoying to others. Will start with Welshwitch's
development of the helix, which football I will try to run with towards a touchdown.
Ever notice how your pets, a dog or a cat, are perfectly comfortable with you, and all is normal, until they see another of their kind?
It all collapses, as they see....another like unto themselves, with fur and fangs, and the need to...well, sniff things out. YOU are briefly,of
no consequence. It is the OTHER they want to know. Alas, the same, with small children in the supermarket. All is well, until they see
another of their kind, and they are mesmerized, looking each other over. Who are YOU?
In friendships and much more, in love with another, the Me and the You are the helix, intertwining. But it can be a difficult fit because
we are so made, that we are naturally self-absorbed, and naturally in need of others. In DNA there can be a dominant strand, so it would
not be so terrible, in a love, for one to put himself first, at times, and the other adapt. So there is that tension of the helix fitting together,
and bruises and hurts where it does not, and yet the strands have found each other, and must sort out the Me and the You.
Ennis and Jack were, then, always trying to fit, as best as they could (and it is amazing how their story reflects the harsh reality of real
life---no phony perfections, there...). And so it worked, and it didn't. The two strands had found each other, but each link did not exactly
fit. The helix became complete, only after Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts, and then the awful realization for Ennis, that the
fit was more perfect than he knew. But that is the tension in love (Manhattengirl, am in your territory now), the difficulty in fitting together
the Me and the You, into a functioning helix, independent of the rest of the world.
By the way, on the other subject of de-glamorizing BBM, briefly, to better understand the challenges they faced, I reviewed the stories I
have told here and in other threads, of personal encounters. Had I pumped them up? Romanticized them? The answer is a nightmare for me-
I had not. They were much more than I told, including that sweet hillbilly lad, who so very much needed a friend and who did, in fact, stay as
near as he could, without giving up his pride, for so many months. The strand of friendship never came together, the Me and the You, were
kept apart by fear and terrible wounds, still bleeding, in his life, and my own pressure of a daily schedule. I wonder where he is, now, and if
someone finally gained his trust and that, this day, he has a home and all the fixings of a holiday meal. Life, daily life, brought troubles to
Ennis and Jack. We should give them, and ourselves, a break, when the strands of the helix don't perfectly fit.
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Was Jack and Ennis living a life not fitted to them, wouldn't the helix collapses then. A shadow life, neither man was at peace with himself apart from each other, the structure is weaken. Remember the scene with Ennis watching Starsky and Hutch, beer in hand, not moving. Alma wanted to go to the church social, Ennis wasn't interested, Jack comes to town, Ennis is ready to go, looking all "perky" when he gets back.
They held on to each other for nearly twenty years, why? Because what they had was more real than the lives they were living. But the fear was leaving that world, and creating one of their own was the stumbling block, Jack was willing, Ennis was relunctant. A house divided.
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The tragedy of BBM isn't exactly what it seems. For instance, it isn't that Jack and Ennis miss out on the bliss of permanent cohabitation. I won't even try to imagine how that would have turned out, but many years ago Jack Benny did a hilarious takeoff on Tarzan and Jane a few years into their marriage, with Benny playing Tarzan and Carol Burnett playing Jane. Keeping the tree house neat and swept would be hard enough without chimps and other forest animals forever underfoot. And imagine having to clean and cook whatever game Tarzan provided to eat. No, that kind of success is the cruelest possible outcome of true love. In traditional stories, true love is always star-crossed. True lovers never really get together except perhaps posthumously when vines from their graves intertwine. In BBM, that function is served by the Levi jacket and worn western shirt forever joined on a hanger in the closet.
The tragedy isn't even homophobia or Jack's death.
It's hard to define what the tragedy is, but damn it's heartbreaking. Maybe it's the pain of love itself, something irreducibly mysterious. I can't define it, but I can say that when a connection like that is established between two men, and if something goes wrong and the connection gets broken or interrupted, it will cause suffering like no other.
Manolo
Very beautiful post Manolo!!!
I agree 200% with you!!! I've always thought that the tragedy in BBM wasn't homophobia nor Jack's death, and you know how to put some of my thoughts in words!!!
Thank you so much for that!!! ^f^
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Tony, this is a wonderful thread you started, and your long posts are full of treasures. Please continue. I enjoy reading them even though I seldom respond in this thread, preferring to read and learn from the erudite expositions from you, MG, tpe, et al.
I am compelled to respond in this case because the specific topic resonates with me on some levels. In my humble opinion, role-playing and power struggle are natural elements in any relationship. One person naturally on occasion dominates the relationship by virtue of rank, wealth, talents, abilities, looks, social status, etc. However, everyone is good at something, and it is what makes love complements so wonderful. When one person always dominates (as in the case of Luke and Gary) then the relationship becomes unhealthy, because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Ennis complements Jack and Jack complements Ennis, in the same way that Luke and Gary complemented each other. Unfortunately for Gary (and Luke, too, in the long run) their relationship was more heavily weighted, in that Luke had all the power, and Gary had little to do, except as Ennis did, by withholding his commitment and sexual liaisons. Women understood this for many centuries. No sex before marriage, before dowries, etc. Gary gave in, due to circumstances, and lost completely. Ennis held on for as long as he could, and when Jack grew increasingly dominant, he broke.
True love demands that we give up our own tendency for whatever role, and take on the role that best completes the relationship. Luke did not love Gary, or he would not have been so brutal. Brutality is the antithesis of love. Tough love is about being tough within, to stand firm on principles and not give in, not yielding to unreasonable demands. Tough love is not about being brutal on the person you love.
Ennis understood tough love, in his own traumatized way, not giving in to Jack, and his own longing, yearning desire for the sweet life, thinking (however incorrectly) that to yield to Jack was to go down the path of Earl and Rich. But in the end, he was not as tough in that final meeting scene, because he was fighting a losing battle with his own heart on both sides.
Jack loved Ennis for twenty years, and yielded to his fears for as long, but living in the city and mixing in a more worldly crowd, he knew the world has changed, and their sweet life was within grasp. He was trying tough love with Ennis, to push him beyond the limits of his fears. In the end, he loved Ennis so much, he would let it go, and not break Ennis further. To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love.
Role playing and power struggles are natural in relationships, but not conducive to true love relationships. IMO. I feel for Gary as much as I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that. This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. I hope Gary found fulfillment, too.
:ghug: <^( :^^) :c) ^f^
Lance, I really love all yours posts friend!!
So beautiful and well said!!! ^f^
*o) Hey cowboy, really, I'm so terribly sorry for your lost.... :\'( But I hope you are OK now; I know you're strong like Ennis and we all in this forum love you. I wish you all the happiness of the world!!! :^^)
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Hi, tpe, there is no fury worst than a woman's scorn. Love and hate are mere opposite sides of the same coin. As someone wise said, and I can't remember who: to be loved is to have your lover's heart in your hands. Love can cut; our beloved can crush our heart with careless ease, with witty cutting remarks, with thoughtless actions or inactions. To love is to be vulnerable. And nothing cuts deeper than a cut on naked flesh. For those who have loved and lost, love unrequited, love denied, the cut is deep and fresh, and fear of love is but fear to risk being cut again. The deeper the wound, the greater the fear.
Cutting, crushing, careless thoughtless people, cruel and uncaring...these are the tragedies of the world, not the lovers who risk their hearts, the people who reach out with hope and dreams, even overcoming tremendous odds, overwhelming fears.
Indeed, part of the fear of love is the fear to put oneself in another person's hands. One cannot love without putting oneself in a position of emotional vulnerability. Rejection and scorn can cut very deep, and such a wound does not easily heal that quickly.
That taken into account, it certainly takes a lot of courage to love, and love deeply. And abiding faithfulness can only be born out of such courage and the will to be vulnerable for the sake of the other. How does Scripture put it? Fidelis usque ad mortem et dabo tibi coronam vitae ("Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life")
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Well, passed my two drink minimum last night during the adventure known as " Thanksgiving dinner with the Relatives", but that's defintly a country song, so here I am trying to decipher sober life again through the haze of
"hangover heaven" or is it hell? LOL. Thank goodness for alka seltzer, the cure, but anyway I've been reading the thread and feel compelled to post.
I've pondered often , HOW did these two cowboys get together in the first place. At first glance, on the surface, Jack and Ennis seem so different personality wise and in many other ways, which leads me to this question. At 19, did they know themselves well enough to recognize " real true love"? Or was it both their past upbringins that compelled them to seek out what was missing in their lives from each other,in order to find a sense of completion.
I don't think they sought love out, but more a case of seeking, like most of us at that age, a deeper meaning of life. In this sense they were both vulnerable and complex. Niether were deep thinkers, nor communicated very well, especially Ennis, who for all his outward stoic, orderly lifestyle, his knack for order and common sense thinking, found himself loosing control of this in his love for Jack. The more love Jack smothered him with love , the more control was was lost and Ennis begins using fam, jobs and other issues to hide his desperation of fear of loosing it completly. He loved and desired this "thing" as he called it but this love was stripping him bare. his desire for Jack opening old wounds. He would being asked to show all vulnerabilties, hand them all over to Jack's loving hands, place himself naked in body and soul. To ACCEPT all that Jack was offering comes down to a matter of total trust from being that exposed.
Ennis saw himself a certain way, and now everything in his world is being turned upside down, because Jack loved him and it is in this mindset that he feels he must change his routine life. It is here that he is not ready, willing or able to do this.
Jack loved him as is , but Ennis felt he have to give up who he had been taught all his life to be. , in order to accept this much unconditional love. I feel this is Ennis's biggest fear. What would he have to do? How is he suppose to act? How much would he be willing to give of himself in the face of love? Jack's love.
And what about Ennis's common sense thinking in how he really saw Jack. I wonder if Ennis felt Jack himself was really ready for what he wanted, the sweet life and all that that entails? Did Ennis understand , and trust enough in order to accept Jack's love fully and freely and then reciprocate it? I think not. I won't say that a part of him deep inside did not want to learn to love Jack without the restraints, or even thought it possible, but he did'nt know how. He seems to be one who was always taught to fix his own problems, think for your self and never accept weakness in himself or others.
Nothing in his past had prepared him for the love of Jack Twist, another man, but he did remember Earl and Rich. The negative outcome of their lives and their love , his only example, of what could or would happen. Jack is in the unenviable position of reversing the effects of that hateful act. That aint an easy task as was proven in the film.
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Well, passed my two drink minimum last night during the adventure known as " Thanksgiving dinner with the Relatives", but that's defintly a country song, so here I am trying to decipher sober life again through the haze of
"hangover heaven" or is it hell? LOL. Thank goodness for alka seltzer, the cure, but anyway I've been reading the thread and feel compelled to post.
I've pondered often , HOW did these two cowboys get together in the first place. At first glance, on the surface, Jack and Ennis seem so different personality wise and in many other ways, which leads me to this question. At 19, did they know themselves well enough to recognize " real true love"? Or was it both their past upbringins that compelled them to seek out what was missing in their lives from each other,in order to find a sense of completion.
I don't think they sought love out, but more a case of seeking, like most of us at that age, a deeper meaning of life. In this sense they were both vulnerable and complex. Niether were deep thinkers, nor communicated very well, especially Ennis, who for all his outward stoic, orderly lifestyle, his knack for order and common sense thinking, found himself loosing control of this in his love for Jack. The more love Jack smothered him with love , the more control was was lost and Ennis begins using fam, jobs and other issues to hide his desperation of fear of loosing it completly. He loved and desired this "thing" as he called it but this love was stripping him bare. his desire for Jack opening old wounds. He would being asked to show all vulnerabilties, hand them all over to Jack's loving hands, place himself naked in body and soul. To ACCEPT all that Jack was offering comes down to a matter of total trust from being that exposed.
Ennis saw himself a certain way, and now everything in his world is being turned upside down, because Jack loved him and it is in this mindset that he feels he must change his routine life. It is here that he is not ready, willing or able to do this.
Jack loved him as is , but Ennis felt he have to give up who he had been taught all his life to be. , in order to accept this much unconditional love. I feel this is Ennis's biggest fear. What would he have to do? How is he suppose to act? How much would he be willing to give of himself in the face of love? Jack's love.
And what about Ennis's common sense thinking in how he really saw Jack. I wonder if Ennis felt Jack himself was really ready for what he wanted, the sweet life and all that that entails? Did Ennis understand , and trust enough in order to accept Jack's love fully and freely and then reciprocate it? I think not. I won't say that a part of him deep inside did not want to learn to love Jack without the restraints, or even thought it possible, but he did'nt know how. He seems to be one who was always taught to fix his own problems, think for your self and never accept weakness in himself or others.
Nothing in his past had prepared him for the love of Jack Twist, another man, but he did remember Earl and Rich. The negative outcome of their lives and their love , his only example, of what could or would happen. Jack is in the unenviable position of reversing the effects of that hateful act. That aint an easy task as was proven in the film.
I'm stunned!!! Without words!! So beautiful post AF...and so true, really. You've made me think, a lot.....
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Aintfoolin, what you wrote and what I got out of it may be two different things, but what I saw was that you moved towards the normal
love problems, including not being used to being in love and also the difference between Ennis being practical and Jack being a dreamer. Those
weren't your exact words--but that's what I saw there. And there's many a scene where Ennis has to bring up the practical-like the one where
he goes, sure, you and Lureen will take in my kids and L.D. Newsome will rain money on us.....etc., and he loses the cooking pan in the stream.
That's what I had meant when I said the issues of homophobia and repression were never going to go away, but that we could give these
guys a break, and grant that they had normal problems, which we ought to look over, too. Dammit, if it takes your having a rare hangover
to finally get us there----please....drink more often. Thanks.....Tony.
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It is so good to see this discussion going on here. :clap: Bravo to you all.
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Lance, I really love all yours posts friend!!
So beautiful and well said!!! ^f^
*o) Hey cowboy, really, I'm so terribly sorry for your lost.... :\'( But I hope you are OK now; I know you're strong like Ennis and we all in this forum love you. I wish you all the happiness of the world!!! :^^)
Grazias, amiga babytammy7. I don't know what comes over when I sit in front of the computer in this forum. My fingers begin to dance on their own and words that don't seem to belong to me come pouring out. I read what you bolded, and it amazed me, too. I didn't know I had it in me to say something like that. "To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love. [...] I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that. This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. "
I thought I was the only one, alone with a loss that I dared not speak its name, fear of showing emotions, of love that is ashamed in the world. The loss was natural and common in this world, unfortunately, and I would have gotten over it eventually, however hard it was. But to be ashamed of it, to fear it on top of losing it, and all the regrets...That was the hardest part of all. I still have my dark and painful days, but the movie made it better, to watch it and let my feelings out, let the tears and sobs come unbidden, and let them go unashamed.
I think that was the best and most wonderful gift of all, the one that Ennis took with him when he left Lightning Flat, no longer ashamed, no long afraid. This forum gave me that gift... no longer afraid of love, of losing love, of not being loved, of the cruel words from a cold world. No matter what, those last few scenes will always comfort me in my misery, and give me strength to carry on. This last week had been very taxing and testing. I don't think I would have lived through the stress, the emotional strain, without the emotional strength from the last two months. Sometimes, I wonder if there isn't a grand plan, designing the circumstances of my life. I just wish it didn't have all the painful stuff, but like my favorite Garth Brooks song, The Dance...I'm glad I didn't know the painful end, because then I'd miss the dance. It's better to leave it all to chance...
Like I said, my fingers just flew over the keyboard by themselves, and I have no idea if anything comes out making sense or not.
I am just grateful, thankful that real people share my words, and sometimes validate my being.
Grazias :ghug: :^^) <^(
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Grazias, amiga babytammy7. I don't know what comes over when I sit in front of the computer in this forum. My fingers begin to dance on their own and words that don't seem to belong to me come pouring out. I read what you bolded, and it amazed me, too. I didn't know I had it in me to say something like that. "To truly love someone is to have the courage to suffer while giving the ultimate gift of happiness to the person you love. [...] I feel for Ennis, and all the other tin men, cowboys, voiceless men who suffer inwardly while showing a tough exterior. I was one of them. The friend I lost saw through the exterior and embraced me within. After giving him my heart and soul, I had nothing more to give, when he was gone. The movie healed that. This forum and all the warm people in it changed that. "
I thought I was the only one, alone with a loss that I dared not speak its name, fear of showing emotions, of love that is ashamed in the world. The loss was natural and common in this world, unfortunately, and I would have gotten over it eventually, however hard it was. But to be ashamed of it, to fear it on top of losing it, and all the regrets...That was the hardest part of all. I still have my dark and painful days, but the movie made it better, to watch it and let my feelings out, let the tears and sobs come unbidden, and let them go unashamed.
I think that was the best and most wonderful gift of all, the one that Ennis took with him when he left Lightning Flat, no longer ashamed, no long afraid. This forum gave me that gift... no longer afraid of love, of losing love, of not being loved, of the cruel words from a cold world. No matter what, those last few scenes will always comfort me in my misery, and give me strength to carry on. This last week had been very taxing and testing. I don't think I would have lived through the stress, the emotional strain, without the emotional strength from the last two months. Sometimes, I wonder if there isn't a grand plan, designing the circumstances of my life. I just wish it didn't have all the painful stuff, but like my favorite Garth Brooks song, The Dance...I'm glad I didn't know the painful end, because then I'd miss the dance. It's better to leave it all to chance...
Like I said, my fingers just flew over the keyboard by themselves, and I have no idea if anything comes out making sense or not.
I am just grateful, thankful that real people share my words, and sometimes validate my being.
Grazias :ghug: :^^) <^(
You're always really welcome Lance!! :^^) And we all understand you!!! ^f^
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We tend to be hard on lost causes, and when it comes to a love that went wrong, we're especially harsh. For years I could hardly stand to think about, or even remember, such a love that I went through. Since it failed catastrophically, everything about it seemed wrong in retrospect. All I clearly remembered were instances of deliberate cruelty, conflicts that spilled over into violence, and the constant misery of being unable to express or resolve our love, which was intense. When I first saw BBM, I saw the fact that all the negativity took up maybe one-half of one percent of the experience, most of which was as positive and fulfilling as anything can be. The movie also made me realize that neither I nor my partner could have done anything different than what we did. I had forgotten the context of the affair, the enormous forces that we had to contend with. I stopped blaming anyone and tried, for once, to understand what had happened. The movie somehow managed to "normalize" the experience, showing it as something that naturally happens to people.
Gradually I realized that the liberation from false guilt and shame, great as it was, did nothing to alter the outcome of the experience. What happened happened, no matter how I interpreted it or felt about it. At that point, the movie was no longer a source of consolation. Instead, it pounded home the terrible finality of destiny. Lost love would never come again. Nothing could ever mend that rupture. We would both die without ever seeing or hearing from one another again.
No doubt ideal love would never lead to such hell. It would manifest all sorts of divine attributes. However, I am stuck with the unshakable reality of what happened, and the best I can do is try to view it objectively, as it was, and try to understand it. Here's where the movie gave me a lasting benefit. It freed me from unnecessary guilt and blame, thereby giving me enough psychological energy to deal with the experience rationally, realistically, and I would even say spiritually. It's all I can do to deal with what happened, not what might have happened or should have happened.
Manolo
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Manolo, have read your post, and also Lance's, and will go very lightly, as these are sacred zones, the hurts of others. You spoke of "our
love" and that it was intense, so this must mean you were loved in return. I think one of the sources of great pain in our lives, is not that we
weren't loved, by family or friends or lovers, but that we weren't loved enough, or we, ourselves, didn't love enough, to not do wrong.
And then there's the human condition itself--we see evidence, every day, of the discardability of any human being--they're gone, life moves
on, and what the hell does that say about the so-called value of life, itself? And yet, we also see the opposite-the beauty and goodness in
other people. Religions that aren't cults speak of a war between good and evil, and we are in the battleground "where ignorant armies clash
by night...". And there are casualties as we are supposedly marching, or limping, towards some kind of redemption, where the pieces of the
puzzle will fit together and we will find that we were greatly loved and were meant to learn, somehow, to find a way to love each other.
But we all know about religion, don't we? Not always the consolation, expected--just mere words. I would never say to someone who harbors
pain-look to God, because usually someone has an agenda there--believe like them.
But I can repeat a gentle warning---there is a tugging at our thinking, when we've suffered, to build a construct of hopelessness and
defeatism. That construct, with or without any reference to God, takes on a life of its own, and creates new pain, like a factory.
Go on strike, if you can. Picket the factory. May not work (doesn't work too well for me), but at least--you didn't co-operate with that which
would steal from you (and I know am repeating myself)...your right to heal. Look for the good times, and maybe they will win out. Tony.
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[...]
No doubt ideal love would never lead to such hell. It would manifest all sorts of divine attributes. However, I am stuck with the unshakable reality of what happened, and the best I can do is try to view it objectively, as it was, and try to understand it. Here's where the movie gave me a lasting benefit. It freed me from unnecessary guilt and blame, thereby giving me enough psychological energy to deal with the experience rationally, realistically, and I would even say spiritually. It's all I can do to deal with what happened, not what might have happened or should have happened.
Manolo
Hi, Manolo, I am very sorry to hear of the painful experiences in your past. I also had love affairs after losing my friend, and they were never the same. Each person is different, and each relationship is unique. I can empathize with your feelings of frustration, regret, sadness, and loneliness, but I can never fully appreciate what unique experiences that relationship meant to you. I am truly sorry. To see your words, I bolded, on the screen, is to relive an episode in my own past, when I realized life is a journey, not a destination. The love lost, is but a moment in time, and it is not the end of the journey yet, but a marker of great loving memories. Life is not about the past, but the future, as you said, not what could've, should've, but what can be, what will be. Ennis looks forward to the day when he can spend eternity with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. As someone pointed out, losing a friend feels like a giant tree falling in a forest. It leaves behind a big empty space in our heart. I am thankful each and everyday that I can fill that space with love and support from this place, from family, from people who care. Building a fortress protects us from enemies, but also shut out friends. That is one of the many valuable lessons the movie taught me.
You are always welcome here, friend.
:ghug: :c) ^f^
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[...]
And then there's the human condition itself--we see evidence, every day, of the discardability of any human being--they're gone, life moves on, and what the hell does that say about the so-called value of life, itself? And yet, we also see the opposite-the beauty and goodness in
other people. Religions that aren't cults speak of a war between good and evil, and we are in the battleground "where ignorant armies clash by night...". And there are casualties as we are supposedly marching, or limping, towards some kind of redemption, where the pieces of the
puzzle will fit together and we will find that we were greatly loved and were meant to learn, somehow, to find a way to love each other.
But we all know about religion, don't we? Not always the consolation, expected--just mere words. I would never say to someone who harbors pain-look to God, because usually someone has an agenda there--believe like them.
[...] you didn't co-operate with that which would steal from you (and I know am repeating myself)...your right to heal. Look for the good times, and maybe they will win out. Tony.
Hi, Tony, you always bring fresh thoughts to my mind, and challenge me to new heights. Fact is, sometimes you hit so hard, I have to defend myself just to stay on my feet.
It may be better to start a new topic but fear of love and religion's role in healing are somewhat related, IMO.
You have mentioned more than once the "discardability" of human beings in the cruel world of relationships, in society. One of the most comforting part of my faith, which is neither Catholic nor Protestant, is simply being Christian, in that original meaning of the word, the follower of Christ.
In the early days of my world crashing to bits, I lost hope, lost faith, lost joy, lost fear, lost everything... Life had no meaning, because what gave it meaning was gone...no more. When a dear gay friend (actually my only gay friend) saw how devastated I was, he took me (actually more like pushed me, because I was too apathetic to care one way or another) to this church (not the same one he goes to, which is Catholic) but a non-denominational, grass-root type of church, with music being the major part of the service, with a very talented music director leading in the singing of the songs. I stopped going to church after high school, for one reason or another. The service blew me away. From the moment Amazing Grace started, to the many wonderful songs that spoke of love...How I love him because he first loved me...the tears began to flow and I was sobbing. I can never think back to those days without crying...after twenty seven years...the emotions remember.
Sorry for the rambling, but I am never coherent when I tell that part of my past. My point is that religion is not about agenda. When it IS about agenda, it is NOT religion. That's the best litmus test you can have. When someone asks you to join a church, any church, ask them if you can just observe, cool off for a while. If they really love you, they will let you go, and still care about you. If it is about their agenda, they will do anything to keep you there, to do what THEY want. It's as clear as night and day.
After the first moving services that opened my heart again, allowing me to grief so openly, without shame...I started reading the Bible again, like I did in high school, and read passages that I knew, but did not fully understand. The chapter in John 14...the Comforter...is what this forum is for me now, what that church for me was then. When I left Vancouver for career reasons, I knew I left a piece of my heart in that church, with the people in that church. I did not realize how badly I missed it, until I joined a fundamentalist church in a new city, more out of desperation, out of loneliness, and even thought it was possible to go straight, or at least celibate, just to fit in. Loneliness sometimes made me do really stupid things. To make a long story short, good intentions are not enough, where there is not love. True religion is like true love. There is no greater love than this, for a man to lay down his own life, for the life of his friend. When dogma is more important than compassion, when the bottom line is more important than the people, when...but I digress.
Truth is, true religion will always find a place in this cold cruel world, where people are discarded, discounted, discredited for one reason or another. True religion is the one place where anyone, is welcome, where anyone can find a home, where anyone will feel belong, where anyone will feel loved, without reservation, as is. True love and true religion are so intertwined in my mind that I cannot think of one, without thinking of the other. True love is meaningless without eternity, and eternity is meaningless without true love. Did I really just write that? Like I said, Tony, you challenge me to new territories, and new heights. I love you all, MG, tpe, et al for this very reason.
Fear of Love...like that old song that I just quoted, and remembered every day, like those two shirts...I love him because he first loved me...His loved conquered my fear... :\'( :\'( :\'(
Sorry, that's all for now.
:ghug: <^( :^^)
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My good friend, Lance, you said more in that post, than in most any you have ever written. I might, however, have been misunderstood.
I do agree that religion can play a central role in healing the casualties of fear of love. It's just that I felt it was not my place, in showing good
will to you and manolo, to assume any faith background.
When the invasion of Lebanon occurred, last year, the youth group at a local synagogue held a car-wash to raise funds for the many Arab
civilian victims, and they did this even with incoming rockets still pounding Israel. If you really love, sometimes you have to drop the extreme
differences, and just....help. I did not want to give any offense to either of you by presuming a faith background. Just wanted to show good will.
By the way, since "Amazing Grace" helped you heal, you might consider the music of these new radical monks, John Michael Talbot, for example.
Download "Be Not Afraid", and "I Will Lift You up on Eagles Wings" and see if you survive a new round of healing.
How far are we from the topic? Maybe too far, maybe dead on target. BBM has both opened wounds in us and healed them. Fear of love
may have been a central theme of this love story, but it is also a central theme in our lives. We aren't cardboard. We bleed. It should not
be wrong for us to at least mention the healing possible, even as our primary focus is the damage. You did well to cover that.
Meanwhile, am thinking over some of the many posts and may try a few, kind of footnote type ideas soon. And there seems to be some
ferment out there that shows up, unexpectedly, so, no telling where digging around in this topic area will lead. We're Brokies. Anything
could develop on this particular theme, or not much more at all. Again, Lance, you did well. Tony.
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No worries, Tony, if I misunderstood your post. I am glad I will be forgiven in this place if I had given offense rambling long and off topic. As I said in that last post, your words sometimes push me to explore new territories, finding places in myself that I hid from for many years. I haven't said anything from that post, ever, except to my therapist over fifteen years ago, and even then, it was only about the part on love ashamed and unable to grief, then finding the release in church. My experiences in the past two months had given me fresh perspective on life, and rehashing it again is good for my soul. I thank you for the push, and the recommended music. I love Josh Groban and his "You Raise Me Up", as well as his many others, "You Are Loved" etc.
I also appreciate your desire not to assume any faith background, to embrace the separation of church and state. I salute, respect, and applaud that fundamental principle of just society. However, I might have misunderstood you when you began to mix religion and Religion interchangeably without any distinction. To me, there is religion organized by men, susceptible to all the ills and sickness of men's follies, and then there is Religion born of love, from God. It is not necessarily any one dogma, one creed, one religion. It is simply the love of the creator for the beauty of the created. One reason why I mentioned John 14 was because in mentioning the Comforter, it also mentioned "in heaven there are many rooms". I choose to believe that a just and loving God would not care which denomination or religion we came from, as long as we love one another. I know that is contrary to conventional doctrine and verges on blasphemy but that's what I believe. Sorry that this is going way off topic, but you pushed, I responded, you replied, and we are here.
Reading what I wrote in that last post, I am amazed at how much hurt and pain I hid within. Sometimes, I just have to pretend everything is normal just to carry on, hiding everything within a wall. It helps a great deal to have this forum to vent, to release, to let go. It is probably why I love this place, why my fingers flew and dance all their own, waiting for the chance to emerge from their darkness. But sometimes, it is better to let old wounds heal, instead of digging up old stories.
I love Brokeback Mountain the movie because it is a gentle loving story that healed while it exposed the truth, that treaded gently and soothingly while presenting a dark side of society, as LJN pointed out, all the male figures in Jack's life belittled him, tore at him, discarded, discredited, disrespected, playing 'em stupid roles of dominant/submissive outside of the bedroom. Ooops, now I've done it. I'd get kicked off for sure...
Anyway, I think I will hide for a while...
Thanks for starting this thread, Tony, and even if we don't see eye-to-eye, or communicate on the same wavelength, we can still respect each other's opinions, however different they may be. Viva la difference!
:ghug: :c) <^( :^^)
My good friend, Lance, you said more in that post, than in most any you have ever written. I might, however, have been misunderstood.
I do agree that religion can play a central role in healing the casualties of fear of love. It's just that I felt it was not my place, in showing good
will to you and manolo, to assume any faith background.
When the invasion of Lebanon occurred, last year, the youth group at a local synagogue held a car-wash to raise funds for the many Arab
civilian victims, and they did this even with incoming rockets still pounding Israel. If you really love, sometimes you have to drop the extreme
differences, and just....help. I did not want to give any offense to either of you by presuming a faith background. Just wanted to show good will.
By the way, since "Amazing Grace" helped you heal, you might consider the music of these new radical monks, John Michael Talbot, for example.
Download "Be Not Afraid", and "I Will Lift You up on Eagles Wings" and see if you survive a new round of healing.
How far are we from the topic? Maybe too far, maybe dead on target. BBM has both opened wounds in us and healed them. Fear of love
may have been a central theme of this love story, but it is also a central theme in our lives. We aren't cardboard. We bleed. It should not
be wrong for us to at least mention the healing possible, even as our primary focus is the damage. You did well to cover that.
Meanwhile, am thinking over some of the many posts and may try a few, kind of footnote type ideas soon. And there seems to be some
ferment out there that shows up, unexpectedly, so, no telling where digging around in this topic area will lead. We're Brokies. Anything
could develop on this particular theme, or not much more at all. Again, Lance, you did well. Tony.
-
Someone wondered whether the great love of my life was one-sided or reciprocal. This brings up some interesting points. I remember a line from a play, though I don't remember which play, that went "There is no bliss like the bliss of unrequited love." That's a rather extreme formulation, but I don't think the really heavy pain of love comes from not being loved back. The really terrible pain comes when the love is largely mutual, as with Jack and Ennis. I don't imagine Jack suffered much over the rodeo clown who spurned him, except for momentary embarrassment. I've heard people say that the boys in BBM were lucky that their love was mutual. Maybe so, but there would have been no story and no movie if it hadn't been. I would have forgotten the great love of my life a long time ago had it been like the dozens of cases where I liked someone more than they could like me.
As for the spiritual side of life, I think we all reach a point at times when we realize that there must be something bigger, deeper, and more important behind the life we're living. Spiritual aspirations are probably hard-wired into our brains. In fact, I do have a spiritual practice, but it isn't designed to give me consolation. It's about renunciation and sacrifice. In fact, to adopt a serious spiritual practice seems to me to require amplifying one's suffering a great deal, certainly not reducing it any. I don't think anyone reading this is likely to agree with me, and that's okay. We've all been deeply touched by a powerful movie, and it's something well worth talking about. We can agree on that at least.
Manolo
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Someone wondered whether the great love of my life was one-sided or reciprocal. This brings up some interesting points. I remember a line from a play, though I don't remember which play, that went "There is no bliss like the bliss of unrequited love." That's a rather extreme formulation, but I don't think the really heavy pain of love comes from not being loved back. The really terrible pain comes when the love is largely mutual, as with Jack and Ennis. I don't imagine Jack suffered much over the rodeo clown who spurned him, except for momentary embarrassment. I've heard people say that the boys in BBM were lucky that their love was mutual. Maybe so, but there would have been no story and no movie if it hadn't been. I would have forgotten the great love of my life a long time ago had it been like the dozens of cases where I liked someone more than they could like me.
As for the spiritual side of life, I think we all reach a point at times when we realize that there must be something bigger, deeper, and more important behind the life we're living. Spiritual aspirations are probably hard-wired into our brains. In fact, I do have a spiritual practice, but it isn't designed to give me consolation. It's about renunciation and sacrifice. In fact, to adopt a serious spiritual practice seems to me to require amplifying one's suffering a great deal, certainly not reducing it any. I don't think anyone reading this is likely to agree with me, and that's okay. We've all been deeply touched by a powerful movie, and it's something well worth talking about. We can agree on that at least.
Manolo
Hi, Manolo,
I tried googling the line from the play but didn't get very far with minimum effort. It sounds like something Oscar Wilde may say, but I don't know for sure. I ain't no English Lit. major. :P I don't agree with that line, by the way. Jack's love for Ennis was at many different levels. One of these was the desire to live together on a ranch, living the sweet life. IMO, the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain was this unrequited love caused by the third person in this relationship, keeping Ennis from returning that love. Who is this third person? As LJN and Tony pointed out, the pink elephant is society. It stood in the way of Ennis loving Jack back the way he wanted to, in the form of his father's admonitions, in the form of the snide remarks from Aguirre, in the form of all the little homophobic utterances and systemic prejudices that kept our cowboys apart.
I agree with you that spirituality is in our biology, as evident by the many diverse cultures and societies that independently developed spiritual practices, sometimes with remarkably similar elements. Whatever the reasons, without getting off topic, one of which is certainly the role of healing in times of suffering.
I don't know if spirituality REQUIRES suffering, or if suffering amplifies the NEED for spirituality, or more likely, IMO, suffering opens our heart to the healing effects of a spiritual outlook. Many anecdotes exist where people of hard characters, non-spiritual to the core, would one day simply change totally, for whatever reason. I think it has to do with some inner suffering that opened the door to the heart, to the soul. Amazing Grace was written by a former slave trader, etc. I think Ennis at the point of breaking down, falling to his knees was also at this moment, when he faced the truth about his own feelings for Jack, their relationship together, and how they can carry on forward into the future. He was contemplating this over his apple pie in the diner, when Cassie walked in, happy as her usual self, and broke down in tears saying "Girls don't fall in love for fun." I will always feel a special connection with the expression on Ennis' face at that very moment as he watched the second person who loved him walking out of his life. With great suffering comes great awakening. IMO, Ennis woke up to the fact of Jack's love for him, and his love for Jack. It wasn't about fun, it was about two souls completing each other. I don't presume to judge what you had with the love of your life. Each relationship and each person is unique.
I hope you find the two shirts in your Brokeback Mountain, and live long in the loving memories of the love of your life. I know I am thankful that the movie and this forum have given to me what the two shirts have given Ennis - closure, hope, peace, and in a way, by looking forward into the future, joy and comfort, almost contentment as Ennis looked up into the heaven, but I think that will have to wait until I get to a Brokie meet.
:ghug: <^( :c) :^^)
I
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Did it mattered to Ennis that Alma loved him, or Cassie loved him? Did it make him feel obligated to each in some strange way? Did he feel short changed in some way in his marriage to Alma, and did he realize that through Cassie, that Jack might feel that he was looked at all those years as "fun".
What was it in Ennis that took the shirts for him to understand that he was loved, and loved all those years.
Did it go to his low self esteem, his feeling of unworthiness to be loved, or his pure fear of committing totally fully to a love which may cause, in his mind, his own death.
Not saying "I love you" is not surprising, these men said this every time they saw each other for twenty years just by being there like clock work. The problem comes in when you question the fact that you are worthy of this kind of devotion, and sacrifice, did Ennis feel worthy, but at the same time knew instinctively he couldn't live without Jack, so threatens him with death, it's easier to say, then " please give yourself only to me, and no one else", this means commitment.
There, to me anyway, an air of suspicion that plagued Ennis, there was already so many he lost in his life, that towards the end Alma, Jr. was all he had left, and finally was wise enough to understand this and grasp hold of it.
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Gradually I realized that the liberation from false guilt and shame, great as it was, did nothing to alter the outcome of the experience. What happened happened, no matter how I interpreted it or felt about it. At that point, the movie was no longer a source of consolation. Instead, it pounded home the terrible finality of destiny. Lost love would never come again. Nothing could ever mend that rupture. We would both die without ever seeing or hearing from one another again.
No doubt ideal love would never lead to such hell. It would manifest all sorts of divine attributes. However, I am stuck with the unshakable reality of what happened, and the best I can do is try to view it objectively, as it was, and try to understand it. Here's where the movie gave me a lasting benefit. It freed me from unnecessary guilt and blame, thereby giving me enough psychological energy to deal with the experience rationally, realistically, and I would even say spiritually. It's all I can do to deal with what happened, not what might have happened or should have happened.
Manolo
A wounded deer leaps highest,
I've heard the hunter tell;
'Tis but the ecstasy of death,
And then the brake is still.
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Did it mattered to Ennis that Alma loved him, or Cassie loved him? Did it make him feel obligated to each in some strange way? Did he feel short changed in some way in his marriage to Alma, and did he realize that through Cassie, that Jack might feel that he was looked at all those years as "fun".
What was it in Ennis that took the shirts for him to understand that he was loved, and loved all those years.
Did it go to his low self esteem, his feeling of unworthiness to be loved, or his pure fear of committing totally fully to a love which may cause, in his mind, his own death.
Not saying "I love you" is not surprising, these men said this every time they saw each other for twenty years just by being there like clock work. The problem comes in when you question the fact that you are worthy of this kind of devotion, and sacrifice, did Ennis feel worthy, but at the same time knew instinctively he couldn't live without Jack, so threatens him with death, it's easier to say, then " please give yourself only to me, and no one else", this means commitment.
There, to me anyway, an air of suspicion that plagued Ennis, there was already so many he lost in his life, that towards the end Alma, Jr. was all he had left, and finally was wise enough to understand this and grasp hold of it.
I think you answered you own question, MG. Ennis felt unworthy of the kind of commitment, devotion that Jack was asking, and was afraid to give in to Jack, knowing that he would give in totally, without holding back. That's the kind of person Ennis is, all or nothing. I think the shirts were merely milestones or the tangible physical reminder to Ennis, that Jack kept this for twenty years, that Jack loved him from the beginning, even after that punch. Ennis thought Jack only came back because he was unhappy with Lureen's old man, only came to visit and have some fun, like they used to. He did not realize how much Jack missed him, even when he was dancing with Lureen that first dance, he was reminded of Ennis. All Ennis knew was that for four years, Jack carried on with life without him. Even though he came back, and with some kind of explanation, it still wasn't enough to convince him that Jack "loved" him. Ennis didn't know what love was, not Jack, not Cassie. As someone pointed out, Ennis having never experienced much love in his life, didn't recognize it until too late. His expression as Cassie walked out the diner, was remarkably similar to the one he had when he found the shirts. I don't know if Heath did this on purpose, or Ang Lee asked for it, but what ever the reason, that expression of recognition, of shocking discovery, is the one that always haunt me into sobbing uncontrollably. Now that I understand it, I can see why it has such an impact on me, and perhaps the last remainder of the movie that puts me to tears will lose its power, NOT. I will let you know next week.
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Was fiddling around on another thread about the meaning of Ennis' last words, and that got me to thinking about the title of the topic here-
"Fear of Love...." and especially the word "fear". Sometimes there's another word closely tied into the word you have used, and even though
they don't mean the same thing, they're connected. The word am thinking of is---risk. Sometimes you fear something because of the risk
involved.
If we go there, we might see more about the two lovers, as in, Ennis was not much of a risk-taker, but Jack was. Jack was a rodeo cowboy,
which is very risky. He was forward with people-also risky. And he was willing to take the risk of moving around, to Signal, to Texas, or even
to Mexico.
Ennis, on the other hand, wouldn't risk giving up the bird in the hand (Alma), based on a summer affair with Jack, wouldn't try for the power
plant job, wouldn't risk his heart to Cassie, and darned sure wasn't going to risk moving away from where he had lived for so long.
For Ennis to take risks, he had to get all fired up, and then he WOULD risk---a lot. Fighting the two bikers was a risk, but he was angry.
Probably the biggest risk he ever took was going to the tent on the second night, for that wasn't fear of love, that was taking a risk that he
would not be understood, or that he could not handle his own feelings.
Which leads me that enduring question, what if Jack had not died? How would he have responded to the meltdown of their previous encounter,
by brushing off Jack's complaint, or moving to compromise, to a happier ending? And there the two separate areas converge again...fear of love,
meaning, can you finally accept the fullness of the love, and fear of risk----could it work out? I'd like to think his emotional breakdown (and it
was huge) laid the groundwork for Ennis finally taking a further risk. Based on-he had to get fired up, to do something.
Would like to think that was a complete emotional breakdown (sure looked like one to me) and though Annie has him returning to his same old
self right away, the film suggests more. I'd like to think the film had him already there- not afrain of love, anymore, and willing to take a risk
and willing, that next time they were to meet, he knew full well, he had to have a better answer for Jack. I think he'd changed, but, that's
something we are all going to see differently, I guess.
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"Fear of Love...." and especially the word "fear". Sometimes there's another word closely tied into the word you have used, and even though they don't mean the same thing, they're connected. The word am thinking of is---risk. Sometimes you fear something because of the risk involved.
If we go there, we might see more about the two lovers, as in, Ennis was not much of a risk-taker, but Jack was. Jack was a rodeo cowboy,
which is very risky. He was forward with people-also risky. And he was willing to take the risk of moving around, to Signal, to Texas, or even
to Mexico.
For Ennis to take risks, he had to get all fired up, and then he WOULD risk---a lot. Fighting the two bikers was a risk, but he was angry.
Probably the biggest risk he ever took was going to the tent on the second night, for that wasn't fear of love, that was taking a risk that he would not be understood, or that he could not handle his own feelings.
I think that you are correct about the risk thing ..
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I think that you are correct about the risk thing ..
I second. I think Welshwitch also made a similar comment somehwere about how each one differed in the element of risk. Ennis' "fear" was probably tempered by a healthy dose of caution -- something that probably made Jack's behavior seem reckless or foolhardy to him.
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I second. I think Welshwitch also made a similar comment somehwere about how each one differed in the element of risk. Ennis' "fear" was probably tempered by a healthy dose of caution -- something that probably made Jack's behavior seem reckless or foolhardy to him.
Yes, and that is what appeals to each other in their relationship. Ennis looking with admiration as Jack ride the mare, like a rodeo cowboy would, taking unnecessary risks. Jack following Ennis' lead in setting up camp, doing all the cowboy stuff, having some stability in his roving life around the plains. They love this opposite about each other, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the relationship. Jack had to learn to be more cautious, and Ennis had to learn to take more risks.
Unfortunately, Jack took too much risk in Mexico or with Randall or whereever he got the tire iron, and Ennis took too little risk, to dream and live the sweet life.
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Yes, and that is what appeals to each other in their relationship. Ennis looking with admiration as Jack ride the mare, like a rodeo cowboy would, taking unnecessary risks. Jack following Ennis' lead in setting up camp, doing all the cowboy stuff, having some stability in his roving life around the plains. They love this opposite about each other, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the relationship. Jack had to learn to be more cautious, and Ennis had to learn to take more risks.
Unfortunately, Jack took too much risk in Mexico or with Randall or whereever he got the tire iron, and Ennis took too little risk, to dream and live the sweet life.
Indeed. Fear is not always a bad thing, no? Even fear of love, perhaps, if that love becomes self-destructive.
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Have been wallowing around in the other threads, and, boy, are they getting good. At any rate, thanks to hpv, tpe, and Lance for seeing
the connection between love and risk.
But, at the risk of being simplistic, is there any consensus on the fight on the mountain, itself? You should, I would hope, admit there was
very little warning, and if you could warp back to your first viewing, it did not make much sense.
Here, I've suggested that Ennis was brooding on that hill not only over the affair being cut short, but because Jack was inadvertently giving
out the wrong signals and therefore provoking rage. Still believe that was the trigger to horseplay turning ugly, but I wonder if Ennis might not
also have been fighting off---his love itself. Trying to externalize the threat from within. It's not much, but I was wondering if we could come
to a reasonably sturdy understanding of that fight. If not as resentment that Jack didn't seem to be suffering much, then as a metaphor made
real of the fear of love within Ennis? What other reasons for the fight emerging, if not somewhere in these two? Is it wrong to try for a
general consensus, absent any other theories? Are there any? Very small issue, maybe, but leads out from there to all the rest.
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Trying to convince himself it was Aguirre pulling them off the mountain before they were suppose to go, that it wasn't right, and Jack's offer of a loan added to his hurt. When it was being pulled away from Jack, and the realization of this was building inside him, the time of feeling like "king of the world", was ending. It's hard to expect Ennis to process all that was going on inside him.
The play fight scene is a perfect example of what happens when his inability to process what going on in his mind turns to rage. Jack changed him, and he was happy, it's over. The planned marriage, the planned next logical step in Ennis planned life was taking over. The rage emerged. Ennis desire for Jack sexually, and emotionally in his mind were being ripped away, and Jack was the victim of his rage, Ennis wanted to make love to him, but he hurt him instead, the only way he knew how to handle the inevitable.
I don't think anything Jack could have said or done at that moment would have changed anything, Ennis's rage would have taken over. Even if Jack could have said a word of comfort, a touch on the shoulder, Ennis still would have struck him down.
My take anyway.
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Have been wallowing around in the other threads, and, boy, are they getting good. At any rate, thanks to hpv, tpe, and Lance for seeing
the connection between love and risk.
But, at the risk of being simplistic, is there any consensus on the fight on the mountain, itself? You should, I would hope, admit there was
very little warning, and if you could warp back to your first viewing, it did not make much sense.
Here, I've suggested that Ennis was brooding on that hill not only over the affair being cut short, but because Jack was inadvertently giving
out the wrong signals and therefore provoking rage. Still believe that was the trigger to horseplay turning ugly, but I wonder if Ennis might not
also have been fighting off---his love itself. Trying to externalize the threat from within. It's not much, but I was wondering if we could come
to a reasonably sturdy understanding of that fight. If not as resentment that Jack didn't seem to be suffering much, then as a metaphor made
real of the fear of love within Ennis? What other reasons for the fight emerging, if not somewhere in these two? Is it wrong to try for a
general consensus, absent any other theories? Are there any? Very small issue, maybe, but leads out from there to all the rest.
I think the fight scene is very connected with the thme of the fear to love openly. I think that in this scene, Jack was trying to openly express affection, in a playful manner, such as lovers often do. But Ennis would have none of it -- he was afraid to acknowledge openly how he truly felt.
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I think the fight scene is very connected with the thme of the fear to love openly. I think that in this scene, Jack was trying to openly express affection, in a playful manner, such as lovers often do. But Ennis would have none of it -- he was afraid to acknowledge openly how he truly felt.
All the discussion of of Ennis's fear of loving Jack openly,and his reluctant way off leaving the mountain, that lead to the fight in the first place,reminded me of a line from the short story :
"As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall. "
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Thanks for the replies. Tpe seems to be thinking along the lines I was, but Manhattangirl and hpv suggested more going on, so, my trying for
a final definition can't be supported, and probably, there shouldn't be one---that steals from the continuing energy force from the movie.
Am now going to move into a new and controversial zone with regard to fear of love, as in---what KIND of love? There can be conflicts there.
As "a force of nature", love is generic--the bonding of two people usually, but sometimes an outward force towards many people. But between
two people---what specific KIND of love?
In telling the story of the hillbilly lad, in an earlier post, more came back to me in my memory of those days. In fact, before the disasters hit,
his falling out of a tree and getting mangled, and my parents suddenly ill, he was beginning to make his move, and I sensed that within a few weeks,
he would, as winter was heading in, be making shy overtures to come in from the cold and be with another human being.
Problem. Huge problem. His age. Owing to the fact that he was, in fact, someone who had been alone in the woods for so long, and also not
socially interacting, I could not tell, even up close, if he was 15 y.o., or maybe even 22 y.o. Nor could anyone else. I also knew I had strong
empathy for him and was willing to make a commitment. But, if he was 15, my impulses were fatherly, and there was no chance I could breach
the line and see him sexually. Yet...if he was 22, he sure looked like he needed some snugglebunnies, some loving, and if he had made a move
there, I was vulnerable as he was attractive. I DO remember beginning the process of drawing lines in my mind---away from physical
companionship towards taking on the responsibility, of being a transitional father until he got integrated into society and moved on. So, what KIND
of love? I remember that dilemma approaching.
And this dilemma, I have begun to believe, was there for Ennis. His relationship with Jack was multi-dimensional, and Annie has it right there,
easy to see-a friendship love, at first. Overwhelming, because of his loneliness. Moved to a sexual relationship. Then to romantic/sexual/erotic
in SNIT. But he could never use the "L" word, so he was afraid of the ultimate--romantic/emotional. And that last type can survive anything,
even the aging process and loss of physical attractions.
Much har-de-har-har over Ennis referring to their meetings as fishing trips. Anyone ever stop to think, some part of him DID see it that way?
Two guys, male tribal companionship? Sexual intercourse would have been 1% of their time spent together.
So-I had fear, or puzzlement over what KIND of love could develop as that hillbilly began to make his move. I could handle either, but they are
very separate areas of the mind and I remember opting for safety, for ethical reasons. Re-programming my mind.
Did Ennis have this additional dilemma? I think he did. He wanted friendship first and foremost, of the deepest kind. The others, he also needed
but fought. There are different kinds of love, and, if I can make this one contribution to understanding Ennis, it would be that he was having
trouble untangling them, and would juggle them, and did fear, greatly, that one strand---the romantic/emotional.
I went into a difficult area. I hope it isn't too troubling. What KIND of love should there be? And Ennis didn't know how to resolve that.
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:h) I'm new here
I think that Ennis knew that Jack loved him before he found out about the shirts, but he didn't knew that he loved him so much as he actually did. and Ennis loved Jack even tho we didn't hear him say that in the movie and Jack knew that too.
I just feel really bad about that they were afraid (most Ennis) about showing their feelings in public :\'(. If two people love one another (gay or straight) just let them be happy with the person they are with <^(
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:h) I'm new here
I think that Ennis knew that Jack loved him before he found out about the shirts, but he didn't knew that he loved him so much as he actually did. and Ennis loved Jack even tho we didn't hear him say that in the movie and Jack knew that too.
I just feel really bad about that they were afraid (most Ennis) about showing their feelings in public :\'(. If two people love one another (gay or straight) just let them be happy with the person they are with <^(
Welcome Emzan. :)
I agree. I think there was a part of Ennis that supressed his true feelings deep down. And as Tony said, the love was multi-dimensional, or multi-level. Ennis wasn't conscious of all the ramifications.
hpv's quote puts everything into perspective though: no matter what level Ennis was currently working on, it was a sure, inevitable fall.
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I've tried to read all the posts in this thread during last week, but I haven't managed to be updated...so excuse me if I repeat any argument used before. Anyway, I'll still try to read everything here since I find this thread very interesting, it's my fav topic I guess.
