Then there's Jack. Seemed like he was in pain and going along with it just to force Ennis to admit there was something between
them. Got banged around on another forum site, by the ladies, surprisingly, who said no--he LIKED it. Well then, couldn't he have had
some goofy, sheepish grin that said- hey, this ain't so bad, or some romantic dazed look, even if only briefly, in between the pounding of
his fist on the floor? Jake made it look--painful & so, why be doing it in the first place. He could IMO, done a little better
For me FNIT is well done and according to the ss spirit and what would happen to some young men in the same situation than them that night;I don´t find anything forced or confused-very clear,rather...-.As FNIT is the awakening of their sensations,SNIT is the awakening of their feelings;we can see more "prolegomena" as it belongs to a more thought-out,calm need of each other.
The problems arrive:A) With the motel scene.It must have been done more according to the raw sensuality of ss and,above all,it lacks the sharing of the cigarette and Jack´s asking to spend more days together-this is not sex,but one can imagine it happens...-and,in general,all the confessions they did in ss.It´d have been more demonstrative of the strong bond they had to each other and,somehow,more related with FNIT spirit.
I have not seen the word prolegomena in a while! What you said here about FNIT and SNIT is quite apt, especially with this word. :)Sorry,I don´t understand very well what you mean...I wanted to express that in SNIT there´re more affection signals that the mere sexual relief.And that this belongs to a greater expression of feelings that the FNIT, as they had could think more quietly about their need of each other and,specially in Ennis´case,realize which were these feelings.IMO.
I'd like to see a scene from the period when they were older but before the final break-up trip. It woul dbe good to see two "older " - late 30s, OMG! - men shown as still having and expressing a sexual attraction with the urgency of FNIT and some of the tenderness of SNIT, allied to the sort of ease that familiarity brings.
Sorry,I don´t understand very well what you mean...I wanted to express that in SNIT there´re more affection signals that the mere sexual relief.And that this belongs to a greater expression of feelings that the FNIT, as they had could think more quietly about their need of each other and,specially in Ennis´case,realize which were these feelings.IMO.
I still think the movie is perfect the way it is, but having lived Brokeback for a few weeks now, I can see why others would want more. But we can't have everything in life, can we?
Hmmm....I wonder should I give up? It does seem that Brokies have donned liturgical vestments, placed FNIT on an altar with votive
candles and are circling it, swinging incense. Never wanted the scene totally altered--just a few seconds---maybe Ennis looking away, dazed,
before going into the animal phase so brilliantly described as such by BabyTammy7. Just a little more there, and maybe more credibility to
the pawing at each other after squaring away. But the incense keeps wafting, and so will leave it alone.
Then turned to other possibilities and there got a few burps. Welshwitch restored my hopes for the British. I had thought they were
basically sexless, waiting around for another scandal with a cabinet member caught with some gal with boots and whips, so they could arch
an eyebrow, harrumph, and then get on with the day. But Welshwitch proposed a scene when Ennis and Jack were more mature and
comfortable with each other and this was something new, although difficult to picture. At any rate, I now know the English DO have------
sexuality and so, have prospects of reproducing. Thank-you, Welshwitch, for that, and thanks also to the others, who thought it over.
Please---keep trying. On another thread, someone brought up Ennis twitching an ear in the motel scene. Will settle for more
twitching ears, subtle variations, just about anything. There are scenes, especially towards the end, that I can't ever see being altered
in any way-especially from Jack's death on to the final scene. But with the sex scenes, still hold that we could have hoped for more-
not anything radical---just--a little more.
Lightnin Flat---am really sorry about tweaking the Brits, and that is sincere. I think you all are very far ahead of so many other people
and so maybe it's a case of teasing those that we admire. Won't do it again. In fact, have been a little off-the-wall in this forum and will
tone it down in all my posts, because I think highly of each of you, and need to consider that thinking, before posting, could go a long way.
Not only to not giving offense, but also to being less embarrassed by my own self when I get a little whacky. Again, the apology is
sincere-my sense of humor needs a little work or else it needs to go. Much love--Tony.
Wacky is good.
The Brits, as you call them, though they tend more to see themselves as English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, are uncomfortable TALKING about sex or watching its manifestations/enactment in real life or in screen. What they DO in private is rather more complicated, i think; the English, at least, are brilliant at giving an impression of personal restraint and public indignation, but it may be only an impression. I think some of us at least are also less censorious than a lot of Americans, certainly with regard to gay sex.
Well , I was thinking about the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma. Hot or not? It looked like traditional sex to me, until Ennis flips her over. Shows how much Ennis craved this type of sex I believe. I suppose he thought about Jack with these goings on. I wonder if she equated ( the way Ennis took her) ,with Jack after she saw them kiss. According to the SS she did not enjoy it. "This is why Ennis wants it this way", It's the way he does with Jack. As seemingly naive as she was, she had to figure this out. She now has to deal with not only the emotional trauma, but the sexual aspects as well. A place where she can't compete even if she wanted to. ..but she remained the "dutiful" wife for some time. Just a thought.Yeah,I suppose sex between Ennis and Alma was developing in a very traditional and even boring way,in a great part because I think Alma-even when she knew her husband´s affair-took it as a duty.This makes sense to why she didn´t say anything after she discovered Ennis and Jack kissing, and for a long time after,and why she kept on having sex with him quietly.She maybe thought somehow she could "recover" her husband by making what he liked;but I really believe that in her innest part of herself,she knew she couldn´t be the winner,neither in bed nor in others aspects of Ennis´life.
[...]Yes, thank you, Tony, for bringing up these insightful questions. I also wondered about their relationship. I don't see their roles in the traditional dom-sub pattern because I think they are both complex characters with different needs and issues. I agree that Ennis has trouble being affectionate not only with women but also with any other men. It is why Jack is the love of his life. Jack is the only outlet for all his passion. That's why the SNIT, he sat by the fire for so long, (and wasn't Jack wonderful, just waiting half-naked with a grin on his face) before going shyly with a hat in hand. If Jack did not open up Ennis, the man would have gone through life without passion in his relationships. Once he opened up, after the initial awkward/sublime kiss that transformed him, the rest of the scene was about how much he craved the touching, the coming together of two souls. He needed someone to chase away the loneliness of his childhood. No one else saw it or could do anything about it. Jack felt it the first time they met. Jack loved him for it. I think Jack is masculine and dominant in a normal relationship, as seen in his marriage, and even with the father-in-law. He put up with the abuse for a long time, until finally he put his foot down, and felt like it was orgasm the way he was breathing so hard. With Ennis, however, I think he was willing to submit, for Ennis' sake. But when Ennis needed it, he could be the top, like in SNIT, when Ennis became the little boy who needed to be held, to be loved. It's also why the scenes in the hotel room are always with Ennis cradled in Jack's arms. And the shirts are symbolic of that, too.
Makes me wonder who Ennis is really physically attracted to, and begs the question, can Ennis feel physically attracted or even sexually attracted to another man, which I think has it's own thread somewhere or has been discussed in many areas on the forum. imo, any woman he meets will never measure up to the one he loved and wanted sex with and that's Jack. He could never willingingly let Jack go, though he'd never speak it. Jack's love controlled him in ways he could not fully comphrehend.
Tony,
I love all your posts, but some things you say in this one intrigues me and had nagged at me for some time. Thank you for opening up this can of worms!! How did Ennis really percieve Jack? The "little darlin" certainly has connotations to me like Ennis sees Jack in sort of "feminine" context, the one on the bottom. Yet I feel that when Ennis looks at Jack, he sees a study in masculinity, at the same time. I can't see Ennis relating to those wonderful men who let their "feminine" side shine through. I feel it is part of the attraction to Jack, that Jack was "all man" , masculine like him. Of course there is nothing fem about Jack , but I keep getting the feeling that Ennis somehow percieves Jack as the one to be dominated but as you say, I think Jack prefers it that way. Perhaps role-playing is appropriate if both parties are comfortable with their respective "roles". I feel it's the case here. MO.
Well , I was thinking about the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma. Hot or not? It looked like traditional sex to me, until Ennis flips her over. Shows how much Ennis craved this type of sex I believe. I suppose he thought about Jack with these goings on. I wonder if she equated ( the way Ennis took her) ,with Jack after she saw them kiss. According to the SS she did not enjoy it. "This is why Ennis wants it this way", It's the way he does with Jack. As seemingly naive as she was, she had to figure this out. She now has to deal with not only the emotional trauma, but the sexual aspects as well. A place where she can't compete even if she wanted to. ..but she remained the "dutiful" wife for some time. Just a thought.
These have been some really well thought out and also FELT, posts, everybody using their gut instincts as well as reasoning.[...]
Ennis broke through any role-playing, out of sheer love, and that then they settled down to preferences (and we know what Jack liked) but with occasional variations. Tony.
To me, Ennis and Jack will always be equal, two shirts molded against one another . . .
Changing roles, Camp Tender (housewife) and Herder (provider). Seems either boy could do either one, and even though maybe they had a preference they were willing to switch roles when the occasion (and their buddy) required. A true partnership.
Well said LC.Jackster! <^( You are right! I don't know if the short story has this, but the wording, phrasing, and the delivery by Heath is perfect! I didn't notice it until you mentioned it! Switch!!! :8 ;)
I’ve always thought there was more being said here when, early on Jack gripes about sleeping with the sheep and Ennis responds (slightly abridged, brackets mine) . . .
ENNIS:
You wanna switch? I wouldn’t mind [sleepin’ out there.]
JACK:
Happy to switch, but give you warnin’ I can’t [cook] worth a damn.
ENNIS:
Can’t be no worse than me . . . .
Changing roles, Camp Tender (housewife) and Herder (provider). Seems either boy could do either one, and even though maybe they had a preference they were willing to switch roles when the occasion (and their buddy) required. A true partnership.
I thought it more out of Ennis's desire to please Jack. This is what I see as Ennis's concious or unconsious " courtship" of Jack. Ifeel he felt something was happening, but could'nt quite pinpoint what it was.Only the magnetic sparks that were somehow drawing him to Jack. By SNIT , his feelings were defined and magnified and this time HE was taking the inititive to do something about them. And Jack had not left the Mt, but was there waiting for him to fully embrace those feelings. He was very perceptive and read Ennis well. He had my admiration and my heart. i can see why Ennis fell for him.Thanks, aintfooling, for pointing out all the little things Ennis did for Jack. You are so right. Jack wasn't the only one who put an effort into the relationship. Shooting the Elk was probably against the rules, but Ennis did it for Jack. Sleeping out there was not fun, but he did it for Jack. He didn't eat soup, but he got it for Jack. I guess the difference between the two is that Jack actively did something to be with Ennis, seduction, manipulation, driving all those years and distances. But Ennis was the one who gave of himself to make the other "comfortable" as you said. This and along with someone else's post earlier, makes me that that Ennis played more of the feminine role, even though he was the top in FNIT. It is also why he was more devastated at the parting that first summer. Like it or not, guys get over these more easily and don't get physically sick. He was, as you said, in love, but didn't know it or want to admit it. I love those scenes when they were apart in the mountain, one above the other below, and they looked longingly at the other.
One thing for sure is that Jack was having serious problems with Aguirre's rules. Opens up to Ennis about the way he feels about it. Ennis hears { Jack is not happy, in fact, he's downright pissed} He traded, he fixed it for Jack. There are more of these gestures from Ennis throughout their time on Brokeback, leading up to FNIT. It is at the these times when Ennis showed compaasion for Jack. Never told Jack he tried to get soup , Jack is pissed about dinner, refusing to eat another bean, again, Ennis "fixes it" again by shooting the elk etc...
Not my intention to stereotype anyone here or jack or Ennis. My opinions are based upon my personal perception of the film. I see Ennis as a conflicted and complicated man.I am enlightened by others perspectives of him and his relation to Jack. To me "role-playing" is mindset. How one sees themself in that "role" determines how they relate to themself and others, including lovers. Wether Ennis "bottomed" is but a small notion in the big picture of the message of this film, but I'll just say that the mind plays a big part in sex of any gender. I always hear sex is better with someone you love. If this is the case, their lovemaking was excellent! My opinion. Thanks.
This is a interesting exchange.Thanks, manhattengirl, for another brilliant analysis. Jack has been the man chasing the Ennis the woman, and Randall was the affair. But he was also the one who brought up the cabin so he was used to be the one in charge, calling the shots. When Jack keeps going off to see Ennis, I'm not sure how he would feel about that. Then when Jack starts to get serious, about Lightning Flat, and all, he might just get nervous enough to call in his buddies to end it. I never liked him from the beginning, and I don't know if the short story or the script planned it that way.
IMO:
I find it fascinating how in order to understand a relationship between Jack and Ennis we put it in a context of submissive role and dominate role. Ennis because he is the strong silent type, the ideal man of the west. Jack, the more open of the two, talkative, friendly, the "buddy" type, compared to Ennis, would draw some to think of Ennis as being dominate, and Jack role as being submissive to him.
Yet underneath the surface one could see some subtleties of their relationship that might draw one to another conclusion on the dynamics of their relationship. We see in the first night how Ennis takes Jack, but how much of it was what Jack wanted to happen in just this way? And the way Jack waited for Ennis the second night, he knew Ennis would come back to him, Ennis did.
At end of that first summer, I've read post of how Jack seem almost non caring attitude that they were parting maybe forever, and I think this is a kind of bad rap, he did care, but Ennis plans were Ennis's plans, and that "one shot thing" was just that, for the time being. For Ennis emotional and physically the parting was too much to handle, he was in love, hurting, and repressed it.
Jack again after four years of separation reaches out again to Ennis, and Ennis sits by the window to wait for him. With safe guards Ennis needs, Jack returns every year after that the suitor, who returns to be with his love.
Ennis reassured from then on is content with his lover. Jack is patient, careful, accommodating and waits for Ennis to concede to his proposal to live together. Jack was who he was, not denying his needs, did go elsewhere. Then there's Randall, no matter how we feel about the introduction of this man into his life. How different it much have felt to be the the pursued, to be the one that was reached out for. And be the one to submit. I saw Randall as an the who would take the reins on that relationship, (if there was one).
Anyway I was just wondering if there was another way to look at this. This just my thoughts.
. . . . It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk.
Yeah, I've always liked that touch. [...]I love the movie focusing on the love that is a force of nature. Even so, having been in this discussion, I watched the movie paying attention to the sexual scenes more closely, and it seems to me that Ennis was seducing Jack as much as Jack was, but more passively, like washing naked in front of Jack, who by the way, WAS sneaking a peek (notice his eyelashes move just as his cigarette moved a bit). And notice the way he was sitting while eating dinner, not to mention the Hmmm appreciation in the middle of Jack taking a leak. Then he was always teasing Jack about the harmonica, and about rodeo cowboys being a bunch of f#@k ups, followed with that gorgeous grin. If he ain't flirting then I don't know what flirting is. In the end, the SNIT was about Ennis finally accepting what they did was okay, and be open to the love that Jack had to offer.
Man I love this, I do wish this type of intimate physical closeness was more graphic in the movie.
Thanks, manhattengirl, for another brilliant analysis. Jack has been the man chasing the Ennis the woman, and Randall was the affair. But he was also the one who brought up the cabin so he was used to be the one in charge, calling the shots. When Jack keeps going off to see Ennis, I'm not sure how he would feel about that. Then when Jack starts to get serious, about Lightning Flat, and all, he might just get nervous enough to call in his buddies to end it. I never liked him from the beginning, and I don't know if the short story or the script planned it that way.
By the way, I don't think Jack didn't care about parting that first summer. He just reacted to it differently. He stole Ennis' shirt! He went back the next summer. He was staring into Ennis with such intensity by the truck, hoping for Ennis to say something, to call off the engagement, but Ennis never did. Jack cried looking back at Ennis in the mirror. He didn't know if Ennis wanted him. He suffered, but planned on returning that summer. He also mentioned about working at Ligtning Flat that winter, hoping Ennis might want to visit. He put everything out there but Ennis didn't, couldn't return any of it.
Also, the subtle dynamics certainly points to Ennis being the bottom, with Jack calling all the shots. Ennis needs Jack so much physically that after the first night, he may well do whatever Jack wants. It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk. Just an observation. ;)
In reading your post, another moment crossed by mind, I'm wondering if you pick it up too. We're use to believing through out this story that Ennis, like it been stated in this thread may have been a "top", but only on the surface, and maybe we led to believe it, but underneath the surface more was going on.Yeah, your analysis is as usual, so brilliant. Thanks, Manhattangirl. I noticed Ennis' shyness and timidity right the way, but was puzzled about Jack's actions until watching it a few more times, and reading other's thoughts on the subject. I noticed Jack's peeking at Ennis in mirror, but never thought of the symbolism of shaving. Just thought that Jack wanted to look good when applying for the job. But silly me, he is working as a cowboy, the five o'clock shadow would probably add to the rugged good looks. No he was shaving for Ennis' benefit, as you said. I can understand how Ennis can be under Jack's control after giving up in SNIT. His way was all or nothing. I had sensed that. Jack also knew this and loved it about him. Jack needed someone who would love him totally unreservedly. Ennis needed someone to draw himself out of his own shell. They were made for each other. I noticed the body language in the trailer, too, but did not understand until your words made perfect sense of the way Ennis try to stay as far away from Jack as possible, by the window, while Jack stood a bit back of Ennis, to admire the view. ;)
In the beginning of the film when both were waiting for Aguirre, without words it was shown to us ever so slightly, whose influence would dominate this relationship. I may be wrong in this assessment, but hear me out.
I've always wonder why Ennis had that reaction to Jack the first time he sees him. He's timidly looks away, his head down, shuffling his feet, his hands in his pockets. These two men, were there for a job, only them standing out there, most men would speak, may even shake hands, introduce themselves, begin a conversation. Jack sensing Ennis shyness, steps away, this moment might have spark some attraction in Jack in some way.
Then Jack does the most masculine thing, he shaves, I mean with just water and a razor, how macho is that, but his checks Ennis out, and Ennis hands still in pocket sits quietly and alone, not to be to noticeable. In Aguirre office check out the body language and how each position themselves in the room, Jack stands in the middle of the floor, leg spread, upright, and Ennis stands to the side leaning against the wall. Ennis takes a quick glance at Jack when Aguirre is on the phone, but Jack take a good long look. Jack was going to have Ennis, the question was when, Ennis felt something but not sure what, but in his actions on Brokeback it was to please this man.
I don't know, In this film there is so much room for interpretation if you watch closely at first whose roles were what, at first glance it may look like one thing, but watching it again it may look like something else. Just a thought.
I totally agree with you that this movie is so great precisely because it has such layers of detail, different angles of interpretation. It is as real as it gets.
Both very interesting posts here MHG and LC. I would only add that It's as good as it gets. I agree, and also find this complex and alternating dom/sub – top/bot analysis to be unendingly fascinating. The SS and SP of course set up the basic dynamic here, but I find the acting and interaction here between Heath and Jake to be absolutely par excellence. I do not think the subtle exchanges of these roles would have come off with any other pair of contemporary male actors. Like the characters Ennis & Jack themselves, it seems there was actually something there between Heath & Jake. No not sexual necessarily, but a deeply emotional, maybe subconscious connection that made this pairing work in a truly magical way that comes right across the screen to us. Kismet. How lucky I feel to have had this come to pass in my lifetime.I can't imagine anyone who love the story and characters as much as they do, not sharing the same love as we do in this forum. I can understand why gay men often mistaken friendly emotional bonding with sexual attraction, because that's what we men do - we are sexual animals first. Women, on the other hand, are emotional first, and sexual after. Even being straight men, Heath and Jake must feel the same charge of emotions that we feel. Being great actors, I am certain they were aware of those feelings, and channeled them into their scenes. That first kiss, that reunion kiss, the SNIT, ... As you said, the movie is as real and as good as it gets.
Is it male/female or who has the power at that moment. FNIT did Ennis take it, or did Jack offer it. I doubt it was feminine wiles Jack possessed at that moment, or was it take me or I will take you, Ennis answered that question. Did Jack knew Ennis wanted it this way and did he concede at this moment this is how was it going to be from then on, or did SNIT change the dynamic, and Ennis submit to Jack? Is there roles? Are they interchangeable?
I think Ennis took it as Jack offering. Maybe in his dazed, drunken state he remembers telling Jack about his lack of " experience" and this is Jack giving him some. The opportunity was not lost. Jack is the initiator.I agree with you view on the FNIT, with Jack offering himself to Ennis, following Ennis' lead, who knew only the way he'd seen the way horses and sheep have done it. That comment about the coyote with balls the size of apples ain't just idle comment. Jack was smart enough to know that Ennis' first time wasn't about love, about talking. It was pure and simple sex.
[...]
Jack made no move to initiate a "throw down" on Ennis, tries to kiss him but, Ennis still resists, so instead ,imo let Ennis take the lead , any direction Ennis wanted to go, Jack was going too. Perhaps Ennis thought about this moment many times maybe not, but he did need no instruction books , got the job done and liked it. I feel it's what Jack and Ennis wanted at that point and it did'nt really matter who took who down, but I think Jack was glad he was Ennis's first real lover...by all means.
I know I'm long here , but I am so made curious by Ennis's train of thought the morning after.He is preparing to put some distance between them . He establishes to himself that he not "queer" to Jack of course, but perhaps it was'nt so much about how he felt about himself , but maybe he was also worried how Jack would percieve him after what happened during the night. Sure, he felt funny the next morning, but he was not so botherd that he felt the need to vacate the the tent right away , no %(, he woke up beside Jack sleeping peacefully, with a very satisfied look on his face!.) Ennis goes off to think about it and maybe even savor what happened during the course of the day.
When he finds Jack has come up to meet him, this must have been a good thing for him, Jack not only accepts what they'd done , but let Ennis know what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback. " It's nobody's business but ours" Perhaps it's what Ennis wanted to hear. It means Jack's does'nt hate him or think he's warped because of the agressiveness or anything.
This goes a long way in blowing Ennis's "one shot" reasoning out of the water. This statement goes further in convincing Ennis that he could explore this "thing" without judgements. SNIT is evidence of that. My fav scene in the whole movie ,but it's among many.
Instead of going back to tend the sheep that night, he finds himself sitting on a log contemplating going into to Jack again. Shows the effect FNIT with Jack had on Ennis. He had helped awaken in Ennis ,a part of himself he could'nt, and really did'nt want to deny any longer. Aguirre's rules? what rules? My opinion.
Hey, Lancecowboy---just saw your post and was fine until the last paragraph. Your posts keep getting better and better and haveHi, Tony, and jerasjr,
developed themes and reactions that I haven't seen before, so they are always good reading. But describing Jack as a "master manipulator",
I dunno----couldn't you soften that a little? He was seductive, yeah, but even if, from the first, he had hopes of something with Ennis,
isn't that too strong of a word? It conveys, at least to me, a determination to be sneaky and predatory and only for his own satisfaction.
A manipulator usually has a conscious, well-thought-out game plan and there is the element of arrogance and deceit. Yeah, Jack was
up to something-he had found the beginnings of love and fell into the ways of trying to make Ennis admit there was something on his side,
too. I guess am saying a manipulator is a villain, and this, Jack never was.
Am not splitting hairs-those words seemed a little harsh. Everything else you write is sensitive and detailed and shows that you love
our two heroes----any chance you could either develop it or soften it some?
Am headed for bed, so, if you do reply, I'll have to wait to see whether you re-think this. Again, some of your posts have really been
developing new insights and you are provoking the same from others. Give me a break on this, please--I found the words-difficult. Tony.
[...]
It made me realize that the master manipulator in the end, was manipulated by his own inability :^^)to change Ennis, and the man who strove so hard to be with integrity performing his duty, ended up failing miserably because he lied to the most important people in his life (including himself), about the most important part of his life.
Hey L. Cowboy,
If my understanding of Jack manipulating is correct, it is only in the sense of taking opportunities as they presented themselves. I understand /read you as saying that Jack's ears perked a little when he heard Ennis all but say he was a virgin, the statement about not having had the "oppurtunity" a code word imo for not had sex , and that little hmmmm = Jack assessing the situation. Knows Ennis is way to far gone to attend to the sheep. tries to invite/coax Ennis into the tent where it's warmer. I saw no coercison,force or sneaky manipulative actions on Jack's part. The bedroll was big enough. Jack was right about what would happen when the fire died down cuz Ennis was practically an icicle when he woke up "hammering" his teeth together! Jack is awake, perhaps thinking that maybe Ennis wants to join him, but is afraid of his feelins and being that close to Jack in a bedroll, well...there maybe ...shall I say "effects" in that close proximity.
But Ennis was also flirting with Jack as he did a number of times throughout their stay on Brokeback, and Jack knew Ennis had some feelings of a romantic nature for him. In this way, you could say Ennis is manipulating Jack. It's harmless opportunity and nothing more. Check out the looks Ennis gives in this scenes leading up to FNIT. Is this flirting or what? It's very subtle at times , yet it's there.
Why DID Jack have to coax Ennis out of the cold into he tent anyway? ? Perhaps he was afraid of what he felt might happen imo. Yeah, he's drunk, but asked Jack for an extra blanket. He is making a concious decision to stay outside the tent.
Jack had to initiate this, Ennis was not going to, but perhaps wanted to. This was Jack's opportunity to give Ennis just a little "prompting" , a mind to ultimately reach Ennis in the most intimate way possible. So far I've seen Jack do nothing wrong, nothing in a pre-meditated, evil, destructive way. He simply made the most out of what was presented to him by fate or Ennis himself. Perhaps he read an "offer" in what Ennis spoke of earlier. In any case, He took the risk of his gut feeling about Ennis. He was correct . Once Ennis became a WILLING participant, the walls came down. The words manipulation/manipulate certainly has connotations, but in this case, only in the context of "oppotunity". Something much deeper was happening between them. Jack, the master at making something out of nothing wanted to express his feeling and wanted Ennis to be the one to express them with.
Opportunity knocked, Jack answered ,and Ennis walked in....freely. ;D :c) My take.. :cr)
I think Ennis took it as Jack offering. Maybe in his dazed, drunken state he remembers telling Jack about his lack of " experience" and this is Jack giving him some. The opportunity was not lost. Jack is the initiator.IMO:
The last vestiges of Ennis's resistence was broken down by Jack's excellent seduction. Left Ennis defenseless, His " what're you doin?" He knows the answer before he asks it, Jack is leaving no doubt as to what he's doing. He's also saying what he wants too, which has been heard by more than one poster on another thread.
I feel Jack is keeping in mind that Ennis has'nt had this " opportunity" before. Ennis is like a *virgin*, but he knows Ennis has feelings for him that constitutes "more than friendship" for him. By the time Jack's belt buckle comes apart, Ennis has come to an understanding ,beyond a shadow of a doubt what was gonna happen. Jack made no move to initiate a "throw down" on Ennis, tries to kiss him but, Ennis still resists, so instead ,imo let Ennis take the lead , any direction Ennis wanted to go, Jack was going too. Perhaps Ennis thought about this moment many times maybe not, but he did need no instruction books , got the job done and liked it. I feel it's what Jack and Ennis wanted at that point and it did'nt really matter who took who down, but I think Jack was glad he was Ennis's first real lover...by all means.
I know I'm long here , but I am so made curious by Ennis's train of thought the morning after.He is preparing to put some distance between them . He establishes to himself that he not "queer" to Jack of course, but perhaps it was'nt so much about how he felt about himself , but maybe he was also worried how Jack would percieve him after what happened during the night. Sure, he felt funny the next morning, but he was not so botherd that he felt the need to vacate the the tent right away , no %(, he woke up beside Jack sleeping peacefully, with a very satisfied look on his face!.) Ennis goes off to think about it and maybe even savor what happened during the course of the day.
When he finds Jack has come up to meet him, this must have been a good thing for him, Jack not only accepts what they'd done , but let Ennis know what happens on Brokeback, stays on Brokeback. " It's nobody's business but ours" Perhaps it's what Ennis wanted to hear. It means Jack's does'nt hate him or think he's warped because of the agressiveness or anything.
This goes a long way in blowing Ennis's "one shot" reasoning out of the water. This statement goes further in convincing Ennis that he could explore this "thing" without judgements. SNIT is evidence of that. My fav scene in the whole movie ,but it's among many.
Instead of going back to tend the sheep that night, he finds himself sitting on a log contemplating going into to Jack again. Shows the effect FNIT with Jack had on Ennis. He had helped awaken in Ennis ,a part of himself he could'nt, and really did'nt want to deny any longer. Aguirre's rules? what rules? My opinion.
IMO:
"I'm really not that kind of girl" [...] "boys like you" remark he hits Jack with in the final confrontation.
Ennis could and would never deny himself Jack. After the FNIT, this man, and the sex is what he wanted, and will have again, but how could he reconcile himself with the idea of being with him, and not feeling he was "queer". This is totally an "Ennis Thing", Jack was caught up in the wake of his struggle. I mean, who was he telling this to, the man who's arms he's in later passionately kissing, or really to himself.
Just my take on it.
I guess in thinking about, maybe I have a simplistic attitude, but we were given a simple story with simple characters and that is where I am taking my cue from. To ascribe much more than was presented to us is to impose our own attitudes and foibles.
I guess in thinking about it, maybe I have a simplistic attitude, but we were given a simple story with simple characters and that is where I am taking my cue from. To ascribe much more than was presented to us is to impose our own attitudes and foibles.
At times among the Wolves, we talk about being on a journey, and how grateful we are for the companions that we have here. You have brought about a good discussion with many points of view and that is what we are here for to continue on the journey of understanding that Jack & Ennis have sent us on.I could not have said it better. It's nice to be on a journey with companions from here. Like Ennis and Jack, riding back to pasture after the sheep scattered in the ice storm. Even the harmonica sounded good, and our occasional disagreement serves to strength our understanding.
Ennis could and would never deny himself Jack. After the FNIT, this man, and the sex is what he wanted, and will have again, but how could he reconcile himself with the idea of being with him, and not feeling he was "queer". . . .
You're absolutely right here MHG. A basic theme of the story, as AP had Ennis lay it out in the motel scene:
"You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was_? I know I ain't.
I mean, here we both got wives and kids, right? I like doin it with women,
yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this. I never had no thoughts a doin
it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."
Here he is, just after having sex with this man, yet he still can't believe it. Then goes on to admit that his real fantasy the last four years has been Jack and having sex with Jack. Alma and the girls notwithstanding. I doesn't seem that other males enter into the picture, but Jack sure did the trick for him. Jack and only Jack, maybe this is why he could see himself as "not queer".
Yes, thank you, Tony, for bringing up these insightful questions. I also wondered about their relationship. I don't see their roles in the traditional dom-sub pattern because I think they are both complex characters with different needs and issues. I agree that Ennis has trouble being affectionate not only with women but also with any other men. It is why Jack is the love of his life. Jack is the only outlet for all his passion. That's why the SNIT, he sat by the fire for so long, (and wasn't Jack wonderful, just waiting half-naked with a grin on his face) before going shyly with a hat in hand. If Jack did not open up Ennis, the man would have gone through life without passion in his relationships. Once he opened up, after the initial awkward/sublime kiss that transformed him, the rest of the scene was about how much he craved the touching, the coming together of two souls. He needed someone to chase away the loneliness of his childhood. No one else saw it or could do anything about it. Jack felt it the first time they met. Jack loved him for it. I think Jack is masculine and dominant in a normal relationship, as seen in his marriage, and even with the father-in-law. He put up with the abuse for a long time, until finally he put his foot down, and felt like it was orgasm the way he was breathing so hard. With Ennis, however, I think he was willing to submit, for Ennis' sake. But when Ennis needed it, he could be the top, like in SNIT, when Ennis became the little boy who needed to be held, to be loved. It's also why the scenes in the hotel room are always with Ennis cradled in Jack's arms. And the shirts are symbolic of that, too.
Ennis is probably like most men, too uptight about their masculinity to be the bottom, but would enjoy it with Jack, if they don't talk about it or make a big case about it.
Just my two cents worth.
. . The reunion scene/motel one . . . . Jack's hair remains in place but Ennis? What in the world....?
This thread is hitting some important points, and expanding our own thoughts about our own conceptions, and that is important - there are no prevailing attitudes, but rather explorations into each others thoughts - it may not change our minds but we will consider other options...
OK---am back on my medication again, have taken off the pith helmet and am not patrolling the beaches. Please forgive my occasional
eccentricities.
[...] Hope everybody continues to break new ground, as these are very, very strong insights into this great love story. Myself, am taking
a deep breath (as aintfoolin suggested) and backing off, before am sent to my room for misbehaving. Tony.
In a post-BBM interview Heath remarked that he had "bedroom hair". Presumably meaning it always looks out of place, maybe's why he seems to prefer short crops. IMO I like the "bedroom" version, looks like somebody's been messin' it with his hands! ;) ;) O0 O0 You bet.
What a fascinating thread - I've just discovered it and I'm going through it, so forgive me for taking you back a little. Lancecowboy, I loved this post and I think you've hit the nail on the head in these parts I bolded, you describe it so beautifully.Hi, Keren, I am glad you found this thread. It's good for me to go back and see what I've written. Sometimes I react to the posts, from my gut, and not realize how much of myself I put out there. I also wish Ennis had the opportunity to speak the passage about not wanting any other man but think of Jack hundreds of times. It makes his love for Jack clearer and more defined. It would, IMO, also make Ennis' confusion appear more powerful. Anyone in that situation, and yet not able to return to Jack those constant little proposals and confessions of love, "can hardly stand it" "like this, always"...
I wouldn't change FNIT or SNIT. FNIT kept close to the ss and portrayed what happened exactly the way Annie Proulx has described it. And SNIT, although it wasn't in the ss, was perfect IMO. I thought their acting was wonderful, especially Heath was just amazing - you could feel his anxiety when he stepped in, he was so lost. Could hardly look Jack in the eye. And then that kiss seemed to have melt something in him, and from there it was just like you described - he craved the touching and totally surrendered himself to Jack. The expression on his face was amazing, beyond words. While FNIT was all about pent-up passion and sex, SNIT to me was all about love and feelings and surrender. I wouldn't change a thing about it.
I think your observations about Jack were very insightful, how he was willing to submit to Ennis but also knew when to take charge and take care of Ennis. Ennis was very masculine, but sometimes he was indeed like a little child and then Jack had to take the lead.
I wish the motel scene had stayed more faithful to the ss - they said such meaningful things there. Ennis admitting to fantasising about Jack all those years, and telling him how he almost threw up when they parted four years ago. This is something I would change, add to the conversation. But I adore the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm, and the way Jack nuzzles Ennis's hair. I'd like to see more of this tenderness when they were older, too.
Let me know if I'm off track here, but there was one thing that always bothered me.
In the motel scene when Jack confided to Ennis that he didn't think they would get back in this again, then said he " Oh yes I did, I redlined couldn't get there fast enough", he asked Ennis, "what about you", did Ennis lie or actually believe, when he said, "I don't know". That one line made me take pity on Ennis.
Every action he took when he saw Jack again ran contray to his words. Jack was barely out of the truck, words were hardly exchanged when Ennis slams against the wall and kisses so passionately. The look of possessiveness he had when looking at Jack, as they left Alma in the doorway. Laying in Jack's arms after making love, this was so right for him, this who he was and Jack was the only one that made him feel this way, he made love for real for the first time in four years.
The one thing I believe Ennis knew when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard was that they were going back to that again, and that he wanted to.
In the motel room Jack is *fishing* imo. He has just laid out his own life to Ennis since "63" when he last saw him. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. They are both in sham marriages with kids involved. IMO, Jack wants to know in light of Ennis's reaction to his arrival what Ennis;s story is. I believe he is asking Ennis how his life has gone in 4 years... and mine's screwed up ,how's yours? Jack has learned his lesson. Ennis's reaction? " I don't know" . I don't think he really did not know at this point. He loves Jack, but at the same time does'nt want to hurt Alma or his girls. Has a strong sense of respnsibility for them and certainly does'nt want to hurt Jack or loose him ever again.
Remember HE created this mess, and knows it now especially since Jack has returned., he made his bed and is now lying it it no doubt. Sees no way out without some one getting destroyed. Obviously he felt trapped . Alma made the decision for him by divorcing him. One obstacle is undone for them, but it is Ennis and his demons within that prove harder to convince.
Anyway, Jack laid one *slammin * kiss on Ennis in retrun. You just know he was feeling unspeakable joy over the unexpected reception he got from Ennis. The look in his eyes told the story. This is the reaction he came seeking...on a wing and and a prayer and alotta hope. Over the years he lost the hope * he did once* have.
For once I would have liked to hear Jack say , in response to Ennis's question: You got a better idea? Yeah Ennis, stop playing hide and seek with yourself and maybe we'll get somewhere. My take.
Let me know if I'm off track here, but there was one thing that always bothered me.
In the motel scene when Jack confided to Ennis that he didn't think they would get back in this again, then said he " Oh yes I did, I redlined couldn't get there fast enough", he asked Ennis, "what about you", did Ennis lie or actually believe, when he said, "I don't know". That one line made me take pity on Ennis.
Every action he took when he saw Jack again ran contray to his words. Jack was barely out of the truck, words were hardly exchanged when Ennis slams against the wall and kisses so passionately. The look of possessiveness he had when looking at Jack, as they left Alma in the doorway. Laying in Jack's arms after making love, this was so right for him, this who he was and Jack was the only one that made him feel this way, he made love for real for the first time in four years.
The one thing I believe Ennis knew when he wrote "you bet" on that postcard was that they were going back to that again, and that he wanted to.
In the motel room Jack is *fishing* imo. He has just laid out his own life to Ennis since "63" when he last saw him. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. They are both in sham marriages with kids involved. IMO, Jack wants to know in light of Ennis's reaction to his arrival what Ennis;s story is. I believe he is asking Ennis how his life has gone in 4 years... and mine's screwed up ,how's yours? Jack has learned his lesson. Ennis's reaction? " I don't know" . I don't think he really did not know at this point. He loves Jack, but at the same time does'nt want to hurt Alma or his girls. Has a strong sense of respnsibility for them and certainly does'nt want to hurt Jack or loose him ever again.
Remember HE created this mess, and knows it now especially since Jack has returned., he made his bed and is now lying it it no doubt. Sees no way out without some one getting destroyed. Obviously he felt trapped . Alma made the decision for him by divorcing him. One obstacle is undone for them, but it is Ennis and his demons within that prove harder to convince.
Anyway, Jack laid one *slammin * kiss on Ennis in retrun. You just know he was feeling unspeakable joy over the unexpected reception he got from Ennis. The look in his eyes told the story. This is the reaction he came seeking...on a wing and and a prayer and alotta hope. Over the years he lost the hope * he did once* have.
For once I would have liked to hear Jack say , in response to Ennis's question: You got a better idea? Yeah Ennis, stop playing hide and seek with yourself and maybe we'll get somewhere. My take.
Thanks for quoting Manhattengirl, aintfooling. I can't believe I missed it!
I will always remember that scene, after Jack asked Ennis, "how about you?" That question was so gentle yet so passionate after his own revelation of the last four years. And then when Ennis' responded with a non-commital "I don't know" with little stroking of his arm, Jack said those immortal words, "Brokeback got use good" and Ennis agreed with some more grunts and stroking. When Jack whispered "what are we going to do now?" And I can still hear Ennis' response, not just the "nothing we can do" but the intensity in the way he said, "I'm stuck here" ..."ain't got time for anything else except for making a living."
In a way, he was telling Jack that he feels the same as him, but he can not change no matter how much he wanted to. He was powerless, return to the same story about can't fix it so got to stand it.
And Jack, having experienced that amazing re-union kiss, and the sex ;) can't imagine doing anything but to stand it. He didn't expect to stand it for twenty years, but his love for Ennis was strong.
Yes, I notice how Jack became older and slouch more than Ennis, who stayed almost a young and vibrant cowboy, while Jack grew tired-looking, not just from his office job, but more likely from his losing hope with Ennis. When he finally stood up to Ennis and put his foot down, it came out all wrong because it was twenty years of resentment and frustration come exploding out. Ennis couldn't know all the hurt and disappointment, from the scene after the divorce, to the many times when Ennis couldn't get away. There was never enough time... If Jack had only waited a little longer, staying celibate for Ennis, no matter how bad it gets. :\'( They'd have their cow and calf operation in Lightning Flat, and a CW resort for city slickers like us to visit and learn their cowboy ways.
Lancecowboy, thanks for letting me off the hook for my eccentricities-that was very decent of you. On another thread, I went into personalHi, Tony, everything you said about being decent, being accepted, exposing a little of ourselves in this forum through our rambling, I have been there, done that, guilty as charged. And I am always amazed and grateful each and every time I find someone from this forum who is as you said, decent, accepting, and warm in their embrace of my eccentricities and rambling. I can only do what I treasure so much, in the little bit that I can. I don't know how to related to the stories that you tell, because I have had no experience in those situations. I hope you will continue to feel that you are welcome to post your thoughts and feelings. And no worries, mate, when the hurts bust loose, just let the words flow with the tears. Someone will catch them and make sense of them. Just don't expect them to be the way you want them. Sometimes, life's journey bring us unexpected gifts. We might miss these if we keep looking for only the gifts that we want.
troubles, which a few of you may have read and, here, I would like to explain myself, cover some of that again, and then return to the topic.
[...]
Brokies, please forgive this post---please. But we bring to this forum who we are.
[...]
I have hoped you guys would accept me and so far, you have. If this rambling post undermines that, oh well.....
We are who we are. I will try to stay directly on topic, from here on-just, sometimes, the hurts bust loose. Tony.
Lancecowboy, thanks for the warm hugs--they were needed. I might add, with reference to your speaking of your own hurts, from time-to-Hi, Tony, thanks for the kind words. I never thought in terms of personal growth and accelerating ability to communicate. However, I appreciate your observation because friends are like mirrors, and you are showing me something that I needed to see. I feel that the last two weeks in this forum has definitely helped me see the movie, and myself in a much clearer light. Perhaps that is the reason for the change in me. I knew the movie was life-changing. I am glad that what I feel within is beginning to take shape. :ghug: :^^) Everyone here in EnnisJack is responsible for all the transformation that has happened to me in the past couple weeks.
time, have noticed a lot of personal growth in you since your first posts and also accelerating ability to communicate-keep going strong, friend.
But you're still not getting the Justin Timberlake morph pill from me (wink,wink)!
Well, anyway, keren-b says we are doing well here and that's always good news from a moderator. I wonder if I would be going astray by
bringing up the question of Ennis' sex drive. Oh, yeah, he gets it on (tousled hair as evidence) but remember Jack's complaint? "I'm not like
you, Ennis, I can't survive off of a few high-altitude @%!!!!*'s a year!"
Does this mean Ennis has a low sex drive, or that he has a limited need for male-to-male sex, or could it mean he likes sex with Jack but
the relationship of love, even at long distance, is what keeps him going? Is the answer in the can't-accept-he's-gay majority opinion, or is
there something more this is telling us? Any chance that love comes first, he likes the sex, but b asically uses it to keep Jack happy?
Or as Jack puts it, to keep him on a leash? In other words, I'll keep having sex with you, but what I really want is love, even if from a
distance?
Anybody?
What is Ennis views on sex? IMO: We kind got clues on that. He said to Alma , "if you don't want to have any more of my kids I'd be happy to leave you alone." He said to Cassie, "I guess I wasn't much fun anyways". He said to Jack "All those things I don't know, could get you killed if I ever come to know them".Right, his libido is under control, like his other emotions, all wound up tight inside. He let it out in one passionate moment, or in a angry fight. He loved Jack, that is for certain. From the short story passage, he also fantasized about their sex. But he is more in control, looking to rein it in.
Ennis is complicated, yes, but can we draw anything from what he says and how he acts towards the three people that are close in his life, and from that know who he really is?
Just a thought.
Right, his libido is under control, like his other emotions, all wound up tight inside. He let it out in one passionate moment, or in a angry fight. He loved Jack, that is for certain. From the short story passage, he also fantasized about their sex. But he is more in control, looking to rein it in.
Jack, on the other hand, is the impulsive one who always act on his feelings. I don't think it is a matter of their libido, but how they express it. When Jack told Ennis, in their last scene, that sometimes he missed him so much, that I can hardly stand it. You have NO idea! That's when Ennis visibly broke down, unfortunately just as Jack turned his back. Ennis felt just as much, but kept it in. The bubbling excitement during their reunion is a reflection of what he felt, needed from Jack. Even Jack was surprised at the intensity.
Isn't that just Ennis, Look at his reaction to situations, violence, passion, and all controlled. Could this be what draws Jack to him? The reunion, the motel, four years of pent-up need, and to have Jack again the one person who understood him. 63' wasn't just a "summer thing".
tpe, the idea that discussing changing the sex scenes would challenge what the writers and directors sought to portray, is baffling, to me.
Mainly because they left for us sufficient vagueness to challenge us to be more than an audience, but to enter into the experience
ourselves-in other words THEY were not definitive and maybe that was a deliberate gift from them. Heath Ledger said he hoped the film
raised more questions than it answered. Meaning, we should ask questions.
In most cases, there's the screenplay, the director's concept, and the actor's interpretations and that's all you get- take it or leave it.
But part of BBM being a great work of art is that- they let us come INTO the film, ourselves, thereby greatly expanding the usual formula.
Ang Lee and the screenplay writers chose to have actions that often defied immediate explanations. The actors followed through, with
their own playing to contradictions. I really believe they gave us a GIFT---saying, don't just watch this, but come into this.
And we did. And we have post-BBM syndrome from that, maybe, because we took them up on it. At any rate, this thread isn't challenging
the film so much as taking them up on their offer- to enter the film itself and to ask questions. They gave us a gift, tpe, and we are still
unwrapping it.
By the way, welcome back from the gathering in Maryland---your posts were missed. But I hope all of you moderators will continue to let
us explore. In another forum, they actually shut down and locked a thread because it was active and provoking many opinions (the subject
was-can you be masculine and gay). Talk about an irony-BBM was meant to let us be free, and that forum shut down--freedom of thought.
Here, the moderators have been tolerant and I hope that will ever be the case. We missed you tpe--again-welcome back!!!!
I might suggest that the sex scenes were vague and unformed because our boys were vague and unformed in regards to each other at that moment in time. Initial sexual encounters are not transcendental (unless you are terrifiacally lucky), and I might say that as time passed they did become more intimate, caring and satisfactory as the boys came to know each other in an intimaate and caring way. And those scenes can be the product of our imagination.
THEY'VE LANDED!!!! THE GAY BOMB HAS BEEN USED!!!! Saw it on t.v.---they have war helmets, skin-tight uniforms!!! They are doing
ritual groin-to-groin bumping, bending over in lewd poses, fanny-patting, talking about dominating, tight ends, and are even going to show
diagrams of penetration!!!!
never mind. sunday night football.
Manhattengirl, thank you for answering by extending the issue of Ennis' sexuality, his sex drive, to the two women in his life. To get
to some understanding of him and Jack, we really do have to look at Alma and Cassie. IMO, despite the scene where Alma is flipped over
and grimaces, she seemed to be expecting some really good lovin' of the usual kind, which suggests Ennis was a good lover. He certainly
was sensual with her in the earlier part of those scenes and she was definitely aroused. I"ve always thought he flipped her over because
she touched his raw nerve-talking about his loneliness. She traded him for a wimp and, looks to me, like she always regretted that part
of the trade-off.
As far as Cassie, everybody repeats her saying "girls don't fall in love with fun". But that was in response to Ennis saying he wasn't much
fun, along the lines of conversation abilities. Remember how provocative and sensual she was, getting Ennis to rub her feet (and looks to me
like he did a good job of it). Cassie does not seem to be someone who would accept a wimpy lover, and, once again, it looks like Ennis could
satisfy a woman very, very well, to the point they never forgot him.
So then, to Jack. Clearly, Jack is extremely sensual in nature, and Ennis---satisfied HIM, (sorry, aintfoolin-still think that was in a variety
of ways), so ---he had a sex drive and ability.
Manhattengirl, could we make that the starting point, or not? And if so, how could he be satisfied with twice a year with Jack? His
greatest love? Again, am I out of line by suggesting the sex was good between them, but the defining problem was that Ennis wanted
love much more than he wanted sex? Because he was a lusty dude, loved Jack above all others, and yet internalized this affair, keeping
Jack with him even when separated (which was most of the time). Was the tragedy the imbalance? Tony.
Tony,
Your're right. Ennis is lovable, the women in his life shows us that he was capable of being loved, and Alma and Cassie endured great pain because of their love for him. These two woman openly and honestly loved Ennis, and Ennis tried to be what each woman needed, it wasn't' their fault Ennis was who he was. There was no fault on Ennis's part, how could it be, he was who he was, he tried to play by rules taught to him. Their need was far beyond what Ennis could fulfill, and both woman never got past their own expectation to even scracth the surface of who this man was.
His attachment to Jack, the love and the need was natural, and part of him, how it must have felt to finally connect with someone in ways he never did with anyone else. But too bad for Jack, Ennis's environment is what made him, the little "field trip" his father took him on was the nail in the coffin of Ennis's trust in his feeling, and the ability to develop who he was. Sure he was able to go long period of time without seeing Jack, with the belief that this is the only way he could protect the most important thing in his life. Ennis sacrifice his needs and who he was in order to keep what he loved most , Jack.
So Tony, this is my take I hope you understood what I'm saying, and I hope I'm not sounding feeble, I know it's kind of long, what you said is on target, Ennis sacrifice his entire life to protect himself and Jack, and it was based entirely on love, and with some kind of bargin with the demons that haunted him, he could not live his life with his Jack, or risk losing what he did have, but settled to be with him every once in a while out in the middle of no where.
Was that an imbalance or a trade off?
THEY'VE LANDED!!!! THE GAY BOMB HAS BEEN USED!!!! Saw it on t.v.---they have war helmets, skin-tight uniforms!!! They are doing
ritual groin-to-groin bumping, bending over in lewd poses, fanny-patting, talking about dominating, tight ends, and are even going to show
diagrams of penetration!!!!
never mind. sunday night football.
Manhattengirl, thank you for answering by extending the issue of Ennis' sexuality, his sex drive, to the two women in his life. To get
to some understanding of him and Jack, we really do have to look at Alma and Cassie. IMO, despite the scene where Alma is flipped over
and grimaces, she seemed to be expecting some really good lovin' of the usual kind, which suggests Ennis was a good lover. He certainly
was sensual with her in the earlier part of those scenes and she was definitely aroused. I"ve always thought he flipped her over because
she touched his raw nerve-talking about his loneliness. She traded him for a wimp and, looks to me, like she always regretted that part
of the trade-off.
As far as Cassie, everybody repeats her saying "girls don't fall in love with fun". But that was in response to Ennis saying he wasn't much
fun, along the lines of conversation abilities. Remember how provocative and sensual she was, getting Ennis to rub her feet (and looks to me
like he did a good job of it). Cassie does not seem to be someone who would accept a wimpy lover, and, once again, it looks like Ennis could
satisfy a woman very, very well, to the point they never forgot him.
So then, to Jack. Clearly, Jack is extremely sensual in nature, and Ennis---satisfied HIM, (sorry, aintfoolin-still think that was in a variety
of ways), so ---he had a sex drive and ability.
Manhattengirl, could we make that the starting point, or not? And if so, how could he be satisfied with twice a year with Jack? His
greatest love? Again, am I out of line by suggesting the sex was good between them, but the defining problem was that Ennis wanted
love much more than he wanted sex? Because he was a lusty dude, loved Jack above all others, and yet internalized this affair, keeping
Jack with him even when separated (which was most of the time). Was the tragedy the imbalance? Tony.
But nobody is really tackling, dead-on, how Ennis could be content with two boingings a year. Which was Jack's biggest complaint.
Maybe am the only one really puzzled so it's unfair to stay there. Young hearts, please run free and dump this question and go where
your instincts say to go. Isn't that big of a deal, anyway- just wondered what you thought, that's all. Tony.
Was he content? There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year. He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him. Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack. Now that's a balancing act.
my 2 cents.
Was he content? There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year. He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him. Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack. Now that's a balancing act.
my 2 cents.
Was he content? There was no contentment when he collapse in Jack's arms, only the pain of Jack's misunderstanding of the reasons for the couple of "high altitude f#@ks" once or twice a year. He had nothing, and all he had was Jack, and Jack wished he could quit him. Ennis was trying to hold to a perceive conventional life, and his need for Jack. Now that's a balancing act.
my 2 cents.
Ennis tried to compartmentalize everything. He was good at it up to the point of dealing with the love he had for Jack. Though he tried to keep everything in order, his life was turned upside down when it came to putting this love affair in the "right place".
He found the scales tipping more and more toward Jack and the "thing" he had for him. He could'nt tie this one up in a nice tidy little package to be brought out only when he wanted it to. I feel his love for Jack possesed him to the point where his devotion was out of control. It was the one thing he could not control, even on a daily basis.
Jack was right up there with what Ennis treasured the most. The love of his little girls and his horses. He was his "little darlin" and in this context had a protective feel to it. You are absolutly right MG and Tpe, that Ennis was not content, not really. IMO, the more he tried to keep his feelings for Jack "in their place" ( it's little "compartment") the more he realized that this was something way beyond what he could master. He needed this like flowers need rain and sunshine.
This "balancing act" was doing damage to the relationship for there was the battle going on within it. Jack explined it to him and did'nt minced words in the confrontation scene, telling Ennis that he "was not him". No doubt the sex was good, but Jack wanted more, a commitment from Ennis and "proof" that this wasn't just a game being played , that he wasn't being played along with it. What is sex really without the expressed truth of the act. He needed to know from Ennis that his efforts and the giving of himself, MEANT something.
His statement " I wish I knew how to quit you" is testament to how deeply Jack's feelings went, though at this point frustration had most definitly set in. His feelings were clearly define in how he felt about Ennis, but he was at the end of his rope as far as understanding why what was so obvious to him was still was still being weighed out and rationed through this couple of meetings a year. Getting Ennis to "give up the fight" was proving to be futile and pushed him into the arms of Randall and other men, but it was Ennis who he wanted the most. Jack wished he knew how to solve this problem rather than "quit". Finally he lays Ennis bear with words, and Ennis's real truths were exposed. He too, with all the denials finally confesses that he couldn't stand it any more either. I am reminded of the passage in the book The old man and the Sea. " To the end ,I grapple with thee". My thoughts.
Aintfoolin, guess it's just you and me really, when it comes to Ennis' sexuality as a primary topic. Your post was the best answer I couldHey, Tony, I'd like a shot of whiskey in my coffee. ;) Irish coffee is one of my favorite.
want and was so alert and careful, would bet you'd just had your second coffee.
[...]
Lance-no huggy-wugs. A shot of whiskey and a snarl at an evil world would do better for your mood. Tony.
Aintfoolin, Love what you wrote, in any relationship there's a point where no matter how painful, you have look at it honestly. Your take on Jack is beautiful, he did need that "proof of love".Yeah, I second that. :clap: Ennis was deeply in love with Jack, but the wall built by his fear was high. I don't think he consciously compartmentalize his world, as others smarter and more sophisticated may do. Ennis simply had walls that block out parts of himself.
Tony- I just call it as I see it. From New York with love <^(
Ennis tried to compartmentalize everything. He was good at it up to the point of dealing with the love he had for Jack. Though he tried to keep everything in order, his life was turned upside down when it came to putting this love affair in the "right place".
He found the scales tipping more and more toward Jack and the "thing" he had for him. He could'nt tie this one up in a nice tidy little package to be brought out only when he wanted it to. I feel his love for Jack possesed him to the point where his devotion was out of control. It was the one thing he could not control, even on a daily basis.
Jack was right up there with what Ennis treasured the most. The love of his little girls and his horses. He was his "little darlin" and in this context had a protective feel to it. You are absolutly right MG and Tpe, that Ennis was not content, not really. IMO, the more he tried to keep his feelings for Jack "in their place" ( it's little "compartment") the more he realized that this was something way beyond what he could master. He needed this like flowers need rain and sunshine.
This "balancing act" was doing damage to the relationship for there was the battle going on within it. Jack explined it to him and did'nt minced words in the confrontation scene, telling Ennis that he "was not him". No doubt the sex was good, but Jack wanted more, a commitment from Ennis and "proof" that this wasn't just a game being played , that he wasn't being played along with it. What is sex really without the expressed truth of the act. He needed to know from Ennis that his efforts and the giving of himself, MEANT something.
His statement " I wish I knew how to quit you" is testament to how deeply Jack's feelings went, though at this point frustration had most definitly set in. His feelings were clearly define in how he felt about Ennis, but he was at the end of his rope as far as understanding why what was so obvious to him was still was still being weighed out and rationed through this couple of meetings a year. Getting Ennis to "give up the fight" was proving to be futile and pushed him into the arms of Randall and other men, but it was Ennis who he wanted the most. Jack wished he knew how to solve this problem rather than "quit". Finally he lays Ennis bear with words, and Ennis's real truths were exposed. He too, with all the denials finally confesses that he couldn't stand it any more either. I am reminded of the passage in the book The old man and the Sea. " To the end ,I grapple with thee". My thoughts.
Tpe has brought out, again, the balancing act for Ennis or, the equilibrium. But what was that balancing act? IMO, it is simplistic and
shallow to write it off to a repressed gay trying to think of himself as straight and also avoiding hassle from the homophobic culture, while
still having an affair on the side.
Ennis HAD come to terms with his need for Jack, which included the sexual, but which was so much more--companionship, being
completely accepted, as he was, by one other human being. As for his being in the closet, bull crap---he had a practical understanding
he couldn't change the world as it was out there, so he was discreet. That he had come to terms with his sexuality with Jack is very
evident in his patient, extremely mature, and almost casual hearing-out of Jack's father's words: "Brokeback Mountain--I know where
that is.." Read that-- I know what that is and about you and my son. Ennis doesn't cover up or protest at the coded, telegraphed
words from Twist, Sr.,---but calmly and TOLERANTLY accepts them. This, then, is a man who isn't ashamed. In turmoil, yes, but never
ashamed.
Maybe it's not a question, then of a balancing act. Maybe it's----paralysis. Every option blocked off. Couldn't leave his children just
yet. Had to earn a living where he was. And no matter what reassurances Jack gave, he never could trust Jack completely, with his
heart---remember, it was Jack that seemed to blow off that first summer as a fling, and Ennis who went to brood on the hill, desolate.
Jack sent mixed messages. And then again, how much of what Jack wanted was sex, rather than a love that could never die? Which was
what Ennis needed, and he didn't know, until too late, that it was fully there.
So, maybe--paralysis, which is debilitating. Jack had gone on to be successful, financially, and had a larger social life-Jack wasn't
paralyzed-he was going all over the place. But notice what Ennis says in the confrontation scene---it's because of you I'm like this--
(and he doesn't mean--gay). He says- he ain't nobody, he's got nothing- all because of Jack. Hell of an accusation. Didn't say
anything about sex. Said everything about personal decline and, if you will,---paralysis.
Maybe then, balancing act covers a lot and is useful. But paralysis, inability to make a move--too much risk, covers a lot more.
Sometimes I wish people who love both of these heroes, would back off and give Ennis more of a break. Not saying he isn't loved-
but it's like everybody has an agenda that it's all Ennis fault- he wouldn't join the gay liberation movement and move to San Francisco
with Jack, there to be totally free. Give him a break. Maybe he was more advanced than given credit for.
Oh, yeah-aintfooling-am picketting your house through cyberspace with my sign: "Ennis would too bottom!" If the neighbors are
annoyed-will stop. Tony.
[...]
Ennis HAD come to terms with his need for Jack, which included the sexual, but which was so much more--companionship, being
completely accepted, as he was, by one other human being. As for his being in the closet, bull crap---he had a practical understanding
he couldn't change the world as it was out there, so he was discreet. That he had come to terms with his sexuality with Jack is very
evident in his patient, extremely mature, and almost casual hearing-out of Jack's father's words: "Brokeback Mountain--I know where
that is.." Read that-- I know what that is and about you and my son. Ennis doesn't cover up or protest at the coded, telegraphed
words from Twist, Sr.,---but calmly and TOLERANTLY accepts them. This, then, is a man who isn't ashamed. In turmoil, yes, but never
ashamed.
[...]
Jack had gone on to be successful, financially, and had a larger social life-Jack wasn't
paralyzed-he was going all over the place. But notice what Ennis says in the confrontation scene---it's because of you I'm like this--
(and he doesn't mean--gay). He says- he ain't nobody, he's got nothing- all because of Jack. Hell of an accusation. Didn't say
anything about sex. Said everything about personal decline and, if you will,---paralysis.
[...]
Sometimes I wish people who love both of these heroes, would back off and give Ennis more of a break. Not saying he isn't loved-
but it's like everybody has an agenda that it's all Ennis fault- he wouldn't join the gay liberation movement and move to San Francisco
with Jack, there to be totally free. Give him a break. Maybe he was more advanced than given credit for.
Oh, yeah-aintfooling-am picketting your house through cyberspace with my sign: "Ennis would too bottom!" If the neighbors are
annoyed-will stop. Tony.
It could be very well be termed paralysis -- or partial paralysis, at least. In the sex scenes, we do see a certain indecisiveness, followed by forcefulness -- as if the burden was temporarily lifted.
The image that comes to mind here is the SNIT, where we see Ennis almost motionless, while Jack does his will. He is on the verge of clamming up, and keeps his eyes shut, as if he is afraid of what he will see. Still, he does not actively resist, and therefore jack takes this as a kind of encouragement.
So one can see it at that, although one can draw a 1 to 1 correlation with the concept of equilibrium.
I disagree with your assessment that Jack had gone on to be successful, financially or other wise. Jack felt, rightly or wrongly, that he would always be considered the hanger-on, the one who was the f#@kup who couldn't make it in the rodeo, and married rich - the term gold-digger may not apply, but it sure feels like it to Jack. If he ever forgets it, his father-in-law would be there to remind him. Part of the scene at the Thanksgiving dinner was, in a way, Jack's liberation, to stand up, to rise up, and finally say, I raised a good son, I was a good husband to your daughter (even though I was unfaithful to her, but that's besides the point), and I was a good salesman in your company. You will give me the respect I deserve in my own home. That was LONG overdue, and why Laureen smiled and acknowledge it to their son, and even her mother kept quiet. As I said, as Rudy said, we need to stand up to bullies. I was so glad to see Jack finally did it. The hospital scene was what drove him to Ennis. IMO.
Ennis on the other hand, gave of himself to Jack, even though he didn't accept Jack's proposal the first time. He quit his jobs to be with Jack, he drove his horses so they can ride the mountain trails together. He borrowed a friends cabin... If Jack persisted and found ways to convince Ennis, I have no doubt that Ennis would eventually relent. However, it seems to be that Jack also wanted his cake and eat it. He wasn't prepared to leave the nice comfortable rich life he had, the freedom to go off to Mexico or where ever. If he really tried, I would be surprised that he could not convince Ennis to at least visit Lightning Flat, then slowly work his way to get Ennis to help out around the ranch, and eventually get him to accept the idea of living together. It didn't happen, partly because Jack was also ambivalent about leaving Laureen. Sexless it may be, their marriage still had its perks.
I am sorry, guys, but I totally disagree with this paralysis equilibrium interpretation.
I don't see Ennis as paralyzed by his fear. He simply felt powerless to change the world. He didn't know that he was suppose to change the world, only his own response to it.
And I find it interesting that you both thought Ennis was paralyzed in the sex scenes, or at least SNIT. To me, Ennis was experiencing the most transcending experience in his life during SNIT, even better than FNIT. He was surrendering not only to Jack, but to his own feelings, to accept that what he felt was what he longed for all those years, to be held, to be touched, to be comforted, to be touched not only physically, but more important, emotionally. His soul was open and trembling. I loved his grasping, with his eyes closed, the feel of Jack... It was like for the first time, his inner sight was open, to the possibility of the joy of two souls together. In a way, this is what great sex is all about. It is not about role playing, top or bottom, or even the physicality of the act. It is what was felt.
And let us not forget about Jack. To be needed, appreciated, like that...was probably the first time ever for Jack. In spite of all the sex that he did or did not have (with Jack's bravado, I suspect he is more virtuous than he let on), Jack was blown away (no pun intended) by the experience with Ennis, not because they did any particular sex act, but because he felt through Ennis, the joy and ecstasy of sex/love when two souls merge.
Paralysis? I cannot see that apply to anything in the movie. Not even the old man in Lightning Flat. Look a little deeper than the physical surface and I think we all agree that the movie is moving and passionate.
Just my humble and probably naive opinion. ;)
Dammit, Lance, we are getting, scholarly, like a graduate studies program----that will send the other Brokies running to the ya-ha,:*( 8) Thanks, Tony. I'd never thought anyone would tell me I fit in a graduate studies level program. But hey, I am just following the lead Manhattangirl with her brilliant analysis, and the rest of you with all your wise observation and interpretation. I am glad that I can contribute to the discussion.
fun & games sites. It will also force us to think, which is----woik!!!! But there should be a place for this and, if that's here, we should make
no apologies. Your responses were reasoned and articulate-thanks, even for disagreement. We'll never get anywhere if we don't have
different points of view. We'd be like the Borg, on Star Trek.
Wasn't trying for a working theory on Ennis that covers all-am trying, and I admit it, to undermine the standard theory that it's all
about Ennis being repressed gay and unable to acccept who he is. And if only he'd come out of the closet there'd be a happy ending.
Too pat, too cute, too politically correct, and were it true, this story is beautiful but shallow and will vanish. Am saying there's more
going on, and this love-story, through that tension, will be there for the ages.
About picketting aintfoolin---no, Lance, we all understand love is more than who is top or bottom---that's just horseplay around the
water cooler. We get serious here, then collapse into frivolity. Hmmm-I HOPE she knows I was kidding----for all I know, she's let the
dogs out and put the shotgun by the door. Never know about Brokies--might have hit a raw nerve. Nah---she's cool.
Well, that's all-thanks for the reasoned, careful response. Tony.
Ennis's sex life. My fav subject. Ennis has a quiet, unspoiled charm which is a asset toward attracting women as well as like Jack, men too. He's so sexy cool with the cowboy hat pulled down low, a shy smile to melt anybody's heart, and in the case in FNIT speed it up. Either he's very good or too gulble the latter I think not. For a while Ennis was having his cake, and eating it too. He is the only one in the film who beds his wife ,lover, and girlfriend. The good thing is , he's very choosy. Those few sex partners that he *let in* all found him suitable to settle down with and have a life with him.
Each sexual relationship he had ,satisfied a need or purpose for him outside of Jack though Jack was the purpose, imo. Alma nor Cassie had any idea what kind of man they were falling in love with. Didn't talk much, so did'nt express himself well, but that, they could live with. responsible and orderly, he was,and good with children. Can be an ornery challenge to anybody, but inside was a very caring,thoughtful,loving person.
But he had a secret. A secret longing for another man. A need for Jack. Not just the sex, but whatever makes up Jack. Physically, emotionally ,and mentally, Jack has become part of who he is. and he is a part of Jack. They are bonded together , almost as one, melded. He was very possessive toward Jack and went into a jealous rage over Jack's business in Mexico. To feel this close to some one, the sex life with Jack for him must have been mindblowing! ( I am thinking of the passage in the SS, where he "wrung it out" , thinking about it. ( "but it's nuthin like this" ) ( sex with women) I imagine there ,alot of care to please each other+ Ennis is on a journey of discovery, and Jack probably made it fun and playful with him once they found a comfortable place with each other. . never saw it with Alma. I think he felt most alive in Jack's arms.
Yeah I think his sex drive was lower than Jack's when they were apart, , but when the time came to be with Jack, I imagine even Jack had a hard time keeping up! Just my opinion.
Am returning to that scene-the confrontation. What DOES Ennis say when he cracks up, near to losing his mind?
"It's because of you I'm like this...ain't got nothin...am nobody..."
There is nothing said about turning gay, or how frequently they would meet. For Ennis, it was that his whole life revolved around the
love he had for Jack, and all Jack could talk about, seemingly, was more frequent sex.
Hi, keren-b! Your posts were great. As for disagreeing with mine, first, I did feel that sentence that you highlighted was kind of weak
and I almost un-typed it. Didn't, and you found it anyway. But second, we may not be in disagreement in that you spoke to Jack's
perspective and all that he was trying to say, which, of course, Ennis would be a fool not to understand. But I did use the word
"seemingly" with reference to what Ennis could have heard. And Jack was complaining about frequency.
Am always heavily influenced by the scene where he discovers the shirts, for I believe that is when he truly figured out just how greatly
he was loved in return. Which means---he wasn't sure before!!!! And so everything he had ever heard from Jack before was never really
fully understood. By the way, isn't there some theory about guys having right-brain, left-brain communication problems which women
don't have? Maybe that's why so many women seem to want to just jump into the movie and tell the two guys-you love each other--
work it out! But we dysfunctional males see Ennis and Jack and go--yup, hard to say--I love you. And be believed.
Please keep posting, when you can- you have a keen eye for narrowing things down to what's important. Tony.
Hi, keren-b. Was with you until your last sentence: "...if he wanted to keep telling himself he wasn't queer".