About these last posts, I agree love is multilevel, as we human beings are. There's a part of our personalities which is all we really are, what we feel, want, love, need, desire...then there's another part of ourselves which is all the cultural 'regulations' like...what is good and bad, acceptable or not, prejudices, taboos etc. Both levels are necessary parts of ourselves, and must be 'balanced', for instance, we can do what we want but we know we must not kill to get it. Sorry for this long introduction, a bit of Freud, excuse me ~)
In Ennis case, there wasn't a balance. His prejudices were so strong that not only predominate, but almost deleted his true being. In other words, Ennis was settled in his prejudices so much, that he was convinced ONLY that was himself, denying at a very deep level, all the things he didn’t like, like his love for Jack and Jack’s love for him.
It’s very possible being settled in that position a whole life. Ennis was for 20 years (during his relationship with Jack and even before). Losing Jack was such a big shock that his personality, the one he’d always thought he was, stumbled and fell: During so many years that repressed part it grew up in the shadow like woodworms inside a wooden structure. Jack’s death pulled everything down. That was when he became aware of everything he’d always knew: they loved each other :\'(
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Hi, Emzan, and welcome to the forum! Ayashae, it still is so very strange, that neither knew how much they were loved. So, I've got a dumb
question.....what would have happened if Ennis had at least visited Lightning Flat, just once, in all those years? Would Jack have hid the shirts,
or was he always waiting and hoping for that visit, so that there could be a non-verbal statement to Ennis? Makes you wonder......
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Thanks for the replies. Tpe seems to be thinking along the lines I was, but Manhattangirl and hpv suggested more going on, so, my trying for
a final definition can't be supported, and probably, there shouldn't be one---that steals from the continuing energy force from the movie.
Am now going to move into a new and controversial zone with regard to fear of love, as in---what KIND of love? There can be conflicts there.
As "a force of nature", love is generic--the bonding of two people usually, but sometimes an outward force towards many people. But between
two people---what specific KIND of love?
In telling the story of the hillbilly lad, in an earlier post, more came back to me in my memory of those days. In fact, before the disasters hit,
his falling out of a tree and getting mangled, and my parents suddenly ill, he was beginning to make his move, and I sensed that within a few weeks,
he would, as winter was heading in, be making shy overtures to come in from the cold and be with another human being.
Problem. Huge problem. His age. Owing to the fact that he was, in fact, someone who had been alone in the woods for so long, and also not
socially interacting, I could not tell, even up close, if he was 15 y.o., or maybe even 22 y.o. Nor could anyone else. I also knew I had strong
empathy for him and was willing to make a commitment. But, if he was 15, my impulses were fatherly, and there was no chance I could breach
the line and see him sexually. Yet...if he was 22, he sure looked like he needed some snugglebunnies, some loving, and if he had made a move
there, I was vulnerable as he was attractive. I DO remember beginning the process of drawing lines in my mind---away from physical
companionship towards taking on the responsibility, of being a transitional father until he got integrated into society and moved on. So, what KIND
of love? I remember that dilemma approaching.
And this dilemma, I have begun to believe, was there for Ennis. His relationship with Jack was multi-dimensional, and Annie has it right there,
easy to see-a friendship love, at first. Overwhelming, because of his loneliness. Moved to a sexual relationship. Then to romantic/sexual/erotic
in SNIT. But he could never use the "L" word, so he was afraid of the ultimate--romantic/emotional. And that last type can survive anything,
even the aging process and loss of physical attractions.
Much har-de-har-har over Ennis referring to their meetings as fishing trips. Anyone ever stop to think, some part of him DID see it that way?
Two guys, male tribal companionship? Sexual intercourse would have been 1% of their time spent together.
So-I had fear, or puzzlement over what KIND of love could develop as that hillbilly began to make his move. I could handle either, but they are
very separate areas of the mind and I remember opting for safety, for ethical reasons. Re-programming my mind.
Did Ennis have this additional dilemma? I think he did. He wanted friendship first and foremost, of the deepest kind. The others, he also needed
but fought. There are different kinds of love, and, if I can make this one contribution to understanding Ennis, it would be that he was having
trouble untangling them, and would juggle them, and did fear, greatly, that one strand---the romantic/emotional.
I went into a difficult area. I hope it isn't too troubling. What KIND of love should there be? And Ennis didn't know how to resolve that.
You talk of Ennis as if he may have been a "victim". He wanted one thing, friendship love, but could be a victim of the romantic/emotional. Unwilling, unwanted, but made to feel these things as if against his nature, so he try to fight it. Then we have to view Jack as an enabler of his weakness, the romantic and emotional.
Wouldn't change the meaning of everything?
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Hi, Manhattangirl----I plead guilty to a long post, not guilty to saying Ennis was seduced by Jack to what he did not need or want.
He was most comfortable. IMO, with a friendship love, but he ached for the other levels of love and both needed and feared them. That is in
the post you quoted, if you check closely. You do keep me on my toes, though. Should have been more clear. Hope we're on the same page
now. Tony.
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I've tried to read all the posts in this thread during last week, but I haven't managed to be updated...so excuse me if I repeat any argument used before. Anyway, I'll still try to read everything here since I find this thread very interesting, it's my fav topic I guess.
About these last posts, I agree love is multilevel, as we human beings are. There's a part of our personalities which is all we really are, what we feel, want, love, need, desire...then there's another part of ourselves which is all the cultural 'regulations' like...what is good and bad, acceptable or not, prejudices, taboos etc. Both levels are necessary parts of ourselves, and must be 'balanced', for instance, we can do what we want but we know we must not kill to get it. Sorry for this long introduction, a bit of Freud, excuse me ~)
In Ennis case, there wasn't a balance. His prejudices were so strong that not only predominate, but almost deleted his true being. In other words, Ennis was settled in his prejudices so much, that he was convinced ONLY that was himself, denying at a very deep level, all the things he didn’t like, like his love for Jack and Jack’s love for him.
It’s very possible being settled in that position a whole life. Ennis was for 20 years (during his relationship with Jack and even before). Losing Jack was such a big shock that his personality, the one he’d always thought he was, stumbled and fell: During so many years that repressed part it grew up in the shadow like woodworms inside a wooden structure. Jack’s death pulled everything down. That was when he became aware of everything he’d always knew: they loved each other :\'(
Thanks, Ayashae, this makes a lot of sense to me, in terms of the true Ennis being held hostage by the prejudices of society and culture. With other people, after a loved one's death, their real self fall apart and get into depression etc. With Ennis, his self was an artificial one created by society, a front that is bound by chains and prejudices. When Jack died, those chains fell away, his real self became liberated.
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You talk of Ennis as if he may have been a "victim". He wanted one thing, friendship love, but could be a victim of the romantic/emotional. Unwilling, unwanted, but made to feel these things as if against his nature, so he try to fight it. Then we have to view Jack as an enabler of his weakness, the romantic and emotional.
Wouldn't change the meaning of everything?
I can't imagine Ennis being a victim of anything. He may be susceptible to romantic seduction, but he knew his self enough to stay his ground when Jack wanted more, wanted to live together. Victims are made to feel powerless. Ennis may feel he cannot change the world or had little influence in the world, but he is always powerful in his own world, which is the ranch. Alma really had to pull out all the stops to get Ennis to move. And he made her pay when he took her from behind.
You raise an interesting point about Jack the enabler of romantic and emotional lonesome men. If that's what enablers do, then please send them my way. I'd love to be enabled in my romantic emotional weaknesses. :c) ;) :^^) ^f^
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Tony,
I keep you on your toes, well my friend, you frighten me sometimes, because I don't where you'll take me.
The other levels of love, the need and the fear, isn't this true of all of us. Some of us start on that level friendship, than it turns into something else. We may not know how to deal with it. We fear rejection if does move to another level. We fear ourselves because it becomes so overwhelming, that we can hardly breathe. We start to think in logical terms of why it wouldn't work, and how it could mess up everything in our neat little lives. Than we succumb to it, taking risks, opening ourselves to the one we love, and confess short of making total fools of ourselves, that we do have more to offer the other person.
Did Ennis fall short of this, is this your premise? Please help me to understand. Because for me he did.
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You raise an interesting point about Jack the enabler of romantic and emotional lonesome men. If that's what enablers do, then please send them my way. I'd love to be enabled in my romantic emotional weaknesses. :c) ;) :^^) ^f^
What you wrote made me think of Randall.
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I've tried to read all the posts in this thread during last week, but I haven't managed to be updated...so excuse me if I repeat any argument used before. Anyway, I'll still try to read everything here since I find this thread very interesting, it's my fav topic I guess.
About these last posts, I agree love is multilevel, as we human beings are. There's a part of our personalities which is all we really are, what we feel, want, love, need, desire...then there's another part of ourselves which is all the cultural 'regulations' like...what is good and bad, acceptable or not, prejudices, taboos etc. Both levels are necessary parts of ourselves, and must be 'balanced', for instance, we can do what we want but we know we must not kill to get it. Sorry for this long introduction, a bit of Freud, excuse me ~)
In Ennis case, there wasn't a balance. His prejudices were so strong that not only predominate, but almost deleted his true being. In other words, Ennis was settled in his prejudices so much, that he was convinced ONLY that was himself, denying at a very deep level, all the things he didn’t like, like his love for Jack and Jack’s love for him.
It’s very possible being settled in that position a whole life. Ennis was for 20 years (during his relationship with Jack and even before). Losing Jack was such a big shock that his personality, the one he’d always thought he was, stumbled and fell: During so many years that repressed part it grew up in the shadow like woodworms inside a wooden structure. Jack’s death pulled everything down. That was when he became aware of everything he’d always knew: they loved each other :\'(
Ther is something to be said about being too comfortable with one's own fears and prejudices, no? In the case of Ennis, perhaps he was too "at home" with his own innate fears. As others are won't to say, we become enamoured with our own failings/shortcomings to really see them for what they are and thereby move on from there.
Jack's death was in some sense a culmination or fulfillment of all his fears, but it also served as a kind of katharsis. That death made him realize what he had and what he had lost in the grand sceme of things. It may have been too late for a life of love with Jack, but it did open Ennis's eyes to the depth of that love.
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Manhattangirl, I've never frightened anybody before in my entire life. Annoyed the hell out of them, but nobody ever looked me over and
saw anything to fear. Except, if something I said challenged a toxic foundation ruling their life. Ran into a lot of that back in my days in the local
bars. But one gal had a term for that: "Tony's on his bandstand". That was when I would change from being happy-go-lucky to raging against
a cruelty of some kind. Actually stood on the pool table, several times, doing this, to the great amusement of some and the growls of others.
It looks to me like the middle paragraph of your post is what we all seem to see, that Ennis feared rejection if he told Jack of the depth of his
love and feared the adjustments in his life, if he admitted it to himself. You also, am guessing here, seem to have reached the point where
you can see this in all of us, so that Ennis IS all of us, only much more visible and identifiable. That's what I've meant by saying, yes, the
homophobia issue is there and always will be, but the fears inherent in loving anyone make the film historic and enduring.
Any tensions in your thinking, then, are, or would be, your moving past issues that are important to you--intolerance and homophobia--to
giving real equality to their love story, that it isn't just about gay issues, it's about everybody and all of our fears. If you let that tension
be creative, you have the gift of seeing the movie on those two different levels, using each one as you see fit, where that helps.
Tpe's post opened up a very great deal, particularly about being comfortable with one's fears. And almost (although he didn't say this),
being self-proving, causing the final result. His post, no pun intended, causes fear in me, because it looks to be dangerously true.
Lance--where'd you go--Finland?
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Hi, Emzan, and welcome to the forum! Ayashae, it still is so very strange, that neither knew how much they were loved. So, I've got a dumb
question.....what would have happened if Ennis had at least visited Lightning Flat, just once, in all those years? Would Jack have hid the shirts,
or was he always waiting and hoping for that visit, so that there could be a non-verbal statement to Ennis? Makes you wonder...
Not a dumb question at all Tony...it's very interesting like this thread your started :) In my opinion, it would have been very unlikely that Ennis would visit Lightning Flat in all those years, since he was always skipping any kind of emotional commitment with Jack. But if it had done, those shirts wouldn't have been as meaningful as they were after Jack's death. The shirts are as important as the moment he found them; (as their love was always there, but Ennis was only aware of it when he was ready to accept it)
Ennis is shocked emotionally and his repressed side is showing for the 1st time or at least the 1st time in such an intense way, he’s starting to accept it and to understand it so…he’s able to visit Jack’s parents despite his fears, he accepts going into Jack’s bedroom, into his intimacy, ready to ‘meet’ the child Jack was. And there he finds the shirts. We all agree it’s such a powerful symbol: we have watched the whole movie, and we’re sensitive in front of it, we deeply empathise with Ennis (after all we’re in this forum for a reason! :) ) And Ennis understands that symbol too, because his circumstances and the transformation he’s suffering. In that sense, the shirts are the ‘drop that makes the cup filled to the brim’ (hope you understand this expression, I couldn’t find better words)
In my opinion, Ennis must have seen meaningful gestures from Jack during those 20 years, maybe as powerful as the shirts, but Jack’s love didn’t fit in Ennis’ patterns so he couldn’t understand them, accept them or interpret them in the right way. If he had found the shirts in other circumstances, it’d have happened the same. Just my opinion anyway.
As regards Jack…I think he wouldn’t have hidden the shirts. As I see him, I think he totally understood and respected Ennis and his fears, always; but at the same time, he tried to let Ennis know what he was feeling. That’s why I’m convinced he gave him a lot of meaningful but subtle clues, like the shirts themselves. On the other hand, I think he knows Ennis loves him, but knows he’s unable to understand what’s actually going on, or even to show affection. Probably that makes him love Ennis even more. Of course, Jack must have had doubts about Ennis feelings and felt confused about his behaviours and words. Jack is patient and understanding, but he’s human too. I must finish this post here since my eyes are wet and I’m at the office.
Excuse me that I tend to ramble and use too many words to explain my ideas…
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Ayashae, that was a good and thoughtful venture into the what if....Ennis had gone to Lightning Flat. All we have to work with are the glimpses
here and there, of their 20 years of meeting when they could.
Was thinking, tonight, how they really remained discardable males all their lives, not just in their youth. Not even an ol' boy network to sustain
them. And I guess if you know you are discardable, it makes you wary of revealing how dependent you are on the one you really love. Rejected
there, you wouldn't have anything left. That's why am sympathetic to the failures in communication and don't blame either of them for the
outcome. It's good to look over the failures, to try to understand better, but never to the point of harsh judgment. That's an interesting
characteristic of Brokies--we know their faults, those two, and still keep loving them. Sorry- am moody tonight. Went out to the mall, and
saw something beautiful-a father with a mentally handicapped son, and they just broke my heart--a good family with great love, something our
two heroes never had. No family, no friends----what did Ennis say? When you ain't got nothing, you don't need nothing. That was there in
him, somehow, long before he met Jack, and even for 20 years after. He had trouble believing there really was something, at long last.
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What you wrote made me think of Randall.
??? :( What?! Me? Randall? ??? Please! %&) (t)
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??? :( What?! Me? Randall? ??? Please! %&) (t)
No silly, of course not. I see Jack in you, don't be upset with me. But Jack had something about him, that drew Randall to him, a vulnerability? In the same respect Jack sense a hint of danger, and was himself attracted to Randall. Why was Jack so uncomfortable in the situation?
I think also this what contributed to Jack's restlessness with Ennis. Jack's confession of how he missed Ennis, and the final confrontation, when Jack finally pushed the issue of their relationship.
Not saying outright what was going on with him, Jack was telling Ennis in a way, "it getting tough out there, and I'm trying to hold on to what we have." But he's wondering what do we have?
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No silly, of course not. I see Jack in you, don't be upset with me. But Jack had something about him, that drew Randall to him, a vulnerability? In the same respect Jack sense a hint of danger, and was himself attracted to Randall. Why was Jack so uncomfortable in the situation?
I think also this what contributed to Jack's restlessness with Ennis. Jack's confession of how he missed Ennis, and the final confrontation, when Jack finally pushed the issue of their relationship.
Not saying outright what was going on with him, Jack was telling Ennis in a way, "it getting tough out there, and I'm trying to hold on to what we have." But he's wondering what do we have?
manhattangirl, I can NEVER be upset with you. I was just shocked to think I reminded you of Randall. And I don't understand the reference to Jack, either, though I am flattered. Someone else mentioned my being like Jack, but I really see myself closer to Ennis...anyway.
Yes, I share your view that Randall sensed the lonely vulnerability in Jack during the dance, and exploited it when Jack kept talking to him afterwards. I don't think Randall really liked Jack, except as an amusement to play him for kicks. It's why I really dislike the character. He was a predator. And Jack sensed this, and was for once, the prey himself. All his life, as others put it, Jack was put down and "pissed on" by other men, then this vet with university pedigree come calling, he knew he was vulnerable, and also saw Randall's insincerity. The who "you know" story about the cabin etc was so disingenuous that Jack the people-smart person must have saw through that. Yet, he allowed himself to be sucked into it because he was lonely and desperate.
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...I don't imagine Jack suffered much over the rodeo clown who spurned him, except for momentary embarrassment. I've heard people say that the boys in BBM were lucky that their love was mutual. Maybe so, but there would have been no story and no movie if it hadn't been. I would have forgotten the great love of my life a long time ago had it been like the dozens of cases where I liked someone more than they could like me.
Spoken with true wisdom. O0
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I was wondering if it was fear of being found out, as much as if one love the other, Jack had questions and so did Ennis. The final confrontation was like an affirmation of love one for the other, as painful as it was. But both still had the questions, the fear of each other was also for me a part of it.
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I was wondering if it was fear of being found out, as much as if one love the other, Jack had questions and so did Ennis. The final confrontation was like an affirmation of love one for the other, as painful as it was. But both still had the questions, the fear of each other was also for me a part of it.
For once I have to respectfully disagree with you, manhattangirl. The final confrontation was, to me, a repudiation of love...first it was Jack accusing Ennis not wanting to spend time, not making an effort to spend more time together. Then it was Ennis accusing Jack's unfaithfulness, confirmed by his own confession. And finally, when Jack said, "I did once." Ennis interpreted that as meaning, "I no longer" when in fact, Jack simply meant it as "I did once upon a time, but you rejected me." At that final misunderstanding, Ennis broke down and thought the world ended with Jack no longer loving him. He was no one, He was no where. And when Jack tried to comfort him, as he did their last day on brokeback mountain, speaking of parallel scenes, just after the bloody nose. The only difference here, is that Jack managed to hold on to Ennis, and Ennis was too broken up to throw a sucker punch at Jack. As someone mentioned, Ennis was surrendering to Jack. Unfortunately as often the case with these two, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Just Jack unilaterally taking action, as usual.
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For once I have to respectfully disagree with you, manhattangirl. The final confrontation was, to me, a repudiation of love...first it was Jack accusing Ennis not wanting to spend time, not making an effort to spend more time together. Then it was Ennis accusing Jack's unfaithfulness, confirmed by his own confession. And finally, when Jack said, "I did once." Ennis interpreted that as meaning, "I no longer" when in fact, Jack simply meant it as "I did once upon a time, but you rejected me." At that final misunderstanding, Ennis broke down and thought the world ended with Jack no longer loving him. He was no one, He was no where. And when Jack tried to comfort him, as he did their last day on brokeback mountain, speaking of parallel scenes, just after the bloody nose. The only difference here, is that Jack managed to hold on to Ennis, and Ennis was too broken up to throw a sucker punch at Jack. As someone mentioned, Ennis was surrendering to Jack. Unfortunately as often the case with these two, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Just Jack unilaterally taking action, as usual.
*o) Huh, sorry Andrew....but I thought Jack with that affirmation was refering to Mexico. I mean, Ennis was rejecting Jack again, like in the divorce scene, and then Ennis asked Jack if he has a better idea, and Jack, for me, said "I did once" thinking about that time when he was so broken like now and decided to go to Mexico. And because of that Ennis in this very moment asked him about Mexico, 'cause he noticed the sarcastic tone in Jack's voice.
Well, I don't know...What a mess!!! :-\\
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For once I have to respectfully disagree with you, manhattangirl. The final confrontation was, to me, a repudiation of love...first it was Jack accusing Ennis not wanting to spend time, not making an effort to spend more time together. Then it was Ennis accusing Jack's unfaithfulness, confirmed by his own confession. And finally, when Jack said, "I did once." Ennis interpreted that as meaning, "I no longer" when in fact, Jack simply meant it as "I did once upon a time, but you rejected me." At that final misunderstanding, Ennis broke down and thought the world ended with Jack no longer loving him. He was no one, He was no where. And when Jack tried to comfort him, as he did their last day on brokeback mountain, speaking of parallel scenes, just after the bloody nose. The only difference here, is that Jack managed to hold on to Ennis, and Ennis was too broken up to throw a sucker punch at Jack. As someone mentioned, Ennis was surrendering to Jack. Unfortunately as often the case with these two, nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Just Jack unilaterally taking action, as usual.
Understand this was a total affirmation of their love for each other. Through all the pain and all the hurtful things said and heard. It was the first time, each told the other what they felt, what they were going through. Honesty, and being honest can be a painful thing. Jack telling Ennis that he wasn't him, that the loneliness led him to seek others, Ennis telling Jack because of his need for him cost him, himself. These two men sacrificed a lot for each other, and the love for one another at last understood, out in the open.
You really never know what the other person may have given up for you, or did to hold on to what they have with you, in order to love and be with you. At that moment in their lives Jack and Ennis let the other know. And they still loved each other.
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Understand this was a total affirmation of their love for each other. Through all the pain and all the hurtful things said and heard. It was the first time, each told the other what they felt, what they were going through. Honesty, and being honest can be a painful thing. Jack telling Ennis that he wasn't him, that the loneliness led him to seek others, Ennis telling Jack because of his need for him cost him, himself. These two men sacrificed a lot for each other, and the love for one another at last understood, out in the open.
You really never know what the other person may have given up for you, or did to hold on to what they have with you, in order to love and be with you. At that moment in their lives Jack and Ennis let the other know. And they still loved each other.
If I may add my 2 cents to this discussion, I feel they both saw each other slipping away so it was time to take some kind of action. Jack was'nt gonna let it rest this time. Theirs was a deep and passionate love. It is with this passion both fought to save it.
Ennis already knew Jack was unfaithful with " the foreman's wife" and now here is the Mexico business, also confirmed by Jack himself. Ennis probably suspected there were others, which to him spelled a rejection of him for others. He was no longer the one and only lover Jack had and this thought hurt and angered him ( even threatening Jack's life) if he found out about any more. Jack's unremorseful attitude about his infidelity to Ennis spoke of an entitlement to cheat (" hell yeah, is that a f##*kin problem?) It's as if Jack is daring Ennis to say something about it after all the rejections he'd suffered.
Ennis spits in disgust at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, walks away as if to say "I'm done", but no,no,no, Jack is'nt done with him just yet. He goes on to explain it to Ennis with no pretense WHY he's done what he's done in a way that Ennis can understand nor no longer pretend to himself that what Jack's" better idea" he "did once" have and the rejection of that idea is the basis of his loosing faith in the relationship.
He was not going to allow Ennis to walk away thinking that he had no role in his infidelities. Imo he was correct in doing so. He left Jack vulnerable in many ways. He was "nothin" and " nowhere", not because of anything Jack did wrong ,but I feel it was his love and need for Jack that caused Ennis to give up so much for Jack, but Jack was'nt twisting his arm or forcing him to do anything. Jack's actions thru the years implied a deep love for Ennis, and Ennis willingly reciprocated it, and imo if either one of them had a choice in rejecting it , it was complex, complicated, self-denying ,stubborn ol Ennis Del Mar....but he did'nt. MO. Thanks.
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If I may add my 2 cents to this discussion, I feel they both saw each other slipping away so it was time to take some kind of action. Jack was'nt gonna let it rest this time. Theirs was a deep and passionate love. It is with this passion both fought to save it.
Ennis already knew Jack was unfaithful with " the foreman's wife" and now here is the Mexico business, also confirmed by Jack himself. Ennis probably suspected there were others, which to him spelled a rejection of him for others. He was no longer the one and only lover Jack had and this thought hurt and angered him ( even threatening Jack's life) if he found out about any more. Jack's unremorseful attitude about his infidelity to Ennis spoke of an entitlement to cheat (" hell yeah, is that a f##*kin problem?) It's as if Jack is daring Ennis to say something about it after all the rejections he'd suffered.
Ennis spits in disgust at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, walks away as if to say "I'm done", but no,no,no, Jack is'nt done with him just yet. He goes on to explain it to Ennis with no pretense WHY he's done what he's done in a way that Ennis can understand nor no longer pretend to himself that what Jack's" better idea" he "did once" have and the rejection of that idea is the basis of his loosing faith in the relationship.
He was not going to allow Ennis to walk away thinking that he had no role in his infidelities. Imo he was correct in doing so. He left Jack vulnerable in many ways. He was "nothin" and " nowhere", not because of anything Jack did wrong ,but I feel it was his love and need for Jack that caused Ennis to give up so much for Jack, but Jack was'nt twisting his arm or forcing him to do anything. Jack's actions thru the years implied a deep love for Ennis, and Ennis willingly reciprocated it, and imo if either one of them had a choice in rejecting it , it was complex, complicated, self-denying ,stubborn ol Ennis Del Mar....but he did'nt. MO. Thanks.
IMO, he did sort of push for the confrontation in the end, daring Ennis to face up to his fears. I also think it was correct. I would even go further to say that it was inevitable. It was just a matter of time. What surprised me more is that Jack took that long to reach this point. Perhaps his infidelities were a kind of "dare", knowing that Ennis would be able to read between the lines. But having pushed Ennis, we see that he did not the heart to insist at the very end.
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Please forgive-am having a PBS time, and always thought I never had that, except during the movie, each time I would see it.
Anyway, about love itself, the different types of love produce different troubles. There's very little research in this area and I think Dr. Gray's
book was a huge step forward. There's family love, friendship love, sexual/romantic love and idealized love (the ultimate, perhaps). All of them
produce hurts, but it is the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so
absorbed in the other. It's a love we claim we would want, but it is the most threatening of all.
So, in lookng over this topic, and doing some thinking, I believe it was that last love that Ennis fought. They had the friendship love, the
sexual/romantic love, and, yes, even the family love (Dr. Gray says sexual/romantic ends up, safely, in a family love, where the physical
attraction is less important, and that was something our guys had reached, by passing through the years and being middle-aged). They did not
fear anything but the idealized love that is so very rare and requires a complete focus on the other, to the loss of one's safety. And yet they
had that too. They had it all, but both (not just Ennis) feared that last one, which does require a loss of life baggage and merging with the
beloved. Sorry. Real PBS hitting, even as am being analytical.
It was Jack who said-"I'm not you, Ennis!", and then gave out his complaints. But I really believe Ennis said it back-"I'm not you,Jack!".
and yet those are the last defiant challenges of two souls so in love they were near to merging, the helix complete, the idealistic love written
of through the ages.
Heck--am kinda glad there were gay issues, and the ugly environment, because now it seems those challenges were part of the push, the
reptilian outside threat to them both, that gave them even more in common and ever more reason to love. Two guys fighting off a cold world
and past that a homophobic (or just maybe just sexually cardboard world), would have all, the more,only each other. They knew there was more.
Sorry. Too long. Real PBS and analyzing it doesn't help. Tony.
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Understand this was a total affirmation of their love for each other. Through all the pain and all the hurtful things said and heard. It was the first time, each told the other what they felt, what they were going through. Honesty, and being honest can be a painful thing. Jack telling Ennis that he wasn't him, that the loneliness led him to seek others, Ennis telling Jack because of his need for him cost him, himself. These two men sacrificed a lot for each other, and the love for one another at last understood, out in the open.
You really never know what the other person may have given up for you, or did to hold on to what they have with you, in order to love and be with you. At that moment in their lives Jack and Ennis let the other know. And they still loved each other.
I stand corrected, manhattangirl, gladly. :t) I knew you have a good reason to say what you did, and I just didn't understand it. Thank you for the explanation.
It is love even though it is not the romantic kind of love that we expect, as in the river side prayer to heaven scene, or the motel scenes. It is the kind of love that is action at its core. It is probably the first time the two tried to be so open, honest, and vulnerable. If they'd only done it twenty years earlier on Brokeback Mountain. But they didn't know they love each other then.
Thanks again! :ghug: ^f^ :^^) :c)
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IMO, he did sort of push for the confrontation in the end, daring Ennis to face up to his fears. I also think it was correct. I would even go further to say that it was inevitable. It was just a matter of time. What surprised me more is that Jack took that long to reach this point. Perhaps his infidelities were a kind of "dare", knowing that Ennis would be able to read between the lines. But having pushed Ennis, we see that he did not the heart to insist at the very end.
Although Jack's confrontation with Ennis is necessary, and as you mention, long overdue, I also think it was short of taking full responsibility for his own actions. Instead of laying the blame on Ennis for his infidelity, Jack could have said, yes, I was wrong, but one more time, either we live the sweet life together, or we are done. This long distance crap is not working, was not working, and won't last. Let's go to my folks' place in Lightning Flat, spend a few days getting to know them, and see what we can do from there. No pressure, no expectations, just to see what happens. You will like my ma. She is real nice and friendly. She will like you, too. If you don't like any of it, no hard feelings. I will always love you, but not at a distance. I want to share Thanksgiving dinners, all the little joys and pains of living together...
I can go on and on with more sentimental stuff, but you get the idea.
When Jack did not pursue this, Ennis felt rightfully betrayed and left out in the cold. After all, Jack was the one who was unfaithful. If he was still interested in the sweet life, he should have said so. Ennis already said he wasn't seeing anyone else, already said his financial situation only allowed so much vacation time, he asked Jack once again if he had a better idea. If Jack did not feel so bitter, and offered the sweet life again, Ennis may reject it again, sure, but then Jack would be all the more in the right to say then we are done. Because all the options (almost all) would be exhausted.
Anyway, just my biased opinion, in defense of you know who...
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Please forgive-am having a PBS time, and always thought I never had that, except during the movie, each time I would see it.
Anyway, about love itself, the different types of love produce different troubles. There's very little research in this area and I think Dr. Gray's
book was a huge step forward. There's family love, friendship love, sexual/romantic love and idealized love (the ultimate, perhaps). All of them
produce hurts, but it is the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so
absorbed in the other. It's a love we claim we would want, but it is the most threatening of all.
So, in lookng over this topic, and doing some thinking, I believe it was that last love that Ennis fought. They had the friendship love, the
sexual/romantic love, and, yes, even the family love (Dr. Gray says sexual/romantic ends up, safely, in a family love, where the physical
attraction is less important, and that was something our guys had reached, by passing through the years and being middle-aged). They did not
fear anything but the idealized love that is so very rare and requires a complete focus on the other, to the loss of one's safety. And yet they
had that too. They had it all, but both (not just Ennis) feared that last one, which does require a loss of life baggage and merging with the
beloved. Sorry. Real PBS hitting, even as am being analytical.
It was Jack who said-"I'm not you, Ennis!", and then gave out his complaints. But I really believe Ennis said it back-"I'm not you,Jack!".
and yet those are the last defiant challenges of two souls so in love they were near to merging, the helix complete, the idealistic love written
of through the ages.
Heck--am kinda glad there were gay issues, and the ugly environment, because now it seems those challenges were part of the push, the
reptilian outside threat to them both, that gave them even more in common and ever more reason to love. Two guys fighting off a cold world
and past that a homophobic (or just maybe just sexually cardboard world), would have all, the more,only each other. They knew there was more.
Sorry. Too long. Real PBS and analyzing it doesn't help. Tony.
Hi, Tony, I am sorry to hear about your PBS. It happens to all of us. I hope you find the forum as much help as I do.
I am glad you brought up the different kinds of love, and the concept of the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so
absorbed in the other. I have read about this, too, in terms of Transactional Analysis, where the boundary between Self and Other becomes thinner and thinner, until as you said, the Other becomes the Self, sometimes resulting in a loss of identity, or a new identity.
I think this is what Ennis and Jack had. It is what they long to share, together. But the big elephant in the room kept them apart, and Ennis was more susceptible to it than Jack was.
I hope you sort out your PBS. I found that PBS is actually my heart trying to tell me something that my mind ignored. When I sort out the feelings, PBS usually sooths away.
:ghug: :^^) :c)
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Although Jack's confrontation with Ennis is necessary, and as you mention, long overdue, I also think it was short of taking full responsibility for his own actions. Instead of laying the blame on Ennis for his infidelity, Jack could have said, yes, I was wrong, but one more time, either we live the sweet life together, or we are done. This long distance crap is not working, was not working, and won't last. Let's go to my folks' place in Lightning Flat, spend a few days getting to know them, and see what we can do from there. No pressure, no expectations, just to see what happens. You will like my ma. She is real nice and friendly. She will like you, too. If you don't like any of it, no hard feelings. I will always love you, but not at a distance. I want to share Thanksgiving dinners, all the little joys and pains of living together...
I can go on and on with more sentimental stuff, but you get the idea.
When Jack did not pursue this, Ennis felt rightfully betrayed and left out in the cold. After all, Jack was the one who was unfaithful. If he was still interested in the sweet life, he should have said so. Ennis already said he wasn't seeing anyone else, already said his financial situation only allowed so much vacation time, he asked Jack once again if he had a better idea. If Jack did not feel so bitter, and offered the sweet life again, Ennis may reject it again, sure, but then Jack would be all the more in the right to say then we are done. Because all the options (almost all) would be exhausted.
Anyway, just my biased opinion, in defense of you know who...
Not sentimental at all, and it is true that Jack's lack of faithfulness was something he pretty much admitted to, when he said "I'm not like you." It did fall short. But perhaps he did this part intentionally, to push Ennis to the brink. Should I call it a "dare"? A kind of baiting? I don't know if this is too extreme. But what I feel is that perhaps he wanted it to throw Ennis off-balance, to put Ennis in a position of vulnerability -- as an ignored lover would try to make the other jealous. Perhaps it is a reaction stemming from Jack's own sense of vulnerability -- and guilt, I might add.
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Wow. I've been away from this thread for a while, because I know that coming here means taking time and a lot of thought to read through the posts, and I've been so scattered lately, with only a few minutes to spare at a time. But like Jack and Ennis, I couldn't stay away.
This discussion has been so interesting and I'm not really sure where to start, so I'll just jump in and hope I don't get too jumbled. As to the fight scene when they're coming down the mountain at the end of the summer, great comments by everyone, and I'd have to say I agree with them all, because there are so many layers to what each of them is feeling there and so many interpretations of that. So yeah, Tony, you're right - we probably can't come to an absolute consensus. Which is actually what I love about this whole story, both the original SS and the movie. It's so open to interpretation and can mean so many things to so many people. And the meanings are so colored for all of us by our own personal experiences, that we almost have to see it in different ways. I love all of the insights that I wouldn't otherwise see. :)
I also agree with the idea that the final confrontation was, in many ways, an affirmation of love. After 20 years, they finally laid out some basic truths for each other, exposed vulnerabilities that they weren't usually willing to reveal. And I think the fact that even as they did so, they still couldn't use direct words or confessions of their feelings, reflects the framework of their entire relationship together. Each was so locked into his own fears about how far to tread in shining a light on what was really inside, and how much of his own soul to bare, that this conversation and their mutual breakdowns, was the best they could do to show one another how they felt. "We could've had a good life, but you didn't want it" (in the ss, he says 'you woudn't do it' - I think 'you didn't want it' is even more heartbreaking), "You have no idea how bad it gets", "I wish I knew how to quit you", "I'm nothin', I'm nowhere", "I just can't stand it anymore". All of these phrases spoke volumes, even if they couldn't say "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it....because I love you and I just want to be with you" or "I'm nothin', I'm nowhere because I love you, but I can't reconcile that with what I've been taught to resist and what I've been taught to fear, thereby leaving me forever torn between what I want and what I think I have to stand, not fitting anywhere."
I think that idea of "the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so absorbed in the other" really fits in here, too. They've both succombed to that, becoming so entwined over the course of the years, that I'm not sure either would have been capable of living without the other, and I think they both knew at least that much about themselves. Jack felt bound by Ennis's "short leash" and wished he knew how to quit him, but knew full well that he didn't. I think Ennis says "Why don't you just leave me be?!" because he knows that he could never take that step and sever their tie himself.
I once told someone that no matter how you feel about yourself or what your level of self esteem is, you make yourself vulnerable to what another person thinks of you, and feels for you, when you choose to love them (and I use the word "choose" loosely here, as most of us so rarely have a choice when we fall in love). You are giving them a certain amount of power over you, power to impact you in ways that no one else can. I think both of them felt that vulnerability (and I'm not sure they realized the other felt it too until the final confrontation). Still, all of the external forces that had shaped their relationship to this point were still in place, and I think that is why they were left with "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
As to the infidelity issue, I never think that infidelity is justified, but I think sometimes it can be understood. For Jack, imo, he would have been happy to be only with Ennis for the rest of their lives. That was the whole "sweet life" proposal back in '67. I do think that he was letting Ennis know what role he played in Jack's infidelities by setting up the conditions under which Jack felt the need to do that. I don't think that Ennis cared about the idea of Jack being with other women, any more than he would have supposed Jack cared about him doing so. But for Jack to have been with other men meant two things. First, it meant that Jack was interested in men, not just Ennis, and Ennis didn't want to explore the possibility that either of them might be 'queer'. The "boys like you" line was very telling here. Second, I think that to Ennis, Jack being with other men felt like an infidelity, a betrayal, in a way that being with a woman never would. And I have to disagree about Jack's lack of taking responsibility for his infidelities. I'm not sure he's blaming it on Ennis, necessarily, but explaining some of the impetus for doing what he did. I really don't think that asking Ennis to come to Lightning Flat would have solved anything, because I don't think that Ennis saw himself as controlling anything, but merely doing as much as he could do within the boundaries that he was given. Nothing had happened to change that during their fight, because it was always an external force (to his mind - as he didn't realize that a lot of those barriers were within him, though admittedly we can see how they got there) that kept Ennis from being able to change anything for them. I think it was Tony who said we recognize that they're not perfect, but we still love them. So true. I love them both, maybe even because they aren't perfect, just two simple guys doing the best they can with what life has thrown at them, clinging desperately to each other, no matter how much their hearts might be breaking. There's that darn idealized love again. :c)
I also think the line "I did once" was a reference to Jack's 'sweet life' proposal as well. To me, what he's saying is not "I did once" 'but I don't feel that way anymore'. I see it more as "I did once" 'but you wouldn't do it, so I don't have any more suggestions because you wouldn't take me up on them anyway.' The "everything is built on that" line, to me, is Jack's way of saying 'you won't allow me to move this any further, and I can't move it without you, so we're stuck in this limbo. I wish I knew how to quit you, but I don't.' Which also goes back to the infidelity thing - 'that's what I'm doing to be able to stand the limbo.'
I guess in the end, there really were an awful lot of different fears ruling each of them. That they stayed together for all of those years, to me, represents a bravery on the part of both of them and a testament to the depth of their love for each other.
Sorry for the Lashawn. :-X I told you I'd need a lot of time. Now you know why it took me so long to get back here. ::)
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FlwrChild: wow.
Some of my favorites:
I also agree with the idea that the final confrontation was, in many ways, an affirmation of love.
I think that idea of "the idealized love that requires surrender of your emotional defense systems and even the loss of identity, you are so absorbed in the other" really fits in here, too... I think Ennis says "Why don't you just leave me be?!" because he knows that he could never take that step and sever their tie himself.
And lastly.
I also think the line "I did once" was a reference to Jack's 'sweet life' proposal as well. To me, what he's saying is not "I did once" 'but I don't feel that way anymore'... The "everything is built on that" line, to me, is Jack's way of saying 'you won't allow me to move this any further, and I can't move it without you, so we're stuck in this limbo...
A lot of wonderful thoughts here.
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Thanks Thomas. ^f^
There is so much to look at in this story. Amazingly, their situation is both extremely simple and extremely complicated, don't you think?
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Thanks Thomas. ^f^
There is so much to look at in this story. Amazingly, their situation is both extremely simple and extremely complicated, don't you think?
Yes, on a certain level, the story and the "fear" of love is simple and straightforward, but there is so much layering of meaning. There is no best way to look at all this. The different meanings may be special/unique to us individually. It's because the story and the film speak to each of us in a unique, very personal voice.
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Exactly. :)
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FlwrChild, one of your quotes is, I think, one that we haven't done much with. In fact, I'd blanked it out. "Why don't you just let me be?"
It can't mean that Ennis was blaming the whole relationship on Jack, as he encouraged and planned for their meetings. My gut instinct tells me
none of this was about sex, but about Ennis loneliness and life as a loner. I really believe he'd had subtle signals all his life he was of little
value and being dumped by his relatives, into the world, was not sudden, but part of always being discardable. So he learned to survive by
keeping to himself. And along comes Jack, a direct threat to that way of life. Please consider, the marriage to Alma did not threaten-he was
able to keep to himself and work long hours and so-still be alone. Married, but safely alone.
And Jack was trying so hard, so very hard, to bring him into real life. "Why don't you just let me be?", together with his self-description
as a nothing, a nobody, means, for me at least, sex wasn't the problem, even the environment,...the problem was Ennis felt only safe-alone,
and there was Jack offering not sexuality, but a different outlook on life, one very fearful to someone who needed never to be discarded again.
Fear of Love? Maybe also, Fear of Life. Jack was Life-full of risk, joy, adventure, hope, and...danger. The quote is central, I think, although
it can be read so many other ways. Thanks for not forgetting it.
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Tony, I think you're right. There are so many different things we could take from that plea. Which is immediately followed by "It's cause a you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothin'. I'm nowhere."
-It's cause a you that I'm involved with a man. I never would've done that of my own accord.
-It's cause a you that I'm torn between what I want and what I think I'm allowed to have.
-It's cause a you that I can't have a life, because part of me is always with you.
-It's cause a you that I'm stuck where I am in life, because I quit all those jobs to be with you.
-It's cause a you that I'm vulnerable, which scares the hell out of me.
He could have meant all of those things or none of them. Ennis's life was definitely shaped by fear in many ways. For someone who undoubdtedly appeared to be so basic, so straightforward and uncomplicated to the outside world, I think he's the epitome of the saying "still waters run deep."
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Nothing had happened to change that during their fight, because it was always an external force (to his mind - as he didn't realize that a lot of those barriers were within him, though admittedly we can see how they got there) that kept Ennis from being able to change anything for them. I think it was Tony who said we recognize that they're not perfect, but we still love them. So true. I love them both, maybe even because they aren't perfect, just two simple guys doing the best they can with what life has thrown at them, clinging desperately to each other, no matter how much their hearts might be breaking. There's that darn idealized love again. :c)
I also think the line "I did once" was a reference to Jack's 'sweet life' proposal as well. To me, what he's saying is not "I did once" 'but I don't feel that way anymore'. I see it more as "I did once" 'but you wouldn't do it, so I don't have any more suggestions because you wouldn't take me up on them anyway.' The "everything is built on that" line, to me, is Jack's way of saying 'you won't allow me to move this any further, and I can't move it without you, so we're stuck in this limbo. I wish I knew how to quit you, but I don't.' Which also goes back to the infidelity thing - 'that's what I'm doing to be able to stand the limbo.'
I guess in the end, there really were an awful lot of different fears ruling each of them. That they stayed together for all of those years, to me, represents a bravery on the part of both of them and a testament to the depth of their love for each other.
Wow Barb!!! I'm stunned!!! Amazing post, sweetie!!! I agree 100%. Very well said. Thank so much for this!!! ^f^
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Not sentimental at all, and it is true that Jack's lack of faithfulness was something he pretty much admitted to, when he said "I'm not like you." It did fall short. But perhaps he did this part intentionally, to push Ennis to the brink. Should I call it a "dare"? A kind of baiting? I don't know if this is too extreme. But what I feel is that perhaps he wanted it to throw Ennis off-balance, to put Ennis in a position of vulnerability -- as an ignored lover would try to make the other jealous. Perhaps it is a reaction stemming from Jack's own sense of vulnerability -- and guilt, I might add.
Love is patient love is kind...
True love would never intentionally hurt the other person by making them feel unloved, making them feel jealous, and true love would not be suffocatingly possessive, and most of all, I think true love as Jack and Ennis have, would not push nor dare the other person into a position of vulnerability...just my own humble opinion.
I agree with you that Jack's own sense of guilt and vulnerability might have influenced his behavior that day. Whatever the reason, nothing begun, nothing ended, nothing resolved.
The inability to communicate emotionally, though understandable for cowboys of their times and circumstance, made their relationship all the more difficult to sustain over time.
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Fear of Love? Maybe also, Fear of Life.
I went into the woods because I wanted to live deliberately. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life... to put to rout all that was not life; and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. -- Thoreau.
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Love is patient love is kind...
True love would never intentionally hurt the other person by making them feel unloved, making them feel jealous, and true love would not be suffocatingly possessive, and most of all, I think true love as Jack and Ennis have, would not push nor dare the other person into a position of vulnerability...just my own humble opinion.
I agree with you that Jack's own sense of guilt and vulnerability might have influenced his behavior that day. Whatever the reason, nothing begun, nothing ended, nothing resolved.
The inability to communicate emotionally, though understandable for cowboys of their times and circumstance, made their relationship all the more difficult to sustain over time.
There was nothing resolved because there was that fear of what could go wrong, of what could be the response of one to the other. As I had mentioned elsewhere, I thought Jack's "decision" to plan moving in with the Texas ranch neighbor was perhaps a way to rouse Ennis into action -- even if it meant hurting him some more. True, it could have gone either way, but I think we can understand Jack's infidelities as a way of getting a reaction from Ennis -- perhaps making him realize that things will not be as is forever.
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Guys, I really love this thread and all your posts, it gets more and more interesting, just can say :t). I can't post as much as I'd like to, but I read you everyday, and I'm pleased. ^f^
Today I wanted to add my own view about this topic, and I'm getting a bit personal (which I haven't done here so far...) so I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. Annie Prouxl herself said "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts" When I watched the scene of the fight in the mountain I felt very moved since I noticed that I could recognise and understand their behaviours and their motivations...
When I was around 20 years old, I started to go out with a new group of friends. For some reason, I wasn't having a good time, and was sad, angry and bitter, so I wasn't the nicest girl...and often quite stroppy :-\\. One day, I began to notice one of the guys in the group was interested in me. I saw some signals but I couldn't believe, because of what I said before...I felt ugly, stupid, stroppy and worse, how could he be interested in me?
Sometimes, when he tried to approach I tried to be nice, or at least not an idiot, I was kind of thankful to him for being so kind even if I didn't deserve it. But some other times I was furious...If I was being so unpleasant, why the hell was he still trying to be good to me?? Of course I never punched him or fight physically...but I used to get really angry and felt like screaming: What do you want from me you idiot!?!? Never did that anyway...I've got a strong self-control. But I must admit there were many situations in which he was trying to show kindness and affection, and my reaction was kind of agressive. I wondered myself one thousand times why he was interested in me and I used to have the bitterest thoughts: He's in need of a girlfriend, he doesn't know me actually, as soon as he notices the way I am he'll be disappointed etc...FlwrChild spoke about self esteem, I totally agree. When you hate yourself you can't understand others loving you, so you try to keep them at distance. Accepting that love is a threat to all your mind patterns, meaning to become a different person...That is a harder thing to do than stay comfortable in your cocoon in isolation. There are fear of love, and fear of life as Tony said.
That was the way it started, and it lasted around 5 years more or less. With time, I had no more rough impulses towards him, but kindness and deep affection, even if I was always confused and wondering what was going on in his head...or heart. We never had a romantic relationship since I always thought sincerely, he deserved to be corresponded, and I wasn't able to be as good as he was to me. I didn't want to give him a chance, just to try, and then leave him and hurt him much more than he could hurt me, I always thought it wasn't fair for him. During those 5 years, he got a couple of girlfriends, never too serious, and in the meantime, I knew he still had a soft spot for me. We did never speak openly about it...but I knew his attitudes, his looks...and a gossip friend of him who I always tried to avoid, cause he spoke a bit too much about our common friend. Maybe I was just silly, I don't know yet.
Now, I can only think he loved me, with my lights and darks. I can't say that it was my BbM...I can't compare, but Cassie and Ennis story recalls my own story with this guy. Just I was Ennis and he was Cassie. And despite of my self analysis, I'm not sure that I've learnt the lesson ^*() time will tell I suppose.
Sorry that I've finally made this longer than I planned, hope I haven't bored you to tears. ^f^
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Not at all, ayashae. :^^)
You have proven Annie Proulx's words to be true. And given another layer to the feelings and conflicts that must have been going on inside of Ennis, during that scene specifically, but also at various other times in their relationship. Thank you for sharing.
I really think we all share that personal connection to the story, or one or more of its characters, and that is why we respond the way we do. I am drawn to Jack, because in many ways in my own relationship, I have been him and have felt what he feels. Or what I imagine he feels, because that's the framework through which I am looking at him.
I suppose that's why I enjoy seeing everyone share their different views about the movie. It gives me a chance to learn about things I might not have seen otherwise, and to share insights from my own experience in return.
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ayashae , I can relate to what you shared here. Although the fear to reciprocate may not have been the same as the one Ennis exhibited and Jack endured, it is of the same substance.
As FlwrChild said, we all share a personal connection with the story, and I would not be surprised if the fear of love is at the core for many of us. It's more universal than most people would want to admit, I believe. This is why this topic moves us so.
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There was nothing resolved because there was that fear of what could go wrong, of what could be the response of one to the other. As I had mentioned elsewhere, I thought Jack's "decision" to plan moving in with the Texas ranch neighbor was perhaps a way to rouse Ennis into action -- even if it meant hurting him some more. True, it could have gone either way, but I think we can understand Jack's infidelities as a way of getting a reaction from Ennis -- perhaps making him realize that things will not be as is forever.
Fear of what could go wrong...fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of being left alone.
These are the fears that kept the two apart. Let us not forget the fear of social pressures...the pink elephant in the room.
I understand what Jack may think he was doing, consciously or otherwise. Nevertheless, He could just as effectively rouse Ennis into action by simply telling Ennis that he would no longer drive the distance for only a week or two. It has to be permanent, in Lightning Flat, or not at all. The ultimatum would have gotten more rousing action from Ennis. Infidelity is never a good thing to do in any relationship. I may be too naive to see the logic of telling someone you love that you are seeing someone else. It is as contrararian as can be. It's like saying I love pizza but I won't order any, instead I will only order hamburgers. :s) If I love someone, I would do what Jack did, tell them, never enough time, I want more time, I can hardly stand being apart from you. Or what Ennis said, don't tell me you are seeing someone else, because it hurts, it hurts enough for me to hurt you back, but I love you too d@#$ much to hurt you, so I can't take this no more.
Fear...yes...
Intentional infidelity to rouse jealous? :s) I don't think so.
Just my naivety, I guess. :c)
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Sadly, I don't think it would have been easy to rouse Ennis. In fact, I doubt that threatening inability to drive back and forth would have made that much of a differences, since it was Ennis who, over the years, seemed to have been less and less able to meet. But perhaps the most important thing is that Jack needed to see Ennis -- it would seem that if Ennis felt the same way, he suppressed it, because of his innate stoicism.
Naivety perhaps? ;D :^^) Stranger things happen in real life, lance. :)
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Sadly, I don't think it would have been easy to rouse Ennis. In fact, I doubt that threatening inability to drive back and forth would have made that much of a differences, since it was Ennis who, over the years, seemed to have been less and less able to meet. But perhaps the most important thing is that Jack needed to see Ennis -- it would seem that if Ennis felt the same way, he suppressed it, because of his innate stoicism.
Naivety perhaps? ;D :^^) Stranger things happen in real life, lance. :)
I love Jack more and more because of his persistence, his devoted faithfulness to Ennis over the years and over the distances, and because he pursued his dream, single-handedly captured the force of nature between them, made their love real for twenty years.