There are two main theories about Ennis' sexuality. The majority says repressed gay. The minority says straight guy so lonely he
fell off a cliff into deep love. Both should be tolerated, and it's been clear I follow the minority opinion. Can't be settled here---we
each bring to this film our definitions, fears (and it is very threatening to many women that a straight guy could love one man, have no
generic interest in other men, and stay straight) and hopes---for more tolerance for gays, or, for human liberation free of absolutes
(if you do it, you're gay or bi-). We each also see the film through our own experiences. So we will have different ways of climbing that
mountain, Brokeback, and what we expect to find at the top. If one sees a clear vista off one way, so too can someone see something
else, looking the other way. And in every direction, there is freedom and beauty.
But, back to your final sentence. There is the slightest nuance, or maybe not so slight----that Ennis thought queer was bad.
I would like to make the distinction between queer was bad and queer was dangerous. It might make for a huge difference.
So. 1) yeah, Ennis says: "you know I ain't queer." But in the film, the word is not said with a snarl-it's just the only word he
knew to use and he used it without a leer or a sneer.
2) when describing Earl and Rich, he had NO contempt for them. Please think back. He showed grudging admiration---
"they was tough old birds..." , and clearly zero approval of what was done to them. He hated what was done to them.
3) "this thing" that came over them, could come to get them killed. Fear. Not self-loathing.
4) Whatever Annie Proulx evolved later, in the SS, she has Ennis falling for Jack over their ability to keep company, to have
conversations (very hard for lonely Ennis) so that as he rides off to where he could "paw the white out of the moon."
Show me some sex in any of that. She describes a man falling off the deep end because he had finally found...a friend.
It is later that she has him sexed up over Jack. Before---it's the loneliness fulfilled, with no mention of sexual desire. Zero.
Keren-b----that supports the love coming first and, adjustments, later.
5) As Ennis faced off with Twist, Sr., he showed no shame for Jack's father's hinting he knew what Brokeback Mountain was.
This is not a man filled with self-loathing about his having had sex with a male.
Back to the distinction am trying to make. Ennis wasn't having any troubles owning up to being "queer", as you say. He knew what
he was, whether correct or not in his self-definition by other people's terms--he knew who he was. It was fear, raw fear of what happened
to Earl and Rich, not inability to define himself, to himself. He'd already done that-others don't find his definition convenient or possible.
I do. But have every respect for those who don't. Peace and love--Tony.
Hello again Tony (and you can just call me Keren, without the "b" ;))
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one... because I do think that Ennis couldn't accept his sexuality. I can't say whether Ennis was gay or not, like you pointed out there are different theories about that, so lets put it aside for a moment. But whatever the "truth" was, I think it's obvious that Ennis saw himself as straight, with the exception of his feelings for Jack. I'm not sure that he thought being gay was bad, I think it was mainly out of fear. I agree with you that there was no contempt in the way he talked about Earl and Rich. But contrary to your opinion, I don't think he was able to accept the thought that he might be gay, and I base my opinion on a number of things:
1) the "you know I ain't queer" comment. I'm not saying that it was said with contempt, just that Ennis was stating a fact. He didn't see himself as gay.
2) In the ss they have a conversation at the Siesta motel and Ennis says: "I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was - ? I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right?" Again, four years after Brokeback Ennis still insists that he's not "queer".
3) In Jack's recollection of the dozy embrace Annie Proulx wrote: "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held". I interpret from that that Ennis did have problems owning up to the fact that he had feelings for a man, that he was having a relationship with a man.
4) The "boys like you" comment. By saying to Jack "I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you" (and not "boys like us") Ennis distinguishes himself from Jack, as if saying "boys like you, not me. I'm not like you."
I do think that something changed in Ennis towards the end, after Jack's death. But I believe that up until then, it was essential for him to believe that he wasn't gay and he couldn't accept the thought that he might be. Whatever the reasons were, fear or self loathing, he just couldn't deal with this possibility. Just my opinion of course, everybody is entitled to have their own. :)
I would have liked to have seen more of a Sex Scene after the famous SNIT, I mean we get a hint the next morning of them being all playful that something did go on. But I would just liked to have seen a Little Bit more I dunno . . . .
Hey Daniblondy, if you're sitting real close to your screen you've probably already noticed this . . but just in case you missed it - Someone posted in a much earlier thread how intrigued they were by the fact that the morning after SNIT, when they're bein' all playful in camp and stuff, that the knees on Ennis's jeans are really dirty. Now I'm sure this just occurred by having to do several "takes" rolling on the ground and stuff. But for those of us with active imaginations there several other ways Ennis could have gotten his knees this dirty . . . .Jackster!!! Tsk! Tsk! But to be honest, I thought of that, too. And you know that lovable unique highly recognizable cough of his, I don't it's from just smoking either. >:D Ahem!
;) ;)
Whoops, here come the censors, gotta' go . . . >:D
Lance---what cough ???? . . . . Dammit, Lance -I"ll never feel mine, or anybody else's occasional cough is free of any.....implications. Had to go there, didn't you? Tony.Here I always thought when they ask you to cough during a physical they was checkin' other stuff . . . :s) What the hey?
Can't believe it----you guys are actually talking about.......sex. I mean, what kind of joint is this? Thought it was a graduate studies
program on the philosophical implications of Jack's grunts.
Daniblondy, nobody ever went there---upping the lighting. That's really new. There is a very strange thread on upping the sound, in
FNIT, where people claim they can hear Jack urging Ennis on in a very, uh, distinctive way. They claimed if you use earphones you can hear
him saying--well, something more strong, by far, than -"Do it!"
Jackster has me worried---if he's correct, there was a lot of attention to detail in the filming, or possibly.....nah. Had to be careful
detail. Even so, this would rile Aintfoolin, who insists Ennis wouldn't "bottom", and now she must worry about whether he would do other
matters of some import.
Lance---what cough????
Is this going X-rated? The ladies had wanted sensual scenes in middle age and now someone wants trousers yanked off?
That would be lewd, vulgar, and also.....very, very interesting. (cough, cough). Dammit, Lance-I"ll never feel mine, or anybody else's
occasional cough is free of any.....implications. Had to go there, didn't you? Tony.
Here I always thought when they ask you to cough during a physical they was checkin' other stuff . . . :s) What the hey?
Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze! ;D How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion, and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't come from doing what I insist he did'nt do.
As for the other thread, don your earphones friend, believe me it's worth hearing. Jack is being careful what he's asking for, but getting it too. Takes this scene to a new level of eroticism.
Finally, " Other matters of imports" are just fine and dandy with me. I have no qualms here, but what really bothers me is somewhere lies 12 unseen takes of FNIT! 13 takes before they got it right and Ang Lee chose the 7th one. Now THIS is a matter of importance. Whole or little pieces I want em! Still waiting for that Director's Cut Mr. Lee. The film is beautifully done as is , but do we have to get Paul Harvey to give us "the rest of the story"? Please, don't get me started.
Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?
Or how about one between Jack and Randall?
Personally, I can live without either one, although I wonder sometimes how the addition of such sex scenes could have changed the dynamic of the film...
I hope this is NOT exactly OT, because the addition of these scenes may change the way we view the existing ones...
Thanks, tpe, I totally agree with you, and my sincere apologies for taking the discussion down a different road, so to speak, but I've been in a funny mood lately, don't know why. My PBS is moving out of the sad and sappy stage and on to a glad and happy one...or may be it's just me.
Anyhow, I still stand by my original feeling that I wouldn't change the movie one bit. I think it is perfect the way it is with all the layers of detail, interpretation, and richness. Adding explicit scenes may be exciting for that moment, but that moment also takes away from the artistry of the movie. Passion sometimes has to take a back seat to a higher calling.
Your analogy of adding a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie, or Jack and Randall is a perfect example of how the story would be different and the dynamics would be changed.
Even the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma, the one and only between Jack and Laureen, were there to tell a particular part of the story...the love that is a force of nature, and its impact on the lives of the people it touched.
IN a way, it is a wonderful example of subtle economy -- nothing extraneous, only enough of what is required to tell the story.
Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?
Or how about one between Jack and Randall?
Major "eeewwww" to both! Sorry... I just feel that any sex scene which is not Ennis and Jack is somehow artificial and simply wrong. It's hard enough to see Ennis having sex with Alma. :-X
Major "eeewwww" to both! Sorry... I just feel that any sex scene which is not Ennis and Jack is somehow artificial and simply wrong. It's hard enough to see Ennis having sex with Alma. :-X:8 ;D why major eeewwww? I mean, hmmm...., I agree that these unnecessary sex scenes are distractions from the love that is a force of nature, but... :s)
YOu know, sorry if I sound so absolute and final about things, but just am not a "what if" person, do not spend a lot of time conjecturing. BBM has the most special place is my being - so don't mind my opinions if they sound harsh...hey, jerasjr, you and I both! If I ever come across sounding absolute and harsh, just slap me silly because I am really a soft and fuzzy person underneath the hard analytical exterior. I guess the movie has such an impact on me that I just want to find answers, to understand the layers of meaning, to perceive the richness of detail that can be seen only from multiple perspectives. That's why I love this forum. Everyone brings a different interpretation, a different take on the same dang movie that we saw, multiple times. Yet, we are still coming up with interesting variations on the different scenes.
You Bet. Ang Lee = G E N I U S.
[...]
Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze! ;D How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion, and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't come from doing what I insist he did'nt do.Just want to report back on my findings from turning the sound to max during FNIT. Other than the incredible amount of moaning and groaning, there is a definite sequence of #$%@ ME and a possible sequence of what sounded like the sound track playing in slow reverse or something, of the same phrase. So, aintfoolin, I agree that Jack definite asked and received.
As for the other thread, don your earphones friend, believe me it's worth hearing. Jack is being careful what he's asking for, but getting it too. Takes this scene to a new level of eroticism.
Finally, " Other matters of imports" are just fine and dandy with me. I have no qualms here, but what really bothers me is somewhere lies 12 unseen takes of FNIT! 13 takes before they got it right and Ang Lee chose the 7th one. Now THIS is a matter of importance. Whole or little pieces I want em! Still waiting for that Director's Cut Mr. Lee. The film is beautifully done as is , but do we have to get Paul Harvey to give us "the rest of the story"? Please, don't get me started.
Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze! ;D How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion, and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't come from doing what I insist he did'nt do.What exactly do you mean? >:D Texans don't drink coffee? Tops don't get their knees dirty? Ahem...
One more take on this:You said it, jerasjr. I can't think of a better way to describe the gift from Ang Lee, that it is a movie that is a container for us all to pour our hopes and dreams of what a relationship between two soul mates can be. We fill this container with our own envision, intertwined with the images that are crafted masterfully with loving care to every detail, so much so that it rivals reality. Indeed, to many of us, the characters are real because they echo what we feel in our souls.
There was a vision of this movie in Ang Lee's mind, and we are privileged to see what he considers the "best" intepretation of that vision. In my mind, that vision encompassed the feeling that this story is not about sex and not about love, but an intertwining of the two that involves a realtionship that we can only hope for. So, whether that involves 200 high altitude f..ks or only a few, his meaning was conveyed. And whether there were 200 takes of a scene or 2, his vision was conveyed.
It seems that his mastery is in leaving us to envision whatever else might have happened between our boys, and that could be his greatest gift to us.
Also OT, had not heard anymore from BabyTammy7, and so went to the Spanish site, where they are all just fine, and full of life andFor me, the story doesn´t speak about sex,not even love,but it´s the portrait of an extreme communion-do you say it so?-of two souls,bodys and minds,in a sexually,mentally,emotionally and living bond beyond words and beyond death,unfortunatelly. ^o. But it´s curious for me seeing as Ang Lee,a man, has turned these feelings into images with a greater tenderness than AP,a woman,has turned them into words...Clichés don´t always work... %(
love. COME BACK, BABYTAMMY!!! Yo te quiero!!!
For me, the story doesn´t speak about sex,not even love,but it´s the portrait of an extreme communion-do you say it so?-of two souls,bodys and minds,in a sexually,mentally,emotionally and living bond beyond words and beyond death,unfortunatelly. ^o. But it´s curious for me seeing as Ang Lee,a man, has turned these feelings into images with a greater tenderness than AP,a woman,has turned them into words...Clichés don´t always work... %(
P.S.:Tony,Babytammyhas had some personal problems and a change in her work that keeps her busier than few weeks ago.She´s allright now and even writes to us fom time to time,but we really hope she´ll come back soon in all her splendour.Jeffjoe and me specially are missing her a lot also. :\'( ˇNosotros tambien te queremosˇA ver si escribes en el canal espańol...Un abrazo/hugs. :^^)
Does anyone feel that was deliberate, so as not to offend the general public? The positions they were in were non-suggestive and
even goofy and unkempt. And would you have changed that- the nude scenes-to something erotic to women or gays? Had meant to
pursue this much earlier, but must do it now as we may, as was mentioned, have exhausted the topic. Anyone?
I don't know if I thnk it was deliberate to not offend the general public but I think it was "deliberate" in that it wasn't supposed to be erotic-for us anyway. We are watching their lives and their private moments. Just like with everything else in this movie we don't need to be beat over the head with "this is supposed to mean this or that"- it's the subtley of this movie that makes it more powerful- at least that's my opinion.
I see the characters themselves as not hard to figure, as individuals, but when they are placed into this story, things become a bit more complicated. I tend to look at them as individuals first, then go from there. Their personalies are very different, though the similar upbringing brought some balance to the two characters. The same , but different. No it is not about just sex, or love alone, but an intermingling of how one affected the other through Jack and Ennis's journey. . I totally agree with both jerasjr and Lance about Ang's vision of the story. Thank you for descibing to "Gift" so brilliantly. Ang Lee and Alfred Hitchcock are the two best directors that ever lived imo. Their attention to detail is priceless!
In the SS Jack's character is not JG in a physical sense and it is that fact along with HL , two gorgeous actors who helped bring these characters to life and to an audience that would not have , otherwise had interest in the film. I say this , certainly with no offense intended whatsoever to Ms Proulx, the great author of this story or anyone else, but you must admit, these two actors had such chemistry between them during the film , including the the sex scenes , that it did almost blurred reality. At least for me it did. FNIT to me was shocking , but I got really good feelings about the acts, in more ways than one. Thanks. My opinion.
I don't know if I thnk it was deliberate to not offend the general public but I think it was "deliberate" in that it wasn't supposed to be erotic-for us anyway. We are watching their lives and their private moments. Just like with everything else in this movie we don't need to be beat over the head with "this is supposed to mean this or that"- it's the subtley of this movie that makes it more powerful- at least that's my opinion.
Tpe, you have it on target-would it have been as powerful if the casting were different? Could it ever have been anyone other than
Heath and Jake? IMO, some things are meant to be---converging lines that make for a change in the flow of life, and this was one of those
rare events. Had to be them. The pieces had to fit together for this metaphysical interruption of our lives and they were essential parts
of the whole.
Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?
Or how about one between Jack and Randall?
Personally, I can live without either one, although I wonder sometimes how the addition of such sex scenes could have changed the dynamic of the film...
I hope this is NOT exactly OT, because the addition of these scenes may change the way we view the existing ones...
[...]Thank you so much for saying that you cried reading some of my posts, babytammy7. I really did not intend my words to be sad, but I guess a lot of the sadness within had to find an outlet. You are so right that I am a very sensitive person, perhaps too sensitive. Since you are right on all other counts, I will have to agree with you that I must be a wonderful poet, too. ^-^ :^^)
Lancecowboy, believe me, yesterday I told to MPJ (ask her please) that I'm really happy for you writting in the forum, 'cause I think you are a very sensitive person and I've cried reading some posts of you, 'cause you are a poet, a wonderful poet. ^f^
[...]
Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.
That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.
ww,You always see so clearly. I never clearly understood Jack's comment about high altitude f#@ks a year. Now I see this is refering to the sweet life. All the long road trips to Jack were down payment for the sweet life. When twenty years of it get nothing but Brokeback Mountain, and at increasingly sparse and difficult frequencies, I can see how frustrated he must be.
What you said is so interesting. For me what makes Jack so human, and so heartbreaking is his trips, he begs Ennis to save him from this life of wandering the roads. For Jack it was more than just a couple of high rise f@#ks, it wasn't sex for him but life he begs Ennis for.
I certainly agree with your last statement, it's so much more than the physical.
Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.
That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.
tpe,
Wouldn't a sex scene with Jack and Randall shift that delicate balance of how we view Jack and Ennis. We see them as not one of us, but something more than us, a goal that we all seek, we pray and hope for a love that is a force of nature, and can't be control. A sex scene with Jack and Randall would change the meaning of this love,this is not a night in Mexico, but deliberate attempt at a break from Ennis, an attempt to change this force of nature of that love. We hold up Jack and Ennis love as something we all seek in our lives, that if there was sex scene with Jack and Randal it would be threatening element, as if saying "hey they are not so different from us".
just a thought.
Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.
That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.
Interesting point, WW. I concede that there is something here. Personally though, a scene with Jack and Randall would have made Jack look appear less committed to Ennis evne before the final confrontation.I didn't manage to find the book in the limited time that I had, but I think there is one copy of it in a Vancouver's store. I will get it one way or another.
Of course, I realize that Jack DID have things going on with Randall, even before the final confrontation. But seeing both of them in a sex scene would really have shifted the balance from Ennis and Jack to a love triangle. I think Randall was a symptom of something going wrong, and not the cause. To have shown a sex scene would have made it appear -- perhaps -- to some viewers that he was the cause of a "break-up" between Jack and Ennis.
I hope this makes sense.
I didn't manage to find the book in the limited time that I had, but I think there is one copy of it in a Vancouver's store. I will get it one way or another.
Having said that, I don't know how Randall was treated in the short story, or even how the movie really imply it. It would seem to me that if Mr Twist heard about Randall, then there is at least something going on. However, it is not past the possibility with Jack that there is NOTHING going on with Randall. We don't know for sure.
There are a number of possibilities:
1. Randall is playing with Jack, sensing Jack's need, he used Jack but was never serious about commitment.
2. Randall is serious with Jack, not being happy in his own marriage, he was ready to divorce his wife and move in with Jack.
3. Randall is not interested in Jack, and everything was simply Jack's imagination.
I am more inclined to go with 1, but 2 is not impossible, and 3 is not totally out of the question, given Laureen's comment about Jack's ideas. Those of you with the short story can interpret it close to Annie's original intention.
In any case, I think option 1 is simply tragic, and option 3 is even more tragic. Option 2 is actually very unlikely, although an attractive scenario. It is unlikely because Randall is a vet, or college educated, young, with a fairly attractive wife. He would have to be crazy about Jack to make option 2 feasible. I am leaning towards 1 because I don't think 3 is Jack's style. Jack may read more than there is into the relationship, but he wouldn't make it up totally.
Whether Randall "caused" the breakup or was merely the "symptom" of it as a result of Ennis' slowness in making a commitment would be the topic of another discussion. But for starters, I don't "blame" Randall anymore. He doesn't know about Ennis, and he was simply doing what the liberated gay "Fire Island" culture of the time period (70's and 80's) demanded. It would be interesting to see HIS reaction to Jack's death. We can decide if he had anything to do with it, but that changes the movie to Colombo or other detective story.
OT: I also said elsewhere that I had wondered many times how Randall reactied to Jack's death -- a full discussion of this is embedded in some of the older threads -- perhaps the one on Randall.I, personally, would be disappointed at Jack, although understanding of his suffering, if he and Randall became serious. Jack has the potential to be the hero here, if he stuck it out, with Ennis, to the end. Changing horse (pun intended) just wouldn't do unless he resolved it with Ennis first, and the fight scene just wasn't satisfactory, at least in the movie. It left that feeling that Jack still loved Ennis, if only Ennis would return it more openly.
On topic: taking the tree possibilities you mentioned, I do think that 2 has the geatest potential of changing the synamic between Ennis and Jack, especially if they introduced a sex scene. If the filmmakers meant to imply that Randall was indeed serious, then it was good that they did not introduce a sex scene, IMO. It would have changed our views of everything that had passed between our two protagonists.
Interesting point, WW. I concede that there is something here. Personally though, a scene with Jack and Randall would have made Jack look appear less committed to Ennis evne before the final confrontation.I agree with you completely,tpe,very well said :t) .Effectively,Randall was not the cause of the progressive break in Jack and Ennis relationship,but the logical consequence of this break;we tend to be close to someone else to look for and maybe to find what we can´t in the one we love.We say here "a nail pulls another nail out";it may sound a little rough,but it´s true. :( Nevertheless,I don´t think either that a sex scene between Jack and Randall was something suitable,because it´d break the idilic image as lovers of Ennis and Jack and,even, it gaves the sensation that Jack was not only promiscuous,but also manipulative and opportunistic,as we say in anoter thread...Neither a sex scene between Jack and Lureen or Ennis and Cassie,although it was to show the progressive distance between them in the first case or the lack of comittment and real attraction on the part of Ennis in the second case. %( I only miss a I don´t know if sex scene,but desire one-affection is already shown in their last night together IMO- between them in their older age;I´ve already said it and I repite,because otherwise they seem sometimes a real pair of "fishing buddies", in the "innocent" sense of the word... :f)
Of course, I realize that Jack DID have things going on with Randall, even before the final confrontation. But seeing both of them in a sex scene would really have shifted the balance from Ennis and Jack to a love triangle. I think Randall was a symptom of something going wrong, and not the cause. To have shown a sex scene would have made it appear -- perhaps -- to some viewers that he was the cause of a "break-up" between Jack and Ennis.
I hope this makes sense.
I don't know, I guess I am beginning to realize that although outwardly I identify with Ennis, inwardly, I share many of Jack's characteristics, and I would be disappointed at myself, if I was not loyal to Ennis first. Yes, I know, OT, sorry.
how unloved Ennis was, how there is no parental love (inferred by the lack ofso Ennis didn’t have parents or friends or brothers and sisters who caressed him, or embraced him or took his hand, and knowing that he was virgin and probably Alma neither stroke him (no before marriage, I think), when he met Jack he have never had intimate contact, never have been caressed, touched, so I think at that point, in FNIT, and feeling “something strange” for his new friend, he was really hungry for caresses and physical contact, so I think there he was also saying: “Hey Jack, I really need to feel you, and I need it right now without games, without detours”, ‘cause I truly think he needed to feel the warmth and the touch of another human being, no matter how, no matter who.
grieving), nor family love (he was dumped when he became inconvenient), no sign of male friends, and then Alma being an almost routine
development, sort of like, well, getting a job;
I, personally, would be disappointed at Jack, although understanding of his suffering, if he and Randall became serious. Jack has the potential to be the hero here, if he stuck it out, with Ennis, to the end. Changing horse (pun intended) just wouldn't do unless he resolved it with Ennis first, and the fight scene just wasn't satisfactory, at least in the movie. It left that feeling that Jack still loved Ennis, if only Ennis would return it more openly.
I don't know, I guess I am beginning to realize that although outwardly I identify with Ennis, inwardly, I share many of Jack's characteristics, and I would be disappointed at myself, if I was not loyal to Ennis first. Yes, I know, OT, sorry.
I agree with you completely,tpe,very well said :t) .Effectively,Randall was not the cause of the progressive break in Jack and Ennis relationship,but the logical consequence of this break;we tend to be close to someone else to look for and maybe to find what we can´t in the one we love.We say here "a nail pulls another nail out";it may sound a little rough,but it´s true. :( Nevertheless,I don´t think either that a sex scene between Jack and Randall was something suitable,because it´d break the idilic image as lovers of Ennis and Jack and,even, it gaves the sensation that Jack was not only promiscuous,but also manipulative and opportunistic,as we say in anoter thread...Neither a sex scene between Jack and Lureen or Ennis and Cassie,although it was to show the progressive distance between them in the first case or the lack of comittment and real attraction on the part of Ennis in the second case. %( I only miss a I don´t know if sex scene,but desire one-affection is already shown in their last night together IMO- between them in their older age;I´ve already said it and I repite,because otherwise they seem sometimes a real pair of "fishing buddies", in the "innocent" sense of the word... :f)
lance,
You see something I also did, loyality. Jack was loyal to Ennis, the only way he knew how, the only way he could. From that first summer til his death, he was faithful and loyal to Ennis. When Old man Twist told Ennis of the "other man", he said nothing came of it. How could it?
OT- Lance, I've been reading your posts, and so much of your heart are in them. When I feel that there's nothing more inside me to feel I read you, and feel something more, thank you for that.
[...]
.....well, what if we look at how unloved Ennis was, how there is no parental love (inferred by the lack of
grieving), nor family love (he was dumped when he became inconvenient), no sign of male friends, and then Alma being an almost routine
development, sort of like, well, getting a job. Then maybe the only reference point Ennis had to real love, enduring love, was the defiant,
courageous love between Earl and Rich, proven by risking death and, by dying. Jackster's question was explored, but clearly, an unusual
equation could have been formed in the child's mind-real love is dangerous. And yet that was what he craved. Something real.
Well, starting there, am finally, finally where I would love to see more exploration. Sex as communication.
What message is sent by various types of sexual events? With a hooker-it's a transaction. With rape, it is often said to be--hatred, rather
than lust. Even in marital sex, it can be an expression of-everything's ok, routine & regular, and we're still together. And in mature love,
the message can be reassurance, clinging, ratification.
Have often felt that, in FNIT, Ennis was saying something: you want to touch my loneliness? You want to make this friendship serious?
Pay the price. (Which, Jack, as we know, didn't exactly mind paying). Then, in SNIT, Ennis was saying something else--he needed, hungered
for---real love, not animal sex, and so came to the tent, not as a cowboy stud, but as a beggar, hat in hand, asking for something more
than intercourse.
Sex, or rather, sexual intimacy as a form of communication. Then the rowdy, daytime scene, which Aguirre saw, communicating what?
Equality? Acceptance? No guilt? An agreement?
If sex can be a form of communication, what else do any of you see being communicated and even, what messages were sent but maybe
not received? Is this too deep? What do the sex scenes say, more than the surface level we usually deal with?
My apologies for rambling-it is the middle of the night. Where possible, avoid responses in Latin, where not possible, provide translation.
If this goes nowhere, well, there's always Finland. Tony.
[...] there is also a kind of sex only as a exchange: one as a transaction and other such a game to get pleasure and entertainment!!! But for me almost everybody looking for sex to express one state of mind or heart or soul and to filling their hollow and those very hearts and souls.
As you said in SNIT Ennis was looking for real love, but I have to say that I think that in FNIT he was looking for love too, or at least for affection …..OK it was rough, fast, without tenderness, but as I said before, he was so young, rude, inexperienced, and he was drunk and confused, but this kind of violence doesn’t mean he wasn’t looking for love. I mean, you say: so Ennis didn’t have parents or friends or brothers and sisters who caressed him, or embraced him or took his hand, and knowing that he was virgin and probably Alma neither stroke him (no before marriage, I think), when he met Jack he have never had intimate contact, never have been caressed, touched, so I think at that point, in FNIT, and feeling “something strange” for his new friend, he was really hungry for caresses and physical contact, so I think there he was also saying: “Hey Jack, I really need to feel you, and I need it right now without games, without detours”, ‘cause I truly think he needed to feel the warmth and the touch of another human being, no matter how, no matter who.
Everybody needs sex or at least caress and physical contact, EVERYBODY: even the most pure people like and need the touch of one hand in their hand or in their cheek, ‘cause you can express a lot of things with a caress or one little touch but above all you are saying you love or appreciate the other person, so touching is as important as being touched. When you love somebody (parents, children, friends, partner…) you need to touch them and of course being touched for them, taking their hands, give them kisses, caressing their heads and their hairs.
I read in some place that primitive men used to delouse each other only for touching and feeling each other. So I think sex become a truly and powerful way of communication very useful for people with lack or problems of communication, like Ennis, whose are not be able to express themselves with words.
But on the contrary, sex can also express bad or negatives feelings, like hatred or rage. Sometimes people make love as an act of revenge or as a way to hurt to somebody or themselves. For example, Jack in México was an act of pain, rage, and making love with that hooker he was saying he was hurt, and probably he expressed that in his way of doing it, that’s for sure. And if he and Ennis had made love after the confrontation scene, probably both of them had shown all their despair and bitterness in that intercourse.
However, I know some people, feel bad and guilty having sex, in spite of they are in love with people they making love with. I think that sometimes Ennis felt guilty too for doing it with Jack when, for example, he had told Jack not to the sweet life again, and in that moment maybe one of them were rough making love, trying to hide all his bitterness or as a way to throw all his pain away. I don’t know is this makes any sense….. :-\\
[...]
[...]
Before I forget, welcome back, Lance. Read one of your posts about Ennis having a flashback to violence, with the sheep killed, a sense of
being unclean after FNIT, and the killing of the coyote as restoring balance. That was really good stuff and supportable.
Anyway, my speaking to sex as a form of communication was really garbled and am sorry for writing so poorly. Even so, BabyTammy
untangled some, or even all of it, and developed a coherent answer. But maybe there's a little left to go.
Was Ennis communicating anything by keeping the sex minimal---about twice a year? Can't remember the exact words but Manhattengirl
said wasn't it all about knowing your partners needs? That's in an earlier post somewhere above. If that's right (and agree with her completely),
Ennis was not fulfilling his partner's needs and even further, may have been saying something, by not doing so. It's true, he had
responsibilities, but, and we've all wondered this, couldn't he have found a way?
Was he saying, by rationing the sex, that that was all he could handle? Or was it paralysis, which has also been discussed? Or, as has
been said often, he could not come to terms with his sexuality?
This is at the heart of the tragedy-Jack saying yes, always, and Ennis, from the start, from the very start, saying it could go on forever
(ain't no reins on this one) but qualifying that by saying they could get together.....sometimes, on a regular basis. What was he saying
beyond the words themselves?
I went and looked up the Immortal Beloved, the mysterious love of Beethoven that nobody can track down. Saw his letters--and thought
I saw, maybe, a similar dilemma-what level of commitment on either side, the problems of social censure, and the difficulty of two different
locations.
The concept of the Immortal Beloved has gone past Beethoven's mystery love, and surely applies to both Ennis and Jack, each to the other.
We have Beethoven's letters. We have Ennis' keeping the sex and the meetings limited. I wonder if Ennis was saying, this isn't about sex.
Honestly don't know. I have no approach to this that works. But sex IS a form of communication and Ennis WAS saying something.
Maybe this can't be answered, but have an open mind if anyone will have a go at this. Tony.
When Alma wanted the apartment over the laundry where and how did she convince Ennis? When Lureen got Jack in the back of the car what was she telling him? Alma wanted to move in town, and Lureen wanted to let Jack know that even though he was not her social equal she picked him out of all the suitors at the ball, (a real Scarlett O'Hara). Sex was communication tool, but not a way to communicate something deeper, spiritual.
Sex is a tricky thing. A way to get something and a way to communicate one's feelings. No matter how difficult their lives apart from each other were. Jack and Ennis when together, when making love, that was the one thing that didn't decrease or change no matter how often they were together, it didn't matter. Sex was intense, all consuming.
Ennis would always be a ranch hand and Jack the "pissant" rodeo rider, but when together they ruled what was their world. This total acceptance of each other, as men, as lovers, was the one real thing they each owned. That's why I believe they could never quit each other, then who would they be. Their relationship was who they were, sex was how they communicated their love, and total acceptance of each other.
Just a thought.
[...]Hi, aintfoolin, I think someone said the short story had Ennis expressing more of his feelings in the hotel scenes. One of which had him saying how he kept thinking about Jack but never about any other men. I think as far as Ennis was concerned, it wasn't the physical appearance that attracted him to Jack, but the emotional, personality of the carefree bravado that Jack represented in rodeo riding devil-may care attitude. Their personalities are polar opposites, yet they fitted each other on that Mountain like the two shirts. The sex was an expression of that fit.
It's been dicussed how Jack read Ennis up on Brokeback, ( How Jack knew when to approach Ennis in FNIT) but I'm curious if Ennis "read" anything into Jack prior to the tent scene? When Ennis looks at Jack just prior to the FNIT, whom does he see? A man, equal to him , rodeo bullrider, a masculine cowboy. He is also a friend , a companion, but I often love to explore the physical aspects. Jack was an attractive man, ( film Jack) not, the SS one, though in any case, Ennis fell hard.), but for the sake of this poster, it's the film Jack, did Ennis ever acknowledge this to himself? Did he look at the physical? I feel this is a very intriuging point. How much of THAT played into Ennis's new found experiences? They seemed like each others's dream in every way imo. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty, Alma says. As far as sex between them (and for Ennis's sake) it's a compliment as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes "Nasty" is good. ;) ;)
When Alma wanted the apartment over the laundry where and how did she convince Ennis? When Lureen got Jack in the back of the car what was she telling him? Alma wanted to move in town, and Lureen wanted to let Jack know that even though he was not her social equal she picked him out of all the suitors at the ball, (a real Scarlett O'Hara). Sex was communication tool, but not a way to communicate something deeper, spiritual.
Sex is a tricky thing. A way to get something and a way to communicate one's feelings. No matter how difficult their lives apart from each other were. Jack and Ennis when together, when making love, that was the one thing that didn't decrease or change no matter how often they were together, it didn't matter. Sex was intense, all consuming.
Ennis would always be a ranch hand and Jack the "pissant" rodeo rider, but when together they ruled what was their world. This total acceptance of each other, as men, as lovers, was the one real thing they each owned. That's why I believe they could never quit each other, then who would they be. Their relationship was who they were, sex was how they communicated their love, and total acceptance of each other.
Just a thought.
Mmmmm.....need to scratch the word "delusion" from the above post, as rapidly as possible. Aintfoolin and I have had a running battle
on that one point, all in good humor, but the World Series may not be going as she would like, and so am running for cover.
Of course, I meant reputable expertise, profound insight, etc., etc. No want no baseball bat headed my way. Tony.
So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love. <^(
What fanfics? What sex? Why am I always the last one to know what's going on around here? Tony.:8 ;D I love your sense of humor, Tony.
[...]:ghug: :^^) babytammy7, although there is no cure for PBS, the love and friendship in this forum is a cool ointment that soothes the fever and make PBS bearable.
So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love. <^(
Oooohhh, sorry I don’t know if this makes sense, I’m so confused today…..( I have an terrible PBS, and also I’m very tired ’cause still I’m sick). Just thinking….. :s)
Kisses from Spain. ^f^
Am surprised at you, BabyTammy---romance? Passion? Sex? They'll never let you back in the convent now. Tony.
First hugs on the PBS :ghug: I'm heavy in it myself right now.
The part of the OS/movie that drew me in was the love that was so evident between them, not how many times they kissed or made love. Early on that reunion kiss made me weak kneed and I practically drooled everytime I saw it- now I cry and cry hard through it because it has come to mean so much more to me. This movie doesn't grip me because of the sex or kissing- these characters are very real to me and as much as it still reduces me to a sobbing mess, I love watching them fall in love and I cry for all that was denied them and lost to them.