Ennis was always driven by Jack's persuasion, by his own need for Jack's love and friendship, by other people's opinion. I don't think it would take much to rouse Ennis if Jack pushed the right buttons. Alma managed to get him to move to Riverton by convincing him that it would be good for the girls, that they wouldn't be lonely like he was when he grew up. Jack needed to convince Ennis in his own terms, overcoming the third factor in the equation, making other people's opinions less of an issue. His suggestion to move to Texas was a good one, but he didn't pursue it further. Alma probably asked Ennis many times to move to Riverton. She probably waited a long time before a cheap apartment became available above the laundry mat. Jack, before the divorce scene, before the thanksgiving scene, probably would have the patience to pursue this, but the newly liberated Jack was more self-centered and self-absorbed to think about Ennis' circumstances.
The whole last meeting scene was about him, how Jack cannot get enough, how it's too cold, etc. He never acknowledged Ennis' sacrifice over the years, quitting job after job to be with him.
I am sorry to be harsh on Jack here, but it's not all of Ennis' fault.
His innate stoicism made the situation worse. If he had needed to be with Jack more often, Jack might have been able to convince him to move in together sooner. The irresistible force met the immovable object.
It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain.
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I love Jack more and more because of his persistence, his devoted faithfulness to Ennis over the years and over the distances, and because he pursued his dream, single-handedly captured the force of nature between them, made their love real for twenty years.
LC, you have just hit on exactly why I love Jack. He loved one person steadfastly his whole adult life. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't particularly sophisticated. For him, it was simple - I love Ennis, everything revolves around that.
I wish I could believe a little bit more the rest of what you say, but I just don't see it happening. I don't know that there was anything Jack could say to unlock Ennis's resistance to having a life together. Not his resistance to Jack, which was obviously shattered years before, but to the idea that they had any viable options. It's easy to be frustrated with Ennis, but it's also part of why I feel so protective towards him, and hurt for him so much. He was bound by lessons that were just too deeply ingrained to be able to see around. This is also why I love him - because, even with all of that going on inside of him, he did, as you pointed out, sacrifice and make the effort to keep seeing Jack all those years.
I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ::) ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.
And you're absolutely right about two things:
- It's not all Ennis's fault. He's as much a victim of circumstance as Jack. It's just that he was the one who had the power to change things, in appearance. The reality is that he simply couldn't exercise that power, and he didn't even know he had it.
- "The irresistible force met the immovable object.
It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain."
Beautifully said. :)
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LC, you have just hit on exactly why I love Jack. He loved one person steadfastly his whole adult life. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't particularly sophisticated. For him, it was simple - I love Ennis, everything revolves around that.
I wish I could believe a little bit more the rest of what you say, but I just don't see it happening. I don't know that there was anything Jack could say to unlock Ennis's resistance to having a life together. Not his resistance to Jack, which was obviously shattered years before, but to the idea that they had any viable options. It's easy to be frustrated with Ennis, but it's also part of why I feel so protective towards him, and hurt for him so much. He was bound by lessons that were just too deeply ingrained to be able to see around. This is also why I love him - because, even with all of that going on inside of him, he did, as you pointed out, sacrifice and make the effort to keep seeing Jack all those years.
Well, FlwrChild, I have always felt people can change to a certain degree but that's my naivete again. However, I can see what you mean, that Ennis, being stuck in a small rural community all his life, never traveled far, and probably never bothered to learn more about the outside world, would continue down the path that his father set for him with the Earl scene, feeling powerless to change.
I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ::) ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.
I see what you mean, echoing what manhattangirl said about the scene being an affirmation of their love for each other, that the scene allowed them to say to each other how they felt about each other, even though the dialog was painfully awkward, reflecting the stoic reticent nature of Ennis, and in a way, Jack the not-so-great communicator, who gets tongue-tied around the love of his life. We all get the same symptoms ... when our feelings overwhelm our mouth to say how we truly feel. And it's never easy to open up and say what we truly feel, while remaining open to receive to perceive what the other person is truly saying. Two way open communication is so hard, at the best of times, that it's amazing what they accomplished in that scene.
And you're absolutely right about two things:
- It's not all Ennis's fault. He's as much a victim of circumstance as Jack. It's just that he was the one who had the power to change things, in appearance. The reality is that he simply couldn't exercise that power, and he didn't even know he had it.
Ennis was so unconscious of so much about himself...that he was loved, not only by Jack, but also by Cassie, and Alma Jr... I guess when Ennis was so wrapped up in his thought about being found out, about missing Jack, it was easy to be unconscious of other important parts of his life.
Most of all, Ennis grew up without confidence in himself. From the beginning trailer scene to the end of the movie, Ennis gained confidence from Jack's love, by reflecting the bravado that he love to see in Jack. That was the beauty of their soul-mate love - Jack had the confidence but not the cowboy skills while Ennis had the cowboy skills but not the confidence. Together on Brokeback Mountain they were perfectly fitted together. When Jack drove off that summer in '63, he left behind a friend who helped him turn his ideas into reality, make his dreams come true. For Ennis, walking down that lonely stretch of highway was painful because his confidence just left him in the dust, his joie de vivre just drove off into the sunset. He was left alone again, like in his childhood, like on that grassy hill on the mountain before the lasso scene. With all the self-doubt, all the sadness, Ennis was stuck, as he said in the motel room, with just the practical things in life, like making a living, taking care of the two girls. Dreaming what could be, thinking of the sweet life, was not his forte and not what he thought was possible.
As you said, the tragedy of the movie is not so much just the death of Jack, or the loneliness of Ennis as an old man. It is the missed opportunities for them to say to each other their true feelings, society's pink elephant be d@#$ed. It is the missed opportunities for Ennis to embrace Jack's dream of a sweet life.
- "The irresistible force met the immovable object.
It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain."
Beautifully said. :)
Thanks, :c)
I just watched the movie, from beginning to end, again for the first time after a couple weeks. It's just as powerful, and now I can see what you mean by Ennis' stoicism getting in the way of his expressing his feelings for Jack. In the short story, the motel confession would be much more satisfying to Jack, but then the tragic element would be lost.
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ayashae , I can relate to what you shared here. Although the fear to reciprocate may not have been the same as the one Ennis exhibited and Jack endured, it is of the same substance.
As FlwrChild said, we all share a personal connection with the story, and I would not be surprised if the fear of love is at the core for many of us. It's more universal than most people would want to admit, I believe. This is why this topic moves us so.
I totally agree with that. At least I see it too often around, not only in myself
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...If I was being so unpleasant, why the hell was he still trying to be good to me?? ...What do you want from me you idiot!?!? ... I wondered myself one thousand times why he was interested in me and I used to have the bitterest thoughts: He's in need of a girlfriend, he doesn't know me actually, as soon as he notices the way I am he'll be disappointed etc...FlwrChild spoke about self esteem, I totally agree. When you hate yourself you can't understand others loving you, so you try to keep them at distance. Accepting that love is a threat to all your mind patterns, meaning to become a different person...That is a harder thing to do than stay comfortable in your cocoon in isolation. There are fear of love, and fear of life as Tony said.
That was the way it started, and it lasted around 5 years more or less. With time, I had no more rough impulses towards him, but kindness and deep affection, even if I was always confused and wondering what was going on in his head...or heart. We never had a romantic relationship since I always thought sincerely, he deserved to be corresponded, and I wasn't able to be as good as he was to me. I didn't want to give him a chance, just to try, and then leave him and hurt him much more than he could hurt me, I always thought it wasn't fair for him. During those 5 years, he got a couple of girlfriends, never too serious, and in the meantime, I knew he still had a soft spot for me. We did never speak openly about it...but I knew his attitudes, his looks...and a gossip friend of him who I always tried to avoid, cause he spoke a bit too much about our common friend. Maybe I was just silly, I don't know yet.
Now, I can only think he loved me, with my lights and darks. I can't say that it was my BbM...I can't compare, but Cassie and Ennis story recalls my own story with this guy. Just I was Ennis and he was Cassie. And despite of my self analysis, I'm not sure that I've learnt the lesson ^*() time will tell I suppose.
Sorry that I've finally made this longer than I planned, hope I haven't bored you to tears. ^f^
Ayashae, you know how preoccupied I had been these last few weeks, and I just read your courageous and moving account. I can only say what I learned from Dr. Phil once, that it is important to have a healthy self-image. It is what I am learning from LNJ's Awakening post in another thread. I understand exactly how you feel or felt, because I was exactly the same way, until I understood the love that broke down my walls, just as Ennis understood Jack's love in SNIT. But he never fully felt it in his heart, in his soul, until he found those two shirts, and finally, with tangible evidence of Jack's unfailing faithful devotion to him, Ennis was transformed, when his heart and soul were freed from the chains of fear, of self-doubt. I understood and learned the lesson twenty odd years ago, and am continually learning it everyday because it is almost a fight against some old habit. I was going to say almost like alcoholism, there is no cure, just continually managed everyday.
Having this forum, with all the love and kindness, with all the good and compassionate people, helps me a great deal. Knowing, feeling, accepting the love that I was given many years ago, and now, changed, and continually change my life. I hope your learning and knowing that you are also loved, worthy of great love, will continually to help you find your heaven on earth, and be happy.
Te quiero, mi amiga.
Usted es una persona maravillosa, capaz de gran bondad y merecedora de grandes elogios. Usted tiene mi cariño interminable.
%) :ghug: :^^) <^( :c) ^f^
I love you, my friend.
You are a wonderful person capable of great kindness and deserving of great praise. You have my unending affection.
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Thanks, :c)
I just watched the movie, from beginning to end, again for the first time after a couple weeks. It's just as powerful, and now I can see what you mean by Ennis' stoicism getting in the way of his expressing his feelings for Jack. In the short story, the motel confession would be much more satisfying to Jack, but then the tragic element would be lost.
LC, your entire post summed things up very well. And I agree with this. Part of me has always wished that Ennis in the movie had been a little more forthcoming about his feelings in that scene, but it fit with the way he was fleshed out for the movie, so...sigh...
I think it's interesting that in the SS, Ennis is shown to be a little more open and tender with Jack (the motel scene admission and the "Little darlin'" in the reunion scene) and in the movie he's shown to be a little more so with his children (in the SS he was fairly cavalier about seeing them after the Thanksgiving blow-out with Alma). In either case, his conflicted feelings about what he could or could not do to alter the direction of his life was well illustrated. As you said, the missed opportunities probably caused the most tragedy.
Ayashae, I'll add one of mine to LC's :ghug: I'm awfully glad you're here. :^^)
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My senses are a bit dull today, so I owe you better words, and many comments in everybody's great posts, in my next ones...now I just can say THANK YOU, and those feelings are mutual <^( YOU ARE WONDERFUL ^f^ :ghug: %)
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Am off on a quirky sidebar to the issue of love (what? Tony quirky?...nah, totally normal...maybe). We all know that we would admire to be
loved--it's very reassuring, if not flattering. But I wonder how many of us can admit occasional doubts as to our capacity to love, and am not
being sexist, but this may be more of an issue for guys.
There's that old song: "Why can't I fall in love, like any other man....and maybe, then, I'll know..what kind of fool I am." There is the question
of defining your feelings. Maybe sometimes two lovers wonder, how much of this is sex, how much is companionship, how much is making sure
you are not alone. Those aren't love.
It can be a fearful question because we have to dig deep in our souls. Do you REALLY love this or that family member, for example, or is it
because you're supposed to love them?
Nobody stays "in love" 24 hours a day-you couldn't function. So just a slight further look at our two guys---turning the tables, and wondering
if they had trouble believing they could love, really love, as well as the question, were they loved. There has to be some turmoil in defining your
own feelings, and a small part of the turmoil might well have been for Ennis and Jack, a full, consistent, enduring definition of their feelings
for the other as love.
So then, added to Fear of Love, which we know was very real, from our vantage point, maybe, off and on, they did, like so many others, if
they only admitted it, wonder about the real force within them, and whether it could be defined as love.
Aarkghk! Too wordy! What I mean is, did they ever doubt not only the others love, but their own? It would be a very small part of the
equation, but self-doubt as to one's own capacity to love can screw up the works as good as anything else. This isn't going anywhere, but
am always trying for a fuller picture, and I do wonder.
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Am off on a quirky sidebar to the issue of love (what? Tony quirky?...nah, totally normal...maybe).
Tony, like Cassie said to Alma jr. after she said her daddy may not be the marrying kind, and that Cassie was good enough...you may not say much, but you get your point across. And you ain't as quirky as you think you are. Your insights always get me thinking into new territories and pushing new boundaries. Sometimes into places I don't want to or need to go, and you are understanding enough not to push too far. I appreciate that.
We all know that we would admire to be
loved--it's very reassuring, if not flattering. But I wonder how many of us can admit occasional doubts as to our capacity to love, and am not
being sexist, but this may be more of an issue for guys.
I think it is not so much sexist, but the dichotomy of the human sexual nature. Women tend to be more in touch with their feelings, especially their feelings about love; men to be less in tune and understanding about them. Women talk about their feelings all the time, especially with each other; men, especially cowboys, never or hardly ever talk about feelings, especially love. It is why Alma Jr. was so touched, moved to tears, when Ennis asked her if Kurt loved her. It must be the first time he talked to her about love.
There's that old song: "Why can't I fall in love, like any other man....and maybe, then, I'll know..what kind of fool I am." There is the question
of defining your feelings. Maybe sometimes two lovers wonder, how much of this is sex, how much is companionship, how much is making sure
you are not alone. Those aren't love.
It can be a fearful question because we have to dig deep in our souls. Do you REALLY love this or that family member, for example, or is it
because you're supposed to love them?
It took me a long time to learn or understand about love, since I am your typical guy who never talked about feelings with buddies or anyone. I always thought love was what you feel, like in the movies, until I read M.Scott Peck's book "Road Less Traveled" and realized that love is not about feelings, but about actions. It is not lust, but the sexual acts that merge two egos. It is not romance, but the little acts of loving kindness without being asked that make the person feel special. It is not the feeling of camaraderie but the constant watching out for one another, being there for one another. In my opinion, it is not so much about digging deep into the soul, because that means getting into the metaphysical nature of how deep is the soul. But instead, IMO, it is about how much are we willing to do for love, how much are we willing to sacrifice of our own self for the one loved. Would we be willing to drive fourteen hours each way to meet two three times a year, a week at a time? Would we be willing to quit our jobs to meet for just a week, doing what we do every day at the job? Would we be willing to give up everything, even our own life, for the sake of the person we love? These are tangible measures that does not require metaphysics.
Nobody stays "in love" 24 hours a day-you couldn't function. So just a slight further look at our two guys---turning the tables, and wondering
if they had trouble believing they could love, really love, as well as the question, were they loved. There has to be some turmoil in defining your
own feelings, and a small part of the turmoil might well have been for Ennis and Jack, a full, consistent, enduring definition of their feelings
for the other as love.
Although it is out of context, I find a passage from the New Testament appropriate when understanding love: Those who save their own life will lose it, but those who give up their own life for my sake, will gain eternal life.
IMO, it is similar in love, those who seek their own selfish fulfillment will never find love, but those who would give up their own identity for the sake of their loved one will know true love. The key to a healthy long lasting true love relationship is to find a balance between self-denial and self-protection. The miracle of miracles that brought Ennis and Jack together was their being able to build a relationship of trust, of friendship, and finally of love, slowly and naturally, without interference from third parties, without distraction from other temptations, and without external forces that push any new found equilibrium out of balance. Aquirre was the closest to a force that almost destroyed their relationship, when he called them down earlier than planned.
So then, added to Fear of Love, which we know was very real, from our vantage point, maybe, off and on, they did, like so many others, if
they only admitted it, wonder about the real force within them, and whether it could be defined as love.
Aarkghk! Too wordy! What I mean is, did they ever doubt not only the others love, but their own? It would be a very small part of the
equation, but self-doubt as to one's own capacity to love can screw up the works as good as anything else. This isn't going anywhere, but
am always trying for a fuller picture, and I do wonder.
Self-doubt is the antithesis of anything worthwhile in life, and most of all, the nemesis of true love.
True love like Jack's gives confidence to Ennis - bullying and belittling turns away love, while generating self-doubt.
I kinda had it on the tip of my tongue, until you pushed the envelop, Tony, and pushed it clearly out into the open. Where the light of day can show the truth, and burn away the dross. Thanks.
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Hi, Lance---that was such a careful commentary and everything you said was appreciated. Was moved to try my first cut, copy, paste,
but am totally a klutz- it didn't fly, so will work from memory.
You had said something about balancing giving one's self up and self-protection, and that is exactly what is healthy. Branching off from
that, Bishop Fulton Sheen had a t.v. program where he emphasized, on the subject of love, that self-love was not wrong-we were made that
way, and that we must learn to love ourselves first before we can give love to others. And I think he meant what you were saying-balance.
He was talking long before the catch-phrase "low self-esteem" was being used, and it goes to---a healthy balance. Except, he did note it's
often hard to love yourself. Wonder what he would have made of Ennis' insecurities.
Lance-I don't understand how you feel my posts can "push" -even though you meant that in a very constructive way. Am not an aggressive
person, so when people have a reaction, I really think it's because I'm the odd man out, the outsider of the tribal village and so, am unaware
that anything from that perspective jolts others. Your reactions- a serious and decent hearing of someone else's point of view, can make you
feel pushed, but that's you at work, not me. Your own taking other people seriously. And this is so very superior to those who hear a different
point of view and quietly..gnash their teeth. You are a better person for that, and it will keep you a step ahead of those less open-minded
to anything different.
Which reminds me--Ayashae's very courageous post had many of the elements we have been covering. Which just strengthens my belief that
there are universal themes of great importance in BBM, and we are right to keep exploring and keep loving, and keep...looking for more.
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Hi, Lance---that was such a careful commentary and everything you said was appreciated. Was moved to try my first cut, copy, paste,
but am totally a klutz- it didn't fly, so will work from memory.
You had said something about balancing giving one's self up and self-protection, and that is exactly what is healthy. Branching off from
that, Bishop Fulton Sheen had a t.v. program where he emphasized, on the subject of love, that self-love was not wrong-we were made that
way, and that we must learn to love ourselves first before we can give love to others. And I think he meant what you were saying-balance.
He was talking long before the catch-phrase "low self-esteem" was being used, and it goes to---a healthy balance. Except, he did note it's
often hard to love yourself. Wonder what he would have made of Ennis' insecurities.
Hey, Tony. I am glad you agree with my take on the balance between self-love and loving others. I respect your insights, so I feel good that you agree with me on this. Thank you.
I don't agree with Bishop Fulton Sheen, however, that it is hard to love oneself. It is only for those who have been brow-beaten by the system, or by bullies, or by abusive spouses, etc, who have trouble with self-love. Ennis, for example, had trouble because he grew up alone with out many loving people. There are others who grew up similarly and choose to love themselves more than others. It all depends on the person's personality, character, and many other innate factors. People are hard to predict, because we all come in a spectrum of possibilities, not either-or, but many shades of colors. On the one extreme is the totally self-absorbed selfish to the point of social psychopath, like the serial killers, etc. On the other extreme is the totally self-denied, who depends on everyone else for their opinions, their decisions, etc. I think most healthy adults fall into the middle somewhere, with a clear and effective balance between self-love and love for others.
Lance-I don't understand how you feel my posts can "push" -even though you meant that in a very constructive way. Am not an aggressive
person, so when people have a reaction, I really think it's because I'm the odd man out, the outsider of the tribal village and so, am unaware
that anything from that perspective jolts others. Your reactions- a serious and decent hearing of someone else's point of view, can make you
feel pushed, but that's you at work, not me. Your own taking other people seriously. And this is so very superior to those who hear a different
point of view and quietly..gnash their teeth. You are a better person for that, and it will keep you a step ahead of those less open-minded
to anything different.
Please don't misunderstand my use of the word "push" in the aggressive (pushy) sense. I meant it as a compliment. As in pushing the envelop of performance, by the Top Guns in the naval aviator sense. If I recall correctly, you had some naval background, and I thought you might pick up on that. I did use the phrase pushing the envelop, did I not?
In any case, I do NOT think you are aggressive. You are indeed out there on the leading edge and that's perfectly good for you and for society. We need pioneers who take us to unexplored territories.
Thank you for your compliments. I strenuously force myself to be open-minded. Sometimes I have been accused of the opposite, which really hurt. Your acute observations are much appreciated.
Which reminds me--Ayashae's very courageous post had many of the elements we have been covering. Which just strengthens my belief that
there are universal themes of great importance in BBM, and we are right to keep exploring and keep loving, and keep...looking for more.
I totally agree with you that Brokeback Mountain is a classic movie that will merit study in university. The themes are as universal as those in Shakespeare's plays. If you ever want to write a text book etc, please feel free to call on me. I'd love to do anything connected with Brokeback Mountain. It would be a labor of love.
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Don't know about trying for a textbook-not qualified. But, Lance, I sure do appreciate it when you and I accidentally collaborate, as in,
I do an ungainly, complicated post and, to my great relief, you untangle it. I go---phew, saved by Lance.
Anyway, am not up to much of value on this topic tonight. Have been wallowing in old, romantic songs. The latest- "If I Loved You..", from
one of those older Broadway shows. In the song, he expresses the greatest of all loves, but hides behind the tentative, qualifying "if".
And I see Ennis and Jack doing that, constantly upholding and signalling their love over the years, and yet, like the song, qualifying and
cloaking the possible depth of the love. Dancing around the central issue, always leaving an avenue of escape, if not loved as much in return.
Of no use, tonight, but did want to thank you for saving my hide, several times, from posts I had made that were not so orderly as they should
have been. It's usually tpe who does the mercy work when I get unreadable.
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Don't know about trying for a textbook-not qualified. But, Lance, I sure do appreciate it when you and I accidentally collaborate, as in,
I do an ungainly, complicated post and, to my great relief, you untangle it. I go---phew, saved by Lance.
Anyway, am not up to much of value on this topic tonight. Have been wallowing in old, romantic songs. The latest- "If I Loved You..", from
one of those older Broadway shows. In the song, he expresses the greatest of all loves, but hides behind the tentative, qualifying "if".
And I see Ennis and Jack doing that, constantly upholding and signalling their love over the years, and yet, like the song, qualifying and
cloaking the possible depth of the love. Dancing around the central issue, always leaving an avenue of escape, if not loved as much in return.
Of no use, tonight, but did want to thank you for saving my hide, several times, from posts I had made that were not so orderly as they should
have been. It's usually tpe who does the mercy work when I get unreadable.
Goodness gracious, Tony, I didn't do much, and certainly not up to the scholarly standard that tpe puts into his classical posts. Your post was well organized and eloquent, perhaps not up to your own demanding standards, but certainly up to par.
I love what you write about Ennis and Jack dancing around their love for each other, with so many hypothetical and euphemistically speaking hyperbole. They don't say much about their feelings for each other, but they keep hinting at it, waiting for the other to pick up the cue and make the commitment. When Jack took the plunge by the river, he got shot down. All the hinting and dancing kept their relationship going, but also stressed Jack to no end. Poor Jack.
You mentioned a bout of PBS recently. Old romantic songs may not be the best medicine. I hope they don't have the same effect on you as Kenny Chesney on me. I found Josh Groban's spiritually uplifting songs, and Ronan Keating's honest insight into relationships to be much better shields against PBS. Just my two cents worth.
Hope you feel better. :ghug: :c) ^f^
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LC, you have just hit on exactly why I love Jack. He loved one person steadfastly his whole adult life. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't particularly sophisticated. For him, it was simple - I love Ennis, everything revolves around that.
I wish I could believe a little bit more the rest of what you say, but I just don't see it happening. I don't know that there was anything Jack could say to unlock Ennis's resistance to having a life together. Not his resistance to Jack, which was obviously shattered years before, but to the idea that they had any viable options. It's easy to be frustrated with Ennis, but it's also part of why I feel so protective towards him, and hurt for him so much. He was bound by lessons that were just too deeply ingrained to be able to see around. This is also why I love him - because, even with all of that going on inside of him, he did, as you pointed out, sacrifice and make the effort to keep seeing Jack all those years.
I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ::) ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.
And you're absolutely right about two things:
- It's not all Ennis's fault. He's as much a victim of circumstance as Jack. It's just that he was the one who had the power to change things, in appearance. The reality is that he simply couldn't exercise that power, and he didn't even know he had it.
- "The irresistible force met the immovable object.
It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain."
Beautifully said. :)
It was quite difficult to get Ennis, no? That fact that Jack largely succeeded belies the inherent difficulty, IMO.
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There are so many topics in this thread...I'd like to comment many of all them, but I don't know where to start: this is like a tree branching all the time, and I'm not as fast! Anyway I agree with most of the opinion, and even when I don't, the arguments are beautifully and also consistently explained ^f^
I don't see Jack as being overly self-centered or self-absorbed though (I know, no one is surprised by that ::) ). Part of the reason that he is unaware of the magnitude of Ennis's sacrifice over the years is precisely because of that stoicism of Ennis's. The confrontation scene shows us, and them, just how little they each understand of the other's feelings - Jack doesn't realize how difficult this has been on Ennis, Ennis doesn't realize how much his resistance has hurt Jack. They've each been wrapped up in their own pain and personal frame of reference that they weren't able to see things from the other's eyes. This conversation was quite an awakening for both of them, I'm sure.
I don't think Jack was self centered either, but the opposite, I think he's patient and generous, and gives the best of him, for 20 years to make their relationship work. IMO this is because he understands, better than anyone else Ennis' handicaps, that's why I think Jack knows what Ennis's going through, and that's why he's understanding, subtle and extremely tactful, trying to convince Ennis to get 'a sweet life together'. Maybe I'm going agaisnt the mainstream here, but IMO, Jack is in touch with his emotions, his capability for communication is much higher than Ennis'. In many scenes, I find Jack's dealing skilfully with the circumstances...I don't know if I'm explaining my point clearly I've got the feeling that when speaking about emotions, Jack is an adult trying to be careful with the emotions of a kid...Hope this won't be misunderstood.
But we must take into account that after 20 years, he can lose this control, he's a human being, his patience is not infinite, he's tired, frustrated, deeply sad, and I'm sure that many times, he's got doubts about Ennis' feelings. Maybe, for the 1st time in 20 years Jack is starting to lose his unwearying faith in Ennis, that's why Jack tries to take him to the limit, show him a true possibility of losing him, “a way to rouse Ennis into action” as tpe said.
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I am sorry to be harsh on Jack here, but it's not all of Ennis' fault.
His innate stoicism made the situation worse. If he had needed to be with Jack more often, Jack might have been able to convince him to move in together sooner. The irresistible force met the immovable object.
It was only after Jack's death, that the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain.
You're right my friend, it's not Ennis fault either. Despite all I've just said about Jack, it doesn't mean we can put the blame in Ennis. No way.
We have spoken about it in other threads right? IMO, Ennis has suffered the “abandonment” of everyone he’s ever loved when he was a kid, when he was very vulnerable: In those moments every experience leaves a deep trace in our personality… those traces become our second nature. Only with a lot of help and a lot of self analysis, we can be aware of them. That wasn’t Ennis case, of course.
Tony said “he (Ennis) learned to survive by keeping to himself. And along comes Jack, a direct threat to that way of life” I totally agree with that, and I must add, this way of life was, as I said above, his second nature. Not a habit, not a conscious decision, that attitude was himself. That’s why he says ‘it’s because of you that I’m nothing, I’m nowhere’: He’s betraying all his mind patterns, his self-concept, his so called values, opinions…
Ennis’ resistance to a sweet life is not cowardice, it’s the fear of alienation. By accepting he loves Jack, everything he is would crumble. How couldn’t we understand that disturbing scary possibility? He’ll need to wonder: who am I? The implications of that situation, for Ennis have existential proportions. No wonder he needs to protect himself against it, with all the weapons at his hand.
Ok this is getting too obscure, and I’ve already written too long, again sorryyyy...I’ll better finish this post here :) Thanks
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[...]
I don't think Jack was self centered either, but the opposite, I think he's patient and generous, and gives the best of him, for 20 years to make their relationship work. IMO this is because he understands, better than anyone else Ennis' handicaps, that's why I think Jack knows what Ennis's going through, and that's why he's understanding, subtle and extremely tactful, trying to convince Ennis to get 'a sweet life together'. Maybe I'm going agaisnt the mainstream here, but IMO, Jack is in touch with his emotions, his capability for communication is much higher than Ennis'. In many scenes, I find Jack's dealing skilfully with the circumstances...I don't know if I'm explaining my point clearly I've got the feeling that when speaking about emotions, Jack is an adult trying to be careful with the emotions of a kid...Hope this won't be misunderstood.
But we must take into account that after 20 years, he can lose this control, he's a human being, his patience is not infinite, he's tired, frustrated, deeply sad, and I'm sure that many times, he's got doubts about Ennis' feelings. Maybe, for the 1st time in 20 years Jack is starting to lose his unwearying faith in Ennis, that's why Jack tries to take him to the limit, show him a true possibility of losing him, “a way to rouse Ennis into action” as tpe said.
I agree with you and am afraid that I was misunderstood. I agree that Jack had been patient and kind throughout the beginning of their 20 years together. I was referring ONLY to their last meeting, and perhaps after the divorce scene, the Mexico scene, the Thanksgiving scene. There was a progressive trend for Jack to become more self-centered and alienated from Ennis. Not that I blame him. He had been a saint until Ennis kicked him in the gut with the divorce scene, etc. And as I explained, trying to rouse someone into action by using someone else, to induce jealousy, or whatever, is simply wrong. To threaten ending the relationship is more viable, and Ennis will probably respond better. Problem is, Jack did not want to end it either. His "I wish I knew how to quit you" is exactly the sentiment, the short leash that he spoke of, not of Ennis' doing, but his own desires.
And I agree with you that Jack had been the adult in the relationship, treating Ennis' child gently, until the last few years. IMO.
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You're right my friend, it's not Ennis fault either. Despite all I've just said about Jack, it doesn't mean we can put the blame in Ennis. No way.
We have spoken about it in other threads right? IMO, Ennis has suffered the “abandonment” of everyone he’s ever loved when he was a kid, when he was very vulnerable: In those moments every experience leaves a deep trace in our personality… those traces become our second nature. Only with a lot of help and a lot of self analysis, we can be aware of them. That wasn’t Ennis case, of course.
Tony said “he (Ennis) learned to survive by keeping to himself. And along comes Jack, a direct threat to that way of life” I totally agree with that, and I must add, this way of life was, as I said above, his second nature. Not a habit, not a conscious decision, that attitude was himself. That’s why he says ‘it’s because of you that I’m nothing, I’m nowhere’: He’s betraying all his mind patterns, his self-concept, his so called values, opinions…
Ennis’ resistance to a sweet life is not cowardice, it’s the fear of alienation. By accepting he loves Jack, everything he is would crumble. How couldn’t we understand that disturbing scary possibility? He’ll need to wonder: who am I? The implications of that situation, for Ennis have existential proportions. No wonder he needs to protect himself against it, with all the weapons at his hand.
Ok this is getting too obscure, and I’ve already written too long, again sorryyyy...I’ll better finish this post here :) Thanks
Not at all, dear friend. You are very clear, and I appreciate the excellent analysis. I agree that Ennis was not the kind of person who had a lot of help and a lot of self-analysis to understand his fear of alienation, etc. He was who he was, yet he accepted his love for Jack, even unspoken. I don't think he wanted to protect himself from Jack. That part of your post I disagree with. I agree that he did not perceive himself as queer, and therefore would not pursue the lifestyle that Jack proposed. He would only accept Jack on his own term, however distorted it may be, it is his reality.
What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.
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I agree with you and am afraid that I was misunderstood. I agree that Jack had been patient and kind throughout the beginning of their 20 years together. I was referring ONLY to their last meeting, and perhaps after the divorce scene, the Mexico scene, the Thanksgiving scene. There was a progressive trend for Jack to become more self-centered and alienated from Ennis. Not that I blame him. He had been a saint until Ennis kicked him in the gut with the divorce scene, etc. And as I explained, trying to rouse someone into action by using someone else, to induce jealousy, or whatever, is simply wrong. To threaten ending the relationship is more viable, and Ennis will probably respond better. Problem is, Jack did not want to end it either. His "I wish I knew how to quit you" is exactly the sentiment, the short leash that he spoke of, not of Ennis' doing, but his own desires.
I think we meant the same but we're facing the argument from different perspective :) Perhaps some words are backhanded...I just meant that Jack, looking for his interests after 20 years had no negative connotation: 'self-centered' seems to me a negative expresion, but it's something you have to be sometimes, for the sake of the relationshìp.
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Not at all, dear friend. You are very clear, and I appreciate the excellent analysis. I agree that Ennis was not the kind of person who had a lot of help and a lot of self-analysis to understand his fear of alienation, etc. He was who he was, yet he accepted his love for Jack, even unspoken. I don't think he wanted to protect himself from Jack. That part of your post I disagree with. I agree that he did not perceive himself as queer, and therefore would not pursue the lifestyle that Jack proposed. He would only accept Jack on his own term, however distorted it may be, it is his reality
This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that... :s)
He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'
What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.
Here I agree 100% with you...After 20 years, and a big shock, Ennis is able to reach self awareness, to do this self analysis: "the immovable object was moved by the evidence of Jack's love, the irresistible force of nature that finally moved a mountain" as you beautifully said :c)
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What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.
Agreed, especially with the scenes you mention here. Even though I think that there was still fear within Ennis by the end of the movie, I do believe that he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack. Does this make sense?
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This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that... :s)
He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'
An interesting point of view. I must admit that I didn't look at it this way, but this certainly makes sense. I had always wonderedd if I had missed something in Ennis's outburst in the last confrontation. I had always taken that statement from Ennis at face value -- that he had done nothing with his life.
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I think we meant the same but we're facing the argument from different perspective :) Perhaps some words are backhanded...I just meant that Jack, looking for his interests after 20 years had no negative connotation: 'self-centered' seems to me a negative expresion, but it's something you have to be sometimes, for the sake of the relationshìp.
I am not sure I understand the meaning of backhanded words. Perhaps you can be so kind to explain its meaning.
As for the negative connotation of self-centered, there isn't any until the context is specified. As you said, sometimes it is necessary to be self-centered to protect the relationship, as in this case with Jack.
I guess in a way, I did perceive a "LITTLE" of negative selfishness (which always has negative connotations). Ennis is so used to doing the little things for Jack, like at their last scene, with Ennis helping Jack with his saddle to the truck, almost in an attitude of servitude. And Jack took it for granted, without even a word of thanks. And cowboy or not, there was less and less affection between them, unlike 'em earlier days when they would horseplay on the mountain and joke with each other. Now they just complain about this or that. Mostly Jack complaining and Ennis agreeing. It was a relationship getting poisoned by Jack's increasing feeling of rejection from Ennis, whether perceived or real. Not that I blame Jack, just the reality of a long-distance relationship carried on over thousands of miles.
So a little shaking up was necessary. I guess it is easy as armchair lovers to say what Jack and Ennis should have done to make their relationship better. It is a lot harder to make love work. And the tragedy of it all, is that Ennis was almost there, when Jack was killed. Ennis had a lot of help from Cassie, whether he or she knew it or not. She was emotionally Ennis' teacher.
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[...]
What makes the movie a treasure to me, is precisely the self-discovery for Ennis, first at the diner with Cassie's "Girls don't fall in love with fun", and then the closet with the two shirts. The resulting transformation for the man, as seen in his ability to related to Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr in the trailer, is a fantastic testimonial for the benefits of self-awareness, self-understanding, self-analysis.
Agreed, especially with the scenes you mention here. Even though I think that there was still fear within Ennis by the end of the movie, I do believe that he was no longer afraid of his love for Jack. Does this make sense?
I don't believe Ennis was ever afraid of his love for Jack after SNIT. He was only afraid of the lifestyle and social consequences of that lifestyle. By the reunion scene, any doubt of his love for Jack has evaporated. Ennis was hooked. Jack was hooked. They were Brokeback Mountained.
The trouble was Ennis did not have an alternative to how to handle it. Jack's question in the motel scene, "what do we do now?" was never satisfactorily answered in Ennis' mind. He was always stuck. Not until he met Cassie, and Jack's Ma, was he able to accept that love in the social sense, because he finally felt accepted, as a person, without condition. Cassie showed him that he was loved, in spite of all the things he did to her (not answering her calls, etc) and Jack's Ma simple was compassion and love personified. He had no place to hide from them, and finally faced up to the two shirts. It was a culmination of a long journey of self-discovery.
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This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that... :s)
He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'
[...]
Yes, I agree and sorry that I misunderstood. I see what you mean now. Are you referring to the feeling he got when they parted back in '63, when Ennis got that empty feeling, he got sick in the alley. His loneliness became so overwhelming, that he was nothing, he was nowhere. He had so embedded his own identity with Jack, that without Jack, he was nothing and nowhere. If he had moved in with Jack, as Jack had wanted, then he would be even more dependent on Jack. He was afraid of that, as evident by the riverside dish washing scene when Jack told him to move to Texas, and he retorted with why not have you and Lureen adopt the girls etc. He wanted independence, which cowboy doesn't?, and he was more and more embedded into this relationship with Jack that by his nature, loving and lonely, he was afraid of losing his own identity, however distorted. On Brokeback Mountain, he is always the better cowboy, the man. Jack was dependent on him for many things. So the relationship was at least temporarily and circumstantially in balance. Outside of that, Jack became more and more dominant, financially and emotionally, so Ennis was even more afraid. In someway, Ennis never fully trusted Jack.
In any relationship, trust is always difficult. Jack's foray into Mexico, etc, did not help the situation. It is not a matter of blame; it is a matter of taking responsibility for one's own actions. There may be reasons for what Jack had done, but at the same time, to just excuse the actions would not help the relationship, either. Ennis was afraid of losing Jack, and facing the nothingness again. Jack did not alleviate that fear but made it worse in that last scene. When Ennis found the two shirts, after a long grieving period, he finally learned to trust Jack.
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This time I was misunderstood...I didn't mean he wants to protect himself from Jack, but from "the nothing and nowhere", I don't know if I was clear at that... :s)
He accepts Jack, as you said, in a distorted way, in order to protect his reality, the only reality he's ever known. Without that reality, without that distorsion, 'he's nothing and nowhere'
[...]
An interesting point of view. I must admit that I didn't look at it this way, but this certainly makes sense. I had always wonderedd if I had missed something in Ennis's outburst in the last confrontation. I had always taken that statement from Ennis at face value -- that he had done nothing with his life.
Yup. It's what I love about this forum. Everyone brings something different, and I always learn something new and valuable.
Thanks, ayashae. :ghug: :^^) :c)
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I don't believe Ennis was ever afraid of his love for Jack after SNIT. He was only afraid of the lifestyle and social consequences of that lifestyle. By the reunion scene, any doubt of his love for Jack has evaporated. Ennis was hooked. Jack was hooked. They were Brokeback Mountained.
The trouble was Ennis did not have an alternative to how to handle it. Jack's question in the motel scene, "what do we do now?" was never satisfactorily answered in Ennis' mind. He was always stuck. Not until he met Cassie, and Jack's Ma, was he able to accept that love in the social sense, because he finally felt accepted, as a person, without condition. Cassie showed him that he was loved, in spite of all the things he did to her (not answering her calls, etc) and Jack's Ma simple was compassion and love personified. He had no place to hide from them, and finally faced up to the two shirts. It was a culmination of a long journey of self-discovery.
I had wondered though about the meanings one can pin on Ennis's statements: "It's you that made me like this", etc. during the last confrontation. I had always felt that there was a part of Ennis that tried to distance itself from the love of Jack. I think I talked about this with you somewhere else, no? Earlier in thie thread, perhaps? I must check! :)
But I agree that then fear also carried a socila dimension -- of the wider world's disapproval. But I somehow felt that there was also something inside him that also disapproved.
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I think we meant the same but we're facing the argument from different perspective :) Perhaps some words are backhanded...I just meant that Jack, looking for his interests after 20 years had no negative connotation: 'self-centered' seems to me a negative expresion, but it's something you have to be sometimes, for the sake of the relationshìp.
I am not sure I understand the meaning of backhanded words. Perhaps you can be so kind to explain its meaning.
As for the negative connotation of self-centered, there isn't any until the context is specified. As you said, sometimes it is necessary to be self-centered to protect the relationship, as in this case with Jack.
I've just read my paragraph again, and you're right, it's not clear. What I meant was simpler than that: After 20 years being mostly altruistic, a bit of selfishness was good to balance the situation :)
As regards the negative connotation of 'self centered': When I translated that expresion, didn't sound good to me :-\\ That's why I didn't like those words. But it was just a subjective perception...Actually I didn't know which is the connotation of that expresion in English but, if you said that it depends on the context, I take it for granted ;)
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Guys, your last posts have made me noticed of something about Ennis that I hadn't seen before :)
I have to go now, but I'll post a bit later...Hope the discussion won't develop too much or I'll get lost again! ;D
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Yes, I agree and sorry that I misunderstood. I see what you mean now. Are you referring to the feeling he got when they parted back in '63, when Ennis got that empty feeling, he got sick in the alley. His loneliness became so overwhelming, that he was nothing, he was nowhere. He had so embedded his own identity with Jack, that without Jack, he was nothing and nowhere. If he had moved in with Jack, as Jack had wanted, then he would be even more dependent on Jack. He was afraid of that, as evident by the riverside dish washing scene when Jack told him to move to Texas, and he retorted with why not have you and Lureen adopt the girls etc. He wanted independence, which cowboy doesn't?, and he was more and more embedded into this relationship with Jack that by his nature, loving and lonely, he was afraid of losing his own identity, however distorted. On Brokeback Mountain, he is always the better cowboy, the man. Jack was dependent on him for many things. So the relationship was at least temporarily and circumstantially in balance. Outside of that, Jack became more and more dominant, financially and emotionally, so Ennis was even more afraid. In someway, Ennis never fully trusted Jack.
In any relationship, trust is always difficult. Jack's foray into Mexico, etc, did not help the situation. It is not a matter of blame; it is a matter of taking responsibility for one's own actions. There may be reasons for what Jack had done, but at the same time, to just excuse the actions would not help the relationship, either. Ennis was afraid of losing Jack, and facing the nothingness again. Jack did not alleviate that fear but made it worse in that last scene. When Ennis found the two shirts, after a long grieving period, he finally learned to trust Jack.
Wow. I have to admit that I don't see it that way at all. It's just not my interpretation of things, but I find your analysis fascinating nevertheless. Thanks for sharing. As you said, everyone brings something different to the discussions and I love hearing all of the theories and insights. :)
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I had wondered though about the meanings one can pin on Ennis's statements: "It's you that made me like this", etc. during the last confrontation. I had always felt that there was a part of Ennis that tried to distance itself from the love of Jack. I think I talked about this with you somewhere else, no? Earlier in thie thread, perhaps? I must check! :)
But I agree that then fear also carried a socila dimension -- of the wider world's disapproval. But I somehow felt that there was also something inside him that also disapproved.
I agree, Thomas. As much as a big part of his heart was unlocked by both SNIT and the reunion, I don't think that Ennis was fully freed of his inner battle until Jack died. The force of that knowledge and how he felt about it, followed by the discovery of the shirts, put the final piece in place for him, imo.
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Oh, gosh-I wonder if this will stir up a hornet's nest. Seems to me, that though Jack clearly was the more romantic of the two, Ennis
was the more emotional.
I keep coming back to the breaking camp, always. It was Ennis who grieved on the hill, whereas Jack SEEMED to be nonchalant about it all-
no big deal. Maybe he stole the shirt after the fight because that was HIS first real clue Ennis loved him (enough to go into a rage). Even so,
it's Ennis grieving, Ennis going into a rage, and Ennis later retching.
We do see Jack weeping on the way to Mexico and we do know Ennis was the love of his life, but as far as emotional outbursts, it's Ennis.
Even at the last meeting- Ennis cracking up, under pressure from Jack.
And what a sequence of scenes---in the Dozy Embrace, it's like Jack's drained-he can't fight for their love anymore, he can't go for a part-time
love. And what I have to call the transformation scene, shortly thereafter, where first he's looking dreamily away, as Ennis goes to load the
horses, and the harsh transformation as Ennis leaves. He'd had enough. One face of love fades into one of extreme resentment.
Jack-romantic, a dreamer. Ennis full of repressed love, repressed emotions (and no-not the gay issue-the LOVE issue). And yet, it was
probably Jack's romanticism that provoked the love, the tender attempt to wash the bruise after the bear incident, the gentle words said
when relaxing by streams, these tripped Ennis' wires. And Ennis' outbursts tripped Jack's wires. Two forms of signalling love, but not the
native language. Romantic words from Ennis-these might have gotten Jack to find some better scheme. Outburst of raw, volcanic emotion
(not resentment) from Jack might have moved Ennis to understand, before the discovery of the shirts.
They spoke two different languages of love. One, romantic, the other violently emotional. It was enough to CAUSE love, but not enough
to CONVINCE the other. I really believe neither one knew how deeply the other loved. Maybe we guys are just....dumb. But it didn't help,
the romantic vs. the emotional. Each could hear the other language, but couldn't speak it.
This is, maybe putting it all under a microscope, to note the difference, but IMO, it's there. And lacking the same language, one can never
be fully sure.
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Oh, gosh-I wonder if this will stir up a hornet's nest. Seems to me, that though
Jack clearly was the more romantic of the two, Ennis was the more emotional.
I keep coming back to the breaking camp, always. It was Ennis who grieved on the hill, whereas Jack SEEMED to be nonchalant about it all-
no big deal. Maybe he stole the shirt after the fight because that was HIS first real clue Ennis loved him (enough to go into a rage). Even so,
it's Ennis grieving, Ennis going into a rage, and Ennis later retching.
We do see Jack weeping on the way to Mexico and we do know Ennis was the love of his life, but as far as emotional outbursts, it's Ennis.
Even at the last meeting- Ennis cracking up, under pressure from Jack.
And what a sequence of scenes---in the Dozy Embrace, it's like Jack's drained-he can't fight for their love anymore, he can't go for a part-time
love. And what I have to call the transformation scene, shortly thereafter, where first he's looking dreamily away, as Ennis goes to load the
horses, and the harsh transformation as Ennis leaves. He'd had enough. One face of love fades into one of extreme resentment.
Jack-romantic, a dreamer. Ennis full of repressed love, repressed emotions (and no-not the gay issue-the LOVE issue). And yet, it was
probably Jack's romanticism that provoked the love, the tender attempt to wash the bruise after the bear incident, the gentle words said
when relaxing by streams, these tripped Ennis' wires. And Ennis' outbursts tripped Jack's wires. ( I agree with this, Jack seems surprised by Ennis' passion, both in SNIT, and reunion ) Two forms of signalling love, but not the
native language. Romantic words from Ennis-these might have gotten Jack to find some better scheme. Outburst of raw, volcanic emotion
(not resentment) from Jack might have moved Ennis to understand, before the discovery of the shirts.
They spoke two different languages of love. One, romantic, the other violently emotional. It was enough to CAUSE love, but not enough
to CONVINCE the other. I really believe neither one knew how deeply the other loved. Maybe we guys are just....dumb. But it didn't help,
the romantic vs. the emotional. Each could hear the other language, but couldn't speak it.
This is, maybe putting it all under a microscope, to note the difference, but IMO, it's there. And lacking the same language, one can never
be fully sure.
Amazing, Tony. I knew I can count on you to bring new ideas to the table. I see what you are saying about Jack being the romantic dreamer, and Ennis being the devoted emotional lover. I agree with this. As far as the language of love being two different dialect for the guys, I don't know enough about this to really comment. I will watch the movie again this weekend, and pay closer attention to their interactions. It would certainly explain their difficulty in communication.
Then again, I am not sure I understand the romantic language of love myself, either. :c) Thanks for leading me into new territories yet again. It's always an adventure with you.
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Thanks lance and everyone for your responses, comments, and ideas.
I do somehow feel that Tony's comment has more than a grain of truth:
Jack clearly was the more romantic of the two, Ennis was the more emotional.
I know we can't generalize too much, but I do think that this touches on the truth. Another way of saying this is that Jack was more emotive while Ennis was more emotional. That is, Jack was more demonstrative, whereas Ennis may react very strongly.
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Guys, I'd say I agree 100% with the ideas you've put in these 3 last posts, I guess Tony's found the right words ^f^
Yesterday while I read your messages, I told you have made me see Ennis slightly different. It was about Ennis' passion. He's a man of restrained feelings (introspected, I mean..) and that makes him like a 'pressure cooker' of love, fear...If you open the lid suddenly, you've got a explosion.
I'm more of an Ennis type, maybe that's why I appreciate and love Jack's qualities <^( and perhaps I was missing or underestimating Ennis passion. I've got so many things to comment with you about this, but I must go out now. When I come back home I'll come straight here to keep reading you :ghug: Thank you guys
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Whenever we go really deeper into BBM, I sometimes remember Lightning Flat's thread where she wondered if we didn't over-do it and was
all this a healthy love or an obsession. A very good question, but I've always felt a great work of art is identifiable by the endless interest
and constant re-working. So have never felt bad about delving so deeply into the various aspects of BBM and will go ahead and add some more
today. On the subject of communication between Ennis and Jack (which MPJ had once said, was awful).
Am thinking in terms of what I call- "translations", or, what we really mean when we say something. Here are some examples:
At a singles bar, a guy says: you really have beautiful eyes. Translation: How quick can we get to my apartment for sex?
She goes: You're kind of interesting... Translation: Do you have a steady job, are you a jerk, and is this ANOTHER mistake?
Have a nice day! Translation-am very busy, next customer please......
Real Estate agent- You have SUCH a beautiful house! Translation- I wonder how quick I can flip this deal for a commission?
So, maybe you get my point. A huge amount of what we say isn't necessarily false (because we know the translations), but isn't
really reliable. And was any of this social falseness, to which we are so accustomed, it's second nature, was any of it a trouble to our two lovers?
For example-How did Ennis see the offer of getting a ranch together? If any % of that was seen as a business deal between 2 friends, even
a slight %, everything is altered.
Just about every statement between 2 people, then, is subject to these "translations" and we can get them wrong. Can anybody think of
key, central statements between the two, where this would apply?
Well, probably a dead end, as I may not have found anything. Do know, in an unrelated area, that it's very possible, from my earlier post
on Jack-romantic, Ennis-emotional, that it is very plausible Jack did not know the depth of Ennis' love until the fight on BBM, and he did not
have time enough to re-translate all previous statements and behavior, and so-stole the shirt.
Am in the area of communication between the two and it just may be too boring or too difficult. But have given it a go.
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Tony, you might be interested in this thread.
Double Meanings in BBM Lines.
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4413.msg132769#msg132769 (http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=4413.msg132769#msg132769)
It has expanded recently to double meanings in other areas too - symbols, settings, etc. I think it kind of ties in with what you were talking about here. :)
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Guys, I'd say I agree 100% with the ideas you've put in these 3 last posts, I guess Tony's found the right words ^f^
Yesterday while I read your messages, I told you have made me see Ennis slightly different. It was about Ennis' passion. He's a man of restrained feelings (introspected, I mean..) and that makes him like a 'pressure cooker' of love, fear...If you open the lid suddenly, you've got a explosion.
I'm more of an Ennis type, maybe that's why I appreciate and love Jack's qualities <^( and perhaps I was missing or underestimating Ennis passion. I've got so many things to comment with you about this, but I must go out now. When I come back home I'll come straight here to keep reading you :ghug: Thank you guys
Ennis's brand of reticence is certainly a mark of very strong inhibitions -- the "pressure cooker" image is very apt, in that it is not the absence of feeling that is at fault here; rather, it is the fear of leeting them out.
I'm more of an Ennis type, maybe that's why I appreciate and love Jack's qualities... ayashae, you echo here something that I said long ago. I am gratified that it also did cross your mind.