MG,
I totally agree with this. Beautifully said. I believe that during sex between these two, it is the culmination of all they feel for each other. It is also emotion expressed in a natural comfortable way for both of them. I loved the way they just sort of just stumbled upon one another. It was fate that brought them together thru Aguirre, but what are the chances of lightening strikng twice like this for either of these guys in Wy 1963? With the needs that they had, Ennis, in need of a friend, and there is Jack, willing to "stick with him" Through the confusion, Sham marriages, on both parts, half-loving and half-living, Jack was there. It was he who saw and pursued a future beyond Brokeback.
I still feel that Jack tapped into something deep inside Ennis, buried for years. I think when he met Jack, Ennis grew so close to Jack that he allowed himself to let them surface. Sex was important, as in any couple who is in love with someone else, but this was a new feeling for Ennis, a very different exploration into sex. I do feel the distance kept it fresh and new in part Each time they met it was an opportunity to explore all over again. No doubt through the years, they came to know each other's needs very well and the only thing I'd really change would be some visiable expression of it.
It's been dicussed how Jack read Ennis up on Brokeback, ( How Jack knew when to approach Ennis in FNIT) but I'm curious if Ennis "read" anything into Jack prior to the tent scene? When Ennis looks at Jack just prior to the FNIT, whom does he see? A man, equal to him , rodeo bullrider, a masculine cowboy. He is also a friend , a companion, but I often love to explore the physical aspects. Jack was an attractive man, ( film Jack) not, the SS one, though in any case, Ennis fell hard.), but for the sake of this poster, it's the film Jack, did Ennis ever acknowledge this to himself? Did he look at the physical? I feel this is a very intriuging point. How much of THAT played into Ennis's new found experiences? They seemed like each others's dream in every way imo. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty, Alma says. As far as sex between them (and for Ennis's sake) it's a compliment as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes "Nasty" is good. ;) ;)
:ghug: :^^) babytammy7, although there is no cure for PBS, the love and friendship in this forum is a cool ointment that soothes the fever and make PBS bearable.
The sex in FNIT and SNIT are so perfect, that we long for more. It is natural but at the same time, I think the search for more of perfection may lead to disappointment. I don't know, it's still so new to me that I am only starting to sort these feelings out. Once I have read the short story, and watch the movie again for the first time in a week, with the script in hand, I will let you know if I also crave for more sex scene. ;)
IMO:
You know I maybe wrong in this, but in film I think it wasn't Jack's appearance that drew Ennis to Jack but Jack's personality that drew him to Jack. His bad harmonica playing, getting thrown from the mare, not shooting straight, those things Jack would laugh at himself about and that Ennis laugh with him, but not at him. These things, the things that others might call someone incompetent, or bragget with no back up, was endearing to Ennis.
In the film these are two very attractive men, but something that's not hitting you over the head with. But funny, in the ss what was written about Ennis memory of Jack? Was his appearance the one Ennis remembered, the slightly bucked teeth before he had them fixed, and his curly hair. The Jack Ennis fell in love with from years past when they were young.
Go figure.
Hello brokies!!Hi,Tammyˇ
Well, back to the original question. We all have said that we are really happy with the sex scenes as they are ( Not Tony….he want us to show him something…. ^^) ^^) And it’s not an Italian, Tony…. >:D :8 ), so powerful and beautiful!!! And we all (well almost all) are truly happy with the number of sex scenes and the “things” Ennis and Jack did in those scenes!!!
But today I was going for a walk on the fanfic board, and I noticed that every fic have a lot of sex scenes, very explicit, very long, very intense, full of different postures and different sexual games!!! :d) (t) In almost every chapter of several fics there is sex!! (t) Always, in those fics the writers use sex like an amazing way that Ennis and Jack need to express themselves and their feelings and emotions, and even in all those fanfics sex is the only way for them to show each other their eternal love.
I also noticed that every brokie reading those fics, adore sex scenes, looking for more, asking for more and clapping the sex scenes they just have read!!! They are (and I am) sooooo happy and excited reading Ennis and Jack making love!! And sex scenes seem to be an indispensable element in those fics, in Ennis and Jack’s life and love!!!
So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love. <^(
Oooohhh, sorry I don’t know if this makes sense, I’m so confused today…..( I have an terrible PBS, and also I’m very tired ’cause still I’m sick). Just thinking….. :s)
Kisses from Spain. ^f^
Modedator's hat is on: Once again, this thread has a tendency to go off topic, if you want to chit chat, there are plenty of places on this forum. And yes there is an automatic filter to "edit some words", please refer to our guidelines about the usage of proper wording. ;)You are so cute with your moderator's hat on, Chameau, <^( :^^)
You are so cute with your moderator's hat on, Chameau, <^( :^^)
myprivatejack, babytammy7, I am glad to learn about an European perspective of the sex scenes, and you brought up an interesting point that I am not sure anyone else has covered. Please let me know if I am wrong. Namely, why is it, that the two cowboys are so reluctant to talk about their feelings? I think it is the central theme that Anne Proulx makes in the short story. These stoic reticent cowboys are confronted with a love that they did not understand, and has no vocabulary to handle it, as Ennis said, there ain't no reins on this one. They simply lived it, first in the tent at night, then out in the open under the warm sun, by the fire in the evening and so on. They didn't talk about it. The closest they did was when Jack related to Ennis how much he missed him, and when Ennis talked about Earl and Rich. The rest of the time, they simply didn't talk about the love of their life that is nobody else's business.
Is it a North American male thing? At least, the non-metromale? Cowboys don't cry, they put up. No need to talk about things, when getting the job done is what's important.
Perhaps all the new direction our Canadian and American society has been heading is correct. Men need to learn to communicate their feelings, their emotion, more openly and with more awareness, so that they can deal with what are truly important in life.
When we can talk about sex openly, without shame and innuendo, without snickers or misconception, without assumptions or prejudgement, that's when boys and men will be able to take reins of their own feelings, and make them good feelings. We don't need to be explicit, or do we? What's the difference between using the f word, and saying having sex (other than the extra letters), what about making love? Do all the euphemism distract from the power of the most primitive instinct we have? Isn't that the sole reason for the fascination with it in all media, including the fanfic? Sex is the oldest and most powerful addiction known to men. Women know this and often use it to their advantage, and also often fall victim to it. What is the answer? Does the Scandinavian experiment work? When sex becomes as common as love, no big deal, except as a celebration of two people's feelings and life? We know for certain that the Victorian or British experiment failed. No offense intended, but making sex a sinful shameful act only makes it more powerful, but uncontrolled, uncontrollable... We need a middle ground that makes sex a celebration, but with full awareness of its power and consequences. It is not just another word, but a sacred commitment between two people, not to be taken lightly, but also not to be hidden under layers of clothing, physical nor metaphorical.
Would I change the sex scenes in the movie? Not a bit, because they are perfect in the way they told the story. Would I have sex scenes in sequel to the movie? Absolutely, especially if the sequel is to explore fully Ennis' life after Jack's death.
cowboy, great post - having grown up at the same time as our boys, the stoicism and non communication seemed oh so natural to me - we have to realize what another era that was, there was little evidence of the touchy-feely component to society there is now. Not that it is a bad thing, it is just a different thing than the boys experienced. Wiping away the many years that society has progressed is not easy, but that is what one must do to interpret or speculate on the hows and whys.Thanks, jerasjr, you all bring out the best in me, and Brokeback Mountain makes it easy for me to pour my heart out.
To give an example, people imposed their own censorhship - men used profanity among men, but not when women were present, and women and young people did not use profanity period. It would shock me to no end if my sister ever swore, while it does not when my daughter does at times...it was just the standard of the time. It was not thought of as an imposition, but rather a consideration.
OMG Lance, what a beautiful post!!!! (t) Amazing...... (t) Words so nice and so real: Cowboys don't cry (boys don't cry......)
I totally agree with you!!! You know sometimes sex is the most powerfull way to express ourselves, 'cause body's language (corporal expression) have always been more necessary and meaningfull than words, as we say in Spain: one picture is more valuable than 1ooo words. And you know that some people never say I love or something like that (my brother in law.....), but they always show their love in another way, and I think sex is often the way more used, at least for two cowboys I know, those who spent 20 years loving each other without say I love you with words, but saying it with caresses and kisses!!!
I love the BBM sex scenes as they are, I mean, I love and I will always love everything in BBM as it is.........EVERYTHING, though I'm dying of sadness...... :\'(
Big kisses Lance...... (You look like a cowboy, but I think you know how good is to cry...)
[...] It's interesting that the movie always has Ennis' arm warped around Jack when they are sleeping, spooning, but always with Jack holding Ennis when they talk. Just an observation. ;)
Assuming some of you would consider changing the sex scenes, you you prefer the changes to be more intense/explicit, or more subtle/understated?
An example for this would be the motel scene, where the SS is far more explicit and visceral than the more veiled scene in the movie.
What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact. They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart. "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.
Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other. After that, it seemed they couldn't look each other directly. After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other, I don't know, may be it just me.
Sorry just blowing off steam
To get back on topic, as you mentioned about self-censorship, and as tpe is asking about the change in sex scenes, I think it is the genius of Ang Lee that the scenes are as subtle as they are, because the imagination is more powerful, precisely because we often see what we want to see.
Making the sex scenes explicit would detract from that, fulfilling the wishes only of those who happen to have the same desires, and disappointing those who wish it differently, however minor the difference.
The softer gentler motel scenes are more emotional, less sexual, even there, the sparse dialogue, combined with great acting, conveys so much in our own mind, that the power of the scenes are felt only afterwards.
Yes, I'd love to see more explicit sex scenes, but not as part of the story or movie.
Yes, I'd love to see more of the subtle softer dialog in the motel room, because that would mean the cowboys are learning and struggling to communicate. That would be better than the tragedy at the end.
I am going to say that I found the first sex scene, in the tent, actually very shocking.
I saw the movie with a guy and a girl of my aquaintance who are in a relationship. Being sat between them, looking at the sheep, waiting for something to happen between the two guys on screen, was pretty uncomfortable. Because of course we knew going in that it was a love story about Jack and Ennis. When it actually happened, it was so sudden. The roughness of it was kind of worrying, and it certainly knocked me out of my complacency!
As to the other sex scenes, I think the actual depiction of sex was mostly irrelevant (other than the point the film made about Ennis flipping Alma over... poor Alma! ???), it was what it said about the story and the relationships that was important, just like any other scene.
In fact I think that this point bears repeating:
Just very touching. :^^)
Edmund
What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact. They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart. "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.
Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other. After that, it seemed they couldn't look each other directly. After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other, I don't know, may be it just me.
Sorry just blowing off steam
Assuming some of you would consider changing the sex scenes, you you prefer the changes to be more intense/explicit, or more subtle/understated?
An example for this would be the motel scene, where the SS is far more explicit and visceral than the more veiled scene in the movie.
What bothered me about the scene in the motel, there was no eye contact. They just finish making love, after 4 years of being apart. "Look at me, after you had me", especially when you say to me, there nothing we can do in this relationship, and you're stuck with what you got here, making a living is all that you have time for now. LOOK AT ME.
Before the FNIT, it seemed to me they had more eye to eye contact, more intimate with each other. After that, it seemed they couldn't look each other directly. After shooting the elk, and eating their meal, at least they were sitting next to each other, I don't know, may be it just me.
Sorry just blowing off steam
I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.Well said,Keren.I totally agree with you,without changing an only comma of all you say.I only would like to
As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.
I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.
As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.
I think I've said it before on several occasions but I'll say it again - the only scene in the movie that I view as a "sex scene" is the FNIT. The SNIT and reunion/motel scene are love scenes as far as I see it. There is a big difference between having sex and making love, the FNIT and SNIT are all about that difference. The emphasise in the SNIT and the motel scene was on feelings - not baring their bodies, but baring their souls. I love Ennis's vulnerability there, the way he just gives himself to Jack, puts his soul in Jack's hands. It's amazing. I'd be happy to have more of SNIT as long as it remains clear that this is a love scene, not a sex scene.
As for the motel scene, yes, I'd like it if Ang had kept it closer to the SS, but by that I mean mainly the dialogue. I don't mind so much not seeing them "jouncing a bed", but I would like very much to hear Ennis tell Jack the things that he told him in the SS - like him wretching in the alley and "I shouldn't a let you out a my sights", for example. or them sharing the same cigarette. In the SS Ennis had talked quite a lot in this scene, in the movie he hardly said a thing. So I would've loved it Ang kept more of the dialogue in.
I agree with you all and maybe I'll be a bit O.T. but watching the sex scenes in latest Ang Lee movie (Lust, Caution) I was feeling uneasy since they are very explicit (I don't think they were faking ???), it was like being a voyeur. I prefer what Ang Lee did in BBM when in the short story the sex scenes were more raw.
I feel the same way, actually. Explicit scenes are fine, but they tend to make them sex scenes instead of love scenes. Not that sex scenes can't be lyrical; they can. However, it is much more difficult, technically and emotionally.
LOve scenes are by nature more suggestve, no? Some of the most erotic scenes in cinema are not explicit, IMO.
I feel the same way, actually. Explicit scenes are fine, but they tend to make them sex scenes instead of love scenes. Not that sex scenes can't be lyrical; they can. However, it is much more difficult, technically and emotionally.
LOve scenes are by nature more suggestve, no? Some of the most erotic scenes in cinema are not explicit, IMO.
Hi, tpe, you bring up an interesting point. Is it possible to have explicit sex scenes while still conveying love between Ennis and Jack?
If I understand it, sex is by nature a selfish act, it is about satisfying my needs, my desires, my lust for the object of my affections. The rest of the world be d@#$. This was FNIT, as keren said. On the other hand, making love is about fulfilling the needs and desires of the one I love, who loves me. This is SNIT; the is the passionate reunion kiss; this is the little caresses between Ennis and Jack, whether in the motel scenes or by the river, by the fire...anywhere.
Is it possible, to interweave the selfish passion of FNIT with the selfless love of SNIT without destroying the lyricism of the movie?
Personally, I think it is possible, when the selfish nature of explicit sex is transformed into selfless fulfillment of the other person's sexual needs, as in SNIT. The movie stopped short of explicit sex there, but I can see it continue in ways that show Jack's love for Ennis, and allowing Ennis to accept himself in the process, while surrendering to the feelings, and learning to love Jack in new ways. The explicit sex scenes would then be very different from the animal-like passion of FNIT, but explicit nonetheless, and adds to the storytelling of Ennis' journey of transformation, which, to me, IMO, is what makes the movie resonate with so many, especially with me. Just my humble opinions...I'm no cinematographer, just a movie lover. <^(
I certainly agree Thomas - a scene does not have to be explicit in order to be erotic. If I may use another example here, there was a film with Daniel Day-Lewis and Michelle Pfeiffer and Winona Ryder - I think it was called "The Age Of Innocence". Michelle Pfeiffer was a countess, and Day-Lewis was in love with her, and in a certain scene she took off her glove and allowed him to touch her hand and maybe kiss it, I don't remember. And in an Interview with the cast one of them said that in that context of the Victorian times, the act of the countess removing her glove and baring her hand for a man to touch it was extremely erotic - that scene was more erotic than many explicit sex scenes in other movies could be.
In a similar way I find the SNIT one of the most erotic scenes I've seen, and there's no explicit sex there. The context, two men, cowboys no less, in rural conservative Wyoming back in the 60's, had a lot to do with that. Knowing the background and what it took for Ennis to kiss Jack and to stroke his body like that, how daring and "forbidden" it all was in Ennis's thinking, made the kiss alone a very erotic act. I think Ang Lee did a fantastic job with that scene.
Manhattengirl, you are, as far as I know, well within the topic of this thread. And I don't know that there's much, if any, disagreement
between us--we just notice different stuff. Cyberspace, as I have learned, prevents some of the necessary format of a good discussion,
as we lose some of the human empathy and interaction integral to communication.
Alma does get lost from our memory, all too often. In the SS, she dumped Ennis because he wasn't going anywhere. Materialistic, or
practical-take your choice. In the film, though, we do see love, especially as you have pointed out, where she felt she lost him, when she
saw him kissing Jack, and with passion.
What more could she have done? Gosh--sexually? Romantically? The two scenes with sexual content don't give many clues, or I'm too
dense to pick up on them. Maybe it is the ABSENCE of good sexual scenes between them that blocks, and maybe was meant to block, any
travelling down that road.
The only thing that comes to mind is that Ennis didn't seem unhappy with their sex life----he stayed with her until she challenged him
on the fundamentals, and he could not handle any kind of rejection, even if it was just her telling him to use a condom.
What else could she have done? It's too deep, but have referred before to her love being one-dimensional, whereas the love between
Ennis and Jack was friendship love, male tribal bonding love, family love, romantic love, and sexual love. She couldn't compete on those
levels and yet....he still stayed with her. Don't know what else she could have done, but then it was you, manhattengirl, who said it was
about knowing the partners needs and fulfilling them. Somehow, Alma still left Ennis.....lonely.
The absence of sex scenes and also romantic scenes (after the first year), is the best understanding we are given. Tony.
Tony,
The question isn't whether she was aroused by Ennis she was, but how could she keep him aroused enough keep him in her bed and not Jack's. Even married to the grocer, was having his kid, she still longed for Ennis.
Your point is well taken, in fact she didn't like that particular sexual act, but not to try something else, something different, I don't know, would have been natural for her to try anything to keep the one she loved, even if it's a losing battle. She didn't understand what was going on, but to do nothing to keep what was the love of her life, and that was Ennis, she conceded defeat when she saw Jack and Ennis kissing. Her bitterness set in early, hung throughout the marriage. My only thought is that if she did try to keep him, and that she would anything to keep him, would we draw different conclusions about Ennis and about Alma? I'm just going on the topic of this thread.
Just a thought.
Was Ennis sexual drive lower? Or when it came to Jack, Ennis was equal to if not higher, because it was Jack. The reunion always fascinated me because it was showed Ennis uncontrolled need for Jack. It gave us the idea that Ennis, no matter how controlled he seemed to be, loses it when it came to Jack.
In the scene making love to Alma, there was no passion, but with Jack when he had him again, you see that passion and that want. The one thing I always wondered about Alma, was it the shock of seeing him kissing Jack or the the passion that was displayed, she closed the door as if she was witnessing a intimate moment between two lovers and she was the intruder. Did she see a passion in Ennis she never knew was there?
Did she stay with him for so long waiting for something to happen? I wished Alma challenged Ennis more sexually, she just laid there, complaining about how short on pills she was.
Just a thought.
Tony,
The question isn't whether she was aroused by Ennis she was, but how could she keep him aroused enough keep him in her bed and not Jack's. Even married to the grocer, was having his kid, she still longed for Ennis.
Your point is well taken, in fact she didn't like that particular sexual act, but not to try something else, something different, I don't know, would have been natural for her to try anything to keep the one she loved, even if it's a losing battle. She didn't understand what was going on, but to do nothing to keep what was the love of her life, and that was Ennis, she conceded defeat when she saw Jack and Ennis kissing. Her bitterness set in early, hung throughout the marriage. My only thought is that if she did try to keep him, and that she would anything to keep him, would we draw different conclusions about Ennis and about Alma? I'm just going on the topic of this thread.
Just a thought.
I love the delineation between Sex and making love. Which is the difference between FNIT and SNIT
and no matter how hard Alma may have wished it there was no way that she'd ever have Ennis' heart. That rodeo cowboy lassoed it on BBM and he wasn't giving it back to anyone! Held it close, beating next to his
<^( <^(
I really don't care if there were more sex scenes so long as they were more of the love variety. When they got older, I would have appreciated more tenderness instead of so much conflict. The one brief pic of them sleeping in a tent with Ennis's arm over Jack is what I am talking about. Not sex, certainly, but affection, protection, representing love. After the reunion, there are few scenes of love between them. I would have appreciated seeing more. It would help clear up the question about the future, had Jack lived -- would he have left Ennis, or would he have stayed with Ennis? Was it truly over, or a love that would NEVER be over -- never die? As it is, we are left with their last scene together which answers no questions at all -- just makes us wonder what would have been.
I do consider the scene in Jack's bedroom when Ennis finds the shirts to be very sensual. Ennis FEELS Jack in those shirts, takes them home where he can remember Jack whenever he wishes just by touching the shirts and remembering their togetherness. The final scene in the movie is a love scene to me, also -- the way Ennis's eyes fill with tears and he swears to Jack. Swears what? Eternal love, I believe.
I guess when it comes right down to it, the film is as close to perfection as it could possibly be. I don't need anything changed to love it.
The two scenes to which you refer above seem to be sexless, but they are sensual in the absense of the sex. To me, both are excellent in that they show sex in its highest form--loving possession and caring protection. Just as a parent loves to watch his/her child sleep, so I find it intriguing to watch Ennis and Jack sleep ( or doze). It is when they are most unaware of the existence of the rest of the world. As you said, they are most contented in these scenes. To me, that means they are at home with one another, holding one another with no further expectations.
Beautifully said!
In many ways, I prefer these "sexless" scenes to the more erotic ones. The love expressed here goes well beyond the notion of sex as a physical act.
Sex means so much to those involved but to watch it portrayed ( some might say faked) sometimes gives one the sense of being voyeuristic, whereas scenes of closeness, caring, sheer pleasure in the presence of another don't carry the same overtones and are much more meaningful to the onlooker/audience, IMO.
Yes, beautiful both of you lamusica and tpe. Sex and Love are not the same thing, right? There's really only three "sex" scenes in the movie that I can see: FNIT, Ennis & Alma (not so lonely now), Jack & Lureen (backseat). The others are really Love scenes that may, or may not, lead to sex. As you've both said the Love scenes are the really beautiful ones, and as WW has pointed out, I also feel like a voyeur when watching the others. Though FNIT is so animalistic it's almost unhuman and kind of like seeing a couple of dogs go at it. Sorry if that sounds crude (a bitch of an unsatisfactory situation!).
A couple of days ago, a conversation started up between myself and a co-worker in which she started out saying " you know that part where the one guy got raped in the tent?.... Raped?. I informed her that no rape took place in the movie , but it just goes to show that society in general is misinformed as to the sex scenes in this film. She had no idea how much. Needless to say, I was shocked that she percieved FNIT this way . She went on to say she found it disgusting and disturbing, I went on to say, I found it stimulatingly erotic. There's some real half-bakes out here folks. To each his/or her own I guess. This is the first time this has happened, and I found it amazing to find myself having to defend Jack and Ennis. Has any one else had this experience? Just a mention...
Both, The roughness of the scene, and the way Ennis took control made her think it was a rape. She was very turned off to it. Don't think she "got" the movie, or the events that led up to the scene. I feel she is some one who has negative, pre-concieved ideas about gays.
I think the co-worker who saw the FNIT as a rape needs to use a dictionary, then open her eyes when re-viewing the scene. There was no rape in this movie. However, I have some friends who also were repulsed by the FNIT. My personal take on that is that they think that is the "acceptable" reaction for a middle-aged, heterosexual woman to have. There's no sense in arguing with people like that. They think the proper reaction to such a scene is horror and rejection of the act; how can anyone argue with such a mindset? Suffice it to say years and years of indoctrination have had their toll on attitudes, and some people are just not willing, nor able, to open up to possibilities. Their loss. I pity them.
A couple of days ago, a conversation started up between myself and a co-worker in which she started out saying " you know that part where the one guy got raped in the tent?.... Raped?. I informed her that no rape took place in the movie , but it just goes to show that society in general is misinformed as to the sex scenes in this film. She had no idea how much. Needless to say, I was shocked that she percieved FNIT this way . She went on to say she found it disgusting and disturbing, I went on to say, I found it stimulatingly erotic. There's some real half-bakes out here folks. To each his/or her own I guess. This is the first time this has happened, and I found it amazing to find myself having to defend Jack and Ennis. Has any one else had this experience? Just a mention...Surely your work mate is" possessed "by some of the many clichés that are stil around gay relationships,mainly in a physical sense.The scene is rough and hard in this sense,because we can´t forget that sexual relationship-even if it´s made with love-is passion,and passion can be,if not aggressive and less still violent,kind of rude.We´ve seen a lot of these scenes between man and woman that is supposed to be allowed,and we can think:-"Hey,look at these two,wowˇ";but never:-"Poor girlˇThis guy is raping herˇ"...Why can be different if they´re two men?.I really don´t know... :-\\
I think the co-worker who saw the FNIT as a rape needs to use a dictionary, then open her eyes when re-viewing the scene. There was no rape in this movie. However, I have some friends who also were repulsed by the FNIT. My personal take on that is that they think that is the "acceptable" reaction for a middle-aged, heterosexual woman to have. There's no sense in arguing with people like that. They think the proper reaction to such a scene is horror and rejection of the act; how can anyone argue with such a mindset? Suffice it to say years and years of indoctrination have had their toll on attitudes, and some people are just not willing, nor able, to open up to possibilities. Their loss. I pity them.
I think you've got a point there, well said. It's a shame she can't tell the difference between rape and passion, sex can be rough and agressive when both sides are passionate. And like Cham had pointed out, how can it be rape when Jack was the one who made the first move? He placed Ennis's hand on his c*ck, he grabbed Ennis when Ennis backed away and he was the first one to open his belt buckle. He made what he wanted very clear.
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And also I´ve thought,even if Ennis reactions,whishes and feelings are much more messed,that he didn´t feel like doing as his mate wanted in this moment.IMO, his most impulsive side led him to take Jack,but his most reflexive(?) to say it in some way,side obliged him to mark who was in control then.I mean,he could wish Jack,but his mind told him he must be "the man" in the relationship,both phsycally and emotionally speaking,so his way of making love-having sex I´d say then...-to Jack was only a way to tell him:-"I may have my weaknesses,perhaps these are you,but I´m not queer;I´m a man and I´ going to behave like a man with you,no matter who you´re..." :c) I don´t know if all this makes sense or not,but I think that in this way it can be seen as a possession,a domination,a play of the "male role" without giving any opportunity to tenderness and sentimentalism-this is for women...-,as a way to protect himself and the role he had been thaught to have in life.But never can be seen as a rape,when we can speak about another very great and sad question,that´s not this.IMO.
Is the word MPJ ias looking for " foreplay"? If so, it's something that may be wanted at some times and dispensed with entirely at others - depends on the feelings of the two particiapants but no foreplay though it may = suddenness doesn't = rape.
Is the word MPJ ias looking for " foreplay"? If so, it's something that may be wanted at some times and dispensed with entirely at others - depends on the feelings of the two particiapants but no foreplay though it may = suddenness doesn't = rape.I don't understand this word,welshwitch,sorry...What I meant is that Jack in any case wanted sex,but surely more in SNIT line,it's to say; with more kisses and caresses,not only sudden sex and nothing more.As I said in my former post,showing Ennis which were his feelings and not only his wishes,with another way to arrive to sex...No matter if he said this or another word,what is clear is that he wanted and,so,he took the initiative to put "action" to something that was in the air (perhaps in his case,since the very moment he saw Ennis).And in this sense,I think FNIT is almost the most logical love or sex scene in BBM,bearing in mind the circumstances that surround them the previous hours and also several weeks before;IMO together with the ones between Ennis and Alma,almost like a duty...As a matter of fact,Alma was a conventional country girl whose horizon in life was get married and have children with the man she loved whom she'd live happy the rest of her life.If this situation carries in itself "the marriage duty" she accepted because it's one of the premises she knew she'd have to keep...-letting aside the fact that she was in love with her husband and also she was several years after the divorce-.For me,both scenes are succeeded;one is routine,the other an explosion of desire.And each one of them,bearing in mind the environment.
Not only that, Jack wasn't going to do anything to change the dynamics of that moment. If this what Ennis wanted, this what he'd give him.
It is a sad commentary of our society when a passionate moment in a movie of great beauty can be mistaken for a terrible crime.
No debate or discussion can change a person's prejudices, at least not over coffee at work, only in public debate, early in one's education.
How much of the message of the story would have changed if Jack taken Ennis and not the other way around FNIT? What is it they would be saying, thinking, how would their universe be altered?
How much of the message of the story would have changed if Jack taken Ennis and not the other way around FNIT? What is it they would be saying, thinking, how would their universe be altered?
By letting Ennis take the lead at the point he did, says to me that Jack was still the initiator, the teacher, who was handing the reins over to Ennis, the student, the one who was seeking something unknown to him.
Jack did'nt have time to allow this to be turned into a "jockeying for literal positions" type situation. These were personal, delicate moments. If this is the way Ennis needed to have things , he was'nt gonna complain. Ennis could have stopped at any time being in the dominant position he was in. He did'nt.
I think by handling the situation as he did, Jack was allowing Ennis to freely cross the line on his own, without force , coersion, or misinterpretation. I don't feel Ennis would have accepted the situation the other way around so freely the first time.. Also feel Ennis eqauated his masculinity with "dominance " and control. Jack, being more open and accepting of his tendencies was gonna get it anyway he could. I don't feel him being as threatened by being the "bottom" guy, but who knows exactly what Jack had in mind when he unbuckled that belt? Don't ask me why , It's just a gut feeling.
I did'nt see anybody trying to crawl away once the main event got underway or worrying about wether they'd be "respected in the morning" ;) :)at the time either. It's a hard question. :-\\
By letting Ennis take the lead at the point he did, says to me that Jack was still the initiator, the teacher, who was handing the reins over to Ennis, the student, the one who was seeking something unknown to him.
Jack did'nt have time to allow this to be turned into a "jockeying for literal positions" type situation. These were personal, delicate moments. If this is the way Ennis needed to have things , he was'nt gonna complain. Ennis could have stopped at any time being in the dominant position he was in. He did'nt.
I think by handling the situation as he did, Jack was allowing Ennis to freely cross the line on his own, without force , coersion, or misinterpretation. I don't feel Ennis would have accepted the situation the other way around so freely the first time.. Also feel Ennis eqauated his masculinity with "dominance " and control. Jack, being more open and accepting of his tendencies was gonna get it anyway he could. I don't feel him being as threatened by being the "bottom" guy, but who knows exactly what Jack had in mind when he unbuckled that belt? Don't ask me why , It's just a gut feeling.
I did'nt see anybody trying to crawl away once the main event got underway or worrying about wether they'd be "respected in the morning" ;) :)at the time either. It's a hard question. :-\\
I do certainly think that jack tried to accomodate Ennis too much for too long. I still wonder whether he really had a choice. What would have happened if he broke down much sooner? I know this question has been asked, but I wonder what would have happened, for example, if he had not been so accomodating in the FNIT scene...
I do think this goes back to the idea that, in every relationship, one loves more than the other. I think Jack's willingness to bend to Ennis's desires shows Jack was willing to do more to deepen and to preserve the love realationship between the two. Yes, he finally got tired of it, but, had Ennis met him just half-way, at the end, the fight would have turned into some sort of compromise that was satisfactory to the both. I think Jack was interested in Ennis to the very last, but just wanted some sign that his love was reciprocated, and Ennis wasn't too good at showing those emotions.
Had Jack broke down sooner, certainly it would have givin Ennis more time to reconsider his role in this thing before fate intervened, but I don't think anything different would have resulted. Absent some major catylast, I feel Jack would have just tried to move on.
Since Jack was more accepting, I don't think FNIT would have gotten anywhere had he waited for Ennis to do it. Too many hangups, though I still feel Ennis was glad that Jack did make that first move. Jack would have handled the rejection a lot smoother I suppose.
Had it been Ennis trying the first move like this ? then not have Jack accomadate him? I feel it would have shamed Ennis right off the mountain and never tried it again. Not one for taking chances, he'd be afraid Jack would judge him and think less of him. Also felt Ennis still felt way out of his element at that point though Jack eventually made him feel open to it. Don't think FNIT would have worked any other way than it did Imo , Jack had to make that first move.. Fortunately the feelings were mutual.
What baffles me is how far they got the the first time. Modesty was NOT at play here for such inexperienced lovers. MHO.
Thanks Tpe, you are so correct in saying that perhaps Ennis had thoughts of this long before. In the preceding scene , what I've always felt a continuance to leading up to FNIT. It is the scene, they're sharing a bottle around the campfire and Ennis's shy sideway glances at Jack were telling. To me it spelled a possibe fantasy even then on Ennis's part as well as Jack's . What would it be like? Why would Ennis confess his virginity to Jack at this point? Why the little "hmmmmm" from Jack as if some little lightbulb went off in his head? Why would he try to distance himself from Jack by insisting on sleeping outside the tent?
Perhaps on an un-concious level Ennis could *feel* something inevitable was gonna happen between him and Jack. Something he could'nt control? At this point, complicated Ennis was fairly easy to read. I felt he wanted to express his desire in some way. Frankly, I don't feel Jack expected things to go as far as they did, or he would have supplied the tent with some kind of lube with Ennis taking them "all the way" like this. Maybe he was only thinking in terms of maybe...mutual masturbation<? (please excuse my crudeness here) ,but he was'nt going to be choosy at that point. Anyway everything worked out to each others's liking obviously. Thanx My take.
....
Perhaps I am such a wooz to love the way Ennis stroke Jake's arm in the motel bed, or simply give it a shake or two in response to Jake's expression of love. That is more sexual and expressive to me, than any overt sex act. Or the way Jake whispers into Ennis' ear, softly, Brokeback got us good, don't it?
Brokeback got me good, that's for sure.
Indeed Ennis was trying to resist them but at the same time liking the direction Jack was going. Besides Jack was not taking no for an answer by any means.. Ennis probably thought he was dreaming at first being awoken this way and instinctively fought Jack off.... at first. It did'nt take him long to stop fighting once he fully realized what was really going on. Jack was obviously giving Ennis permission for whatever Ennis felt he wanted to do. I think he had his own fantasy lined up, but I wonder if Jack was surprised that Ennis knew to do as much as he did? I mean, this being his "first time" and all... To me this whole thing smacks of pre-destined, well thought out fantasy come true for both of them...just sayin...
The Elk shooting scene locked it in. That was the moment of trust, admiration, and attraction that lead to the FNIT . . .You’ve got my vote here MHG on the elk shooting scene as a prelude to FNIT. I feel this is a really pivotal scene (as you might have guessed from my avatar) in the evolution of the relationship. Ennis won’t compromise his own beliefs (we’re supposed to guard ‘em not eat ‘em) but, he will do whatever else he is able to do to please Jack and earn his respect and trust. A theme that follows them though the film. This is especially touching after his fall from the horse in which he was wounded, but which he saw as “letting Jack down” by losing all the supplies except the beans. It’s also a wonderfully humorous interaction of the boys joking and laughing where it’s obvious they love being with each other, they’re in love; they just don’t know it yet.
You’ve got my vote here MHG on the elk shooting scene as a prelude to FNIT. I feel this is a really pivotal scene (as you might have guessed from my avatar) in the evolution of the relationship. Ennis won’t compromise his own beliefs (we’re supposed to guard ‘em not eat ‘em) but, he will do whatever else he is able to do to please Jack and earn his respect and trust. A theme that follows them though the film. This is especially touching after his fall from the horse in which he was wounded, but which he saw as “letting Jack down” by losing all the supplies except the beans. It’s also a wonderfully humorous interaction of the boys joking and laughing where it’s obvious they love being with each other, they’re in love; they just don’t know it yet.
tpe and aintfoolin,
You're talking about what I've thought about myself. There's a set of arbitrary signs that would lead us to think that the events of FNIT was already put into motion. As they emotionally and mentally played that dance of seduction, they physically made moves to each, albeit slight, but can be seen.
Remember, when they first arrive with the sheep how far apart they were sitting, then as time went on the more comfortable they were with each other, the more they knew about each other, the nearer they physically got to each other.
The Elk shooting scene locked it in. That was the moment of trust, admiration, and attraction that lead to the FNIT, (I know I might on own on this), because when they were eating the elk meat, they were sitting right next to each other, a bond was formed.
From then on they couldn't stay away too long from each other, or should I say Ennis sought out Jack from that moment on. On that night of consummation of their relationship, too late to go out to them damn sheep, Ennis stay in camp, too damn cold when the fire died out he didn't relight the fire but made it known he was suffering, and Jack calls him in. "Ennis!" "HUH?"
Now whether Ennis was truly shocked by Jack's move on him, he recovered enough to know what Jack wanted and what he wanted. It was the last step to that dance towards each other that had to be completed.
You’ve got my vote here MHG on the elk shooting scene as a prelude to FNIT. I feel this is a really pivotal scene (as you might have guessed from my avatar) in the evolution of the relationship. Ennis won’t compromise his own beliefs (we’re supposed to guard ‘em not eat ‘em) but, he will do whatever else he is able to do to please Jack and earn his respect and trust. A theme that follows them though the film. This is especially touching after his fall from the horse in which he was wounded, but which he saw as “letting Jack down” by losing all the supplies except the beans. It’s also a wonderfully humorous interaction of the boys joking and laughing where it’s obvious they love being with each other, they’re in love; they just don’t know it yet.
Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after* for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.
Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.
He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship and love he had for Ennis.
Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after* for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.I don't think that Ennis felt exactly to have let someone down after FNIT; or maybe yes,his self image of manhood,the image he believed he had to show the others that had been broken into thousand pieces...Moreover,that night act had been a too abrupt,too quick answer to something that was floating in the air,yes; but surely Ennis-and to a lesser extent Jack-didn´t imagine before it arrived in this way,even if he was struggling with himself to make it arrive...Of course,I agree with you in that Jack's gesture played a great role in the necessary acceptation not only of what had happenned,but also of the reasons why it had happenned.And the morning after the SNIT he let his feelings win the confusion he'd had.
Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.
He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship and love he had for Ennis.
Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after* for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.
Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.
He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship and love he had for Ennis.
Great posts here from all, but I'm struck by the contrast in reactions *the morning after* for them. After FNIT there is tension and a sense of shame? on Ennis's part as opposed to the playful wrestling scene following SNIT.
Though I believe it was something Ennis wanted in both cases, what transpired in Ennis's mind to elicit such different reactions to sex with Jack.? Was it Ennis finally accepting that part of himself that made him give in to seduction? or was it something Jack said or did between those scenes FNIT and SNIT to elicit this change of reaction in Ennis?
Jack was'nt the only one giving off *signals* leading up to these scenes, Ennis was too, but after the consummation, it was Ennis who felt he had let someone down. Himself? Jack? or both?It says alot about Jack, going up to meet Ennis in the pasture, following FNIT with the reaction he got from Ennis that morning, perhaps to get answers as well as to give them. I suppose Ennis respected and/or appreciated this gesture on Jack's part.
He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship and love he had for Ennis.
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He could've left Ennis alone to stew in his own confused misery, but he did'nt.I feel that speaks to the sincereity of friendship and love he had for Ennis.
I don't think that Ennis felt exactly to have let someone down after FNIT; or maybe yes,his self image of manhood,the image he believed he had to show the others that had been broken into thousand pieces...Moreover,that night act had been a too abrupt,too quick answer to something that was floating in the air,yes; but surely Ennis-and to a lesser extent Jack-didn´t imagine before it arrived in this way,even if he was struggling with himself to make it arrive...Of course,I agree with you in that Jack's gesture played a great role in the necessary acceptation not only of what had happenned,but also of the reasons why it had happenned.And the morning after the SNIT he let his feelings win the confusion he'd had.
The only things I'd change are these:
I wish we could have seen more of the second tent scene. It was so sweet and romantic.
I wish we could have seen more of the motel scene.
And also, I would add another scene on one of their later trips to BBM.
Other than that, I love the way this film was done, it truly shows that for Jack and Ennis, it was all about true love. It was that deep, pure, unbreakable bonding of souls. Sex, (or more appropriately, for Jack and Ennis making love, because that's what they did) was just one of the ways they expressed their true love for each other. It's all about them having the truest, deepest, most beautiful love, feelings that ran so deep, that they resonated in every part of their minds and souls.
Somehow, I do feel that it was for the best that we were left hanging in SNIT and the Motel scene. I think they became scenes of great intimacy, rather than sex scenes per se.
The only things I'd change are these:
I wish we could have seen more of the second tent scene. It was so sweet and romantic.
I wish we could have seen more of the motel scene.
And also, I would add another scene on one of their later trips to BBM.
Other than that, I love the way this film was done, it truly shows that for Jack and Ennis, it was all about true love. It was that deep, pure, unbreakable bonding of souls. Sex, (or more appropriately, for Jack and Ennis making love, because that's what they did) was just one of the ways they expressed their true love for each other. It's all about them having the truest, deepest, most beautiful love, feelings that ran so deep, that they resonated in every part of their minds and souls.
i dont like to call them sec scenes either really they are love scenes showing the closeness of ennis and jack showing their love was beyond just sex.
All I can say is that SNIT, it was Jack night's as oppose to FNIT, he showed Ennis how to make love.
The motel scene was mutual, both could hardly contain themselves, it was raw passion, love, and sex they've never known with anyone else.
My take.
All I can say is that SNIT, it was Jack night's as oppose to FNIT, he showed Ennis how to make love.
The motel scene was mutual, both could hardly contain themselves, it was raw passion, love, and sex they've never known with anyone else.
My take.
I personally (maybe it wouldn't be best in the film..) would like to see more of that, illustrations people!! ;D But mainly just oral and foreplay. ^-^
Ok sorry that got *o)
Nice thread.
if they had showed more it would have left nothing to the imagination and desuaded some viewers part of the power of the film was some things were left to be interpreted the sex scenes could not escape this rule.
understoodmaybe they did engage in this at somepoint when we didnt see maybe thats not what they liked well never know in away its up to you to decide what they did...
The most important thing was that my mind was wandering ;D
Now, about that foreplay :s)
OH sorry! %&)
Does anyone find it more likely, there in the motel, that Jack had 'switched positions' with Ennis? This sort of thing has never been on the top of my to-know list. I'm more curious about the, well, foreplay of things. But the scenes were cut with artistry. I find it nearly impossible to figure they never went down on each other (hope that's not too blunt, or somehow crude). They are both full of love, and a sex drive..
maybe they did engage in this at somepoint when we didnt see maybe thats not what they liked well never know in away its up to you to decide what they did...
understood
The most important thing was that my mind was wandering ;D
Now, about that foreplay :s)
OH sorry! %&)
Does anyone find it more likely, there in the motel, that Jack had 'switched positions' with Ennis? This sort of thing has never been on the top of my to-know list. I'm more curious about the, well, foreplay of things. But the scenes were cut with artistry. I find it nearly impossible to figure they never went down on each other (hope that's not too blunt, or somehow crude). They are both full of love, and a sex drive..
Our minds wander because what is shown is tantalizing enough for us to want to fill the voids in our heads. Such the wonderful power of suggestion. :)
As for the motel scene, I don't know. I felt that they had switched positions in the SNIT, actually. But again, this is only suggested, IMO.
Yes,I also feel they had switched positions in the SNIT,but only in a "geographic" sense.I mean,changing his lovemaking is something I think Ennis would have never allowed.I don't know if I'm rambling... (^)
Imo , maybe, Ennis's skittish manner in which he saw himself , the role he saw himself in mentally ,is a dead giveaway to me, but I guess it could all come down to preferences. Of course the imagination is a wonderful thing. Bottom Ennis? it's possible, yes but I doubt it. unfortunatly we will never know. That's only my opinion though.
I think changing his lovemaking is something that he wouldn't have allowed in a straight relationship; with Jack he had his moments of openness. I think the "bed" he shared with him was a very rare sanctuary but only in that very moment. Basically anywhere off of the mountain was a different story.
I believe almost everything including this opening of lovemaking, started in SNIT. :)
Imo , maybe, Ennis's skittish manner in which he saw himself , the role he saw himself in mentally ,is a dead giveaway to me, but I guess it could all come down to preferences. Of course the imagination is a wonderful thing. Bottom Ennis? it's possible, yes but I doubt it. unfortunatly we will never know. That's only my opinion though.
I totally agree with you AF!! In the SS we have NOT clues that indicate that Ennis could be bottom.
In SNIT Jack was only on top of Ennis but that doesn't mean that Jack was the top. I mean, how many women make love on top of their partners. And how many men too? A lot, you know that. So the posture Ennis and Jack had in SNIT doesn't matter. Besides, we don't see the rest so later they could change positions again!!!
Well, this is only my humble opinion, but I think Ennis sees himself in a determinate way, not queer and those things, so I think Ennis was always top. But, we will never know.
I think differently from you,Justin.I agree in the sense that Ennis allowed himself some "fantasies" in the very moment,concrete and only then.The bed was indeed their sanctuary,their kind of BBM where they felt and were free; and when things are like this,everything is allowed and is received in good will.But I've never tough in Ennis as bottom,never...SNIT shows him to us for a "geographic position" as I said before,in the foreplay,nothing else.It would be a too long step for him to do... :*(
Read my post below.
I'm not sure I even touch the subject matter with a 10 yard stick... ;D
But yes, for the record, I believe there were moments when Ennis would do everything. And I will be the first to admit that is partly a clumsy act of my optimism. I find it difficult to nail down certain crutches of their relationship. It's the epic story -- always suggesting that the only true shortcoming were the times not spent on "brokeback mountain."
~) but I don't understand English as well as to "enter"( metaphorically speaking,of course... >:D ) in double meanings or some kind of subjects...Well,I DO touch the subject matter...I don't know with whatˇ ;)
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack? Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act. Alma gave in, but did Jack?
Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack? Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?
Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,", it's also "I'll give to you."
Just my humble opinion.
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack? Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act. Alma gave in, but did Jack?
Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack? Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?
Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,", it's also "I'll give to you."
Just my humble opinion.
Yes,I also feel they had switched positions in the SNIT,but only in a "geographic" sense.I mean,changing his lovemaking is something I think Ennis would have never allowed.I don't know if I'm rambling... (^)
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack? Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act. Alma gave in, but did Jack?
Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack? Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?
Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,", it's also "I'll give to you."
Just my humble opinion.
Thank you. :)
And Tammy, sure many guys only like it one way. I just like and tend to trust that with Jack, Ennis got to experience the give/take on all levels, of friendship, lovemaking, and love. He was drunk in FNIT, and both their sexual frustration had been stimulated up until then. It is BAM, and SNIT is "WOAH take it easy, take it in"
I just can't limit my intake of this aspect of Brokeback Mountain to only one side or the other. SNIT will still stay in my mind as the relationship where everything is possible, and perhaps happened.
:cr) to everyone's humble, special, glorious opinion.
Well,I'm afraid I'm the only one in all the forum who doesn't share this opinion about Ennis with so much security... :-\\ Yes,Athena,making love with Jack was a real MAKING LOVE,not a duty as it finished by being in his case with Alma and ,to same extent,in her own case;and that this implies to give himself completely to the loved being.OK,beautiful...But,does this mean that he lost in "horizontal position" several of the fears,cliches and obligations he imposed himself in "vertical position"?.What I'm trying to say it's that the image that Ennis have of himself and of what a man must be-souvenir of his father's contra-education-was a half-distorted and esterotyped one; but always very masculine in the,maybe,worst sense of the word...And bearing in mind that is not the same to take than be taken,I wonder if Ennis could find "bottom"...how could I say it because anyone could get offended?...too feminine,too "queer" or too the ensemble of both?.Could it produce a kind of self-guilt from having "deepen"-oh,sorry... :) - more still in the contrary of this image? A contrary image he tried so roughly to struggle against,no matter how in love he was?.Couldn't it be emotionally destabilizing for him?...Because-and if you allow me to personalising-I know what I don't like my loved one to do to me,no matter what I feel;and I don't have so many paranoias about my image as Ennis had,that's for sure.IM-alone and only-O.
I don't see it that way at all. If Ennis could overcome his conditioning enough to actually have sex with a man, and if Ennis let Jack hold him and touch him the way he did in SNIT and later when we see Jack holding him in the motel room scene...then it's proof that with Jack, Ennis is letting go. With Jack, the "rules" no longer apply. It's like stepping into another dimension for him, where for those times he's with Jack, he forgets about society for a while. I think that's the whole point of SNIT, to show us that Ennis came out from his wall so much with Jack and only Jack, that he "gives in" to him the way he would never "give in" to anyone else. Though I wonder if he "gave in" to Cassie...because like Jack, she had such a strong, outgoing personality.Sorry,but one thing is that Jack holds him in the motel or caresses him in SNIT-even if it reveals a surrender on his part...-and another is that he allows him to do something so far away from a man with Ennis state of mind...I also forget about society when required >:D ,but I always know what I like and what not; and,believe me,this is not an obstacle against the love I can feel for this person.It's simply a question of own taste or,in some cases like Ennis,of principles...Their love could be great and deep,but the same than had its faults and mistakes that we've checked and analysed,they perfectly could have their...rules?let's say it so.JMO again.
Hmmm, I get what you are saying, but I still believe that he was "bottom" in the SNIT. With Jack...Ennis was a completely different person than he was with everyone else. Perhaps I can't articulate it well, but there's something about the way Ennis was with Jack, and not just sexually, but emotionally, personally, etc. as well that shows that what normally applied to Ennis in larger society didn't apply to him at all when he was alone with Jack. I mean I get what you're saying and all, but I still stand by what I said. For Ennis to walk into that tent meant that when he was with Jack the "rules" no longer applied. He had already given up most of his "control" in order to set foot in that tent after all the conditioning he'd gone through in his life. From then on, giving what little "control" was left wouldn't be hard at all. SNIT heavily implied that Ennis was "bottom" that night, and he enjoyed "giving in" to Jack. It didn't have to actually show them having sex to get that point across. They both "gave" and "took" equally throughout their relationship. They were truly equals in every way, and true love allowed them to be. But it's clear that when Ennis was with Jack, he was not like the Ennis we see everywhere else. He truly was completely different with Jack, and that point comes across very well.yer good point. i agree.
Correction above..---"Jack's well-being" :t)you should use the edit tool that way no one knows :P i always make spelling mistakes and when i realise i just edit them in the origional and no one knows :P
you should use the edit tool that way no one knows :P i always make spelling mistakes and when i realise i just edit them in the origional and no one knows :P
thing is we know, because they're still there. :8well spelling isnt my fortay (see i dont know how to spell that word i mean is it fortay fortae i dont know :P)
well spelling isnt my fortay (see i dont know how to spell that word i mean is it fortay fortae i dont know :P)
Well spelling isn't all that crucial, imo -- as long as we can all understand each other.
And for the relevance of the thread, SCREW spelling! Screw it right in the tent, on all fours! ;D
So,don´t we change the sexual scenes,then? #) :8
So,don´t we change the sexual scenes,then? #) :8
I agree, especially your last sentence.
It is a matter of of human nature, how much of our true selves are we willing to comfortably give up ,sexually or otherwise,to another person? and still retain our basic identity? When it come to love most have done things that they said they'd never do in the name of love, but it's a step by step process according to the situation. imo.
I suppose it's almost like couples stepping out of the *boundaries* of *traditional* sex and sampling the many other branches of sexuality. in order to *spice up* their sex lives. If one half the couple feels uncomfortable with their role or position, and reluctant, this can be a turn off. I feel that sex is really all in the mind, where thought processes begin. Keeping this in mind, a *bottom* Ennis in SNIT, even though he came willingly into the tent ready to accept his feelins for Jack and seeking confirmation of them in Jack's eyes, does not mean he was willing to change what/who he basically thought himself to be. the masculine, self-identifying, fearful, reluctant, controlling , and conflicted person he showed himself to be throughout the whole relationship. Even at the expense of Jack's emotional wee-being.
Even in the end, the phrase *bottom" can have various conotations. Either way Jack or Ennis could have *topped* or bottomed* depending on the position. I would'nt change a thing except a longer scene of this, but on the other hand,the element of it being *left to the imagination* of the viewer is inticing, and opens up wonderful, intriquing discussions such as this. Imo, Ennis was Ennis, in and out of the sack. We can respectfully agree to disagree about this and I respect everyone's opinion here. There is a good and fair case to be made from each one's perspective, and I also respect that. It's a tribute to this great film that we can see things differently and contributes to the beauty of this forum. I luv it. Thanx.
I agree, especially your last sentence.
It is a matter of of human nature, how much of our true selves are we willing to comfortably give up ,sexually or otherwise,to another person? and still retain our basic identity? When it come to love most have done things that they said they'd never do in the name of love, but it's a step by step process according to the situation. imo.
I suppose it's almost like couples stepping out of the *boundaries* of *traditional* sex and sampling the many other branches of sexuality. in order to *spice up* their sex lives. If one half the couple feels uncomfortable with their role or position, and reluctant, this can be a turn off. I feel that sex is really all in the mind, where thought processes begin. Keeping this in mind, a *bottom* Ennis in SNIT, even though he came willingly into the tent ready to accept his feelins for Jack and seeking confirmation of them in Jack's eyes, does not mean he was willing to change what/who he basically thought himself to be. the masculine, self-identifying, fearful, reluctant, controlling , and conflicted person he showed himself to be throughout the whole relationship. Even at the expense of Jack's emotional wee-being.
Even in the end, the phrase *bottom" can have various conotations. Either way Jack or Ennis could have *topped* or bottomed* depending on the position. I would'nt change a thing except a longer scene of this, but on the other hand,the element of it being *left to the imagination* of the viewer is inticing, and opens up wonderful, intriquing discussions such as this. Imo, Ennis was Ennis, in and out of the sack. We can respectfully agree to disagree about this and I respect everyone's opinion here. There is a good and fair case to be made from each one's perspective, and I also respect that. It's a tribute to this great film that we can see things differently and contributes to the beauty of this forum. I luv it. Thanx.
I do believe that Ennis was uncomfortable with sexuality in general, yes.
Ennis is still never, ever completely comfortable with sexuality, and perhaps he could never be; he still thinks there's something wrong about it.
We see in some instances where Ennis does yield to Jack. Jack draws Ennis out of himself, but Ennis takes his cues from Jack. He in way lays himself out for Jack, he gives himself in ways he hadn't with anyone.It reminds me when it was time for them to go, and Ennis was upset about coming down from the mountain, he fumbles transparently about the money, Jack unaware of Ennis true feelings, mistakenly offers the loan, and Ennis gets angry. He would be no more that playful Ennis, talkative, joking, part of himelf would be no more, Jack didn't understand, or just didn't see it, he made Ennis that way.
The punch Ennis gives Jack, well I go back and forth on it a lot. But Jack saw Ennis and had Ennis in ways no one else in the world had Ennis, and what if Ennis yield to Jack and more than one occasion. What if it was Jack who was "top" in more ways than one. Was that punch a bid to reestablish himself, get control back of the situation, I think he believed Jack let him down, Jack was light hearted about the whole thing, and so in his mind he went back to what aintfoolin' pointed out.
Just a thought.
:t) to you tooˇ AndAMEN TO ALL YOU´VE SAIDˇ (:)
Another correction on the part of me: Ennis wasn't willing to change into some practices,but I don't think it was at the expense of Jack's emotional well-being.Jack,and whoever is in love,felt good only for fulfilling his lover's wishes and see he was also feeling well by being himself,by giving and be given.That's real love.Thanks again.
P.S.: Don´t worry about your spelling mistakes,because if so,I would have to commit suicide... :8
What I mean is that Jack no doubt wanted more input from Ennis in the proceeding years following Brokeback. Not so much to add to their already "brilliant couplings*, but in a more substantive way concerning the overall reationship. To place more value on it to make a more positive effect. Jack's emotional well-being was at stake imo alot in those yrs following the summer of Brokeback including the parting in Signal and definitly duing the divorce scene.
SNIT was evidence to Jack that the same Ennis who went up to Brokeback was a considerably different Ennis that came down...in more ways than one, but denying Jack and going off to marry Alma, showed that Ennis was basically still Ennis.
I don't doubt that Jack and Ennis could *throw down* with the best of em, but when all is said and done, Ennis was'nt gonna ranch up and give Jack what he desired the most of all. His dream, to live with Ennis and never have him go away again. Great sex is one thing, committment is a whole nother chapter in the book for some people. I think this went directly to the heart of Jack's emotional well-being. That's the :( sad reality..... Just an observation to clarify.
Well, Tammy, MPJ, AF, then let's just agree to disagree. First of all, I'm not saying that being "top" or "bottom" makes one more dominant over the other, or that women, who can only be one way aren't equals, or can't have true love or anything like that. I'm not saying that at all! You completely misunderstood me on that one. I'm just talking about one thing. I'm talking about how I believe that there were indeed times, including SNIT, where Ennis was "bottom". I understand what you are saying, and yes, they would still be equals and have true love if it was one way as well, but I firmly believe that it was indeed both ways with them, that's all. The way I see it, just the fact that Ennis walked into that tent that night, and actually kissed another man speaks volumes about how Ennis had already let go so much of his conditoning that night that would have never allowed him to be caressed by another man if he had been holding on to "control". He had already contradicted everything that he had been conditoned to be by simply being in love with Jack in the first place. I believe that deep down inside, Ennis "yielded" to Jack not only because he loved Jack, but because Ennis himself wanted to do that, and liked experiencing it. He had already broken all the rules society expected of him by simply walking into that tent in the first place, and I still believe the whole point of that scene is to show that the real Ennis came out that night. The stoic Ennis that shows himself that way to the rest of the world would have never walked into that tent in the first place. For him to do that, he was showing his true self, and for him to show his true self, he had let go of the image he showed to the rest of the world, as he would always do with Jack. And that Ennis only and only showed his real self to Jack and no one else. He didn't change himself for Jack, Jack was just able to bring out the real true Ennis from behind the wall that Ennis had built around himself. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree. You see things one way, I see them another way...we can't change that, nothing personal. I just glean a different meaning from that scene. I believe there is a reason why that scene is there, and that comes across very clearly. Ennis completely shed the image he showed to rest of the world that night, and for him to let Jack lower himself on top of him in the first place speaks volumes about what they did that night. But I can't make you change your opinion, and it would be pointless to try. It's clear that all of us here deeply appreciate this movie, and that's what matters most. So let's just close this argument and come back on topic...because I think we left the real topic a while ago. The point is, Ennis could just be his real self with Jack, they loved each other deeply, and SNIT is a beautiful scene where they show their true love for each other. :) And to come back on topic, I would have liked to see more of that scene, but I guess they just left it like that to show how true and deep their love was, and that everything they did was all about that love. I would have loved to see another similar scene like that in the movie, either in the motel room scene or on one of their other trips throughout the years.
This make perfect sense to me, and I agree with you. What sense would it make for Ennis to be the same in the conventional world and be the exact same way in the world he created with Jack? There was a sense of vulnerability and of yielding to Jack that he would have never shown to anyone one else.
Just my take.
Exactly. The "stoic", "fearful", "controlling", "masculine" Ennis we see in the larger society, in the conventional world wouldn't have let a man kiss him in the first place. Of course, all of that was a facade created by Ennis to protect himself in the larger world, to protect himself from society. But with Jack, Ennis could let go of that and just be himself because no one was watching. He was completely different in the world he created with Jack, where it was just the two of them and no one else. It was not him changing...it was just him letting his true self out. Ennis's true self really was vulnerable, emotional, and felt the need to "yield" or "let go". And he only showed that true self to Jack.
So your saying that just because he was with Jack he threw off the fear, the stoicism, the control? his need to self-id with the Ennis that "aint queer"? This is the Ennis that existed before Brokeback and after Brokeback. The man in his basic form. If that was the case and it was all a facade, then Jack should have been able to convince Ennis to ranch up if being in love was all it took. Certainly Ennis fell in love with Jack though I don't feel Ennis was aware of what those feelings were and as early as SNIT certainly coud'nt define them .And yes, he could let go when he was with Jack. But to what degree? This conflict within Ennis is what failed Jack and Ennis, frustrated him, drove him to Mexico, even made him think about quitting Ennis . This need for Ennis to retain his masculinity by denying he was not"queer" is the same need that would probably bring a good time with Jack to screeching halt if he found he was expected to "recieve". In his mind, Ennis has to maintain that masculine role, in the bedroll and out. It's been said that Jack was afraid of *spooking* Ennis just by telling him he loves him, sure he showed him in non-verbal ways , but Ennis could not say it out loud, and Jack WOULD not say it out loud for fear Ennis would bolt. He loved Ennis with all his heart, but it was not enough to counter the fear and shame and Ennis's need not to be confirmed as homosexual. Having said this, I doubt that SNIT was soon enough to expect Ennis to *bottom*, if *bottoming* is what I think you mean. Again we can only speculate, none of us were privy to what actually transpired between them. We can only come to speculative conclusions based on the limited the information we have. Anything beyond that is simply speculation and opinion. I truly respect yours, simply a different one from mine. We can agree on that. :cr) Thanx.
Exactly. Thank you. Finally, someone who understands. :) The "stoic", "fearful", "controlling", "masculine" Ennis we see in the larger society, in the conventional world wouldn't have let a man kiss him in the first place. Of course, all of that was a facade created by Ennis to protect himself in the larger world, to protect himself from society. But with Jack, Ennis could let go of that and just be himself because no one was watching. He was completely different in the world he created with Jack, where it was just the two of them and no one else. It was not him changing...it was just him letting his true self out. Ennis's true self really was vulnerable, emotional, and felt the need to "yield" or "let go". And he only showed that true self to Jack.
Maybe it's just a matter of timing here. What Ennis was *ready, wiilling and able to do at a givin time. Not saying that Ennis , in 20 yrs of meeting Jack never *bottomed*, but it comes down to a matter of the timing. Author AP put into words Ennis feeling in the DE. This tender moment in which we see Ennis as open and free with Jack as we will ever see him, but still Ennis did'nt want to ackowledge it was a man he held, even though that man was Jack, the one he loved. The isolation of Brokeback Mt. of course set him free to be who he truely was, hell he could've tended sheep naked if he so desired, and no one would know, this was so far and away from society in general, but givin Ennis's need to deny what he surely felt towards Jack, is what imo limited him in SNIT. Just one more observation, but I'll give it a rest now . Respectfully. thanx. :ghug:
Totally agree. Annie Proulx said that, just in the moment when Ennis was his true self and free and romantic like he has never been before and he was not gonna be after, he was not able to embrace Jack face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack, a man, he held. So, like I said before, Ennis with Jack, in some way, kept being the scared troubled man he was when he was without Jack. You can love someone so much but you can't loose your most deeply rooted fears and beliefs just the second time you make love.
;D Y'all, I am glad I have stepped aside from this 'debate', really. But I have to just say that I am too optimistic to agree with that.me neither but i dont think thats what tammy was meaning i think she was just saying when a fear is so deeply rooted sometimes just having sex two times isnt enough to get rid of that fear.
To see fear as NEVER having the ability to dissolve? Yeah, that's not me. :cr)
Totally agree. Annie Proulx said that, just in the moment when Ennis was his true self and free and romantic like he has never been before and he was not gonna be after, he was not able to embrace Jack face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack, a man, he held. So, like I said before, Ennis with Jack, in some way, kept being the scared troubled man he was when he was without Jack. You can love someone so much but you can't loose your most deeply rooted fears and beliefs just the second time you make love.
me neither but i dont think thats what tammy was meaning i think she was just saying when a fear is so deeply rooted sometimes just having sex two times isnt enough to get rid of that fear.
There, I wasn't done. ;D
Sometimes, right. And I'm saying the time on the mountain wasn't one of those times. It was the time.
:c)
Jack did crave the oneness of spirit with Ennis. The sharing , and the feeling of *righteousness* of it all. Every time Ennis takes the inititive to show kindness and caring,, Jack's love for him is validated. It is so, in the Dozy Embrace scene.
True, it has absolutly nothing the do with sex acts, but It does go to the chacracter of Ennis when we realize, through the eyes of the author AP. Her explaination of how Ennis felt while doing it. Now I've slept on it , re-read the posts, and I still stand by my perception of events . to me it still is a matter of degree. Taking into consideration, Ennis as a whole, phsycologically. His identity crisis. Jack did'nt seek to change Ennis, who Ennis was , he loved him as a whole person . everything about him is who he fell in love with... but Ennis did have faults and issues concerning Jack. the bashful , "sonavahorson bitch", stubborn mule of a personality he had, the backward akwardness of his manner, along with the the fear, the shame so deeply entrenched in him.., he was definitly set in his ways, when he made up his mind about something, it's woe be to the one who needs to change it . He has limits, lines he will not cross and it's literally a showndown of conflict with him when it came to Jack. He could let go, yes but to what degree? and within what point does all these negative forces in Ennis just disappear? When he was with jack alone? Why could'nt Jack convince Ennis to move? Why was Ennis questioning Jack at the lake * if people know*?, How come Ennis turned Jack away in the the divorce scene, hesitating when he saw the white truck?? What was Ennis's idea behind marrying Alma and dissing Jack in Signal? How come he was SO livid at her at Thanksgiving for knowing the truth? Why? because Ennis saw himself differently than the way he saw Jack. "Boys like you", are different from boys like himself. Just a fishing buddy? nah, It goes to the mindset of Ennis. And who knows the *real* Ennis better than Ennis? How Ennis saw Ennis is what really mattered.
It's an interesting discussion that can go round and round, so I seek to change no minds here. Some say he did, some say he did'nt . no one knows for sure. It's a matter of opinion and perception, based on some limited facts and innuendo. $) ;) :cr)
He dissed Jack at signal, but brokedown, He was angry at Alma yes, but enraged at the "Jack Nasty" remark, "Boys like you" well, Ennis threatens to kill him because he went to someone else. He gives himself away.
Jack was love, but what was it with Ennis? Love or an obession?
Actually, when I think about this I agree with with most of what you say regarding the point about Ennis being able to let go and experience his true self when he was with Jack. , but my mind goes back to FNIT when Ennis 1. bolts up from the bedroll when he feels Jack's hand on him, and fights Jack off. 2. Jack retains Ennis's hand and places it BACK on himself while holding Ennis captive with those beautiful blue eyes. He has chosen to show Ennis his true self by initiating this thing. Speaking with those eyes what cannot be said out loud. I thinking he saying " this is who I am , and this is how I feel about you ", " strongly suspect you feel this way too" and this time Ennis does'nt remove Jack's hand, leaves it there while Jack removes his coat. 3. Shortly after, another brief struggle in ensues, this time Ennis grasps ahold of Jack , giving into what he has felt for some time. The fight goes out of him and imo, this is the point where Ennis actually gives up,*lets go * and embraces his feelings for Jack.
This short sequence of events in FNIT gos to the the conflict with in Ennis between what he wants to do and what he fears. I suspect that he has wanted Jack sexually for some time . He struggles to accept that fact and surely cannot articulate it verbally. Finally he takes control and flips Jack after Jack unbuckles his jeans and Ennis finally gives in to his real desire. He plays out the role as the dominate one.
This is the way Ennis sees himself sexually. It took Jack to get him to this point, but in the end it was Ennis who takes control. He sees having accepted that Jack had some expectations of him, maybe even take the bottom role. he does know Jack wants him to do something with him , but in his mind he's "aint queer". Whatever that means to Ennis himself) Wether Jack was thinking about taking a dominate role or not, Ennis flips him and assumes the position of the one in control. Jack did not end up on all fours by himself or say "take me this way", It's Ennis who pyhsically places himself in that position.( though some say they hear Jack verbally speaks his desire to be taken this way, but that's open for speculation too, as many do not hear it). Ennis decides for him who will take the *bottom* role.
Later on he flips Alma the same way, a reminder of he and Jack ....in he and Alma's bed. A pattern is established here that ,in my opinion is telling of his preference. In my humble opinion.
What Ennis is ready for in SNIT, after much contemplation up in the pasture,is the confirmation of those feelings , the freedom he feels with them, the repoire he feels with Jack, but when he enters, we can still see the hesitant fear he brought with him. He was in there, and he had found the courage to let Jack lead him further, but he was still reluctant to throw his hat to the side and dive right in, to go all out and try everything and anything Jack had to offer. Yes, it was a big step for him walking into the tent, but he took it slow when he got there. Not saying that eventually he did not relinquish the fear and let Jack take him, but I just feel SNIT was too soon.
It would be a beautiful love scene , no matter how things went, but the only thing I would change about this is to see what we were'nt privy to see,... though as it is, makes for very inticing conversation. All perspectives should be respected and to each his own. Gawd, I love this film! <^( <^(
Well I believe the whole point of SNIT is to show that Ennis was indeed "bottom", otherwise they would have done the scene differently.
….he wanted Jack to show him to how to make love, sweetly, romantically, sensually. Ennis was enjoying being caressed, held, and kissed by another man, something you don't see in "raw" sex like FNIT.
I just can't imagine Ennis getting up from underneath Jack in that scene...
I think it's what he definitely wanted, it's the night that Jack showed him how to make love, and that's why the whole scene is there...to show how that night Ennis did what he really wanted to do deep down inside, he "let go".it makes perfect sense to me that he was "bottom" more times than Jack throughout the times they made love, because that's what he truly wanted.
Sure, he was still conflicted about being "queer", but simply to let a man touch him like that in the first place speaks volumes about the freedom Ennis felt that night,
That night, he wasn't compartmentalizing about what was "acceptable" and what wasn't for him out in the larger society..