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Ennis and Jack both defined themselves as straight to allow themselves to deny the obvious and continue to have sex as a continuation of a "one shot thing". Fear of love and fear of not getting it in return was in full play at this point in time. As the summer continued, their love deepened and by not acknowledging it they could allow it to grow unfettered. Reality was a great equalizer and weighed in heavilly when they were told to bring the sheep down early. The fear of never being loved again reared its ugly head and sent Ennis into such turmoil he was nearly paralyzed as it loomed up squarely in his mind. To acknowledge he loved Jack was going to break their tacit agreement with each other and to risk losing the all the love he had gained and felt. And even more frightening was the possibility not get any it of returned. For Jack making light of it was a temporary way of denial and sidestepping it for the moment. When he lassoed Ennis it was to get him moving because of the time constraints and also to engage Ennis in some reassuring physical contact possibly even a little loving. The anger that welled up in both of them was arose out of this fear for they knew they were not going to be able to make love again possibly forever.
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Ennis and Jack both defined themselves as straight to allow themselves to deny the obvious and continue to have sex as a continuation of a "one shot thing". Fear of love and fear of not getting it in return was in full play at this point in time. As the summer continued, their love deepened and by not acknowledging it they could allow it to grow unfettered. Reality was a great equalizer and weighed in heavilly when they were told to bring the sheep down early. The fear of never being loved again reared its ugly head and sent Ennis into such turmoil he was nearly paralyzed as it loomed up squarely in his mind. To acknowledge he loved Jack was going to break their tacit agreement with each other and to risk losing the all the love he had gained and felt. And even more frightening was the possibility not get any it of returned. For Jack making light of it was a temporary way of denial and sidestepping it for the moment. When he lassoed Ennis it was to get him moving because of the time constraints and also to engage Ennis in some reassuring physical contact possibly even a little loving. The anger that welled up in both of them was arose out of this fear for they knew they were not going to be able to make love again possibly forever.
I do tend to agree that a large part of this was a symptom of denial -- of the dear of facing up to what was really between the two of them. I feel that the denial was very much a part of what drove each of them to anger. For Ennis, it was perhaps anger (or fear, or both) of himself -- for allowing himself to fall so deeply in love. For Jack, it was anger (or fear, or both) of being unable to move on -- for allowing himself to fester because Ennis would not budge.
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Well, I guess if a topic lingers in your mind long enough, you might come to different conclusions, and I had been headed there, some time
back.
It was on the matter of credibility as a factor in fear of love, meaning, you just can't be sure exactly what the real feelings are of the other.
It's kind of gloomy, and I don't want to linger there, but deception and falseness are so much a part of the human condition that we just take
it for granted. The film shows a lot of deception, from Aguirre's deception of the park service, to the affair being kept hidden from the two
wives. As I said in an earlier post- Have a nice day!, really means--Next customer, please....
In that context-lack of credibility, we could find most of the problems of the world, but certainly, in how Ennis and Jack could not fully
believe the depth of the others love.
Am thinking of three particular scenes, to flesh this out. Ennis erupting into rage about all those things he didn't know, but might come to
know...shows clearly he always considered that, although for him, it was only Jack, he had had some sense that, sexually, the reverse was not
true. And if Jack had been fooling around sexually, with others, then the fullness of love wasn't there, from his point of view. It would seem
Ennis tied sex to love, whereas Jack saw the sex as only part of the love.
Then the scene where Jack sees Ennis going off, that last time, and his face is no longer dreamy, but harsh. Some part of that would easily
be that Ennis was no longer credible-the love was not deep enough to make changes. And the very telling scene where Ennis accepts, quietly,
as Jack's father describes the "other" guy that was to come up and settle in to Lightning Flat. It's as if he'd always supposed that would be
something he'd find out some day.
So, whatever fear of love, or fear of risking telling how deeply you loved, there then is that terrible part of our human condition- so much
deceit, often so casually, credibility always would be a problem. Both men knew of a world where sex didn't mean eternal love, and both men
knew....people can't always be fully trusted. That's where I've ended up, myself, on seeing the tragedy. Not so much failure to communicate,
as the difficulty in believing, and therefore, fear of saying more, doing more, to make it work. Those 3 scenes, are for me, evidence of lack
of credibility being a fundamental problem.
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So, whatever fear of love, or fear of risking telling how deeply you loved, there then is that terrible part of our human condition- so much
deceit, often so casually, credibility always would be a problem. Both men knew of a world where sex didn't mean eternal love, and both men
knew....people can't always be fully trusted. That's where I've ended up, myself, on seeing the tragedy. Not so much failure to communicate,
as the difficulty in believing, and therefore, fear of saying more, doing more, to make it work. Those 3 scenes, are for me, evidence of lack
of credibility being a fundamental problem.
Very well said, Tony. Even the fear to love and be loved is in itself an artifact of the human condition. In a way, it is a part of self-deception -- the ability to deny what one actually feels about oneself and another person.
And I do point out that the collapse of credibility is very much a by-product of the fear to love. The fear breeds distrust, and ultimately, disillusionment, as in Jack's parting look at a departing Ennis. These are all interconnected, and the human condition (the mythical "fall") that is a part of us all understands that credibility can only go so far as how the other is willing to trust. It is a matter of faith -- either lost, or found.
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Very well said, guys. O0
I always try to take a more positive approach to what Jack and Ennis had, both because I'm a romantic at heart, and because it hurts too much to do otherwise for me.
While acknowledging that all of what has just been said holds a great deal of water, I would add that, as with the positive moments in their relationship, these realizations about each other, and the disappointing feelings that accompany them, were most likely transient. Ugh, I'm not saying this right. Bear with me. What I mean to say is that all of those feelings, the good ones and the bad ones, the joys and the heartaches, the understandings and the miscommunications, the connections and the distances between them, made up the relationship that they had. Much like the structure of their lives - short weeks together living one life, in between long stretches of time living separate lives - their relationship was full of moments of clarity and connectedness, offset by their doubts, fears, and disappointments. So in these moments that we're discussing, those fears they had come to the surface. I think they are always inside each of them somewhere, but are not always acknowledged, or even felt. Just as the moments of affection, and gratitude for having each other, are real, but are not always at the surface of their thoughts or feelings. I guess I'm trying to say is that these were two very fragmented men, who could not move forward to a place of unity or freedom because of those fears that ruled them, but at the same time were tied together by a bond that each thought was worth the price they paid to maintain it. And that it was the strength of those times that they felt good about, and embraced the positive feelings in, that allowed them to endure those times when they were engulfed in fear and doubt.
And this is why I think I cling to Annie Proulx's words at the end of the confrontation scene in the original short story:
"...they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
In other words, this is how their relationship had always been and would always be, for as long as it lasted. Even at the end, imo, neither was willing to let go of what they had, in spite of their fears or any other emotion that came to light during their fight. It was just a brief airing of what they'd both known all along.
They were, in fact, defined, both by the fears they were able to overcome to be together at all, and by those that they couldn't overcome, in order to be together completely.
I hope that made some kind of sense in the end. ??? If not, I blame the cold medication. ::)
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Thanks for bumping this thread again guys, I'm coming back here asap! O0 ^f^
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Your post made plenty of sense, FlowerChild, and you mostly seem to say they worked with what they had, what life had thrown at them,
as best as they could.
And something a little further comes to mind-they never savaged each other brutally, as can happen, even in love. The fight on the mountain
doesn't count (and it was their only physical fight), since both were used to rough ways. They never spited each other. Ennis never really
resented that Jack had done better, financially. There was no intent to hurt. No undermining. Something in your post triggered that memory-
they wanted happiness for the other, and, if we are honest, two people in love can slip into a destructive mode, deliberately. If nothing else,
they got through those many years.....free of what is so natural to the rest of us. One helluva good kind of love, where you never deliberately
hurt the other. And they at least had that.
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Oh wow. I wasn't even (consciously) thinking about that while I wrote that particular post, but you're so right. Whatever else their fears compelled them to do, or not do, intent to inflinct harm was never part of it. And as you said, people can slip into a destructive mode, but they never did. For the most part, they kept their hurt to themselves, internalized it instead of turning it on each other, saving the best of themselves for the other.
One helluva good kind of love indeed. :\'( <^(
Nice post, Tony.
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I also agree that neither of them threw away everything (i.e., between them) even after the last confrontation. But I have a tendency to look at the dark as much as the light, and would say that in the status quo, the fears still loomed large, even to the very end.
I don't know why I dwell on this more instead of the positive -- that they still somehow held on to their love even if to some (Jack?) hope may have died. I guess it is because so long as fear tints that love, there was no easy way out for either of them, as the end of the movie showed...
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I understand what you're saying tpe. I think in the final confrontation when Jack said to Ennis, "so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain, everything is built on that". To me, he said that more out of fear that this is all they will have. That sense of wanting, the wanting of more, and not getting it was frustrating and in a way frightening to him, for the dozy embrace was something he clung to, and settled for.
Just my opinion.
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I agree with your opinion M.
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I also agree. To me, he said that more out of fear that this is all they will have -- wonderful point. I must admit that I had related this more with frustration, but what you say makes perfect sense. After all, Jack's frustration is driven by a fear of never be able to see the dream fulfilled, and the thought of seeking fulfillment beyond Ennis was simply unthinkable till the very end.
I guess I tend to concentrate on Ennis's fear to love a bit more, not realizing that fear also drove Jack in his desire to want more -- the fear of failure and unfulfilled promises -- or shadows of a promise, if we can call it that. In this light, the remembrance of the Dozy Embrace can be though of as a way of coming to terms with what didn't materialize. I guess fear ends where some form of contentment begins.
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I think I tend to concentrate on Ennis's fears more too, probably because they are more obvious, if that's the right way to describe it.
As to:
"After all, Jack's frustration is driven by a fear of never be able to see the dream fulfilled, and the thought of seeking fulfillment beyond Ennis was simply unthinkable till the very end."
Agreed, except that I still don't think, even in the end, that this had changed for him. I just can't. :-\\
Stubborn girl. ::)
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I just can't too Barb!!!
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Manhattangirl, you brought up the part most of us shy away from---what was going on there, after that last time together, and the
confrontation. We know Jack seemed to have found someone else to bring to Lightning Flat, although his dad says that fell through, too, so,
whatever person he turned to, that, too, according to his dad, didn't work out.
We don't want to believe Jack gave up on Ennis, and the other posts reflect that. But you are right, something happened, and maybe since
you, yourself, brought up the Dozy Embrace, that might be where we can find an answer.
The Dozy Embrace very much had Jack going into a dream world, a sleepy enchantment, so different from all the liveliness we had seen in him
before. I want to believe that that was when he internalized the love for Ennis, made it forever sacred, and yet, against the apparent impossibility
of its ever being fulfilled, separated it from real life, which allowed him to look elsewhere.
Another way of saying this is that, in that scene, in those moments, Jack found the only solution available, the emergence of two worlds, one
where he carried within an enchanted, immortal love, that wasn't realizable, and the other world, where he was practical and looked for a
day-to-day partner. In that sense, he was never unfaithful.
Can I get away with this, as a solution? Please let me. That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him. The Dozy Embrace
would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something. A change of some kind. Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way,
we can always know he stayed true.
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The dozy embrace could be Jack's surrendering. He laid down who he was for that moment of happiness, he laid down who he was so it'll be easier for Ennis to merge with him at that moment. So, he just let it be.
Does this make sense to you?
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Can I get away with this, as a solution? Please let me. That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him. The Dozy Embrace
would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something. A change of some kind. Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way,
we can always know he stayed true.
Great post Tony! :clap:
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Thanks, BBBoy---am really trying to let us all find the best reading possible to Jack's last months.
Manhattangirl, that makes sense to me partly, but am still wanting to think and believe, there was more there, as I tried to suggest above.
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Thanks, BBBoy---am really trying to let us all find the best reading possible to Jack's last months.
Manhattangirl, that makes sense to me partly, but am still wanting to think and believe, there was more there, as I tried to suggest above.
Well I think what you and MG girl say makes sense. The look on Jack's face as Ennis drove away after the confrontation at the lake is not one of giving up I think. Which is a testement to Jake's acting. It is enigmatic, the turmoil of the past 20 years is not resolved. The love is still there but the reality of life is also. Jack tried to move on but the all consuming love for Ennis remains. Jack died for /with that I believe. I could discuss this endlessly, but easier face to face than online. LOL I don't have the patience for this media sometimes.
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I know how BBoy feels, all I want to say or express can't squeeze through my fingers on the keyboard sometimes.
I guess is how we see it. Jack was faithful, and always true, his love for Ennis was real, not a dream, we had proof of how deeply he felt, how he saw the love as we find out later. What his fear was realizing that his "unfaithfulness" to Ennis would be his life, and was his reality.
The dozy embrace for me is when Jack first realized he was in love with Ennis, and in remembering that moment of realiazation Jack understood that was as close he ever be to his lover, and accepted it. Maybe that why his story ended there at that moment of understanding.
Is this making sense?
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The dozy embrace could be Jack's surrendering. He laid down who he was for that moment of happiness, he laid down who he was so it'll be easier for Ennis to merge with him at that moment. So, he just let it be.
Does this make sense to you?
It is an act of surrender, IMO. He acknowledgers Ennis fears -- i.e., Ennis's inability to even look at his face during the embrace. But he is willing to forgo even this. "Let be, let be." I think that was his final answer to the question of fear. He was willing to accept it, and live with it.
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It is an act of surrender, IMO. He acknowledgers Ennis fears -- i.e., Ennis's inability to even look at his face during the embrace. But he is willing to forgo even this. "Let be, let be." I think that was his final answer to the question of fear. He was willing to accept it, and live with it.
That's how I feel also.
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Well, this is messy for me. First, had no real intent to revive this thread, was just bumbling around. Also, it's a topic that has a slight tilt
towards sadness. Finally, I do not trust my computer, lately, and so am uneasy about being in a discussion, and, whap!, I can't post.
Even so, MG, your saying the Dozy Embrace was when Jack finally knew the depth of his love and surrendered to it, was the first time you and
I were ever so far apart in what we saw. Have learned a lot in this forum, and one thing was to find out I often had missed seeing something
important that you and others did see, so will not suppose myself correct in differing. But will say what that difference is.
What I saw, in the Dozy Embrace, on Jack's side, was exhaustion, resignation, and sadness, without rejecting the love. He felt he could never
get Ennis to understand he needed full companionship. That scene fades into the Dreamy Gaze, watching Ennis driving off with the horses,
and the Dreamy Gaze has the same elements of the Dozy Embrace plus---understanding of Ennis, and an amazing sweetness and tenderness
which is where I feel he internalized the love, maybe even separated it from his sexual needs, and.......gave up. Not the love. The hope of
getting Ennis to ever change. Then we see the Dreamy Gaze jump to the Bitter Stare, as Ennis is leaving, again, ending that last meeting.
So, for me, that is when Jack internalized the love, as his ideal, but moved to the practical reality of finding a day-to-day companion.
For me, there is no way this was when he finally knew of his love. He knew of his love all along. This was where he had to admit it wasn't
working out. Big difference there.
As I said, I've learned it might not be a matter of who's got it right, but more like, what did each of us see, and so each version is equally valid.
But that's what I saw. Dozy Embrace-exhaustion. Dreamy Gaze-I will love you forever. Bitter Stare-I've got to find a companion other than
Ennis, even if it is loveless.
Many might agree on this. Few would agree with me that Ennis would change. He was exhausted, too. A few more melt-downs, and I believe
he would have found his way home---to living with Jack.
Again, my computer is not always reliable, so I should avoid posting and running, but had to say the above, as those are critical scenes.
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Tony, I meant to comment on your other post about this point. I thought what you said here was absolutely beautiful:
The Dozy Embrace very much had Jack going into a dream world, a sleepy enchantment, so different from all the liveliness we had seen in him
before. I want to believe that that was when he internalized the love for Ennis, made it forever sacred, and yet, against the apparent impossibility
of its ever being fulfilled, separated it from real life, which allowed him to look elsewhere.
Another way of saying this is that, in that scene, in those moments, Jack found the only solution available, the emergence of two worlds, one
where he carried within an enchanted, immortal love, that wasn't realizable, and the other world, where he was practical and looked for a
day-to-day partner. In that sense, he was never unfaithful.
Can I get away with this, as a solution? Please let me. That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him. The Dozy Embrace
would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something. A change of some kind. Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way,
we can always know he stayed true.
And yes, you can get away with that as a solution. It's a wonderful way of looking at it, and equally as credible as any theory I've seen. So I hope it won't sound contradictory for me to say that, like your feelings about MG's post, I recognize this possibility but still can't embrace it for myself. I always go back to that "Let be. Let be." from the short story as a way to tell himself 'Don't dwell on what you can't have. Hang onto what you can. It's still the love of your life and it's still what you'll always need, whatever you can have of it.' He is saddened, yes, and resigned, probably in a way that he never was before, to the limitations of their relationship. But in the end, I just don't believe that while either of them was living, Jack would look for another mate to make a life with. "I wish I knew how to quit you." An acknowledgment that he can't. The remembrance of the dozy embrace. Recognition of the course his heart set 20 years ago, which he'll follow for the rest of his life.
It's no more valid than your interpretation, maybe even less so in terms of being realistic to real life. Nevertheless, I cling to it, because anything else would break my heart. Thanks for sharing yours. I hope you don't mind me sharing mine.
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FlowerChild, we're nearly 1 or 2 words away from 100% agreement (not that that is necessary). For the sake of brevity, I wrote that Jack
had made some changes in his thinking. I left out----I didn't think they would have held up. No matter what else was going on, I can never
believe he would have skipped the next trip.
What I saw was--the melt-down, the exhaustion shown in the Dozy Embrace, the understanding the love would never end, in that Dreamy Gaze,
and in the Bitter Stare, a decision he might just try for a more practical affair. Which he did, according to his father. And though someone else
was willing, it never worked, and that could easily be because Jack's heart wasn't in it, (which is exactly what you have said). He might try,
but he couldn't make it work. The decision couldn't hold. Your instinct is the same as mine that Ennis was, for him, the only one.
I was describing then, the immediate aftermath, shown in each progression of those scenes. A disaster. I left out-it couldn't hold up. Like you,
I can never imagine Jack successfully replacing Ennis. But I think he might have tried, and quickly found no one could replace Ennis. We KNOW
that other attempt fell through and we ought to know that was because Jack couldn't ever do it.
But, I went a step further. Am sure he would have showed up at the next trip. Am sure, like you, he'd never succeed in replacing Ennis. But I
also believe, past everyone else....Ennis would have changed. He got hit pretty hard, too, at that melt-down. I just think he saw the risk of
losing Jack, for the first time, and was headed, for change. They never got the chance.
We agree, FlowerChild---I just left out what I believe, with all my heart, would have happened later. Some resolution to the good.
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Didn't want to delete or edit the above post, so will just add this: Anyone who thinks decisions made by our two lovers were set in stone
and irreversible, should remember, they had left each other, once before, and that didn't hold up either. They left each other after leaving
the mountain. And kept apart for 4 years. The love was so great, they would change, if there were no other choice. Not only would Jack have
come back that next trip, Ennis did have it in him to change. He'd done that twice before. He never would have given up, nor would Jack.
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Oh man, that was so well put. And you're right. We do see it practically the same after all. I don't believe that Ennis had it in him, at any other time in the story, to make those changes. But he was indeed rocked by what he learned, what he felt, and what he experienced in that last encounter. Though AP said nothing had changed, that doesn't preclude the possibility that he could change in the future. I absolutely believe in my heart that both would have been there in November had Jack lived. Who knows what course their lives might have taken in later years? This is the missed opportunity we mourn, as well as all the ones that went before, because this is the one that still held promise. Sigh.
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This is an amazing thread!! Thank you so much Tony and Barb for your last posts; they are absolutely beautiful!!
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There is really no right or wrong but seeing things differently, no harm no foul. But please tell me If I'm misunderstanding.
If Jack at that moment of the dozy embrace, realized and understood Ennis and accepted it, his disappointment, and the wanting of a life with Ennis the following years would have never occurred, than he would have been happy going to Brokeback, with the understanding that this was all that could be, and so settled for it.
Jack was one not to internalized anything, he wasn't Ennis. You can see what he feels, how he feels. You saw the hope and love in his face at 19, and I do believe this where he fell in love with Ennis, this moment was significant for Jack, he remembered year later, the sexless moment of connection, "the dozy embrace", and the resignation, disappointment, and acceptance of what is at 39, the "final confrontation". This is the painful part of the story, we don't like to look at it or deal with it, because this where Jack's story, his story ends, remembering what was, and what could have been, a "real good life".
Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him, but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road. Now that's a painful irony.
Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant.
I'm beginning to understand why AP had to end the story this way.
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I totally agree with that manhattangirl.
My take on the dozy embrace, and the discussion with Tony about his take on Jack's feelings at the different times in his life, was about his reflection on the dozy embrace all those years later, not what he was feeling or realizing at the actual time of the dozy embrace. I think Jack may have realized that Ennis wasn't ready to accept loving a man at that moment, but he probably thought it would come with time. After all, he asked him to make a life together four years after that. His understanding of the extent of Ennis's limitations in that respect came after the final confrontation, when he was remembering, and longing for, that perfect moment. 'Maybe they'd never got much farther than that. Let be. Let be.' Which I don't think of as giving up on the entire relationship, but as giving up on the idea that Ennis would ever be able to give more than he has to date. This, to me, is the source of his disappointment.
I liked what you said here:
"Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him, but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road. Now that's a painful irony."
This, as it happens, is exactly why I love Jack. And you couldn't have said it any better.
And yes, I can't think of any other way she could have ended it. Thomas once said something like:
Jack couldn't live without Ennis.
Jack couldn't be with Ennis.
Therefore, Jack couldn't live.
Close, but not quite. I'm sure he'll correct it for me when he comes in next. :)
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Tony, FlwrChild, tpe, ManhattanGirl, I am so glad to come back to this thread, and find your beautiful consensus. You all have explained the love of Jack for Ennis so clearly to me. Thank you. Just as Ennis internalized the label people put on him by projecting I ain't queer, in equal intensity, Jack embraced and internalized the love they shared on Brokeback Mountain, and made their relationship his life work. His work was completed when Ennis found those shirts and were transformed, letting go of the label and embracing their love. <^( :^^) :c) Thank you all.
[...]
I guess is how we see it. Jack was faithful, and always true, his love for Ennis was real, not a dream, we had proof of how deeply he felt, how he saw the love as we find out later. What his fear was realizing that his "unfaithfulness" to Ennis would be his life, and was his reality.
The dozy embrace for me is when Jack first realized he was in love with Ennis, and in remembering that moment of realiazation Jack understood that was as close he ever be to his lover, and accepted it. Maybe that why his story ended there at that moment of understanding.
[...]
It is an act of surrender, IMO. He acknowledgers Ennis fears -- i.e., Ennis's inability to even look at his face during the embrace. But he is willing to forgo even this. "Let be, let be." I think that was his final answer to the question of fear. He was willing to accept it, and live with it.
[...]
What I saw, in the Dozy Embrace, on Jack's side, was exhaustion, resignation, and sadness, without rejecting the love. He felt he could never get Ennis to understand he needed full companionship. That scene fades into the Dreamy Gaze, watching Ennis driving off with the horses, and the Dreamy Gaze has the same elements of the Dozy Embrace plus---understanding of Ennis, and an amazing sweetness and tenderness which is where I feel he internalized the love, maybe even separated it from his sexual needs, and.......gave up. Not the love. The hope of getting Ennis to ever change. Then we see the Dreamy Gaze jump to the Bitter Stare, as Ennis is leaving, again, ending that last meeting.
So, for me, that is when Jack internalized the love, as his ideal, but moved to the practical reality of finding a day-to-day companion. For me, there is no way this was when he finally knew of his love. He knew of his love all along. This was where he had to admit it wasn't
working out. Big difference there.
As I said, I've learned it might not be a matter of who's got it right, but more like, what did each of us see, and so each version is equally valid. But that's what I saw. Dozy Embrace-exhaustion. Dreamy Gaze-I will love you forever. Bitter Stare-I've got to find a companion other than Ennis, even if it is loveless.
Many might agree on this. Few would agree with me that Ennis would change. He was exhausted, too. A few more melt-downs, and I believe he would have found his way home---to living with Jack.
[...]
Tony, I meant to comment on your other post about this point. I thought what you said here was absolutely beautiful:
The Dozy Embrace very much had Jack going into a dream world, a sleepy enchantment, so different from all the liveliness we had seen in him before. I want to believe that that was when he internalized the love for Ennis, made it forever sacred, and yet, against the apparent impossibility of its ever being fulfilled, separated it from real life, which allowed him to look elsewhere.
Another way of saying this is that, in that scene, in those moments, Jack found the only solution available, the emergence of two worlds, one where he carried within an enchanted, immortal love, that wasn't realizable, and the other world, where he was practical and looked for a day-to-day partner. In that sense, he was never unfaithful.
Can I get away with this, as a solution? Please let me. That would leave Jack forever true to the love he bore within him. The Dozy Embrace would be when, under extreme pressure, he cracked, and made two different worlds, one within, the other, the outside, practical life of needs.
It certainly was a scene that was meant to convey.....something. A change of some kind. Please let it be peaceful resignation and that way, we can always know he stayed true.
And yes, you can get away with that as a solution. It's a wonderful way of looking at it, and equally as credible as any theory I've seen. So I hope it won't sound contradictory for me to say that, like your feelings about MG's post, I recognize this possibility but still can't embrace it for myself. I always go back to that "Let be. Let be." from the short story as a way to tell himself 'Don't dwell on what you can't have. Hang onto what you can. It's still the love of your life and it's still what you'll always need, whatever you can have of it.' He is saddened, yes, and resigned, probably in a way that he never was before, to the limitations of their relationship. But in the end, I just don't believe that while either of them was living, Jack would look for another mate to make a life with. "I wish I knew how to quit you." An acknowledgment that he can't. The remembrance of the dozy embrace. Recognition of the course his heart set 20 years ago, which he'll follow for the rest of his life.
[...]
[...]
If Jack at that moment of the dozy embrace, realized and understood Ennis and accepted it, his disappointment, and the wanting of a life with Ennis the following years would have never occurred, than he would have been happy going to Brokeback, with the understanding that this was all that could be, and so settled for it.
Jack was one not to internalized anything, he wasn't Ennis. You can see what he feels, how he feels. You saw the hope and love in his face at 19, and I do believe this where he fell in love with Ennis, this moment was significant for Jack, he remembered year later, the sexless moment of connection, "the dozy embrace", and the resignation, disappointment, and acceptance of what is at 39, the "final confrontation". This is the painful part of the story, we don't like to look at it or deal with it, because this where Jack's story, his story ends, remembering what was, and what could have been, a "real good life".
Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him, but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road. Now that's a painful irony.
Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant.
[...]
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Thomas once said something like:
Jack couldn't live without Ennis.
Jack couldn't be with Ennis.
Therefore, Jack couldn't live.
Close, but not quite. I'm sure he'll correct it for me when he comes in next. :)
Wow Barb......That's so true and so so so sad.... :\'( :\'( :\'( It's the most correct definition of Jack's life I ever read...... That's amazing!!
Jack was human, flawed, not so stoic, we seem ever so slightly to hold this against him, but he loved, his love was steadfast, he lived a life with one purpose to be with his lover, and died how he lived most of his life on the road. Now that's a painful irony.
Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant.
I'm beginning to understand why AP had to end the story this way.
Love your post MG!!! I really love Jack for what he was, so human, so in love. And yes that's a painful irony as I said once in the Ironic BBM thread. But maybe that was how it had to be, living on a road looking for love, and dying on that same road when you have found at last love, 'cause though we see Jack so bitter and sad I know he really found love and also he was happy with that love most of the time, in fact I think that in a strange but powerful way he was happy with Ennis love till the day of his death. I know that maybe this makes no sense for you but for me all that Jack had in his life was Ennis love and 'cause of that and in spite of the disappointment I know that if he had a second change in his life and could come back to that summer of 63 he would do everything again.
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***
Jack was the force in this relationship, through his love Ennis found himself, and through his death Ennis began to understood what it all meant.
I'm beginning to understand why AP had to end the story this way.
I do feel that Jack was the active agent that counterbalanced Ennis's fears. In a way, he counterbalanced his own fears about the relationship, by trying to be patient not only with Ennis, but also with himself (as I think the Dozy Embrace remembrance illustrates). That was a heavy load to carry, on all counts. I do agree that it was through that love that Ennis found himself at the very last.
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I totally agree with that manhattangirl.
My take on the dozy embrace, and the discussion with Tony about his take on Jack's feelings at the different times in his life, was about his reflection on the dozy embrace all those years later, not what he was feeling or realizing at the actual time of the dozy embrace. I think Jack may have realized that Ennis wasn't ready to accept loving a man at that moment, but he probably thought it would come with time. After all, he asked him to make a life together four years after that. His understanding of the extent of Ennis's limitations in that respect came after the final confrontation, when he was remembering, and longing for, that perfect moment. 'Maybe they'd never got much farther than that. Let be. Let be.' Which I don't think of as giving up on the entire relationship, but as giving up on the idea that Ennis would ever be able to give more than he has to date. This, to me, is the source of his disappointment.
***
I certainly think he was not giving up on his love for Ennis, even if he had to grapple with Ennis's fears and concede that Ennis could not go the distance as that point, as you have noted.
Jack didn't seem to be daunted by Ennis's fears, and he certainly didn't rtry to show his own. A little bit of the latter peeps out in the last confrontation, but I do think that the remembrance of the Dozy Embrance is an affirmation of love over fear. The remembrance, in a way, saves him from the final disappointment.
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Manhattangirl, that really was so very true---Jack was the force in this relationship, so much so that I now see the scene of the train
suddenly racing in front of Ennis, in front of Aguirre's trailor, as the prelude to....Jack. Unexpected, a powerful force, that had the original
Ennis fading in and then out, overwhelming the Ennis that was.
Jack was a life force confronting a person who had, essentially, given up, because if we look at that early Ennis, he had some kind of
resignation that life wasn't going to be much for him. His mention of the upcoming marriage to Alma was unenthusiastic. He probably loved
her, but felt she would never really know or understand him. In fact, that Ennis never expected anybody to bother, to look for an inner soul,
and that was already a settled issue--nobody saw much to him, not even himself.
But there came Jack, roaring in like the train, but with warm energy---a clunky pick-up, a persistent intent to be a friend, and one helluva
personality. And it was Jack that renewed the affair 4 years later, and Jack who stayed on the road, commuting. We ought to remember,
though, that Ennis made many adjustments to his work schedule and compromises of other kinds, and took risks, as best he could.
Back to the Dozy Embrace---it seemed to me that life-force was drained, and so, in earlier posts, I spoke of the progression of scenes and
events from there that reflected Jack felt he had reached the end, not of his love, but of any hopes for things getting better. I still believe
that, but also added, later, that that could not hold up. In other words, the life-force was visibly exhausted, but would regenerate, given
time. He would have shown up, that next trip. Might not have been planning to--but he would have. For no matter how much exhaustion he
felt, the love itself would always return the original energy. That's a roundabout projection, but, for me, it fits the opposing tensions and
how they would have worked out.
You are right, MG, his was the driving force. I would only add, the love itself rose above each of their traits and became the force more
powerful than Jack's life energy and Ennis' slowness. That was the ultimate force, past Jack's personality, and it would have won out, if
only there had been more time, for that driving force was in both of them.
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Wow, you all continue to blow me away. :)
tpe:
Jack didn't seem to be daunted by Ennis's fears, and he certainly didn't rtry to show his own. A little bit of the latter peeps out in the last confrontation, but I do think that the remembrance of the Dozy Embrance is an affirmation of love over fear. The remembrance, in a way, saves him from the final disappointment.
Tony:
I would only add, the love itself rose above each of their traits and became the force more powerful than Jack's life energy and Ennis' slowness. That was the ultimate force, past Jack's personality, and it would have won out, if only there had been more time, for that driving force was in both of them.
Beautiful, fellas. Sigh. You really nailed the essence of Jack and Ennis.
And Tony, I really liked your train analogies.
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Like what Flowerchild said "WOW", so many beautiful posts, from all of you. One thing I realize is that you can't separate Jack from Ennis. They are bonded forever together. To understand one, you must try to understand the other. Separately one was a pissant salesman, the other a just a random ranchhands, nameless one of many going from ranch to ranch looking for a job, this was their lives. But together the possibilities endless, the love almost indescribable, each fighting a fear that shackled them both. Beautiful and so very painful.
Again I learn so much from all of you.
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Like what Flowerchild said "WOW", so many beautiful posts, from all of you. One thing I realize is that you can't separate Jack from Ennis. They are bonded forever together. To understand one, you must try to understand the other. Separately one was a pissant salesman, the other a just a random ranchhands, nameless one of many going from ranch to ranch looking for a job, this was their lives. But together the possibilities endless, the love almost indescribable, each fighting a fear that shackled them both. Beautiful and so very painful.
Again I learn so much from all of you.
So beautiful post MG!!! That describes perfectly what BBM is and means: and endless, indescribable love.
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It is strange to realize that even though fighting their own fears shackled them and kept them apart, it was also by these fears that they recognized their need for each other. So many fears do accompany love, no? It is not paradoxical to say that one cannot love without fear. If one loves without some fear (of rejection, of misunderstanding, etc.), then one can argue that the love is dead.
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It is strange to realize that even though fighting their own fears shackled them and kept them apart, it was also by these fears that they recognized their need for each other. So many fears do accompany love, no? It is not paradoxical to say that one cannot love without fear. If one loves without some fear (of rejection, of misunderstanding, etc.), then one can argue that the love is dead.
So well said Thomas!!! Beautiful!!!
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In another section (SS vs. Screenplay), they've revived a couple of threads I had never seen, including one-"Open Spaces" where there is an
effort to understand the last line in the SS, "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing
could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
The many takes on that line belong in that thread, but there may be some relevance here, with tpe's saying above that fear of misunderstanding
(I've condensed his sentence) is part of the love process and without that, and other fears, love is dead. Hope I got that right. What he said
is a key point in Dr. Grey's book on Romantic Love---fears and doubts are essential to the energy force of romantic love before it settles down
to family love. Romantic love is a dance between two lovers, forward and backward, never really reaching stasis, or complete acceptance and
belief.
Annie deliberately left that line open for the reader to fill in, but would say, here, one possibility is that the open space was between what he knew
(finally) that the love was as strong as his and returned, and what he tried to believe, that maybe it could have worked out after all.
That's one take, and, of course, the varied opinions on that line, going back and forth, belong on that thread, not here.
Tpe's reference to doubt made me think of that. If in any way true, the final fear for Ennis was that maybe---it could have worked out,
compromises made, and many more years together. Not fear of love, but fear the love might just have been strong enough to carry them
through. This is, for me, an awful reading of that line, for it is the most painful of all. But Annie left it open, and so it could be that terrible.
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It is strange to realize that even though fighting their own fears shackled them and kept them apart, it was also by these fears that they recognized their need for each other. So many fears do accompany love, no? It is not paradoxical to say that one cannot love without fear. If one loves without some fear (of rejection, of misunderstanding, etc.), then one can argue that the love is dead.
What so interesting is the type of fear each had. Ennis fear of expressing that love he could lose, Jack fear of not expressing that love he loses. The fear is there for both, but what so painful is that the fear runs oppoisite of each other. That torque of emotion and reason, no answers nothing changed.
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What so interesting is the type of fear each had. Ennis fear of expressing that love he could lose, Jack fear of not expressing that love he loses. The fear is there for both, but what so painful is that the fear runs oppoisite of each other. That torque of emotion and reason, no answers nothing changed.
Their fears did seem to run counter with each other, and if I understand you correctly, it is not just the fears per se, but the inherent conflict of the opposing tendencies that aggravated the pain.
You are so right to bring up the image of the torque -- the image is indeed appropriate when we see the opposing fears in terms of motion and counter-motion. The result of the opposing tendecies is stasis. From all that pain, no true movement is produced.
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Their fears did seem to run counter with each other, and if I understand you correctly, it is not just the fears per se, but the inherent conflict of the opposing tendencies that aggravated the pain.
You are so right to bring up the image of the torque -- the image is indeed appropriate when we see the opposing fears in terms of motion and counter-motion. The result of the opposing tendecies is stasis. From all that pain, no true movement is produced.
.
You understand what I'm trying say.
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You understand what I'm trying say.
Thanks MG. I do love the torque image.
I somehow felt that when Jack embraced Ennis close to the end of the confrontation scene, it looked as if they were grappling with each other.
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want to post this here as well, as it seems befitting..
This one is hard for me to swallow, too. But Jack and Ennis always were poor at speaking of love; Jack's bold remark "what we got now is brokeback mountain!" is the confession of a man who is dying without Ennis, that he cannot have what Ennis had given him, this Brokeback Mountain, this love. He could finally acknowledge that love is what had binded them together forever, but he still hadn't utilized the L section of Webster's dictionary.
It's also heartbreaking for me to know that Ennis couldn't hold back his tears then. On absorbing Jack's desperate language of love, Ennis' guard of both himself and Jack had become vulnerable; then the stab of Jack suggesting that the only love they both had could be taken away, with "I wish I knew how to quit you" going straight into his back. I think that's why he had to cry as he fumbled to respond - Jack cracked his shell, and the then why don't you and ... just let me be, huh! were a frightened little Ennis, a kid who'd been lead to Earl.
Every second of the final confrontation is an eerie parallel to what Ennis was never "allowed" to have, and to know of a father who (un)consciously grounded his child from "Brokeback Mountain" is arguably more disgusting than dead Earl himself. :-\\
The more I watch Jack and Ennis fight in that scene, the easier I am on Ennis. I am fairly irresponsible in some aspects but relate to Ennis' busted but ever so human morale. It shows not just his tough exterior but also an inner strength, and he wraps it around Jack so silently (i.e. dozy embrace..) throughout their snowy mountaintop affair; it's no wonder Jack may realize what they have up there is love.
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im not sure the fight was caused by a fear of love i think the possible main reason was ennis' frustration at his time with jack being cut short especially since i dont beleive ennis ever thought he would see jack after they came down from broke back it was " a one shot deal" i bekeive this is the reason the fought rather then a fear of the love.
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im not sure the fight was caused by a fear of love i think the possible main reason was ennis' frustration at his time with jack being cut short especially since i dont beleive ennis ever thought he would see jack after they came down from broke back it was " a one shot deal" i bekeive this is the reason the fought rather then a fear of the love.
Buddy, Brokeback is a testament to love, and the film is about overcoming that fear or not. I'm going to have to disagree with you, not so much specifically though, as generally speaking towards the majority of disagreements or fights between Ennis and Jack. One knew that the extension of that "thing" was possible, the other didn't. And, as they both needed each other, these opposing personas caused quakes between them, both on the mountain and further down the road..
I get what you're saying though, don't get me wrong.
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Buddy, Brokeback is a testament to love, and the film is about overcoming that fear or not. I'm going to have to disagree with you, not so much specifically though, as generally speaking towards the majority of disagreements or fights between Ennis and Jack. One knew that the extension of that "thing" was possible, the other didn't. And, as they both needed each other, these opposing personas caused quakes between them, both on the mountain and further down the road..
I get what you're saying though, don't get me wrong.
yer dont get me wrong i know the reason i mentioned above was just what i felt was a partilal cause of the fight, but yes i do think ennis also had a fear of their love at first because he didnt want to be "queer" and then because he was affraid of what society would do if they knew he was.
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Thanks orangetruck and zankou. :)
Personally, I do associate Ennis's breakdown in the final confrontation with the Fear of Love. For some reason, I also think that he intentionally, if not unconsciously, sought ways to limit the meetings with Jack -- not because he found any pleasure in all this, mind you. I just felt that Ennis over the years had become more paranoid and more fearful about being found out. Not that we can balme him or say that his fears were groundless. As I mentioned in the past, Jack's death may have reinforced this notion to a certain extent...
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Thanks orangetruck and zankou. :)
Personally, I do associate Ennis's breakdown in the final confrontation with the Fear of Love. For some reason, I also think that he intentionally, if not unconsciously, sought ways to limit the meetings with Jack -- not because he found any pleasure in all this, mind you. I just felt that Ennis over the years had become more paranoid and more fearful about being found out. Not that we can balme him or say that his fears were groundless. As I mentioned in the past, Jack's death may have reinforced this notion to a certain extent...
hmmm good point but as i mentioned once in the having a ranch together thread, if ennis had chosen to be with jack maybe jack wouldnt have been so careless to get caught so... i guess well never know
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hmmm good point but as i mentioned once in the having a ranch together thread, if ennis had chosen to be with jack maybe jack wouldnt have been so careless to get caught so... i guess well never know
Perhaps. Jack would have been contented...
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Perhaps. Jack would have been contented...
but then i suppos it could have also just gotten ennis killed aswell we never really know :-\\ i jsut have to keep a decent amount of faith that in the after life the same mistakes wont need to be made.
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Thanks orangetruck and zankou. :)
Personally, I do associate Ennis's breakdown in the final confrontation with the Fear of Love. For some reason, I also think that he intentionally, if not unconsciously, sought ways to limit the meetings with Jack -- not because he found any pleasure in all this, mind you. I just felt that Ennis over the years had become more paranoid and more fearful about being found out. Not that we can balme him or say that his fears were groundless. As I mentioned in the past, Jack's death may have reinforced this notion to a certain extent...
I know what you mean. I got that sense of increased paranoia, with Ennis' resistent sort of body language starting with "Bud, there's something I been meaning to tell you." It's as if he couldn't escape the priority of his job, or the priority of excuses these days. It really saddened me, that he was still that way, that both boys were star crossed soulmates coming from the Mountain, yet both were walking down separate directions; one going forward, the other going straight; one going down the highway, the other down an irrigation ditch. :-\\
I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
$)
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I know what you mean. I got that sense of increased paranoia, with Ennis' resistent sort of body language starting with "Bud, there's something I been meaning to tell you." It's as if he couldn't escape the priority of his job, or the priority of excuses these days. It really saddened me, that he was still that way, that both boys were star crossed soulmates coming from the Mountain, yet both were walking down separate directions; one going forward, the other going straight; one going down the highway, the other down an irrigation ditch. :-\\
I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
$)
great way og putting it justin the bit about the different directions they were going in was pretty powerful.
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I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
$)
This carries one of the great ambiguities in the film/ss, IMO. Love and fear are so intertwined for Ennis -- we see this in the fact that his love is finally awakened by Jack's death, even as the death seems to affirm for him his own deepest fears.
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This carries one of the great ambiguities in the film/ss, IMO. Love and fear are so intertwined for Ennis -- we see this in the fact that his love is finally awakened by Jack's death, even as the death seems to affirm for him his own deepest fears.
Thomas, this was one of my biggest attractions upon discovering the story. And when I took that certain friend to see it and he mentioned afterwards, the tragedy of that hate crime, part of me felt offended that he didn't get that it wasn't carved in stone, that it was a play on fear/love and could have simply been in Ennis' head. It's such a pivotable part of the concept and yet so sly, so camouflage - - for either way he's got the two shirts. I still like to think that, with Jack's shirt inside Ennis', he has learned how to preserve love rather than fear.
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I know what you mean. I got that sense of increased paranoia, with Ennis' resistent sort of body language starting with "Bud, there's something I been meaning to tell you." It's as if he couldn't escape the priority of his job, or the priority of excuses these days. It really saddened me, that he was still that way, that both boys were star crossed soulmates coming from the Mountain, yet both were walking down separate directions; one going forward, the other going straight; one going down the highway, the other down an irrigation ditch. :-\\
I'm still always intrigued when I consider the reality of Jack's death VS Ennis' perspective of it, whether in the SS or the film.
$)
Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.
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Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.
hmmm i have to admit i think if id seen what ennis had seen my fears woukd have been the same
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Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.
buurRrr.. so true. :-\\
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hmmm i just wish that it was possible for ennis to do that and go back 20 years im pretty sure he would flee the country and go in to hiding if neccisary to stay with jack for ever.
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hmmm i have to admit i think if id seen what ennis had seen my fears woukd have been the same
This is <OT> but, I keep equating you with Ennis, zan. I think it was another similar post, it sounded like you explaining yourself, and I had to look again to see that you were talking about Ennis instead. Then again, maybe it's just your big love towards Jake, who knows..
As for the topic, it nukes my heart seeing Jack catch Ennis on his way down, at the end of Final Confrontation. It says so much. :-\\
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This is <OT> but, I keep equating you with Ennis, zan. I think it was another similar post, it sounded like you explaining yourself, and I had to look again to see that you were talking about Ennis instead. Then again, maybe it's just your big love towards Jake, who knows..
As for the topic, it nukes my heart seeing Jack catch Ennis on his way down, at the end of Final Confrontation. It says so much. :-\\
hmm thats pretty damn powerful ennis' break down in jacks arms its just so sad. :(
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hmmm i just wish that it was possible for ennis to do that and go back 20 years im pretty sure he would flee the country and go in to hiding if neccisary to stay with jack for ever.
You bet!!
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Yes, that's why the scene where Ennis recalls the horrific memory of seeing the brutally murdered Earl is such a crucial scene. That scene reveals everything. It tells exactly why Ennis is so afraid, it tells why Ennis is the way he is, and it make us sympathize with Ennis. It really delves deep into Ennis' character. That scene shows us how much Ennis loves Jack (something we already knew), but it makes understand exactly why he thinks he and Jack must live their lives apart. It's clear he never wants to be apart from Jack, but he's in a catch-22. He fears what could happen to both himself and Jack in such a cruel and oppressive society. That's the whole tragedy of this beautiful love story. These boys are soulmates, they have true love, something that few people ever find in this world, and they know it. But Ennis' fear of taking the "road less traveled" causes them both to suffer immensely in their lives. In the end, he realizes he should have just "lifted the sail and caught the winds of destiny", he shouldn't have let his fear bind him and chain him because true love is more important than anything, he realizes all the misery he and Jack had endured over the past twenty years because although they were destined to be together, society forced them apart. If Ennis could start again, if he could go back twenty years, this time he wouldn't care what restrictions society imposed, he would find a way, he would have never said goodbye to Jack from the beginning.
I think in a way, Ennis wanted to protect Jack, when he saw that flash of Jack being murdered on the phone with Lureen, that was his fear, ik hope to believe that he wasn't affraid to love Jack.
On Jack's question to build a ranch together and go live there, Ennis told the story of the two man living together and one was murdered.
I think that is also why he kept there lives apart, to protect the love of his life.
(hmm very difficult to express myself in english, i hope you know what i mean)
One other thing, and i don't know if it's being discussed before or not (i'm sorry if it is, so much to read here)
When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top of Ennis's, when we see the shirts ín Ennis's closet Ennis's shirt is on top of Jack's.
I think that was the moment you knew Ennis made peace with himself as he embraced Jack with his shirt.
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I think in a way, Ennis wanted to protect Jack, when he saw that flash of Jack being murdered on the phone with Lureen, that was his fear, ik hope to believe that he wasn't affraid to love Jack.
On Jack's question to build a ranch together and go live there, Ennis told the story of the two man living together and one was murdered.
I think that is also why he kept there lives apart, to protect the love of his life.
(hmm very difficult to express myself in english, i hope you know what i mean)
One other thing, and i don't know if it's being discussed before or not (i'm sorry if it is, so much to read here)
When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top of Ennis's, when we see the shirts ín Ennis's closet Ennis's shirt is on top of Jack's.
I think that was the moment you knew Ennis made peace with himself as he embraced Jack with his shirt.
hmm he wasnt so much affraid of the love but what society would do if their love was known...
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hmm he wasnt so much affraid of the love but what society would do if their love was known...
That's what i mean ;)
That was his fear..that's why the story of the 2 man living together was important.
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That's what i mean ;)
That was his fear..that's why the story of the 2 man living together was important.
yer
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Thomas, this was one of my biggest attractions upon discovering the story. And when I took that certain friend to see it and he mentioned afterwards, the tragedy of that hate crime, part of me felt offended that he didn't get that it wasn't carved in stone, that it was a play on fear/love and could have simply been in Ennis' head. It's such a pivotable part of the concept and yet so sly, so camouflage - - for either way he's got the two shirts. I still like to think that, with Jack's shirt inside Ennis', he has learned how to preserve love rather than fear.
I somehow felt that the short story was more successful in preserving the ambiguity of Jack's end. But I must admit that this is a bit more difficult to pull of cinematically -- without leaving the viewer with a feeling of being short-changed, if you know what I mean. Alas, people who go to movies doen't always like ambiguous endings... They tend to want something neatly tied in the end...
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I think in a way, Ennis wanted to protect Jack, when he saw that flash of Jack being murdered on the phone with Lureen, that was his fear, ik hope to believe that he wasn't affraid to love Jack.
On Jack's question to build a ranch together and go live there, Ennis told the story of the two man living together and one was murdered.
I think that is also why he kept there lives apart, to protect the love of his life.
(hmm very difficult to express myself in english, i hope you know what i mean)
One other thing, and i don't know if it's being discussed before or not (i'm sorry if it is, so much to read here)
When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top of Ennis's, when we see the shirts ín Ennis's closet Ennis's shirt is on top of Jack's.
I think that was the moment you knew Ennis made peace with himself as he embraced Jack with his shirt.
I think you expressed very well here what some of us had also said in some of the other related threads: that Ennis feared for them both -- but most especially for Jack. His reluctance to live a shared life was certainly due to fear that they would be subject to reprisals -- and Jack's death seemed to have confirmed his worse fears...
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I think you expressed very well here what some of us had also said in some of the other related threads: that Ennis feared for them both -- but most especially for Jack. His reluctance to live a shared life was certainly due to fear that they would be subject to reprisals -- and Jack's death seemed to have confirmed his worse fears...
And,at the same time,was also a proof of the inutility and/or the irony of this denial along their lives;obliging himself and Jack to feel miserable during so many years,to "protect" themselves against society's rough rules and reaction.And ending by falling into what he had wanted to avoid precisely; being killed for a different way of loving...Giving the reason to this society,but not exactly to himself... :\'(
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And,at the same time,was also a proof of the inutility and/or the irony of this denial along their lives;obliging himself and Jack to feel miserable during so many years,to "protect" themselves against society's rough rules and reaction.And ending by falling into what he had wanted to avoid precisely; being killed for a different way of loving...Giving the reason to this society,but not exactly to himself... :\'(
As i said before, actually I wished i'd never saw this movie, it makes me so sad to watch these guy's, never knowing what it would be like to be together without being judged.
It makes me more angry with the world because in some countries this is still not possible.
Why would anybody murder someone because he loves another person...as i'm thinking about it i'm getting a little pissed off GRRRRR......can't stand those narrow minded people.. in my eyes love is love, if it's a boy/boy love, girl/girl love or boy/girl love..that doesn't make any difference.
Sorry got a little emotional
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As i said before, actually I wished i'd never saw this movie, it makes me so sad to watch these guy's, never knowing what it would be like to be together without being judged.
It makes me more angry with the world because in some countries this is still not possible.
Why would anybody murder someone because he loves another person...as i'm thinking about it i'm getting a little pissed off GRRRRR......can't stand those narrow minded people.. in my eyes love is love, if it's a boy/boy love, girl/girl love or boy/girl love..that doesn't make any difference.
Sorry got a little emotional
dont worry i get emotional all the time over things like this i cant understand what the big deal is with being different love is love and jack and ennis had one of if not the most beautiful loves ever... probably the most powerful love ever.
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And,at the same time,was also a proof of the inutility and/or the irony of this denial along their lives;obliging himself and Jack to feel miserable during so many years,to "protect" themselves against society's rough rules and reaction.And ending by falling into what he had wanted to avoid precisely; being killed for a different way of loving...Giving the reason to this society,but not exactly to himself... :\'(
This is in fact te greatest irony -- the contradiction which is at the heart of the "fear of love".
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As i said before, actually I wished i'd never saw this movie, it makes me so sad to watch these guy's, never knowing what it would be like to be together without being judged.
It makes me more angry with the world because in some countries this is still not possible.
Why would anybody murder someone because he loves another person...as i'm thinking about it i'm getting a little pissed off GRRRRR......can't stand those narrow minded people.. in my eyes love is love, if it's a boy/boy love, girl/girl love or boy/girl love..that doesn't make any difference.
Sorry got a little emotional
dont worry i get emotional all the time over things like this i cant understand what the big deal is with being different love is love and jack and ennis had one of if not the most beautiful loves ever... probably the most powerful love ever.
The fear of love is very real -- and in some places, very current. It is best to confront it, though it disturbs us deeply.
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This is in fact te greatest irony -- the contradiction which is at the heart of the "fear of love".
Absolutely -- making the ambiguity of Ennis' vision of Jack's death an invaluable point and parallel to the 9 year old (20 years and no erasure)..?
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Absolutely -- making the ambiguity of Ennis' vision of Jack's death an invaluable point and parallel to the 9 year old (20 years and no erasure)..?
Even the very ending is beautifully ambiguous, bo? We are not sure whether in the end, something was "lifted", or did he just sink deeper into the mire of fear and loneliness...
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Even the very ending is beautifully ambiguous, bo? We are not sure whether in the end, something was "lifted", or did he just sink deeper into the mire of fear and loneliness...
i dont know but im pretty confident in death all the fear and pain would be lifted it would be just like brokeback for them.
safe and together with out the restrictions of an ignorant society...
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i dont know but im pretty confident in death all the fear and pain would be lifted it would be just like brokeback for them.
safe and together with out the restrictions of an ignorant society...
So perhaps you imply that Ennis longed to die in the end?
I think in the end, his love for Jack transcended the fear of death. It had held him captive for too long. But the ambiguity of the ending certainly allows for other interpretations.
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So perhaps you imply that Ennis longed to die in the end?
I think in the end, his love for Jack transcended the fear of death. It had held him captive for too long. But the ambiguity of the ending certainly allows for other interpretations.
yes perhaps he longed to die in order to reunite with jack but i think he also understood the importance of living his life out for the sake of his daughters...
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Even the very ending is beautifully ambiguous, bo? We are not sure whether in the end, something was "lifted", or did he just sink deeper into the mire of fear and loneliness...
I am sorry, but I disagree with this totally. Ennis, at the end of the movie, was unambiguously content with his lot in life, with his connection made with Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, with his role in his daughter's life, and most of all, with the goal of carrying Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.
Ennis, who was closed up emotionally all his life, who was shown emotional colors and life by Jack, found new life in Lightning Flat, and I have no doubt that the mail box number indicates surely and unequivocally that he expect more to come in life.
The short story and the movie have very different endings, but I think Heath's version in the movie is more true to the spirit of Ennis and Jack.
Just my own interpretation.
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I am sorry, but I disagree with this totally. Ennis, at the end of the movie, was unambiguously content with his lot in life, with his connection made with Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, with his role in his daughter's life, and most of all, with the goal of carrying Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.
Ennis, who was closed up emotionally all his life, who was shown emotional colors and life by Jack, found new life in Lightning Flat, and I have no doubt that the mail box number indicates surely and unequivocally that he expect more to come in life.
The short story and the movie have very different endings, but I think Heath's version in the movie is more true to the spirit of Ennis and Jack.
Just my own interpretation.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. It's interesting that you mention him putting the mail box letters. I think it meant Ennis was *settling in* for a future, not wishing to die, having a valuable lesson learned. I think he was very much enlightened following Jack's death about true love and it made him a stronger person for it.
I also feel that it is ironic that Ennis learned about the true meaning of Jack's love from two women in the film, Cassie, and his own daughter. Cassie taught him that *fun* was *fun* , but being in love with someone goes so much deeper. Sometimes people get hurt deeply too. He'd left her drifting and confused, and applied that to his relationship with Jack, the one he was truly in love with. .....But....
From his own daughter, he learned after Jack's death, that life and love are to be appreciated and celebrated. (" This Kurt fella< does he love you?") He will attend his daughter's wedding when previously, he would chosen the roundup...telling.. MO.
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I agree wholeheartedly with this. It's interesting that you mention him putting the mail box letters. I think it meant Ennis was *settling in* for a future, not wishing to die, having a valuable lesson learned. I think he was very much enlightened following Jack's death about true love and it made him a stronger person for it.
I also feel that it is ironic that Ennis learned about the true meaning of Jack's love from two women in the film, Cassie, and his own daughter. Cassie taught him that *fun* was *fun* , but being in love with someone goes so much deeper. Sometimes people get hurt deeply too. He'd left her drifting and confused, and applied that to his relationship with Jack, the one he was truly in love with. .....But....
From his own daughter, he learned after Jack's death, that life and love are to be appreciated and celebrated. (" This Kurt fella< does he love you?") He will attend his daughter's wedding when previously, he would chosen the roundup...telling.. MO.
hmmmm i agree
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I have always liked the scene with the mailbox and have even found affirmation in seeing him stick on that number "1": One love, we've got to carry each other .. carry each other. (Trailing off into a U2 lyric ;) )
I think a more challenging angle of the ending scene though, is whether Ennis would still continue to hide himself.
And I say himself because not everyone agrees that he's got a solid homosexuality to conceal. In other words, would he now allow himself to "shack up" with another man should he find himself another 1?
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I have always liked the scene with the mailbox and have even found affirmation in seeing him stick on that number "1": One love, we've got to carry each other .. carry each other. (Trailing off into a U2 lyric ;) )
I think a more challenging angle of the ending scene though, is whether Ennis would still continue to hide himself.
And I say himself because not everyone agrees that he's got a solid homosexuality to conceal. In other words, would he now allow himself to "shack up" with another man should he find himself another 1?
hmm maybe he would but i think ennis would probably not really be able to fall in love again he is still in love with jack i know love has no limits but i think ennis would be maybe just stick to his daughters and that family love rather then romantacisms, i do wonder whether he would shack up with another man and not hide if he fell in love again but then im not sure if he would on some level i think he would maybe live with another man but i still dont think he would freely tell people they were in a relationship i think the most important thing was he had finally accepted himself. maybe i dont have a solid unchanged opinon about this yet.
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hmm maybe he would but i think ennis would probably not really be able to fall in love again he is still in love with jack i know love has no limits but i think ennis would be maybe just stick to his daughters and that family love rather then romantacisms, i do wonder whether he would shack up with another man and not hide if he fell in love again but then im not sure if he would on some level i think he would maybe live with another man but i still dont think he would freely tell people they were in a relationship i think the most important thing was he had finally accepted himself. maybe i dont have a solid unchanged opinon about this yet.
Ok so the question is did he accept himself?
You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?
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Ok so the question is did he accept himself?
You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?
what i mean is basically i think in himself and i dont think he would be as worried about the rest of the society as he previously was but what i mean is i dont think he would make a banner saying we are in love and put it on his trailer. apart from that i think he would be pretty fearless he think he would be more just careful then paronoid.
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Ok so the question is did he accept himself?
You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?
I think Ennis suffered an inner renovation somehow after Jack's death; I'd say better that it was so from their final confrontation.His statement "Jack,I swear..." that we've commented so many times,it could be the most superficial proof of this; before this,he had done a kind of "coming out" before Jack's family that was the first step for this acceptation of himself.And it could be,why not? the first step too to begin to learn how to overcome the fear of his environment and its duties and rules...
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I think Ennis suffered an inner renovation somehow after Jack's death; I'd say better that it was so from their final confrontation.His statement "Jack,I swear..." that we've commented so many times,it could be the most superficial proof of this; before this,he had done a kind of "coming out" before Jack's family that was the first step for this acceptation of himself.And it could be,why not? the first step too to begin to learn how to overcome the fear of his environment and its duties and rules...
Agreed. :)
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Ok so the question is did he accept himself?
You say it's important that he had; but with that comes the freedom to love those he feels he does. Are you saying he's overcome himself but not the fear of the outside world?
The fact that the way he imagined Jack's murder, tells me that Ennis still realized the dangers of the outside world, but also that when one gets the chance to love and be loved like he and Jack had take as much of that opportunity givin to show it. To honor Jack's ultimate sacrifice to their love, he cannot help but feel devastatingly sorry, he denied Jack, he decided and swore to do right by Jack and love, unconditionally, the people he teasured and valued most in the future. MHO.
Could Ennis fall in love again? with another man? ...well that's another thread, but I feel it's possible.
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The fact that the way he imagined Jack's murder, tells me that Ennis still realized the dangers of the outside world, but also that when one gets the chance to love and be loved like he and Jack had take as much of that opportunity givin to show it. To honor Jack's ultimate sacrifice to their love, he cannot help but feel devastatingly sorry, he denied Jack, he decided and swore to do right by Jack and love, unconditionally, the people he teasured and valued most in the future. MHO.
Could Ennis fall in love again? with another man? ...well that's another thread, but I feel it's possible.
I reckon, but yes wouldn't it certainly be possible?
The irrigation ditch sucked the *true* love from Ennis. Jack put it back. Now what's he gonna do with it? He learned it can disappear, and that it could come back. What's left to learn is to not take it for granted..
"MHO" -- But frankly "my humble opinion" is getting dry in these parts.
Right here I'll let it stand for "Man Has Opened"
.. tired of them unhappy endings anyway ^*)
;D
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The fact that the way he imagined Jack's murder, tells me that Ennis still realized the dangers of the outside world, but also that when one gets the chance to love and be loved like he and Jack had take as much of that opportunity givin to show it. To honor Jack's ultimate sacrifice to their love, he cannot help but feel devastatingly sorry, he denied Jack, he decided and swore to do right by Jack and love, unconditionally, the people he teasured and valued most in the future. MHO.
Could Ennis fall in love again? with another man? ...well that's another thread, but I feel it's possible.
I agree Af. Jack's death confirms Ennis fears and paranoia, so could be he still scared of society? Maybe, I don't know.
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Thomas, this was one of my biggest attractions upon discovering the story. And when I took that certain friend to see it and he mentioned afterwards, the tragedy of that hate crime, part of me felt offended that he didn't get that it wasn't carved in stone, that it was a play on fear/love and could have simply been in Ennis' head. It's such a pivotable part of the concept and yet so sly, so camouflage - - for either way he's got the two shirts. I still like to think that, with Jack's shirt inside Ennis', he has learned how to preserve love rather than fear.
To be fair to your friend, the tire iron scene was presented in such a way that pople could have wasily interpreted it to be what actually happened.
I think most moviegoers hate what Jake call's the "unresolved cadence" -- they like things spoon-fed to them. They go to the movies not to think but to be entertained. If there is a choice, they invariably interpret a scene along these lines, hence, you have your friend's reaction.
I am not condoning this, certainly. But I feel that it is quite common. The fear of love and their love must somehow come to a resolution (in thier minds) -- anything else would be unsatisfactory.
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I am sorry, but I disagree with this totally. Ennis, at the end of the movie, was unambiguously content with his lot in life, with his connection made with Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, with his role in his daughter's life, and most of all, with the goal of carrying Jack's ashes to Brokeback Mountain.
Ennis, who was closed up emotionally all his life, who was shown emotional colors and life by Jack, found new life in Lightning Flat, and I have no doubt that the mail box number indicates surely and unequivocally that he expect more to come in life.
The short story and the movie have very different endings, but I think Heath's version in the movie is more true to the spirit of Ennis and Jack.
Just my own interpretation.
I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie. The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise... At the very least, there was everlasting regret.
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I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie. The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise... At the very least, there was everlasting regret.
Definitely. He had much sorrow and regret. At the end of the movie, if he could turn back time twenty years, this time we know exactly what he would do.
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I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie. The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise... At the very least, there was everlasting regret.
I'm not sure either if contentis the proper word for what Ennis feels at the end of the movie.Surely a part of him was so because he had found a way to accept himself-as I said in a former post in this same thread...-and to live fully somehow.But the price he had to pay to arrive to this was very high;the loss of the only person he had loved, united to an eternal regret for having loss also too much time to live this love.
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I'm not sure either if contentis the proper word for what Ennis feels at the end of the movie.Surely a part of him was so because he had found a way to accept himself-as I said in a former post in this same thread...-and to live fully somehow.But the price he had to pay to arrive to this was very high;the loss of the only person he had loved, united to an eternal regret for having loss also too much time to live this love.
Certainly there is a much better word, I agree. (^)
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I am not so sure if I would agree that Ennis was unambiguously content with his lot in life at the end of the movie. The tears in the "I swear..." scene seem to indicate otherwise... At the very least, there was everlasting regret.
Regret...yes...sadness...yes...content with his lot in life, why not? We brokies are also in tears half the time. It's called PBS, no? Bittersweet contentment... When Junior drove up to his trailer... when she invited him to her wedding...when she tells him her fiance loves her... There will always be tears for Ennis, just as there will always be tears for us... I hope. With tears, I know I still remember Heath, Ennis and Jack. I don't ever want to be not feeling sad. But at the same time, I am content with whatever I have. Just as Ennis was content with his "don't need nothing when you don't got nothing." He grew up poor with a paperbag for luggage, for crying out loud. I don't want to project my own values and expectations on Ennis. I try to understand what Anne Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath put into the character. I think, when Ennis put the numbers 17 on his mailbox, and stood back to admire his handywork, he was content, and expectant of more visits with Jack's Ma, letters from his little girls... Life is not always about material things or sex. One love in one life time is sometimes enough... I think, at least for Ennis it was.
Just my two cents.
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Regret...yes...sadness...yes...content with his lot in life, why not? We brokies are also in tears half the time. It's called PBS, no? Bittersweet contentment... When Junior drove up to his trailer... when she invited him to her wedding...when she tells him her fiance loves her... There will always be tears for Ennis, just as there will always be tears for us... I hope. With tears, I know I still remember Heath, Ennis and Jack. I don't ever want to be not feeling sad. But at the same time, I am content with whatever I have. Just as Ennis was content with his "don't need nothing when you don't got nothing." He grew up poor with a paperbag for luggage, for crying out loud. I don't want to project my own values and expectations on Ennis. I try to understand what Anne Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath put into the character. I think, when Ennis put the numbers 17 on his mailbox, and stood back to admire his handywork, he was content, and expectant of more visits with Jack's Ma, letters from his little girls... Life is not always about material things or sex. One love in one life time is sometimes enough... I think, at least for Ennis it was.
Just my two cents.
The bolded sentence is interesting. It brings me to the postcard and shirts in the respect that Ennis has those there for his own reasons but also to 'feel sad'.. But then that's just inevitably part of the package. It could possibly be his backbone to being content and able to get behind the wheel of his life these days. Hmm :s)
Any case I may not agree, but I get a better glimpse into what you're saying with this post.
:t)
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Would "resignation" be a better way to describe Ennis at the end, rather than "contentment"?
As to the fear of love, did the fear go away in the very end? If it didn't, and if it comingled with regret, would this imply that Ennis was still far from equilibrium?
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Would "resignation" be a better way to describe Ennis at the end, rather than "contentment"?
As to the fear of love, did the fear go away in the very end? If it didn't, and if it comingled with regret, would this imply that Ennis was still far from equilibrium?
Thanks for the thought provoking question, Thomas.
At the risk of taking all fear from Ennis in my response, I think 'resignation' works. For me, it was in his watering eyes and those escaping three words before he shuts the closet door, himself not in it. As an initial first step out into the open field without Jack, he accepts the loss of love. The resignation resonates in that view out of the window, and it leaves me simply and direly hoping his pursuit now, of what he had, flows similarly to the grass with the wind.
"You don't got nothing, you don't need nothin'." -- Much like Ennis probably feels a different ripple every day, I will not rest my thoughts on just one blank shore. I do like to think the glimpse he gets of his unhindered heart from the closet in his trailer suggests equilibria at the least:
For now, Ennis may have nothing when actually, he's got the essense of Jack in his lonesome trailer, the power of love. With regret still in the equation, I believe it is his door to an inner peace, something he had on Brokeback Mountain. This, everytime he opens that closet door, combined with the finite world in which he lives, concocts something almost as palpable as a dose of serum; He can swallow his tears here. And as time goes on, he will find a balance on that bridge from here to there.
I can't call this my humble opinion as of yet. I'm merely articulating the sensation with which I'm left as darkness slowly engulfs the swimming grass at the film's closing.
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Would "resignation" be a better way to describe Ennis at the end, rather than "contentment"?
As to the fear of love, did the fear go away in the very end? If it didn't, and if it comingled with regret, would this imply that Ennis was still far from equilibrium?
I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve.
Ennis was not giving up, and there is nothing he could do about Jack's death, the wasted years.
It's call acceptance. And along with acceptance of what cannot be changed, like society (given Ennis' circumstances) there is also contentment with what is. It is part of the cowboy stoicism that kept Ennis going all those years. He was happy with beans, with non-material things, like his little darlings. We may not be happy in Ennis' situation, but that's what, in my mind, make Ennis special. Even his lack of ambition is sweet.
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I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve.
Ennis was not giving up, and there is nothing he could do about Jack's death, the wasted years.
It's call acceptance. And along with acceptance of what cannot be changed, like society (given Ennis' circumstances) there is also contentment with what is. It is part of the cowboy stoicism that kept Ennis going all those years. He was happy with beans, with non-material things, like his little darlings. We may not be happy in Ennis' situation, but that's what, in my mind, make Ennis special. Even his lack of ambition is sweet.
But resignation also is acceptance, no? A sort of way of being submissive to what has been. Perhaps Ennis is learning to move on from what has kept him down, taking with him the bare necessities. Even if it's only a paperbag with a coupla shirts or something..
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But resignation also is acceptance, no? A sort of way of being submissive to what has been. Perhaps Ennis is learning to move on from what has kept him down, taking with him the bare necessities. Even if it's only a paperbag with a coupla shirts or something..
Without getting into another war of definitions with you OT, I'd say resignation is giving up, and acceptance is not fighting what cannot be changed, but continue to change and grow whenever there is opportunity.
Resignation is passive submission as you put it.
Acceptance is wisdom in action.
Just my interpretation.
^f^
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Without getting into another war of definitions with you OT, I'd say resignation is giving up, and acceptance is not fighting what cannot be changed, but continue to change and grow whenever there is opportunity.
Resignation is passive submission as you put it.
Acceptance is wisdom in action.
Just my interpretation.
^f^
Seriously? War? Take it easy. ;D
By resignation, as opposed to "wisdom in action", we have Ennis with his shirts having accepted the "lesson" on love. No he's not actively moving on by painting his trailer in rainbows; he's accepting himself. And that is more likely to me than finding contentment as tears are about to fall from his eyes and he fights to say I love you to the absent love of his life.
Yes resignation, or otherwise unresisting attitude towards his fate with Jack. Yes, if we're talking definitions, I choose that word.
:cr)
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Seriously? War? Take it easy. ;D
By resignation, as opposed to "wisdom in action", we have Ennis with his shirts having accepted the "lesson" on love. No he's not actively moving on by painting his trailer in rainbows; he's accepting himself. And that is more likely to me than finding contentment as tears are about to fall from his eyes and he fights to say I love you to the absent love of his life.
Yes resignation, or otherwise unresisting attitude towards his fate with Jack. Yes, if we're talking definitions, I choose that word.
:cr)
:8 Lighten up, OT. It was just a word to mean we disagree strongly, but that would be too wordy.
Back to the definitions...
You are welcome to choose resignation.
I choose acceptance and contentment, because I see Ennis reaching out to others that he kept out before he met Jack. I see growth in a man that was fearful and confused. The end was only the beginning for Ennis.
As we have established that we see the movie differently, there is no need to continue making circular discussions about what you want to choose to define, and what I choose to define.
I choose to let you win your own argument. :cr)
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:8 Lighten up, OT. It was just a word to mean we disagree strongly, but that would be too wordy.
Back to the definitions...
You are welcome to choose resignation.
I choose acceptance and contentment, because I see Ennis reaching out to others that he kept out before he met Jack. I see growth in a man that was fearful and confused. The end was only the beginning for Ennis.
As we have established that we see the movie differently, there is no need to continue making circular discussions about what you want to choose to define, and what I choose to define.
I choose to let you win your own argument. :cr)
I was going for sarcasm. ;)
No need to be perturbed or fickle. I just wanted to bring to your attention the other part of 'resignition'. We're here to challenge each other's ideas and grow, as far as I know. If you're stuck on the war of definitions, rather, that is your own tail you're chasing (^) -- when really the end, as you put it, is only the beginning. Think about it, what others are saying. And maybe you'll learn that it's not an argument but a discussion; it's entertaining the notion that our preconceived ideas can be bent or looked at differently -- Much like Ennis had been conditioned to Earl's image but now knows how to avoid devastation; that is to have an open mind.
"One curve in the road and they miss it"
One doesn't always have to miss it. :-\\
I do prefer resignition: Ennis resigned from his 'old ways' and was employed now to the ability to submit his love to those around him, rather than content on getting by with another stoic's job. Back in the days before the knowledge of love that Cassie and Alma Jr. give him, his contentment was with beans or yes, memories of Jack. But now I think Ennis has been given that knowledge, that love is now, and it's fleeting (Dad.. that was 2 years ago, I'm with KURT now), and he must hold onto it all. I think to be content is to render the value of what's now kept in his closet hollow, to close the door on what is Ennis. I believe contentment may come much later in his life. But the feeling at the end of the film for me is a deep, emotional flutter of a man still greatly in the grips of change, having fallen submissive to the strength of Brokeback.
Also, with that said, I'd like to look at this part of your quote:
"I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve."
On the same hand, Ennis may have given up on his former self (the one that couldn't shack up with Jack) to the extent that he may now love freely.
A diamond can acquire many faces, it's good to remember..
... I hope that wasn't too invasive, LC :cr)
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I was going for sarcasm. ;)
No need to be perturbed or fickle. I just wanted to bring to your attention the other part of 'resignition'. We're here to challenge each other's ideas and grow, as far as I know. If you're stuck on the war of definitions, rather, that is your own tail you're chasing (^) -- when really the end, as you put it, is only the beginning.
[...]
Also, with that said, I'd like to look at this part of your quote:
"I wouldn't call it resignation because it implies giving up when there is a chance to change, to improve."
On the same hand, Ennis may have given up on his former self (the one that couldn't shack up with Jack) to the extent that he may now love freely.
A diamond can acquire many faces, it's good to remember..
... I hope that wasn't too invasive, LC :cr)
:8 Speaking sarcastically, OT, you have a way of telling yourself what you need to hear, and borrowing what others have said to claim as your own without giving due creidt, for example, the many facet of love (came from Christie, and others). You were stuck on your own view of love, and trying to blungeon me with your repetitive and circular, sometimes nonsensical arguments. But I will try one last time to get through this fog of mis-communication you seem to be stuck with.
I am hardly combative or argumentative. I am usually very open-minded. And I must say that this is the first time I have EVER use this tone with any member of this forum. I now realize you may be on a track what others have referred to as a troll. ( see wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)
No offense intended, OT, but I don't need your combative tone, so have a nice day. See the article about the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I will continue to ignore your posts until you stop your trolling.
:c)
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:8 Speaking sarcastically, OT, you have a way of telling yourself what you need to hear, and borrowing what others have said to claim as your own without giving due creidt, for example, the many facet of love (came from Christie, and others). You were stuck on your own view of love, and trying to blungeon me with your repetitive and circular, sometimes nonsensical arguments. But I will try one last time to get through this fog of mis-communication you seem to be stuck with.
I am hardly combative or argumentative. I am usually very open-minded. And I must say that this is the first time I have EVER use this tone with any member of this forum. I now realize you may be on a track what others have referred to as a troll. ( see wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)
No offense intended, OT, but I don't need your combative tone, so have a nice day. See the article about the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. I will continue to ignore your posts until you stop your trolling.
:c)
Willing to assess a forum member, yet you won't look at two different perspectives side by side? :s)
Speaking honest, I don't mean to offend you in any way. I tend to dig right into the topic at hand, and in this case it was down to the T of two "ideal" words. And for me it's more than just a word out of the book when they're put in the context of a scene such as this. I won't try and defend what you're trying to put on me, I think you're already all too familiar with the likes. But do ignore me if that's how you'll simmer.
I will continue to respect you as a fellow Brokie, and you can believe it or not. I think the "tone" of everything to do with discussions here is reader based, and it's probably ideal that those involved absorb the content impersonally. We are all adults. Good luck with that. O0
To render a sliver of relevance into the thread here, I find the first departure off the mountain interesting:
Jack in FC admits, "I wish I knew how to quit you!" And most of us feel that Ang had many a mirrored or symbolic detail put in the film. Earlier just before the departure, when they roll around and hit each other (come to think of it, wasn't this scene/sound byte in one of the trailers for the movie?), to me it's realistic that Ennis, although out of character, could easily have said the same thing. At the least, I think his heart would have said "I wish I knew how to quit you!" -- BAM!
It astounds me just how ignorant a person can be to their own feelings, until they are verbalized.
:)
Peace, Andy :f)
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It astounds me just how ignorant a person can be to their own feelings, until they are verbalized.
:8 ditto
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:8 ditto
Aww :) I knew a ditto out of you was possible one way or another. :8
But how about something on topic. $)
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Sorry if I got things started about definitions again! :)
I am leaning towards "resignation" when it comes to Ennis's acceptance of Jack's death because he understands that he cannot bring Jack back. If we were to say contentment, the implication is that one can have the power to change this fact.
Secondly, contentment would indicate that that the current situation is good for you, and therefore, it would imply that you have no wish to change. Nobody who is content with his/her lot would want a change (either for the better or for the worst) -- that is the essence of the word itself, no? It is the same with "resignation" -- except that in this term, one accepts that there are certain things beyond one's power to change, even if you wanted to.
It is true that Ennis most probably changes in other aspects of his life -- his view on love and life's priorities, for example. Such a change cannot be described by either "contentment" or "resignation", because the will to change implies a desire to change the current state -- this goes against the grain of what it means to be content/resigned.
But in the matter of losing Jack and losing the opportunity for a sweet life, I think "resignation" is the more appropriate term. To bring back Jack and BBM was beyond Ennis's power. He had no choice but to accept and to learn from it -- perhaps by the repudiation of the fear to love.
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Sorry if I got things started about definitions again! :)
I am leaning towards "resignation" when it comes to Ennis's acceptance of Jack's death because he understands that he cannot bring Jack back. If we were to say contentment, the implication is that one can have the power to change this fact.
Secondly, contentment would indicate that that the current situation is good for you, and therefore, it would imply that you have no wish to change. Nobody who is content with his/her lot would want a change (either for the better or for the worst) -- that is the essence of the word itself, no? It is the same with "resignation" -- except that in this term, one accepts that there are certain things beyond one's power to change, even if you wanted to.
It is true that Ennis most probably changes in other aspects of his life -- his view on love and life's priorities, for example. Such a change cannot be described by either "contentment" or "resignation", because the will to change implies a desire to change the current state -- this goes against the grain of what it means to be content/resigned.
But in the matter of losing Jack and losing the opportunity for a sweet life, I think "resignation" is the more appropriate term. To bring back Jack and BBM was beyond Ennis's power. He had no choice but to accept and to learn from it -- perhaps by the repudiation of the fear to love.
Please don't apologise! :)
I like the last line as well. Do you think the same part of Ennis that can face the shirts in the closet also somehow feels a responsibility towards Jacks of finding love in precisely another man? How ambiguous do you find Ennis' sexuality at this point, compared to his general ability to express himself? I personally figure only a thin line now separates desire from his actions. But I state that vaguely..
Thoughts?
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Sorry if I got things started about definitions again! :)
I am leaning towards "resignation" when it comes to Ennis's acceptance of Jack's death because he understands that he cannot bring Jack back. If we were to say contentment, the implication is that one can have the power to change this fact.
Secondly, contentment would indicate that that the current situation is good for you, and therefore, it would imply that you have no wish to change. Nobody who is content with his/her lot would want a change (either for the better or for the worst) -- that is the essence of the word itself, no? It is the same with "resignation" -- except that in this term, one accepts that there are certain things beyond one's power to change, even if you wanted to.
It is true that Ennis most probably changes in other aspects of his life -- his view on love and life's priorities, for example. Such a change cannot be described by either "contentment" or "resignation", because the will to change implies a desire to change the current state -- this goes against the grain of what it means to be content/resigned.
But in the matter of losing Jack and losing the opportunity for a sweet life, I think "resignation" is the more appropriate term. To bring back Jack and BBM was beyond Ennis's power. He had no choice but to accept and to learn from it -- perhaps by the repudiation of the fear to love.
Hi, tpe, what you imply for contentment is stagnation. I am not sure contentment equals stagnation and not changing. I think one can be content of a dynamic situation, where there is growth and continuous improvement. I think resignation has more connotation of stagnations, as someone suggested that resignation is passive submission to circumstances. Ennis may have accepted Jack's death as unchangeable; but he also realized that he could change, and was on his way of changing out of the old ways, and into a newer, more open relationship with his daughter, and I believe with Jack's Ma. Putting up a mailbox with the numbers. Not drinking or smoking as much. These are all positive signs of a man leaving behind a past that he could not change, and stepping into a future full of hope and expectations.
It's just my take on the last few scenes. I know others have dramatically different interpretation, and I have no doubt this is off topic.
So I will stop, before the OT sign comes out. :)
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Please don't apologise! :)
I like the last line as well. Do you think the same part of Ennis that can face the shirts in the closet also somehow feels a responsibility towards Jacks of finding love in precisely another man? How ambiguous do you find Ennis' sexuality at this point, compared to his general ability to express himself? I personally figure only a thin line now separates desire from his actions. But I state that vaguely..
Thoughts?
I feel that the finding of the shirts was a turning point. In fact, I would think that Ennis accepting Jr.'s invitation hints at a lifting of the fear to love. I don't know whether in the ned, Ennis comes to terms with his sexuality, although I have no doubt that he was no longer afraid to acknowledge/accept his love for Jack WITHIN HIMSELF: he was no longer afraid to love another man, and this allowed him to love others more openly. The "conflict from within" was now perhaps lifted. But sadness and regret was not, because it was now too late...
As to responsibility, I think Ennis somehow felt that he was responsible in a fundamental way. It was part and parcel of the element of regret that marred the end.
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Hi, tpe, what you imply for contentment is stagnation. I am not sure contentment equals stagnation and not changing. I think one can be content of a dynamic situation, where there is growth and continuous improvement. I think resignation has more connotation of stagnations, as someone suggested that resignation is passive submission to circumstances. Ennis may have accepted Jack's death as unchangeable; but he also realized that he could change, and was on his way of changing out of the old ways, and into a newer, more open relationship with his daughter, and I believe with Jack's Ma. Putting up a mailbox with the numbers. Not drinking or smoking as much. These are all positive signs of a man leaving behind a past that he could not change, and stepping into a future full of hope and expectations.
It's just my take on the last few scenes. I know others have dramatically different interpretation, and I have no doubt this is off topic.
So I will stop, before the OT sign comes out. :)
Resignation is used here to imply a state of grace -- it is a realization of one's limitations, and it implies that one accepts what one cannot change.
Your premise is that something can be done. One feels that one is stagnating when one senses that once can change certain things for the better.
As I said in my post, there are certain things that Ennis realized that he could change (as is implied in his accepting Jr.'s wedding invitation.) But in the matter to getting back Jack and the full power of BBM, this is something that he cannot change.
I felt that Ennis realized this, and was therefore resigned. No matter what he did, he cannot bring back Jack. Again, stagnation implies a sense of discontentment born out of a belief that one can change things if one wills it. This is certainly not the case with Ennis, in the matter of bringing back Jack or BBM.
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I feel that the finding of the shirts was a turning point. In fact, I would think that Ennis accepting Jr.'s invitation hints at a lifting of the fear to love. I don't know whether in the ned, Ennis comes to terms with his sexuality, although I have no doubt that he was no longer afraid to acknowledge/accept his love for Jack WITHIN HIMSELF: he was no longer afraid to love another man, and this allowed him to love others more openly. The "conflict from within" was now perhaps lifted. But sadness and regret was not, because it was now too late...
As to responsibility, I think Ennis somehow felt that he was responsible in a fundamental way. It was part and parcel of the element of regret that marred the end.
Thank you, I like how you state that. My optimistic side roots for this part of Ennis like a &**) on bad drugs, although I know it's not so cut and dry. As you say, perhaps the conflict from within was lifted. And I agree with that.
The closing of this film hits so many feelings for me, some unresolved. And I also find it incredibly cinematic how it pushes all of the prior story into its last frame. Also, when Ennis is looking out of the window while talking to Alma Jr., very haunting for me to watch. For one of the first times, he looks as if he's searching himself and discovering what's inside. It's so bittersweet that he's finally learning to speak from his heart.
He was never able to do this during his love affair with Jack, and I venture to think it really would first take resignation. It would take having the love and then its absense. Having Jack and losing him is what makes "You don't got nothing, you don't need nothing" so poignant for me. And it comes from Ennis' heart, from a man who's had the (dis)pleasure of studying the love of his life. That scene with Alma Jr. where the light rests on his face, seems to play a lyrical part in that "lift" in my eyes. :)
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Thank you, I like how you state that. My optimistic side roots for this part of Ennis like a &**) on bad drugs, although I know it's not so cut and dry. As you say, perhaps the conflict from within was lifted. And I agree with that.
The closing of this film hits so many feelings for me, some unresolved. And I also find it incredibly cinematic how it pushes all of the prior story into its last frame. Also, when Ennis is looking out of the window while talking to Alma Jr., very haunting for me to watch. For one of the first times, he looks as if he's searching himself and discovering what's inside. It's so bittersweet that he's finally learning to speak from his heart.
He was never able to do this during his love affair with Jack, and I venture to think it really would first take resignation. It would take having the love and then its absense. Having Jack and losing him is what makes "You don't got nothing, you don't need nothing" so poignant for me. And it comes from Ennis' heart, from a man who's had the (dis)pleasure of studying the love of his life. That scene with Alma Jr. where the light rests on his face, seems to play a lyrical part in that "lift" in my eyes. :)
The screenplay is of course explicit in the mood that it paints in that closing scene: it refers to the vast and lonely plains.
Loneliness has replaced fear in the end, perhaps?
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The screenplay is of course explicit in the mood that it paints in that closing scene: it refers to the vast and lonely plains.
Loneliness has replaced fear in the end, perhaps?
As he seems to be between jobs so to speak, I can eerily think so; loneliness is what I see in him and his eyes before he shuts the door to the closet. A bit like a "where do I go from here now that my heart's been scraped clean" although he has a much better idea now. :s) And good thing he's got the girls, destinations for his love as it needs to be stimulated and not laid down to die.
But really, just how bad can one be with a clean slate? Back then hell, he just quit the jobs. Only now I think he sees it's not only a job, but it's also a life. He needed his ass kicked by love, to know this, maybe.
For now I like thinking of it as recovery. He's a victim of love (and no doubt Jack was too) in recovery. And like the drug addict or alcoholic (but in Ennis' case, a deeper thing called love), he will eventually step outside with a smile, unafraid -- for what he had was true, and I doubt any man 'quits' something true. He is far from content.
A humble note for me, anyhow.. :cr)
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The screenplay is of course explicit in the mood that it paints in that closing scene: it refers to the vast and lonely plains.
Loneliness has replaced fear in the end, perhaps?
Ennis was smiling as he put the numbers on his mailbox. He was smiling when Alma Jr drove up. He was smiling when they sat down to talk.
Ennis was alone most of his life. Call it whatever you want, resigned to loss, resigned to loneliness, whatever.
In my view, Ennis was content to have loved and lost, and gained the love of Jack's Ma.
If he was never at Lightning Flat, I'd say Ennis would be devastated, and lonely and resigned, etc...as you seem to think.
But I cannot ignore the scenes of him in Lightning Flat, in the closet, in the kitchen, as he said goodbye to Jack's Ma. To me, Ennis found new hope in life.
To me, this forum is Lightning Flat, and all the love and supportive members are like Jack's Ma.
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Going back to the art of the individual interpretation, I think the final product of the trailer scene is something a person captures with their own experience; it's the feeling they want to keep in their own lives. One may be optimistic, knowing they can work out feelings of lonliness, thus using the word resigned and (temporary) lonliness. Others perhaps may need to hold onto the fact that Ennis had everything he needed, rendering the idea of going 1-2 more decades alone as something satisfactory or at all fulfilling.
Just an idea. Just as everyone looking at Picasso isn't going to manifest the same value.
Ennis' first love was Jack, and I can't quite cheat him out of his potential even at about 40 years old, to grow after that. Easily replaced is Jack? Nah of course not. But after having just now learned the secret of love, I think he's going to share it with yes, his daughters for starters. But everyone needs a mate, even if what seemed like his soulmate has left Ennis. He knows now that he is not adequate without someone like Jack to love; he is now a work in progress. And I don't think for a minute, even with Ma Twist's support (perhaps that alone is his fuel forward in his new life), he's stopping on the illusion of being content, alone in his trailer. If anything, he's just walking the bridge out of stoicism. A bit like signing out.
Alma was his meal ticket to exist; Jack was his meal ticket to live. Ennis isn't going to plant himself in that trailer.
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Going back to the art of the individual interpretation, I think the final product of the trailer scene is something a person captures with their own experience; it's the feeling they want to keep in their own lives. One may be optimistic, knowing they can work out feelings of lonliness, thus using the word resigned and (temporary) lonliness. Others perhaps may need to hold onto the fact that Ennis had everything he needed, rendering the idea of going 1-2 more decades alone as something satisfactory or at all fulfilling.
Just an idea. Just as everyone looking at Picasso isn't going to manifest the same value.
Ennis' first love was Jack, and I can't quite cheat him out of his potential even at about 40 years old, to grow after that. Easily replaced is Jack? Nah of course not. But after having just now learned the secret of love, I think he's going to share it with yes, his daughters for starters. But everyone needs a mate, even if what seemed like his soulmate has left Ennis. He knows now that he is not adequate without someone like Jack to love; he is now a work in progress. And I don't think for a minute, even with Ma Twist's support (perhaps that alone is his fuel forward in his new life), he's stopping on the illusion of being content, alone in his trailer. If anything, he's just walking the bridge out of stoicism. A bit like signing out.
Alma was his meal ticket to exist; Jack was his meal ticket to live. Ennis isn't going to plant himself in that trailer.
I agree with every word.
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Going back to the art of the individual interpretation, I think the final product of the trailer scene is something a person captures with their own experience; it's the feeling they want to keep in their own lives. One may be optimistic, knowing they can work out feelings of lonliness, thus using the word resigned and (temporary) lonliness. Others perhaps may need to hold onto the fact that Ennis had everything he needed, rendering the idea of going 1-2 more decades alone as something satisfactory or at all fulfilling.
Just an idea. Just as everyone looking at Picasso isn't going to manifest the same value.
Ennis' first love was Jack, and I can't quite cheat him out of his potential even at about 40 years old, to grow after that. Easily replaced is Jack? Nah of course not. But after having just now learned the secret of love, I think he's going to share it with yes, his daughters for starters. But everyone needs a mate, even if what seemed like his soulmate has left Ennis. He knows now that he is not adequate without someone like Jack to love; he is now a work in progress. And I don't think for a minute, even with Ma Twist's support (perhaps that alone is his fuel forward in his new life), he's stopping on the illusion of being content, alone in his trailer. If anything, he's just walking the bridge out of stoicism. A bit like signing out.
Alma was his meal ticket to exist; Jack was his meal ticket to live. Ennis isn't going to plant himself in that trailer.
I agree to a certain extent what you said above, except the part about Ennis' intention to find a mate, to find love again.
I would be happy for Ennis to find love again, or rather, for love to find Ennis again. However, in the shortstory, Ennis was stuck with Jack. It is entirely consistent with Ennis' character to hold on to the love of his life, with his memories of Brokeback Mountain. I agree that we interpret the movie with our own vision of what we want. And I don't fault anyone to want Ennis to have another love of his life again. As many members here can testify, sometimes, people can be lucky, and experience love twice in a life time.
However, I think it would be honest to see Ennis as Ennis, the man who was attracted only to Jack (according to his own confession in the motel room in the short story) and who was content with a couple of high attitude f@#$s a few times a year (according to Jack in the movie). Not everyone is able to live a life of solitude, as Ennis was doing. I think it was Tony and Jackster who told me that for an introvert like Ennis, living in a world of his own, with his own memories of Jack, was possible and easier than for an extrovert like Jack, who needs external validation and stimulation to exist, to live. I think, in my opinion, living in his own reality with his memories, is preferable for Ennis, than to live in a world full of hostilities and incomprehensible rules and customs. It is one thing to interpret the movie, and quite another to project one's own interpretation into the movie and insist that is the truth. I think we need to be true to the character, and allow it to grow and evolve according to its own world-view, not our modern gay-liberated expectations.
Not every gay man needs to be in a relationship. Ennis can be just as happy, without f@#Eing anyone or any sheep. ;D
In fact, I have been toying with the idea of writing a continuation of Ennis after the last scene. This may be just the impetus I needed to get me going, to show my own vision of how love will find Ennis again, even though he is happy with his two shirts, the trailer, the mailbox, Jack's Ma, his daughters, his ranch buddies, his memories. It may be off topic here, but it is related to the fact that after the initial fear of love in '63, Ennis evolved over the twenty years, with Jack's help to embrace the love between them, and finally, be open to love of other kind, of friendship, of family. It is not necessary to have romantic love to be fulfilled. That is a fallacy of the modern age. IMO.
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I agree to a certain extent what you said above, except the part about Ennis' intention to find a mate, to find love again.
I would be happy for Ennis to find love again, or rather, for love to find Ennis again. However, in the shortstory, Ennis was stuck with Jack. It is entirely consistent with Ennis' character to hold on to the love of his life, with his memories of Brokeback Mountain. I agree that we interpret the movie with our own vision of what we want. And I don't fault anyone to want Ennis to have another love of his life again. As many members here can testify, sometimes, people can be lucky, and experience love twice in a life time.
However, I think it would be honest to see Ennis as Ennis, the man who was attracted only to Jack (according to his own confession in the motel room in the short story) and who was content with a couple of high attitude f@#$s a few times a year (according to Jack in the movie). Not everyone is able to live a life of solitude, as Ennis was doing. I think it was Tony and Jackster who told me that for an introvert like Ennis, living in a world of his own, with his own memories of Jack, was possible and easier than for an extrovert like Jack, who needs external validation and stimulation to exist, to live. I think, in my opinion, living in his own reality with his memories, is preferable for Ennis, than to live in a world full of hostilities and incomprehensible rules and customs. It is one thing to interpret the movie, and quite another to project one's own interpretation into the movie and insist that is the truth. I think we need to be true to the character, and allow it to grow and evolve according to its own world-view, not our modern gay-liberated expectations.
Not every gay man needs to be in a relationship. Ennis can be just as happy, without f@#Eing anyone or any sheep. ;D
In fact, I have been toying with the idea of writing a continuation of Ennis after the last scene. This may be just the impetus I needed to get me going, to show my own vision of how love will find Ennis again, even though he is happy with his two shirts, the trailer, the mailbox, Jack's Ma, his daughters, his ranch buddies, his memories. It may be off topic here, but it is related to the fact that after the initial fear of love in '63, Ennis evolved over the twenty years, with Jack's help to embrace the love between them, and finally, be open to love of other kind, of friendship, of family. It is not necessary to have romantic love to be fulfilled. That is a fallacy of the modern age. IMO.
True!!! Love your post, Andrew!!! ^f^
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I like to go back to the SS's closing. If you can't fix it, you got to stand it. This was a quick kick in the heart for most readers including myself. Like a nerd with a Scooby lunchpail gets hammered in the gut by the shcool bully, and recovers with too much pain and shock to think of his next move, we slap the book shut and throw it on the table and sort of (t)
It's this, Annie's backdrop to Ennis' literal "Jack, I swear.." (rather than "if you can't fix it..") that does give me something to follow:
He wasn't now going to stand it like an overly seasoned stoic. He was only going to stand it so long as love didn't fall from the sky and interrupt him again. He does not say "if you can't fix it, you got to stand it" this time, no. That is simply the black hole of the story that many like myself perceive Ennis climbing out of. When I suggest Ennis needs someone like Jack to love, I'm speaking for his understanding that he needs genuine love and not to hide from it when it knocks on his door. He's not actively pursueing it. He's perhaps open to the light of love now. I think the memories of Jack that he holds onto, are seen now in this light. I get this in the scene of him mumbling to Alma Jr. as he's staring out of the open window, articulating the idiosyncrasies of a freshly open heart.
His knowing love really is feasible, is perhaps more powerful than having another mate for now, yes. The window to opportunity can be somethin' else. Knowin this, and holding onto Jack can very well do the trick. I don't dismiss that. I also won't dismiss the potential of any forward motion though. If anything, I'd like to see how Ennis would fall in love again when/if possible; it would stimulate my ability to do the same. I would certainly appreciate knowing just how to do this. :)
Should you choose to write something of said extension, I would find an interest in reading it, Andrew. Let us know?
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It seems to me that given Ennis's character, once Jack is dead and the shirts there as a daily reminder of what they had, he is in a way more at ease with himself simply because he no longer fears discovery, no longer goes through the emotional roller-coaster of the infrequent meetings, no longer has to justify to himself why he constantly refuses Jack's requests to settle together. Jack is now part of a past that he can remember and Ennis is freed from any further active involvement with him.
It's sometimes easier to live with memories of the past than go ioon in a situation which causes constent stress; I think, rather as when someone dies after a long illness, there's an element of relief for Ennis in Jack's death. There's also a sense that Jack is now secure from the vicissitudes of life and aging; he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now.
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It seems to me that given Ennis's character, once Jack is dead and the shirts there as a daily reminder of what they had, he is in a way more at ease with himself simply because he no longer fears discovery, no longer goes through the emotional roller-coaster of the infrequent meetings, no longer has to justify to himself why he constantly refuses Jack's requests to settle together. Jack is now part of a past that he can remember and Ennis is freed from any further active involvement with him.
It's sometimes easier to live with memories of the past than go ioon in a situation which causes constent stress; I think, rather as when someone dies after a long illness, there's an element of relief for Ennis in Jack's death. There's also a sense that Jack is now secure from the vicissitudes of life and aging; he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now.
I like the sentiment I get from this. Great way to put both men in perspective here..
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As he seems to be between jobs so to speak, I can eerily think so; loneliness is what I see in him and his eyes before he shuts the door to the closet. A bit like a "where do I go from here now that my heart's been scraped clean" although he has a much better idea now. :s) And good thing he's got the girls, destinations for his love as it needs to be stimulated and not laid down to die.
But really, just how bad can one be with a clean slate? Back then hell, he just quit the jobs. Only now I think he sees it's not only a job, but it's also a life. He needed his ass kicked by love, to know this, maybe.
For now I like thinking of it as recovery. He's a victim of love (and no doubt Jack was too) in recovery. And like the drug addict or alcoholic (but in Ennis' case, a deeper thing called love), he will eventually step outside with a smile, unafraid -- for what he had was true, and I doubt any man 'quits' something true. He is far from content.
A humble note for me, anyhow.. :cr)
"Recovery" is an interesting way to put it -- it implies a period of withdrawal, which is what I assume he did in between LF and Alma Jr.'s final visit. Of course, the screenplay indicates a lapse of nearly 2 years between the scenes...
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Ennis was smiling as he put the numbers on his mailbox. He was smiling when Alma Jr drove up. He was smiling when they sat down to talk.
Ennis was alone most of his life. Call it whatever you want, resigned to loss, resigned to loneliness, whatever.
In my view, Ennis was content to have loved and lost, and gained the love of Jack's Ma.
If he was never at Lightning Flat, I'd say Ennis would be devastated, and lonely and resigned, etc...as you seem to think.
But I cannot ignore the scenes of him in Lightning Flat, in the closet, in the kitchen, as he said goodbye to Jack's Ma. To me, Ennis found new hope in life.
To me, this forum is Lightning Flat, and all the love and supportive members are like Jack's Ma.
As I think all of us would agree, a smile does not mean that the person is happy. I persoanlly thought that Ennis's smiles throughout the final scene was one dominated by melancholy. And this is affirmed by the burning tears near the end.
But we also know that melancholy can also hide a degree of contentment, perhaps happiness -- at least a lifting up of some burden. True, he was lonely for most of his life, so perhaps we can look at things relatively.
Overall, I suspect that his fears were (at least) partially abated in the end.
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"Recovery" is an interesting way to put it -- it implies a period of withdrawal, which is what I assume he did in between LF and Alma Jr.'s final visit. Of course, the screenplay indicates a lapse of nearly 2 years between the scenes...
Yeah, and now I find it interesting that Alma Jr. says "Daddy, that was two years ago. I'm seeing Kurt now".
I wonder if that hit Ennis hard with the notion that love was replaceable after two years, but not his for Jack..
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It seems to me that given Ennis's character, once Jack is dead and the shirts there as a daily reminder of what they had, he is in a way more at ease with himself simply because he no longer fears discovery, no longer goes through the emotional roller-coaster of the infrequent meetings, no longer has to justify to himself why he constantly refuses Jack's requests to settle together. Jack is now part of a past that he can remember and Ennis is freed from any further active involvement with him.
It's sometimes easier to live with memories of the past than go ioon in a situation which causes constent stress; I think, rather as when someone dies after a long illness, there's an element of relief for Ennis in Jack's death. There's also a sense that Jack is now secure from the vicissitudes of life and aging; he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now.
THis is quite interesting, IMO. Certainly, I can see an element of relief here: perhaps this is what I took to be a partial abatement of his fears... I love how you say it: that "he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now."
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As I think all of us would agree, a smile does not mean that the person is happy. I persoanlly thought that Ennis's smiles throughout the final scene was one dominated by melancholy. And this is affirmed by the burning tears near the end.
But we also know that melancholy can also hide a degree of contentment, perhaps happiness -- at least a lifting up of some burden. True, he was lonely for most of his life, so perhaps we can look at things relatively.
Overall, I suspect that his fears were (at least) partially abated in the end.
Ditto. O0
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Yeah, and now I find it interesting tha Alma Jr. says "Daddy, that was two years ago. I'm seeing Kurt now".
I wonder if that his Ennis hard with the notion that love was replaceable after two years, but not his for Jack..
This is quite insightful -- I had never thought of it that way. It would have struck Ennis as a bit ironic, perhaps? This is slightly OT, but interesting point, I must confess...
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It seems to me that given Ennis's character, once Jack is dead and the shirts there as a daily reminder of what they had, he is in a way more at ease with himself simply because he no longer fears discovery, no longer goes through the emotional roller-coaster of the infrequent meetings, no longer has to justify to himself why he constantly refuses Jack's requests to settle together. Jack is now part of a past that he can remember and Ennis is freed from any further active involvement with him.
It's sometimes easier to live with memories of the past than go ioon in a situation which causes constent stress; I think, rather as when someone dies after a long illness, there's an element of relief for Ennis in Jack's death. There's also a sense that Jack is now secure from the vicissitudes of life and aging; he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now.
I know I'm probably not understanding this well, so sorry if I say stupid things...but are you all saying that Ennis was in some way "happy" because Jack was dead and he had not to keep fighting with his fears? Are you saying he preferred that, Jack being dead, because he was finally freed from him? If that is like that, I think it's horrible and very sad. I can't believe that. I'm sure he preferred Jack alive and keep suffering and not Jack dead and being freed from suffering and fears....
Well, if you was not talking about that, SORRY!! It's just my English: I don't get things right!! ^f^
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It seems to me that given Ennis's character, once Jack is dead and the shirts there as a daily reminder of what they had, he is in a way more at ease with himself simply because he no longer fears discovery, no longer goes through the emotional roller-coaster of the infrequent meetings, no longer has to justify to himself why he constantly refuses Jack's requests to settle together. Jack is now part of a past that he can remember and Ennis is freed from any further active involvement with him.