Well I completely stand by everything I said. Yes, they were both making love in SNIT, and I believe Jack was "top" and Ennis was "bottom" that night. I believe the scene was done that way to show us that. I don't feel SNIT was "too soon" at all. FNIT, the night before proved to be too soon, for Ennis did indeed have sex with Jack that night, but he was still too fearful, he still thought of himself as "in control". The next night it was completely different. That night he completely gave in to his feelings, and it was the first of many times he would let his true self out with Jack. This is the way I see it, and I guess it's no use to just keep writing pages and pages about this. So I will put it to rest. Let's just agree that we disagree. I see it the way I see it, and you view it the way you do, so let's just end this argument. We could write about this forever, like I said, and in the end, we'd still see it differently. So we agree to disagree on this one. :cr)
One more thing I would like to add, that moves on to something else. I think Ennis was very brave for walking into the tent the second night. It was completely monumental for him to do that after all he'd been through. If I was him and had gone through the same, I think I would have been too afraid to even talk to Jack, no matter what deep feelings I had for him. I think people often overlook Ennis's courage.
So I cannot resist to keep commenting, but if you put it to rest, then I will. We could write about this forever, like I said, and in the end, we'd still see it differently. So we agree to disagree on this one. Agreed that we are indeed officially putting it to rest. :cr)
One more thing I would like to add, that moves on off this topic and on to something else. I think Ennis was very brave for walking into the tent the second night. It was completely monumental for him to do that after all he'd been through. If I was him and had gone through the same, I think I would have been too afraid to even talk to Jack, no matter what deep feelings I had for him. I think people often overlook Ennis's courage.
Like in all great art, plays, and literature, no one see, or reads something the very same way. This is a great ride and I've learn so much from you guys, new ideas, strong opinions, I love this. And every day I come here and read more great stuff you guys lay down. Anyway this could be considered OT.
athena brings up something else, when Ennis walks into the tent. I think he really couldn't help himself. He had no choice, that feeling was too strong. Jack I think kind of made it easier for him, "It's nobody business but ours". IMO.
He dissed Jack at signal, but brokedown, He was angry at Alma yes, but enraged at the "Jack Nasty" remark, "Boys like you" well, Ennis threatens to kill him because he went to someone else. He gives himself away.
Jack was love, but what was it with Ennis? Love or an obession?
OT: should we make the passive Ennis question in SNIT a subject for a new thread? Please feel free to create one, if you wish to discuss this further. I think there is enough interest in the subject to warrant a new thread, no? :)
Please tpe, start one, the views of SNIT, are varied, and deeply felt.
hmm that they are thats why i think we should maybe mellow it down part of the beauty of BBM was the fact you can interprate it how you want i really hope no one falls out over this. :-\\
You're right,Matt; maybe the greatest beauty of BBM is that there can be as many interpretations as readers or viewers can be also(Annie said something about this,what's really true...).And the way each one of us can interpretate Ennis opening to love and sex life,both physically and psychically,varies also according to our own experiences or way of seeing life.IMO.
You're right,Matt; maybe the greatest beauty of BBM is that there can be as many interpretations as readers or viewers can be also(Annie said something about this,what's really true...).And the way each one of us can interpretate Ennis opening to love and sex life,both physically and psychically,varies also according to our own experiences or way of seeing life.IMO.
All the more reason to share, I feel, and I maybe alone in this, we all come from different places with different life experience. My experiences are not yours, my views are not yours, but we are here because of one thing our love for this story. With deep respect for each other, courtesy and a good sense of humor, we can share with each other, this is our place.oh yer deffinatly true i think this topic was just getting tired the same points being thrust into the open i think it was just running out of discussion topics if you understand.
Just my take.
Oh get the hell off your soapboxes and go meet in the new SNIT thread and beat each other's brains out, you've off-topiced this enough! :8
<^(
Oh get the hell off your soapboxes and go meet in the new SNIT thread and beat each other's brains out, you've off-topiced this enough! :8
<^(
Gee, thanks, Aintfoolin, tempt me into this mess. Well, it worked. Far as I can tell, there were great interchanges from everybody and anytime people enjoy a subject, it shows up in their posts, which, it did.
As far as being OT (meaning off-topic, not Orangetruck :) ), we had all gone into the very same subjects before and none of the moderators waved the OT flag, so they've been consistent and let it roll. They did not like my warnings on the Gay Bomb, or my sexual affair with the Swedish trawler captain.... so those issues were kinda sorta frowned on. OT, then, must mean VERY OT, to get them riled. Much love --- Tony.
Thanks for the input Tony, ~)Just making sure you did'nt feel your thread got *hijacked* into something other than what you intended. I was starting to think you'd been tempted to go off on another excursion with your Swedish trawler captain ;D on a slow boat to China! .lol but I guess that ship has sailed. ;):cr) I understand the passion ....in both cases ;) The Gay bomb?...well ... ahem...that's another story... &*& ;D
Like alot of this film, there is much open to suggestion. Various perceptions are and should be acceptable. Heath Ledger, God rest his soul, said the film should warrant more questions than answers, he was right.
Lovely :)maybe but im not sure it would be altogether neccisary it would be sweet but i think SNIT lets you know whats going on and anymore would just be going back over old ground, im not sure though.
Would anyone have added another intimate scene similar to SNIT or Motel, between binoculars and departure? Kinda curious about that..
maybe but im not sure it would be altogether neccisary it would be sweet but i think SNIT lets you know whats going on and anymore would just be going back over old ground, im not sure though.
I would leave the scene, SNIT just as it is, open to perception. The only thing I wish to change is more romantic scenes when they get *older* and "seasoned * to each other.I love them older. SNIT is hard to top, but alot can be read into their sexual relationship and their overall personal one to each other when they've had time to really *tune in *to each's likes, dislikes, or preferences.
I would leave the scene, SNIT just as it is, open to perception. The only thing I wish to change is more romantic scenes when they get *older* and "seasoned * to each other.I love them older. SNIT is hard to top, but alot can be read into their sexual relationship and their overall personal one to each other when they've had time to really *tune in *to each's likes, dislikes, or preferences.
I'd have really loved that Ang had filmed the last sex night they had in their last fishing trip. Annie wrote that last night full of passion in a very beautiful way and for me it would have been wonderful to watch that scene in the movie. I think that would have been very sensual, tender and really unique and special. AF, you know I ADORE older Ennis and Jack!!! Jesus!!! (t) (t) (t) (t)
I'd have really loved that Ang had filmed the last sex night they had in their last fishing trip. Annie wrote that last night full of passion in a very beautiful way and for me it would have been wonderful to watch that scene in the movie. I think that would have been very sensual, tender and really unique and special. AF, you know I ADORE older Ennis and Jack!!! Jesus!!! (t) (t) (t) (t)
I and I agree that loves scenes of E&J as older men would have been great to see because dammit those hugs got me every time (t)
They got me everytime too!! <^( <^( <^( I agree with you here!! ^f^
Well , I was thinking about the sex scenes between Ennis and Alma. Hot or not? It looked like traditional sex to me, until Ennis flips her over. Shows how much Ennis craved this type of sex I believe. I suppose he thought about Jack with these goings on. I wonder if she equated ( the way Ennis took her) ,with Jack after she saw them kiss. According to the SS she did not enjoy it. "This is why Ennis wants it this way", It's the way he does with Jack. As seemingly naive as she was, she had to figure this out. She now has to deal with not only the emotional trauma, but the sexual aspects as well. A place where she can't compete even if she wanted to. ..but she remained the "dutiful" wife for some time. Just a thought.I completey agree..that is why he flips Alma over ...very true.. He did crave for the type of Sex he had with Jack...
I completey agree..that is why he flips Alma over ...very true.. He did crave for the type of Sex he had with Jack...
the FNIT is impulsive, rough and with the flow..
In the latter half of the film they were shown holding each other and sleeping in the tent..I wish that scene was more despcriptive in any way..maybe just staring at each other for a longer time or talking or just cuddling each other...
However, this move is from Anne's and the Ang Lee's Perspective and what they have shown is superb.
I think the latter scene was done that way top show how comfortable they had become with each other.Tpe, Thats also a good point of view of growing old in love and it makes sense ...what do u personally think about it??...I agree that its right that in latter half there r no rough and impulsive scenes...
My old deceased friend Robert loved that latter scene the most of all the scenes where they were together -- because they showed them like what it would be "growing old" in their love. He actually said that he would have found kissing and cuddling in that scene a distraction -- but that was just him. However, I wonder whether this feeling would be shared by the older viewers of BBM, because I had another elderly friend (slightly younger than Robert) say the same thing about this scene...
Tpe, Thats also a good point of view of growing old in love and it makes sense ...what do u personally think about it??...I agree that its right that in latter half there r no rough and impulsive scenes...
they r comfortable with each other and the love shows anyways
I would change one scene--the one when Jack and Ennis first arrived at the motel: It wouldn't have to be too graphic, but just showing the beginning of wild uncontrolled "four-years-of-waiting" erotic sex would have been superb, especially after viewing the reunion embrace and "best on-screen kiss of 2005"!
Personally, I also appreciate the level of comfort that we see in that scene. It was the closest we ever got to see them in quasi-domestic bliss. In it, the passion had retreated a bit, but the love still burned.agree...the love will always be there wherever they may be..ever...
agree...the love will always be there wherever they may be..ever...
well thats what made it a mature love story in the 2nd half...
although I feel that Jack did want to be more in Ennis life...
Just wanted to be there...am not saying physical but emotionally and he wanted to just belong to him and be a part of his bigger part of his life....
I think the level of comfort that scene showed is appreciated even more when we do realize that the relationship was far from perfect even in that late stage. But that is so much like life and RL relationships, no? It is hard not to be moved by the recognition -- for any one of us here who had ever been through a relationship that lasted in spite of all adversities.
who wouldnt want a 6 hour movie...id pay alot of money to watch a 7 hour BBM ith all the sex :P
ya,, in real life no relation is 100% perfect..we all need to work on it..and so did they but that does not matter...love never sees perfection..it just sees and feels love...
So much they could have changed about the past... but it does not matter as whatever they experienced kept them going..they never strived to gain perfection in their love..they just wanted to feel that love...
I agree Tammy. Having so little time together throughout the 20 yrs. I feel that the passion never died down. It would've been nice to have had something during the Motel scene and before the "spooning" in the tent which I assume was their last night together.
ok I know this doesnt exactly qualify as a "love scene" but I would make the shirtless wrestling a lil longer show what was going on under that hat, and take out the pervy skeezy aguirre and it would be even more perfect especially what was going on under that hat :d)I know what you mean,sportstalk,but I think that Ang left it so in order we can imagine what happenned without seeing it directly.BBM is full with double meanings,things left to the viewers opinion,gestures and glances that speak more than words or acts,IMO.But for me it's really a love scene,because we know what has happenned that night and we can suppose what is happenning in their bodies and souls.
Oh yeah, Thomas I understand what you're saying and I agree, but well they sure no longer romped about in the meadows, as Aguirre observed in the summer of 63, but with being 39 and not longer kids they sure rolled into the dirt, there in the open, near the fire, not even wasting time to get into the tent. For me that is the same that romp about in the medows, friend. ^f^
Without getting up he threw deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truths and lies, a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt.
Thanks everyone for the wonderful and interesting exchanges.
Tammy, thwe best way I can describe this is that at that late stage, their love had burned away all that was superfluous. This doesn't mean that the love itself was no longer passionate. But we have to understand that after so many years, the OUTWARD appearance/expression of passion in love and in sex was no longer florid or luxuriant. What remains is what is essential, and the last confrontation shows that this same love had not lost any of its essential meaning, even if they no lognger romped about in the meadows, as Aguirre observed in the summer of 63.
I hope this makes sense to you!
Tammy strikes again.
Way to go! On that there long post back there. I have to agree. If I only saw my heart and soul two or three times a year you better believe one or both of us ain't walkin right till next we meet. Ennis full throttle.
You got a way with them words.
"lil darlin"
Yes, I too was so hoping for a hint of passion upon arriving at the motel--an explosive 4-years-of-waiting melee for us poor peasants! Just another explosive kiss and unfastening of shirts in the truck (after checking into the motel) would have been wonderful--so that they could become immediately shirtless after closing the motel room door! No need to be anatomical--just bring on that thundering train! &**)very true...that would make sense...a scene of passion in the motel room..that would have made things more hot and passionate..however,, never the less the scenes r awsome
The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent. If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there.I agree completely
Getting it on doesn't stop at 40.
The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent. If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there.
Getting it on doesn't stop at 40.
The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent. If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there.I agree, and it would have been nice to have seen some affection going on with them in between Jack touching Ennis' cheek in the reunion trip and the ending scene where they were holding each other in the tent (btw that scene was way too brief). Some hugging and kissing would have been nice because we know they had to do lots of it. I still don't see why they deleted that scene where they embraced at the beginning of their last trip.
Getting it on doesn't stop at 40.
ok I know this doesnt exactly qualify as a "love scene" but I would make the shirtless wrestling a lil longer show what was going on under that hat, and take out the pervy skeezy aguirre and it would be even more perfect especially what was going on under that hat :d)
The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent. If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there.
Getting it on doesn't stop at 40.
Yeah, kind of saying "all is right with the world as long as we have each other on this Mt."...I know I just love to be "spooned". I feel so protected by my husband; what a wonderful, peaceful feeling.
Yes atalley: "Spooning" with my husband, my lover, or my Chihuahua Carlos can be sooo warm and soothing...Awwwwww <^( <^( <^(
;)
I think what a long-term relationship brings to the table is a sense of belonging -- of being relaxed in one's love, and knowing that you are at peace with one another and with one's passions.
Yes,IMO,Ennis and Jack had got this sense of relax,of easiness being with one another; this doesn't mean that the passion was not present in their private life,however.But,let's say,somehow they had grown old together.
I think what is more important than the sense of passion is the quiet sense of being one with someone. The embrace in that scene inside the tent before the last confrontation is symbolic of that oneness. It is not a coincidnece that what Jack craved for to the very last is quiet contentment of the Dozy Embrace.
Yes atalley: "Spooning" with my husband, my lover, or my Chihuahua Carlos can be sooo warm and soothing...
;)
Awwwwww <^( <^( <^(
This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason. We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover. I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other. Hope this makes sense.
I think what a long-term relationship brings to the table is a sense of belonging -- of being relaxed in one's love, and knowing that you are at peace with one another and with one's passions.
But to be honest, I've never experienced both with one man. :-\\ Just hate "baring my soul" as Heath/Ennis liked to do. In my youth I had a few steady boyfriends, but there was only one whom I truly loved, and he is not the one I married! He was 16 and I was 17 (and leaving for college) so I just let him fade away! We were, as Jake said, "a ying and a yang, which together made a whole". We were romantically and passionately in love even though I never "knew" him in the Biblical sense. Regrets, I have a few... :(
I was wondering if any other Brokies have had similar experiences, or if some of you are living the dream! ^f^
Pattyjean, it's OT to this thread, but you can check the stories here: :)
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3771.0
This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason. We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover. I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other. Hope this makes sense.
Pattyjean, it's OT to this thread, but you can check the stories here: :)
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3771.0
This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason. We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover. I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other. Hope this makes sense.
It certainly makes sense to me, MG. That sense of peace through proximity is not easily achieved. It must be built up over the years...
And tpe, I like what you say about peace through proximity. It's tricky for me because while I understand, there was a time with someone special when I felt he would be in my life, through all its phases. Practically, he was as far as my eyes would see. It didn't mean I saw less; he was more or less the opaque proximity of my world.
What gets me about the insight you shared is "peace", because now I can see the peace I felt with him could have been nothing more than the necessity of light. It was somehow like second nature to know the most beautiful infinite thing would be to share intimacy with this person. With Ennis and Jack, it was like this lunar, reserved spot one could escape to, somewhere out of this world yet under each step he put on the earth.
It's like looking for means to survive on a planet and only finding oxygen. To find the real peace that you suggest only builds with time, I think one has to know the trust that he may stray, that the other may as well. Time goes on, and he keeps coming back. Sequentially, love kept further reaching out, and it always returned; each pulsation enlarges the circumference around where it all started. And one day it grows into that world, that piece of peace one may eventually claim. Like Thomas says, I think it must take time. You got to breathe.
That's what Jack and Ennis (sometimes barely) did. They kept that "light" they found on Brokeback that summer, and they held onto it as they watched not their lives mold to the material world around them but their futures forever reserve their infinite spot in the mountains.
Thanks for sending me through a loop, pal. I hope the reasons why I agree with your statement came through (^)
Thanks for sharing this, orangetruck.
I think that for me these days, it is not always a matter of finding peace with oneself and another -- it increasingly becomes a search for equilibrium. I hope I am not going to confuse you here, because I find it difficult to express to others what I mean by this.
Sometimes, finding equilibrium turns out to be finding peace in the arms and love of another. Sometimes, it means a parting of ways -- even if it means reaching a separate peace. Sometimes, finding equilibrium simply means a flux between peace and strife. It can be most unstable, even though one is at rest with oneself and with others.
There is no one sense to the meaning of finding equilibrium. It depends on the person or persons involved. And it can mean a certain movement -- as in the case of Ennis and Jack, up until that movement is arrested.
But the search for equilibrium may not always bring peace, although we can reach a kind of quietude through time, distance, and separation.
The key is to realize that equilibrium is a resting point that we can perhaps go back to again and again, or something wherein we continue to move on in search of the next station.
Either way -- there is a sense of being on a journey. It is through this sense of movement that we all seem to strive to glimpse the light.
Hello orangetruck.
At the risk of going so very out of topic on this thread, I will say that yes, I think Ennis reached a kind of equilibrium in the ned. It is this equilibrium that allowed him the grace to accept his daughter's invitation. If at all, he is certain of his love and faithfulness.
Linking this with the subject at hand, there is one scene that I would not change -- and that it SNIT. At this moment, I can argue that Ennis was ata point of equilibrium between his love and his fears. We see later that this equilibrium didn't stop him from drifting away from what was really in his heart. The sense of movement did not exactly bring him to the place he and Jack had hoped for/longed for. But in the end, Ennis did reach some form of equilibrium, if only because he had made a separate peace.
:)
Like not exactly reaching what was hoped for, but being teetered onto that step closer to his daughter.
If stoic Ennis didn't know love before, that is the difference now. What now seems to have been robbed from him for so many years, could now be seen as the weight that pulls the blinds just sufficiently from his eyes..
He would probably come to know that peace existed, could have remained. Just maybe not in this lifetime.
Yes, I don't think it ended the way he had hoped it to end. But isn't life like this most of the time? Yes, this equilibrium allowed him to respond to his daughter's love. It gave Ennis a place to stand, in terms of love.
The equilibrium didn't exactly lift the weight from him, nor did it open his eyes completly to the light. Nor will it likely bring him peace in his lifeime. The same can be said about the more intimate scenes with Jack: they didn't exactly resolve things for him or give him lasting peace. But we should undertand that it is through the absence of any lasting peace that brought them together over and over again. It is sort of paradoxical -- that their love for each other only made them to reach out for what was beyond them. In the end, I think that both had to come to terms with a separate peace.
Nor do I think the love he had with Jack will bring peace in the future. Paradoxical, good way to put it.
I think the blinds were pulled up just enough to accept that he loved Jack, and couldn't deny his daughter relative support.
If they were bound to separate peaces, then the coming together to be intimate in the only place where it was safe, put them the closest to each other. I think because they didn't know what was happening or understand why they came back to Brokeback, this couldn't be called peace. Quite common really, that love and relationships don't always create peace.
But on the looking back, Ennis, now knowing what he's got since it's gone, understands how vast a place Brokeback had offered. It made his present atmosphere feel lonely and small. Ya seen his trailer looking out into that field? And he doesn't have this other world in the mountains to escape to now, which could be why he was reluctant to step outside. In SNIT Ennis knew what he was facing as far as crossing a line went. But he didn't know it was love he'd slipped into. What I find most paradoxical about this is that he could face his love dead on right there in the tent but it would take its leaving 20 years later for stoic Ennis to get the full affect.
I may be hopeless, as I'm inclined to find the closest thing Ennis could equate withpeacewho he was, is this memory, this knowledge, this power of a better place.
In a way, the sex scenes, especially the early ones back in 63, were done in a manner that already points to future ambiguities/incongruities that would develop between them. Part of the reticence in these scenes speak of some degree of separateness that had not been breached. This is why I think that the sex scenes -- though they may not be totally satisfying -- have a sure purpose in marking both intimacy and alienation. We see the roots of separate peace in these scenes -- even in the inability of Ennis to look at Jack and recognize that it was Jack he held in his arms (as in DE) or who was in bed with him (as in the Motel scene.)
Interesting comments, orangetruck. I am sorry iof my comments about a separate peace may have brought us here on shifty ground. As to your comment about premeditation and inhibition, I see what you mean, and I must admit that these are more than plausible. I think we certainly cannot underestimate the Earl and Rich story and its effect on Ennis. I think above all, "separation" traslates here to ALIENATION. IMO, we see this aleination even in the most lyrical of sex scenes.
But is it really an overly "safe" approach to the two shirt? ;)
There is an undeniable lyricism to it, after all. :)
The we are in agreement then. :)
I agree with you Molly,as regards to the scenes you marked.Speaking about the motel scene too,I love the way it has been made;it's true that the s.s. description is that of a sordid setting,but also a little more real-a 3rd class Wyoming motel couldn't be a very nice place then...-.However,I think that letting aside the setting's look allow us to center ourselves more in the two boys,the feelings they have for each other and the way we receive the sensations all this gives us.What makes beautiful this little room is not its ornaments,but the love its walls are "breathing" in this very moment.
Yes, I had also been discussing this "shift" in the motel scene elsewhere. I love the way you said "and the way we receive the sensations all this gives us". I do think that the film version is more SENSUAL than the one envisioned in the ss. Nothing distracts from the 2 of them. There are no superfluous "ornaments" and distractions.
Thanks,Thomasˇ Well,I only hope to have made sense with this phrase.We must keep our attention in the two of them and the love they're feeling and the one they made us feel for both of them too.Even what they're saying in that moment is superfluous;there're only Ennis and Jack,Jack and Ennis,loving each other.Who needs to know how the room is?...
Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true! :*(
PS: ~) to oppose!
Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true! :*(
PS: ~) to oppose!
By the time of the reunion, Ennis knows about heterosexual love and sex during those four years away from Jack. He almost consumes Jack when they did meet again. his passion was alive again. whatever valley he felt himself in before, Jack brought him back to that mountain mentally and physically, and there he wanted to stay not wanting to risk anything more. IMO.
After listening to Heath on interviews, he was showing his nervousness in SNIT by not keeping eye contact. (Heath said "I knew I had that to give").
I would have loved another scene before them "spooning" when they were older.
Thanks,Thomasˇ Well,I only hope to have made sense with this phrase.We must keep our attention in the two of them and the love they're feeling and the one they made us feel for both of them too.Even what they're saying in that moment is superfluous;there're only Ennis and Jack,Jack and Ennis,loving each other.Who needs to know how the room is?...
At that point, I doubt either one of them bothered to scan the room much except one target.. the bed ..for a very long period of time!. Perhaps when they finally came up for air and smokes were lit ,maybe they bothered to noticed the lamps and drapes. By the looks of both of them, this was intense. Ennis looks exhausted, drained, and barely able to stay awake..and we all know what that means. :d)
If I were to change a sex scene it would be FNIT, I've often thought that it woud've been nice ( for me at least) if Ennis had'nt flipped Jack over and the whole scene of love-making took place face to face. Jack may have been willing, but Ennis not so much. In any case the sex scenes were tastefully done , but with these two gorgeous cowboys, the imagination runs wild you see. ;)
Again, more love scenes when they got older would have been delicious."Brilliant couplings" indeed. Thanx.
Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true! :*(
PS: ~) to oppose!
I think, too, that during most of their time on the mountain that first summer, Ennis is somewhat in denial - I think AP had written as much in the SS when speaking of the dozy embrace: "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held." Of course in the movie, the SNIT contradicts this, since we know they are very much face to face. But in looking at the SNIT, I notice that Ennis has trouble making direct eye contact with Jack - he's either looking down, or his eyes are closed, as you mentioned, Loreen. I think that once we get to the reunion, Ennis has opened up more to his love for Jack and is more comfortable with face to face encounters, IMO. Ennis is full of fear - he's unsure who he is, he is terrified of what might happen if they're discovered - maybe avoiding face to face contact makes it less "real." Lots of food for thought!
To put it more bluntly, Jack cared only to smell the scent of Ennis above the reek and rancidity of the sordid room. The human senses can be so selective/relative. And as the poets have said, the smell of a lover's armpits is perfume.
By the time of the reunion, Ennis knows about heterosexual love and sex during those four years away from Jack. He almost consumes Jack when they did meet again. his passion was alive again. whatever valley he felt himself in before, Jack brought him back to that mountain mentally and physically, and there he wanted to stay not wanting to risk anything more. IMO.
Love it.
I think for me the bottom line is there's an acute intimacy in taking in one's lover by way of any of the 5 (6) senses, scent psychologically being the strongest connection? :s)
After listening to Heath on interviews, he was showing his nervousness in SNIT by not keeping eye contact. (Heath said "I knew I had that to give").
I would have loved another scene before them "spooning" when they were older.
I feel that sense is the most primitive -- we certainly smell before we see.
Even if we were to change the motel scene to make it more explicit, I don't think it would gaim much. Perhaps it would even lose. Like the sense of smell, there is power in sensing before seeing.
I like how taste is so dependent on smell. And how, like MG says, Ennis was ready to consume Jack, tasting him, inhaling him. Like the act of his soul getting into Jack's as physically close as possible. Scent, like that especially of a dog's, is so closely tied into memory, yes? And come to think of it, with every sniff came the power of their first Summer, the birth of their love. I remember seeing the motel scene and perceiving Ennis' damp curly head and cute little ear as something almost newborn. I found it very sensually refreshing and certainly not just because they had just made love again. But more along the lines of being perfect. It was warm and aromatic.
The act of "eating" someone during love-making certainly encompases ALL the senses. Sight, smell, taste, and touch. We see it all in the reunion kiss. No need to change it, IMO. It has everything, without having the need to be any more explicit.
I find the same rule applies for the motel scene as well. No need for change. At least not for the sake of storytelling.
I think the reunion scene was like confirmation that love had happened and never left. And the motel scene was like confirmation that sex was only part of the equation, as we see them fingering the potential to keep each other in their lives. I see both these scenes as subtle to terrific hints for Ennis to understand what it was that had gotten a hold of him. Though he does have layers to unravel and he doesn't quite unwind completely before he finally discovers the whole jigsaw hanging in Jack's closet. - or does he come to grips in the diner with Cassie's crying eyes?
No we don't need any more sexual graphics littering the story. And I think you say it perfectly when you describe the sort of subdued love making we see just before FC. On the same side of the token however, I do think different variables of the sexual and sensual acts could have been crafted into the plot to produce the same affecting movie, what especially with the cinematography and sensuality in those significant "sniffs" playing as anchors to the plot; More importantly still - no - the movie certainly wasn't sexually inept. Again, it was more along the lines of just perfect. MO :)
OT, I agree with you. I think BBM is a perfect piece of art. I think my yearning for certain additions to the movie is just that - a yearning - maybe a sort of voyeuristic approach - I want to see more. I've fallen in love with Ennis & Jack's love and I long to be a part of it. I find comfort when I go to the BBM that exists in my mind and I see them exchanging little loving moments throughout their relationship. It's funny - whenever I get the same sad and lost feeling, I can just pop in the DVD and for some reason, the sight of the BetterMost beans cans heating over the fire brings me to a happier place. I kind of think, oh good, things can be idyllic and lovely for a while. Sometimes I have to stop the DVD right after their reunion because I'm not prepared to go to the sadder side of things. Ang and everyone involved did a spectacular job IMO; very high highs and subterranean lows.
Off topic - are you the one with the big blue eyes and facial hair? I was looking at pix last night. Hope to meet some of these lovely Brokies in person someday! :)
Well, a more voyeuristic approach can certainly add spice -- even to the scenes that are much more suggestive and subtle. Isn't there a delightful element of frisson in the scene where Aguirre spies the two of them at "play"? :)
I think there is always a delicate balance with the desire to be more explicit and the beauty that is inherent in a more subtle/suggestive approach. I personally prefer the latter, but I am not closing the door on the former. Had they added some new scenes or made the existing ones more explicit, I cannot honestly say that I wouldn't like them. The proof is in the eating. :)
Great points you bring up, TPE! I absolutely love the shirtless wrestling - my mind continues on even after the camera cuts away once Jack pulls Ennis' hat off and they kiss.
You are right about how taking the more subtle approach can make for a better piece of art. "Jaws" comes to mind; Spielberg always intended to have more shots with the fake shark, but couldn't - which in the end made for a more Hitchcockian, intense, and thrilling movie. And we all have our imaginations, right? ;)
Great points you bring up, TPE! I absolutely love the shirtless wrestling - my mind continues on even after the camera cuts away once Jack pulls Ennis' hat off and they kiss.
You are right about how taking the more subtle approach can make for a better piece of art. "Jaws" comes to mind; Spielberg always intended to have more shots with the fake shark, but couldn't - which in the end made for a more Hitchcockian, intense, and thrilling movie. And we all have our imaginations, right? ;)
OMG. I would make the first one wayyy longer! >:D LOL
Aguirre spoiled the fun much too soon... I think this scene was masterfully done! We initially don't realize that we see this scene through Aguirre's eyes...
Last night I watched BBm again! $)
I noticed something that never have before, even it was always somewhere in my thoughts. I found it strange. (If someone had already mention it, ~) , but it's not easy to catch with everything here in the Forum)
Well, it is just about the intimate scenes - they are all cut, stopped, blocked in a very aggressive way.
FNIT - after the intercourse, we just see them fall down, and it's less than a second. The shoot is so big, can't have a good picture about what was going on.
SNIT - No overture in front of the fire, just Jack waiting half naked. Short kissing is suddenly interupted with their wrestling watched by Aguirre. So aggressive cut! Firstly, even the wrestling doesn't have a closure (as Hippie has already mentioned), and secondly, we get the feeling that they were caught by Aguirre the very next morning after they made love, which is not the case!
Reunion kiss also interrupted by Alma...
Well, this is the way I see it, and maybe Lee had a message with this kind of scenes, but I always wanted to see the closure of these precious moments.
Also - the last night before the tragedy (I already mentioned it), I would've liked to see them in the tent facing each other. No sex, just a deep intimacy.
But hey, it's just me! Maybe I'm wrong .... :)
Bluemountain, :t) !!
I'm glad you agree! :cr) $)
I guess I always think of "spooning" as the contentment shown after sex. :c)
This is how I really would change the sex scenes:
Replace Ennis.... with ME! ;D >:D MUhahahaha! *runs away*
:8
LMAO that's awesome! $)
This is how I really would change the sex scenes:
Replace Ennis.... with ME! ;D >:D MUhahahaha! *runs away*
Get in line, BlueMountain!!!! ^-^ You are too funny! :8
What's spooning? ???its like when two people lay in bed one behind the other kind of fitting in to one and other
Last night I watched BBm again! $)
I noticed something that never have before, even it was always somewhere in my thoughts. I found it strange. (If someone had already mention it, ~) , but it's not easy to catch with everything here in the Forum)
Well, it is just about the intimate scenes - they are all cut, stopped, blocked in a very aggressive way.
FNIT - after the intercourse, we just see them fall down, and it's less than a second. The shoot is so big, can't have a good picture about what was going on.
SNIT - No overture in front of the fire, just Jack waiting half naked. Short kissing is suddenly interupted with their wrestling watched by Aguirre. So aggressive cut! Firstly, even the wrestling doesn't have a closure (as Hippie has already mentioned), and secondly, we get the feeling that they were caught by Aguirre the very next morning after they made love, which is not the case!
Reunion kiss also interrupted by Alma...
Well, this is the way I see it, and maybe Lee had a message with this kind of scenes, but I always wanted to see the closure of these precious moments.
Also - the last night before the tragedy (I already mentioned it), I would've liked to see them in the tent facing each other. No sex, just a deep intimacy.
But hey, it's just me! Maybe I'm wrong .... :)
Well, quite often, leaving many things implied is much more effective on our imaginations. Spelling things out can be rather disappointing, especially if we had something more in our minds. The scenes are tantalizing enough to be more than effective on our imaginations...
I assume that an average moviegoer would find those scenes enough or maybe MORE that enough. I personally needed a little bit more. Who knows, maybe it would've really spoil the movie, or make it too simple and too shallow, or.... Hm... not easy! Anyway, I needed more of the two :c) :^^) together! At least a proper closure of some scenes!
As I said, I'd also like to see some materials never shown in the movie. Of any kind! That would be an opportunity to see some more of Heath who really entered my heart so deeply and whose lost I take with a deep regret! $) :\'(
I guess I always think of "spooning" as the contentment shown after sex. :c)
Well, I understand your wanting more. :)
But you are right in waht you say here -- for the average movie-goer not to be distacted, these scenes were enough. It was a careful balance that paid off, in the long run. :)
Well, it's enough to say that BBM was shown on our TV 2 times, always after midnight! In my opinion there are far more malignant things shown in early hours that kids are just swallowing and learning from, but these 2-3 scenes the authorities took as an pornography (well -almost!), so BBM was hidden into the deep night.
Obviously the scenes were not so innocent as I take them now... :P
Well, it's enough to say that BBM was shown on our TV 2 times, always after midnight! In my opinion there are far more malignant things shown in early hours that kids are just swallowing and learning from, but these 2-3 scenes the authorities took as an pornography (well -almost!), so BBM was hidden into the deep night.
Obviously the scenes were not so innocent as I take them now... :P
:)
I do think that BBM calls for a great deal of maturity to be properly appreciated. But I suspect that a lot of adults don't have the requsite maturity, and that is a pity. For some of them, the sex scenes might have been unpleasant -- this owing kore to prejudice than to true understanding that it's about love and not the sexual act per se.
I think that,letting apart the fact of some more love's gestures when olders,the movie has the scenes that it must have to result equilibrated enough.It's a love story,a unlucky love story that must be appreciated like this,with all its nuances, not a seudo-porn movie to satisfy some people's libido-there're many other films to this...-.Ang himself said once that if he had added some hotter scenes or prolongate the already done with more sex,some people would have been very happy,but that he had abused of his actors and had changed for bad the spirit of the story.And I agree with him...
I think of the motel scene, Ennis laying on Jack. Jack's arm around him as Ennis caresses it. any barriers Ennis had were dropped. Ennis in a vulnerable state thinking a simple punch ended it, and Jack thinking brokeback was alive again, and got them good. It was all mental and emotional after that. The pull these two had for each other, and then yanking it away, it amazes me that they could keep this up for twenty years. And without one or the other going nuts, or one killing the other. This was their life, and what kept them alive. It took fate to end it, a bad tire, or a mob take your pick. It went so far beyond the sex act, or how many times they got to do it. jmo.
:clap: I think y'all are probably right. Ang did use a good balance. I hope they did have intimacy in their later yrs., as I think they did. I did wonder why they weren't closer together in the final tent scene.
I think that,letting apart the fact of some more love's gestures when olders,the movie has the scenes that it must have to result equilibrated enough.It's a love story,a unlucky love story that must be appreciated like this,with all its nuances, not a seudo-porn movie to satisfy some people's libido-there're many other films to this...-.Ang himself said once that if he had added some hotter scenes or prolongate the already done with more sex,some people would have been very happy,but that he had abused of his actors and had changed for bad the spirit of the story.And I agree with him...
The maturity of the approach is that is integrates the sex scenss so beautifully to the development of the characters and the story. They are not superfluous or added to just titillate. They are essential to the story.
I think of the motel scene, Ennis laying on Jack. Jack's arm around him as Ennis caresses it. any barriers Ennis had were dropped. Ennis in a vulnerable state thinking a simple punch ended it, and Jack thinking brokeback was alive again, and got them good. It was all mental and emotional after that. The pull these two had for each other, and then yanking it away, it amazes me that they could keep this up for twenty years. And without one or the other going nuts, or one killing the other. This was their life, and what kept them alive. It took fate to end it, a bad tire, or a mob take your pick. It went so far beyond the sex act, or how many times they got to do it. jmo.
Lee was obviously searching for the balance. the result is pretty much good, and as I said - quite enough for an average moviegoer. Anyway IMO there is a lack of intimacy, especially in their later years, and brutally interrupted scenes on Brokeback.You're right,but maybe thinking over it,this lack of intimacy in the later years is nothing more but "another kind of intimacy",I mean;they have arrived to a point of understanding each other Even without talking,a fully shared comfort,both emotionally,sexually and psychologically speaking.The simple fact of being together after so many years is a sample of this intimacy,that one can feel,not necessarily see...Even if some affection gestures more were appreciated,they're beyond all this at this point,I don't know if I'm explaining well enough...
When I think over and over, I realise that Lee's scenes had an effect on viewer mind. Keeps the story going, and make us contemplate about the events in between two scenes! Hm... he had his point!
You're right,but maybe thinking over it,this lack of intimacy in the later years is nothing more but "another kind of intimacy",I mean;they have arrived to a point of understanding each other Even without talking,a fully shared comfort,both emotionally,sexually and psychologically speaking.The simple fact of being together after so many years is a sample of this intimacy,that one can feel,not necessarily see...Even if some affection gestures more were appreciated,they're beyond all this at this point,I don't know if I'm explaining well enough...
As regards to the "brutally interrupted scenes on Brokeback",I suppose you're referring to the love struggle after SNIT-because the others,IMO,aren't so,but logically not shown in their totality...-.Well,I've always thought that we watch this scene so because Ang wants to compare the two boys idyllic world of love and freedom on the mountain with what is hoping to both of them when they come down;the representant of this world of intolerance and denies is Aguirre,no?,who is spying them and putting a sudden end not to the scene itself,but to the way we're watching it,with love and empathy towards them.I think it's cut the way it must be;Ang doesn't do anything without a "because"...
Ennis & Jack weren't quite 40, so I'm sure the physical relationship was still there...maybe even better; not as hurried, anyway.
Ennis & Jack weren't quite 40, so I'm sure the physical relationship was still there...maybe even better; not as hurried, anyway.
Uh, look guys, forty is not dead, and the need for physical intimacy last well beyond that. This was one of the things that Ennis got upset with Jack, that Jack was giving what he felt was his away. It mattered to him, he threaten Jack because of it. but what we found out it went so far beyond that, the inability of Ennis to come to terms with the emotional part of their relationship, that he was in love, that he did love Jack, that Jack was his life for twenty years, and he couldn't deal with it because of what he was conditioned to believe since childhood.
jmo
Uh, look guys, forty is not dead, and the need for physical intimacy last well beyond that. This was one of the things that Ennis got upset with Jack, that Jack was giving what he felt was his away. It mattered to him, he threaten Jack because of it. but what we found out it went so far beyond that, the inability of Ennis to come to terms with the emotional part of their relationship, that he was in love, that he did love Jack, that Jack was his life for twenty years, and he couldn't deal with it because of what he was conditioned to believe since childhood.
jmo
I hear that! It's incredible (in the not so incredible kinda way ::) ) what television chooses to censor. In fact, I find it rather crazy.
Well, you'll be really surprized with what happens here- All of the kissing, romantic, nuditiy and sex scenes are cencored (obviously) but NONE of the GRAPHIC violence is! Like- Brokeback Mountain got BANNED while The Texas CHAINSAW MASSACRE is show uncencored on TV! ^*()
Ok so if I could change a sex scene, I'd go with the motel. I would pan out to show the full length of both their bodies. What can I say, I'm that curious ^-^
I know, how frikken corny is that?? It's pretty damn preschool, imo.
Let's allow homocide and death via fast, colorful cars with tight spoilers on the back :) - but let's ban the love between members of one sex because clearly it's not as natural. *^)
Ok so if I could change a sex scene, I'd go with the motel. I would pan out to show the full length of both their bodies. What can I say, I'm that curious ^-^
Ok so if I could change a sex scene, I'd go with the motel. I would pan out to show the full length of both their bodies. What can I say, I'm that curious ^-^
I would find this VERY distracting! ;)
Distracting? :s) It depends on what you want to concentrate! ;D
Distracting in the sense that we would miss the entire dialog in that scene! ;D
Not to mention the overuse of the slowmotion feature on DVD :)
Distracting in the sense that we would miss the entire dialog in that scene! ;D
Oh,the dialog?? Well, if you'd want to miss the BEST part of that scene :d), you just listen to the ^*) dialog! :8
;D Well, I think the dialog is a bit important. ;)
I think there would be a veeeeeryyyy few dialog,only these phrases we can imagineˇ x***x However,I don't think we were too interested in the dialog precisely then...I don't know why... #)
I always think what they had was love. Sex was part of the whole package. I wish the SNIT in the tent scene had been longer
About the SNIT scene, I couldn't agree more! ;)
Even so, between E&J was not only love but also an enormous lust! Not being with Ennis for so long time, Jack was feeding his lust with another men, but it was never the same, cause he and Ennis had a special bond - friendship, understanding and love! They first match their souls, and then their bodies. And that's the only way I can accept this relationship!
Anyway, we were just joking in the previous posts! ^f^
I think,as Trekfan,that what there was between them was love,but sex is also a part of love.As Jake said,sexual intercourse was a way to reaffirm their intimity; and I'd add that a way of saying each other what not always-or hardly never...-they were able to say with words.Their relationship was a total communion of body,heart and mind,they filled each other sexually,emotionally and sentimentally; only in this way their relationship could endure during so many years in spite of all the adversities.
Eeerrrr...Loreeen...were we just joking in the previous post?As a matter of fact,I was speaking very seriously... >:D
I always think what they had was love. Sex was part of the whole package. I wish the SNIT in the tent scene had been longerI agree trekfan..I think we all wish that :)
I think there would be a veeeeeryyyy few dialog,only these phrases we can imagineˇ x***x However,I don't think we were too interested in the dialog precisely then...I don't know why... #)
I always think what they had was love. Sex was part of the whole package. I wish the SNIT in the tent scene had been longer
Well would all of you welcome a bit more vocalizations? I mean: moanings and groanings?
THis comment may look flippant, but I do seriously bring this up. In fact, a lot of the mainstream sex scenes are glossed over in an auditory sense -- many of them are presented with only some background music to accompany the actions...
It took me a while until I understand your view point. So, if I'm right u're asking if we would like more vocalizations in the movie? I assume it means exchanging words, which could be easily understood?
Hm... I'll have to think it over... :s)
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption.
Later...
Not necessarily words -- it could be wordless sounds of love-making...
I think the tent scenes were cut away too fast as we could of seen Ennis and Jack together for longer and that would of made the ending much more unbearable...
I think the tent scenes were cut away too fast as we could of seen Ennis and Jack together for longer and that would of made the ending much more unbearable...
If I may say, love-making sounds are as different as people who make love... Ennis just couldn't make some normal sounds as it's an reflex of his inner state. And we all know how his inner state was unstrung! So, I' don' find that part so strange. Jack as well as Ennis was restrained... not as much as Ennis, but surely he wasn't 100% open to making love with Ennis. Well, at least I think so! :s)
^f^
When I watch the scenes of them together I look at the way Jack grabs Ennis's arm in the FNIT, to pull him closer into him. I think of in the SNIT the way Ennis caresses Jack. I think of the reunion scene when in front of god and everybody Ennis couldn't contain himself himself and slaps Jack's hat off his head and kisses him more passionately then he ever kissed Alma, or when their in the motel room and Ennis lays in Jack's arms, obliviously spent, and at peace.
These scenes in itself are so moving, and so emotionally charged as close to showing love between two men, as pure as simple as any love scene between men and women. It could be argue it could be longer, but why? When it hit us that first split second on seeing it, that these two were in love, and "we know the rest". JMO
When I watch the scenes of them together I look at the way Jack grabs Ennis's arm in the FNIT, to pull him closer into him. I think of in the SNIT the way Ennis caresses Jack. I think of the reunion scene when in front of god and everybody Ennis couldn't contain himself himself and slaps Jack's hat off his head and kisses him more passionately then he ever kissed Alma, or when their in the motel room and Ennis lays in Jack's arms, obliviously spent, and at peace.
These scenes in itself are so moving, and so emotionally charged as close to showing love between two men, as pure as simple as any love scene between men and women. It could be argue it could be longer, but why? When it hit us that first split second on seeing it, that these two were in love, and "we know the rest". JMO
But it was supposed to be a "quickie, correct? I think the feeling the director wanted to convey was hurried and a rather clumsy passion. If you don't mind me saying so, it is like a first-timer climaxing prematurely, without consideration for where the partner was...
Well, we do get some of these sounds in the FNIT, but they were a bit hurried, shall we say... Jack groans and Ennis grunts. I would think that the sounds would be different had we heard them in SNIT. It would have been less hurried and probably more tender...
I could envision the SNIT to be longer, but I agree with you as far as the other scenes are concerned. In those scenes, speed and capturing the moment was essential to encapsulatye their excitement and even recklessness. To have prolonged it would have meant losing this edge.
Likewise, to elongate it would have been like turning the quite lyrical into Morse code.
;D Love the image on this one. You mean SNIT, orangetruck, correct? Hmmm... You make me reconsider...
Well, we do get some of these sounds in the FNIT, but they were a bit hurried, shall we say... Jack groans and Ennis grunts. I would think that the sounds would be different had we heard them in SNIT. It would have been less hurried and probably more tender...
I could envision the SNIT to be longer, but I agree with you as far as the other scenes are concerned. In those scenes, speed and capturing the moment was essential to encapsulatye their excitement and even recklessness. To have prolonged it would have meant losing this edge.
:P
No I mean the other ones like reunion kiss. :)
Well, that could be right. I don't know, but I'd be willing to check! ;)
SNIT was covered with a music, and it took me a while until manage to I hear Jack saying "come on!" just before "provoke" Ennis to kiss him. Still, I believe the music cover was there to express their feeling, which I reckon they still couldn't let loose. Ennis was suppressed a lot, even not knowing what to do and why doing it? He only knew that he just has to enter the tent. Anything that happened later, was an adventure for him. Jack, on the other side was easy going, but still looking at Ennis's eyes try to figure out where he's standing. What Ennis wants, will he totally give over? When he saw that Ennis is not going to run away, he gently invited him for a kiss and embrace.
I strongly believe that both of them were scared of their feelings, so restrained, facing the emotions never expected to happen, that they dare not to produce any louder sound. Even their first kiss was so loud, that they kept silent for a while. Then Jack comforted Ennis saying him even 3 times that it's alright, everything they do is alright. Maybe at that moment they were Finally relaxed, but BBM soundtrack has covered their sounds, and that did not sound bad IMO .... <^( <^( <^(
This is quite interesting. And while I feel the same about the score music resonating their feelings, I'm not entirely sure I follow the regimen you give their personal sounds in this scene. I think the sound of their first kiss didn't so much slow their roll as the overwhelming feeling of passion did. Maybe like a moderate shock would stall the farmer who pisses on an electrical fence. They were going to relieve themselves that night in the tent, but I think their lack of initial sounds represent a quiet soul searching and discovering. -- imagine someone at a winery taste testing different sophisticated wines. There's that moment in time where all the senses hone in and cannot be bothered; notice we do at least here delicate smacking of lips and tongues and a sort of primal breathing through the nostrils as their mouths lock..
This scene turns me on so greatly, sorry if I lost the point somewhere. :s)
OK. Still, I love the wording all the same! :)
Yess! Both! Sound and passion too of the first kiss! It was the whole package!
Did they know how good it would be? Maybe flair, but they were not sure! They were exploring each other, as showed in Ennis caressing Jack's body.
Of course, all the scene, from the beginning to the end IS SOMETHING BEST I've ever seen in the movie! I agree with you there OT! :^^)
It's just a thought, loreen. Of course, each of us veiwe the scenes differently, and certain things may appeal to us more than it would to others. :)
Aren't they? ^f^
I've said before that SNIT reaches farther than any sugar coated Hollywood love scene I've seen. It's so down to earth yet it's playing Tennis with Mars as it's ball! <^(
The timing and/or rapture of the "quick" passionate scenes is what effectively incorporates them into the bigger picture, yes? They could have easily been diluted or overshadowed..
There is a lot in BBM and the sex scnes in particular that is coded. The terminology you use is quite apt. And yes, the coding is also manifest in how they are incorporated into the bigger picture -- the meanings gain an extra layer of richness.
I don't unerstand what you mean by "coded".
For instance, to elongate:
Take FNIT and stretch it into SNIT. I can see FNIT is stunningly lyrical and (not that SNIT isn't) SNIT is more coded. If only as far as their chemistry is allowed.
Or even vise versa, depening on the perception.
Take Mary Had a Little Lamb.
No, no, not literally, put her down! :P
Take the old rhyme Mary Had a Little Lamb, in English, and it's very easy to read. You could even probably predict what comes next and next. Now take the same rhyme and replace all its letters with numbers and all you get is some unfamiliar pattern which you're not sure how to read.
That said, I find in SNIT that Ennis and Jack did not know what they were doing like the back of their hand. It was a bit foreign to them. Hence, they took it slower than say, FNIT.
I hope that helped?
Again, this is an interesting point of view, orangetruck. The natural thing for me is to associate lyricism with SNIT and not with FNIT as more coeded. But thinking about this right now, I know what you mean. FNIT can really be looked at as a careful "dance" -- in this sense, it can be thought of as lyrical. And Jack taking Ennis to his breast in SNIT is definitely coded: one thinks subliminally of a "mother and child" -- and the same coded image is repeated in the Motel scene...
Loreen...I've always looked at the 2 scenes in this light too.
Hi Loreen...I see the FNIT as their passion (lust) taking control. As for SNIT, I see their love & getting to know 1 another more intimately. <^(
When I watch the scenes of them together I look at the way Jack grabs Ennis's arm in the FNIT, to pull him closer into him. I think of in the SNIT the way Ennis caresses Jack. I think of the reunion scene when in front of god and everybody Ennis couldn't contain himself himself and slaps Jack's hat off his head and kisses him more passionately then he ever kissed Alma, or when their in the motel room and Ennis lays in Jack's arms, obliviously spent, and at peace.
These scenes in itself are so moving, and so emotionally charged as close to showing love between two men, as pure as simple as any love scene between men and women. It could be argue it could be longer, but why? When it hit us that first split second on seeing it, that these two were in love, and "we know the rest". JMO
Again, this is an interesting point of view, orangetruck. The natural thing for me is to associate lyricism with SNIT and not with FNIT as more coeded. But thinking about this right now, I know what you mean. FNIT can really be looked at as a careful "dance" -- in this sense, it can be thought of as lyrical. And Jack taking Ennis to his breast in SNIT is definitely coded: one thinks subliminally of a "mother and child" -- and the same coded image is repeated in the Motel scene...
I also think that on some level anyway, these scenes are probably intentionally short, meant to leave us with that same sense that Jack and Ennis themselves always had of never enough time, never enough, in order for us to better understand how they felt and give us a deeper entry into their hearts.
Hm.. this is new for me. I never looked at their relationship, embrace and kissing like some coded family relations. I only saw the pure lust, but not only physical, more as a result of their mental adhesion to each other. It's only that Jack was braver side ( probably experienced) who gave Ennis courage to approach their sexual contact as something natural and normal. That's why he is the initiator, and leader in the game, as well as comforting side in all situations.... Ennis played well too, in this sex game! <^(
Anyway, I'll chew on this one! It's worthy! ^f^
Yes, and also they were so drunk and spontaneous in FNIT that their emotions, their history and their consciousness didn't at some level exist. In SNIT, you could not just burn the material and go to bed. This was one man shaking hands with the other. That can be lyrical in one sense. In another, it can be coded as every move in SNIT did require the strict attention (or spirituality) of each man. I think it all depends on the magnifying glass being or not being used, which goes for both nights.
I also think that on some level anyway, these scenes are probably intentionally short, meant to leave us with that same sense that Jack and Ennis themselves always had of never enough time, never enough, in order for us to better understand how they felt and give us a deeper entry into their hearts.
For me, FNIT was more about pure lust. The SNIT was as much about love as it was sex, IMO. I think this progression is good as it is. And by "mother and child", I did not mean it was something about family relations; it was more about Jack being protective about Ennis, as a mother who reassures a scared and uncertain child.
In FNIT I also see a lot of their love and connection, I see Jack consoling Ennis, waiting until he's calmed down after the first shock ( ;) ), trying to caress his face, and Ennis who is firstly defendind by grabbing Jack's shirt, later also touches his face with love and sensual expectations... they had it all there, it was just not so open as neither of them (particularly Ennis) had no courage to put 2 and 2 together. (Unfortunately, the same bad math in the future years cost them a whole beautiful world of sweet life...) :( But IMO, even it was the pure lust, the feelings were there, very visible IMO.
As for SNIT, well - there are often 2 sides in a relationship, one braver, seducing and comforting, and the other one - shy follower, who need encouragement and consolation. In SNIT was more than obvious who's who! ^-^
Amazingly, the whole package - their emotions and their physical experience J&H perfectly passed to the viewers. I already said this: I felt like I was there in the tent, that miraculous it was! :clap:
Interesting point of view on FNIT, loreen, because I had always looked upon FNIT as an almost desperate act on Jack's part. It is as if Jack is telling himself: "To hell with caution. I'll have him, whether or not he's ready to face the music..."
Still, what you say here makes sense, although it differs slightly from my own impression. Very interesting.
Well, no need to oppose that much. :) IN the FNIT, both of them were like springs that had just been released of all their potential energy, and it is reasonable to see that all that energy was not just sexual energy. You are probably correct in saying that there is a lot of emotional potential energy involved here. It was both an emotional as well as sexual release...
And for guy like Ennis only touching Jack's face in such a manner is a BIG sign of his affection. ^-^
Sexual side of the scene is more than obvious (it is sex!), but we just need a time to figure out other lovely details, meticulously prepared by Ang Lee and H&J.
FNIT- Jack was doing what was natural, it wasn't so much as a come on. more of a natural thing in his mind, he wanted Ennis's touch, they mentally bonded, emotionally bonded. it all led to him in his mind to the physical. It just took Ennis a minute longer to figure it out. That's why Ennis out of instinct didn't puunch the hell our of him, but out of instinct held on to him.
We've look at this scene as Jack coming on to him. it wasn't a come on, more like a reaching out to a lover in the night, we've all done this without thinking, we turn to our lover and it just happens. It's Ennis who had to learn what this meant. It always took Jack to show Ennis the way. I love this scene.
JMO.
Well, we are only shown the foreplay in SNIT, and not exactly the sex (as in FNIT) Still, the beauty of this scene lies exactly in its romanticism and lush but quiet emotionalism. It is good as it is, IMO. :)
FNIT- Jack was doing what was natural, it wasn't so much as a come on. more of a natural thing in his mind, he wanted Ennis's touch, they mentally bonded, emotionally bonded. it all led to him in his mind to the physical. It just took Ennis a minute longer to figure it out. That's why Ennis out of instinct didn't puunch the hell our of him, but out of instinct held on to him.
We've look at this scene as Jack coming on to him. it wasn't a come on, more like a reaching out to a lover in the night, we've all done this without thinking, we turn to our lover and it just happens. It's Ennis who had to learn what this meant. It always took Jack to show Ennis the way. I love this scene.
JMO.
Yes MG! ^f^
I agree with this -emotional and mental bonds were already there. And Jack, as a leader took a step more to lead their relationship to the physical.
The scene is great, because it's the one when all the walls between Ennis and Jack crumbled down.
In SNIT they only remove the wall ruins and every possibility was open. (^)
Loreen,I love the way you compare the two nights: In SNIT they only remove the wall ruins and every possibility was open. Even if I think that the only possibility that was open that second night was the one of discovering themselves in every sense and feel free as they wouldn't be anymore.
MPJ, :t)
The possibilities were open 100%. It was their choice/mistake to limit those possibilities with unnecessary boundaries. :(
:^^)
And they didn't.Not that night,nor these happy times in BBM.What follows,it's another history,unfortunately.
It's really sad to think of it. How the love was managed for 20 yrs., the love they had was was defintly right and right there but since when can love be managed? We cannot say what we will or won't do for it huh? Right or wrong , love lead them.
During FNIT, I wonder if it dawned on Ennis that all the time on the mountain that summer, Jack never mentioned a woman, girlfriend or fiance'. Ennis himself had one, and spoke of her breifly to Jack. Jack spoke of his father, and his mother, rodeoing , Ennis's upbringing seeking the reasons why Ennis was so closed up etc. around the camp fires, ..and so the subject becomes ...Did Jack have prior sexual experiences with men?. I mean, he did make a play for the clown...Could some of the same opinions discussed in the "Was Ennis Gay?? thread apply to Jack as well? Maybe this deserves it's own thread....but was Jack gay? Just askin....Thanx.
It's really sad to think of it. How the love was managed for 20 yrs., the love they had was was defintly right and right there but since when can love be managed? We cannot say what we will or won't do for it huh? Right or wrong , love lead them.
During FNIT, I wonder if it dawned on Ennis that all the time on the mountain that summer, Jack never mentioned a woman, girlfriend or fiance'. Ennis himself had one, and spoke of her breifly to Jack. Jack spoke of his father, and his mother, rodeoing , Ennis's upbringing seeking the reasons why Ennis was so closed up etc. around the camp fires, ..and so the subject becomes ...Did Jack have prior sexual experiences with men?. I mean, he did make a play for the clown...Could some of the same opinions discussed in the "Was Ennis Gay?? thread apply to Jack as well? Maybe this deserves it's own thread....but was Jack gay? Just askin....Thanx.
It's really sad to think of it. How the love was managed for 20 yrs., the love they had was was defintly right and right there but since when can love be managed? We cannot say what we will or won't do for it huh? Right or wrong , love lead them.Thats a good point u have made aintfoolin and a thread must be started on Jack's past...Please do the honors..Thanks so much ^f^
During FNIT, I wonder if it dawned on Ennis that all the time on the mountain that summer, Jack never mentioned a woman, girlfriend or fiance'. Ennis himself had one, and spoke of her breifly to Jack. Jack spoke of his father, and his mother, rodeoing , Ennis's upbringing seeking the reasons why Ennis was so closed up etc. around the camp fires, ..and so the subject becomes ...Did Jack have prior sexual experiences with men?. I mean, he did make a play for the clown...Could some of the same opinions discussed in the "Was Ennis Gay?? thread apply to Jack as well? Maybe this deserves it's own thread....but was Jack gay? Just askin....Thanx.
If I remember correctly, Ang always intended for SNIT to be in the Movie so the audience would "connect" w/ their love.
But I am glad that they had FNIT all the same. It was more abrupt and a bit unnerving to many viewers, but I think it showed how clumsy and awkward things were at the beginning -- and understandably so.
I forgot to say: glad that you're back tpe! Hope you had a great time! ^f^
The more I watch, the lovelier FNIT looks like. Clumsy, but adorable! <^(
No matter how abrupt,awkward or,even violent,FNIT can seem to many viewers; as everything in the movie,it has a reason of being.An explosion of something that was growing between them,that couldn't be expressed by words and that,with alcohol help,was said in a more radical way-to see it in some way... ^-^.What opened up the doors to the realisation of something deeper after the first moments of confusion and tension,and that led to SNIT.For me,both scenes are perfect in their meaning and way of express them.
Oh, how I agree on this one mpj! <^(
There is only one thing - I would always like to see a bit more of SNIT (https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi410.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp186%2Floreent%2Fsmiley%2Fblushing.gif&hash=53a03f1cca1dfc5580b05e0bf556b27f960b1dd4) at leat a few seconds....
About the reunion kiss. I would like to see when Ennis slams Jack on the wall and kisses him - to actually see the kiss, that is - from a different angle! To see their lips come together, not only Ennis' backhead! :i
<^( <^( <^(
Aha,you're nasty,Loreen ˇ >:D But you see their lips come together right after the wall kiss...And how ˇˇˇ :d)
If we must be nasty then,I'd say that I had liked to see the beginning of the motel scene,just to realise the strenght of their passion... ::)
A bit more of SNIT would've been nice, for sure. OK, OK-maybe a little more in the Motel, also. ;)
Shame on you Atalley! %(
MPJ and I are very bad influence to you! >:D
;D ;D ;D
Who,we?... #)...Ah,just let her be enjoying ˇˇˇ >:D
No matter how abrupt,awkward or,even violent,FNIT can seem to many viewers; as everything in the movie,it has a reason of being.An explosion of something that was growing between them,that couldn't be expressed by words and that,with alcohol help,was said in a more radical way-to see it in some way... ^-^.What opened up the doors to the realisation of something deeper after the first moments of confusion and tension,and that led to SNIT.For me,both scenes are perfect in their meaning and way of express them.
Shame on you Atalley! %(
MPJ and I are very bad influence to you! >:D
;D ;D ;D
There is just never enough time of J & E loving in the film <^( but we can use our vivid imaginations :d)
There is enough suggestion in the sex scenes, I would say -- enough for our imaginations to chew on. :)
Well, I always thought that the motel scene was all after the fact -- not exactly a vivid sex scene, no?
Really?! I didn't know what was happening! #) ;D
Well, it was after the facts, but it was also (with reunion kiss included) the most passionate moment of all. And it wouldn't hurt anyone if they showed us a few seconds of that passion! ;) #)
Personally, I look at it first of all as a relaxed and intimate moment between the two of them --- as post-coital scenes are wont to be. But yes, there is enough suggestion of the sweat and smell of sex to keep us on our toes.
To be stubborn - I'd like less to torture my imagination, and more to enjoy the presented, but... we have what we have, and we can only hope that one day we'd be allowed to see some more of their scenes. Any, of course!
I do agree Thomas...I can smell the room at the Hotel in my imagination. ;D
But I think our imagination is better than any literal presentation. :)
I do agree Thomas...I can smell the room at the Hotel in my imagination. ;D
Can you give us a hint how it smells? ;)
I'm afraid that not necessarily good... >:D In this sense,the movie is far more romantic,but the s.s. is more realistic.
Oh, how I want to reply this one .... but I am polite and #) ! So, I won't! ::)
How do you want to? So,just do it ˇ... >:D But remember; if what you are going to say it's not more polite than the silence,don't reply ˇ. %&)
And you call yourself a #) ?! :*(
;D ;D ;D
To be honest - I had some ideas myself, but being a real #), I'll keep silent!
Sure it's not more polite than the silence. But if it's only silence we want to hear, wouldn't our life be so boring?
I wanted to say about smells - natural and excitable! :d)
I won't enter any details, but you got the picture I think. :i
;D I am just saying that it is hard to beat the imagination, especially when it comes to scenes such as this! #)
And why not? I am also sure that dirtbiker would agree with you. :)
As for the motel room smells, I am glad we don't have to deal with them...
So, right now I don’t want to change any sex scene, but, like always, I wish I could add a pair of things, but not exactly in the sex scenes we know, but in other scenes, though it has something to do with kisses or scenes where there are kisses, so I hope this is the right thread for it. ^f^
You see, I’d really like to hear that utterly sweet and heart-melting “little darling” in the reunion scene. Those little words say so much about Ennis, his feelings for Jack and his inability to control his emotions after fours years without Jack. To hear Heath’s honey deep voice saying that tender endearment would have been totally beautiful, haunting and breathtaking. <^( <^( I get goosebumps just thinking about it…. (t) (t) (t)
Then, I’ve always wondered how Ennis and Jack said goodbye the last day of their fishing trips. Did they only hug tight? Or did they kiss too? I’d really love to see a goodbye scene. That last time they see each other, I’d like that Ennis, instead of saying Jack that he can’t make it in August, knock over Jack’s hat again, hold his face between his hands and kiss him hard and long, again, just like he did in the reunion scene. (t) (t) (t)
I’m a kiss girl. I need more kissing between our boys. That's precious, sensual and erotic as hell and truly stunning. <^( <^(
Especially >:D 's imagination, ha? :)
Dirtbiker? I wouldn't know about him, but as an old member you are probably more familiar.
I suppose you agree too! ::)
So, right now I don’t want to change any sex scene, but, like always, I wish I could add a pair of things, but not exactly in the sex scenes we know, but in other scenes, though it has something to do with kisses or scenes where there are kisses, so I hope this is the right thread for it. ^f^
You see, I’d really like to hear that utterly sweet and heart-melting “little darling” in the reunion scene. Those little words say so much about Ennis, his feelings for Jack and his inability to control his emotions after fours years without Jack. To hear Heath’s honey deep voice saying that tender endearment would have been totally beautiful, haunting and breathtaking. <^( <^( I get goosebumps just thinking about it…. (t) (t) (t)
Then, I’ve always wondered how Ennis and Jack said goodbye the last day of their fishing trips. Did they only hug tight? Or did they kiss too? I’d really love to see a goodbye scene. That last time they see each other, I’d like that Ennis, instead of saying Jack that he can’t make it in August, knock over Jack’s hat again, hold his face between his hands and kiss him hard and long, again, just like he did in the reunion scene. (t) (t) (t)
I’m a kiss girl. I need more kissing between our boys. That's precious, sensual and erotic as hell and truly stunning. <^( <^(
O: I don't know what you mean. Everybody here knows that I am a #)
;)
He is one of the mods, who has posted similar sentiments in and around these threads. So don't be surprised if you see one or more of his comments here. I think there is a thread somewhere here about the smell of Jack (or something like this) and you can read similar comments there. :)
Well, these are not exactly sex scenes, but I afree with your sentiments. :)
I suspect that when they said goodbye after each fishing trip, both probably just hugged at the most. My suspicion is that they preferred something not very demonstrative.
I suspect that this is pretty much old school. One of my good friends who was of the same generation as they lived a relatively open gay life, but for some reason NEVER wanted to be seen out in public holding hands or kissing his boyfriend...
Well,I don't know if they only hug in each goodbye,being as they were alone in the mountain;this was the only place where they could be really themselves...But,anyway,I agree with you in that some tender love and lust demonstrations could have been nice to see,specially after their passionate reunion scene.It had been more in rapport with the feelings they had for each other after 4 years of separation and also along the years.
O: I don't know what you mean. Everybody here knows that I am a #)
;)
I am with you here babe! More Ennis and Jack in later years, in love and lust! :d) That's what we want! #)
Oh...let it be,let it be... >:D
Of course,more love and wish demonstrations,because life doesn' end at 23 ˇ ;)
Well,I don't know if they only hug in each goodbye,being as they were alone in the mountain;this was the only place where they could be really themselves...But,anyway,I agree with you in that some tender love and lust demonstrations could have been nice to see,specially after their passionate reunion scene.It had been more in rapport with the feelings they had for each other after 4 years of separation and also along the years.
Please, name 2! :)
OT: Ennis and Jack! :)
:8 :8
You beat me here! I never expected this! :8
I should have asked for 3 or 4 names! :s)
:clap:
I would have added Alma and Lureen then! ;D
Back to the topic: strictly speaking, FNIT was the only sex scene in the movie, correct? Well, perhaps we should add SNIT and the Motel scene, but you really don't see them directly engaged in intercourse in both of them. Is this too narrow a definition for a sex scene? Perhaps the lack of explicitness in the SNIT and motel scenes makes some of us feel that they should have shown more?
I always thought that all the sex (and in any kind intimate) scenes were not enough and in a way brutally cut of. But also, there are more average moviegoer who believe that these scenes were more than enough. They were the pointer for Ang Lee.
Maybe they should have made 2 versions -one for the majority, and the other for Brokies. Our would be 3-4 hours long.... ^-^
I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene ::) I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway! %( ;D
I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene ::) I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway! %( ;D
I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.
I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.
Lureen and Jack on their first "date" and the FNIT, Lureen was Jack, Jack was Ennis, but fast or slow he liked the direction she was going. He found acceptance. He married her. Poor Jack. JMO
I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.
Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... ::) But as always he did just fine! :)
I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.
Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... ::) But as always he did just fine! :)
:8 ;D True! But remember when Ennis mentioned "You might be a sinner, but I myself havent had the opportunity" but do you thing that Jack actually had "sinned" before? :P :s)
I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.
Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... ::) But as always he did just fine! :)
Touché. I find that it did reinforce that they were trying to abide by society's standards and going and being with women. Haha, brave Jack. I don't remember, did he look surprised when she just tore her shirt off? Could that be why she said "Do you think I'm to fast?"
I always thought that all the sex (and in any kind intimate) scenes were not enough and in a way brutally cut of. But also, there are more average moviegoer who believe that these scenes were more than enough. They were the pointer for Ang Lee.
Maybe they should have made 2 versions -one for the majority, and the other for Brokies. Our would be 3-4 hours long.... ^-^
I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene ::) I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway! %( ;D
I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.
Lureen and Jack on their first "date" and the FNIT, Lureen was Jack, Jack was Ennis, but fast or slow he liked the direction she was going. He found acceptance. He married her. Poor Jack. JMO
This is a very good parallel.
I believe that Lureen was the best thing that could happen to Jack at the time. He was broke, alone, not very successful in rodeo, "busted up".... and there she was - young, beautiful, loaded, and-she liked him a lot at the beginning. I can't imagine what would Jack do and how would he manage to do anything in a such a desperate situation he was then. Ennis was already married, and not marring Lureen would mean nothing in that matter. So, IMO Lureen was the good choice at the time.