It's sometimes easier to live with memories of the past than go ioon in a situation which causes constent stress; I think, rather as when someone dies after a long illness, there's an element of relief for Ennis in Jack's death. There's also a sense that Jack is now secure from the vicissitudes of life and aging; he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now.
I would tend to agree with this to a certain degree, but I would totally agree had Ennis not changed.
I feel he changed after Jack's death in a way that stayed with him. He practically made a shrine in his closet , a reminder of his time with Jack. Thru this display he can re-live their love whenever he wanted. He dreamed and saw Jack there. Swore that he would use the lessons Jack taught him.
No, he would no longer have fear of discovery or any of the obstacles that they dealt with, Ennis, as some have said had a*come to Jesus moment* in LF when he found the shirts. The devastation of Jack's death moved him to admit some deep realizations to himself that only came clear to him after Jack's death. He realized that Jack really did love him and more important to Ennis that he really loved Jack too. That this is what their 20 yr relationship meant. The way Jack made him feel,The longing and need for Jack's presence meant something. It meant he was in love. He was forced to come clean about it.
It was not only what Jack did for him, but what Jack did to him. He recieved a lot from Jack and took it in , became a part of him, a true freind and partner in life. Indeed a part of him died when Jack died. He no longer had that , could'nt enjoy Jack again like he wanted and needed to , that part was stolen away from him and he had to learn to lived with that empty, vacant spot, what he could have done to prevent it, including ranching up. The loss was great.
Though he did not have the roller-coaster ride any longer, and the fearful secrecy, I feel at that moment he tearfully embraced those shirts, he knew the loss. But Jack did'nt just leave Ennis adrift in sorrow. Tough he was gone, he left a legacy of love for Ennis to live by. Certainly Ennis had regrets, but I feel he would have traded all his fears, shame and failure to commit to Jack ,for one more look, one more touch of his precious Jack at that moment., but he did find the shirts, and the message contained in them. Knowing the depth of Jack's love and now knowing what this loss means to him, I think he do anything to have Jack alive and well , Still giving him what he needed. Think he was a lot more than just relieved. He was changed forever for it.
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I would tend to agree with this to a certain degree, but I would totally agree had Ennis not changed.
I feel he changed after Jack's death in a way that stayed with him. He practically made a shrine in his closet , a reminder of his time with Jack. Thru this display he can re-live their love whenever he wanted. He dreamed and saw Jack there. Swore that he would use the lessons Jack taught him.
No, he would no longer have fear of discovery or any of the obstacles that they dealt with, Ennis, as some have said had a*come to Jesus moment* in LF when he found the shirts. The devastation of Jack's death moved him to admit some deep realizations to himself that only came clear to him after Jack's death. He realized that Jack really did love him and more important to Ennis that he really loved Jack too. That this is what their 20 yr relationship meant. The way Jack made him feel,The longing and need for Jack's presence meant something. It meant he was in love. He was forced to come clean about it.
It was not only what Jack did for him, but what Jack did to him. He recieved a lot from Jack and took it in , became a part of him, a true freind and partner in life. Indeed a part of him died when Jack died. He no longer had that , could'nt enjoy Jack again like he wanted and needed to , that part was stolen away from him and he had to learn to lived with that empty, vacant spot, what he could have done to prevent it, including ranching up. The loss was great.
Though he did not have the roller-coaster ride any longer, and the fearful secrecy, I feel at that moment he tearfully embraced those shirts, he knew the loss. But Jack did'nt just leave Ennis adrift in sorrow. Tough he was gone, he left a legacy of love for Ennis to live by. Certainly Ennis had regrets, but I feel he would have traded all his fears, shame and failure to commit to Jack ,for one more look, one more touch of his precious Jack at that moment., but he did find the shirts, and the message contained in them. Knowing the depth of Jack's love and now knowing what this loss means to him, I think he do anything to have Jack alive and well , Still giving him what he needed. Think he was a lot more than just relieved. He was changed forever for it.
Aintfoolin, I couldn't have said it any better.
Wow, you describe this so beautifully...you have said what i wanted to say but i couldn't find the words.
Thank you <^(
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It seems to me that given Ennis's character, once Jack is dead and the shirts there as a daily reminder of what they had, he is in a way more at ease with himself simply because he no longer fears discovery, no longer goes through the emotional roller-coaster of the infrequent meetings, no longer has to justify to himself why he constantly refuses Jack's requests to settle together. Jack is now part of a past that he can remember and Ennis is freed from any further active involvement with him.
It's sometimes easier to live with memories of the past than go ioon in a situation which causes constent stress; I think, rather as when someone dies after a long illness, there's an element of relief for Ennis in Jack's death. There's also a sense that Jack is now secure from the vicissitudes of life and aging; he also belongs to Ennis almost entirely now.
If Ennis had another bite at that apple, and it made his stomach hurt, I think he would stand the pain, because it was so sweet. JMO
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If Ennis had another bite at that apple, and it made his stomach hurt, I think he would stand the pain, because it was so sweet. JMO
Wonderful metaphor! Although sometimes, we crave especially the astringency of sour fruit. :)
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I would tend to agree with this to a certain degree, but I would totally agree had Ennis not changed.
I feel he changed after Jack's death in a way that stayed with him. He practically made a shrine in his closet , a reminder of his time with Jack. Thru this display he can re-live their love whenever he wanted. He dreamed and saw Jack there. Swore that he would use the lessons Jack taught him.
No, he would no longer have fear of discovery or any of the obstacles that they dealt with, Ennis, as some have said had a*come to Jesus moment* in LF when he found the shirts. The devastation of Jack's death moved him to admit some deep realizations to himself that only came clear to him after Jack's death. He realized that Jack really did love him and more important to Ennis that he really loved Jack too. That this is what their 20 yr relationship meant. The way Jack made him feel,The longing and need for Jack's presence meant something. It meant he was in love. He was forced to come clean about it.
It was not only what Jack did for him, but what Jack did to him. He recieved a lot from Jack and took it in , became a part of him, a true freind and partner in life. Indeed a part of him died when Jack died. He no longer had that , could'nt enjoy Jack again like he wanted and needed to , that part was stolen away from him and he had to learn to lived with that empty, vacant spot, what he could have done to prevent it, including ranching up. The loss was great.
Though he did not have the roller-coaster ride any longer, and the fearful secrecy, I feel at that moment he tearfully embraced those shirts, he knew the loss. But Jack did'nt just leave Ennis adrift in sorrow. Tough he was gone, he left a legacy of love for Ennis to live by. Certainly Ennis had regrets, but I feel he would have traded all his fears, shame and failure to commit to Jack ,for one more look, one more touch of his precious Jack at that moment., but he did find the shirts, and the message contained in them. Knowing the depth of Jack's love and now knowing what this loss means to him, I think he do anything to have Jack alive and well , Still giving him what he needed. Think he was a lot more than just relieved. He was changed forever for it.
Beautiful, beautiful AF!! I love the whole post but especially the last part. You just said what I needed to hear. ^f^
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It's funny, how something old can be something new again.
I was just taking my long stroll in the sun today, when all of a sudden it struck me what this meant, fear of love. I didn't understand this thread all this time, but now I see it, and agree with most of what had been said.
Poor Ennis...his fear was not just his homophobia from his daddy, but also his fear of love for the lack of love from all 'em years.
That summer of '63 was the closest he was ever going to get to loving and being loved. Sitting there on the grassy knoll, thinking, thinking of the love, the love to be lost, wanting but afraid, yearning but feeling helpless.
That fight was all the anger and frustration released. And then for four years afterwards, the regret, the fear, the anger, the guilt, ... No wonder he was ecstatic seeing Jack again. That reunion was all the love coming back in one rushing moment.
And then finding the shirts after twenty years, after losing Jack, in the grief of forever losing the love of his life.
In a way, the story had to end that way. Ennis was not only homophobic, but also afraid of love, afraid of loving and being loved. Even if Jack were not there in the middle, his marriage with Alma was doomed. There was affection but not love. He would do anything for Alma and the girls, even moving to Riverton, but he wasn't loved and loving the way he was with Jack, totaling and completing, touching and merging of two souls. He could only love Jack the way it was, a few times a year in the middle of no where, or forever in the closet of his empty trailer, and every once in a while in his dreams wetting his pillows or his sheets. To love Jack more often than that, even if it were possible, meant a kind of vulnerability and submission to another, that was just too foreign for the always independent self-reliant cowboy. It was okay when they were two work buddies on the mountain, but out of it, down in civilization, even in Denver or San Francisco, Ennis would only be what he was with Cassie, always there but pulling away. Never committing.
Poor Ennis. I think I was holding back writing the rest of my fan fiction, the continuation, Return to Brokeback Mountain. I didn't think I had enough to write about the life of Ennis after losing Jack. It's funny, how I thought I knew Ennis, when I didn't know him that well at all. I don't if I do now. I guess I will have to watch the movie, read the short story, again and again.
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Great post 'Cowboy.
We all need to Return to Brokeback Mountain now an' then.
Thinkin' a you today, 4th April.
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Great post 'Cowboy.
We all need to Return to Brokeback Mountain now an' then.
Thinkin' a you today, 4th April.
Thanks, Jackster. I've been thinking of you ever since we met. That was thoughtful of you to stop off to meet.
I am glad you enjoyed our conversations. In a way, it was our talks, and also serendipitously, learning about bobandjack.org, and now, learning about Chris Isherwood and Don Bachardy that triggered my thoughts on this thread again. What did these long relationships have, why did these couples last so long, that Ennis and Jack didn't have. It couldn't have been just homophobia, because there were also other gay couples, who were not afraid to of coming out, and yet, their relationships never lasted, never took off even. These were the Ennises who were afraid of commitment, who were afraid of loving and being loved. Fear of love...I knew this was a great thread when Tony started it, but just didn't understand why. Now I think I have an idea.
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Lance, your post reminded me of a movie review in which Ennis Del Mar was described as a classic western hero, who rides towards sunset, holding a deep sorrow of a lost love in his heart, no matter what a gender that love was. It is stated that BBM is in a way a classic western, in which was not meant that hero marry his only love, less for the restrains of the society and more because of the very nature of the specific, noble and individualistic solitary - the hero, Ennis! Also, it says that the solitary will suffer all his life for the lost love in his heart, nevertheless he can not feel any community as his own, coz he doesn't belong anywhere but to himself, his depressed feelings and melancholic memories...
I hope that you can understand my translation of the review. It gave me a whole new perspective of the movie. Not that it made any easier for me ( a Jack's lover), but I see a new side of Ennis (and Jack)... and somehow your post reminded me of that.
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Every cowboy should know how to recognize his Jack along the way, grab him, slam him against the wall and do whatever it takes to keep him ::) .... and forget riding towards the sunset and the melancholy - only love is what matters in the end, I think!
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Uh, I was writing so long (with some pauses) that you posted again in the mean time. Well my previous post refers to your previous post... ^*() did I make myself clear? :i
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Lance, your post reminded me of a movie review in which Ennis Del Mar was described as a classic western hero, who rides towards sunset, holding a deep sorrow of a lost love in his heart, no matter what a gender that love was. It is stated that BBM is in a way a classic western, in which was not meant that hero marry his only love, less for the restrains of the society and more because of the very nature of the specific, noble and individualistic solitary - the hero, Ennis! Also, it says that the solitary will suffer all his life for the lost love in his heart, nevertheless he can not feel any community as his own, coz he doesn't belong anywhere but to himself, his depressed feelings and melancholic memories...
I hope that you can understand my translation of the review. It gave me a whole new perspective of the movie. Not that it made any easier for me ( a Jack's lover), but I see a new side of Ennis (and Jack)... and somehow your post reminded me of that.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Every cowboy should know how to recognize his Jack along the way, grab him, slam him against the wall and do whatever it takes to keep him[/b] ::) .... and forget riding towards the sunset and the melancholy - only love is what matters in the end, I think!
Thank you loreen. Your translation of the review is beautiful, and apt. I never thought of it that way, but once you pointed it out, it makes perfect sense. Instead of the cowboy riding off into the sunset alone, in his solitary journey through life, we watch Ennis in that perfect last scene, and then the camera pan off into the distance, a thin strip of yellow leading off to the horizon.
I love this interpretation, and I only disagree with one point, the melancholy memories. As you know, I prefer to think of Ennis with his memories of the joy they shared, and not just the sorrow of love lost, opportunities missed. But that's just me.
Although I love the way you put what I quoted in red, I also think that was a special one-of. Ennis missed Jack for 'em four long years, thinking he lost him after the sucker punch, that Jack was sore. And Ennis was lucky to have Jack back in his life. That's why he was so happy, thanking the stars by the river and the fire. Yet, he was still afraid, and couldn't take the reins of the sweet life. That's the fear of love, even in the presence of the ecstasy of reunion.
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Thank you loreen. Your translation of the review is beautiful, and apt. I never thought of it that way, but once you pointed it out, it makes perfect sense. Instead of the cowboy riding off into the sunset alone, in his solitary journey through life, we watch Ennis in that perfect last scene, and then the camera pan off into the distance, a thin strip of yellow leading off to the horizon.
I love this interpretation, and I only disagree with one point, the melancholy memories. As you know, I prefer to think of Ennis with his memories of the joy they shared, and not just the sorrow of love lost, opportunities missed. But that's just me.
Although I love the way you put what I quoted in red, I also think that was a special one-of. Ennis missed Jack for 'em four long years, thinking he lost him after the sucker punch, that Jack was sore. And Ennis was lucky to have Jack back in his life. That's why he was so happy, thanking the stars by the river and the fire. Yet, he was still afraid, and couldn't take the reins of the sweet life. That's the fear of love, even in the presence of the ecstasy of reunion.
Lance, we disagree about the end of the movie, but I firmly believe ( and I think that you know that) that this forum would be much poorer without your different, special, optimistic point of view! ^f^ I can't experience it in my heart, but I envy you for that in a way! You obviously see something that I'm not given.
I'm not sure if in the review they see the main character in the light of destroying sorrow in him, I think more as a sorrow incorporated, like the natural part of him, without which he would not be what he is...I don't know if this make sense, but he is supposed to be a solitary. The lost love is an inseparable part of him. And that reminds me of Ennis.
As for the reunion kiss: yes, Ennis was waiting for his beloved Jack for 4 long years, but some other Ennises are waiting for their Jacks who they don't know yet, maybe even a lifetime... enough reason for the crazy kiss when... ;)
*o) About your fanfic - a few times I bumped into some people who were very interested in the next chapter. I think that you should continue writing ( although for now I still don't read fan fic about the time after Jack's death :( ), but for your other readers... maybe you can make some effort and give them a pleasure of reading more of your beautiful words. :)
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Lance, we disagree about the end of the movie, but I firmly believe ( and I think that you know that) that this forum would be much poorer without your different, special, optimistic point of view! ^f^ I can't experience it in my heart, but I envy you for that in a way! You obviously see something that I'm not given.
I'm not sure if in the review they see the main character in the light of destroying sorrow in him, I think more as a sorrow incorporated, like the natural part of him, without which he would not be what he is...I don't know if this make sense, but he is supposed to be a solitary. The lost love is an inseparable part of him. And that reminds me of Ennis.
As for the reunion kiss: yes, Ennis was waiting for his beloved Jack for 4 long years, but some other Ennises are waiting for their Jacks who they don't know yet, maybe even a lifetime... enough reason for the crazy kiss when... ;)
*o) About your fanfic - a few times I bumped into some people who were very interested in the next chapter. I think that you should continue writing ( although for now I still don't read fan fic about the time after Jack's death :( ), but for your other readers... maybe you can make some effort and give them a pleasure of reading more of your beautiful words. :)
Thanks for all your kind words, loreen.
Perhaps now that I see Ennis more fully, I am ready to continue with the story, I have an outline planned for many years ahead. It was just stalled because I felt something was missing so I had no motivation to overcome all the stress and grief of late.
With loving fans and support like yours, how can I not continue the life of Ennis and his search for completeness? :ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^
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Lance, we disagree about the end of the movie, but I firmly believe ( and I think that you know that) that this forum would be much poorer without your different, special, optimistic point of view! ^f^ I can't experience it in my heart, but I envy you for that in a way! You obviously see something that I'm not given.
I'm not sure if in the review they see the main character in the light of destroying sorrow in him, I think more as a sorrow incorporated, like the natural part of him, without which he would not be what he is...I don't know if this make sense, but he is supposed to be a solitary. The lost love is an inseparable part of him. And that reminds me of Ennis.
As for the reunion kiss: yes, Ennis was waiting for his beloved Jack for 4 long years, but some other Ennises are waiting for their Jacks who they don't know yet, maybe even a lifetime... enough reason for the crazy kiss when... ;)
*o) About your fanfic - a few times I bumped into some people who were very interested in the next chapter. I think that you should continue writing ( although for now I still don't read fan fic about the time after Jack's death :( ), but for your other readers... maybe you can make some effort and give them a pleasure of reading more of your beautiful words. :)
That did indeed make sense and was very well expressed. As was the part in blue. Thank you. ^f^
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This thread's taken an real interesting turn here bringing cowboys and/or westerns into the picture. Maybe a little off the trail, but same path really, thanks LC an’ Loreen . . .
The myth of the lone cowboy is an extremely powerful American idea, especially for those of us who grew up weaned on TV and moviehouse Westerns. Annie and Ang, not to mention McMurtry and Ossana are all experts at this genre. To me Ennis is the very purest distillation of this concept as you've outlined here.
Two of my favorite Willie Nelson songs, easily found on YouTube with many wonderful videos:
My Hero's Have Always Been Cowboys
http://www.redux.com/shmeso/ntwZ3EgUfQldqtoU
and
Mama's Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Cowboys
A line from "Mama's" that hits me everytime, and I see Ennis - ridin’ his horse after FNIT, - sitting on the mountain just before the fight, - walkin’ away in Jack's mirror, - or during the FC:
They'll never stay home,
And they're always alone,
Even with someone they love;
. . .
Cowboys ain't easy to love
And their harder to hold,
And if you don't understand him
And he don't die young,
He'll probably just ride away.
No wonder Jack loved him . . .
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Thanks for all your kind words, loreen.
Perhaps now that I see Ennis more fully, I am ready to continue with the story, I have an outline planned for many years ahead. It was just stalled because I felt something was missing so I had no motivation to overcome all the stress and grief of late.
With loving fans and support like yours, how can I not continue the life of Ennis and his search for completeness? :ghug: :^^) :c) ^f^
You're welcome Lance! ^f^
I hope that developing of some discussions on the forum will help your inspiration to continue with your story, which will be something really special, as you are! :^^)
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Loreen and Jackster, thank you for evoking the myth of lone coweboy. It's especially revealing for someone like me, someone who grew up not understanding the whole background of cowboy stories. One thing is sure – never again my perception of cowboy stories will be the same as it was befor watching BBM. Thank you.
Dear Andrew. I can't find words to say how much your thought of Ennis's fear of love is close to my heart. The taste of Ennis's fear of love and being loved was one of my most intensive feeling when I was watching BBM first time and it has not changed since that. How could he not be afraid of something he never knew? How could he let himself for vulnarability and submission if he never experienced someone's deep love and care? Knowing all I know about his past and in some way feeling his love to Jack, I have to say that I not only love Ennis from all my heart. I also admire him because in spite of eveything he overcame a lot of his fears and constrains, not only in LF but also during 20 years of loving Jack and letting Jack to love him. Even if Ennis's ability to open to Jack's love was not perfect, IMO he did the significant progress in his journey into happy life.
IMO the fear of love and being loved is one the deepest fears, we have to face in our life.
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This thread's taken an real interesting turn here bringing cowboys and/or westerns into the picture. Maybe a little off the trail, but same path really, thanks LC an’ Loreen . . .
The myth of the lone cowboy is an extremely powerful American idea, especially for those of us who grew up weaned on TV and moviehouse Westerns. Annie and Ang, not to mention McMurtry and Ossana are all experts at this genre. To me Ennis is the very purest distillation of this concept as you've outlined here.
Two of my favorite Willie Nelson songs, easily found on YouTube with many wonderful videos:
My Hero's Have Always Been Cowboys
http://www.redux.com/shmeso/ntwZ3EgUfQldqtoU
and
Mama's Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Cowboys
A line from "Mama's" that hits me everytime, and I see Ennis - ridin’ his horse after FNIT, - sitting on the mountain just before the fight, - walkin’ away in Jack's mirror, - or during the FC:
They'll never stay home,
And they're always alone,
Even with someone they love;
. . .
Cowboys ain't easy to love
And their harder to hold,
And if you don't understand him
And he don't die young,
He'll probably just ride away.
No wonder Jack loved him . . .
Thanks, bud. I avoided that song Mamas for the very reason you mentioned with the quoted lyrics.
I appreciate the other song. It makes sense of Ennis, as you said, the pure distillation of the cowboy's essence. I found another version on youtube, by Waylon Jennings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31aETl1BESU
I really like it, and the paintings in the video went real well with the song. I am so glad you mentioned it.
Thanks again. Happy trails, bud. :c)
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Loreen and Jackster, thank you for evoking the myth of lone coweboy. It's especially revealing for someone like me, someone who grew up not understanding the whole background of cowboy stories. One thing is sure – never again my perception of cowboy stories will be the same as it was befor watching BBM. Thank you.
Dear Andrew. I can't find words to say how much your thought of Ennis's fear of love is close to my heart. The taste of Ennis's fear of love and being loved was one of my most intensive feeling when I was watching BBM first time and it has not changed since that. How could he not be afraid of something he never knew? How could he let himself for vulnarability and submission if he never experienced someone's deep love and care? Knowing all I know about his past and in some way feeling his love to Jack, I have to say that I not only love Ennis from all my heart. I also admire him because in spite of eveything he overcame a lot of his fears and constrains, not only in LF but also during 20 years of loving Jack and letting Jack to love him. Even if Ennis's ability to open to Jack's love was not perfect, IMO he did the significant progress in his journey into happy life.
IMO the fear of love and being loved is one the deepest fears, we have to face in our life.
:ghug: traveler :ghug: I think you described how a lot of us feel. That was the genius of Heath, to capture so much in a performance saying so few words...the power of his mumbled whispers is more powerful than the shouting soliloquy by others. He conveyed the strength and vulnerability at the same time, the self-reliant independent spirit and the lonely child yearning for friendship and acceptance at the same time. I was not surprised, but had an ah-ha moment when I found out Heath had a Ying/Yang tattoo. Heath saw both sides of the world, and loved them just the same. I am getting way off topic, and edging towards tears on this anniversary of Heath's birthday.
:ghug: Happy trails, traveller.
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Loreen and Jackster, thank you for evoking the myth of lone coweboy. It's especially revealing for someone like me, someone who grew up not understanding the whole background of cowboy stories. One thing is sure – never again my perception of cowboy stories will be the same as it was befor watching BBM. Thank you.
Dear Andrew. I can't find words to say how much your thought of Ennis's fear of love is close to my heart. The taste of Ennis's fear of love and being loved was one of my most intensive feeling when I was watching BBM first time and it has not changed since that. How could he not be afraid of something he never knew? How could he let himself for vulnarability and submission if he never experienced someone's deep love and care? Knowing all I know about his past and in some way feeling his love to Jack, I have to say that I not only love Ennis from all my heart. I also admire him because in spite of eveything he overcame a lot of his fears and constrains, not only in LF but also during 20 years of loving Jack and letting Jack to love him. Even if Ennis's ability to open to Jack's love was not perfect, IMO he did the significant progress in his journey into happy life.
IMO the fear of love and being loved is one the deepest fears, we have to face in our life.
Ennis's and Jack's unfortunate childhood was one of the first things I've sensed about them in the movie and as a mother I feel their empty childhood very deeply and very painfully. But Jack had his Ma, a person who really loved him dearly and who understood him. Ennis had a very strict father who obviously brought the worst fears in Ennis with his educational "methods". Ennis remembered his mother though, and it seems that she had loved him, but eventually Ennis became an orphan, and later - a person who went to herd sheep on Brokeback, coz there was no place for him in the society any more. He never found his place again, only some interstices where he half- existed.
I always believed that their empty childhood had a lots with their relationship - each was just what the other needed. All until that fight and coming down from the paradise. After that a lifetime struggle started and brought the tragedy.
If Ennis only knew how to accept as much as he was ready to give! But that was too much for our cowboy! :\'(
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:ghug: traveler :ghug: I think you described how a lot of us feel. That was the genius of Heath, to capture so much in a performance saying so few words...the power of his mumbled whispers is more powerful than the shouting soliloquy by others. He conveyed the strength and vulnerability at the same time, the self-reliant independent spirit and the lonely child yearning for friendship and acceptance at the same time. I was not surprised, but had an ah-ha moment when I found out Heath had a Ying/Yang tattoo. Heath saw both sides of the world, and loved them just the same. I am getting way off topic, and edging towards tears on this anniversary of Heath's birthday.
:ghug: Happy trails, traveller.
I am always impressed by the way you talk about Heath. Telling about Heath you make my love for him and for Ennis and also my understanding of them grow up. For you ^f^ from me.
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Ennis's and Jack's unfortunate childhood was one of the first things I've sensed about them in the movie and as a mother I feel their empty childhood very deeply and very painfully. But Jack had his Ma, a person who really loved him dearly and who understood him. Ennis had a very strict father who obviously brought the worst fears in Ennis with his educational "methods". Ennis remembered his mother though, and it seems that she had loved him, but eventually Ennis became an orphan, and later - a person who went to herd sheep on Brokeback, coz there was no place for him in the society any more. He never found his place again, only some interstices where he half- existed.
I always believed that their empty childhood had a lots with their relationship - each was just what the other needed. All until that fight and coming down from the paradise. After that a lifetime struggle started and brought the tragedy.
If Ennis only knew how to accept as much as he was ready to give! But that was too much for our cowboy! :\'(
Loreen, it's so beautiful and empathic what you said about Ennis. It's strange how we are moved reading someone's thoughts which express our feelings. It's always inspiring and provoking for further consideration. I am especialy touched by the last sentence of your post. I have never realized so clearly that in spite of his experiences, Ennis was still ready to give so much. I missed to appreciate that. In spite of the whole lonliness of his life, he was still ready to love (even if not perfectly but still love) :\'(
Thank you, Loreen ^f^
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[...]
I always believed that their empty childhood had a lots with their relationship - each was just what the other needed. All until that fight and coming down from the paradise. After that a lifetime struggle started and brought the tragedy.
If Ennis only knew how to accept as much as he was ready to give! But that was too much for our cowboy! :\'(
Loreen, it's so beautiful and empathic what you said about Ennis. It's strange how we are moved reading someone's thoughts which express our feelings. It's always inspiring and provoking for further consideration. I am especialy touched by the last sentence of your post. I have never realized so clearly that in spite of his experiences, Ennis was still ready to give so much. I missed to appreciate that. In spite of the whole lonliness of his life, he was still ready to love (even if not perfectly but still love) :\'(
Thank you, Loreen ^f^
^f^ loreen ^f^ traveller :clap:
I love what you both said here. Ennis was still yearning for love...as evident by his asking Alma Jr. "This Kurt, does he love you?" He understood what love is, once he was shown it in Jack's closet, the hope/joy/passion that kept him on a short leash for twenty years. Before Lightning Flats, Ennis was ready to love, to give at every opportunity, but didn't know how, no more than what he did on the mountain, being the cowboy for Jack. His emotions were all tied up in knots. Only after Lightning Flats, that his heart was opened, and filled with love that freed him to give emotionally. He was made perfect in Jack's closet, and in Jack's Ma's kitchen. Her love and compassion also showed Ennis that there is love in other places, beyond Jack, in family. :c) ^f^
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It's funny, how something old can be something new again.
I was just taking my long stroll in the sun today, when all of a sudden it struck me what this meant, fear of love. I didn't understand this thread all this time, but now I see it, and agree with most of what had been said.
Poor Ennis...his fear was not just his homophobia from his daddy, but also his fear of love for the lack of love from all 'em years.
That summer of '63 was the closest he was ever going to get to loving and being loved. Sitting there on the grassy knoll, thinking, thinking of the love, the love to be lost, wanting but afraid, yearning but feeling helpless.
That fight was all the anger and frustration released. And then for four years afterwards, the regret, the fear, the anger, the guilt, ... No wonder he was ecstatic seeing Jack again. That reunion was all the love coming back in one rushing moment.
And then finding the shirts after twenty years, after losing Jack, in the grief of forever losing the love of his life.
In a way, the story had to end that way. Ennis was not only homophobic, but also afraid of love, afraid of loving and being loved. Even if Jack were not there in the middle, his marriage with Alma was doomed. There was affection but not love. He would do anything for Alma and the girls, even moving to Riverton, but he wasn't loved and loving the way he was with Jack, totaling and completing, touching and merging of two souls. He could only love Jack the way it was, a few times a year in the middle of no where, or forever in the closet of his empty trailer, and every once in a while in his dreams wetting his pillows or his sheets. To love Jack more often than that, even if it were possible, meant a kind of vulnerability and submission to another, that was just too foreign for the always independent self-reliant cowboy. It was okay when they were two work buddies on the mountain, but out of it, down in civilization, even in Denver or San Francisco, Ennis would only be what he was with Cassie, always there but pulling away. Never committing.
Poor Ennis. I think I was holding back writing the rest of my fan fiction, the continuation, Return to Brokeback Mountain. I didn't think I had enough to write about the life of Ennis after losing Jack. It's funny, how I thought I knew Ennis, when I didn't know him that well at all. I don't if I do now. I guess I will have to watch the movie, read the short story, again and again.
I think this is very true, lance. In fact, I think that it was Ennis's fear of love that probably was more significant, although his homophobia was also an important factor. The fear to love wnet beyond homophobia, and it certainly manifested itself in his relationship with Alma and his own daughters.
The fight scene was certainly a gut reaction NOT to show how he truly felt for Jack. In a sense, gender wasn't the central factor for his "outburst."
The same can be said for the scene in the alley...
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The myth of the lone cowboy is an extremely powerful American idea, especially for those of us who grew up weaned on TV and moviehouse Westerns. Annie and Ang, not to mention McMurtry and Ossana are all experts at this genre. To me Ennis is the very purest distillation of this concept as you've outlined here.
Very true: the epitome of the strong silent type. But, in a sense, Ennis is a subversive realization of this tradition.
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Very true: the epitome of the strong silent type. But, in a sense, Ennis is a subversive realization of this tradition.
Interesting choice of word, tpe, subversive. What do you mean by that?
I always thought the word meant to convert from within, covertly, using sneaky methods. The dictionary's list of synonyms include: traitorous, treacherous, seditious, destructive.
I don't think Ennis was out to change the cowboy's way of life, but to extend it, enrich it. In a sense, I suppose you can say that Brokeback Mountain itself, the movie, was subversive of the iconic cowboy stereotype, Jack most of all. But the real subversion happened long ago, in the men's liberation movement, when the Marlboro man already gave way to the metro man, the sensitive urban man.
If anything, Heath's Ennis made the cowboy alive again, by injecting into the iconic stereotype a new element, a new angst that transcends the old strong silent type. The new cowboy is also sensitive, but suffers silently within, not out of sight like the cowboys of old, but visibly, in the little mannerisms that only Heath could make real.
Sorry, bud. Just can't see subversive in Ennis. Just got to agree to disagree with you, I guess. No hard feelings. :c)
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Hello lance. It is subversive in that it goes beyond the tradition of the strong and silent type and reveals that humanity and the frailty that marks such characters in real life.
It is subversive in that it shows that the tradition is based on an outwardly strong image but one that suffers inwardly from a deep sense of brokenness -- and sometimes, alienation.
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Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent ;)).
This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.
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Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent ;)).
This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.
hmmm very interesting :s)
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Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent ;)).
This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.
I agree with this!
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Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent ;)).
This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.
Wow! :s) This thread is taking on an interesting twist. Was the fear of love, an innate part of the iconic cowboy, which, I think we all agree, Ennis was the epitome? Is it right to call it fear of love, if it is in fact, a part of the solitary character of the persona. :s)
Is it subversive for Ennis to show the vulnerable angst, the human frailty suffering from the loneliness of love denied, love lost?
Is the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, the innate conflict that Ennis was destined to struggle with, to hold on to the iconic cowboy persona, or to hold on to the love of his life? Can a cowboy be in love, or as the song says,
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.
Thanks, jackster. Food for thought.
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Thomas – I see where you can picture Ennis as somewhat subversive to the usual “popular” cowboy image, a' la John Wayne an’ all. But I feel that many of the historical American cowboy traits that have been portrayed, sung about, written about, etc. for over a hundred years now, part of the essence of these characters is a deep seated disconnectedness from the real world of modern man and modern life. Men out of place, out of time. Maybe this is what you mean by their brokenness. Loners and introverts, comfortable with themselves (and their horse), but not so comfortable with others, except possibly other cowboys (in or out of the tent ;)).
This is where I see Ennis fitting in, into this genre of social outsiders. Not outcasts or outlaws, but men who have chosen a different path for reasons they themselves possibly do not understand. JMHO.
They’ll never stay home,
and they’re always alone,
even with someone they love.
This is true. But it is also understandable that as the cowboy way of life disappeared throughout the 20th century (except in a few isolated pockets) there was a strong tendency to idealize the life in popular and folk culture. Even the tinge of loneliness that marked several of these efforts were strongly stylized and even sentimental in certain well known cases. Hollywood did not really invent this -- they simply took on the sentiment of the day. And of course, the Marlboro Man is also a rection to this...
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I have been thinking about your subversion concept, tpe, and here is what I think.
In a sense, Jack and Ennis are the ying and yang of the cowboy stereotype: Jack, the rodeo cowboy who thrives in the limelight, who is the life of the party, the best salesman, and Ennis, the quiet devoted hard working solitary figure who knows what to do and how to do all things around the ranch, fixing the engine, pitching the tent, shooting the elk, cooking and protecting the sheep. That's what makes them perfect together, not competing with each other, but respectful of the other.
To me, Brokeback Mountain and Jack are definitely subversive of the iconic cowboy, but Ennis was the iconic cowboy that was subverted. He was the solitary figure content with nothing and beans. Jack was the rodeo cowboy more interested in belt buckles than doing the work around the camp. Jack was the one who wanted more than a few high attitude f@#$ks a few times a year. Jack was the one whose love kept their relationship going for twenty years. As far as Ennis was concerned, they could have left it on Brokeback that summer, and he would've been just fine with Alma and the girls...not passionately happy pawing the white from the moon, perhaps, but fine nonetheless. It was because of Jack, that he was like that, with nothing, a nobody without him, brooding in the bar alone, drinking beer after beer, like any iconic cowboy would. That's what the short story led to, the lonely Ennis living in an empty run down trailer.
I think it was Heath's genius to transform that miserable figure from the short story to the radiant symbol of an iconic cowboy made human, extending the strength and silence to embrace the frailty and sentiments of a man capable of love. So the answer to my earlier question, whether fear of love is innate to the iconic cowboy, is affirmative, but Heath's genius changed that, and made it possible to be a solitary self-reliant cowboy, with feelings. That's why Brokeback Mountain resonates with so many, and why Heath deserved an Academy Award for his performance. It was ground-breaking not because of the gay issue, but because of the fundamental American mystique of the cowboy and love. The fearlessness of Heath drove out the fear of love in the cowboy.
Heath turned a subverted cowboy into a new hero, for me.
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Whew! You’ve laid it out pretty damn well here Andrew. Fantastic post. Ain’t got much more to add, don’t need much more said. Your picture of Heath and what he brought to the table is spot on in my book. He showed us that even these lonely old bachelor cowboys can have a spark in their heart, enough to ignite a bonfire, when a star falls from the sky and lights up their kindling wood. Jack was that star for Ennis, and they both knew it, eventually.
Great work cowboy.
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Whew! You’ve laid it out pretty damn well here Andrew. Fantastic post. Ain’t got much more to add, don’t need much more said. Your picture of Heath and what he brought to the table is spot on in my book. He showed us that even these lonely old bachelor cowboys can have a spark in their heart, enough to ignite a bonfire, when a star falls from the sky and lights up their kindling wood. Jack was that star for Ennis, and they both knew it, eventually.
Great work cowboy.
:t) bud. I owe that to you. I wouldn't be thinking about it otherwise.
I like the way you put that, so for sure there is a lot more to be said. It's all beautiful, said in our own ways.
May we all catch our falling star in our own time. :c) :cr)
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I have been thinking about your subversion concept, tpe, and here is what I think.
In a sense, Jack and Ennis are the ying and yang of the cowboy stereotype: Jack, the rodeo cowboy who thrives in the limelight, who is the life of the party, the best salesman, and Ennis, the quiet devoted hard working solitary figure who knows what to do and how to do all things around the ranch, fixing the engine, pitching the tent, shooting the elk, cooking and protecting the sheep. That's what makes them perfect together, not competing with each other, but respectful of the other.
To me, Brokeback Mountain and Jack are definitely subversive of the iconic cowboy, but Ennis was the iconic cowboy that was subverted. He was the solitary figure content with nothing and beans. Jack was the rodeo cowboy more interested in belt buckles than doing the work around the camp. Jack was the one who wanted more than a few high attitude f@#$ks a few times a year. Jack was the one whose love kept their relationship going for twenty years. As far as Ennis was concerned, they could have left it on Brokeback that summer, and he would've been just fine with Alma and the girls...not passionately happy pawing the white from the moon, perhaps, but fine nonetheless. It was because of Jack, that he was like that, with nothing, a nobody without him, brooding in the bar alone, drinking beer after beer, like any iconic cowboy would. That's what the short story led to, the lonely Ennis living in an empty run down trailer.
I think it was Heath's genius to transform that miserable figure from the short story to the radiant symbol of an iconic cowboy made human, extending the strength and silence to embrace the frailty and sentiments of a man capable of love. So the answer to my earlier question, whether fear of love is innate to the iconic cowboy, is affirmative, but Heath's genius changed that, and made it possible to be a solitary self-reliant cowboy, with feelings. That's why Brokeback Mountain resonates with so many, and why Heath deserved an Academy Award for his performance. It was ground-breaking not because of the gay issue, but because of the fundamental American mystique of the cowboy and love. The fearlessness of Heath drove out the fear of love in the cowboy.
Heath turned a subverted cowboy into a new hero, for me.
Thanks lance. :)
I think that both characters (Ennis and Jack) to a large extent subverted the popular image of a cowboy as stoic and cool, masculine and very unemotional. We see this very much in the character of Ennis, where the stoic facade hides the boiling emotions underneath. And Jack is much too volatile, "feminine"/"soft", and sympathetic/empathetic to even fit the image of the stoic strong silent type...
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Thanks lance. :)
I think that both characters (Ennis and Jack) to a large extent subverted the popular image of a cowboy as stoic and cool, masculine and very unemotional. We see this very much in the character of Ennis, where the stoic facade hides the boiling emotions underneath. And Jack is much too volatile, "feminine"/"soft", and sympathetic/empathetic to even fit the image of the stoic strong silent type...
;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"? %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?
Sorry, it just struck me as funny/ironic. But yes, Jack is more sympathetic/empathetic, like with little dogs and little lambs and little children (like Bobby), and also as a salesman. Great salesmen have to be empathetic to customer needs and wants without them verbalizing them. That's why Jack was the best combine salesman they got.
Jack was more the urban cowboy, while Ennis was the iconic cowboy. Just my two cents worth.
We can agree to disagree on the finer point of who was doing subverting (Jack) and who was the subverted (Ennis). In a sense, this is like the top/bottom discussion. We don't have to agree on it. Art allows personal interpretation up to a point, which enriches it, rather than reduces it.
Thanks for the subversion concept in any case.
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;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"? %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?
Jesus!! (t) (t) I thought the same when I read Thomas post!!! ;D ;D
Sorry Thomas, but I so completely disagree with you this time, babe. Jack was very emotional and sure he was a sweet guy when young, but Jack was a VERY strong man to stand all that pain during those 20 years and that hell that was his childhood.....Also he was very brave!! A bull rider, the guy who was not scared of tire irons like Ennis was, the guy who never cried in front of Ennis or was "weak" and romantic with him. Jack was not soft, just tender and understanding and he comforted Ennis when Ennis was the "soft" emotional one in the confrontation scene. Jack was mad and furious during that scene, but not soft, not even once; remember that he didn't even blink when Ennis told him that all the things Jack did could get him killed.....
That's about soft....About feminine.....THOMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (t) (t) (t) Why did you said that? I just can't believe it!! Jack feminine? He was not any of that at 19, but sure he was all the opposite to feminine when he was 39!!! He looked/was manly and talked, walked and acted all man and all cowboy!!!!
There are million of straight men than are like Jack, and millions of straight women that are like Ennis and act like a stoic cowboy. Not fair to call feminine to someone who is not afraid to show what they are feeling, someone who is not ashamed of being in love.
Thomas....you deserve a spanking for this!!! ;D ;D :^^)
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Thanks lance. :)
I think that both characters (Ennis and Jack) to a large extent subverted the popular image of a cowboy as stoic and cool, masculine and very unemotional. We see this very much in the character of Ennis, where the stoic facade hides the boiling emotions underneath. And Jack is much too volatile, "feminine"/"soft", and sympathetic/empathetic to even fit the image of the stoic strong silent type...
;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"? %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?
I see that you put "feminine" and "soft" in the quotation marks, so I suppose that you mean - >>regarded as "feminine"/"soft"<<.
Both Ennis and Jack really have a feminine and a masculine side: Ennis is faithful (feminine), Jack is promiscuous (masculine), Ennis doesn't want to settle down with him (masculine), Jack wants home for 2 of them (feminine), Jack opposes LD and took the leading man role in the house (masculine), Ennis romantically waits for his only love - Jack (feminine), Jack always takes initiative (masculine), and Ennis follows (feminine), Jack drives 14 hours one way (masculine) and the princess Ennis is waiting in his home (feminine)....
Jack is also soft, but only in the positive meaning of that word - understanding, benevolent, comforting, caring. But his softness is not always good - it cost him maybe even the "sweet life", coz he never showed a firm stand, a blackmailing attitude towards Ennis and his fears, to make him accept the offer for the common life. Still it is a very appealing part of his nature. <^( <^( <^( His opened expression of feelings is also soft and more feminine, but I don't take that as a label or as something negative.
So I think that "feminine"/"soft" is not a bad thing to say about Jack, coz part of his characteristics can really imply this estimation, (as well as Ennis's).
Lance, many women have a mustache and a big hat.... ::) ... and I wouldn't connect that with anything.... ;) ;D
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... the guy who was not scared of tire irons like Ennis was....
Aw, don't you think that's being a little harsh on Ennis? Jack and Ennis each suffered different kinds of childhood trauma. Jack wasn't taken out to an irrigation ditch at the age of nine to see the mutilated and decomposing body of a gay man who had been beaten by a tire iron. So, naturally he wouldn't have the same issues with tire irons as Ennis would. Besides, I think Ennis's issues were much more complex than simply being "scared" of tire irons. He wasn't simply some coward afraid of being beaten up. His fears were more internal - he had been taught that being "queer" meant that he was "bad" and that was something to be ashamed of and so he could not accept that about himself. Being raised the way he was and seeing the things he saw, that's completely understandable.
I agree that Jack was strong and brave and tough. But I also think that point can be made without putting Ennis down.
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Boy o boy, what Pandora's box did we open up here? Firstly, loreen, you misunderstood my sentence about mustache, etc. It was rhetorical, pointing out to tpe the irony of the foremost Jack loving fan calling Jack too soft/feminine to be the iconic cowboy. I put those words in quotes, to emphasize that I was quoting tpe, in his usage, not of my own meaning or intention. You can read Tammy's post, who understood, and reacted as I did, but said so more beautifully and, :s) shall we say, emotionally?
I won't dwell on the stereotypical ideas of masculine and feminine, although one can argue the archetype of male and female in the collective consciousness put cowboys, especially the iconic strong silent stoic cowboys in the extreme end of the masculine spectrum, while the rodeo cowboys, with flair and show, drawing attention to themselves, and Jack's exhibiting empathy and tenderness in SNIT, after the bear incident, would put him closer to the feminine end, but I wouldn't move him much further than a tiny bit.
Returning to the topic of fear of love and the iconic cowboy, and tpe's idea of subversion, it occurred to me that if Ennis is the embodiment, the epitome of the iconic cowboy, then it is hardly likely that he was also subverting the iconic cowboy, or himself.
I looked up the word "subvert" in order to be certain that I understood it correctly:
1. to overthrow (something established or existing).
2. to cause the downfall, ruin, or destruction of.
3. to undermine the principles of; corrupt.
Origin: 1325–75; ME subverten < L subvertere to overthrow, equiv. to sub- sub- + vertere to turn
Related forms: sub⋅vert⋅er, noun
Synonyms: 1. upset, disrupt, undermine, overturn, sabotage.
I don't think Ennis overthrew the concept of the iconic cowboy, but rather, extended it to change the world's understanding of the icon. Instead of the romantic idealized cowboy without feelings, Ennis, as Heath portrayed him, took on the human dimensions, and made real with feelings and emotions. This "hidden" dimension was not new, but always there, but repressed and/or suppressed by the cowboy and/or society.
As Annie Proulx said herself concerning the origin of the Brokeback Mountain story, she was inspired by observing these old bachelor cowboys in a rural western bar, looking at the young cowboys playing pool. Then there are those real life stories from letters of people to Annie Proulx after they watched Brokeback Mountain, and told her that they were watching themselves on the screen, of their own cowboy experiences, or someone they knew.
I agree with you that Brokeback Mountain and Jack subverted the old idea of the iconic cowboy, but because Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, I rather think that he simply showed us the hidden dimension that we didn't know about. The old iconic cowboy was still true, but incomplete with a hidden side, the side that Heath in his genius showed to us, through Ennis.
And to bring it right back to fear of love, it was not only the homophobia that Ennis was hiding, it was also his fear of love and being loved that he hid all 'em years, ever since that first time in SNIT when he loved being held by Jack, when he loved holding Jack, when he sat in front of the fire, fighting the desire to experience love with his fear of love. Out there on the mountain in the middle of nowhere, his desire won, but sooner or later, his fear returns.
Only at the end, when it was too late, when there was no more need to fear, when his one true love was forever denied him, that he could embrace the love that he feared. Ennis could love only in the dreams, in memories, without the real love of his life to be there. Even sharing the love that he still had, with Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr, it was a love at a distance, not sharing it in his trailer, up close and personal. That is still the iconic cowboy, riding off into the sunset alone, into the distance.
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Aw, don't you think that's being a little harsh on Ennis? Jack and Ennis each suffered different kinds of childhood trauma. Jack wasn't taken out to an irrigation ditch at the age of nine to see the mutilated and decomposing body of a gay man who had been beaten by a tire iron. So, naturally he wouldn't have the same issues with tire irons as Ennis would. Besides, I think Ennis's issues were much more complex than simply being "scared" of tire irons. He wasn't simply some coward afraid of being beaten up. His fears were more internal - he had been taught that being "queer" meant that he was "bad" and that was something to be ashamed of and so he could not accept that about himself. Being raised the way he was and seeing the things he saw, that's completely understandable.
I agree that Jack was strong and brave and tough. But I also think that point can be made without putting Ennis down.
Ennis lover, ;D :ghug:!
I have to admit that as much as I try - I will never be able to completely understand Ennis. I don't think that Tammy was putting him down - she just wanted to point out how brave Jack was! And he WAS brave! ^-^
And Ennis showed a certain cowardice... weather we want to admit that or not. No one can oppose though the theory of his childhood trauma! :( That is so terrible thing for a young boy to go through and certainly left a scar in his mind and soul.
^f^
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Boy o boy, what Pandora's box did we open up here? Firstly, loreen, you misunderstood my sentence about mustache, etc. It was rhetorical, pointing out to tpe the irony of the foremost Jack loving fan calling Jack too soft/feminine to be the iconic cowboy. I put those words in quotes, to emphasize that I was quoting tpe, in his usage, not of my own meaning or intention.
I think that I understood... ::)
Returning to the topic of fear of love and the iconic cowboy, and tpe's idea of subversion, it occurred to me that if Ennis is the embodiment, the epitome of the iconic cowboy, then it is hardly likely that he was also subverting the iconic cowboy, or himself.
***
I don't think Ennis overthrew the concept of the iconic cowboy, but rather, extended it to change the world's understanding of the icon. Instead of the romantic idealized cowboy without feelings, Ennis, as Heath portrayed him, took on the human dimensions, and made real with feelings and emotions. This "hidden" dimension was not new, but always there, but repressed and/or suppressed by the cowboy and/or society.
As Annie Proulx said herself concerning the origin of the Brokeback Mountain story, she was inspired by observing these old bachelor cowboys in a rural western bar, looking at the young cowboys playing pool. Then there are those real life stories from letters of people to Annie Proulx after they watched Brokeback Mountain, and told her that they were watching themselves on the screen, of their own cowboy experiences, or someone they knew.
I agree with you that Brokeback Mountain and Jack subverted the old idea of the iconic cowboy, but because Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, I rather think that he simply showed us the hidden dimension that we didn't know about. The old iconic cowboy was still true, but incomplete with a hidden side, the side that Heath in his genius showed to us, through Ennis.
And to bring it right back to fear of love, it was not only the homophobia that Ennis was hiding, it was also his fear of love and being loved that he hid all 'em years, ever since that first time in SNIT when he loved being held by Jack, when he loved holding Jack, when he sat in front of the fire, fighting the desire to experience love with his fear of love. Out there on the mountain in the middle of nowhere, his desire won, but sooner or later, his fear returns.
Only at the end, when it was too late, when there was no more need to fear, when his one true love was forever denied him, that he could embrace the love that he feared. Ennis could love only in the dreams, in memories, without the real love of his life to be there. Even sharing the love that he still had, with Jack's Ma, and with Alma Jr, it was a love at a distance, not sharing it in his trailer, up close and personal. That is still the iconic cowboy, riding off into the sunset alone, into the distance.
I think that this is the truth - we had one cemented idea on the iconic cowboy, but Ennis just showed us that there was much more to it. And Jack was the one who made him open and who provoke that in the iconic cowboy. Makes sense! :s)
The bold part is lovely! :)
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Boy o boy, what Pandora's box did we open up here? . . .
Masculine/Feminine – Ennis/Jack – oh boy, if that ain't the third rail of all Brokeback discussions don't know whut is. Ain't goin’ there, ain't gonna touch it. Certain death. We're all differn’t, and it's all good.
O0
I got a mustache, it grows everyday, but I cut it off. Must be some sort of masochist, huh? We see Jack shaving his off in the opening scene, (right after his first eyefull of Ennis, he got the hot’s?) then later Ennis is shaving his off in front a’ Jack just before takin’ off his pants. Some hidden language here about being open to homo love? Ennis never does let his grow in, Jack finally does let his. What's it all mean, huh? Wanna’ start sumthin?
:s)
And to bring it right back to fear of love, it was not only the homophobia that Ennis was hiding, it was also his fear of love and being loved that he hid all 'em years,
Anyway, yup, fear of love. Seems as you say ol’ pal, it was Ennis's “fear of love and being loved” that was the root of the problem IMHO. I'd only add – Ennis's fear of, or maybe his inability to understand and recognise, his own deep love for Jack.
Love is a force of nature. Man against nature. Man in nature. Cowboys. ???
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Masculine/Feminine – Ennis/Jack – oh boy, if that ain't the third rail of all Brokeback discussions don't know whut is. Ain't goin’ there, ain't gonna touch it. Certain death. We're all differn’t, and it's all good.