During next 17 years .... there were some chances with Ennis which Jack lost. Unfortunately.
I also think that love-sex scenes with their wives were necessary to see the difference that,somehow,there was between their own relationship and the one they have with women;what they wished to do and how to live and what they must do and to live.Also to see how influenced both of them were in their relationship with women for the bonds both of them had created up on the mountain-remember the first sex scene with Alma in their first home,f.e...-.Sometimes we seem to "hate" Alma and Lureen,but we mustn't forget that both of them-specially Alma,a much more typical housewife depending on man-were a victims too of a situation they hadn't looked for and less still,wished...
The comparison is indeed quite apt, IMO. It is interesting to note that with Loreen, Jack was a bit more passive and allowed Loreen to do as she wished...
It is interesting how the sex scene(s) in BBM contrast sharply with the explicitness in Ang Lee's "Lust, Caution". I think that understatement was the byword here, and perhaps it worked best for a general audience watching an intimate relationship between 2 men...
What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. :)
Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:
"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."
(t)
Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. :c)
For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...
They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.
A lots of average moviegoer have problem even with these few scenes. To be honest I was under average moviegoer when I had watched the movie for the first time. But it so was easy to adjust! ::)
What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. :)
Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:
"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."
(t)
Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. :c)
For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...
They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.
What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. :)
Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:
"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."
(t)
Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. :c)
For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...
They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.
Its just this kind of moment, that would propel the movie to a totally different direction. If he said those words in the film, then what woud we talking about? How would it change for us? The ss in its simple way, was so much more explict than the movie.
Yes, homosexual love scenes are "different" to the public at large, but that is to say that it should be any different, correct? I don't want to say that it is a matter of "conditioning". It's more a question of good taste and subtlety -- certainly, these must have been important in Ang Lee's vision of the scenes.
In fact, maybe it is even not a good taste, because wee saw (almost ^-^) everything they did - sex act, kisses, hugs, tenderness, feelings between them....so maybe the reason why we didn't see more of it, is just what FlwrChild said - never enough time for their love, never enough... :\'(
Just to explain - when I said tenderness and feelings, I know that it has nothing to do with physical love, but for some viewers is also hard to accept it between two man. Anyway not less that a real physical contact. I know that it sounds strange, but it is that way.
I've always wondered if the love scenes were filmed more for the general (heterosexual) population. What I mean, I can't help but think of the book "Men are from mars, Woman are from Venus". We are talking about two men. no matter straight or gay, their men. Do we tend to look at this from that point of view of a hereto relationship? Will two men communicate verbally, or non verbally as a man and a woman. I think of the covers of romance novels, the woman laid out in the arms of a strong man looking down at her, rescuing her from some unknown danger. Remember movie picture of "Gone with the Wind", and then "Brokeback Mountain".
I don't know if I'm making sense, but how would the FNIT and the SNIT played if were a man and a woman, how would you interpert it. I was just wonering are we looking at it from our personal veiw point, or can we think out of the box, and really look at it from their point of veiw and what do you think it is.
I've always wondered if the love scenes were filmed more for the general (heterosexual) population. What I mean, I can't help but think of the book "Men are from mars, Woman are from Venus". We are talking about two men. no matter straight or gay, their men. Do we tend to look at this from that point of view of a hereto relationship? Will two men communicate verbally, or non verbally as a man and a woman. I think of the covers of romance novels, the woman laid out in the arms of a strong man looking down at her, rescuing her from some unknown danger. Remember movie picture of "Gone with the Wind", and then "Brokeback Mountain".
I don't know if I'm making sense, but how would the FNIT and the SNIT played if were a man and a woman, how would you interpert it. I was just wonering are we looking at it from our personal veiw point, or can we think out of the box, and really look at it from their point of veiw and what do you think it is.
I think it very possible that the general viewer was on the director's mind when he did these scenes. Had the SNIT and FNIT been done as heterosexual scenes, perhaps it would have been made with a little more explicitness in the details.
I don't think that a heterosexual FNIT and SNIT would be done in the manner that the sex in "Lust, Caution" was done. It would probably NOT be appropriate in a film such as BBM, where things were not openly spelled out.
I think also that Ang Lee took into account the average possible viewer of his movie and maybe asked to himself if they could be prepared enough as too see two men's sex with the explicitness of men-women sex in hetero movies.Being as it's BBM a work about love's greatness and with a non always verbal speech,IMO there're many others gay movies that show a more physical relationships,what's wasn't the intention here...It has been even counterproductive a greater explicitness in sex scenes,even more sex scenes by themselves; stereotypes has been in the first place when criticising the movie,and I think Ang had run away from stereotypes precisely from the very first moment.
FNIT (perhaps the most "explicit" of all the scenes) was done relatively quickly -- some "average" viewers perhaps didn't know what hit them until after the scene was over. And if they doubted in FNIT that it was all about love, then the more lyrical SNIT made sure to put any such doubt to rest.
And from the moment Ennis went inside the tent till the scene was over, there was no music at all which really helped with the "unknown" type atmosphere...
Very good observation! The absence of music made the mood quite unpredictable, adding to the overall tension and suspense... The mucis acted as a marker/indicator in the movie, and the absence marked crucial points where one is lost or in a dream state: such as FNIT and the scene showing Jack's murder.
Very good observation! The absence of music made the mood quite unpredictable, adding to the overall tension and suspense... The mucis acted as a marker/indicator in the movie, and the absence marked crucial points where one is lost or in a dream state: such as FNIT and the scene showing Jack's murder.
But SNIT had a well know sound of the Brokeback mountain theme showing us that what was happening during SNIT WAS Brokeback, that WAS Love we're talking about the whole movie. <^( And it sounded (t)
But SNIT had a well know sound of the Brokeback mountain theme showing us that what was happening during SNIT WAS Brokeback, that WAS Love we're talking about the whole movie. <^( And it sounded (t)
Hmm. I think this was becasue, like tpe said, to make the scene tense, and Ennis and Jack were tense and were also kind of confused and in such a hurry... But in the SNIT they understood their love... So we could "Hear" it <^(
Have I ever mentioned that I'd like a prolonged version of SNIT... something like 15-30 min...?? ;)
Maybe only 100 times... ;D
I don't know if I would change any of the sex scenes. Of course SNIT was not a sex scene to me. We watched a scene where these two really connected. The innocent passion of the scene far out shadowed anything sexual.
True indeed we know where SNIT was leading. For me I didn't need to see any more. My imagination completed the journey for me. lol Had we seen any additional footage BBM might have been given an NC-17 rating. ^-^
I guess at this point the film's rating doesn't matter. However had there been additional sex footage it might have limited the film's availability to the masses in the beginning. I would have hated to travel any further than what I did to see the film. I was already obsessed with the story by the time it hit the theaters. ;)
I don't know if I would change any of the sex scenes. Of course SNIT was not a sex scene to me. We watched a scene where these two really connected. The innocent passion of the scene far out shadowed anything sexual.
These movie ratings kind of irritate me. So many that are very violent only get R and much more explicit sex scenes between men & women get R. The fact that they had to be careful with the scenes showing 2 men in love is a shame.
Yes, this is what I implied in one of my previous posts: that the SNIT could be considered as NOT a sex scene. It depends on one's point of view, I guess. Or imagination....
Well, a number of them do tend to be arbitrary. And frankly, I would censure gore before I would a sex scene. It was easier for teens to watch "Hostel" than BBM! ;D
I guess it's one reason why I didn't need to see anymore. My imagination allowed me to picture what I wanted for the conclusion of SNIT.
OMG that's so true! ;D (Not in my case though!!) :)
I can't stand torture movies! But I do like horror movies ::)
I believe they should have another rating above R, not NC-17 but something inbetween for gory movies like House of Wax or
The Strangers (Which I LOVE ;D)
;D I certainly didn't mean to reference you in particular, BM.
I have mixed feeling about rating systems altogether. I think here in the US, they are too stringent on sex scenes and too lax on gore and violence.
;D I know
I agree with you tpe on the fact that they should cencor violence before sex :)
Yaaay. I said "Sex" #) :8 :8 (Yes, I know, Im very immature! ;D) LOL
I agree. Unless sex was somehow done with violence and gore. ;D
Woah! That's scary! *^) :i ;D
A lot of the "teeny-gory" movies try to do this, BTW. ;)
A lot of the "teeny-gory" movies try to do this, BTW. ;)
OMG that's so true! ;D (Not in my case though!!) :)
I can't stand torture movies! But I do like horror movies ::)
I believe they should have another rating above R, not NC-17 but something inbetween for gory movies like House of Wax or
The Strangers (Which I LOVE ;D)
And I personally think it is better this way. People differ on what they think is an ideal sex scene. Had they shown everything, it may have disappointed as many people as there are who liked what was shown. But the way they did it, everyone is free to insert in his/her mind the ideal scene according to personal taste.
Thanks friends.
I do think that the sex scnes in BBM are for a much more mature audience, not because they are explicit -- but because they conveyed much more than just the sex.
And yes, movies like the Friday the 13th series have a formulatic sameness about them. They seem to work for the target audience, nonetheless!
That's so true! And that is why these scenes are so influencing and deep, why they make us tremble each time.... much more than just the sex! O0
Thanks friends.
I do think that the sex scnes in BBM are for a much more mature audience, not because they are explicit -- but because they conveyed much more than just the sex.
And yes, movies like the Friday the 13th series have a formulatic sameness about them. They seem to work for the target audience, nonetheless!
I wanna watch Friday the 13th :) ;D ;D ;D
That's so true! And that is why these scenes are so influencing and deep, why they make us tremble each time.... much more than just the sex! O0
Exactly ˇ.Maybe if they have been more explicit,people would have been more prepared to watch it; as a matter of fact,it would have fallen into the denomination of "gay movies" more or less XXX...But not everybody is so prepared emotionally as to watch some real love scenes between two men,no matter how explicit they are...
%( ;D
These scenes much more erotic than sexy, if you get the distinction? For me, eroticism is much more delicious than outright explicitness...
These scenes much more erotic than sexy, if you get the distinction? For me, eroticism is much more delicious than outright explicitness...That's true ˇ.But,even in this case,not everybody is willing to watch them being between two same sex persons; for them,it's easier to watch porno.I think it made them feeling better than accept that there can be a real love between them...
That's true ˇ.But,even in this case,not everybody is willing to watch them being between two same sex persons; for them,it's easier to watch porno.I think it made them feeling better than accept that there can be a real love between them...
I get the distinction. For some people, raw sex is easier to deal with than raw emotion. For them, sentimentality is easy to dismiss with a laugh, but true feeling makes them uncomfortable. It's like the old rule of "don't kiss" in adult entertainment -- a rule that has more than just higiene for a reason.
Oooo This is getting R-rated! :clap: ;D ;D ;D
Exact¡ And I'd say that this happens the most with homosexual sex/love,and maybe more still with lesbian sex/love.It's easier for them to get excited with two girls making love than with two girls feeling love.This is easy,very easy to see,you don't have to understand anything; but coming to terms with same sex emotions and feelings is for them a further step they aren't willing to do.
Oooo This is getting R-rated! :clap: ;D ;D ;D
Exactˇ And I'd say that this happens the most with homosexual sex/love,and maybe more still with lesbian sex/love.It's easier for them to get excited with two girls making love than with two girls feeling love.This is easy,very easy to see,you don't have to understand anything; but coming to terms with same sex emotions and feelings is for them a further step they aren't willing to do.
Maybe the reason for guys is that - when 2 girls make love there's always a chance for them to jump in.
And when 2 girls love each other, they have no chance to get some...! Makes sense?
Maybe the reason for guys is that - when 2 girls make love there's always a chance for them to jump in.Yes,it makes sense...unluckily and disgustingly,but it does...
And when 2 girls love each other, they have no chance to get some...! Makes sense?
Sex (or the pleasure arising from it) is easier to fake than emotions. What makes the BBM "sexy" scenes different is that it's clearly not just about the sex. Since very little is really explicity revealed/shown, I would even say that (explicit) sex was not the major reason for the scenes being shown at all.
That's right. And for the viewers that's pretty much obvious, but for Ennis it became clear only in the end. So much love and tenderness they shared, but he thought that it was "a thing", a lust and pure sex. Wrong Ennis! WRONG! :(
Yikes do you think that he only saw their relationship like that? Lust and pure sex? OMG, I hope that he didn't think of their relationship like that! :(
Oh, maybe was too harsh on Ennisagain, but after the motel scene, when Jack proposed the sweet life to him, he said - If this thing grab all over us in the wrong place.... That was in my mind when I wrote that. He only knew that something uncontrollable is "holding them". It is only after the shirt scene when he understood that it was love! Until then he wasn't able to admit that he actually loved another man.
Damn! Again! :\'(
I do think you were onto something, no matter how sad it was to admit... I mean Ennis probably did think of it as something that was lust and so on... but like you said, until the shirt scene, and you can see this, when Ennis finds the shirts his face shows his realization and when I picture it, I get really emotional. If only it didn't take the shirts to see what Jack had for him, if only he had realized it...
That's right. And for the viewers that's pretty much obvious, but for Ennis it became clear only in the end. So much love and tenderness they shared, but he thought that it was "a thing", a lust and pure sex. Wrong Ennis! WRONG! :(Well, I think a part of him wanted to believe that, but that was just because he was afraid to face how he truly felt. Ennis I think didn't just look at it as sex from the beginning -- in spite of of his fears wanting him to dismiss his feelings and think of it as just sex.
Well, I think a part of him wanted to believe that, but that was just because he was afraid to face how he truly felt. Ennis I think didn't just look at it as sex from the beginning -- in spite of of his fears wanting him to dismiss his feelings and think of it as just sex.
Yes, tpe! You said it much better than I did -part of him wanted to believe that. But his POV of their relationship remains more or less undefined till the end - till the moment he asks Jr. -Does he love you? and then looks through the window floating away with his mind to Brokeback and to the one he loved. Just then it is clear that Ennis knows and accepts - he really and deeply loved Jack!
Until that moment his opinion about two of them is pretty unclear, don't you think?
I think the way he felt about Jack was clear to him. It's just that he was conditioned to think that it was wrong, and that hje couldn't accept that his own feelings and the conditioning could be at odds.
I also believe he knew he loved Jack and that Jack loved him too; but something inside him denied this,and made him believe it was wrong,something to hide and even,to keep away from him.If he hadn't loved Jack and if he hadn't known it,things had been easier and not so many "no" had been born from Ennis lips and mind,and also and mainly,from his heart...
You think that he knew that he loved Jack? And that Jack loved him?
That would be so comforting.... but I am not so sure... :-\\
I also believe he knew he loved Jack and that Jack loved him too; but something inside him denied this,and made him believe it was wrong,something to hide and even,to keep away from him.If he hadn't loved Jack and if he hadn't known it,things had been easier and not so many "no" had been born from Ennis lips and mind,and also and mainly,from his heart...
Well, I don't think he knew how much Jack loved him. But the attraction was pretty plain, and I am sure that Ennis initially took his own attraction for Jack as something that will pass, and not deep love.
But isn't it truth that just at the end he was fully aware of everything? I believe that had he known that it was love, deep, strong, everlasting... he would've take his chances no matter "whut"!!! I believe that in his mind things have never got clear until the end. :\'(
I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT). It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us. I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. <^(
I don't think he became fully aware of everything until he saw the shirts inside Jack's closet many years after. :(
I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT). It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us. I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. <^(
I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT). It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us. I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. <^(
I do too. When I saw Ennis just lay on Jack I was like "Awww", it was so romantic and I love it. I also agree that if they were more explicit we wouldn't have had the same effect. I like them how they are, although a little extra wouldn't have been bad in FNIT. SNIT though was perfect just how it was, lovely, romantic, and absolutely perfect. <^(
I don't think that I will ever be able to understand what in SNIT makes me crazy, but there's something about that scene, that is beyond magical. The awkwardness, shy Ennis, Jack's eyes and lust in him, development of Ennis's surrendering, tender kisses, yearning for love of both of them.... I really don't know. But it is very very special! <^(
I'd like to see a bit more though... ::)
I also think that no other love scene would ever come even close to this one regarding the effect that it had on me! :i ... and the surprisingly long time that the effect lasts... (t) (t) (t)
I agree.
Some people may in fact be turned off by explicitness. The beauty of the scene is that they found (IMO) the right balance between lyricism and passion. It is tantalizing to both the senses and to the heart.
And yes. It is magical.
I agree.
Some people may in fact be turned off by explicitness. The beauty of the scene is that they found (IMO) the right balance between lyricism and passion. It is tantalizing to both the senses and to the heart.And yes. It is magical.
I am sure that an empty explicitness would have a negative impact on me, and I know that cutting of the love scenes was meant to show how they never had enough time for sharing the love for each other. Even so, I'd prefer more of them, sharing tenderness or (as Rose said) dancing, or any moment they were truly close...
After BBM we remain hungry of Ennis and Jack together. That is surely a good effect for the director, but it is not easy for us/me.
Yes,I agree in that what makes BBM so compelling is this delicate balance between passion and tenderness;it's not,it mustn't be a simply effectiveness object to look for a completely different reactions and sensations in viewers.It must be,above all,a way to make us feel closer to their tragic and endless love,and a greater explicitness wouldn't get this exactly-or at least,with the same strength...-.
And I agree also with Loreen in that the way their love scenes are cut,almost always suddenly,must be a way to show that first,even in their happiest moments in the mountain,society rules and misunderstanding was always there,threatening their happiness-it's the case of Aguirre's spying them-,and second,that they had never had enough time to share good moments,because these rules and misunderstanding didn't allow them to,and all what they had-apart of BBM-was little pieces of happiness,as a humble and poor gift in their unlucky lives...
I am sure that an empty explicitness would have a negative impact on me, and I know that cutting of the love scenes was meant to show how they never had enough time for sharing the love for each other. Even so, I'd prefer more of them, sharing tenderness or (as Rose said) dancing, or any moment they were truly close...
After BBM we remain hungry of Ennis and Jack together. That is surely a good effect for the director, but it is not easy for us/me.
I just want to repost something I wrote for Loreen and got deleted when the forum had that big problem last week. ^f^
I really think that there were not more sex scenes filmed. Ang said in a very known interview that he knew that people probably would want more sex scenes but that he filmed only what we can see in the movie because he thought that filming more loving scenes would be abusing of his young actors: Heath and Jake.
As you know, Ang filmed SNIT only with his camera man, Heath and Jake there, because he knew that his actors had some issues with the intimate scenes; so he really thought that wanting his actors to film more sex was truly an abuse.
Also he wanted to show with the few sparse sex scenes that there was never enough time for our boys, and that with time they really became more buddies than lovers, what made Jack really frustrated with that couple of f*cks a year…Oh well, we had a long talk about this while back in this thread, about how at the end they looked like they really were fishing buddies….**sigh**
Also it’s true that Ang filmed lots of takes of all the loving scenes. But they were not different from each other. I mean, Heath and Jake didn’t have to do different things in every take, like kiss more in a take or touch more in another. They just filmed again and again the same scene doing the same things till Ang thought that he had enough material to choose the right take, the one he thought was the best and showed what he really wanted to convey.
Wonder if any scenes were "ad libbed"? The reason I ask...a long time ago either here or IHJ, someone said that Heath might have been telling Jake (basically in the reunion scene)-"okay, that's enough".
We also shouldn't forget other points brought up -- that it may have been easier on the actors not to dwell on the details of the sex, and it would be easier for a general audience to accept such restraint. And as I had also said, even the heterosexual sex scene between Jack and Lureen cused uneasiness on Anne's part, because in real life, she claimed to be not that sexually aggressive, and the character's behavior went against the grain of who she really was...
Heterosexual scenes anyway were a bit more explicit and longer... at least I think so... :s) Ann knew what to expect in the back seat of the car, when she accepted the role, so she had to be prepared for thatjoy.
Finally, I would definitely love to see more of E&J together, but Lee absolutely accomplished the effect of depicting their relationship in the terms of time lacking.
Never enough time, never enough....
Yes, the hetero scenes were more explicit, but still not as explicit as in Lee's "Lust, Caution" I would have traded any of them for more E&J scenes -- but I am biased, of course! ;)
In this case, we all are! :P ^-^
I think women here on the forum maybe even more than man... :d) :d) ;D
Don'r be so sure about it among the gay men. ;)
Well, I am not sure, but I know how we/I think, and it would be difficult to surpass that! :P ;D
You would be very surprised. ;D That's the most I can say here...
;D ;D :8 Can you say a little more, pleaseeeee! (:) (:) (:) ;D ;D ;D
Hm... to be persistent - you know that for ladies the pleasure of watching 2 men is double! :d) :d)
But, if you're talking strictly about explicitness, than... well, I give up! ;)
I almost forgot , I am a #) #) #)!
Yes, I better not go there. ;D Perhaps when we meet one of these days, we can talk about it. :P
I always felt that SNIT is too short. I really wish it was just a little longer, just 30 seconds to a minute longer. Just a tad bit more explicitness would be okay, as long as it showed it in a tender and romantic way. I love that scene, it is one of the most beautiful in the entire film, and it really shows that their intimacy with each other is making love, the sex is an expression of their true love and that passion and romance lasted all those years. So yeah, just make SNIT a bit longer, and maybe add a short, tender scene from one of their meetings in the subsequent years after their reunion, like the one where they were at Don Wroe's cabin would be nice. Other than that, there's not much else to add. And yes the passage of time showed how little time they had spent together over twenty years, but it definitely did not detract from their love or indicate that it had diminished into just a friendship. There was the couple of months on Brokeback Mountain the first summer, then two or three times a year they would meet for several days to a week for about 15-16 years. When you add it all up, the total time they must have spent together during all those years would be a few months shy of a year. That's why it's so heartbreaking at the end, in the last scene, when the passage of all that time really catches up to them, and they realize how much time they've lost in this life, time when they could have just been together from the first summer on, or at least from the reunion on. And they could have spent that time just being themselves, being who they are and living a life that suits them, a life of happiness and freedom that they deserve, instead of being in chains, feeling trapped and miserable as they pretended to be something they weren't, living the wrong life, only being alive for the few times a year they could be together. It's just too sad thinking about it. But over all that time, it's beautiful to see how their love remained so strong, and during their last trip, at the scene where Ennis has his arms around Jack while they are sleeping gives a glimpse of what their life would be like as they aged together. It always remained a deep, true, and powerful romantic love, just like any soulmates who go through the years together.
It's taking all I got at the moment to not just send a couple streams down my cheeks. Wow, you hit it with this one. :-\\ ^f^
Although scenes like the SNIT, the Reunion Kiss, and the (sexless) Dozy Embrace feel way too short, there is a timeless quality to them -- something that touches us and brands/imprints itself deeply into our psyche. That is the mark of great Art, IMO.
Although scenes like the SNIT, the Reunion Kiss, and the (sexless) Dozy Embrace feel way too short, there is a timeless quality to them -- something that touches us and brands/imprints itself deeply into our psyche. That is the mark of great Art, IMO.
I don't think that I will ever be able to understand what in SNIT makes me crazy, but there's something about that scene, that is beyond magical. The awkwardness, shy Ennis, Jack's eyes and lust in him, development of Ennis's surrendering, tender kisses, yearning for love of both of them.... I really don't know. But it is very very special! <^(
I'd like to see a bit more though... ::)
I also think that no other love scene would ever come even close to this one regarding the effect that it had on me! :i ... and the surprisingly long time that the effect lasts... (t) (t) (t)
True, but SNIT should have been just a little longer and I would have loved to see a scene from when they were at Don Wroe's cabin. I think it would have added to the movie. It wouldn't be long, just less than a minute for SNIT, and just maybe two or three minutes at Don Wroe's cabin. Also, the scene where they jump in the river. I would have loved for it to show them laughing and splashing each other in the water, that would be so cute. It would be beautiful to see more Ennis and Jack together, and not just sex/love scenes but also them just spending time together, those tender loving times when they either talked together or shared an amusing moment, or just felt comfort in being so close to each other. I really love that scene from one of their trips when they were riding horses side by side.
Although more of the tender/casual loving moments might defer from the impact of the black hole of an ending to the movie, I would so very much love to see them, lengthened, and a little more detailed. Don Roe's cabin would have been really nice. It's hard to not feel cheated by being given so few scenes like this. When it comes to SNIT, I personally could watch for hours straight. That plucks more of my heart strings than just about any scene I've seen in any movie. <^(
O0
I thought that I was going to faint when I saw it for the first time! (t)
Loreen, me too. My heart felt like it was in the pocket of my shirt (if I had a shirt with a pocket) just about ready to flop out like a fish onto the pavement! It put me back into a situation I had very similar with somejavascript:void(0);one. The whole outside world could have fallen completely away from the screen when I watched. It also stirred up leftover passion I would have loved to be demonstrating just how that scene was, right then and there. (t)
I was blown away. Had blood flowin to organs I don't even know existed for cryin' out loud. {b} ^f^
;D ;D ;D
The funny thing is that I never had such a crazy and passionate experience, but SNIT hit me so powerful that I couldn't believe it! I also felt some parts in myself that I never knew existed before... not necessarily the organs... maybe some fine tissues, or nerve endings or some strange fluids in me... :i :i :i
Ang Lee and the boys performed a true miracle there! (:* (:* (:*
Nothing will ever surpass it! (t)
I totally hear you. :)
Let's not get me started on wanting the deleted scenes/footage from SNIT :*( $)
There's a great paradox in BBM sex-scenes. They are undoubtedly perfect. Because of that - we want more of those sex scenes, we need more of that perfection... BUT... if there was more, would it be perfect? :-\\ :-\\ :-\\
Yet, I'd take that risk! :P
Yes,I think that Art with capital letters,the great Art you mention,is this one that makes us feel a great deal of sensations in few time,among other things...That one that gets to become one of our best memories in spite of its short lenght.And doubtless,these BBM scenes join these two conditions.However,I think that they're short on purpose,to remark how short is happinness time,how fast their time of freedom and love in BBM passed.
There's a great paradox in BBM sex-scenes. They are undoubtedly perfect. Because of that - we want more of those sex scenes, we need more of that perfection... BUT... if there was more, would it be perfect? :-\\ :-\\ :-\\
Yet, I'd take that risk! :P
True, but SNIT should have been just a little longer and I would have loved to see a scene from when they were at Don Wroe's cabin. I think it would have added to the movie. It wouldn't be long, just less than a minute for SNIT, and just maybe two or three minutes at Don Wroe's cabin. Also, the scene where they jump in the river. I would have loved for it to show them laughing and splashing each other in the water, that would be so cute. It would be beautiful to see more Ennis and Jack together, and not just sex/love scenes but also them just spending time together, those tender loving times when they either talked together or shared an amusing moment, or just felt comfort in being so close to each other. I really love that scene from one of their trips when they were riding horses side by side.
Very good point! As for myself, I don't know... I would certainly WANT some more, but am not so sure if more would lead to indigestion! :)
I am sure that the careful (almost stingy) dosage of the intimate scenes between the boys is one of the biggest reasons why we are always yearning for them, always crazy for them, and always hungry of their love! $)
Never enough Ennis and Jack, never enough! :m} :m} :m}
Do you think so? ??? Well,this is not like eating beans;I mean,we wouldn't take the risk of shouting "No more beans ˇ"...or "No more love scenes"ˇ I think not... >:D
:8 :8 :8
O0
And is it not true?...By the way and *o) Hello,Loreen ˇ :^^)
I am sure that the careful (almost stingy) dosage of the intimate scenes between the boys is one of the biggest reasons why we are always yearning for them, always crazy for them, and always hungry of their love! $)
Never enough Ennis and Jack, never enough! :m} :m} :m}
Do you think so? ??? Well,this is not like eating beans;I mean,we wouldn't take the risk of shouting "No more beans ˇ"...or "No more love scenes"ˇ I think not... >:D
I agree. It was certainly more effective than just overloading us with sensual scenes...
;D Well, I think that by not overloading us with such scenes certainly leaves a lot of room for our imaginations to run wild. :P #)
I'd like to be overloaded with their sensual scenes!!!! :P :P :P
::)
Loreen Twist ?...Loreen Nasty ˇ (^) :8
I'd like to be overloaded with their sensual scenes!!!! :P :P :P
::)
Yes,maybe this is also another of the reasons why we feel more attached to them...even if I repeat I'd erase the "No more..." from my dictionary in this caseˇ #)
The sex scenes between Alma and Ennis were much more explicit but well, no where near as provocative as the goings on between Jack and Ennis. I imagine sex got much more spicier for them as the years went on :d). It's gotta be that black cowboy hat... I can see Jack wearing that...only that.... Jack Nasty? Jack Naughty, maybe so. So what? Just sayin ,Jack seems like the kind of guy who'd make sex fun. :d:
OMG. The image of just the black cowboy hat is most intriguing.
And yes, I sort of envision Jack as less inhibited than Ennis. He would have probably led the way in the games of love.
;D You wicked girl! *SPANK!* #)
Well, just for the visual pleasure of it all... ;)
(t) Jack wearing ONLY his black cowboy hat ˇ...Do you want me to faint,at this hour of the afternoon?... :d) And yes,Jack had surely more experience and was rather less inhibited than Ennis.And surely much more imaginative in creating news ways of pleasure,why not?...Oh,better I shut up... :-X
Who said it's just for the visual pleasure? :*(
#) #) #)
(t) Jack wearing ONLY his black cowboy hat ˇ...Do you want me to faint,at this hour of the afternoon?... :d) And yes,Jack had surely more experience and was rather less inhibited than Ennis.And surely much more imaginative in creating news ways of pleasure,why not?...Oh,better I shut up... :-X
I guess the number and "intensity" of sex scenes is just the correct so that Annie's intention when writing like the one of Ang when shaping it into images was not weakened as much. It is not a film on sensations, rather on feelings and fight, the fight to live these feelings fully. More sexual scenes would have been a deceptive bait that would attract people more interested in feeling hot before some bodies than moved before a love.Another fairly different thing is that I believe that they must have been more scenes of pure and simple love when the personages are ageing.
I guess the number and "intensity" of sex scenes is just the correct so that Annie's intention when writing like the one of Ang when shaping it into images was not weakened as much. It is not a film on sensations, rather on feelings and fight, the fight to live these feelings fully. More sexual scenes would have been a deceptive bait that would attract people more interested in feeling hot before some bodies than moved before a love.Another fairly different thing is that I believe that they must have been more scenes of pure and simple love when the personages are ageing.
i pretty much think that the sex scenes were extreamly well done, i think they were used to convey different emotions at different stages for jack and ennis rather then make people aroused (not that they dont do that too ^-^)
I agree completely,Matt ˇ The intention of both the writer and the film maker was to denounce a situation that was not only the one of rural Wyoming in 60's or 70's,but that is repeated still nowdays-in spite of the great advances we have done these last years-.And it's better to denounce an unfair situation by dealing with feelings,even if among them there's also passion,than simply show something that will arouse our bodies,not our minds.Moreover,there're a lot of other movies made for arousing people,but not necessarily for making them think things over...
i pretty much think that the sex scenes were extreamly well done, i think they were used to convey different emotions at different stages for jack and ennis rather then make people aroused (not that they dont do that too ^-^)
Yeah,I suppose sex between Ennis and Alma was developing in a very traditional and even boring way,in a great part because I think Alma-even when she knew her husband´s affair-took it as a duty.This makes sense to why she didn´t say anything after she discovered Ennis and Jack kissing, and for a long time after,and why she kept on having sex with him quietly.She maybe thought somehow she could "recover" her husband by making what he liked;but I really believe that in her innest part of herself,she knew she couldn´t be the winner,neither in bed nor in others aspects of Ennis´life.
OMG, ainfooling, I have been waitin' for the collectors edition DVD, and you mean they don't have those "unseen takes"! :( I think we should start a petition to ask for ALL the takes. I would love to watch every take, bloopers and all. THAT would be an event for the Grand Convention! Watching the bloopers with the cast and crew. I can dream of heaven...
Thanks for the tips about the sound. I will report back on what I hear. O0
As for the dirt on Ennis' knees...don't tops get their knees dirty? The bottom would have dirt on their knees AND hands, or back...without getting more graphic and offensive... Don't texans drink coffee?
We definitely need more affection in the later years. All we really get in that last fishing scene is the tent scene with Ennis's arm around Jack. I'd like to see them, as the short story suggests, "rolling into the dirt" ;)
And we know that the actors had no problems with kissing each other, so even just one kiss in the later years wouldn't have been a problem, right? <^(
During the first sex scene in the tent I would have wanted to see more but it would be a porn and not a cinema beauty like this.You wanted it rough in the first encounter it makes it more hot and it was.Though in the motel scene I would have loved to see them kissing and taking some of there clothes off and then see them together in bed talking and holding each other.We all do know what happened at the cabin but I would have loved to see a bit of them being together there also.
You know the saying curiousity killed the cat.Well,not this cat.
I'd like to see more than a kiss at the motel... :PYes,I agree with you,Alleycat; as a matter of fact,I think I have told something similar in one of my former posts in this thread...This movie is not a porn made to arouse,but a beautiful piece of art made to think about intolerance and homophobia.There're a lot of movies whose main reason is excite people,but this doesn't mean that they make us use our brains and souls instead of other parts of our bodies. ^-^
Yes,I agree with you,Alleycat; as a matter of fact,I think I have told something similar in one of my former posts in this thread...This movie is not a porn made to arouse,but a beautiful piece of art made to think about intolerance and homophobia.There're a lot of movies whose main reason is excite people,but this doesn't mean that they make us use our brains and souls instead of other parts of our bodies. ^-^Hi MPJ... Over the years and seeing this film countless times, I first wanted to see more displays of affection later from E & J. But my take now is maybe Ang was wanting to show the effects of the homophobia and Ennis's fears as time went on and they were apart from each other and all that time for Ennis to worry about it. Ennis seemed to become more withdrawn into himself and his fears as time went by. Jack in turn became more resigned to his role but not ever accepting it totally as the lover who only got to see his love a few short times a year. I think Ang showed a little different perspective than Annie and both were wonderfully done. I would have had no problem with a little more conversation in the motel like in the ss. I would have enjoyed that I think more than physical interaction in that scene. But then again I think Ang may have been trying to put on the screen a more closed off Ennis and Heath did a masterful job at that character. BBM is truely a masterpiece.
However,I agree with you (specially with you,Kat Nasty ˇ ;D ) in that some more love ans passion proofs between them along the movie and not only in the beginning and the reunion times.There're none in the second part of the movie and this makes them look like a boring and bored wed couple,lol ˇ Love and passion can vary along the years,being calmer,but this doesn't mean it doesn't exists...And seeing a forty-years old Ennis and Jack making something else than arguing has been lovely too ˇ Or not? :d)
I'd like to see more than a kiss at the motel... :P