O0
I got a mustache, it grows everyday, but I cut it off. Must be some sort of masochist, huh? We see Jack shaving his off in the opening scene, (right after his first eyefull of Ennis, he got the hot’s?) then later Ennis is shaving his off in front a’ Jack just before takin’ off his pants. Some hidden language here about being open to homo love? Ennis never does let his grow in, Jack finally does let his. What's it all mean, huh? Wanna’ start sumthin?
:s)
;D
Anyway, yup, fear of love. Seems as you say ol’ pal, it was Ennis's “fear of love and being loved” that was the root of the problem IMHO. I'd only add – Ennis's fear of, or maybe his inability to understand and recognise, his own deep love for Jack.
Love is a force of nature. Man against nature. Man in nature. Cowboys. ???
Good as always jackster! O0
To add: maybe it was also a fear of the belonging to someone, a fear to belonging to somewhere... a solitary couldn't accept that. Too near, too confusing, too caged... just too much!
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Ennis lover, ;D :ghug:!
I have to admit that as much as I try - I will never be able to completely understand Ennis. I don't think that Tammy was putting him down - she just wanted to point out how brave Jack was! And he WAS brave! ^-^
And Ennis showed a certain cowardice... weather we want to admit that or not. No one can oppose though the theory of his childhood trauma! :( That is so terrible thing for a young boy to go through and certainly left a scar in his mind and soul.
^f^
??? I'm confused. Did I say something funny? Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"? I'm not either. I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl." I understand them both and I sympathize with them both. I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no? I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters.
I already said I thought Jack was brave. Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that? Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis? Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition? I don't understand that.
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;D you? tpe? the foremost Jack lover is calling Jack too "feminine/soft"? %&) (t) With the mustache and big hat, and big coat..?
Sorry, it just struck me as funny/ironic. But yes, Jack is more sympathetic/empathetic, like with little dogs and little lambs and little children (like Bobby), and also as a salesman. Great salesmen have to be empathetic to customer needs and wants without them verbalizing them. That's why Jack was the best combine salesman they got.
Jack was more the urban cowboy, while Ennis was the iconic cowboy. Just my two cents worth.
We can agree to disagree on the finer point of who was doing subverting (Jack) and who was the subverted (Ennis). In a sense, this is like the top/bottom discussion. We don't have to agree on it. Art allows personal interpretation up to a point, which enriches it, rather than reduces it.
Thanks for the subversion concept in any case.
Perhaps those were not the right words to use. :) What I had in mind was something more about yin/yang. Even their favored colors suggest such a comparison. I imagine Jack's colors as akin to the moon and the night. It is a softer and more emotive element that I am noting here... :)
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Jesus!! (t) (t) I thought the same when I read Thomas post!!! ;D ;D
Sorry Thomas, but I so completely disagree with you this time, babe. Jack was very emotional and sure he was a sweet guy when young, but Jack was a VERY strong man to stand all that pain during those 20 years and that hell that was his childhood.....Also he was very brave!! A bull rider, the guy who was not scared of tire irons like Ennis was, the guy who never cried in front of Ennis or was "weak" and romantic with him. Jack was not soft, just tender and understanding and he comforted Ennis when Ennis was the "soft" emotional one in the confrontation scene. Jack was mad and furious during that scene, but not soft, not even once; remember that he didn't even blink when Ennis told him that all the things Jack did could get him killed.....
That's about soft....About feminine.....THOMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (t) (t) (t) Why did you said that? I just can't believe it!! Jack feminine? He was not any of that at 19, but sure he was all the opposite to feminine when he was 39!!! He looked/was manly and talked, walked and acted all man and all cowboy!!!!
There are million of straight men than are like Jack, and millions of straight women that are like Ennis and act like a stoic cowboy. Not fair to call feminine to someone who is not afraid to show what they are feeling, someone who is not ashamed of being in love.
Thomas....you deserve a spanking for this!!! ;D ;D :^^)
Again, I see that my choice of words was not good, as it caused total confusion! ;D Note that I put "feminine" in quotes here. It doesn't suggest that Jack is a pansy. It suggest that he embodies the softer element in yin/yang. But even this would probably cause more confusion, so that I will say it now that what I want to highlight here is Jack's soft/yielding qualities that make him so empathetic and sympathetic.
It should not be understood in a sexual/sexist POV.
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I see that you put "feminine" and "soft" in the quotation marks, so I suppose that you mean - >>regarded as "feminine"/"soft"<<.
Exactly. ;)
Both Ennis and Jack really have a feminine and a masculine side: Ennis is faithful (feminine), Jack is promiscuous (masculine), Ennis doesn't want to settle down with him (masculine), Jack wants home for 2 of them (feminine), Jack opposes LD and took the leading man role in the house (masculine), Ennis romantically waits for his only love - Jack (feminine), Jack always takes initiative (masculine), and Ennis follows (feminine), Jack drives 14 hours one way (masculine) and the princess Ennis is waiting in his home (feminine)....
Jack is also soft, but only in the positive meaning of that word - understanding, benevolent, comforting, caring. But his softness is not always good - it cost him maybe even the "sweet life", coz he never showed a firm stand, a blackmailing attitude towards Ennis and his fears, to make him accept the offer for the common life. Still it is a very appealing part of his nature. <^( <^( <^( His opened expression of feelings is also soft and more feminine, but I don't take that as a label or as something negative.
So I think that "feminine"/"soft" is not a bad thing to say about Jack, coz part of his characteristics can really imply this estimation, (as well as Ennis's).
Very good points here. Yes, one certainly can't generalize regarding this. You are right to note that both DO EMBODY different aspects, and not just one.
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Ennis lover, ;D :ghug:!
I have to admit that as much as I try - I will never be able to completely understand Ennis. I don't think that Tammy was putting him down - she just wanted to point out how brave Jack was! And he WAS brave! ^-^
And Ennis showed a certain cowardice... weather we want to admit that or not. No one can oppose though the theory of his childhood trauma! :( That is so terrible thing for a young boy to go through and certainly left a scar in his mind and soul.
^f^
??? I'm confused. Did I say something funny? Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"? I'm not either. I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl." I understand them both and I sympathize with them both. I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no? I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters.
I already said I thought Jack was brave. Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that? Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis? Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition? I don't understand that.
Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. But to be sure, shellyd points out rightly that we don't necessarily have to be for one or the other specifically.
On the subject of the "fear of love", it is certanly something that we see embodied in Ennis in the scene under consideration. My original point was that Jack's empathetic or "soft" qualities allowed him to reach out to Ennis at that critical moment. I think Ennis understood this, but didn't know how to respond, and his violent reaction speaks of his confusion, and not just his deep fears.
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??? I'm confused. Did I say something funny? Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"? I'm not either. I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl." I understand them both and I sympathize with them both. I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no? I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters.
I already said I thought Jack was brave. Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that? Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis? Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition? I don't understand that.
It was more cute than funny :)!
It is my opinion that Ennis was a coward in a certain situations and up to a level, but to remember Jack's fear when it comes to Ennis' rejection, IMO is also a form of cowardice.
Anyway, I agree that we're not supposed to confront two of them, but we can compare them, coz I believe that even some of us love e.g. Jack more - than Ennis is also in our heart as deep as it was in Jack's heart. We can not love Jack without Ennis and vice versa. They were so opposite to each other, but at the same time so compatible, that we are trying to find that magic formula that kept them together for so long time.
Am I too OT?? ::)
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;D ;D ;D
It is impossible to cook a lunch and to post a reply! Until I finished - tpe was all over the thread! ;D
Now I have to check your posts again! >:(
;)
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;D ;D ;D
It is impossible to cook a lunch and to post a reply! Until I finished - tpe was all over the thread! ;D
Now I have to check your posts again! >:(
;)
OT: that's OK. You can respond in your own time... :)
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Aw, don't you think that's being a little harsh on Ennis? Jack and Ennis each suffered different kinds of childhood trauma. Jack wasn't taken out to an irrigation ditch at the age of nine to see the mutilated and decomposing body of a gay man who had been beaten by a tire iron. So, naturally he wouldn't have the same issues with tire irons as Ennis would. Besides, I think Ennis's issues were much more complex than simply being "scared" of tire irons. He wasn't simply some coward afraid of being beaten up. His fears were more internal - he had been taught that being "queer" meant that he was "bad" and that was something to be ashamed of and so he could not accept that about himself. Being raised the way he was and seeing the things he saw, that's completely understandable.
I agree that Jack was strong and brave and tough. But I also think that point can be made without putting Ennis down.
??? I'm confused. Did I say something funny? Why is there the assumption that everyone has to be either "an Ennis girl" or "a Jack girl"? I'm not either. I'm "an Ennis and Jack girl." I understand them both and I sympathize with them both. I don't think it is a "fact" that Ennis showed cowardice - that's only an opinion, no? I think it's a mistake to label either Jack or Ennis so simply because they are complex characters.
I already said I thought Jack was brave. Why is it necessary to bring up Ennis's supposed "cowardice" in order to support that? Can't you just make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis? Why is there this seeming need to pit them against each in some kind of competition? I don't understand that.
Jesus, where did you get I was putting Ennis down? I love both of our boys and I am very fierce and protective about them. People here know me enough to know that I’ve NEVER said a bad word about Ennis or about Jack, and I tent to get wild when someone says that one of our boys is better than the other. Poor Loreen here knows what was my reaction when she said that Ennis suffered more than Jack (sorry Loreen, babe :^^) ), because I think about our boys with the same respect and admiration and DEVOTION.
My intention was not to say that Jack was brave by saying that Ennis was not. But I needed to make a comparison there because my fellows brokies were “comparing” Jack “feminine” side to Ennis manly side. So yeah, a comparison was needed. I tried to show that if Jack being caring and understanding means that he’s “feminine”, then Ennis being afraid of tire irons means that he’s feminine too. I was not saying that Ennis was a coward, I was not saying that Jack was braver. I was trying to say that they both were strong and real men, but also that they both had fears, weak points and a softer side. I was just putting an example by comparing two sides of the SAME coin: if Jack was soft because he begged Ennis to live with him or because he was more emotional and chatty type than Ennis, then Ennis was soft too because he was afraid of things that Jack was not. That’s all. I was trying to said that it’s ok that our boys had a softer side and it didn’t mean that they were feminine. I didn’t say anything bad about Ennis, didn’t try to. Only tried to show that our two boys have a more tender side and a “cowboy macho” side and that both were different and that just like we respect Ennis fears we have to respect Jack’s emotional side. I was asking for identical respect and for objectivity and not trying to put Ennis down. I didn’t say that Ennis was afraid of tire irons in a harsh pejorative way. I mean, I was not judgging him, and if you read my post again you’ll see I didn’t say that being afraid of tire irons was something bad or weak or horrible or wrong. I was just stating an objective fact, a reality: Ennis was afraid of tire irons, the same way that it’s a fact that Jack wanted to live with Ennis or that he had sex with other men. I was not saying what was right or wrong. I was just trying to show that both our boys personalities were not black or white but all the colors in between.
I’ve NEVER pit or tried to pit them against each other in some kind of competition, not here, not at LJ, not any forum, and I ask you, please, to not say that about me, because I’ve had very passionate words with fellows brokies just because I can’t stand people who put our boys in a kinda competition. And yeah, I couldn’t make the point that Jack was brave without comparing him to Ennis: 1. because of what I said above. 2. because we are discussing about both men, Ennis and Jack, we are talking about them both, so I needed to talk about both, and Thomas was comparing Jack’s feminine side and Ennis manly side, so I needed Ennis there too to make the comparison the other way around, to show that they both had two sides, soft and strong, just like every human being. 3. because maybe I can’t express myself like I wish, or maybe because I don’t speak English and I have not a way with words, so I couldn’t find a better way to say what I was trying to say.
I am truly sorry if I said something that offended you. ^f^ But you also was unfair saying I was harsh on Ennis. Please, go and read other threads and then come back and re read my post. I am sure you won’t think anymore that I was harsh, the way I talk about both our boys, my boys. You write about what I meant, without knowing if I love Ennis or not, without knowing what I was thinking or feeling, without knowing if maybe I can’t write things right because I don’t speak English. You just judged me...funny because you were asking not to judge Ennis and you did the same with me.
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goodness gracious (t) I knew a Pandora's box got opened, but a whole page worth of posts in half a day. %&) There's no reins on this one.
Firstly, no worries, loreen, it's easy to jump to conclusion in the heat of the moment reading something so near and dear to us, and my rhetorical tendencies don't help none.
Secondly, Tammy baby :^^) you didn't call Ennis a coward, you simply say Jack wasn't afraid of the tire iron, the symbol of social oppression, and true enough Ennis internalized that oppression into homophobia, in fact, perhaps because it resonates so much with his own innate fear of love.
And, shellyd #$# to the discussion. Feel free to jump in, and please don't take offense or too personal our discussion. We are all friends discussing what we love.
tpe, :ghug: :^^) you started all this ^f^ ;D I like the ying/yang comparison because it's true enough, I think. I understood what you meant, in terms of "more feminine than Ennis" but even that is unsatisfactory, as you said, the word "feminine" simple carries so much connotation in our deep seated prejudice of what a man and woman should be. In a sense, this relates to our preconception of the iconic cowboy's embodiment of masculinity without any feminine traits, hence the supposedly lack of feelings and emotions and love, or at least feeling emotions with a masculine twang. I like the sun/moon metaphor, but Ennis is also a receiver reflecting the love that Jack threw out at him from the beginning, so I can't say Jack is the moon, either. All in all, I'd say the two are like two shirts fitting one inside the other. They both have an outside and an inside, and they both can be the top/bottom...but I won't go there. ::) Just saying, it's all.
Last but not least, Jackster, bud. ^f^
[...] :s)
Anyway, yup, fear of love. Seems as you say ol’ pal, it was Ennis's “fear of love and being loved” that was the root of the problem IMHO. I'd only add – Ennis's fear of, or maybe his inability to understand and recognise, his own deep love for Jack.
Love is a force of nature. Man against nature. Man in nature. Cowboys. ???
Love that red part. Love. Cowboys. Nature. <^(
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Good grief. I guess I made a mistake in posting, but I'll try to make amends and explain and then I'm going to back out slowly and carefully.
Tammy, I thought my post was polite, direct and civil. I never personally attacked you or anyone else. All I said was that I thought pointing out that Ennis was "scared of tire irons" was a "little harsh" and I still do because the comparison doesn't make sense to me no matter how you've explained it, and as I tried to explain in my original post - I don't think that the "tire irons" themselves were Ennis's real fear and I know that's not the common perception, but it's mine. It's like comparing apples to oranges to say that Jack didn't have a fear of tire irons. And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that it's necessary to make comparisons between them when trying to "defend" one or the other in any case. I didn't think your post in defense of Jack's toughness and bravery, etc. was enhanced at all by mentioning Ennis and the tire irons. That's my opinion and I don't think I was rude in expressing it. I'm very sorry you felt personally attacked. That is never my intention. Saying that I thought it was "a little harsh" is NOT the same as I saying I don't believe you love Ennis. You didn't say anything to offend me - and I'm not sure where you got that impression from my post. I didn't say anything about being personally offended - I thought I was making a pretty objective statement about Ennis and the source of his trauma and resulting issues and how both Jack and Ennis are very complex. That's not the same as being personally offended.
I also think you're confusing my response to your post and my response to Loreen's post. You quoted both of my responses and replied to both. I never said that you called a Ennis a coward or that you pitted them against each other. But Loreen did indeed call Ennis a coward and I did respond to HER post. She also made the assumption, I guess based on her own feelings or maybe on a general tendency that she's seen, that I favored one character over the other. I don't. I know a lot of people do and that's fine, it's a visceral reaction and there's nothing wrong with that.
Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here. But to be sure, shellyd points out rightly that we don't necessarily have to be for one or the other specifically.
Thank you for understanding this. I know it's very common for people to point out that they are "a Jack girl" or an "Ennis girl" (or Jack boy or Ennis boy), and as I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But I do think that when someone is more emotionally invested in one character or the other or identifies more strongly with one character or another, that they might not be as objective as they could be in viewing the story and their actions. It doesn't mean they don't love both of them, but when you have a favorite anything it's almost impossible to view things without that entering into it, as much as we might try.
And, shellyd #$# to the discussion. Feel free to jump in, and please don't take offense or too personal our discussion. We are all friends discussing what we love.
Thank you, lancecowboy. I wasn't offended and I didn't take it personally, but I think I've offended others and they did take it personally and I'm sorry for that, so I think, as I said, I'll back out slowly now! I guess I like to look at the story a little differently, maybe NOT as emotionally, and that might be the problem.
Anyways, sorry for all the misunderstandings.
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[...]
Thank you for understanding this. I know it's very common for people to point out that they are "a Jack girl" or an "Ennis girl" (or Jack boy or Ennis boy), and as I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But I do think that when someone is more emotionally invested in one character or the other or identifies more strongly with one character or another, that they might not be as objective as they could be in viewing the story and their actions. It doesn't mean they don't love both of them, but when you have a favorite anything it's almost impossible to view things without that entering into it, as much as we might try.
Thank you, lancecowboy. I wasn't offended and I didn't take it personally, but I think I've offended others and they did take it personally and I'm sorry for that, so I think, as I said, I'll back out slowly now! I guess I like to look at the story a little differently, maybe NOT as emotionally, and that might be the problem.
Anyways, sorry for all the misunderstandings.
No worries, shellyd :ghug: O0 You explain things real well. I won't quote all of it, but I like what you said about our own perceptions enter into how we see things. It's so true. I try to be objective and put myself outside of my Ennis bias, but very often, especially when I first watched Brokeback Mountain over a year and half ago, I saw the movie and everything through Ennis' point of view, and added my own prejudices from my own personal experiences. It's human nature and it took me a long time to get over it, and also tested a lot of understanding patience from the people in this forum, for which I am always grateful.
I hope you will continue to post, and more often. Your objectivity has a lot to contribute to the discussion. It would be poorer without you. ^f^
But back to topic, with regard to the tire iron, you say that it is not possible to compare Ennis' fear of the tire iron with Jack's bravery etc. I think in a way, the tire iron is a symbol of society's homophobia, and Jack was indeed braver than Ennis, standing up to oppression, whether in the form of violence, or Aquierre's ridicule (verbal or just implied) and the ostracism of his peers and old man Newsome. Ennis knuckled under the weight of the oppression in his youthful past, and welcomed Jack's bravado. I think the source of Jack's courage comes from his Ma, her compassion and unconditional love, which Ennis had a taste of in the kitchen when he visited Lightning Flat. The same love that gave Jack courage to be his own man, without apology to the world, was the catalyst that gave Ennis the courage to accept the love offered, and embrace it, to overcome the fear of love that plagued him all his life. So, yes, I think the tire iron is very relevant, not as a physical instrument of violence, but as a symbolic instrument of oppression, intimidation, fear and self-loathing internalized by Ennis. Brokeback Mountain the love story is about Jack's courage facing it, and Ennis' liberation from it.
Just my take.
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On the subject of the "fear of love", it is certanly something that we see embodied in Ennis in the scene under consideration. My original point was that Jack's empathetic or "soft" qualities allowed him to reach out to Ennis at that critical moment. I think Ennis understood this, but didn't know how to respond, and his violent reaction speaks of his confusion, and not just his deep fears.
I think that things are very complex (as shellyd said) - confusion, fear, sadness for leaving Brokeback... so many feelings were in Ennis. he couldn't deal with them and he just explode in the moment when Jack was offering his love and comfort ... Damn! :(
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tpe, :ghug: :^^) you started all this ^f^ ;D I like the ying/yang comparison because it's true enough, I think. I understood what you meant, in terms of "more feminine than Ennis" but even that is unsatisfactory, as you said, the word "feminine" simple carries so much connotation in our deep seated prejudice of what a man and woman should be. In a sense, this relates to our preconception of the iconic cowboy's embodiment of masculinity without any feminine traits, hence the supposedly lack of feelings and emotions and love, or at least feeling emotions with a masculine twang. I like the sun/moon metaphor, but Ennis is also a receiver reflecting the love that Jack threw out at him from the beginning, so I can't say Jack is the moon, either. All in all, I'd say the two are like two shirts fitting one inside the other. They both have an outside and an inside, and they both can be the top/bottom...but I won't go there. ::) Just saying, it's all.
Lance, first the bad news ;D: Maybe we should be less prejudicial to understand the word "feminine" which I believed can be applied to both of them. Believe it or not - "feminine" is not bad at all.... I can tell you that! ;D ... even when it comes to our cowboys! ::)
Then - a good news: Looove the green part! :^^)
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I also think you're confusing my response to your post and my response to Loreen's post. You quoted both of my responses and replied to both. I never said that you called a Ennis a coward or that you pitted them against each other. But Loreen did indeed call Ennis a coward and I did respond to HER post. She also made the assumption, I guess based on her own feelings or maybe on a general tendency that she's seen, that I favored one character over the other. I don't. I know a lot of people do and that's fine, it's a visceral reaction and there's nothing wrong with that.
Shellyd ^f^!
Yup, I was sure that you're Ennis's lover, but you made it clear the you love both equaly. There are a lots of us who are more attached to one of them, but as I said - we can not love one without loving the other. It would be like cutting the branch of the tree. They belong together - in their lives and in our hearts. I am sure that all of us here think the same.
And please, don't be sorry for posting - it is good to have more opinions! :c)
Anyway, I hope to see ya around!
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I hope you will continue to post, and more often. Your objectivity has a lot to contribute to the discussion. It would be poorer without you. ^f^
I agree! :)
But back to topic, with regard to the tire iron, you say that it is not possible to compare Ennis' fear of the tire iron with Jack's bravery etc. I think in a way, the tire iron is a symbol of society's homophobia, and Jack was indeed braver than Ennis, standing up to oppression, whether in the form of violence, or Aquierre's ridicule (verbal or just implied) and the ostracism of his peers and old man Newsome. Ennis knuckled under the weight of the oppression in his youthful past, and welcomed Jack's bravado. I think the source of Jack's courage comes from his Ma, her compassion and unconditional love, which Ennis had a taste of in the kitchen when he visited Lightning Flat. The same love that gave Jack courage to be his own man, without apology to the world, was the catalyst that gave Ennis the courage to accept the love offered, and embrace it, to overcome the fear of love that plagued him all his life. So, yes, I think the tire iron is very relevant, not as a physical instrument of violence, but as a symbolic instrument of oppression, intimidation, fear and self-loathing internalized by Ennis. Brokeback Mountain the love story is about Jack's courage facing it, and Ennis' liberation from it.
Just my take.
Sometimes I forgot how good your posts can be! (t) (t) (t)
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Poor Loreen here knows what was my reaction when she said that Ennis suffered more than Jack (sorry Loreen, babe :^^) ), because I think about our boys with the same respect and admiration and DEVOTION.
*o) *o) *o)
Uh %&), I forgot to say - it's OK!
I take all our posts as an expression of admiration for BBM! Otherwise we won't be here! :^^)
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:) Loreen, you misunderstood my point about the connotations of the word feminine. I did not say that they are "BAD" connotations, just meanings of the word, interpretation that we associate with the word, as tpe suggested, soft, empathetic, emotional. The are not BAD at all. In fact, it is exactly my point, that Heath embraced those words in his portrayal of Ennis at the last few scenes, extending the iconic cowboy to be not just the masculine stoic strong silent suffering stereotype, but the more human, more humane, more feeling, more loving, more understanding of self and others, more aware of the emotions within and of others. That's why I disagree with tpe's assertion that Ennis subverted the iconic cowboy. My assertion is that Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, and the embodiment of all that we associate with it, including the hidden dimensions that are "feminine" traditionally, but now, as anyone who has seen Brokeback Mountain and understand its implications cannot deny, the iconic cowboy is a fuller personification of real humanity, a side that is even more admirable than the old western cowboys who were less developed, character-wise.
I hope that clarifies my meaning. :c) And thank you for the kind words. I will have to write more often, so you will NEVER forget how well I write. ::) :P ^f^ :^^)
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:) Loreen, you misunderstood my point about the connotations of the word feminine. I did not say that they are "BAD" connotations, just meanings of the word, interpretation that we associate with the word, as tpe suggested, soft, empathetic, emotional. The are not BAD at all. In fact, it is exactly my point, that Heath embraced those words in his portrayal of Ennis at the last few scenes, extending the iconic cowboy to be not just the masculine stoic strong silent suffering stereotype, but the more human, more humane, more feeling, more loving, more understanding of self and others, more aware of the emotions within and of others. That's why I disagree with tpe's assertion that Ennis subverted the iconic cowboy. My assertion is that Ennis WAS the iconic cowboy, and the embodiment of all that we associate with it, including the hidden dimensions that are "feminine" traditionally, but now, as anyone who has seen Brokeback Mountain and understand its implications cannot deny, the iconic cowboy is a fuller personification of real humanity, a side that is even more admirable than the old western cowboys who were less developed, character-wise.
I hope that clarifies my meaning. :c) And thank you for the kind words. I will have to write more often, so you will NEVER forget how well I write. ::) :P ^f^ :^^)
Yup! That clarifies it. :)
And, yup! Please write more! ::) :P You funny Lance! ;D :^^) :^^)
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I have been thinking about your subversion concept, tpe, and here is what I think.
In a sense, Jack and Ennis are the ying and yang of the cowboy stereotype: Jack, the rodeo cowboy who thrives in the limelight, who is the life of the party, the best salesman, and Ennis, the quiet devoted hard working solitary figure who knows what to do and how to do all things around the ranch, fixing the engine, pitching the tent, shooting the elk, cooking and protecting the sheep. That's what makes them perfect together, not competing with each other, but respectful of the other.
To me, Brokeback Mountain and Jack are definitely subversive of the iconic cowboy, but Ennis was the iconic cowboy that was subverted. He was the solitary figure content with nothing and beans. Jack was the rodeo cowboy more interested in belt buckles than doing the work around the camp. Jack was the one who wanted more than a few high attitude f@#$ks a few times a year. Jack was the one whose love kept their relationship going for twenty years. As far as Ennis was concerned, they could have left it on Brokeback that summer, and he would've been just fine with Alma and the girls...not passionately happy pawing the white from the moon, perhaps, but fine nonetheless. It was because of Jack, that he was like that, with nothing, a nobody without him, brooding in the bar alone, drinking beer after beer, like any iconic cowboy would. That's what the short story led to, the lonely Ennis living in an empty run down trailer.
I think it was Heath's genius to transform that miserable figure from the short story to the radiant symbol of an iconic cowboy made human, extending the strength and silence to embrace the frailty and sentiments of a man capable of love. So the answer to my earlier question, whether fear of love is innate to the iconic cowboy, is affirmative, but Heath's genius changed that, and made it possible to be a solitary self-reliant cowboy, with feelings. That's why Brokeback Mountain resonates with so many, and why Heath deserved an Academy Award for his performance. It was ground-breaking not because of the gay issue, but because of the fundamental American mystique of the cowboy and love. The fearlessness of Heath drove out the fear of love in the cowboy.
Heath turned a subverted cowboy into a new hero, for me.
:clap: Andrew...I think you know Ennis much better than you admit. I'm ready to read your next Fanfic whenever you're ready to "mull it over" & put it into words!
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Shellyd ^f^!
Yup, I was sure that you're Ennis's lover, but you made it clear the you love both equaly. There are a lots of us who are more attached to one of them, but as I said - we can not love one without loving the other. It would be like cutting the branch of the tree. They belong together - in their lives and in our hearts. I am sure that all of us here think the same.
And please, don't be sorry for posting - it is good to have more opinions! :c)
Anyway, I hope to see ya around!
Thanks Loreen! Good post..."they belong together-in their lives & in our hearts..."
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tpe, :ghug: :^^) you started all this ^f^ ;D I like the ying/yang comparison because it's true enough, I think. I understood what you meant, in terms of "more feminine than Ennis" but even that is unsatisfactory, as you said, the word "feminine" simple carries so much connotation in our deep seated prejudice of what a man and woman should be. In a sense, this relates to our preconception of the iconic cowboy's embodiment of masculinity without any feminine traits, hence the supposedly lack of feelings and emotions and love, or at least feeling emotions with a masculine twang. I like the sun/moon metaphor, but Ennis is also a receiver reflecting the love that Jack threw out at him from the beginning, so I can't say Jack is the moon, either. All in all, I'd say the two are like two shirts fitting one inside the other. They both have an outside and an inside, and they both can be the top/bottom...but I won't go there. ::) Just saying, it's all.
I am very contrite. :( ;D
But I admit that the contrats did occur to me early on, and their respective colors and shades seem to lend support to this view, don't you think?
Yes, unfortunately, terms are perhaps too loaded for many of us. I should try to find a more objective term that is not too obscure.
But going back to the fight scene, I find it interesting that Ennis was totally not in "control" of himself -- in marked contrast to his normal/usual self. (The other great exception is of course the Reunion kiss.) Jack certainly seemed more in control of himself, although he didn't try to dismiss Ennis's feelings and tried his best to cheer his friend up. In this, we see again see Jack in a "softer" light, as much as we see Ennis in a more intense, "explosive" one...
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Huh, I think I disagree here… ::)
Ennis can seem to be a very stoic, silent, in control cowboy, but for me he’s a ticking time-bomb. We don’t only see him lose control in the confrontation scene or in the reunion scene. He also lost control in the Thanksgiving scene (with Alma and then the truck driver), FNIT and in the fireworks scene. He’s very passionate and impulsive and I think that’s his real nature, but he was taught to hide his feelings and real self, and that’s why he looked like a typical cowboy but I never bought that. Ennis is able to show the greatest tenderness, and also he’s fierce when showing love, and I don’t think that a typical cowboy man could display such a rainbow of feelings.
Also, you say that Jack was in control here, but I can’t see it. Jack is always kind with Ennis, even when Ennis is shooting his plane out of the sky. I mean, Ennis said not to the sweet life in the reunion scene and Jack caressed Ennis ear. Ennis sent him away in the divorce scene and Jack didn’t bitch, didn’t fight, didn’t complain or say a bad word. There he was in control till he started to cry....
Even after Ennis punched him up on Brokeback Jack was calm, in self control.....understanding. Then, when Ennis mocked him about moving to Texas, Jack stormed away and didn’t complain much.
But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.
For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.
This view of our cowboys is also new for me....I started to feel like this one month ago....and still I have to explore this more deeply....I don't even know if this make sense...and I know you all don't share this idea with me.... ^f^ ;)
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Huh, I think I disagree here… ::)
Ennis can seem to be a very stoic, silent, in control cowboy, but for me he’s a ticking time-bomb. We don’t only see him lose control in the confrontation scene or in the reunion scene. He also lost control in the Thanksgiving scene (with Alma and then the truck driver), FNIT and in the fireworks scene. He’s very passionate and impulsive and I think that’s his real nature, but he was taught to hide his feelings and real self, and that’s why he looked like a typical cowboy but I never bought that. Ennis is able to show the greatest tenderness, and also he’s fierce in love, and I don’t think that a typical cowboy man could display such a rainbow of feelings.
Very interesting thoughts, Tammy. On the one hand, I agree with you that Ennis is passion suppressed beneath a layer of stoicism, and finds opportunities to erupt, either in anger or in love; on the other hand, I think the question here is whether a "typical cowboy" or the "iconic cowboy" has these fierce rainbow of feelings. My contention is that they do, and the suppression is realistic, and Heath made Ennis the real typical cowboy in spite of our prejudices of what real cowboys should be, and in the cases of people with PBS, changed those prejudices.
Also, you say that Jack was in control here, but I can’t see it. Jack is always kind with Ennis, even when Ennis is shooting his plane out of the sky. I mean, Ennis said not to the sweet life in the reunion scene and Jack caressed Ennis ear. Ennis sent him away in the divorce scene and Jack didn’t bitch, didn’t fight, didn’t complain or say a bad word. There he was in control till he started to cry....
Even after Ennis punched him up on Brokeback Jack was calm, in self control.....understanding. Then, when Ennis mocked him about moving to Texas, Jack stormed away and didn’t complain much.
But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.
For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.
Beautifully said, Tammy. Ennis and Jack also evolved at different times in the film, as you said, after the divorce, the riverside moving to Texas discussion, etc. It is why I don't agree with tpe's male/female split of the two. Ennis and Jack really are soul mates with no distinctions between the maleness and femaleness of either. They are one role then another, switching constantly. When we impose outside world standards to them individually, they fall apart. Together without the world, they are just one living breathing couple.
This view of our cowboys is also new for me....I started to feel like this one month ago....and still I have to explore this more deeply....I don't even know if this make sense...and I know you all don't share this idea with me.... ^f^ ;)
Thanks for sharing Tammy. ^f^ It's beautiful.
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But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.
For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.
Very interesting point you made here, Tam. ^f^
I totally agree with you, when you say Jack wasn’t in control in that final scene...
He was mad and hurt and so tired, I think. Tired of having to put up with everything Ennis decided for them, and he lashed out with everything he haven’t said during those years of suffering- all those thing that Ennis would never know if he hadn’t lost it like that.
It was his chance to make Ennis understand just how much he had suffered during those years- I think he really spoke without being afraid of Ennis’s reaction that time, ‘cause he wanted him to see he was really hurting.
I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
As for Ennis... I guess his true nature was restrained by what was tought him and by all the rules he felt he had to follow, but we know that he could be a tender, loving man, like we can see in his relationship with Jack. But I don’t know, it’s just me probably, but I see him as a shy/tender guy more than a really ‘passionate’ man. Of course he was capable of loving fiercly and I’m not saying he loved Jack less than Jack loved him or whatever... Just the word ‘passionate’ fits Jack better than Ennis in my own opinion.
‘Cause Ennis always tried to keep his emotions in check and I can see Jack as the one who let himself be carried away by his feelings (like in the divorce scene, when he drove 14 hours led by his hope only). And I think that Ennis’s suffocated true nature was the one of a tender man...
I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well. :)
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.
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Very interesting point you made here, Tam. ^f^
I totally agree with you, when you say Jack wasn’t in control in that final scene...
He was mad and hurt and so tired, I think. Tired of having to put up with everything Ennis decided for them, and he lashed out with everything he haven’t said during those years of suffering- all those thing that Ennis would never know if he hadn’t lost it like that.
It was his chance to make Ennis understand just how much he had suffered during those years- I think he really spoke without being afraid of Ennis’s reaction that time, ‘cause he wanted him to see he was really hurting.
I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
As for Ennis... I guess his true nature was restrained by what was tought him and by all the rules he felt he had to follow, but we know that he could be a tender, loving man, like we can see in his relationship with Jack. But I don’t know, it’s just me probably, but I see him more like a shy/tender guy more than a really ‘passionate’ man. Of course he was capable of loving fiercly and I’m not saying he loved Jack less than Jack loved him or whatever... Just the word ‘passionate’ fits Jack better than Ennis in my own opinion.
‘Cause Ennis always tried to keep his emotions in check and I can see Jack as the one who let himself be carried away by his feelings (like in the postcard scene, when he drove 14 hours led by his hope only). And I think that Ennis’s suffocated true nature was the one of a tender man...
I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well. :)
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.
I think both of them were really tired of having spent so much of their lives wasting their opportunities of being really happy with one another.This moment on the mountain,with this "little" excuse of delaying their new reunion some months more,was also the opportunity for both of them of telling each other all what they had inside themselves but that-maybe one for fear,and the one for pride-hadn't dared to say in out voice before.
And I also agree with both of you in that,on one side,Jack's nature was more emotional,more demonstrative,but at the same time calmer and more patient,capable to spend half his life waiting for the man he loved.In this sense,his stoicism was closer to the one of Ennis,who,on the other hand,spent this time hidding his real feelings and sensations.He's able to accept things the way they are,without moving an only finger to change it,and in this sense he can seem calmer and easier than Jack;but,as Tammy says,the fact of repressing his wishes all the time along with this unsatisfactory situation both of them must live,make him become a timing bomb,when his fears explode in some real violence attacks.Some aggressiveness that Jack didn't need to show,because he behave all the time in a more constant way,in spite of his more passionate way of being-at least in the surface...-.
I think,in sum,that,as in so many other aspects of their life,ways of being and reactions,Ennis and Jack complemented each other really well,giving one another this little,or not so little,part that lacks in the other.As a matter of fact,if they fell in love in these far times in the mountain,it's in a greater extent because of this complementary aspect,because of the way they can give themselves this strenght to addapt in each other the other's characteristics they were lacked of.IMHO.
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Very interesting thoughts, Tammy. On the one hand, I agree with you that Ennis is passion suppressed beneath a layer of stoicism, and finds opportunities to erupt, either in anger or in love; on the other hand, I think the question here is whether a "typical cowboy" or the "iconic cowboy" has these fierce rainbow of feelings. My contention is that they do, and the suppression is realistic, and Heath made Ennis the real typical cowboy in spite of our prejudices of what real cowboys should be, and in the cases of people with PBS, changed those prejudices.
Beautifully said, Tammy. Ennis and Jack also evolved at different times in the film, as you said, after the divorce, the riverside moving to Texas discussion, etc. It is why I don't agree with tpe's male/female split of the two. Ennis and Jack really are soul mates with no distinctions between the maleness and femaleness of either. They are one role then another, switching constantly. When we impose outside world standards to them individually, they fall apart. Together without the world, they are just one living breathing couple.
Thanks for sharing Tammy. ^f^ It's beautiful.
Thank you so much, Andrew. ^f^ I was thinking about you when I wrote this, because I knew that you don’t see Ennis as I see him, and that’s ok. I love reading what you think about it. I always learn from you!! :^^)
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Very interesting point you made here, Tam. ^f^
I totally agree with you, when you say Jack wasn’t in control in that final scene...
He was mad and hurt and so tired, I think. Tired of having to put up with everything Ennis decided for them, and he lashed out with everything he haven’t said during those years of suffering- all those thing that Ennis would never know if he hadn’t lost it like that.
It was his chance to make Ennis understand just how much he had suffered during those years- I think he really spoke without being afraid of Ennis’s reaction that time, ‘cause he wanted him to see he was really hurting.
I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
As for Ennis... I guess his true nature was restrained by what was tought him and by all the rules he felt he had to follow, but we know that he could be a tender, loving man, like we can see in his relationship with Jack. But I don’t know, it’s just me probably, but I see him more like a shy/tender guy more than a really ‘passionate’ man. Of course he was capable of loving fiercly and I’m not saying he loved Jack less than Jack loved him or whatever... Just the word ‘passionate’ fits Jack better than Ennis in my own opinion.
‘Cause Ennis always tried to keep his emotions in check and I can see Jack as the one who let himself be carried away by his feelings (like in the postcard scene, when he drove 14 hours led by his hope only). And I think that Ennis’s suffocated true nature was the one of a tender man...
I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well. :)
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.
Hey, Baby B!!!! ^f^
So good having you here!! :clap: :clap: Thank you for commenting on my post.
Well, I don’t see Ennis as shy. I know that it’s the common word that everyone uses for him, but it doesn’t work for me, because I am shy, real shy, and Ennis doesn’t act like I use to do. Ennis danced with Cassie, even he if didn’t like it that much, then did it again when they both were with Junior; he went with Jack to have a drink that first time they met, he told stories to his girls in front of his angry ex and a man he hardly knew (Monroe), etc....
I think that shyness is not the same that quietness, you know? I think Ennis was quiet in the outside, that he didn’t talk that much, but it doesn’t mean that he was shy. I am shy and I can speak a blue streak, so Ennis being silent doesn’t mean that he’s shy.
About passionate I still see him as a very passionate man. You said that he tried to keep his emotions in check, and that’s true: he kept them in check, but it only means that he kept his passionate self in check, so we can hardly see it....But it was there nontheless.
I mean, it was Ennis the one losing control in the love department (FNIT and Reunion scene) and also it was him again who acted very passionately and fierce when he was scared or mad (the punch to Jack, the fireworks scene, thanksgiving scene, the confrontation scene), even in the domestic intimacy with Alma when he flipped her and took her like he did with Jack. Ennis tries to keep his emotions in check, right, but he hardly ever did success. He was so visceral, and the proof of that is that he vomited or fought someone when he couldn’t control his emotions. He was very passionate in every aspect of his life, and had not his father showed him Earl in that ditch, I am absolutely convinced that Ennis would have been a man who showed his emotions openly, above all, because he can’t control them.
For me Jack was sweet and strong, kind and a constant fighter, but I still think that Ennis was more passionate. When Jack drove to Riverton in the divorce scene, for me, it was not a demonstration of passion. I think that Jack acted like that out of sheer devotion and hope. Also I admit that Jack is a very impulsive man too, but he’s not as much as Ennis, because Jack walked on egg shells during 20 years, avoiding startling Ennis, and had he been that passionate I don’t think he could have done for that long. Remember that Jack only exploded in the confrontation scene, and a passionate person had done that so much earlier. Also remember how he reacted when Aguirre told him about steaming the rose...I don’t think that Ennis had reacted like that!! I think that Ennis’d have kicked Aguirre’s ass for good.
Jack loved deeply, blindly, he hoped to live with Ennis, but Ennis had told him that he couldn’t let Alma and the babies down, so when Jack got that postcard he thought that Ennis was telling him that now they could live together, because Alma didn’t need him anymore. So for me, Jack drove 14 hours north not because he was passionate, but because it was logical to think that now Ennis and him had a change to be happy.
About Ennis true nature being a tender one, I so agree with that. In my previous post I said that for me Ennis is passionate and tender. You can see both of those traits in the film, and especially in the SS. I’ve always defined Jack as sweet and Ennis as tender. That man was tenderness on legs, with Jack, his girls, his horses. Again, had not his father ruined his childhood, I bet he had showed that tender side more often. But it doesn’t mean that he’s not passionate. He kept both emotions in check, but they were there, and Jack could see them.
That’s why I don’t think Ennis was a stoic, shy, silent typical cowboy. I think he was a passionate, tender, good man, who was scared and conflicted because of what he saw being a child, and also because of his inner homophobia and what society expected from him, and that’s what made him act that way, like a stoic cowboy....but it doesn’t mean that he was like that. Often we are forced to act in a way in front of the society but we are all the contrary inside.
This is only my opinion, and like I said before, I know that maybe I am alone here with this, but this is how I feel our boys right now.
Thank you so much for letting me know what you think, Baby B!! Love it when you are here. :^^)
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I think both of them were really tired of having spent so much of their lives wasting their opportunities of being really happy with one another.This moment on the mountain,with this "little" excuse of delaying their new reunion some months more,was also the opportunity for both of them of telling each other all what they had inside themselves but that-maybe one for fear,and the one for pride-hadn't dared to say in out voice before.
And I also agree with both of you in that,on one side,Jack's nature was more emotional,more demonstrative,but at the same time calmer and more patient,capable to spend half his life waiting for the man he loved.In this sense,his stoicism was closer to the one of Ennis,who,on the other hand,spent this time hidding his real feelings and sensations.He's able to accept things the way they are,without moving an only finger to change it,and in this sense he can seem calmer and easier than Jack;but,as Tammy says,the fact of repressing his wishes all the time along with this unsatisfactory situation both of them must live,make him become a timing bomb,when his fears explode in some real violence attacks.Some aggressiveness that Jack didn't need to show,because he behave all the time in a more constant way,in spite of his more passionate way of being-at least in the surface...-.
I think,in sum,that,as in so many other aspects of their life,ways of being and reactions,Ennis and Jack complemented each other really well,giving one another this little,or not so little,part that lacks in the other.As a matter of fact,if they fell in love in these far times in the mountain,it's in a greater extent because of this complementary aspect,because of the way they can give themselves this strenght to addapt in each other the other's characteristics they were lacked of.IMHO.
LOL!! I just spent a year writing a post for Baby B and now I have to reply yours!! ;D ;D
I agree with what you said here, Ali. ^f^
I think that Ennis accepted things not because he was calm or stoic, but because he didn’t have another choice. He was scared, conflicted, hurting....and he acted out of it. Jack, in the other hand, thought that they both had other choices, that they could change their lives, and still he accepted what Ennis had to give, he was calm and patient about it, he was the stoic one who accepted the nature of their love and the circumstances they have to live that love in. He really was there the one who remained in silent for 20 years, hoping, yeah, but accepting their fate. That’s why in the confrontation scene he said “we coulda had a sweet life”, I mean he didn’t say “we can have a sweet life but you don’t want”...He used the past tense, because he knew that they were not gonna live that sweet life ever and still he kept coming for more, he kept meeting Ennis, he accepted with stoicism the way their relationship was and was gonna be always.
It’s true that Jack was the more demonstrative one, as you said, and I think that’s the key word here. He was more demonstrative than Ennis, but it doesn’t mean that he was more emotional or passionate than Ennis. It’s only that he didn’t have that horrible past heavy over his shoulders like Ennis had, and those other prejudices, and he could show more of his emotions, while Ennis couldn’t. Still, Jack didn’t act on his feeling most of times, because he was afraid of Ennis reaction, and that once again tells me that he was the stoic one, you know, the one who had to accept a situation that kept him from showing his real self. I think he, like Ennis, kept his emotions in check for 20 years.
As Ali said, the fact that Ennis had to kept his emotions in check made him a time-bomb, but it was the same for Jack. That’s why he exploded in the confrontation scene.
Oh, God, I can’t stop rambling!!! ;D ::)
I am so very interested in reading what Andrew, or Thomas and the rest of brokies have to say.
Thank you for your post, Ali. ^f^
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...I still see him as a very passionate man. You said that he tried to keep his emotions in check, and that’s true: he kept them in check, but it only means that he kept his passionate self in check, so we can hardly see it....But it was there nontheless.
I mean, it was Ennis the one losing control in the love department (FNIT and Reunion scene) and also it was him again who acted very passionately and fierce when he was scared or mad (the punch to Jack, the fireworks scene, thanksgiving scene, the confrontation scene), even in the domestic intimacy with Alma when he flipped her and took her like he did with Jack. Ennis tries to keep his emotions in check, right, but he hardly ever did success. He was so visceral, and the proof of that is that he vomited or fought someone when he couldn’t control his emotions. He was very passionate in every aspect of his life, and had not his father showed him Earl in that ditch, I am absolutely convinced that Ennis would have been a man who showed his emotions openly, above all, because he can’t control them.
...Also I admit that Jack is a very impulsive man too, but he’s not as much as Ennis, because Jack walked on egg shells during 20 years, avoiding startling Ennis, and had he been that passionate I don’t think he could have done for that long. Remember that Jack only exploded in the confrontation scene, and a passionate person had done that so much earlier. Also remember how he reacted when Aguirre told him about steaming the rose...I don’t think that Ennis had reacted like that!! I think that Ennis’d have kicked Aguirre’s ass for good.
Jack loved deeply, blindly, he hoped to live with Ennis, but Ennis had told him that he couldn’t let Alma and the babies down, so when Jack got that postcard he thought that Ennis was telling him that now they could live together, because Alma didn’t need him anymore. So for me, Jack drove 14 hours north not because he was passionate, but because it was logical to think that now Ennis and him had a change to be happy.
Thank you for sharing your deep thoughts, sweetie. :)
Reading them it's a pleasure. Never thought of Ennis as passionate before, but what you said here was right anyway... ^f^ And you're right again, saying that shy and quiet are two different things, I know. It's just, in our minds quiet=shy, isn't it? 'Cause lots of times it's like that. I mean, I'm both quiet AND shy.
And Jack, well, I think most of the times he was afraid of losing Ennis, that's why he kept quiet. The divorce scene, I don't see it as a logical thing though... I mean, driving all that way... he wasn't even sure Ennis would finally be with him. He just hoped so. And when he didn't say anything to Ennis... he was broken-hearted but he didn't tell him. He just drove away without saying anything. :(
He did it because of Ennis, another time...
Yeah, he had not only a lot of hope, but a lot of patience too...
Thanks Tam. :^^)
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Thank you so much, Andrew. ^f^ I was thinking about you when I wrote this, because I knew that you don’t see Ennis as I see him, and that’s ok. I love reading what you think about it. I always learn from you!! :^^)
The feelings are mutual. :^^) ^f^ :c)
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Huh, I think I disagree here… ::)
Ennis can seem to be a very stoic, silent, in control cowboy, but for me he’s a ticking time-bomb. We don’t only see him lose control in the confrontation scene or in the reunion scene. He also lost control in the Thanksgiving scene (with Alma and then the truck driver), FNIT and in the fireworks scene. He’s very passionate and impulsive and I think that’s his real nature, but he was taught to hide his feelings and real self, and that’s why he looked like a typical cowboy but I never bought that. Ennis is able to show the greatest tenderness, and also he’s fierce when showing love, and I don’t think that a typical cowboy man could display such a rainbow of feelings.
Also, you say that Jack was in control here, but I can’t see it. Jack is always kind with Ennis, even when Ennis is shooting his plane out of the sky. I mean, Ennis said not to the sweet life in the reunion scene and Jack caressed Ennis ear. Ennis sent him away in the divorce scene and Jack didn’t bitch, didn’t fight, didn’t complain or say a bad word. There he was in control till he started to cry....
Even after Ennis punched him up on Brokeback Jack was calm, in self control.....understanding. Then, when Ennis mocked him about moving to Texas, Jack stormed away and didn’t complain much.
But here, oh my, Jack is a hurricane, bitching, accusing, screaming....He’s not our kind very patient Jack....He’s hurting so much, he’s blind with rage and pain and dissapointment. I honestly think he lost it bad. It was only when Ennis lost it too that Jack regained control and was again his kind compassionate self.
For me, it was the other way around...I mean, for me it was Ennis the very passionate one under that facade of stoic cowboy. And our lively Jack, always laughing, goofy around, chatty and romantic, for me, he was the calm one, the one who really listen patiently and accept the nature of their love without complaining. I mean, of course he fought during all those years to live with Ennis, and of course he bitched about cold and Aguirre and all. But just like Ennis silent self was a facade of his very fierce passionate real self, I think that Jack lively self was also the facade for that strong man who knew that Ennis couldn’t live with him and give him what he needed and still he kept comming for more, accepting with stoicism how things were, remaining silent and understanding (divorce scene) when he could have screamed and exploded.
This view of our cowboys is also new for me....I started to feel like this one month ago....and still I have to explore this more deeply....I don't even know if this make sense...and I know you all don't share this idea with me.... ^f^ ;)
Well, you are right in many points. But I'm probably confusing things here because I was refering to the scene in 1963 right before they came down BBM, and not the Last Confrontation. Did I confuse you here? Do my comments make more sense, in this light?
In any case, when I speak of control, I meant Jack having control over himself, and not over Ennis. He was more self-possessed, and IMO, less tortured by inner demons.
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I also agree that Jack was the one who accepted the nature of their relationship for what it was.
And I agree.
I hope I made myself clear ‘cause I don’t speak english that well. :)
I’m always interested in seeing what everyone has to say.
Yes, you did make yourself very clear. :)
I also happen to see Ennis more as an introverted and shy person rather than someone who was by nature passionate. He was no intellectual about love, and I don't think he thought things through. But he did feel things deeply, even though he may not be able to express these feelings passionately -- at least most of the time. Whenever those passions surfaced, he usually broke down.
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I think both of them were really tired of having spent so much of their lives wasting their opportunities of being really happy with one another.This moment on the mountain,with this "little" excuse of delaying their new reunion some months more,was also the opportunity for both of them of telling each other all what they had inside themselves but that-maybe one for fear,and the one for pride-hadn't dared to say in out voice before.
Would you consider "emotional exhaustion" an apt term to descibe both of them near the end? It is as if they had been at a stalemate for too long in a kind of war of attrition, and that any movement would have been welcome -- even if was the movement of retreat.
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Well, you are right in many points. But I'm probably confusing things here because I was refering to the scene in 1963 right before they came down BBM, and not the Last Confrontation. Did I confuse you here? Do my comments make more sense, in this light?
In any case, when I speak of control, I meant Jack having control over himself, and not over Ennis. He was more self-possessed, and IMO, less tortured by inner demons.
Oh, God, you were not talking about the confrontation scene? (t) (t) I am SO stupid sometimes!!! ;D ;D Sorry, Thomas, of course your comment makes more sense now.... ;D ::)
I knew that you were talking about self control, babe. ^f^
And I agree.
Yes, you did make yourself very clear. :)
I also happen to see Ennis more as an introverted and shy person rather than someone who was by nature passionate. He was no intellectual about love, and I don't think he thought things through. But he did feel things deeply, even though he may not be able to express these feelings passionately -- at least most of the time. Whenever those passions surfaced, he usually broke down.
I think that being passionate has nothing to do with being intellectual about love or thinking things through. I think that when you are a bit intellectual about love you are a romantic (and you know that I am talking about the true meaning of the word romantic, and not about people who like reading poems to their lovers under the moon light... ::) ), and sure Ennis was not that.
For me passionate is a person that doesn't think things through but act without thinking, impulsively, moved by their strong feelings, love, rage, fear....I think that Ennis was like that. Jack thought more things...and he was more careful. When Ennis was happy, or in lust or scared he just exploded and that's a trait of very passionate people. He didn't stop to meassure the consequences of his acts....he just acted, did what he needed to do, and sure most of the times he was not even aware of what he was doing and later he was stunned at his own behavior (reunion scene, FNIT...). Ennis put a huge amount of passion in whatever he did: loving Jack, fighting people or just working.
Just my opinion babe. :^^)
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Oh, God, you were not talking about the confrontation scene? (t) (t) I am SO stupid sometimes!!! ;D ;D Sorry, Thomas, of course your comment makes more sense now.... ;D ::)
I knew that you were talking about self control, babe. ^f^
No, that was my mistake. I should have known that you were talking about the Confrontation scene. ;)
I'll respond later to the second part of your post. :)
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Would you consider "emotional exhaustion" an apt term to descibe both of them near the end? It is as if they had been at a stalemate for too long in a kind of war of attrition, and that any movement would have been welcome -- even if was the movement of retreat.
You always find the right description,Thomas ¡ (:) Yes,I think this could be a more than apt term to describe what they felt in FC time.I'd describe it also as a "psychological war",because each one of them "attacked" in the moment and with the weapons were going to hurt the other the most emotionally speaking.
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I think that being passionate has nothing to do with being intellectual about love or thinking things through. I think that when you are a bit intellectual about love you are a romantic (and you know that I am talking about the true meaning of the word romantic, and not about people who like reading poems to their lovers under the moon light... ::) ), and sure Ennis was not that.
For me passionate is a person that doesn't think things through but act without thinking, impulsively, moved by their strong feelings, love, rage, fear....I think that Ennis was like that. Jack thought more things...and he was more careful. When Ennis was happy, or in lust or scared he just exploded and that's a trait of very passionate people. He didn't stop to meassure the consequences of his acts....he just acted, did what he needed to do, and sure most of the times he was not even aware of what he was doing and later he was stunned at his own behavior (reunion scene, FNIT...). Ennis put a huge amount of passion in whatever he did: loving Jack, fighting people or just working.
Just my opinion babe. :^^)
But sometimes, a romantic also shuts out the mind in favor of sentiment -- which is really rooted at the heart. Would you consider Jack to be a romantic? Dreamers and romantics sometimes go hand in hand.
Ennis was perhaps "cooler" --in the sense that he didn't express emotions until they boiled out -- as an explosive volcano erupts when the pressure is too great.
But one also notes that Ennis did seem to think things a lot also -- about society and how they are to be viewed and watched. Jack didn't seem to think much about this, and to me, it doesn't seem to show a thinker as much as it reinforces the image of an impractical dreamer.
These opposing tendencies is I think at the root of the fight on BBM.
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You always find the right description,Thomas ¡ (:) Yes,I think this could be a more than apt term to describe what they felt in FC time.I'd describe it also as a "psychological war",because each one of them "attacked" in the moment and with the weapons were going to hurt the other the most emotionally speaking.
Yes, I think that in the Last Confrontation, they put out all the stops, and there was a recklessness in the weay they used their weapons on each other. Most of the time, it was total psychological warfare, but in the said scene, they went out of their way to try to destroy the stalemate, a people tried to do in the trench warfare of the First World War.
Interesting enough, they seemed to have stopped at the very brink... Was it in time? Or too late?
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But sometimes, a romantic also shuts out the mind in favor of sentiment -- which is really rooted at the heart. Would you consider Jack to be a romantic? Dreamers and romantics sometimes go hand in hand.
Hey Thomas!! ^f^
Yeah, you are absolutely right about this. And, for me, dreamers and romantics are always hand in hand. There is not romanticism without dreams of love. One trait of romantics is their ability to dream high and idealize their lovers and the very notion of love, to then fall hard when they become aware of the reality. I think that’s very Jack, because he idealized that summer on Brokeback and the Ennis he met there, the Ennis of the DE (though I think that Jack was a thinker too...see below... ::) ).
Ennis was perhaps "cooler" --in the sense that he didn't express emotions until they boiled out -- as an explosive volcano erupts when the pressure is too great.
But one also notes that Ennis did seem to think things a lot also -- about society and how they are to be viewed and watched.
Mmmm....you are right and still I think I disagree.... ::)
I think that Ennis didn’t think much about society and how they are to be viewed....I mean, of course he had “THAT” present the whole time, of course he couldn’t forget about what society expected from him, but I think that he behaved like that, acting like he was supposed to do, because it was what was taught to him when he was a kid, and because it was what he heard all his life. I think he didn’t give much thoughts to how society could REALLY see them, because then he could have found out with time that things are not black or white and that he had options. But Ennis didn’t even think about that, he couldn't see the choices. He just behaved how he was taught, he just only did what everybody else did, and when his little world got unbalanced his reacted in a passionate way (fighting or kissing the living lights out of Jack), again without giving much thought to his actions. I think that Ennis was a man of action, not thoughts. I think that’s why Annie P said that Ennis was a man “made of horses and fighting, his reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley’s saddle catalogue.” Also our boys never talked about sex.....and I think we all agree that Ennis was not aware of what Jack and he had was love till the shirts scene....so I think all that shows that Ennis gave little thought to his feelings and just felt, and, for me, he felt in a very passionate way.
Jack didn't seem to think much about this, and to me, it doesn't seem to show a thinker as much as it reinforces the image of an impractical dreamer.
And yeah, Jack is the dreamer (I so love that <^( <^( ), but I think that he was the thinker too….I know that often dreams and rational thoughts don’t go hand in hand, but Jack dreams, though difficult, were not impossible or crazy. I mean, it was complicate for two men to live together back then in WY, but it was not absurd. Jack was not in love, like many romantics, with the idea of love and he was not pursuing a chimera. He just loved another human being and wanted to make a life with him, and he believed that it was possible, so, for me, it shows that he thought a lot of times about it, about the possibilities, about the things against them, about their chances. I think he had all planned. He didn’t act as impulsively as Ennis when he was challenged. He thought carefully how many steps to take at once, how far to push, so he didn’t lose Ennis. And I think he was practical, because he thought about LF to be the place to start that sweet life, and sure he was aware that living with their parents wouldn’t be as dangerous as living together alone; also he wanted to make a deal with LD so he got money to start that new life. I think he dreamed a lot, because he loved a lot, but he was no fool. He sure thought about society more than Ennis did, and that’s why he knew that two men could find a way to live together, like those men Andrew knows about who lived more than 40 years together.
So...I keep thinking that Ennis was more quiet than Jack and more careful, but he also was more impulsive and passionate. And Jack was the dreamer, and still the one who thought about their relationship and the possibilities over and over, the one who was in real contact with the world.
Now, does it make sense? ;D ;)
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Great discussion, tpe, Tammy.
I agree about romantics and dreamers, and Jack.
With respect to Ennis, I agree that he is a man of action, as Tammy quoted from the short story, and that he is impulsive when it comes to his feelings. Jack is more considered when following his feelings, more patient. Waiting for twenty years is certainly patient.
However, I think Ennis is also a thinker but perhaps in different things in life, like his job as a ranch hand, as a cowboy, tracking and killing the coyote, shooting the elk, fixing the car. Ennis and Jack are just different kinds of thinkers. To fall back to our stereotypes again, Ennis thinks about guy stuff, but Jack thinks about feelings. It doesn't make Ennis more masculine and Jack more feminine, because it is Jack who takes the initiatives while Ennis responds. Ennis and Jack are different, and complementary.
Just my two cents.
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...I think Ennis is also a thinker but perhaps in different things in life, like his job as a ranch hand, as a cowboy, tracking and killing the coyote, shooting the elk, fixing the car. Ennis and Jack are just different kinds of thinkers. To fall back to our stereotypes again, Ennis thinks about guy stuff, but Jack thinks about feelings. It doesn't make Ennis more masculine and Jack more feminine, because it is Jack who takes the initiatives while Ennis responds. Ennis and Jack are different, and complementary.
Well said. I agree. ^f^
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Great posts everyone! :clap:
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Hey Thomas!! ^f^
Yeah, you are absolutely right about this. And, for me, dreamers and romantics are always hand in hand. There is not romanticism without dreams of love. One trait of romantics is their ability to dream high and idealize their lovers and the very notion of love, to then fall hard when they become aware of the reality. I think that’s very Jack, because he idealized that summer on Brokeback and the Ennis he met there, the Ennis of the DE (though I think that Jack was a thinker too...see below... ::) ).
Mmmm....you are right and still I think I disagree.... ::)
I think that Ennis didn’t think much about society and how they are to be viewed....I mean, of course he had “THAT” present the whole time, of course he couldn’t forget about what society expected from him, but I think that he behaved like that, acting like he was supposed to do, because it was what was taught to him when he was a kid, and because it was what he heard all his life. I think he didn’t give much thoughts to how society could REALLY see them, because then he could have found out with time that things are not black or white and that he had options. But Ennis didn’t even think about that, he couldn't see the choices. He just behaved how he was taught, he just only did what everybody else did, and when his little world got unbalanced his reacted in a passionate way (fighting or kissing the living lights out of Jack), again without giving much thought to his actions. I think that Ennis was a man of action, not thoughts. I think that’s why Annie P said that Ennis was a man “made of horses and fighting, his reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley’s saddle catalogue.” Also our boys never talked about sex.....and I think we all agree that Ennis was not aware of what Jack and he had was love till the shirts scene....so I think all that shows that Ennis gave little thought to his feelings and just felt, and, for me, he felt in a very passionate way.
And yeah, Jack is the dreamer (I so love that <^( <^( ), but I think that he was the thinker too….I know that often dreams and rational thoughts don’t go hand in hand, but Jack dreams, though difficult, were not impossible or crazy. I mean, it was complicate for two men to live together back then in WY, but it was not absurd. Jack was not in love, like many romantics, with the idea of love and he was not pursuing a chimera. He just loved another human being and wanted to make a life with him, and he believed that it was possible, so, for me, it shows that he thought a lot of times about it, about the possibilities, about the things against them, about their chances. I think he had all planned. He didn’t act as impulsively as Ennis when he was challenged. He thought carefully how many steps to take at once, how far to push, so he didn’t lose Ennis. And I think he was practical, because he thought about LF to be the place to start that sweet life, and sure he was aware that living with their parents wouldn’t be as dangerous as living together alone; also he wanted to make a deal with LD so he got money to start that new life. I think he dreamed a lot, because he loved a lot, but he was no fool. He sure thought about society more than Ennis did, and that’s why he knew that two men could find a way to live together, like those men Andrew knows about who lived more than 40 years together.
So...I keep thinking that Ennis was more quiet than Jack and more careful, but he also was more impulsive and passionate. And Jack was the dreamer, and still the one who thought about their relationship and the possibilities over and over, the one who was in real contact with the world.
Now, does it make sense? ;D ;)
So in a sense, the "debate" is over Ennis then, since we agree mostly about Jack. :)
Ennis could certainly be impulsive and passionate -- just look at the Reunion kiss and one gets it. But we should also note that before kissing Jack in that scene, we see Ennis looking around to see if nobody was watching. Had he been completely impulsive, he wouldn't have cared and taken the risk -- something that I see Jack is more likely to do. It seems to suggest that even in his state of impulsiveness, Ennis was "thinking" about the world around him...
Now, from your discussion above, I know that you won't consider this as thinking -- you would say that deep down, he really didn't care, but that he was not forgetful of what society expected them to behave. IN a way, this is the difference between our POVs, I guess. I tend to think that Ennis did in fact care and think about how they are viewed by society at large...
:)
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Great discussion, tpe, Tammy.
I agree about romantics and dreamers, and Jack.
With respect to Ennis, I agree that he is a man of action, as Tammy quoted from the short story, and that he is impulsive when it comes to his feelings. Jack is more considered when following his feelings, more patient. Waiting for twenty years is certainly patient.
However, I think Ennis is also a thinker but perhaps in different things in life, like his job as a ranch hand, as a cowboy, tracking and killing the coyote, shooting the elk, fixing the car. Ennis and Jack are just different kinds of thinkers. To fall back to our stereotypes again, Ennis thinks about guy stuff, but Jack thinks about feelings. It doesn't make Ennis more masculine and Jack more feminine, because it is Jack who takes the initiatives while Ennis responds. Ennis and Jack are different, and complementary.
Just my two cents.
This is a good distinction about "thinking", lance. And as seemingly disparate it might sound, one can "think" about ones's feelings, as much as one "feels" one's thoughts. These are complementary... Feeling and thinking can be very intertwined.
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A combination of different reasons made me think of this thread again, and how Ennis was afraid to love, not just homophobia, loving another man, but also loving anyone in general.
Jack was the key that opened his heart, to allow him to love. Without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life not knowing love, how to love.
His relationship with Alma and Cassie were all superficial, going through the motions, in and out of bed, doing his duty.
His relationship with his children were deeper, but even with them, he did not know how to love or to show them his love.
As already mentioned here and else where, Ennis had difficulty with love, and all through life, love was a stranger to him, except with Jack. It's probably why he never loved anyone else, why he would never consider himself gay. Loving another man was as alien to him as loving another woman.
If Jack lost Ennis, he might have recovered and moved on. But Ennis losing Jack, was the end of the world.
In any case, Ennis was lucky that he at least met Jack. Many unlucky people go through life never knowing love, and never realizing what they don't have, thinking as they go to their grave, that they knew love because they were married, or had sex, or whatever. It is often the fear of love that lead us to misunderstand love, and never have it.
I'd like to know what Ennis was thinking about that night before SNIT, sitting in front of the fire, while Jack waited. What thinking process led him to decide that Jack was the one he could trust, that this one shot thing with Jack won't change his life forever? And of course, it did indeed change his life forever. How did he know it was the kind of change that he could accept, for a life time?
So many questions...and so few answers. It's what gets me, and PBS.
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I'd like to know what Ennis was thinking about that night before SNIT, sitting in front of the fire, while Jack waited. What thinking process led him to decide that Jack was the one he could trust, that this one shot thing with Jack won't change his life forever? And of course, it did indeed change his life forever. How did he know it was the kind of change that he could accept, for a life time?
Hi, Andrew! I was thinking of this topic a few days ago, too. The original thread derives from the events on that last day on the mountain, where Jack had acted so cavalier, and Ennis had gone off to sulk/grieve. And then the parting scene, where neither could risk exposing their true feelings because they could not be sure how the other really felt. Did the other consider it all a passing friendship, a sexual fling? Both had found love, and maybe in the weeks they would have had if the summer hadn't ended early, they would have worked that out. But there was, I had thought, a fear of telling the depth of their feelings, for fear they were not returned, and then, past that, a fear of love itself, which always alters a person's life.
I've always been surprised that the other forums are in a coma on this issue. It's all about AP's (IMO, mis-fired) central theme of rural homophobia. They have no explanations for Ennis brooding, and the fight itself, which seemed to arise from Jack's unexplained playfulness at a time Ennis was confronting severe loss. But then, (if you can believe this), they also have a solid movement towards a Dark Ennis theory: wife-beater, sado-masochist, ignorant brute. Which I believe is the inevitable result of their ignoring those scenes we have explored here. It's like, did they see the same movie? Ennis, unable to love? Phew.
But what caused me to remember this thread and topic were the love stories of Jane Austen. Yeah, I'm outting myself as an incurable romantic, just by admitting I greatly react to her various books. But, so what?
Anyway, Persuasion was on Masterpiece Theater and there it was !!!. The two main characters could not openly admit their love for each other, for fear of rejection! And there are those recurring themes in her stories: coming to grips with the reality of love and then fear of not being loved back.
Of course, Ennis and Jack had had sex, and hooked up for a couple of months, but still, putting aside the modern liberties of behavior there, they still had the exact same problems of Jane Austen's lovers.
In Austen's novels, there are happy endings whereby the lovers can finally rejoice and wallow in reassuring each other that they had always loved. I think, Andrew, in your noticing of the changes in Ennis in the Diner scene, those were the same epiphanies that had occurred in Austen's lovers, and so I think your theory is all the more supportable.
Only, there was no happy ending for our two heroes. AP was having none of the traditional loves, and moved to tragedy, leaving Ennis only the final epiphany of the shirts. Deprived of finally admitting love to the beloved, as had been given to others, he was left to stroking and whispering to the shirts, not the beloved one, himself. Fear of love, fear of admitting love, is, I think, standard, but has different endings.
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Hi, Andrew! I was thinking of this topic a few days ago, too. The original thread derives from the events on that last day on the mountain, where Jack had acted so cavalier, and Ennis had gone off to sulk/grieve. And then the parting scene, where neither could risk exposing their true feelings because they could not be sure how the other really felt. Did the other consider it all a passing friendship, a sexual fling? Both had found love, and maybe in the weeks they would have had if the summer hadn't ended early, they would have worked that out. But there was, I had thought, a fear of telling the depth of their feelings, for fear they were not returned, and then, past that, a fear of love itself, which always alters a person's life.
Now that you mentioned it, I'd like to know what went through the mind of the sulking Ennis, too. Those two moments must have been the deepest thoughts that Ennis had had all his life, as deep as the thoughts he had after what his father showed him back when he was nine.
As you may guessed, I am not of the camp that has Ennis consciously thinking he was in love with Jack. It's why he didn't know what happened to him in the alley with 'em terrible stomach cramps, until years later, maybe just before the reunion. Even then, I think he was only conscious of the good sex they had, and not discovering the meaning of love. As we discussed already, Ennis probably never truly experienced love in any form, not from his parents, and especially not from his brothers and sisters. He didn't know what love was, not even when it was starring him in the face. It was why Ennis looked so astonished in the diner when confronted with Cassie's love.
So in my opinion, it was not fear of rejection that kept Ennis from Jack. It may well be what kept Jack from Ennis, however. Jack knew something was special with Ennis. It's why he stole the shirt. Jack knew what love was, from his Ma and from all 'em times when he rode more than bull. He knew the times with Ennis was different from all 'em other times. He may have interpreted Ennis's fear of love as rejection, or aloofness or whatever and prompted Jack to be more cautious. But I am more interested in what went on with Ennis, up there on the hill, the tiny figure sitting alone on the grassy knoll, and there on the log by the fire, deep in thought, or perhaps deep with feelings.
I've always been surprised that the other forums are in a coma on this issue. It's all about AP's (IMO, mis-fired) central theme of rural homophobia. They have no explanations for Ennis brooding, and the fight itself, which seemed to arise from Jack's unexplained playfulness at a time Ennis was confronting severe loss. But then, (if you can believe this), they also have a solid movement towards a Dark Ennis theory: wife-beater, sado-masochist, ignorant brute. Which I believe is the inevitable result of their ignoring those scenes we have explored here. It's like, did they see the same movie? Ennis, unable to love? Phew.
This is news to me since I don't go to the other forums after the initial search and found this here valley of peace and friendship. I am glad you've been venturing further afield and bringing back news of stories from afar. It's the nature of great art that many people with diverse points of view will interpret and see it differently. There are those who don't appreciate Brokeback Mountain at all, seeing only a gay cowboy movie, and then there are those who see it only as a gay morality tale. I think it is the unique gift of this forum that our open and frank discussion without cynicism yielded a different and brighter insights in he psyche of Ennis, one that is closer to the interpretation of Annie Proulx and most of all, Heath. I cannot see Heath creating a Dark Ennis. Even the Joker in the Dark Knight had a spark of light, in his identification with Batman. Heath would be mindful of Adam Sutton when he created Ennis. I think sometimes people see a bit of themselves in what they project onto others, and it is to Brokeback Mountain's credit, that it is indeed great art, to inspire such diverse interpretation.
But what caused me to remember this thread and topic were the love stories of Jane Austen. Yeah, I'm outting myself as an incurable romantic, just by admitting I greatly react to her various books. But, so what?
You are not alone, I think. I can't get myself to stay awake through the novels, but I find myself watching those movies over and over and over.
Anyway, Persuasion was on Masterpiece Theater and there it was !!!. The two main characters could not openly admit their love for each other, for fear of rejection! And there are those recurring themes in her stories: coming to grips with the reality of love and then fear of not being loved back.
Gosh, is that Persuasion? Are you referring to the scene when the woman confronted the man about his meddling to drive apart her sister and her true love? It's been a while since I watched those movies. I loved that scene, I think, between Elizabeth and Darcy, in that rain storm, soaked and exposed, and speaking their deepest thoughts to each other, and when Darcy finally confessed his love. I will have to try reading the novels again. ::)
Of course, Ennis and Jack had had sex, and hooked up for a couple of months, but still, putting aside the modern liberties of behavior there, they still had the exact same problems of Jane Austen's lovers.
I dare say we can generalize further and say there is an universality of love and problems of love. It's what drove us all here, obsessed with what we saw in Brokeback Mountain, and obsessed with finding answers to questions that were never asked, much less answered.
In Austen's novels, there are happy endings whereby the lovers can finally rejoice and wallow in reassuring each other that they had always loved. I think, Andrew, in your noticing of the changes in Ennis in the Diner scene, those were the same epiphanies that had occurred in Austen's lovers, and so I think your theory is all the more supportable.
Only, there was no happy ending for our two heroes. AP was having none of the traditional loves, and moved to tragedy, leaving Ennis only the final epiphany of the shirts. Deprived of finally admitting love to the beloved, as had been given to others, he was left to stroking and whispering to the shirts, not the beloved one, himself. Fear of love, fear of admitting love, is, I think, standard, but has different endings.
Yeah. Happy endings. It's what drives us to fan fics, and Chrolli and other stories when true love find happiness.
Even when we know it's not real, we are happy to suspend our disbelieve, if only for a moment.
But the questions remain, what went through the mind of Ennis by the fire before SNIT, and as your reminded us, when he sat on the grassy hill, the lone figure watching this man that became a part of him, packing up the scene of the happiest moments in his entire life, ready to call an end to an idyllic summer?
Will we ever know?
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But the questions remain, what went through the mind of Ennis by the fire before SNIT, and as your reminded us, when he sat on the grassy hill, the lone figure watching this man that became a part of him, packing up the scene of the happiest moments in his entire life, ready to call an end to an idyllic summer?
Will we ever know?
These, of course, were the work of the screenplay writers. On DC forum, someone wrote to Diana Ossana about a question and she was kind enough to send him an answer. But she did point to the screenplay itself, which has something like a brief commentary, or directions, that may help with the answer, here. I don't have a screenplay, so, am no help there.
Andrew, you say you are of the school that Ennis didn't know "this thing" was love. Maybe he didn't know it cognitively (too fearful), but perhaps he was wrestling with feeling it? And it was far too strong to confront?
Also, if he did know he was in love, that would not necessarily undermine your Diner epiphany theory as, there, what he might have been discovering was that Jack could love him, for himself. Not for sex. He was, IMO, kind of suspicious about that being Jack's down-deep motive. So when Cassie said girls don't fall in love with fun, he just might have seen a glimpse of Jack's real love, and so have been freed to confront his own. VERY Jane Austen-y.
The question you've asked, quoted above, is probably worthy of its own thread, and it would probably mutate into the question of "What did Ennis know, and When did he know it?". There might be an old thread on that general subject, but I doubt it would be as specific as we might want. But, on any thread, I guess all we could ever do is unravel the puzzle by keeping at it, until we had a viable answer, which many might find close enough.
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These, of course, were the work of the screenplay writers. On DC forum, someone wrote to Diana Ossana about a question and she was kind enough to send him an answer. But she did point to the screenplay itself, which has something like a brief commentary, or directions, that may help with the answer, here. I don't have a screenplay, so, am no help there.
I dug out the old screen play and here is what it says.
SNIT:
EXT: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: CAMP: TENT: NIGHT: 1963:
The setting sun leaves the sky ablaze in orange and purple.
ENNIS sits by the fire, alone. Hears coyotes in the distance.
JACK is inside the tent.
ENNIS, pensive, glances over towards the tent. Decides.
Gets up.
Goes to the tent.
Interesting reading this again, I noticed the mention of the orange and purple sky, which is different from the movie, but foreshadows the dozy embrace. Also the mention of "pensive, glances over", which reminds me of the first scene when Ennis was leaning against the trailer, and stealing surreptitious glances over at Jack. What was he thinking then?
And here is the scene before the fight on the mountain.
EXT. BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: CAMP: MORNING: 1963:
Their tent is struck, camp gear piled high: they have packed to leave.
JACK is tightening his saddle. Looks up.
ENNIS sits up on a hill, alone.
JACK takes his lariat, heads up the hill towards ENNIS.
Again, it's interesting to note that the movie did not show Ennis helping Jack with packing up the gear, only the final moment as Ennis sat up there on the hill. It's difficult to say how long Ennis sat up there, from this description alone. If he didn't help Jack pack, then he could've been sitting there thinking for a long while. If he was just resting after helping with the gear, it might have been only for a short time, perhaps not long enough to get any sense of the parting of the ways. It's more poignant to think Jack came up the hill interrupting Ennis's train of thought, and led to the fight. It's also more likely, if Ennis had been exercising with the gear, that he forgot his own strength, knocking Jack over.
Although I like the movie's implication that Ennis sat there alone on the hill a long while, enough to make his thoughts more interesting, I can also see the reason for the short story's version of events. I think, artistically speaking, I prefer the movie simply for the view of Ennis on the hill - that tableau is a work of art, the way Heath played Ennis to the max, showing the pensive brooding Ennis, prompting the question, what's he thinking?
Andrew, you say you are of the school that Ennis didn't know "this thing" was love. Maybe he didn't know it cognitively (too fearful), but perhaps he was wrestling with feeling it? And it was far too strong to confront?
Also, if he did know he was in love, that would not necessarily undermine your Diner epiphany theory as, there, what he might have been discovering was that Jack could love him, for himself. Not for sex. He was, IMO, kind of suspicious about that being Jack's down-deep motive. So when Cassie said girls don't fall in love with fun, he just might have seen a glimpse of Jack's real love, and so have been freed to confront his own. VERY Jane Austen-y.
Yes, he was aware of the feelings alright, this thing with no reins. But he had no labels, no handles, no reference to what these feelings were. He thought they were just sex, just friends having a bit of fun. Jack knew better, he knew how bad it got when they were apart. What Jack didn't know was how bad it got for Ennis, too, when he was alone drinking beer after beer in the bar, ignoring everyone, and everyone leaving him alone, except Cassie.
I agree with you that the epiphany in the diner was not only about recognizing his own love for Jack, but also, a glimpse of a hope that perhaps, if Cassie could love him, that perhaps Jack too could love him, and that this thing they had for twenty years was more than just sex, more than just camping buddies jumping each other a few times a year. It is why I believe at that moment, and later when he sent that post card to Jack, he was ready to re-consider the sweet life, of building a cow and calf operation with Jack. :(
The question you've asked, quoted above, is probably worthy of its own thread, and it would probably mutate into the question of "What did Ennis know, and When did he know it?". There might be an old thread on that general subject, but I doubt it would be as specific as we might want. But, on any thread, I guess all we could ever do is unravel the puzzle by keeping at it, until we had a viable answer, which many might find close enough.
I don't know if I want to start a new thread, and re-open old PBS. Even now discussing this for a little bit, I feel being drawn again like in 'em early days.
The only reason why I came back to this thread, was the epiphany of the meaning of love is not always clear to everyone, so it is not always a fear of love that keeps people apart, but simply, the inability to love, as Ennis was, because he never knew it, and so was incapable of loving, even when confronted by love, from Jack and from Cassie.
That is perhaps the true core of the tragedy of Brokeback Mountain, that the man who could not love, when awoken to the power of it at the diner, find that the love of his life was snatched away. :_(
Okay, enough of that. I was just thinking out loud, wondering what was Ennis thinking. Thanks for all your comments, Tony. As always. :c) ^f^
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(t) :^^) :*( :P ::) :gnight: :h: :s: :f) :s) ^*() %^% <^( :clap: $) :m} :d: &**) (:* :cb: :8 (^) "s;" %&) %( #) {b}
...sorry, i just tought I'd add that... *o)
But no, I really do have something to say! :D
I really do believe that Ennis loved Jack and cared deeply for him, he just didnt know how to express and show it (perhaps because he had never been taught or shown the same kind of love). The tragedy of the story is, though, that Jack WAS a very open, loving person who always showed his true feelings and showed Ennis his love far more than ennis ever showed it to him. They were complet opposites, which made their love all the more difficult and complex.
Having said that, I do believe that both characters feared loving one another, although Ennis far moreso than Jack, purely because of their nature and personalities.
I'm writing this in my history class ^o so I should probably get back to my essay on The Stolen Generations now...
bye bye to all
xx
<^(
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I really do believe that Ennis loved Jack and cared deeply for him, he just didnt know how to express and show it (perhaps because he had never been taught or shown the same kind of love).
Aha! That's what I was trying to put together: Yes, Ennis was aware he was in love with Jack. But he had zero experience in safely showing love. We could reasonably assume that his father, who approved of the murder of Earl, frowned on any display of love as "sissy". Real men didn't love (?).
I don't, then, believe Ennis was "the man who could not love". His every choice spoke of love, from SNIT, to handling the babies when they were sick, to waiting so pitifully for the Reunion that day, to cracking up over Jack's complaints, to aching at Cassie's words. Ma Twist was a good judge of character. She saw the man who COULD love, and had loved....her son. I doubt anyone else showed up to visit the Twists over Jack's death.
Thanks, Mimi - he just didn't know how to show the depth of his love. Safely. Without fear of being the puppet of someone else who might not love him as much as he had loved.
His daughters, Cassie, Ma Twist, and Jack, were the ones who knew Ennis could love more than most people: he just had been battered into never showing that love easily, but they knew it was there.
Maybe his brother beat up on him all the time because he was a sensitive little boy. To survive that battering, he had had to learn to fight, yes, but also to bury deep within, the loving heart that so provoked an ugly world.
Come to think of it, maybe Old Man Twist had faced the same nightmare: "I know where Brokeback Mountain is...." . But, maybe he never survived the condemnation of love, and became abusive and withdrawn. He sure seemed to understand Ennis. And maybe hated him for never having caved in.
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Cowboys don't cry. "s;"
Ennis was the iconic cowboy, complete different from the rodeo that was Jack.
More than that, Ennis, while trapped behind the walls of his own and society's making, also wanted to love and be loved.
It is this desire that I believe helped him make the decide to get up, and to go to the tent at SNIT. It was not just sex, but to be held, to be desired, to be needed, wanted, and enjoyed. This thing with no reins was the key that unlocked the doorway in his wall.
Although Ennis had little experience with love or being loved, he was a quick study. From Cassie to Ma Twist, once he recognized and learned from sources of love, he was quick to do whatever it took to make it work. Unfortunately, it took him too long to recognize the good thing he had going with Jack. :(
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Great discussion here. Not much of import to add, except the meaning of “love” can take many, many, forms and expressions, just like “gay”. What one person may think of as love might not even register to another. Maybe this is one reason Ennis & Jack were able to stick it out so long, they had somewhat similar internal ideas of what “love” meant and they could feel that “vibration” from each other almost from the moment they first shook hands. Not identical for sure, but innately similar. Love at first sight, yup, we just won’t say a goddamn word about it.
Cowboys don't cry. "s;"
Ennis was the iconic cowboy, complete different from the rodeo that was Jack.
oh yeah, Crying . . .
You’ all certainly know this, but I’ll repeat it - Ennis is the big tough cowboy we see cry (or at least tear up) seven times in the movie (though only once in the SS).
LC: Ennis the iconic cowboy, yup - to which I’ll add - Ennis the LACONIC cowboy, huh? :)
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Great discussion here. Not much of import to add, except the meaning of “love” can take many, many, forms and expressions, just like “gay”. What one person may think of as love might not even register to another. Maybe this is one reason Ennis & Jack were able to stick it out so long, they had somewhat similar internal ideas of what “love” meant and they could feel that “vibration” from each other almost from the moment they first shook hands. Not identical for sure, but innately similar. Love at first sight, yup, we just won’t say a goddamn word about it.
Love at first sight....whether we recognize it as such or not? The same electricity shot through both Ennis and Jack when they shook hands, but only Jack recognized it while Ennis just thought it was his wrist watch wearing wrong.
oh yeah, Crying . . .
You’ all certainly know this, but I’ll repeat it - Ennis is the big tough cowboy we see cry (or at least tear up) seven times in the movie (though only once in the SS).
:s) Seven times, eh? Let's see...it's obviously easier counting from the end, 1. in front of the closet, 2. mentioning love to Junior, 3. in Jack's closet, 4, in the kitchen, 5. in the Diner, 6. talking about Earl and Rich, and 7. in the alley. Did I get 'em all right?
LC: Ennis the iconic cowboy, yup - to which I’ll add - Ennis the LACONIC cowboy, huh? :)
O0 Jackster. It's poignant that the iconic cowboy is only laconic, and all 'em tearing up moments are tears of deep emotions. Cowboys don't crying but they sure have strong feelings. Perhaps the stronger the cowboy physically, the stronger the feelings emotionally, eh? :c)
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:s) Seven times, eh? Let's see...it's obviously easier counting from the end, 1. in front of the closet, 2. mentioning love to Junior, 3. in Jack's closet, 4, in the kitchen, 5. in the Diner, 6. talking about Earl and Rich, and 7. in the alley. Did I get 'em all right?
Well LC we may have more than seven here. Going beginning to end here's my list:
1. alley
2. reunion campfire (Earl+Rich)
3. divorce scene
4. final confrontation
5. diner after Cassie (a maybe)
6. Jack's closet/Twist house (I make as one long event)
7. Jack I swear.
I didn't catch the Junior scene, I'll check it later tonight.
I'd sure agree w/ya on the cowboy stuff, and the handshake - Ennis coulda' felt it but didn't know whut it was.
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Gosh, how did I forget about the final confrontation. %&) Of course.
Yeah, the divorce scene, too. I guess I was just forgetting all the really unpleasant scenes. ::) ^*()
I count the kitchen and Jack's closet separately because the reasons for tear are different.
So the magic tearful number is nine. :t)
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I do believe also that Ennis was aware of his love for Jack,or at least,that what he feels for him was something deeper,greater and stronger than a mere friendship "enjoyed" with some sex.He called it "that thing",he was not willing nor able to show it with some caring and loving words,but he felt it and he knew it;if not,his life had been only a constant deny of a sweet life by Jack's side.No;the bottom line is that his whole life was an inner struggle between his feelings and his duties,what he must do according to society's rules and what he should do according to what he felt for another man.And for me,this is the main proof that he was aware of his love.
As regards to seeing him crying in the movie,I'd add another scene;after the night in the motel,when Jack is talking somehow about his feelings during these four years of separation and his wishes to see Ennis again,he says:-Swear to god, I didn't know we was goin' to get into this again.Yes, I did. I red-lined it all the way. I couldn't get here fast enough. What about you? ... Then,Ennis,only can answer:--Me? I don't know....As always,unable(or unwilling) to show too clearly what he had felt the four years in general and the hours he was waiting for Jack's arrival in particular.But I guess that his eyes are beginning to be full with tears.That's why Jack,who realises it or,at least,feels somehow Ennis reaction,says:-Old Brokeback got us good, don't it?. Just my two cents.
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Couldn't agree more with what you say here MPJ, to me that's the foundation for much of the movie, a man's struggle with himself and his view of himself.
. . . As regards to seeing him crying in the movie, I'd add another scene; after the night in the motel, when Ennis, only can answer:- -Me? I don't know...
Real good point. O0 I was just saying over in loreen's thread "I shouldn't a let you outta' my sight" that the way the screenplay truncated the motel scene was unfortunate (if understandable). The boys had to try and jam a lot of emotion into this short scene whereas in the SS Annie allows them some space to really develop their intimate personal interaction here together, when they are nude, lying together in bed.
^-^
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Couldn't agree more with what you say here MPJ, to me that's the foundation for much of the movie, a man's struggle with himself and his view of himself.
Real good point. O0 I was just saying over in loreen's thread "I shouldn't a let you outta' my sight" that the way the screenplay truncated the motel scene was unfortunate (if understandable). The boys had to try and jam a lot of emotion into this short scene whereas in the SS Annie allows them some space to really develop their intimate personal interaction here together, when they are nude, lying together in bed.
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Yeah I guess in the movie Heath brought out more facial expressions and body language to the enigma that was Ennis. He *didn't say much but he got his point across* (like the quote when Cassie said that to Alma Jr.)
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Couldn't agree more with what you say here MPJ, to me that's the foundation for much of the movie, a man's struggle with himself and his view of himself.
Real good point. O0 I was just saying over in loreen's thread "I shouldn't a let you outta' my sight" that the way the screenplay truncated the motel scene was unfortunate (if understandable). The boys had to try and jam a lot of emotion into this short scene whereas in the SS Annie allows them some space to really develop their intimate personal interaction here together, when they are nude, lying together in bed.
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:t) Jackster ¡ Yeah,I suppose that cinematographic language and,specially,moral limitations have a lot to do with this; in the SS everything is left to reader's imagination,even if the scene is described in all its natural roughness.Whereas in the movie,there're some walls one mustn't jump,in order not to surpassing censure's codes,f.e.;in this sense,both actors must show a wide range of emotions in a limited way.And bearing in mind that the Ennis of the s.s. is rather more demonstrative of his feelings than the one from the movie,I think these little tears in his eyes when he tries to remember his years without Jack,gets the place of a greater demonstration quite well.
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Cowboys don't cry. "s;"
Ennis was the iconic cowboy, complete different from the rodeo that was Jack.
I love the way you described jack as a rodeo - he was a rollercoaster of emotions, a glass overflowing with life, energy, and most of all love (especially for Ennis)
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I love the way you described jack as a rodeo - he was a rollercoaster of emotions, a glass overflowing with life, energy, and most of all love (especially for Ennis)
And I love the way you describe him too ¡ Yes,he was a rollercoaster,but mainly because facts made him change his first lively way of being,to make him little by little descend from the higher place he had in his youngest years. :c)
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To me the fear Ennis felt was his love for Jack and what it meant. It would have made him what he hated most, "queer". The whole Earl and Rich thing was a warning Ennis gave to Jack. Jack was making a proposition, Ennis had no intention of going along with. Ennis knew what queer was, what bashing was, what death was. He also knew of these dangers the first night he "took" Jack, and the second night he gave in to Jack. He knew it all but had and loved Jack nonetheless.
Ennis loved, he knew love, he loved his girls, he loved Alma. But loving Jack was counter to who he believed he was, but he was in love, and this man was who he desired. And Ennis was so much more with Jack than without him, he felt real love, knew the joy and sharing of sex, and in turn Ennis feared not Jack but the what Jack represented, because it made him in his mind what he learn to hate and fear. Jack was a shock to Ennis's belief system, and what he grew up to believe, and this all but faded away when he was with Jack. That's what was dangerous about loving Jack, and Ennis knew it.
Ennis could not be drawn into an alternate universe, a life style counter to what he was taught, an abstract idea of a "sweet life" with Jack that he couldn't believe in , but kept going back to him, for twenty years, love desire is a hell of thing to fight.
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It's so good to catch up with this thread. What a great discussion. O0
brandedandrew, that was beautifully put and I think such a good assessment of Ennis. :ghug:
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To me the fear Ennis felt was his love for Jack and what it meant. It would have made him what he hated most, "queer". The whole Earl and Rich thing was a warning Ennis gave to Jack. Jack was making a proposition, Ennis had no intention of going along with. Ennis knew what queer was, what bashing was, what death was. He also knew of these dangers the first night he "took" Jack, and the second night he gave in to Jack. He knew it all but had and loved Jack nonetheless.
Ennis loved, he knew love, he loved his girls, he loved Alma. But loving Jack was counter to who he believed he was, but he was in love, and this man was who he desired. And Ennis was so much more with Jack than without him, he felt real love, knew the joy and sharing of sex, and in turn Ennis feared not Jack but the what Jack represented, because it made him in his mind what he learn to hate and fear. Jack was a shock to Ennis's belief system, and what he grew up to believe, and this all but faded away when he was with Jack. That's what was dangerous about loving Jack, and Ennis knew it.
Ennis could not be drawn into an alternate universe, a life style counter to what he was taught, an abstract idea of a "sweet life" with Jack that he couldn't believe in , but kept going back to him, for twenty years, love desire is a hell of thing to fight.
I like very much the way you have described Ennis contradictions,Andrew ¡. Yes,you're awfully right;Ennis feared what Jack represented,the idea of love between men,because this immediately converted him in what he had hated all his life.He passed half his life denying the evidence,denying that he was in love with another man;but,at the same time,he knew for sure that this is just what he needed for being happy,for,simply,LIVING.I have said formerly that Ennis loved and hated Jack for what he made him feel and he hated himself for feeling it.Ennis=a living contradiction.
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I like very much the way you have described Ennis contradictions,Andrew ¡. Yes,you're awfully right;Ennis feared what Jack represented,the idea of love between men,because this immediately converted him in what he had hated all his life.He passed half his life denying the evidence,denying that he was in love with another man;but,at the same time,he knew for sure that this is just what he needed for being happy,for,simply,LIVING.I have said formerly that Ennis loved and hated Jack for what he made him feel and he hated himself for feeling it.Ennis=a living contradiction.
I like what you said. He certainly was.
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I like what you said. He certainly was.
:t) ¡ Yes,he was a contradiction,but due to his inner turmoil and struggle.I have never thought,however,that he was afraid of LOVE,in capital letters.As a matter of fact,he needed love because he had only found it in his mother,but this lasted too little and,moreover,never could fight completely against the bad influence of his father.What he feared Ennis was "this kind of love",what it's not the same than love in a general sense...
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:t) ¡ Yes,he was a contradiction,but due to his inner turmoil and struggle.I have never thought,however,that he was afraid of LOVE,in capital letters.As a matter of fact,he needed love because he had only found it in his mother,but this lasted too little and,moreover,never could fight completely against the bad influence of his father.What he feared Ennis was "this kind of love",what it's not the same than love in a general sense...
Very true!
Ennis wasn't incapable of love or commitment, in fact I would say that he could love a lot more than most ordinary people o his time, and even nowadays.
He adored his daughters, and did really love Alma, but it was always Jack he was meant to be with. But he forbid himself this because it scared him s**tless. He was especially horrified of the thought that he himself could love another man. This was the product of homophobic conditioning from his parents, namely his father
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Very true!
Ennis wasn't incapable of love or commitment, in fact I would say that he could love a lot more than most ordinary people o his time, and even nowadays.
He adored his daughters, and did really love Alma, but it was always Jack he was meant to be with. But he forbid himself this because it scared him s**tless. He was especially horrified of the thought that he himself could love another man. This was the product of homophobic conditioning from his parents, namely his father
Yes,that's right ¡ As almost everybody who has been lacked of love from his/her childhood,Ennis knew how to feel and give love.The problem was that the person he loved the most was somebody who,at the same,disturbed and made him hate himself the most too...Poor Ennis ¡ :_(
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yes exactly.
poor, poor, trapped ennis. It's true - he was a man trapped and controlled by his own homophobic conditioning. Just like that "rabbit trying to squeeze through a snake hole with a coyote on its tail" :_(
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yes exactly.
poor, poor, trapped ennis. It's true - he was a man trapped and controlled by his own homophobic conditioning. Just like that "rabbit trying to squeeze through a snake hole with a coyote on its tail" :_(
Interesting imagery, but I think a more applicable description is "the horse scared of its own shadow while being chained to a wall facing the sun." More than that, the horse would be drawn to what it was chained to.
Perhaps even more appropriate would be "Ennis, the thirsty shadow-fearing horse chained to a south facing water trough".
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Interesting imagery, but I think a more applicable description is "the horse scared of its own shadow while being chained to a wall facing the sun." More than that, the horse would be drawn to what it was chained to.
Perhaps even more appropriate would be "Ennis, the thirsty shadow-fearing horse chained to a south facing water trough".
I think all of your descriptions are very accurate and sage,as they described in few words who and how Ennis was ¡ :clap: :clap: :clap: Yours,Lance,means perfectly what was Ennis inner struggle and the feeling of attraction-repulsion to who he was and to what would have been the "solution" and,at the same time,the root of all his problems.Afraid and worried of being thirsty but afraid and worried to give the step to the water trough...
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A combination of different reasons made me think of this thread again, and how Ennis was afraid to love, not just homophobia, loving another man, but also loving anyone in general.
Jack was the key that opened his heart, to allow him to love. Without Jack, Ennis would have gone through life not knowing love, how to love.
His relationship with Alma and Cassie were all superficial, going through the motions, in and out of bed, doing his duty.
His relationship with his children were deeper, but even with them, he did not know how to love or to show them his love.
As already mentioned here and else where, Ennis had difficulty with love, and all through life, love was a stranger to him, except with Jack. It's probably why he never loved anyone else, why he would never consider himself gay. Loving another man was as alien to him as loving another woman.
If Jack lost Ennis, he might have recovered and moved on. But Ennis losing Jack, was the end of the world.
In any case, Ennis was lucky that he at least met Jack. Many unlucky people go through life never knowing love, and never realizing what they don't have, thinking as they go to their grave, that they knew love because they were married, or had sex, or whatever. It is often the fear of love that lead us to misunderstand love, and never have it.
I'd like to know what Ennis was thinking about that night before SNIT, sitting in front of the fire, while Jack waited. What thinking process led him to decide that Jack was the one he could trust, that this one shot thing with Jack won't change his life forever? And of course, it did indeed change his life forever. How did he know it was the kind of change that he could accept, for a life time?
So many questions...and so few answers. It's what gets me, and PBS.
I spent now, check the clock, more then one hour reading these old post about fear for love and I read this one from you Lance, a beautiful piece of art, a real Gem! :t) Lance!
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I spent now, check the clock, more then one hour reading these old post about fear for love and I read this one from you Lance, a beautiful piece of art, a real Gem! :t) Lance!
Great! You have find the appropriate thread for the Fight on Brokeback! I will try to read it this week-end.
Lance's posts are so often beautiful, enlightening and true. This one makes no exception! O0
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Glad y'all like it. :^^) :t) for kind words. I confess that once in a while I read the old posts to remind me what I learned here in this beautiful place. :c) ^f^
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Oops, FlowerChild, you were posting as I was typing. I see your point, that orientation was an issue and I can see the theory that it was
THE issue that paralyzed Ennis. But some part of me still says Ennis had chucked that out the door when he went to the tent the second night,
for love. He feared being seen as gay, or being gay, but IMO his love was too great for that to be the source of paralysis. He'd gotten past
a helluva lot when he came to kissing and loving on Jack. No repression there. No self-denial.
So have looked elsewhere. If Ennis had come to some terms with the relationship, and he had, then that would leave, then, the other fear that
his love was not returned at the same level. In "Limerance and Love", by Dr. Dorothy Gray, the issue of who loves whom more is central to
the development of love problems. Might have the title backwards-can't remember. And in the great love stories, all of them, doubt is what
causes paralysis. Even "The Sound of Music". "West Side Story". "Romeo and Juliet."
I know you have seen the fear of being seen as gay as central, but, FlowerChild, go with me a little further if you can, that what applies
to those great love stories must to some degree be equally present here. Fear of Love, itself.
is at the core of all problems. Fear of love comes from doubt in its being returned, at fear of losing one's own identity.
I love this post so much! What an interesting point of view that Tony gave us about the core of their fight before leaving Brokeback. The main paralysis was not being seen as gay, but it was this unexpected depth of their love that caused the paralysis. The fear of Ennis was to be less loved by Jack and that's what provoked his rage and the fight! (:*
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Thank you, Tony, for asking a really good question, yet again. And :t) LJN for your clear-sighted observation of Ennis and Jack. Discovering the two shirts for Ennis was monumental to Ennis for two reasons, IMO. You pointed out the one reason, that Ennis did not realize how much he was loved by Jack until that moment, and how faithful was Jack's love for him. I think the second reason why discovering the two shirts made a change in Ennis was the fact that he understood that Jack's Ma KNEW, and ACCEPTED them. For the first time in his life, Ennis felt accepted by someone who is not Jack, who has no reason to accept him. The combination of the two emotions, of being loved, and of being accepted, broke down the walls that kept him isolated for so long. Finally, Ennis understood that he was WORTHY of love and acceptance. All those years when he was hiding behind that fortress, he thought he was unworthy of being loved, of being accepted, as Adam Sutton pointed out in his book, and in his interview, that he hated himself for the feelings that society taught us were wrong. When he found those shirts, he realized, he FELT the love that Jack had preserved even after death, that Jack's Ma gave him as a gift out of love for her son, and he finally believed in his heart, that he was worthy, that he was good enough to be loved, to be accepted. He stood a little taller coming down those stairs. He walked a little lighter across that kitchen floor with the shirts cradled in his arm. Ennis was a new man with confidence, self-acceptance, self-respect, compared to the man who knelt in front of Jack saying, "You are the reason I'm like this, I am nothing, I am no where."
Ennis didn't think anyone, not even Jack could seriously love him, except for fun, until Cassie told him that love is not just about fun. Then finding the shirts was the evidence that convinced him, not mentally, but emotionally.
He asked Alma Jr because he wanted to make sure his daughter will not marry without love as he did, but that she would have someone who loves her, as he did. And looking out the window, when she replied that "Kurt loves me" Ennis was thinking "Jack loved me" and regretting all those times when he didn't get to say it. There was no question that he would go to her wedding. By that time, Ennis was living Brokeback Mountain, without regrets.
Thanks Tony, LJN. I love this topic.
(t) (t) O-M-G, I love this post so much!!! Lance, your analysis of Ennis's psychology is amazing!!! Poor Ennis, he thought all the time he was not worthy enough to be loved, if only Ennis had been loved during his childhood things would have turned so differently for our beautiful lovers! :_(
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(t) (t) O-M-G, I love this post so much!!! Lance, your analysis of Ennis's psychology is amazing!!! Poor Ennis, he thought all the time he was not worthy enough to be loved, if only Ennis had been loved during his childhood things would have turned so differently for our beautiful lovers! :_(
Thanks again for the kind words. :^^)
I've learned so much from this beautiful place...it is better to be loved for who you really are, than to be loved for who you pretend to be. When the chips are down, those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter.
I've learned something new from facebook friends...it's not enough to be tolerated; we deserve to be celebrated.
It is better to have loved authentically and lost, as Ennis had, than to love in pretense, and live a life of lies and falsehoods in misery. That's what I've learned from Living Brokeback. Be your authentic self, and expect to be celebrated. Don't waste time pretending, being tolerated, being treated anything less than what we all deserve. And from that comes the corollary that was a facebook friend's advice about dating: we don't date to find the One, but to find someone for whom we can BE the One. The former is a self-centered search for an ideal that may not exist. The latter is a self-less giving to the right person lucky enough to be the recipient of our very best. That's what happened between Ennis and Jack on Brokeback. They found friendship when none was expected. They gave to each other selflessly, and celebrated the other's uniqueness when others had ridiculed them. They fitted together like two gloves, one inside the other. The f#ckup rodeo extrovert and the reticent reliable ranch hand.
I am forever grateful for Brokeback Mountain and this forum. That's for sure. :c) ^f^
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So many wise words in this thread. My compliments!